PDA

View Full Version : What if we abolished the United States government on the fifth of November?




aspiringconstitutionalist
10-03-2008, 10:44 PM
EDIT: Please see this thread, now (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=161233)

Haha, it's late, I'm tired, and I just had a totally random thought. Maybe it's the long day at work that's gotten to me. Maybe it's the extreme frustration with my elected Representatives (all of whom voted for the bailout) and the government that just nonchalantly passed this bailout over the wishes of 90% of its people, and the feeling of hopelessness at attempting to influence or change or reform this government, let alone the Republican party. I'm just going to throw this out right now, really quick, because I know if I think about it too much, I'll probably wuss out and decide not to make this post.

The Declaration of Independence and many state constitutions (as another thread pointed out) declare that we the People have the right to abolish our government, if we see fit.

What if on this coming Fifth of November, we declared our intention to see the United States government abolished in one year (on November 5th, 2009), and then on the Fifth of November of 2009, we abolished it?

As libertarians, obviously, we don't believe in the initiation of aggression against person or property, but who says we HAVE to have violence and weapons to abolish this government? So, I'm not advocating violence, and I'm not necessarily advocating the destruction of a building (a la Guy Fawkes or V For Vendetta), but the day has such a significance, seeing as it will be the day immediately after McCain or Obama is elected, seeing as it is the day that one year previously launched the Ron Paul Revolution into reality, and seeing as it is a day that is associated both by history and by pop culture with revolution in government.

How much longer are we going to wait? How much more money is the state going to steal? How much more power is the state going to violate its own constitution and the will of its people to grab? Tell me, how many more lives do we allow the state to take and send off to die in a war of aggression? Where will this end? Where are we going to draw the line?

If the Founders could come visit us in our time and see where we are and see what our government has become. What would they say? I'm almost afraid they would chastise us for not having abolished this government yet. I'm afraid they would say, "Look at what you have allowed to grow! Look at how you let this beast steal from, control, imprison, and kill your fellow countrymen! And you've let it live like this for HOW LONG?"

I have the distinct feeling that if we could ask our Founders what course of action we should take concerning the government right now, they would come back resoundingly saying, "Abolish it, and suffer it not another day to live and thieve and murder."

We could, if we wanted to, give them a Fifth of November they would truly never, ever forget.







Proceed with the scathing responses and the labelling of this as a dumb idea and of me as one who is just trying to stir up trouble. I know what I'm getting into... Ha...

RonPaulwillWin
10-03-2008, 11:17 PM
Money bomb?

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-03-2008, 11:30 PM
Money bomb?

I mean, really the main reason the US government has power over us is because we let it. We respect it. We fear it. We worship it.

If on the Fifth of November of 2009, a huge amount of us came together, maybe in front of the White House, or the Capitol Building, or the Supreme Court, or all of the above, and just declared our independence from it, what could they do?

All we have to do to abolish its power is just not respect it anymore. Then, from there on out, when they tell us to give them money, or they tell us to behave in certain ways, their command just holds no more sway in our mind than the command of some Joe Blow from the street. They're just another human being, no more valuable or worthy of respect than any of us, who happens to be wearing a funny suit and who works in a goofy looking building.

All they have left is guns. What... Are they going to shoot us? That's their call.

Our Founders documented VERY WELL that this country was founded on the right of the People to abolish this government if they saw fit. Well, say we do see fit. So, let's abolish it. Let's gather all the people we can, go to Washington D.C. and dissolve it. If they want to stay in their old buildings and continue to make laws that they claim we have to abide by, then let them knock themselves out. We won't abide by them any more than the dictates of some random guy off the street. If they want to shoot at us, well, then no one on Earth will say we're in the wrong when we defend ourselves, our family, and our property. I don't want a violent revolutionary war against the government, but that's the government's call, not mine.

See what I'm saying...?

Spider-Man
10-03-2008, 11:31 PM
I'm not sure, but I think Joe Lie-berman passed some bill that says you don't have the right to do that anymore.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-03-2008, 11:31 PM
I'm not sure, but I think Joe Lie-berman passed some bill that says you don't have the right to do that anymore.

So?

The question is, would anyone else be willing to do this with me?

Knightskye
10-03-2008, 11:36 PM
Blow up Parliament! Err... the Capitol!

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-03-2008, 11:40 PM
Blow up Parliament! Err... the Capitol!

Haha...
Like I said in the OP, I'm not necessarily advocating the demolition of a building. Just enough people coming together in one place at one time to dissolve the government through regular and peaceful means.

The more I think about this, the less skeptical I am that this a "stupid idea."

How much longer are we going to wait? How much more money is the state going to steal? How much more power is the state going to violate its own constitution and the will of its people to grab? Tell me, how many more lives do we allow the state to take and send off to die in a war of aggression? Where will this end? Where are we going to draw the line?

bojo68
10-03-2008, 11:41 PM
So?

The question is, would anyone else be willing to do this with me?

Hahahaha, there are a number of people that have been doing it for years....:)
I think by definition the slave uprising deal's purpose is just that.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-03-2008, 11:42 PM
Hahahaha, there are a number of people that have been doing it for years....:)

I realize this. What I'm advocating, however, is something on a much larger and more poignant scale. Millions of people, in the same place, at the same time, with the same message. It's more symbolic and psychological than anything, but maybe it's the jolt we need to truly sever our bonds with this government.

Warrior_of_Freedom
10-03-2008, 11:43 PM
wow the gov is going to track you down and put you in prison for being a homegrown terrorist. Freedom? COMMIE ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST TERRORIST!

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-03-2008, 11:44 PM
wow the gov is going to track you down and put you in prison for being a homegrown terrorist. Freedom? COMMIE ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST TERRORIST!

If just a few of us advocate this, then quite possibly. But what if thousands, or even millions, of us did this? Will they put a whole chunk of their population in prison? Then what?

fj45lvr
10-03-2008, 11:51 PM
You should research out the power that a State County Sheriff has (it is greater than the feds if I remember correctly some legal cases).

Don't bother to try to protest the FEDS just LEAVE em....take your money out of BANKS, avoid paying as many taxes as you can and get "off the grid".

What is it that they demand of you now??? and if you believe you are being used as their SLAVE how do you cease being a slave??



Also the Declaration of Independence doesn't just say it is our "right"!!! It says it is "OUR DUTY"

bojo68
10-03-2008, 11:51 PM
Well, Myself the idea of getting a bunch of people corralled where they could be easily rounded up isn't my cup of tea. That aside though, it might be kinda interesting to ask somebody like Andrew Napolitano just exactly what the proper form would be for disbanding/divorcing the govt. would be. I'm thinking like a petition with so many representatives from so many areas?? Something like that, maybe similar to the requirements for a constitutional convention???
If it was done that way, and we fell short one way or another, there would be no excuse for the still in place govt to abuse those having took part, because it was all legal. That in and of itself should make it easier for us to get the crowds needed.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-03-2008, 11:53 PM
You should research out the power that a State County Sheriff has (it is greater than the feds if I remember correctly some legal cases).

Don't bother to try to protest the FEDS just LEAVE em....take your money out of BANKS, avoid paying as many taxes as you can and get "off the grid".

What is it that they demand of you now??? and if you believe you are being used as their SLAVE how do you cease being a slave??



Also the Declaration of Independence doesn't just say it is our "right"!!! It says it is "OUR DUTY"

I agree: however what I'm advocating is this very thing, but on a massive and sudden scale. Millions of people in one place, at one time, with one message. Is there anyone who would join me in this on the Fifth of November of 2009? Because it'd be a waste of time to do this alone.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-03-2008, 11:55 PM
Well, Myself the idea of getting a bunch of people corralled where they could be easily rounded up isn't my cup of tea. That aside though, it might be kinda interesting to ask somebody like Andrew Napolitano just exactly what the proper form would be for disbanding/divorcing the govt. would be. I'm thinking like a petition with so many representatives from so many areas?? Something like that, maybe similar to the requirements for a constitutional convention???
If it was done that way, and we fell short one way or another, there would be no excuse for the still in place govt to abuse those having took part, because it was all legal. That in and of itself should make it easier for us to get the crowds needed.

