Paul follows GW's lead on 51st statism

[fj45lvr]

Israel is most definetly the 51st state!! all other citizens must denounce their citizenship to vote in american elections except Israelis I believe (correct me if I am wrong)EDIT************** I am wrong....it seems we allow (absurdly) foreign nationals that have achieved US citizenship OR Americans that have also become citizens of other nations to VOTE, serve in their military, and hold some official positions in their gov. and STILL vote in BOTH the U.S. and Foreign elections.....totally crazy IMHO) link: http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/dualcitizenship.html


This is following nearly as I can tell Puals admonitions concerning our flawed foreign policy which is contributing to our tyranny instead of our LIBERTY.

GEORGE WASHINGTON stated:

nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils. Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?
It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies

[njandrewg]

I expected this to be about a different George W.

[Madison]

Very nice.

Our "alliance" with Israel is the bane of our nation's existence at the moment.

[Starks]

Very nice.

Our "alliance" with Israel is the bane of our nation's existence at the moment.

Like gay marriage right? </sarcasm>

Stop blowing it out of proportions. Supporting Israel is a problem, but it's far from tearing our nation apart at its seams.

[max]

Like gay marriage right? </sarcasm>

Stop blowing it out of proportions. Supporting Israel is a problem, but it's far from tearing our nation apart at its seams.

Israel and its US lobby are the reason we are in this disaster of a war. We are going bankrupt because of zionist neocons

google: USS Liberty and see what great "allies" the israelis are

[Giuliani was there on 911]

There was a thread about this like an hour ago, why did it get closed ?

[max]

There was a thread about this like an hour ago, why did it get closed ?

Because..even among "libertarians"...criticism of Israel is 'anti-semitic"...

I had also pointed out that the atack on RP by Chris wallace ("marching orders") may have been motivated by the fact that Wallace is jewish

[fj45lvr]

ain't it ironic that our unwise alliance will lead to the most damage to our republic from the Democrats having full reign to institute more statism??

This is what makes George Washingtons warning so profound....when I read that I immeadiately thought of the EXTREME bias (evil if you will) that has made us do so much irrational (as washington warned).

the mossad is supposedly the best intelligence service in the world....they must have some pretty nasty dirt on us I guess....you want to believe something like that rather than blind devotion to a LOBBYIST power on the Hill... No matter how you slice it.. IT is a conspiracy. It always makes me laugh too because what is the chance ethnic racists would get this much sway over here without being railroaded out of town by the press or the cops or both.

really makes you scratch your head as you see it plain as day....GW outlines it all 150 years in advance!!!

[Giuliani was there on 911]

Because..even among "libertarians"...criticism of Israel is 'anti-semitic"...

I had also pointed out that the atack on RP by Chris wallace ("marching orders") may have been motivated by the fact that Wallace is jewish
Fuck that, man. This forum should be different. Israel is the reason Paul is treated like shit by the media.

[max]

Fuck that, man. This forum should be different. Israel is the reason Paul is treated like shit by the media.

rupert murdoch's mother (the former Elizabeth Green) was also jewish

[Giuliani was there on 911]

rupert murdoch's mother (the former Elizabeth Green) was also jewish
Yeah I know, and that makes him technically Jewish too. Good news though, his son (who'll one day take over) is not pro Zionist.

[Mesogen]

I'll bet John Stewart praised Ron Paul's honesty and integrity because he's jewish.

[fj45lvr]

being jewish has nothing to do with whether you agree with a formation of a zionist state stolen from the "natives"....there are jewish friends that are as disgusted as I am....and there are some Israeli's that are disgusted too....

How America slipped from the doctrine of "self-determination" to financing and supplying the guns to squelch the "natives" is the sickening part....in only 60 years time....the game plan was that "they would get old and forget"...instead we reap the rewards as it festers in the hearts of those that percieve the injustice...and up the ante of "eye for eye".

[Giuliani was there on 911]

I'll bet John Stewart praised Ron Paul's honesty and integrity because he's jewish.
It has nothing to do with Judaism, but Zionism. There's a HUGE difference between the two.

[fj45lvr]

This is the dirty little secret that everyone doesn't address....even Paul only gives it passing mention....

How long will it take for Americans to actually show rational dialogue over the damage we have done in our foreign policy on this issue?? Not only have we lost respect, lost OUR MONEY, but we have reaped the rewards that WASHINGTON clearly explains from those that are the "unfavorites".......

Funny how the Republicans are in the mindset that we have to "ATTACK" IRAN for sponsorship to their laundry list when we are not attacking CHINA, RUSSIA, etc. for their LONG LONG history of support......AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY is reduced to "beating up the weaklings"....even though we ourselves are supplying ARMS and AMMUNITION to the very same as history shows....need to attack ourselves (which is the point Washington makes: WE ARE).

