Quick I need help!!!

[hopeforamerica]

I'm in an email debate with my big brother. Poor guy thinks Mitt R. will keep him and his family safe. He likes Ron Paul, but thinks his foreign policy will get us all killed. Please give me some quick talking points that can be backed up. I'm terrible at this kind of thing!

He also want to know why we all hate Fox news. He thinks they are fair and balanced.

Also, any personal examples of your personal liberties being taken away? I'm mean you personally.

Thanks!! Maybe I can begin to wake up my otherwise intelligent brother.

[hopeforamerica]

No one can help? You guys are good at this stuff. Help a girl out;)

[nexalacer]

Check out my thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=16126) on a similar subject... you can use anything from my email near the bottom if it helps. As far as personal liberties, I'd mention the removal of habeas corpus since the Military Commissions Act, as well as the Democratic Congress approving Bush's wiretapping of American citizens. Romney will follow the same course as it's required by his Neo-Con buddies who are running the war in Iraq, the war on Terror, and the brand-new and improved War in Iran!

[ARealConservative]

the real angle on nationaal security is our deficit spending and how we must rely on regimes such as China and Saudi Arabia to loan us money.

You need to chip away at this notion that we are a super power that is invincible. Our spending is a great risk to our security.

I like to discuss how our foreign policy is uttlerly schizophrenic. It's a hodge podge of different views all wrapped together to form a policy that is directionless. You got bleeding hearts that feel it is our responsibility to use our enormous wealth to help other nations (while ignoring our near 10 trillion in debt). You have hawks that like to dream about turning deserts into glass parking lots. And you have more sensible people that see the real threat of radical islam and want to do something - anything - to fix the problem.

But ultimately, Our rule of law is based on individual liberty - not on policing the world, an dour foreign policy must reflect this fact. Naming some guy as "War Czar" doesn't change the foundation our country was based on. Borrowing money to make sure the poor in Africa isn't starving is no good either.

Some people like to trivialize our debt - comparing it to our GDP - and then laughing it off. This is a completely short sited way of thinking about things. First, our GDP is very much based on easy credit policies and living on credit. It can't last for ever - as the housing crunch is proving. Second - our GDP is very much based on our baby boomer population. At some point that generation will switch from being an asset to a liabiliity and when that happens and they learn that their social security is on thin ice the shat will really hit the fan. In essense, our gdp is extremely vulnerable and is foolish to use to right off our out of control debt.

Good luck - I can't convince my own brother and he describes himself as a libertarian leaning conservative for crying out loud. He spent too damn much time in the military and I can't break through the indoctrination.

[ARealConservative]

As for individual liberty - you can't fly in a plane without an ID - even though we have the right to travel freely within the country. I realize it is a minor thing - but minor things have a way to sno-ball on you.

Similar restrictions exist in the financial market. Banking, cash transactions, etc, etc. Those are restrictions on my individual liberties.

[hopeforamerica]

Okay, my husband beat you all to it!

Your brother's problem is where he is getting his information. How does
he know that Islamic radicals want to wipe us out? Because the media
tells him. He has no first-hand experience with this. How many muslims
does he know? The muslims I know are very nice people.

He is wrong that we haven't been there for centuries. We have been
entangled in Middle Eastern politics for the last 50 years. Ever since
the state of Israel was created really. The US Government is
responsible for an incredible array of overthrows, invasions, and
disturbances. See http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-159.html - Cato is an
extremely reputable conservative/libertarian organization.
Understanding this is a baseline to understanding Ron Paul's
noninterventionist philosophy.

Here are some more topical points:

* Iran does not threaten the United States. They have long-range
missile capability and no way to invade us. On the contrary, they are a
major economic supplier without which our country would be crippled.
They have not invaded anybody in 300 years.
* The majority of Iran's population is under 30, and they lean
towards western culture. If we were allowed to visit (by both
governments) we would probably have a wonderful vacation. If left
alone, they would eventually have their own revolution.
* Bin Laden has never been reported to be in Iran. Or Iraq. He's
in Afghanistan or Pakistan last anybody checked.
* Pakistan has nuclear capability and their USA-friendly dictator
is about to be ousted by Islamic radicals. Iran is not the problem.
* Everything, I mean EVERYTHING, that the administration has put
forth about why we need to bomb somebody has been proven FALSE. You'll
notice the Iranian nuclear threat has died down since it is all known to
be fantasy. Now they have designated the Ruplican Guard as a terrorist
organization. Now why would you believe anything from a group of people
that have been proven to be pathological liars for the last 7 years?
(good reference = www.bushlies.net).

[hopeforamerica]

Thanks for all of your replies!! My brother is just so sheltered in his views. I hope I can break through a little bit.

[susano]

Explain to him that for a fraction of the money spent in Iraq, all US troops could come home and protect THIS country. As him why Bush (who Romney supports) has gutted border patrol, his justice department has even PROSECUTED and IMPRISONED those who have done their jobs, our border is wide open, our soverignty threatened, but we secure Bagdad. Go on line, and order the DVD "Iraq for Sale" and show it to him. GET HIM TO WATCH LOU DOBBS EVERY NIGHT. Tell him that the world has over a billion Muslims, and the "war on terror" will have us at war FOREVER, all over the world - all while our own country is unprotected. Send him to Lew Rockwell's site to read what Ron Paul has to say. Tell him the US Constitution greated the best system of government known to man, and Romney does not support that document.