That sounds like a smart idea. And maybe November 5th, 2008 could be the starting point for that process, culminating in the final severance of bonds on November 5th, 2009...?

To be honest, I don't think I can do just another petition. I've signed so many petitions, made so many calls, cast so many votes, and nothing. A formal petition would be very good, but only if coupled with a massive and sudden action of many, many people together at once, on a single day in a symbolic location.

ClockwiseSpark
10-03-2008, 11:58 PM
So?

The question is, would anyone else be willing to do this with me?

All across the nation. I had planned on this already. I'll be marching on my capitol with my white armband.


www.slaveuprising.com

bojo68
10-03-2008, 11:59 PM
That sounds like a smart idea. And maybe November 5th, 2008 could be the starting point for that process, culminating in the final severance of bonds on November 5th, 2009...?

To be honest, I don't think I can do just another petition. I've signed so many petitions, made so many calls, cast so many votes, and nothing. A formal petition would be very good, but only if coupled with a massive and sudden action of many, many people together at once, on a single day in a symbolic location.

5th of November sounds good to me if we can brew up something that will work that fast, and to use the blind hatred they've generated we should. Sounds like maybe one of us needs to see if we can get Andrew's opinion...:)

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 12:00 AM
All across the nation. I had planned on this already. I'll be marching on my capitol with my white armband.


www.slaveuprising.com

Is there any way Adam Kokesh and the other folks at Slave Uprising would be willing to set an exact day to start the process and an exact day to break our ties with the government? I'm so tired of wishy washy "we'll just have to keep educating the American people," and "only when everyone else is already doing it will I join it," and "it'll be a long process of indefinite timespan."

I say we set a date, preferably with a one year intermission for preparation, then go to the Capitol on that same date the next year, and get it done with.

ClockwiseSpark
10-04-2008, 12:06 AM
Is there any way Adam Kokesh and the other folks at Slave Uprising would be willing to set an exact day to start the process and an exact day to break our ties with the government? I'm so tired of wishy washy "we'll just have to keep educating the American people," and "only when everyone else is already doing it will I join it," and "it'll be a long process of indefinite timespan."

I say we set a date, preferably with a one year intermission for preparation, then go to the Capitol on that same date the next year, and get it done with.

I hear ya, but it's not as easy as it may sound. I'm doing what I can and if any of it pays off you can be certain everyone here will be the first to hear of it.

tpreitzel
10-04-2008, 12:08 AM
Is there any way Adam Kokesh and the other folks at Slave Uprising would be willing to set an exact day to start the process and an exact day to break our ties with the government? I'm so tired of wishy washy "we'll just have to keep educating the American people," and "only when everyone else is already doing it will I join it," and "it'll be a long process of indefinite timespan."

I say we set a date, preferably with a one year intermission for preparation, then go to the Capitol on that same date the next year, and get it done with.

As I've noted elsewhere, we're all getting tired of this run around from the dog and pony show known as government. We want action and we're going to get it one way or the other! Congress has drastically misread the tolerance level of the American people with their corruption. I need sleep before answering in more depth. I'm liable to say something that I regret.

bojo68
10-04-2008, 12:13 AM
I'm so tired of wishy washy "we'll just have to keep educating the American people," and "only when everyone else is already doing it will I join it," and "it'll be a long process of indefinite timespan."

I say we set a date, preferably with a one year intermission for preparation, then go to the Capitol on that same date the next year, and get it done with.

I hear ya there, I'm thinking that it need not be a year, it'd be nice to get it done by the end of the year, make for a clean break on taxes no longer paid...:) Not only that, it would be a way people could rub washington and wall street's nose in their own manure.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 12:15 AM
I'm so tired of wishy washy "we'll just have to keep educating the American people," and "only when everyone else is already doing it will I join it," and "it'll be a long process of indefinite timespan."

I say we set a date, preferably with a one year intermission for preparation, then go to the Capitol on that same date the next year, and get it done with.

I hear ya there, I'm thinking that it need not be a year, it'd be nice to get it done by the end of the year, make for a clean break on taxes no longer paid...:) Not only that, it would be a way people could rub washington and wall street's nose in their own manure.

I'm not sure we could really do something of this scale by the end of 2008. I mean, the winter is coming up, the holidays are coming up, people are going to be harder to get together, a lot of us have plans and commitments made for the near future. I think a year's notice might be short enough but long enough to have the maximum positive effect...

bojo68
10-04-2008, 12:22 AM
I'm not sure we could really do something of this scale by the end of 2008. I mean, the winter is coming up, the holidays are coming up, people are going to be harder to get together, a lot of us have plans and commitments made for the near future. I think a year's notice might be short enough but long enough to have the maximum positive effect...

Alot depends on what Andrew says to me, we may not have to get together. Be fun if it could be done with a simple petition...:)

Warrior_of_Freedom
10-04-2008, 12:24 AM
If just a few of us advocate this, then quite possibly. But what if thousands, or even millions, of us did this? Will they put a whole chunk of their population in prison? Then what?

What do you think the concentration camps are for?

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 12:29 AM
What do you think the concentration camps are for?

The government putting several million Americans into concentration camps for simply going to Washington DC, standing up, and non-violently saying, "I sever all bonds from you" or "By the authority guaranteed to us by the Declaration of Independence, we hereby abolish thee," would be the greatest thing that could happen for that movement. Because those several million Americans would be several million brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, cousins, friends, co-workers... Something like that would expose our government for the tyranny it is, and incite almost every other American to do likewise.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 12:53 AM
Alot depends on what Andrew says to me, we may not have to get together. Be fun if it could be done with a simple petition...:)

My feelings on the matter are pretty well summed up by Patrick Henry:


"And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight!"

I'm leaving out Mr. Henry's last line ("An appeal to arms") at this point, because I think all of us agree that initiation of aggression against another person is something we should meticulously avoid. However, the spirit of Mr. Henry's sentiments is exactly the same.

Cleaner44
10-04-2008, 01:01 AM
Abolish the federal government, all states are still sovereign...

I agree that petitions are a waste of time. The government has proven that that do not respect the will of the people they are supposed to represent.

Today though people are so far removed from the ideas that our founding fathers started. The Constitution means nothing to the majority. They can't imagine not having big daddy govt there to take care of them. Even most Republican voters are socialists.

What to do... secede from the union? Hmmmm...

I hereby declare that I no longer recognize the authority the the Federal Govt. :)

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 01:04 AM
Abolish the federal government, all states are still sovereign...

I agree that petitions are a waste of time. The government has proven that that do not respect the will of the people they are supposed to represent.

Today though people are so far removed from the ideas that our founding fathers started. The Constitution means nothing to the majority. They can't imagine not having big daddy govt there to take care of them. Even most Republican voters are socialists.

What to do... secede from the union? Hmmmm...

I hereby declare that I no longer recognize the authority the the Federal Govt. :)

Can we get millions of people like you and I to come together in one place, at one time, and say that very thing, at once? A trickle of people doing this at various times will be nothing more than a mist or a sprinkle. All of us doing it at once, in one location, will be like a huge shot from a high pressure hose or the bursting of a dam.

MelissaCato
10-04-2008, 01:08 AM
Why don't we just declare war like John Adams did ? Is there such a process ? :eek:

fj45lvr
10-04-2008, 01:09 AM
I just don't get your idea of having a mass amount of people (probably a small mass at that) show up for another "protest".

What's the point?? It would be much better to have the people just IGNORE the FEDS and do the things necessary to "sever" the ties to them and their MASTERS (that would do much more harm than people showing up somewhere in a MOB).

