Huckabee: "Can't leave without honor"

[dircha]

Watching the feed with the focus group reaction meter, in a way I was just thoroughly disgusted to see them eating this up from Huckabee.

This lays their sentiment bare: to hell with the lives of the troops and our economic solvency, we won't leave until "the terrorists" cry uncle.

But what I don't understand, is why Ron Paul wasn't able to capitalize on this and articulate his position better? Yes, it's was despicable the way he was treated by the moderators, but he must articulate a winning, patriotic message or he has no chance of winning the nomination.

He touched on it when he asked rhetorically, "How many more American lives will we sacrifice to save face?"

But instead of focusing, he allowed the moderators to lead him off message, to the point that during the booing he went off on the war being illegal "under international law". And the booing and the focus group reaction only got worse.

It must be so frustrating for him. It makes me want to give up.

But Ron Paul can not win the nomination when he makes the legality of the war - certainly the legality by international law - the focus of his message. Can't be done. It's simple psychology. You can not win a national media debate on nuance. You can't win a media debate while you are on the defensive. When you are defending, you are losing. It's sad but true, you must always be on offense, you must attack, attack, attack.

[jpa]

Withdraw with honor was Nixon's 68 campaign slogan.

Huckabee = Nixon 2008

[richard1984]

I think that Huckabee was disgusting and dishonorable for saying that.


Ron Paul ended up kicking ass like a ninja. :D

[CJLauderdale4]

War on Terror = War for Honor

Nice job, Huckleberry...

[governmentwaste]

Ron Paul is a man of principal. That is why he is adored. He says the truth.

After WWII, the world turned to the UN to avoid these disasters. The neocons broke international law by invading Iraq.

Truth always wins out. Keep watching ....

[Kuldebar]

Just like we ended Vietnam with "honor"?

I guess that's what he means. Well, how long did Vietnam go on for? 1959 to 1975, hmm well, I guess we have some time to get that elusive "honor"...

[WhiteWhaleHolyGrail]

I love Ron Paul, but that exchange shows that in a television debate a more-charismatic less-logical answer will get a better response then a less-charismatic more-logical answer.

[richard1984]

I love Ron Paul, but that exchange shows that in a television debate a more-charismatic less-logical answer will get a better response then a less-charismatic more-logical answer.

Don't forget that Ron Paul won!

[jmarinara]

Guys those dial live action polls that you see with the line graph are not at all valid. They test an immediate response in real time with no accounting for the processing of information.

In other words, they test your emotional response, not your logical response. When people have even a few seconds to consider the ideas behind the war, they are on RP's side. When they listen to the platitudes of Huckabee (United States, not Divided States, etc.) they side with Huckabee. In the end, people don't vote on a whim real time decision. They at least think a little bit.

The only damage those polls do is to the people who don't think to begin with and take them seriously as some indicator of what others think of Paul. Those folks are close to hopeless anyway, so I'm not real worried.

[wbbgjr]

Also, did you notice how convenient it was that Fox cut off that "dial turning" segment before it measured the reaction to Ron Paul's "we are only there right now to save face" argument.

[wbbgjr]

Remember that Fox picked the "dial turners". They could have easily screened the dial turners so that only those that were "true republicans" were there. Ones that were war hawks.

[CJLauderdale4]

Just like we ended Vietnam with "honor"?

I guess that's what he means. Well, how long did Vietnam go on for? 1959 to 1975, hmm well, I guess we have some time to get that elusive "honor"...

Exactly!!!

And then Duncan Hunter chimes in, "Well, as long as it takes. Look how long we've been in Germany and Korea."

Is he serious?!?!?!?!

I wish Ron would tell the American people that the truth is the other candidates DON'T want our boys and girls home - they are approving the completion of 14 military bases in Iraq !!!!

For what? To leave??

[jmarinara]

Also, did you notice how convenient it was that Fox cut off that "dial turning" segment before it measured the reaction to Ron Paul's "we are only there right now to save face" argument.