[RP4ME]

Check out my thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=16126) on a similar subject... you can use anything from my email near the bottom if it helps. As far as personal liberties, I'd mention the removal of habeas corpus since the Military Commissions Act, as well as the Democratic Congress approving Bush's wiretapping of American citizens. Romney will follow the same course as it's required by his Neo-Con buddies who are running the war in Iraq, the war on Terror, and the brand-new and improved War in Iran!

Send him te video on teh European Union that someone pisted on here.....he will see what no habeus corpus, potential marshall law could mean - evertime he heres teh word terrorists on Fox news tell him to insert his name or his familys name b/c they are Christian or Jewish or lavender in color.....

Then he might start thinking!

[hopeforamerica]

This is my brother's reply;

Never had first hand experience.

Lot's of 2nd hand experience. I watched as the twin towers went down.
Today's news is a thwarted attack in Germany, last weeks news was one in
Denmark. What about those arrested plotting to rampage Fort Dix, or the
other group wanting to blow up JFK airport? Lot's of examples of hate out
there, and I don't want to have a 1st hand experience.

Chances are very high that you know a Muslim. There are 1 Billion of them.
I'm just concerned about the fraction that have used the Quran (a Muslim's
Bible) to distort it's readings and teach the hate we see. If 99.5% of the
Muslim community are moderate and peaceful which may be a fair estimate (and
of course these are the ones we know) that still leave .5% that are
radicalized. That's 500,000 people on this planet that want to do us harm,
at a minimum, and it's not just Bin Laden.

I wish the troops could come home and this would all go away too. Bush has
admitted he underestimated the secretarian violence that followed Sadam's
overthrow. I'm sure he thought, as most did, that the Iraq's would
immediately embrace western values once Sadam was gone. But the Sunni's and
Shi'a have been at each other since around year 650 AD. Our half century of
presence there has done a lot, but there is still much to do. When you hear
that the Sunni's and Shi'a have joined together with our troops to root out
radical al-qaeda in Anbar Province (thought to be the worst of the insurgent
strongholds) it offers hope that peace can reign in the region.

As for Iran, it has been proven their government has been funding and
supplying the insurgency in Iraq so the idea they don't threaten the U.S. is
wrong. Their leaders are to blame, not their people. I agree with Mick
that if given the chance, Iranian's would adopt western values very quickly.
The economy in Iran is in the tank, and the natives are restless. The hope
is that they revolt, before Iran becomes nuclear capable. If it's fantasy,
why won't they let the U.N. inspect? Their President denies the holocaust
ever happened and said Israel should be wiped off the map. Pretty strong
words for a non-threatening country.

Pakistan is another whole ball of wax. Scary stuff, but leaving the area
will only embolden the radicals, not pacify them.

Assuming everything out of the Bush administration is a lie is a tough way
to live. This has been the battle cry of the left even though many agreed
with his actions when he took it. Because he and CONGRESS was handed faulty
information from a crippled CIA and they ALL had to act on that SAME
information by authorizing the war it would makes liars out of all of them.
(I know Paul didn't vote for it). But they had to act on what was available
at the time. Don't believe that Bush knew more than Congress, it doesn't
work that way.

The war is legal, it's been authorized by Congress because they continue to
fund it and the United Nations Security Council endorses it (even though
they're worthless). http://www.un.org/apps/sg/sgstats.asp?nid=2700

I hope hearing somebody else's view point helps with your leaning curve. I
get my information from many sources, radio, tv, internet. Unless you've
been to Iraq, kidnapped by extremists, or been to a radical mosque
(kidding), then these are the only sources you have available to shape your
opinions. And yes, I watch and listen to people I don't agree with like
Keith Oberman (in your video) just to get their perspective.

Yea, the important thing is that we feel safe and do what's best for our
family's and I hope yours is doing great!

Love ya,

[shadowhooch]

Well, for some anti Romney stuff.

Go to

RomneyFacts.com

I really don't see why ANYONE likes this guy.

[nexalacer]

Does your brother also suggest waging a war on fundamentalist Christians who want to do everything in their power to lead us towards Armageddon? That train of logic is so full of holes, it's sad to see people think that way.

[sickmint79]

there are attacks on liberty documented online, i don't understand why these people think it's not real unless it happens to them. an attack on one person's freedoms is an attack on us all. "oh he deserved x or he shouldn't have been doing y anyway" - the constitution was also written for everyone, not just criminals.

as far as fox, just show him "outfoxed" on google video.

[hopeforamerica]

I think he is just scared to death for his family. The media fear mongoring has worked with him. He is a brick wall. I hope I never have to say "I told you so" to him. He also is very financially ignorant. Doesn't get why the Federal Reserve is a bad thing. I think I'm moving on...... Love him, but don't think he'll get it for now. Thanks for all your help.

[Corydoras]

Send him Aravoth's "What we chose to ignore"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jl1VIhdpl4c

Tell him to research into NSPD-51.

[Shatterhand]

Sorry, I didn't read this whole thread. But it seems rather simple to me. 70% of the American public wants us to get out of Iraq and stop the war/nation building. There is no way that a hawkish republican candidate (mitt) will ever beat a democrat (hillary) in the next election with such a high public anti-war sentiment. The only republican who can beat Hillary is a republican who wants to stop the war and was against it from the beginning (Ron Paul). So, the real choice is between Ron and Hillary. :D