But think about it...at the end of the day the people in a MOB have to continue on likely spending Federal Reserve Notes, banking, working, paying scores of taxes, etc. and etc.------so what's the POINT??? (maybe it would help out some stores and motels in the area and give them a financial "bump"??).

a "get together" sounds more like a seventies "encounter group" function/social more than anything else.

Now if you're talking about people PHYSICALLY moving permanently to an area and then TAKING CONTROL of the local and State Gov. then that sounds FANTASTIC because it is a CONTROL thing.

Ask the Chinese demonstrators how it turned out for them in tianamen square....what did that do for anyone?? Now if they would have actually overthrown the tanks and booted the party leaders out on their heads then they could have something like Washington, Adams, Jefferson, etc. and etc. Instead they just hung out and got their asses kicked.

Cleaner44
10-04-2008, 01:10 AM
Can we get millions of people like you and I to come together in one place, at one time, and say that very thing, at once? A trickle of people doing this at various times will be nothing more than a mist. All of us doing it at once, in one location, will be like a huge shot from a high pressure hose.

Most likely the majority would just cling to the govt and demand we be removed. They are fearful. Most likely we would just have to leave and let them go down with the ship.

Did you ever see The Poseidon Adventure (1972)? A few decide to live, while most listen to the idiot authority figure. He tells them to stay and wait to be rescued and our course they die.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 01:15 AM
I just don't get your idea of having a mass amount of people (probably a small mass at that) show up for another "protest".

The point is, that it would NOT be "just another protest." We would be dissolving the United States federal government, not protesting.


What's the point?? It would be much better to have the people just IGNORE the FEDS and do the things necessary to "sever" the ties to them and their MASTERS (that would do much more harm than people showing up somewhere in a MOB).

But think about it...at the end of the day the people in a MOB have to continue on likely spending Federal Reserve Notes, banking, working, paying scores of taxes, etc. and etc.------so what's the POINT??? (maybe it would help out some stores and motels in the area and give them a financial "bump"??).

a "get together" sounds more like a seventies "encounter group" function/social more than anything else.

Like I said in an earlier post, people just randomly doing this over a long period of time will be nothing more than a mist or sprinkle to the feds. Everyone doing it at once, assertively, preferably in one place, would be like the bursting of a dam or a high pressure hose shot.


Now if you're talking about people PHYSICALLY moving permanently to an area and then TAKING CONTROL of the local and State Gov. then that sounds FANTASTIC because it is a CONTROL thing.

That could be a good idea, but that and the idea I proposed are not mutually exclusive.


Ask the Chinese demonstrators how it turned out for them in tianamen square....what did that do for anyone?? Now if they would have actually overthrown the tanks and booted the party leaders out on their heads then they could have something like Washington, Adams, Jefferson, etc. and etc. Instead they just hung out and got their asses kicked.

Well, actually, that's not what Tiananmen Square was about at all. They weren't trying to overthrow the government. It started out as a mourning ceremony for a deceased leader, then it became a petition to the government, then it became a cacaphony of all kinds of different things happening at once, but it definitely was not a unified attempt to dissolve the Chinese government as the plan I'm proposing would be.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 01:17 AM
Most likely the majority would just cling to the govt and demand we be removed. They are fearful. Most likely we would just have to leave and let them go down with the ship.

Did you ever see The Poseidon Adventure (1972)? A few decide to live, while most listen to the idiot authority figure. He tells them to stay and wait to be rescued and our course they die.

That's possible, but we'll never know unless we try. What ELSE are we going to do at this point? More petitions? More campaigns? More politicking? More phone calls? I think this bailout fiasco is the final straw--we've seen how meaningless the concept of "representation" is in government. It's not working.

We need to just end it. End the government (without compromising our principles of non-initiation of aggression, of course).

And the most effective way to do that, is to do it together.

Cleaner44
10-04-2008, 01:22 AM
That's possible, but we'll never know unless we try. What ELSE are we going to do at this point? More petitions? More campaigns? More politicking? More phone calls? I think this bailout fiasco is the final straw--we've seen how meaningless the concept of "representation" is in government. It's not working.

We need to just end it. End the government (without compromising our principles of non-initiation of aggression, of course).

And the most effective way to do that, is to do it together.

You may be right.

I have been hoping that the Republican party will be destroyed in this election and that the Neocons' time will be over. After that we can rebuild the party in Ron Paul's image.

There may not be time for that though...

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 01:28 AM
You may be right.

I have been hoping that the Republican party will be destroyed in this election and that the Neocons' time will be over. After that we can rebuild the party in Ron Paul's image.

There may not be time for that though...

As much as I would LOVE for that to happen... I'm just not seeing it play out realistically... I'd love to be proved wrong, but...

If the Founders could come visit us in our time and see where we are and see what our government has become. What would they say? I'm almost afraid they would chastise us for not having abolished this government yet. I'm afraid they would say, "Look at what you have allowed to grow! Look at how you let this beast steal from, control, imprison, and kill your fellow countrymen! And you've let it live like this for HOW LONG?"

I have the distinct feeling that if we could ask our Founders what course of action we should take concerning the government right now, they would come back resoundingly saying, "Abolish it, and suffer it not another day to live and thieve and murder."

fj45lvr
10-04-2008, 01:30 AM
It's great you posted Patrick Henry's speech as it intent has NEVER rang more true than today with the EVIL we face and corruption at the highest ranks of the Federal gov.

Some others have already filed "redress of grievances" with the FEDS:


http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/InfoCenter.htm

If you want to FIGHT the processes have to come together to be able to make the fight one that has a chance to be successful to accomplish the goal of LIBERTY (a very difficult task to plan and be able to trust others involved in planning).

Join a militia group or start one so that you can be networking with others to protect yourself and learn and be instructed in the very BASIC elements that would have to be employed. Become proficient with weaponry and get supplied.

Patrick Henry was undoubtedly in a different situation (the tyrrants were foreigners, the citizenry were nearly equals in fighting equiptment, and they were basically seeing the british "move in" on them where they either had to fight or run (if they weren't going to kneel down).

What do you see as a correlation to today with the corruption we face?? Today we are dealing with something completely different where the Fed. government is full of traitors and "owned" by the moneytrust.

Ex Post Facto
10-04-2008, 01:31 AM
I see it like this. I hear what you guys are saying but the best way to do it is as follows:

EDUCATE...not through text book or anything but through messages. People want to know what is going on but let them find it on their own. Then help them connect the dots. What I mean is do random stuff that makes people think, and explore. Take out adds in the paper and have it just quote Thomas Jefferson, or someone about how dangerous central banks are. Let the people read it. Latter on when you are having a conversation or they are having a conversation that idea is already in their head. You are one step closer to getting your point across once you talk with them.

Do everything within the laws until they make laws that prevent you. The goal is to change the country for the better not destroy it. I love my country. I just want it back.

I also think the slaveuprising thing is a great idea. When we commit to wearing the band we will see how many of us there are. That truely will be a statement. Hell, we might even create a fad.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 01:34 AM
I see it like this. I hear what you guys are saying but the best way to do it is as follows:

EDUCATE...not through text book or anything but through messages. People want to know what is going on but let them find it on their own. Then help them connect the dots. What I mean is do random stuff that makes people think, and explore. Take out adds in the paper and have it just quote Thomas Jefferson, or someone about how dangerous central banks are. Let the people read it. Latter on when you are having a conversation or they are having a conversation that idea is already in their head. You are one step closer to getting your point across once you talk with them.

Do everything within the laws until they make laws that prevent you. The goal is to change the country for the better not destroy it. I love my country. I just want it back.

I think it only shows how thoroughly the government has indoctrinated its subjects when we can't fathom destroying the federal bureaucracy without destroying our "country." We can have our country back, when we drive out the thieves.

We can and will educate, but there comes a point where we are educating others to resist tyranny, but tyranny goes no farther away. We and our intellectual predecessors have been "educating" for how long now?

