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scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 08:37 AM
One idea a friend suggested to me the other day on this crisis was why dont we print our money with valuable inks.

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-7089091/Ink-jet-printing-for-high.html

http://www.mcgpaper.com/silgolmetinp.html

He said if you only put a 400 or 500th of an ounce of gold for instance into the paper then the dollar would really be worth a dollar. And for each domination of money larger than a dollar you only need to print a larger area on the bill with gold.

Doing this would minimize cost and waste as compared to legacy processes of minting. Also as gold, or other precious metals are bought up on the market this would inherently increase the value of the money held in banks and in the persons of the people since supply would diminish. Making everything they exchanged their work for at the time always become cheaper. This to him sounded like the smart way to do money.

When you think about this that would mean all paper bank holdings for money during this crash would have a minimal market value that the FED could not effect and would safe guard the floor of the economy from going to zero.

brandon
10-06-2008, 08:44 AM
Interesting idea.

Is there an economically feasible method of extracting the gold ink from paper?

scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 08:59 AM
recovery of gold on organic materials are used all the time...one of the big advantages of that being the case....

Good example would be the inkjet printheads themselves have gold on the contacts that has to be recovered.

ghengis86
10-06-2008, 09:03 AM
"Doing this would minimize cost and waste as compared to legacy processes of minting"

what if people just burned their dollars and recovered the gold? What would stop them from doing this? So would minting costs really decline?

Sounds like an interesting theory though

xtravar
10-06-2008, 09:05 AM
What about all the gold that would rub off through transactions with other people and the washing machine?

socialize_me
10-06-2008, 09:12 AM
Why would people burn their $1 bill to recover $1 worth of gold?? Honestly...if you want $1 worth of gold, how hard is it to use your $1 bill to buy $1 worth of gold?

If you burn all of your money, you recover exactly what you burnt, only the gold you have left over isn't an accepted currency. I can't put $500 worth of gold on the counter to pay for $500 worth of groceries. It's stupid to covert something that has the metal built into it to try and extract that to hopefully gain value. If $1 of gold is truly used in a $1 bill, then it's really no gain for you to burn the $1 bill. All you've done is destroyed your ability to purchase an item from a store and have accomplished nothing in the process.

Sandra
10-06-2008, 09:18 AM
Why would people burn their $1 bill to recover $1 worth of gold?? Honestly...if you want $1 worth of gold, how hard is it to use your $1 bill to buy $1 worth of gold?

If you burn all of your money, you recover exactly what you burnt, only the gold you have left over isn't an accepted currency. I can't put $500 worth of gold on the counter to pay for $500 worth of groceries. It's stupid to covert something that has the metal built into it to try and extract that to hopefully gain value. If $1 of gold is truly used in a $1 bill, then it's really no gain for you to burn the $1 bill. All you've done is destroyed your ability to purchase an item from a store and have accomplished nothing in the process.

Exactly! So there would be no decline in what the dollar bill is worth. It would always in just it's physical existance be worth 1.00 instead of .60.

werdd
10-06-2008, 09:20 AM
Interesting idea, brings a whole new light to backing our dollars with gold ;).

Join The Paul Side
10-06-2008, 09:26 AM
Sounds good. Tell Uncle Sam to Do it!

gilliganscorner
10-06-2008, 09:32 AM
Interesting. Could a private mint make the same fancy paper using the same valuable inks?

Would they be accepted into circulation?

How do we know our illustrious government wouldn't debase them in the future? i.e. how do we validate there is the required amount of gold in the paper?

werdd
10-06-2008, 09:34 AM
The only concern i have is if the ink or seal could be worn away, and the gold wasted...

They would have to "seal" the seal with some kind of plastic.

fr33domfightr
10-06-2008, 09:36 AM
At one time, one ounce of gold was worth $20. At that rate, we'd need 1/20 an ounce per dollar bill. Would a 20 dollar bill contain a full ounce of gold? Or were you thinking of the value of todays dollars??


FF

gilliganscorner
10-06-2008, 09:41 AM
It begs the question then, why do we need government to issue our money? So they can tax us to pay for their dogshit of the day? So they can siphon off our productivity?

