Two points on tonights debate:

[john_anderson_ii]

1.) Win or loss, that 'heated exchange' brought Ron Paul one step closer to wielding the big Veto stick in his strong pimp hand. This debate drew huge lines. There was a line between Ron Paul and the pro-war crowd before, and that line is still the same. Now, however, there are lines between the guys standing on the pro-war side of the line. Ron Paul, whether he meant to or not, just fractured the vote on the pro-war side of that line, and got a little face time to boot.

2.) McCain was awesome! As an Arizonan Republican I hope the rest of the US now sees why we keep voting for him. He's not perfect, but he's honest, sincere, and willing to go out a limb to be progressive and proactive. That's why he's a good senator, and thats why I think he should stay a senator. I like him, but I think his pimp hand would be weaker on the veto than Paul's.


This debate cause some debate among my in-laws. I find it amazing that they think the Iraq war and 9/11 were somehow correlated. They also thought that leaving now would be wasting the lives of the soldiers we lost in the conflict. That is all straightened out now, and we have two more RP primary voters in Arizona now.


Crap! Posted in the wrong forum.

[ThePieSwindler]

besides the war and the amnesty bill i have nothing against mccain, i guess... but those are two HUGE, MASSIVE issues. No offense to him, but he just doesn't seem like that bright of a guy either. I used to be a McCain, well, not supporter, but friendly backer, and by used to, i mean back in like 2000 and even 2004 (not that there was really a primary in 2004)

[Lord Xar]

yeah, McCain LOST HUGE RESPECT when he went behind the American people and helped draft that SHAMNESTY bill was a travesty.

He lent his ear to Racist Group La Raza and allowed so many loopholes and conditionals to the detriment of the American People, that an American can NEVER EVER forgive. He basically allowed special interests to usurp his judgement and take precedent over the will of the people and not only that. IT was just plain wrong and inappropriate.. and one could say, he is a man of principle cause he has conviction, but I am beginning to think he is just stubborn.

[john_anderson_ii]

I correspond with his office from time to time, and I'm going to have to defend McCain the man here, not his position mind you.

Arizona businesses have become dependent on cheap, illegal labor. Above the board businesses can't compete if they don't hire minimum wage illegals for their menial labor. Construction and landscaping small business can't compete if they don't hire "day labor", most often at or below minimum wage. McCain honestly believes he was reaching a "decent" compromise between the needs of business, and the need for border security.

I can't say that I agree with this, and I certainly can't say that aren't all sorts of holes in this logic. But to put facts in perspective he was honestly trying to represent Arizona in congress. Not to mention the fact that no one else has come even close to addressing this problem at the federal level that I'm aware of.

In short, it boils down to "Good initiative, bad judgment." That's something I can respect.

I've never agreed with McCain on his war stance. However, I have commended him on his stance on torture and the treatment of enemy combatants. As a former Marine, I hold these issues very close. Our enemy will treat our prisoners worse than we treat theirs, we've always set the bar. I support him because of his "no compromise" stance on gun control.

Like I said, excellent senator. I just don't think he would do as well as Paul in the oval office. If he gets the nomination over Paul I will support him, which is more than I can say for any other candidate.

[Lord Xar]

Well, the bill wasn't even fully written when they tried to fast track it so to me it was all dishonest. How could McCain back a bill that wasn't even written.

Also, those loopholes and conditionals would have REALLY be lame for the american people - so to me, I can't see how you can seperate that from the man. A baker bakes a cake.

Now, "IF" your logic is correct that they needed cheap labour, to me - I don't get it.. because they "USE" this cheap labour as undocumented workers, right?

Well, what happens then WHEN THEY ARE MADE LEGAL? That slave labour NOW is not longer applicable because as U.S. citizens they now have rights, and the employers have to follow laws.. SO, in effect.. those illegals that would just be made legal would then be competeting directly with Americans for those jobs because now those slave labour wages would not "fly" with the employement laws... right?

So, then what? MORE and MORE illegals to now fill the spots of the now legal ones, who would either have to remove themselves from those jobs because of labour laws and employers will now not pay a fair wage to these "americans" so they would require ADDITIONAL illegal immigrants to exploit, or the businesses would up their pay --- THUS, removing all doubt that illegals were a pandering tool to gather votes AND force americans out of the work force.. that is how i see it.