I say we stop the theft and murder now. The buck stops here.

Cleaner44
10-04-2008, 01:35 AM
I think we will see something evolve from the people because many more are seeing the reality of our slavery. I think I need to sleep on this.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-04-2008, 01:37 AM
I think we will see something evolve from the people because many more are seeing the reality of our slavery. I think I need to sleep on this.

I should probably sleep on it too. It's late. I'm tired. Maybe I'm just over-frustrated. But I feel like I came to a place tonight where the solution all of us have been agonizing over and striving for has been made perfectly (and a bit frighteningly) clear.

...Yeah...Sleep.

fj45lvr
10-04-2008, 01:55 AM
I think it only shows how thoroughly the government has indoctrinated its subjects when we can't fathom destroying the federal bureaucracy without destroying our "country." We can have our country back, when we drive out the thieves.
.


EXACTLY... the "confederation" of sovereign states has Turned out to be a COMPLETE BUST and has outlived the purpose it was intended for...and MORE importantly has turned out to be a DESTROYER of LIBERTY.

having 50 seperate nation-states would be so much better because there would be COMPETITION in governance and you can let your feet do the walking (as you can now if you want to leave and live somewhere else in the world).

I do agree whole heartedly with the basic tenant that the Government (the federal in our case) won't support LIBERTY unless there is real and profound FEAR of the people....right now they have ZERO fear of the people.....I can hardly think of anything that has been done recently but maybe there has been??? Can anyone think of something that the people have done to create fear in the gov?? As the old quote states when the people fear the government there is Tyranny (obviously that is true right now).


Obviously the Congress was AFRAID of what Paulson and Co. were telling them to perpetuate this immoral theft and make him the LEAD terrorist.

pilby
10-04-2008, 02:35 AM
i've thought quite a bit about this. i think that at this point there are not nearly enough people nearly angry enough. most people will stick with the govt for "security" sake.

but what about this - who says governments have to operate in mutually exclusive physical territories? why couldn't we just individually secede from the current US federal government and form a separate, parallel entity that defines our citizenship? a separate government overseeing separate people in the same physical space. we could continue living where we do and just say to the US government - "you're not the boss of me! i'm a citizen of... <whatever we call it>"

of course governments are very jealous of control and i'm convinced the only way to be free is to be willing to fight and die for it. but practically speaking, are there really any solid reasons why you couldn't have two nations that occupied the same physical territory?

hillertexas
10-04-2008, 03:02 AM
...

gilliganscorner
10-04-2008, 05:19 AM
That's possible, but we'll never know unless we try. What ELSE are we going to do at this point? More petitions? More campaigns? More politicking? More phone calls? I think this bailout fiasco is the final straw--we've seen how meaningless the concept of "representation" is in government. It's not working.

We need to just end it. End the government (without compromising our principles of non-initiation of aggression, of course).

And the most effective way to do that, is to do it together.

Aspiring,

There is something you can do. With each other. The fallacy with what we have been doing (and please do not take this as minimizing the entire movement) is we have been asking the State for help with implementing control on the State.

Have a look at this thread. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=153542) Let me know what you think.

There is no reason you cannot do both.

afmatt
10-04-2008, 06:22 AM
I have been seeing more and more people here on the forums that
want to talk about "removing the government" and potential actions
that would have to lead to violence to get the end result they
want. I think we all want want this to be peaceful. But if you
think that the Federal government would just sit back and let
us walk into Washington and take over you have another think
coming...

Right now we are stuck in a weird time - many folks in the movement
have reached a point where they feel they can't take this anymore.
They want to ACT and ACT now. The thing that most of them are
painfully aware of is that right now they are the minority.
That is a painful realization to come to but it is the truth,
and while we still are the minority we cannot make any of these
type of sweeping changes.

Marches on Washington? Huge protests?
NO
Now is not the time to be using our efforts to gather together
to scream at our government - they have proved these past few
days that they do not care. Now is the time for you to get out
from behind your computer and go talk to your neighbors, get
them as angry as you. Right now outreach is pretty much the only
option available to us. We must either become very good at
spreading the word or we will not prevail on Nov 5th or any
other day.

powerofreason
10-04-2008, 06:31 AM
I've been thinking a lot about how the American Revolution grew, and how it became mainstream. First of all, I'd just like to say the shit they rebelled over was nothing compared to the shit we put up with today. And yes, most folks back then were too timid to do anything, just like today. What we need is some type of event that will make people sympathize with us. And then exploit it. Thats what happened with the Boston Massacre. It was essentially mostly the colonists fault they got shot but it made people angry and sympathetic to the rebel cause.

fj45lvr
10-04-2008, 07:08 AM
I have been seeing more and more people here on the forums that
want to talk about "removing the government" and potential actions
that would have to lead to violence to get the end result they
want. I think we all want want this to be peaceful. But if you
think that the Federal government would just sit back and let
us walk into Washington and take over you have another think
coming...

Well, for one thing I think it is VERY encouraging that there are a small minority that want to "remove the government".....we know the current "uni-party" are warmongers and thieves so that shows that some people are GROUNDED and are seeing clearly what those that wrote the Declaration of Independence saw as to our DUTY and RIGHT to deal with the CURRENT MINORITY that is perpetuating these destructions. (they are also a MINORITY and probably even more so than we are, their only caveat is that they, like the Wizard of OZ, are at the controls/levers of their machinery, a machinery that should be "scrapped").

I believe that the revolutionaries that preceded us were correct in their GREAT WORKS to FIRST and FOREMOST seek redress of their grievances before they took up arms to secure their rights. Unfortunately, we can see that today as highlighted earlier: http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/InfoCenter.htm our gov. just as King George, has ignored the redress and is still in the process of STEALING, KILLING, and DESTROYING.

The most productive measure still available without taking our founders advice to "run tumultuously to ARMS" is to break away from them by Secession and this HAS very legitimate possibility for us to achieve success IMMEADIATELY rather than be like citizens of earlier corrupt STATES such as NAZI germany, Argentina, etc. that are a minority populous and just GO ALONG for the ride to OBLIVION as impotent spectators as the bus goes over the cliff.

The efforts of some people to educate a change have been ongoing since the very beginning of our republic and you can tip your hat to some GREAT GREAT sources of inspiration as Authors, associations, GROUPS and even impotent political parties....at the recent anniversary of the Von Mises Institute, Paul, in his speech drew attention to the fact that the current empire would BE FAILING as an inevitable OUTCOME by economic means to at least be encouraged by (I can't say as though I really believe any true patriots are disheartened by that!!! That really shows the State the Union is in).



i've thought quite a bit about this. i think that at this point there are not nearly enough people nearly angry enough. most people will stick with the govt for "security" sake.

but what about this - who says governments have to operate in mutually exclusive physical territories? why couldn't we just individually secede from the current US federal government and form a separate, parallel entity that defines our citizenship? a separate government overseeing separate people in the same physical space. we could continue living where we do and just say to the US government - "you're not the boss of me! i'm a citizen of... <whatever we call it>"

of course governments are very jealous of control and i'm convinced the only way to be free is to be willing to fight and die for it. but practically speaking, are there really any solid reasons why you couldn't have two nations that occupied the same physical territory?


This is the same thinking of many of the FREEMEN advocates, this site has a ton of information about how to go about changing and no longer being a "U.S. Citizen" and legally being your own SOVEREIGN: http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Freedom/Freedom.htm

Gin
10-04-2008, 08:49 AM
Hahahaha, there are a number of people that have been doing it for years....:)
I think by definition the slave uprising deal's purpose is just that.

The Slave Uprising event can be the Kick off for this....

Think about it all... This could work!! :)

We need another show of our forces to let them know we haven't gone anywhere and that we are serious about taking back our Country....

thehighwaymanq
10-04-2008, 08:54 AM
Bump!