[tmg19103]

I am by no means an anti-semite and have Jewish friends as I live in Philly which has a decent Jewish population. Interestingly, most of the Jews I know are moderate and not big fans of Israel. It is Conservative and Orthodox Jews in the U.S. who support Israel.

There is no doubt in my mind that Israel is all for the Iraq War and us being in the Middle East as it makes us the traget and not Israel. In a way I can't blame them in regards to their own self preservation, but as RP said in the debate last night - they have 200-300 nuclear warheads and can take care of themsleves.

I posted a thread a few days ago asking what this freedomswatch.org group was about with all their TV commercials from Iraq vets and family of those killed in 9/11 saying we must continue the "war" on terrorism. Well, a local paper had an article yesterday on the three biggest backers from Philly (freedomswatch.org has received over $15 million in private donations) and it turns out they were conervative Jewish businessmen (article did not point out they were Jewish, but I happen to know they are conservative Jews). Now maybe they just happen to believe in the so-called war on terror and this senseless war in Iraq, but I have a feeling they gave large sums of money to Freedoms Watch because they want the U.S. to keep fighting in the Middle East to distract Arab hatred from Israel.

Realize I am just making a point based on my observations. This is by no means an anti-semetic post, I have Jewish friends and am not an anti-semite, but I agree with RP - we should get out of the Middle East and Israel can take care of herself.

Otherwise, please keep this thread rational and within good taste and respect for other religious beliefs.

[disciple]

Alas, if the world but knew!

From the apocryphal "Fifth Vision" of Ezra

"Then I heard a voice which said to me: 'Look carefully at what you see before you.' I looked, and saw what seemed to be a lion roused from the forest; it roared as it came, and I heard it address the eagle in a human voice. 'Listen to what I tell you', it said. 'The Most High says to you: Are you not the only survivor of the four beasts to which I gave the rule over my world, intending through them to bring my ages to their end?

You are the fourth beast, and you have conquered all who went before, ruling over the whole world and holding it in the grip of fear and harsh oppression. You have lived long in the world, governing it with deceit and with no regard for truth. You have oppressed the gentle and injured the peaceful, hating the truthful and loving liars; you have destroyed the homes of the prosperous, and razed to the ground the walls of those who had done you no harm. Your insolence is known to the Most High, and your pride to the Mighty One.

The Most High has surveyed the periods he has fixed: they are now at an end, and his ages have reached their completion. So you, eagle, must now disappear and be seen no more, you and your terrible great wings, your evil small wings, your cruel heads, your grim talons, and your whole worthless body. Then all the earth will feel relief at its deliverance from your violence, and look forward hopefully to the judgement and mercy of its Creator.'

2Esdras 11:36-46

One thing, that Ron Paul supporters, hopefully, won't have:

"The Mark of the Beast"

[Mort]

I'll bet John Stewart praised Ron Paul's honesty and integrity because he's jewish.

Yes, all those attempting to blame the jews explain the above quote away.

[Mort]

Fuck that, man. This forum should be different. Israel is the reason Paul is treated like shit by the media.

Posts like this are idiotic. The dog wags the tail. The tail does not wag the dog. We control Israel much more than Israel controls us. We use our money as a carrot to manipulate them. Paul understands this.

[ARealConservative]

I hate these threads because they fail to see the big picture.

Zionist jews don't have enough political clout to do any of this. If it weren''t for the christian zionists - who believe their messiahs return relies on the safe haven of Israel and a clash of civilizations, we wouldn't be in any of this mess.


As for duel citizenship - it stinks.

[disciple]

Yes, all those attempting to blame the jews explain the above quote away.

I think and I pray that most of Ron Paul supporters are too enlightened and fair as not to generalize.

To equate Jews with Zionists is much like equating Germans with Nazis; Judaism is a religion while Zionism is a political ideology.

[disciple]

I hate these threads because they fail to see the big picture.

Zionist jews don't have enough political clout to do any of this. If it weren''t for the christian zionists - who believe their messiahs return relies on the safe haven of Israel and a clash of civilizations, we wouldn't be in any of this mess.


As for duel citizenship - it stinks.

And both are in for a big surprise.

[fj45lvr]

I hate these threads because they fail to see the big picture.

Zionist jews don't have enough political clout to do any of this. If it weren''t for the christian zionists - who believe their messiahs return relies on the safe haven of Israel and a clash of civilizations, we wouldn't be in any of this mess.



The "big picture" is clear....we have not followed reason and clearly as Washington explains we have allowed ourselves to get involved (by the bidding of others) in other nations quarrels....and chosen to show favoritism (unrational as it is) and we are reaping what we have sown. It isn't that hard to grasp. There is no "American" interests yet people are fooled to believe otherwise (also as Washington warns)....

If you go interview the people of the region as to America you will get the general opnion expressed real loud and clear.