Forget it. McCain to me lost all respect. I can dig him as guy and appreciate him for his previous work.... but what he tried to do.... was a travesty. Are you familiar with the intricacies of that shamnesty bill? If you were, perhaps all respect would be gone for you too.

I am not sure I explained this well, its late.

-In a nutshell, the exploited undocumented would now be documented, and thus the slave labour business would not be applicable to them, so either those businesses would now need "Additional" illegal immigrants to occupy this cheap labour field.. the previous 'cheap illegal labour' are now legal, and will be forced to compete directly with higher paying jobs that americans have... thus forcing MORE AMERICANS OUT OF THE WORK FORCE ON TWO LEVELS.. The one current slave labour jobs that the employers exploit illegals with cheap labour and THEN by making them legal they would then move out of those jobs into another -- thus creating more incentive for businesses to reduce their pay for these new "legal immigrants" THUS Forcing additional americans out of jobs because of the greed of the businesses...

also, the border security that was contained within that bill was LESS THAN what was currently in the books, but what chertoff had no intention of implemnting... so, in actuality.. LESS border security.

[john_anderson_ii]

I'm not arguing the amnesty bill in the slightest. As an Arizonan I was communicating these very same points to his office. The fact remains that he thought he was ultimately representing Arizona. Misguided? Yes. Honest? Yes. That's why I'm supporting RP over McCain. However, he is not a bad guy on any measuring stick.

[shadowhooch]

McCain lost my support when he outlawed the UFC (Ultimate Fighting) in Arizona.

C'mon, you are for pre-emptive strikes and sending soldiers and bombing countries but you can't handle the basic sport of who is the best fighter?:rolleyes:

[JS4Pat]

That's why I'm supporting RP over McCain. However, he is not a bad guy on any measuring stick.

I respect your opinion - but must disagree. John McCain has proven himself to be a dishonest, misguided and mean spirited politician. I had a little bit of respect for his "Straight-Talk Express" campaign in 2000 but when he sold out to the religious right and the neocons - he became just like the rest of em.

IMO - He is an awful Senator and would be an even worse Commander in Chief.

Sorry John...

[Hook]

I liked McCain until he decided the Iraq War was a swell idea. I would have taken him over Bush in 2000 though.

[Patriot]

I think Ron Paul scored big on the Iraq issue and the tax issue. I wish they would have asked him more than 3 questions of the 12 (not counting the stupid Fred Thompson question). Also, did anyone else notice the person or people who were laughing every time Ron was asked a question?

[Kregener]

McCain is just another statist.

[foofighter20x]

moving this to rpn&d....

[wgadget]

1.) Win or loss, that 'heated exchange' brought Ron Paul one step closer to wielding the big Veto stick in his strong pimp hand. This debate drew huge lines. There was a line between Ron Paul and the pro-war crowd before, and that line is still the same. Now, however, there are lines between the guys standing on the pro-war side of the line. Ron Paul, whether he meant to or not, just fractured the vote on the pro-war side of that line, and got a little face time to boot.

2.) McCain was awesome! As an Arizonan Republican I hope the rest of the US now sees why we keep voting for him. He's not perfect, but he's honest, sincere, and willing to go out a limb to be progressive and proactive. That's why he's a good senator, and thats why I think he should stay a senator. I like him, but I think his pimp hand would be weaker on the veto than Paul's.


This debate cause some debate among my in-laws. I find it amazing that they think the Iraq war and 9/11 were somehow correlated. They also thought that leaving now would be wasting the lives of the soldiers we lost in the conflict. That is all straightened out now, and we have two more RP primary voters in Arizona now.


Crap! Posted in the wrong forum.


Well, I guess we need to lose some more lives over there. Then it will all make sense. Duh.

[Bouhk]

Why Ron Paul is the winner

Last nights Rapublican Debate has truly confirmed my choice in a Presidential Candidate. They all did very well last night and any one of them would be better than those Demodudes with the dope that witchingly speaks the our youth: "Sleeeeep, sleeeeep. Dupey will put them to sleeep...sleeeeep." Anyways, Ron Paul has proven himself worthy to be elected President of our nation. He spoke with passion and conviction.