Vote Waterman 2028
10-04-2008, 08:56 AM
Haha...
Like I said in the OP, I'm not necessarily advocating the demolition of a building. Just enough people coming together in one place at one time to dissolve the government through regular and peaceful means.

The more I think about this, the less skeptical I am that this a "stupid idea."

How much longer are we going to wait? How much more money is the state going to steal? How much more power is the state going to violate its own constitution and the will of its people to grab? Tell me, how many more lives do we allow the state to take and send off to die in a war of aggression? Where will this end? Where are we going to draw the line?

When the founding fathers spoke of "the people," im almost positive they meant the majority of americans. The problem is that you will not get the majority of americans to do this. Until you do, its a lost cause. But when the hatred for our gov. is finally at its peak, which i think wont be but 4 years from now, then you may have your peaceful revolution I will be there as well.

Philmanoman
10-04-2008, 09:02 AM
How about getting 100 mil people to collectively stop paying federal income tax.I know it sounds like an impossible feat...but I believe it can be done.

RevolutionSD
10-04-2008, 09:05 AM
Haha, it's late, I'm tired, and I just had a totally random thought. Maybe it's the long day at work that's gotten to me. Maybe it's the extreme frustration with my elected Representatives (all of whom voted for the bailout) and the government that just nonchalantly passed this bailout over the wishes of 90% of its people, and the feeling of hopelessness at attempting to influence or change or reform this government, let alone the Republican party. I'm just going to throw this out right now, really quick, because I know if I think about it too much, I'll probably wuss out and decide not to make this post.

The Declaration of Independence and many state constitutions (as another thread pointed out) declare that we the People have the right to abolish our government, if we see fit.

What if on this coming Fifth of November, we declared our intention to see the United States government abolished in one year (on November 5th, 2009), and then on the Fifth of November of 2009, we abolished it?

As libertarians, obviously, we don't believe in the initiation of aggression against person or property, but who says we HAVE to have violence and weapons to abolish this government? So, I'm not advocating violence, and I'm not necessarily advocating the destruction of a building (a la Guy Fawkes or V For Vendetta), but the day has such a significance, seeing as it will be the day immediately after McCain or Obama is elected, seeing as it is the day that one year previously launched the Ron Paul Revolution into reality, and seeing as it is a day that is associated both by history and by pop culture with revolution in government.

How much longer are we going to wait? How much more money is the state going to steal? How much more power is the state going to violate its own constitution and the will of its people to grab? Tell me, how many more lives do we allow the state to take and send off to die in a war of aggression? Where will this end? Where are we going to draw the line?

If the Founders could come visit us in our time and see where we are and see what our government has become. What would they say? I'm almost afraid they would chastise us for not having abolished this government yet. I'm afraid they would say, "Look at what you have allowed to grow! Look at how you let this beast steal from, control, imprison, and kill your fellow countrymen! And you've let it live like this for HOW LONG?"

I have the distinct feeling that if we could ask our Founders what course of action we should take concerning the government right now, they would come back resoundingly saying, "Abolish it, and suffer it not another day to live and thieve and murder."

We could, if we wanted to, give them a Fifth of November they would truly never, ever forget.







Proceed with the scathing responses and the labelling of this as a dumb idea and of me as one who is just trying to stir up trouble. I know what I'm getting into... Ha...

It's a great idea.
A society run by violent thugs is not one that I want to live in.

The only way to go at this point is to live in a voluntary society without the unnecessary idea of a government to "protect" citizens, which of course it does not do.

LibertyInJeopardy
10-04-2008, 09:11 AM
There is strength in numbers but the critical point the Founders understood that this thread does not appreciate is that those numbers must elect representatives to speak on their behalf and focus all of their interests into one room to be heard and negotiated - thus the Continental Congress and Constitutional Convention.

Here is an idea:

Hold state wide elections for Representatives to a new Constitutional Convention where the question of the Violations of the Constitution by the Current Government will be considered, so that that elected body may then consider and resolve upon an appropriate course of action. The results of their Convention may then be relayed to the greater numbers who elected them.

How to pay for the elections? The same way do everything. Money bombs and volunteers.

Instead of having people march on washington, have them march to their state capitols to vote for their state's representative to the new Constitutional Convention.

Who will be candidates? Anyone.

Cleaner44
10-04-2008, 09:26 AM
Aspiring,

There is something you can do. With each other. The fallacy with what we have been doing (and please do not take this as minimizing the entire movement) is we have been asking the State for help with implementing control on the State.

Have a look at this thread. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=153542) Let me know what you think.

There is no reason you cannot do both.

Alright, I dig the idea of Agorism. What do I do to get involved?

fedup100
10-04-2008, 10:00 AM
First off this should be done and done quickly. As Paul said we don't have years or even months. Just look at this bailout. It was sprung in last than 2 weeks and the country were taken down, Had they impeached bush and cheney, this would not have been possible.

I have posted so many posts about this subject and not one person would even bother to read it, discouraging of course. While this is a large topic and strong action, It can be made simple in order for the average person to understand. Then go through and make the big motions and then have a plan to finish off the smaller details in each county and state.

ALL POWER IS IN THE OFFICE OF THE COUNTY SHERIFF! Unfortunately the thugs know this and have had most of those offices filled by CIA operatives ( see alex jones ). There are only 7 FEDERAL STATES. The rest are suppose to be sovereign. They are only sovereign if you have an elected constitutional Sheriff, who can tell the feds, all of them, do not enter my county. So, the battle to win is first, the major counties in each state. The Sheriff and county boards are critical. This is where the battle is, not in DC. Take back your counties and State's and those 7 FEDERAL STATES owe that debt, not you a state citizen. Also, they can make war with what ever money those 7 states can give them and the big Pres. can drive himself around town in his used Volkswagen.

The Organic, or first real Constitution was taken down after the civil war. Washington feds were incorporated then and they adopted a corporate constitution. So you can abolish the fed or change it. I say change it. Change it back to the original organic document. It is the best blueprint for rapid freedom.

Make that change back with one sheet of paper and signed and sealed and done so in less than a month from now, quickly. Abolish the Corporate FED and call it null and void. Next elect a President and VP as well as representatives, Senators as dictated by the original Constitution. This can be done this Nov 4th to make Ron Paul the President of the real Constitutional USA.

Now work quickly in every state and every county you have the numbers to take back the Sheriff and county boards. After that is done, the states high offices will be easily taken.

Now, go about coining money etc to make the real system work for those who chose to live within it.

The biggest problem with this effort is violence, not from those who attempt this, but to those that peacefully try to accomplish this. The faction that has taken over the old Fed Gov will kill any one instantly to stop such a movement.

For this reason, I suggest that this idea is to be planned and written out in great detail. Next like a lobby, pull in all groups that will support it, there is safety in numbers. You need Judge Napolitano on board and maybe as Pres. or VP if he will accept it. You would need famous supporters that can get face time on the media like Ventura.

It is easy to do on paper, but staying alive to accomplish it may not be possible. Should people try to do this and are attacked, it will be the shot heard round the world and then it will be on.

cheapseats
10-04-2008, 10:21 AM
"And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight!"




My feelings on the matter are pretty well summed up by Patrick Henry:



Mine, as well.

mconder
10-04-2008, 10:23 AM
I think we could sign something saying we no longer recognize it until it recognizes the Constitution.

cheapseats
10-04-2008, 10:31 AM
I agree: however what I'm advocating is this very thing, but on a massive and sudden scale. Millions of people in one place, at one time, with one message.

Millions of people, one message...LOTS of places.

The uber-importance of Washington DC, not even one of our "united" states...the gross concentration of power and grosser concentration on pageantry...is a lot of the problem.

I traveled to Philadelphia a couple weeks ago, specifically to reacquaint myself with the men who did what we cannot seem to pull off. The buildings still stand. The Carpenter's Union Hall where the Continental Congress first met? Still there, with a docent in period attire. Independence Hall? Still standing and usable. The Philadelphia City Hall is nothing short of magnificent.