[fj45lvr]

bump

[Rivington Essex]

Israel isn't the problem. Our politicians are the problem. You don't need to be anti-semetic to win, and we shouldn't want to even consider it.

There is a great book by George Ball called "A Passionate Attachment" Ball was an Assistant Secretary of State. It is about the costs, both tangible and intangible.

I think the US should be enganging Israel to make peace with the Palistinians. I also beleive it is possible and in Israels best interest. The US can play a part in saving the Jewish state by making them return to the 1967 borders .. or the 1947 borders.

Anti Semetic ranting makes me vomit.

[Politeia]

Judaism is a religion while Zionism is a political ideology.

Unfortunately, the distinction is not all that clear. Whether or not Judaism is a "religion" is a question that could require much discussion; but it is clear that Judaism is a tribal ideology, based in what can only be called racism: the primary test of whether or not one is a Jew is genetic, i.e. whether one is born of a Jewish mother, not a matter of belief or confession as in other religions.

Though there are certainly Jews who do not support Zionism (not many, but some), the fact remains that the roots of Zionism are in the main stream of Judaism, in their own "holy scriptures", which tell them (and us) unequivocally that they are the "chosen people", with a special relationship to G-d that places them above all others. And they certainly act on this assurance whenever they have the opportunity, conquering, enslaving, slaughtering any number of other peoples whose only "crime" is that they have something the Jews want, or are simply in their way.

Of course, in the historical period from which these scriptures date, this kind of attitude was normal in all tribal ideologies. For instance, in the novel Little Big Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Big_Man), we learn that the Cheyenne tribe refer to themselves in their own language as "the Human Beings", and to all others with rather less complimentary epithets. And also of course, this attitude is present in the psychology of all people, individuals as well as groups. However, the Jews seem to have both preserved this attitude from ancient times into the modern world, and perfected it in their relations with other peoples to an extent seldom equalled by another other human group.

As for the not-uncommon comparison between Naziism and Judaism, one might wonder where they Nazis got their ideas. Ironically, the Jews themselves were the original self-designated "master race", for whom all other peoples exist merely to be used or eradicated.

It is also ironic that while American Jews are in the forefront of "multicultural" consciousness and advocacy of "tolerance" of all kinds of people, they are also committed supporters (using the resources of all Americans, including the 97% who aren't Jewish) of the only openly, blatantly racist regime on the planet.

And the final irony is that those who are really behind Zionism (according to researchers whom I find to make a convincing case, though they are of course widely branded as nuts, etc.) are themselves only using the Jews, whom they intend eventually to destroy, along with a whole lot of others (e.g the United States as a nation and culture) in pursuit of their dreams of a New World Order, ruled by them in their interests.

Anyone with any sense should be able to see that the present policies of the Zionist colony in Palestine (along with its client state, the U.S.A.) are not healthy for its own well-being or even survival, but unfortunately the Jews themselves (except for a small minority), in their rabid enjoyment of their apparent triumph, are blind to the fact that they are simultaneously preparing the greatest tragedy in their tribal history.

The truth is, we will reap what we sow -- even the "chosen people".

[Mr. White]

You guys REALLY need to drop this Jewish bit. It's starting to piss me off. Say ZIONIST, that applies to all whom we are against. It's not fucking semantics, it's fact. ZIONISTS. I'm a damn agnostic well versed in our foreign policy and your blatant abuse of jewish people is turning me away.

[kenc9]

Israel and its US lobby are the reason we are in this disaster of a war. We are going bankrupt because of zionist neocons

google: USS Liberty and see what great "allies" the israelis are

It is quite a deeper problem than that, the Masons that were here that helped build this country were Masons from Israel and six Masons sat with George Washington as he was President running this country.

The Masons are the ones in control of the Federal Reserve Bank and why the Mason eye is printed on the back of our money.

So with this in light you see why Israel is our best friend, why we fight their battles and why we give them billions and why we gave the nukes.

The more you dig the uglier it gets!

-ken

[Giuliani was there on 911]

Posts like this are idiotic. The dog wags the tail. The tail does not wag the dog. We control Israel much more than Israel controls us. We use our money as a carrot to manipulate them. Paul understands this.

Since you called my post idiotic I'm gonna go ahead and you call you an idiot. You have no idea what you're talking about. And that is NOT what Ron Paul thinks. He believes the Israeli lobby has too much power over the United States and he intends to put and end to it. Israel controls us, not the other way around. I have no idea how somebody like you could be a Ron Paul supporter.

[scipio337]

Is there room for any more conspiracies in this thread? I think our violence against extraterrestrials (see Roswell) will lead to our downfall.

Guiliani, why were Israelis sitting idly by while Saddam was lobbing SCUDS into Israel, because the Rothschilds told them so?

This "Jews control America/caused 9/11" is the same old song with a slightly different tune.