Could a private mint issue their fancy paper with $1 of real gold in it? If gold is the only thing making the State's dollar valuable, it certainly could be argued that ANY piece of paper with the appropriate amount of gold embedded in it would carry the same value.

The State would not allow this. It would (a) limit the production of dollars (i.e. a gold standard), (b) point out to people that they do not have to use their dollars to settle accounts, and (c) make them accountable to the people in the sense they would have no mechanism to steal other than taxation. They would lose their ability to steal via inflation. They will not give up their monopoly on currency issuance and legal tender rules.

scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 09:48 AM
"Doing this would minimize cost and waste as compared to legacy processes of minting"

what if people just burned their dollars and recovered the gold? What would stop them from doing this? So would minting costs really decline?

Sounds like an interesting theory though

The key thing here is if this happens you go to the bank or method of exchange and turn this gold in and they give you new bills.

They send this gold back to the recovery center...problem solved.

scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 09:51 AM
What about all the gold that would rub off through transactions with other people and the washing machine?

There are sealants for waterproofing inks today...

Kodak has such a sealant that they use in making their inks permanent..even when you dip them over and over again in the water, agitate, etc...

Nothing would prevent money or anything for wear and tear in a physical nature though...coins suffer the same problem, chips, breaks, etc.

That is why you dont put a large amount into any bill and disperse it and seal it so that this happens.

Logically the money circulation has to be for reliability tracked to maintain the holdings of the precious metals in the media just like color permance and water fastness we have done in the printing markets for years.

scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 09:52 AM
Interesting idea, brings a whole new light to backing our dollars with gold ;).

i am a nanoscientist and inkjet scientist...we could do this starting tomorrow...equipment and process exist...and its time technology and the global economy line up and stop being used for exploitation

scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 09:57 AM
At one time, one ounce of gold was worth $20. At that rate, we'd need 1/20 an ounce per dollar bill. Would a 20 dollar bill contain a full ounce of gold? Or were you thinking of the value of todays dollars??


FF

As holding grow in the US, the market supply goes way down. Then the value goes way up and we would need much less gold like 1/100 an ounce.

Obviously the only question as you point out is where to set the minimal value line for the money?

Do we leave things open to fractionalization? I chose 1/400-1/500 ounce to give us a 2x range on the current value of gold per ounce. In case market supply ever grew.

But you would only need then 20/400 or 20/500 of an ounce to meet the 20 dollar model in that case and not one ounce on our current values.

But in time if gold goes from 800-900 dollars an ounce to 4000-6000 as schiff or some other economist has stated then our prices of foreign goods will drop to the floor.

gilliganscorner
10-06-2008, 09:58 AM
You would have to change your unit of currency.

A "dollar", "peso", "pound" etc etc are nothing more than arbitrary units of purchasing power. Those units have no weight and no measure and that is why fiat is so relative and "flexible" - usually at our loss.

Could we have our bills that have units of denomination like: milligram, gram, decagrams where the bills have the defined weight of gold in them?

If I had a few ounces of gold and was willing to invest in a printing press, could I print off bills to compete with yours? If the gold makes your bill good, it would make my bill good as well.

Could I print them and loan them out at interest? Hey, I could be a bank! If my bank failed, my bills in circulation would still be good, wouldn't they?

dannno
10-06-2008, 10:01 AM
what if people just burned their dollars and recovered the gold? What would stop them from doing this? So would minting costs really decline?


Let them. It's their "dollar" worth of gold. They can go and sell that gold for about a dollar, that's the whole idea.

scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 10:02 AM
if you want this contact your congressman today...

The prevision in the bailout bill that allows no holding by the banks necessitates that we move quickly to make this happen else anything, and i mean anything could cause a global crash of our economy...since nothing is backing anything since that bill was signed by the president.

gilliganscorner
10-06-2008, 10:03 AM
So who would issue the currency?

scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 10:06 AM
You would have to change your unit of currency.

A "dollar", "peso", "pound" etc etc are nothing more than arbitrary units of purchasing power. Those units have no weight and no measure and that is why fiat is so relative and "flexible" - usually at our loss.

Could we have our bills that have units of denomination like: milligram, gram, decagrams where the bills have the defined weight of gold in them?