Philadelphia, City of Brotherly Love.

l


OUR DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE WAS “SIMPLY” WRITTEN AND SIGNED
REVOLUTIONARIES “SIMPLY” COMMENCED ABIDING BY ITS FINE PRINCIPLES
They ceased recognizing the Crown’s authority…they just said No.
The fighting came later, at the Crown's instigation.

fj45lvr
10-04-2008, 10:38 AM
I think we could sign something saying we no longer recognize it until it recognizes the Constitution.


here you go, sign away.


http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/InfoCenter.htm

fj45lvr
10-04-2008, 10:46 AM
How about getting 100 mil people to collectively stop paying federal income tax.I know it sounds like an impossible feat...but I believe it can be done.


One of the Ludwig Von Mises writers recently wrote an article about this, it was centered on the premise that in reality the FED and Gov. conspiracy doesn't even NEED income tax revenue....I'll try to find it.

That kind of makes this idea worthless and impotent as means to "slay the beast".

FreedomFighter8008
10-04-2008, 10:50 AM
What needs to happen is what the state of Oklahoma has done:

http://www.ok-safe.com/files/documents/1/HJR1089_int.pdf

worl
10-04-2008, 11:18 AM
Imagine every state rejecting all the un-constitutional laws the fed has imposed on us.

Mini-Me
10-04-2008, 11:49 AM
One of the Ludwig Von Mises writers recently wrote an article about this, it was centered on the premise that in reality the FED and Gov. conspiracy doesn't even NEED income tax revenue....I'll try to find it.

That kind of makes this idea worthless and impotent as means to "slay the beast".

This is true. Even if everyone stops paying direct taxes, we'll still be taxed so long as we use FRN's anyway. Besides, if any of us were to actually write "I do not recognize the sovereignty of the federal government" on our IRS tax forms and send them in, well...we'd be bringing hellfire down upon not just ourselves but our families.

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought, "Is this going to be a ballot initiative?" ;)

The way I see it, the Constitution is less of a contract between the federal government and the People and more of a contract between the federal government and the States. The States are the aggrieved parties here, although if they're complicit, they are in turn breaking their own Constitutions, which are their agreements with their People. It will not do much if scattered citizens all over the country declare our independence from the federal government, so long as our home States are willing to let the feds ride into town and "take care of us." The breakdown of federalism is what has allowed this, and restoring federalism is the only way to peacefully cow the federal government into submission, aside from continuing our efforts at taking over positions in the federal government itself. Realistically speaking, the best way to go about this is to build up support at the State level so each of our individual States will support us rather than support the feds.

Of course, that's easier said than done as well. Our support is not concentrated in any particular State, but rather, we are spread among the various States as minority factions. Depending on our ages, many of us have convinced our families and extended families to support third party candidates and pro-liberty causes on the ballot to a greater or lesser extent (and some have not even succeeded at that), but I do not know how many have actually convinced our families to take any stronger action. For instance, most Americans are simply not being "inconvenienced" enough yet to turn off American Idol, let alone to decide to move to another state that's more likely to try asserting sovereignty. In terms of where I am in my life right now, I'm just not ready to chart my own course and move somewhere else (at least not on a permanent basis), leaving friends and family members behind. Maybe I'm in the minority here, or maybe others here feel similarly tied down...but until practical living conditions really go south, most people - even those closest to us - will not be willing to do anything but register their dislike for establishment political candidates on the ballot...and as we know very well, convincing most Americans to do even this is still an uphill battle.

For those that feel similarly "tied down," reaching out and trying to educate people locally is still the only option, as difficult as it may be. We're just going to have to continue all efforts at taking over government at every level - federal, state, and local - and once we have stronger levels of support, it will be easier to determine which strategy bears more fruit.

Still, as others have said, I think the events of the past week will help to wake a lot more people up to reality and increase our support levels. People are pissed, and it's not just us. People know something big is brewing. We're not powerful yet, but I definitely think sympathy for our ideas is growing.

tpreitzel
10-04-2008, 11:52 AM
There is strength in numbers but the critical point the Founders understood that this thread does not appreciate is that those numbers must elect representatives to speak on their behalf and focus all of their interests into one room to be heard and negotiated - thus the Continental Congress and Constitutional Convention.

Here is an idea:

Hold state wide elections for Representatives to a new Constitutional Convention where the question of the Violations of the Constitution by the Current Government will be considered, so that that elected body may then consider and resolve upon an appropriate course of action. The results of their Convention may then be relayed to the greater numbers who elected them.

How to pay for the elections? The same way do everything. Money bombs and volunteers.

Instead of having people march on washington, have them march to their state capitols to vote for their state's representative to the new Constitutional Convention.

Who will be candidates? Anyone.

This tactic is similar to the globalist strategy of retaining national boundaries until the creation of the infrastructure for hemispheric unions is complete

A similar process for separating and possibly forming a new union might be feasible, but I'd be rather cautious because we might end up in an even worse union.

aspiringconstitutionalist
10-05-2008, 03:40 PM
I've taken a couple of days off from this since my last post to let my mind clear out and come back to the subject at hand with a fresh perspective.

I've read through all the posts that have been made during that time, and a lot of them consist of really complicated and peculiar legal processes that involve targeting a handful of specific political offices, or forming some new type of government, or doing more petitions, or waiting around for our fellow countrymen to get more "pissed off."

But really, HOW are any of these things going to work? We're not going to get the masses behind these really complicated and peculiar legal projects, we've petitioned our brains out for the past year and a half to no avail, we had the best type of government we could think of in our Constitution and still this form of government has crumbled under the weight of a few slick politicians. Most of our fellow countrymen, we have to now admit, are just plain apathetic and blind. Think of all the people we convinced to vote for Ron Paul during the primaries, in the belief that we had truly converted these people to lovers of liberty, only for them to now be enthusiastically supporting the Obama ticket or the Palin ticket.

If we just wait around and keep trying to "educate" until we get a "majority" of the American people with us, we'll all be dead before we ever get our liberties back.

I'm not looking for a new government, and as much as I would have liked it, I don't think we'll see a return to even "constitutional" government.

What I'm talking about is no government. No United States government. No involuntary government in the United States.

Yes, our fellow countrymen don't see nor understand that they are being lied to, stolen from, and sent to their deaths, but why should we have to wait around for them to realize this (when they probably never will) before we stop the deception, thievery, and murder? Don't we owe it to our fellow countrymen to free them from this deception, thievery, and murder, even if they don't realize that they're being deceived, stolen from, and sent to the slaughter?

The original Revolutionaries did not have a majority of their fellow countrymen behind them. They just did it. They just declared their independence and that was that.

Is it not our duty to do the same? Have we not put off this duty for far too long? Everyone on these forums agrees that our current government has long since surpassed the level of tyranny of the British government our forefathers broke away from. We all agree that our forefathers fulfilled their sacred duty to break away from the Crown when it became as tyrannical as it did. Is not now our sacred duty as well?

AbolishTheGovt
10-05-2008, 04:46 PM
I repeat:

Is it not now our sacred duty as well?

tggroo7
10-05-2008, 04:57 PM
well it's easy as hell to talk about it. You can't just say "let's abolish the government." "Hey, ok then." HOW exactly are we to do it??

AbolishTheGovt
10-05-2008, 05:05 PM
well it's easy as hell to talk about it. You can't just say "let's abolish the government." "Hey, ok then." HOW exactly are we to do it??

On November the Fifth of 2008, we have a core group (as many who are willing) sign a statement of intent to see the United States government abolished by November the Fifth of 2009.

We spend those next 365 days making any and all preparations, gathering as many people as we can to join us, refining our plans concerning how we are going to dissolve the government and how we are going to have a functioning free market anarchist system in place for us to switch over to after 11/5/09.