Right, and your comment about how fox picks the dial turners is dead on too.

It's like Lennon (the dictator, not the singer) said "It's not who votes, but who counts the votes." Or something like that.

[Shellshock1918]

Watching the feed with the focus group reaction meter, in a way I was just thoroughly disgusted to see them eating this up from Huckabee.


A hand picked bunch by Fox with that douchebag pollster.

[cjhowe]

Re: the dial turners...on some of it the Moderates were more hawkish than the conservatives. Very strange.

[fj45lvr]

did you notice ghiuliani defined "winning" in Iraq during the debate: (from memory---help me with exact quote)"when they are working with us" or something to that effect...

I want to know what "winning", "victory" or "honor" is to these jokers....like we're on foreign soil trying to carve out a new slice of apple pie, baseball, and MTV???

The smokescreen is sooooo thick and people fall for this kind of BS.

What's so honorable about bashing in doors at night, frisking the inhabitants and rummaging through their belongings based on a "tip"??? I'm sure there is just a whole bunch of good will spreading around town about the "COPS".....it's a given fact that no one likes the cops until something happens when you want them!!

They all admit that when we pull out that they're going to have a power struggle....the only difference is that we won't be in the middle of it as a target.....in the mean time we'll just continue to spend money, have guys killed and maimed and postpone the REAL "elections" to see who will run things (the oil wells included).

[WhiteWhaleHolyGrail]

At least the war candidates were admitting it would require being there for a long time (except of course for the MSM's candidates).

Without a doubt Ron Paul appeals to the intellectual. I think his greatest challenge is appealing to the people who vote based on "feeling". When he doesn't dispute the statement about disbanding the CIA and FBI, I think that causes great concern for the "feeling" voters, who might feel unsafe by those actions.

[CJLauderdale4]

At least the war candidates were admitting it would require being there for a long time (except of course for the MSM's candidates).

Without a doubt Ron Paul appeals to the intellectual. I think his greatest challenge is appealing to the people who vote based on "feeling". When he doesn't dispute the statement about disbanding the CIA and FBI, I think that causes great concern for the "feeling" voters, who might feel unsafe by those actions.

True. I think this is going to bite them in the ass come primary time...

[dircha]

At least the war candidates were admitting it would require being there for a long time (except of course for the MSM's candidates).

Without a doubt Ron Paul appeals to the intellectual. I think his greatest challenge is appealing to the people who vote based on "feeling". When he doesn't dispute the statement about disbanding the CIA and FBI, I think that causes great concern for the "feeling" voters, who might feel unsafe by those actions.

Yes, and there was a newer angle coming across from a number of them too: Iraq is only one battle and we must not focus only on Iraq. We must expand the war to a global scale. We must wage a global war and confront Iran and Syria.

McCain, Tancredo, Romney, Huckabee.

And Newt and Fred are on this now too. I signed up for one of Newt's newsletters to keep tabs on him and he is just now launching a new initiative to support expanding the war.

And it was only last week I remember seeing an insider story claiming that Cheney had been giving the word out to thinktanks that now is the time to start making the case to expand the war to Iran.

We are being lead into military conflict with Iran.

[devil21]

The simple question to ask people who support the war and dont understand RP's view is "How many times were we attacked BEFORE we set up military bases and had Americans on Muslim Holy Land?". It always leaves them speechless since the answer is.....ZERO.

Huckabee was trying to appeal to the oohrah Marine types with the honor thing.

[dircha]

The simple question to ask people who support the war and dont understand RP's view is "How many times were we attacked BEFORE we set up military bases and had Americans on Muslim Holy Land?". It always leaves them speechless since the answer is.....ZERO.

Huckabee was trying to appeal to the oohrah Marine types with the honor thing.

You know I wish that worked. I wish people were reasonable.

But to the Republican base - of which I thought I was one - it seems that the war in Iraq is like supporting the hometown football team.

