PDA

View Full Version : Ballot initiatives are stupid (survey)




heavenlyboy34
10-06-2008, 03:37 PM
Do any of you appreciate ballot initiatives? I don't.

1) They create a "micro direct democracy" within a republic, subverting legitimate constitutional authority and due process.

2) They are often written by corporations and special interests to aggrandize themselves, their pet projects, and the gov'ment.

Zippyjuan
10-06-2008, 03:50 PM
It is a process for people to participate in legislation. The proposals can be good or bad but the people get to decide what they want. You get good and bad laws (and with corporation influence) through the normal legislation process too.

In California I apreciate Proposition 7 which changed property tax laws. In many states, if your neighbor sells his house for more money than you paid for yours, your property taxes go up as a result- even if you have not sold your house and actually realized the gains of property values in your area. People who bought a house at a price they could afford many years ago now can find them losing their homes due to the property tax increases. Prop 7 prevents this by limiting how much property taxes can be increased in a year (two percent- resold homes go up to the value they are sold at). This is not something the legislature would probably have done.

heavenlyboy34
10-06-2008, 03:54 PM
It is a process for people to participate in legislation. The proposals can be good or bad but the people get to decide what they want. You get good and bad laws (and with corporation influence) through the normal legislation process too.


Yes, but that's what representatives, petitions for redress of grievances, etc. are for. Initiatives just seem rather unseemly...but I'm the suspicious type, ya know.

Fox McCloud
10-06-2008, 07:45 PM
In Ohio, there's a ballot initiative for universal healthcare (for all Ohio residents)...hopefully it won't get enough signatures to be on the ballot, and if it is on the ballot, hopefully it gets voted down.

if it goes through, and Obama manages to get his universal healthcare plan..yuck for Ohioans; increased taxes for the State universal healthcare and the Federal universal healthcare...talk about SUCK.

heavenlyboy34
10-06-2008, 07:50 PM
In Ohio, there's a ballot initiative for universal healthcare (for all Ohio residents)...hopefully it won't get enough signatures to be on the ballot, and if it is on the ballot, hopefully it gets voted down.

if it goes through, and Obama manages to get his universal healthcare plan..yuck for Ohioans; increased taxes for the State universal healthcare and the Federal universal healthcare...talk about SUCK.

Does the measure specify how it will be paid for? :confused:

Fox McCloud
10-06-2008, 07:58 PM
Does the measure specify how it will be paid for? :confused:

edit: I just checked, it's not something we get to vote on; it merely refers it to the legislature.

here's the rest of them: http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Ohio_2008_ballot_measures

I'm fairly sure Issue 5 will make it; they already have commercials for it up.

How it will be payed for:


• Up to 3.85% payroll tax paid by employers
• Up to 3% gross receipts tax paid by businesses
• 6.2% tax on individual compensation in excess of the Social Security tax cap
• 5% surtax on adjusted gross income over $200,000
• Funds from government sources

definition of gross receipts: Gross receipts are the total amounts the organization received from all sources during its annual accounting period, without subtracting any costs or expenses. (source is the IRS website).

I just love the "Funds from government sources" crap, as it leaves it extremely open ended.

Pericles
10-06-2008, 09:51 PM
Depends on the proposal.

If I lived in a state with initiative, I'd be going full out for can't vote - can't contribute. A candidate can only accept money from those eligible to vote for that candidate in the general election. Git rid of out of state and out of district contributions, and you fundamentally change the nature of campaigns.

noxagol
10-06-2008, 10:50 PM
Dumb. Unless they are a measure to get the government off our backs, its just a measure to steal from some to give to others.

heavenlyboy34
10-06-2008, 10:52 PM
edit: I just checked, it's not something we get to vote on; it merely refers it to the legislature.

here's the rest of them: http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Ohio_2008_ballot_measures

I'm fairly sure Issue 5 will make it; they already have commercials for it up.

How it will be payed for:



definition of gross receipts: Gross receipts are the total amounts the organization received from all sources during its annual accounting period, without subtracting any costs or expenses. (source is the IRS website).

I just love the "Funds from government sources" crap, as it leaves it extremely open ended.

Sounds silly. It would be better to just ask for donations, says I. (but I'm the laissez faire type, ya know)

heavenlyboy34
10-06-2008, 10:54 PM
Depends on the proposal.

If I lived in a state with initiative, I'd be going full out for can't vote - can't contribute. A candidate can only accept money from those eligible to vote for that candidate in the general election. Git rid of out of state and out of district contributions, and you fundamentally change the nature of campaigns.

Wouldn't that prevent RP money bombs that help keep him in office? :confused::eek::(

noxagol
10-06-2008, 10:55 PM
Wouldn't that prevent RP money bombs that help keep him in office? :confused::eek::(

Not for presidential race, since we can all vote for him.

heavenlyboy34
10-06-2008, 11:00 PM
Not for presidential race, since we can all vote for him.

Yes, but if you'll recall, RP ran for Congress at the same time, and during the last leg of the campaign,some money bomb efforts were used in the congressional race.

noxagol
10-07-2008, 10:22 AM
Yes, but if you'll recall, RP ran for Congress at the same time, and during the last leg of the campaign,some money bomb efforts were used in the congressional race.

Which were probably not needed, especially given his new found popularity. He has beat the machine in his district time and time and time again, even when his own party was endorsing the Democrat opponent lol.