If I had a few ounces of gold and was willing to invest in a printing press, could I print off bills to compete with yours? If the gold makes your bill good, it would make my bill good as well.

Could I print them and loan them out at interest? Hey, I could be a bank! If my bank failed, my bills in circulation would still be good, wouldn't they?

for barter ...yes always good as they should be since you bartered your work and value for this time.

Not sure why anyone in their right mind would try to counterfit printing gold :)

Very high margins to get off the ground. Making it very easy for anti counterfitting efforts to be prevented, gold is also very easy to detect in the media with sensor techologies.

But for legal and tender currency exchange it would still be counter fit if you print your own US dollars since this money would still have security tracking inks, etc. and only the US can regulate the commerce and coin money.

You wouldnt be able to keep up with the mint and they could change anything without you knowing it and catch you.

gilliganscorner
10-06-2008, 10:22 AM
for barter ...yes always good as they should be since you bartered your work and value for this time.

Not sure why anyone in their right mind would try to counterfit printing gold :)

Very high margins to get off the ground. Making it very easy for anti counterfitting efforts to be prevented, gold is also very easy to detect in the media with sensor techologies.

But for legal and tender currency exchange it would still be counter fit if you print your own US dollars since this money would still have security tracking inks, etc. and only the US can regulate the commerce and coin money.

You wouldnt be able to keep up with the mint and they could change anything without you knowing it and catch you.

Whoa.

I am not suggesting I counterfeit anything.

I am talking about printing my own bills with clearly defined weights of gold in them. I would come up with my own design and put correctly advertised amount of gold in them. Hell, I could even put on my bills, "Not legal tender." but STILL have the correct amount of gold in them.

If the embedded gold gives the State bills value, MY bills have value too.

fgd
10-06-2008, 10:27 AM
Gold is too malleable and will be rubbed out of the bills eventually, diminishing their value.

I think the proper solution is small gold bars encased in polymer, with a wire grid surrounding them leading to an RFID chip containing a PGP-signed message using the coining authority's key so the money can be authenticated against adulteration without being tracked.

gilliganscorner
10-06-2008, 10:29 AM
You need to understand what gives the Federal Reserve Point power:

1) It is backed by debt. Our debt. Nothing more. It is irredeemable as per design. Why? Because no limit can be set to prevent printing more of it.
2) It is backed by State violence against you. They State demands payment in taxes in it. You must work for Federal Reserve Points. No employer will pay you in anything else, as State violence forces employers to steal from you before you get your paycheck. Your employer is an uncompensated State collection Agent.
3) As a result of (1) and (2) the State can and will steal from you via the insidious inflation tax. They will NEVER give that up. What do you think American support for the war would be if the State had to raise the taxes of each family by 4-5000 thousand dollars per year to pay for it? Exactly. If they did try it, people would riot and torch State trolls.

If government produced money valued by gold content, eventually agorism (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1652039#post1652039) would take flight. And that is not. allowed. to. happen.

xtravar
10-06-2008, 10:40 AM
There are sealants for waterproofing inks today...

Kodak has such a sealant that they use in making their inks permanent..even when you dip them over and over again in the water, agitate, etc...

Nothing would prevent money or anything for wear and tear in a physical nature though...coins suffer the same problem, chips, breaks, etc.

That is why you dont put a large amount into any bill and disperse it and seal it so that this happens.

Logically the money circulation has to be for reliability tracked to maintain the holdings of the precious metals in the media just like color permance and water fastness we have done in the printing markets for years.

Wouldn't all of this sealing technology make a dollar bill as unwieldy to carry as, say, a slightly thick photograph? The government is constantly circulating in new dollars (and destroying old ones) because they get so scrunched and raggy.

I'm not opposed to the idea; I just think that it would involve the unfortunate risk of losing a lot of gold in random places. Gold isn't very valuable when you find trace amounts in your back jean pocket.

Rhys
10-06-2008, 10:40 AM
I have to ask... isn't this price fixing?

It seems to me, the only sound solution is Ron Paul's... we need competing currency. The problem of a sound currency would be solved, but scarcity would increase above the rate of value increasing, deflation. Deflation is not bad, don't get me wrong.... however, it seems that it could be as damaging as monetary inflation if... the deflation comes from hoarding rather than an increase in production.