War on Terror

Like the Roman Empire, our economy can't handle being spread thin across the world--and, if we do find in neseccary to fight Iran it should not be occupied after we clrush and destlroy them into tiny bit. No fixing them! If they want a war then they're going to have to clean up their own mess!
Ron Paul would definitely have to take protective messures for Israel's sake, even when he pulls out of Iraq. I agree that pulling out of Iraq is a must for the future of America and this is why: The neo-conservatives have duped a large percentage of conservatives to believe that all the Iraqi leaders we put there will be slaughtered...and they're right--but, what they don't see is that our economy will collapse and the Iraqis will still die!! Its kinda like that old punk song,

Should [we] stay or should [we] go now?
Should [we] stay or should [we] go now?
If [we] go there will be trouble.
If [we] stay there will be double.
So come on and let me know,
should [we] stay or should [we] go?

We're fighting an enemy that has no Rules of Engagement, no political correctness, and we are fighting an enemy worthy of comparing to Hannibal! Its the hit and run game and Hannibal terrified Rome with this...yes, "terrorism." If we continue to go the road we're going our economy will soon fall into a depression because we'll simply be bankrupt.

The difference between the Roman Empire and America is that when Rome conquered a country they called them Rome, and the citizens of the conquered country payed taxes to Rome. In America, however, we citizens payed taxes to Iraq for having conquered them...or did we? The Roman Empire lasted longer than America has even been a country. Rome stood for Money and Might, whereas, America has taken the Money and Might position to the extreme that Corporate American business thugs are grinding down the poor!!
Corporate America can't resist a media attack on Mother Teresa and this is why her Christian image is under the false propaganda of the Corporate mofia. She was combating the caste-system that far-left neo-conservatives have place us poor people under! The majority of corrupt business men are mystics and believe in evolutionary religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Scientific Atheism (all the same, actually). Forcing pantheism on America is the biggest mistake ever made in U.S. history. India, China, and Russia suffer because of pantheistic ideology and Ron Paul promises to stick to our civil rights and do away with these mob bosses who have been slowly killing us spiritually, mentally, and physically.

Sean Hannity vs. Ron Paul

I laughed hard with approval to Paul's quick response to Hannity's mockings. Hannity asked him what other Institutions will he do away with and Ron Paul says "The Department of Education"! That organization is evil and unconstitutional. They teach Dan Brown conspiracies now and I personally have scores of errors collected of textbook corruptions, and antisemitism is everywhere. Education in America was never supposed to push the rants of ideologues to young children. The Department of Education (or, NEA) has been discriminating against Jews and Christians without any justification! Well, here is my own short debate on Power Line. Check out these post and see if discrimination should farther escalate..

On Global Warming: www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/22893

Solution to Evolution vs. Creation debate in the public schools:
www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/19879

Outcome of discussion: Genesis proven, actualy..
www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/19879/P270 (see first post by Origen.)

I was of course personally attacked and politically assassinated for these post and others.

Anyways these are the factors that won for me. And Ron Paul is fair and wants Americans to remain a free people.

[Bouhk]

Well, I guess we need to lose some more lives over there. Then it will all make sense. Duh.

I hear you loud and clear.

[Bouhk]

besides the war and the amnesty bill i have nothing against mccain, i guess... but those are two HUGE, MASSIVE issues.

I vowed I would not vote for anyone who allowed illegals to mow their laws and jump the fence in Arizona, so I ruled out both McCain and Romey from the start. I'm in stricken poverty because of Nafta and neo-Conservatives are very unpopular with me. I will admit, though, that McCain and even Romney did well...but the others did better in my opinion.

[Bean]

I think its pertinent to remember that when McCain was running in 2004, he was running as a "moderate" republican; he got blasted by both sides, which is why he lost. Now, in 2008, he's generally in support of the president! If he would be running today with more moderate views I think his campaign would be picking up a lot more steam.


Sidenote: I watched the debate with my family.

In the beginning of the debate there was 1 Ron Paul Supporter and 3 Giuliani supporters.
There are now 4 Paul supporters.:D

[Bouhk]

I think its pertinent to remember that when McCain was running in 2004, he was running as a "moderate" republican; he got blasted by both sides, which is why he lost. Now, in 2008, he's generally in support of the president! If he would be running today with more moderate views I think his campaign would be picking up a lot more steam.


Sidenote: I watched the debate with my family.