Then on November the Fifth, 2009, millions of us declare, at once, the government of the United States of America hereby abolished. We all simultaneously refuse to have our money taken from us by the government, refuse to acknowledge the legal and judicial authorities, refuse to do the government's military's bidding in harming or killing or restricting the liberties of other people either here or in foreign countries, and we finalize our contracts with private insurance/security agencies and private court systems to provide our defense services and legal recourse services thenceforth.

No fighting, no shooting, no killing, no blowing up buildings necessary. We'll be prepared to act in self-defense if the government chooses to make war on us for our peaceful action, but otherwise we'll plan on a peaceful and civil abolition of the government.

Mister Grieves
10-05-2008, 05:12 PM
On November the Fifth of 2008, we have a core group (as many who are willing) sign a statement of intent to see the United States government abolished by November the Fifth of 2009.

We spend those next 365 days making any and all preparations, gathering as many people as we can to join us, refining our plans concerning how we are going to dissolve the government and how we are going to have a functioning free market anarchist system in place for us to switch over to after 11/5/09.

Then on November the Fifth, 2009, millions of us declare, at once, the government of the United States of America hereby abolished. We all simultaneously refuse to have our money taken from us by the government, refuse to acknowledge the legal and judicial authorities, refuse to do the government's military's bidding in harming or killing or restricting the liberties of other people either here or in foreign countries, and we finalize our contracts with private insurance/security agencies and private court systems to provide our defense services and legal recourse services thenceforth.

No fighting, no shooting, no killing, no blowing up buildings necessary. We'll be prepared to act in self-defense if the government chooses to make war on us for our peaceful action, but otherwise we'll plan on a peaceful and civil abolition of the government.
How would we minimize the damage that the inevitable moles would do to the organization and movement?

AbolishTheGovt
10-05-2008, 05:18 PM
How would we minimize the damage that the inevitable moles would do to the organization and movement?

I know what you mean. I've been thinking about this. A serious issue would be moles infiltrating this movement, trying to undercut and obstruct our progress, and possibly even committing violence in our name to turn public opinion against us and give the government a reason to imprison and fight us.

Honestly, I don't have an exact answer to how we will deal with that, but the liberty movement has some of the greatest minds our country can offer, and I trust we will come up with good solutions.

But what I really, truly feel is that we need to declare our intentions and set an actual date, and then work out the details. If we keep waiting, there will always be peripheral side-problems, and we'll never actually get it done. Things like what you brought up can be dealt with creatively over the next year + one month, but isn't it long past the time when we should make our intentions known?

Mister Grieves
10-05-2008, 05:31 PM
...but isn't it long past the time when we should make our intentions known?

I believe that it is. Obviously there are going to be risks involved with this, but no one said it would be easy.

powerofreason
10-05-2008, 05:44 PM
Theres not a heck of a lot we can do at the moment with our numbers.

Mister Grieves
10-05-2008, 05:47 PM
Theres not a heck of a lot we can do at the moment with our numbers.
There's a lot more "we/us" than you probably realize, and Washington's latest actions have stirred something long dormant in them. There may not be many more opportunities for this.

powerofreason
10-05-2008, 05:49 PM
There's a lot more "us" than you probably realize, and Washington's latest actions have stirred something dormant in them. There may not be many more opportunities for this.

For this? For what exactly? I hate waiting too. I want to do something meaningful. But what? Be specific and realistic.

Mister Grieves
10-05-2008, 05:50 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=161233

SeanEdwards
10-05-2008, 05:58 PM
This is agent provocateur entrapment bullshit. Don't be a chump.

LibertyEagle
10-05-2008, 06:01 PM
Marches on Washington? Huge protests?
NO
Now is not the time to be using our efforts to gather together
to scream at our government - they have proved these past few
days that they do not care. Now is the time for you to get out
from behind your computer and go talk to your neighbors, get
them as angry as you. Right now outreach is pretty much the only
option available to us. We must either become very good at
spreading the word or we will not prevail on Nov 5th or any
other day.

Agreed.

powerofreason
10-05-2008, 06:04 PM
This is agent provocateur entrapment bullshit. Don't be a chump.

He's not advocating violence.

Mister Grieves
10-05-2008, 06:06 PM
Some people's paranoia has frozen them into perpetual complacency.

AbolishTheGovt
10-05-2008, 06:06 PM
This is agent provocateur entrapment bullshit. Don't be a chump.

I pretty much expected to be called an agent provocateur or a troll, sooner or later.

I am not an agent provocateur, but I am someone who is FED UP with standing by idly while I and my fellow countrymen are deceived, controlled, stolen from, and sent off to slaughter and be slaughtered. Our Founders very clearly gave us the right to abolish a government when it becomes destructive of our liberty. They did so when their government became destructive of their liberties. Our government has far surpassed what the British Crown did, and yet we still stand here idly, unwilling to put an end to this.

My question for you is:

How many more dollars will this government steal from you and I and our fellow countrymen before we finally say "No more?" and exercise our Declaration-guaranteed right to abolish this government?

How much more freedom will this government restrict?

How many more lives will this government take?

Five? Ten? One hundred? One thousand? One million?

When the government steals $3 trillion of our money instead of $850 billion, THEN will we draw the line? What about $10 trillion? What about $30 trillion?

When the government has killed 500,000 people in its wars of aggression, THEN will we draw the line? What about a million? What about 100 million?

When the government runs our economy into the ground, THEN will we finally rise up? After our neighbors have been killed and starved and put out of their jobs and our children are already suffering from malnutrition and disease and they have imposed curfews on us and sent our brothers and sisters to undisclosed locations and re-education facilities?

How long will we wait?

As for this "agent provocateur," the wait is over. It's time we peacefully, but assertively, draw the line in the sand.

I'm not advocating violence, nor killing, nor destruction of a building. Simply exercising our Declaration-guaranteed right to abolish a government when it becomes destructive of our liberties, which it has.

SeanEdwards
10-05-2008, 06:12 PM
He's not advocating violence.

-CITE-
18 USC Sec. 2384 01/03/2007

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 115 - TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

-HEAD-
Sec. 2384. Seditious conspiracy

-STATUTE-
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place
subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to
overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the
United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force
the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the
execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize,
take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the
authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

-SOURCE-
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, Sec.
1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXIII, Sec. 330016(1)(N),
Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

gilliganscorner
10-05-2008, 06:17 PM
Alright, I dig the idea of Agorism. What do I do to get involved?

You can be. Talk to the mom and pop businesses you do business with. Agorism is up to you.

AbolishTheGovt
10-05-2008, 06:22 PM
-CITE-
18 USC Sec. 2384 01/03/2007

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 115 - TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

-HEAD-
Sec. 2384. Seditious conspiracy

-STATUTE-
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place
subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to
overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the
United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force
the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the
execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize,
take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the
authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

-SOURCE-
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, Sec.
1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXIII, Sec. 330016(1)(N),
Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

If "peacefully declaring the United States of America's involuntary governmental system hereby dissolved and making voluntary contracts with private defense/court/insurance firms instead" is included in this statute, which I do not believe it is, we'll be guilty as charged.

However, this statute concerns "overthrowing, putting down, or destroying by force," which a peaceful abolition of the government would not entail. This statute concerns "levying war against the government," which a peaceful abolition would not entail. "Opposing by force," is also not our goal. "Preventing, hindering, or delaying the execution of a law," is not even our goal. The old government can continue to make as many laws as they want, and anyone who voluntarily really wants to follow the laws of the old government can continue to do so. We won't hinder that. But each of us will personally refuse to be subject to it. We are also not going to "by force seize, take, or possess any property of the government." They can keep it. But we will declare that the old government can, equally, not seize, take, or possess any of OUR property either.

powerofreason
10-05-2008, 06:34 PM
-CITE-
18 USC Sec. 2384 01/03/2007

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 115 - TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

-HEAD-
Sec. 2384. Seditious conspiracy

-STATUTE-
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place
subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to
overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the
United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force
the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the
execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize,
take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the
authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

-SOURCE-
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, Sec.
1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXIII, Sec. 330016(1)(N),
Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

Thats if ya get caught :p

But in all serious. Personally I don't want to "bring down the govt" :rolleyes: Thats just foolishness at this point. I'm thinking about moving to New Hampshire sometime relatively soon and doing some activism, though. Non-cooperation and civil disobedience, maybe. Thats more realistic. Anything we do now has to be focused on converting more folks to the cause. Nothing too drastic, that turns people off.