[fj45lvr]

The point is that WE AS AMERICANS have been FOOLISH to not heed George WASHINGTONS ADVICE That is DEAD ON...(read Washington's comments on first post)... In this particular middle east issue the "roots" have alot to do with the unwise alliances of "favoritism" which is NOT a "temporary alliance" for extreme emergency.

That said there are tons of other examples in our FLAWED FOREIGN POLICY of favoritism and permanent alliances or propping up dictators and regimes ALL of which as WASHINGTON outlines is the work of folks taking "opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils." all IMHO for sinister motives (financial deals, political ties, usery and intimidation, etc. and etc.)

This is the opposite of what Washington outlays as setting an "example".....

[kenc9]

The point is that WE AS AMERICANS have been FOOLISH to not heed George WASHINGTONS ADVICE That is DEAD ON...(read Washington's comments on first post)... In this particular middle east issue the "roots" have alot to do with the unwise alliances of "favoritism" which is NOT a "temporary alliance" for extreme emergency.

That said there are tons of other examples in our FLAWED FOREIGN POLICY of favoritism and permanent alliances or propping up dictators and regimes ALL of which as WASHINGTON outlines is the work of folks taking "opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils." all IMHO for sinister motives (financial deals, political ties, usery and intimidation, etc. and etc.)

This is the opposite of what Washington outlays as setting an "example".....

True True True...

[Politeia]

Since you called my post idiotic I'm gonna go ahead and you call you an idiot. You have no idea what you're talking about.
I'd be careful if I were you about getting down to that level. Someone else may feel that you have no idea what you're talking about -- and they may be right. We all have much to learn.


And that is NOT what Ron Paul thinks. He believes the Israeli lobby has too much power over the United States and he intends to put and end to it.
I think this is an accurate characterization of Dr. Paul's view on the subject. And the beauty of it is that it covers the ground, without having to get deeper into it. Just return to the Constitution and the Founders' vision of a non-interventionist foreign policy, and the problem is solved. Let the Semitic tribes continue their age-old blood feuds without us.


Israel controls us, not the other way around.
Actually both views are accurate, depending on what level you're looking at. On the superficial level, it appears to many that Israel is a client state of the U.S. Look a little deeper, and it becomes clear the opposite is more the truth. Look deeper than that, however, and you'll find (at least I have) that both nations are controlled by forces and people who bear no allegiance to either, and intend to use us all (and slaughter most of us) in the pursuit of their aims.


I have no idea how somebody like you could be a Ron Paul supporter.
Please, let's not go there. The beauty of the Ron Paul Revolution is that it's drawing together so many people. If someone wants to support Ron Paul, I don't much care where they're coming from. If they're mistaken about Dr. Paul's positions, they will eventually figure it out, and either learn or leave. No reason to drive people off.

[disciple]

Your commentaries are impressive.

[disciple]

This was addressed to politeia.

[Politeia]

Your commentaries are impressive. ... This was addressed to politeia.

Thanks, disciple; sometimes I wonder if anyone reads them.

[disciple]

Thanks, disciple; sometimes I wonder if anyone reads them.



Some will, and will benefit immensely, no doubt.

[Mort]

ok, guys here it is straight from a Ron Paul interview.

http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id447.html

Congressman Ron Paul: The First Amendment grants all citizens the right to petition the U.S. government, and this applies to AIPAC as much as anyone else. However, I oppose certain lobbying groups having more of an undue influence than others, and since one of the main purposes of AIPAC is to lobby for generous taxpayer subsidies to Israel, that portion of their influence would end under my administration.


He does not itend to put an end to AIPAC lobbying in fact he says the opposite. He supports their first amendment rights.

He wants to remove subsidies to Israel which is the point I made. Ron Paul does not seem to be worried about "powers" beyond that by the AIPAC.

[Politeia]

ok, guys here it is straight from a Ron Paul interview. ... He does not itend to put an end to AIPAC lobbying in fact he says the opposite. He supports their first amendment rights.

Exactly. Ron Paul is spot on, as usual. In the USA, everyone has equal free speech rights, but no one has any right to use all the people's resources (money or otherwise) in the service of any private agenda.

I am a California-born, 60s hippie and draft-dodger, San Francisco Buddhist, organic fanatic now living in woo-woo, Spanish/Indian Santa Fe, New Mexico, a city which predates the founding of the USA by over 160 years -- save for Hawaii about as far outside White Anglo United States as one can get without actually leaving. When I met Dr. Paul in 1988, I realized that (a) he comes from a very different cultural background than I, but (b) unlike nearly everyone I've met from his cultural community, he was someone with whom I could have a mutually respectful, fruitful relationship. He is a truly good man, and I am thankful to have had an opportunity to meet him, to support him, and to see him get the recognition he deserves while he is still alive. God bless Ron Paul.