In the beginning of the debate there was 1 Ron Paul Supporter and 3 Giuliani supporters.
There are now 4 Paul supporters.:D

"Do dooo do do-do, do dooo do do-do, do dooo do do-do..Stop spreading the news....I want to be apart of it..New York, New York....
Annnnnnnn-da, if can make it there I can make it anywhere
Its up to you..New York..New Yooooooooork."
~ Giuliani , "Last nights Republican Deabte" (hehehe!!)

Ya I've made up my mind on Ron Paul too.

[Bouhk]

Why Ron Paul is the winner

Last nights Rapublican Debate has truly confirmed my choice in a Presidential Candidate. They all did very well last night and any one of them would be better than those Demodudes with the dope that witchingly speaks the our youth: "Sleeeeep, sleeeeep. Dupey will put them to sleeep...sleeeeep." Anyways, Ron Paul has proven himself worthy to be elected President of our nation. He spoke with passion and conviction.

War on Terror

Like the Roman Empire, our economy can't handle being spread thin across the world--and, if we do find in neseccary to fight Iran it should not be occupied after we clrush and destlroy them into tiny bit. No fixing them! If they want a war then they're going to have to clean up their own mess!
Ron Paul would definitely have to take protective messures for Israel's sake, even when he pulls out of Iraq. I agree that pulling out of Iraq is a must for the future of America and this is why: The neo-conservatives have duped a large percentage of conservatives to believe that all the Iraqi leaders we put there will be slaughtered...and they're right--but, what they don't see is that our economy will collapse and the Iraqis will still die!! Its kinda like that old punk song,

Should [we] stay or should [we] go now?
Should [we] stay or should [we] go now?
If [we] go there will be trouble.
If [we] stay there will be double.
So come on and let me know,
should [we] stay or should [we] go?

We're fighting an enemy that has no Rules of Engagement, no political correctness, and we are fighting an enemy worthy of comparing to Hannibal! Its the hit and run game and Hannibal terrified Rome with this...yes, "terrorism." If we continue to go the road we're going our economy will soon fall into a depression because we'll simply be bankrupt.

The difference between the Roman Empire and America is that when Rome conquered a country they called them Rome, and the citizens of the conquered country payed taxes to Rome. In America, however, we citizens payed taxes to Iraq for having conquered them...or did we? The Roman Empire lasted longer than America has even been a country. Rome stood for Money and Might, whereas, America has taken the Money and Might position to the extreme that Corporate American business thugs are grinding down the poor!!
Corporate America can't resist a media attack on Mother Teresa and this is why her Christian image is under the false propaganda of the Corporate mofia. She was combating the caste-system that far-left neo-conservatives have place us poor people under! The majority of corrupt business men are mystics and believe in evolutionary religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Scientific Atheism (all the same, actually). Forcing pantheism on America is the biggest mistake ever made in U.S. history. India, China, and Russia suffer because of pantheistic ideology and Ron Paul promises to stick to our civil rights and do away with these mob bosses who have been slowly killing us spiritually, mentally, and physically.

Sean Hannity vs. Ron Paul

I laughed hard with approval to Paul's quick response to Hannity's mockings. Hannity asked him what other Institutions will he do away with and Ron Paul says "The Department of Education"! That organization is evil and unconstitutional. They teach Dan Brown conspiracies now and I personally have scores of errors collected of textbook corruptions, and antisemitism is everywhere. Education in America was never supposed to push the rants of ideologues to young children. The Department of Education (or, NEA) has been discriminating against Jews and Christians without any justification! Well, here is my own short debate on Power Line. Check out these post and see if discrimination should farther escalate..

On Global Warming: www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/22893

Solution to Evolution vs. Creation debate in the public schools:
www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/19879

Outcome of discussion: Genesis proven, actualy..
www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/19879/P270 (see first post by Origen.)

I was of course personally attacked and politically assassinated for these post and others.

Anyways these are the factors that won for me. And Ron Paul is fair and wants Americans to remain a free people.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

Hello? Can you say "McCain-Feingold" and bye-bye First Amendment? Oh, the abortion lobbyist was a big shaker behind the anti-speech bill too.

[Bouhk]

Hello? Can you say "McCain-Feingold" and bye-bye First Amendment? Oh, the abortion lobbyist was a big shaker behind the anti-speech bill too.

Don't worry about me, for this American ruled out McCain right from the get-go. He allowed the illegal Mexican invaision and he now wants to be President of America? Seriously...not happening.