SeanEdwards
10-05-2008, 06:47 PM
If "peacefully declaring the United States of America's involuntary governmental system hereby dissolved and making voluntary contracts with private defense/court/insurance firms instead" is included in this statute, which I do not believe it is, we'll be guilty as charged.


You are making the mistake of thinking that the people in charge of the existing power structure are going to act in a logical and/or moral way towards your actions. Any effort to secede, whether peacefully or otherwise, will be attacked by the power structure that would be weakened by that secession. One of the means of attack will be to identify and neutralize leaders in any secession movement. And one of the means of neutralization will be by railroading idealistic and naive fools with conspiracy charges.

AbolishTheGovt
10-05-2008, 06:50 PM
You are making the mistake of thinking that the people in charge of the existing power structure are going to act in a logical and/or moral way towards your actions. Any effort to secede, whether peacefully or otherwise, will be attacked by the power structure that would be weakened by that secession. One of the means of attack will be to identify and neutralize leaders in any secession movement. And one of the means of neutralization will be by railroading idealistic and naive fools with conspiracy charges.

And I'm sure our Forefathers faced that same exact predicament in their day as well.

mediahasyou
10-06-2008, 08:05 AM
How can governments be abolished?
http://www.voluntaryist.com/articles/073.php

gilliganscorner
10-06-2008, 08:24 AM
How can governments be abolished?
http://www.voluntaryist.com/articles/073.php

Agorism is the only non-violent mechanism that stands a non-zero chance of success.

mediahasyou
10-06-2008, 03:37 PM
Agorism is the only non-violent mechanism that stands a non-zero chance of success.

Competition brings out the best in all of us. In competition, the fastest, most efficient and most beneficial survive. Thus, competing ways to abolish the government is necessary. It would be a paradox to only advocate Agorism which advocates competition.

gilliganscorner
10-07-2008, 06:02 AM
Competition brings out the best in all of us. In competition, the fastest, most efficient and most beneficial survive. Thus, competing ways to abolish the government is necessary. It would be a paradox to only advocate Agorism which advocates competition.

I'm not sure what your point is. Any other competing way that I know of involves, ultimately a direct confrontation with the State. How would you fare? They spend your tax money ensuring that have greater firepower than you to protect itself from you.

You have another strategy? I would like to hear it (no cockiness at all).

Mini-Me
10-07-2008, 04:07 PM
And I'm sure our Forefathers faced that same exact predicament in their day as well.

Our forefathers got away with declaring their independence without much starting support because even though most colonists were somewhat apathetic, a great number of people still saw the British government as essentially a foreign presence on their land. Plus, events like the Boston Massacre pissed off the public much more back then than events like the bailout are pissing them off today. Furthermore, the British government only had a small contingent of military force present before the American Revolution. After the signing of the Declaration, the colonists did not have a tremendous degree of trouble taking control of the country, making it THEIR home turf, and preparing for the inevitable violent invasion by the British. In addition to taking physical control of their home turf, they also had a much easier time of distributing pro-independence literature to the colonist masses. They didn't have to worry about their message being entirely drowned out and/or perverted by 24/7 MSM, and they didn't have to worry about colonists ignoring them in favor of tuning into American Idol. Remember, our Founding Fathers did exactly what you're saying - peacefully declare their independence and hope for the best - but they knew that the king's reaction would be violent and result in a war, and they made damn sure they were in a position to possibly win it.

Our situation is VERY different. Every single aspect of our situation is more difficult than that of the colonists, and the playing field is rigged many more times over. Most people don't even hesitate before bowing to the "legitimate" authority of the federal government, they THINK they have representation in government, they're tuned into the MSM 24/7, and the government is not halfway across the world. It's right here on our soil, and they have firm control of every level of our infrastructure, including locally. On top of that, support for liberty today is probably much lower than it was at the time of the American Revolution, and apathy is probably much higher. If anyone "declares their independence" today and stops paying taxes, a small army of jack-booted IRS thugs will show up at their house. They'll be taken in if they cry uncle, and they'll be killed if they try to defend themselves. If a succession of people DO make rash suicidal stands like that and end up dead, it MIGHT end up sparking an outrage similar to that of the Boston Massacre...but that's not going to bring their lives back, and furthermore, most people will believe the MSM when they spin it to make the government seem like the courageous good guys. If the suicidal tax offender takes down any home invaders with him, CNN will do a teary-eyed special on the heroic lives of those particular stormtroopers.

No matter how peaceful it is on our part, we do not have the luxury of "declaring our independence" and mustering support afterward. We have but one option: We must do this the long, slow, hard way by gradually waking more and more people up to this tyranny until they are ready to demand freedom. Only then will we succeed at telling the federal government, "You're not the boss of us," but the people are nowhere near ready yet. Hell, even some people on RPF are still voting for McCain or Obama as the "lesser of two evils!" If even some of US are not willing to say "Enough is enough" at the ballot box, do you seriously think a significant enough number of people would join you in doing something as drastic as flat-out declaring the government illegitimate, avoiding taxes, etc.? Come on.

Bottom line: Things are really bad, but we just started our political efforts in earnest a mere year and a half ago (and some, like me, weren't even here at the beginning). It's hardly time to give up on them.

-lotus-
10-07-2008, 04:12 PM
the only way this would even cause a ripple of effect is if every person that showed up to do this was armed and prepared to fight for their freedom. call me when that day comes.

mediahasyou
10-07-2008, 05:35 PM
I say we get anarchists from all walks of life on this deal. Anarcho-communist, individualist, mutualist, socialist. We all strive for the same goal.

mediahasyou
10-07-2008, 05:43 PM
I'm not sure what your point is. Any other competing way that I know of involves, ultimately a direct confrontation with the State. How would you fare? They spend your tax money ensuring that have greater firepower than you to protect itself from you.

You have another strategy? I would like to hear it (no cockiness at all).

Voluntaryism. (No longer consenting to be ruled by a coercive state. As statuary neglect induced a culture in the colonies of being ungoverned.)

Passive Resistance. (Will give us emotional support by the population. Like the Boston Massacre did.


Those are 2 that have achieved social change. Putting blind faith in one strategy allows only one door to walk through. The state with all its might will shut as many doors as possible. Yet, there are still many doors to be opened and strategies to find. Thus, keep an open mind.

tremendoustie
10-07-2008, 06:09 PM
This is not intended to put any damper on what has already been said, but here's another idea for the fifth:

We all separate ourselves from bankers and FRNs to the maximum extent possible. For practicality's sake, those with jobs could receive checks, but they would immediately convert them into PMs or any other real asset, and pay for rent, groceries, etc, with them. I think most local store owners or renters would be willing to take silver if asked nicely. Only when absolutely unavoidable would FRNs be used, but strong effort would be made to find vendors that would accept other payments, or barter. We would not hold any meaningful amount of money in fractional reserve banking accounts.

Those of us with businesses would agree to accept PMs or other assets, and list prices in gold or silver, or other monies, in addition to FRNs.

Let's declare monetary independence for starters, and I'll tell you what, that would be a much more serious blow to them than a bunch of people with signs.

Sic Semper Tyrannis
10-07-2008, 07:24 PM
I don't know about ya'll, but my people have been waiting for a Revolution since 1861.

Sic Semper Tyrannis
10-07-2008, 07:30 PM
And we should not fear the discussion of the abolishment of our government.

The day we fear to discuss this is the day it must be done, and if it must be done then so be it.