If currencies were not issued by the government, but instead, private entities, your gold print would be very good. In fact, I'd like to start a company now that issues gold, silver, platinum and copper ink money. This way, as one gets hoarded, the other gains in popularity.

Any of you ever played an online role playing game? They always have three currencies, usually copper, silver and gold. In the early stages of the game, weapons and potions are scarce and hard to come by. The money is very valuable so you can buy stuff. By the end of the game, everything is plentiful and nobody even cares about money. This is because production has increased and deflation has come about through natural processes.

Ninja Homer
10-06-2008, 11:05 AM
One idea a friend suggested to me the other day on this crisis was why dont we print our money with valuable inks.

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-7089091/Ink-jet-printing-for-high.html

http://www.mcgpaper.com/silgolmetinp.html

He said if you only put a 400 or 500th of an ounce of gold for instance into the paper then the dollar would really be worth a dollar. And for each domination of money larger than a dollar you only need to print a larger area on the bill with gold.

Doing this would minimize cost and waste as compared to legacy processes of minting. Also as gold, or other precious metals are bought up on the market this would inherently increase the value of the money held in banks and in the persons of the people since supply would diminish. Making everything they exchanged their work for at the time always become cheaper. This to him sounded like the smart way to do money.

When you think about this that would mean all paper bank holdings for money during this crash would have a minimal market value that the FED could not effect and would safe guard the floor of the economy from going to zero.

hmmm... interesting idea. The only remaining concern I have after reading your answers to the other questions in this thread is how to keep people from scratching a little of the gold off each bill and then spending the bill. I'm sure there must be some way to prevent that, but I'm not sure what it would be.

For this to be a legal currency, it would have to be accepted by congress as a competing currency. I don't think it could replace the dollar right off the bat, because everybody would want to cash out into these dollars because the stuff in the bank isn't backed by gold, and there probably isn't enough gold to back it.

Something like this could be produced right now (without congressional approval), just not as "legal tender". It would be more for trade like Disney Dollars or gold and silver coins.

gilliganscorner
10-06-2008, 11:13 AM
We already have a competing currency: Gold and Silver Eagles.

A gold eagle is valued at $50.00 in Federal Reserve Points.
A silver eagle is valued at $1.00 in Federal Reserve Points.

Have a look at the story about the man who tried to use this competing currency:

http://www.liberty-watch.com/volume03/issue08/coverstory.php

jkr
10-06-2008, 11:20 AM
me likey

print it on hemp paper...

gilliganscorner
10-06-2008, 11:29 AM
Respectfullly, this thread is missing the point.

You are asking the State to help you implement a mechanism that severely limits the power of the State: The power to print money infinitely.

The State will not help you.

We need to develop trading networks using sound money (i.e. gold and silver) as the mechanism for settlement, outside of the taxation/inflation system a.k.a "the red market" we are all enslaved to. Google "Agorism".

Xenophage
10-06-2008, 12:44 PM
Its not necessary to circulate gold itself as the currency as long as the dollar can be converted to gold anyway.

jkr
10-06-2008, 12:46 PM
but it would give it intrinsic value, or at the least industrial value...hmm ive seen carbide steel engagement rings lately, tungsten, steels...anyone remeber dragon lance? gold was worthless, steel was the money.

jkr
10-06-2008, 01:56 PM
bUmp for an answer...

scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 07:32 PM
Wouldn't all of this sealing technology make a dollar bill as unwieldy to carry as, say, a slightly thick photograph? The government is constantly circulating in new dollars (and destroying old ones) because they get so scrunched and raggy.

I'm not opposed to the idea; I just think that it would involve the unfortunate risk of losing a lot of gold in random places. Gold isn't very valuable when you find trace amounts in your back jean pocket.

Doubtful that this cant be worked...key thing is the media printed in or on haveing value. Plastics, paper, and many things can be printed on and sealed in small regions. You could even embed in waxes so their is no easy way to touch these areas...so the gold wouldnt be going anywhere.

scandinaviany3
10-06-2008, 07:41 PM
Its not necessary to circulate gold itself as the currency as long as the dollar can be converted to gold anyway.

As long as you the individual do not have control, and all you have is something representative of the value, manipulation and control of the money supply will run amuck