They hear what you say and they think that it is cowardly, especially in a crowd. They think we should go around the world and do whatever we want. They so badly want to believe that we can and should do this, that we should never back down, that they just eat it up when they hear it from candidates. To them it is a question of honor. We need to be the big macho guy who goes around beating other people up, and who is anyone to say that we shouldn't? Stupid, blind, honor.

[CJLauderdale4]

Huckabee was trying to appeal to the oohrah Marine types with the honor thing.

Yes, and that's why a response from RP like: "Well, if I'm so wrong on our military presence, why am I getting the most military contributions to my campaign than any of the rest of you?"

[john_anderson_ii]

Don't put too much thought into those lines. I was watching the debates with my in-laws who aren't really into politics. I kept my mouth shut while Faux was showing that part just to gauge the reaction. The only reaction I got was, "what do those lines mean?" Then as if on queue, the foxbot said, "That means Paul clearly lost this exchange." Then my mother in law says, "How did they figure that out, those lines don't look like they mean anything."

Thats the reaction I'm thinking was typical to all the non-politically minded who watched the debate.

Our position, while we are out campaigning is clear. The neocons want us to keep our husbands, wives, sons and daughters in Iraq until the party saves a little face, then we should bring them home.

I hear a lot of "coulda, woulda, shouldas" about what Paul should have said or done. I'm not complaining though. I'm sure Paul had 1,000,000 ideas run through his head in the span of a second, then he realized he'd already used 20% of his total speaking time to sort those ideas.

[CJLauderdale4]

Luntz says that RP lost, and then Alan Colmes goes to the Test Polling Results...
Nice!!!

[WhiteWhaleHolyGrail]

I hear a lot of "coulda, woulda, shouldas" about what Paul should have said or done. I'm not complaining though. I'm sure Paul had 1,000,000 ideas run through his head in the span of a second, then he realized he'd already used 20% of his total speaking time to sort those ideas.

Agreed, that must be incredibly difficult for him.

[Richandler]

Luntz says that RP lost, and then Alan Colmes goes to the Test Polling Results...
Nice!!!

Yah you can't really lose a debate unless it's one on one anyway. Pretty funny.

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, that was the only weak point. He shouldn't have raised the issue about the Republicans going to lose. That's not a good reason for leaving the war. I know he didn't mean it that way, but it left the door open for Huckabee.

[CJLauderdale4]

I have honor...does this mean I need to ship out now??

[CJLauderdale4]

I told my step-father - if you vote for any other candidate, then on the way to polling place, stop at Bob's Gun Rack, and buy my 16 year-old brother (his son) a 22 rifle, a 9mm pistol, and an AR-15 to practice with on his 3 acres. Better have him prepared because that's what you're voting for...

He got silent and changed the subject...

Try that one on your neocon family memebers who have teenagers...

[Tonymation]

Huckabee is no fool, and definitely not a stranger to debating. He knew exactly what he was doing when he confronted Ron Paul with taglines and slogans like, Honor, and United States, and One Nation Under God. He was pulling at the emotional strings of the public. People view these very recognizeable statements with heartfelt patriotism.

He knew that he would get amazing press, and excellent sound bytes from this exchange. Once he said all that he had rehearsed for that exchange, he immediately disengaged from Paul, and the moderators took their cue to cut the exchange off before Ron got out anything that would expose the complete lack of substance behind Huckabee's statements.

This was a very smart, and calculated exchange by Huckabee, and brilliant debate tactic. I think Paul handled it well, but could have landed a knock out punch to Huckabee had the moderators allowed him his rebuttle time.

His KO should have been more along the lines of calling Huckabee's statements for exactly what they are... anti-dissent propaganda.

[fj45lvr]

Yes, and that's why a response from RP like: "Well, if I'm so wrong on our military presence, why am I getting the most military contributions to my campaign than any of the rest of you?"

Neocon answer: because the volunteer military are cowards???

Guess what neocon idiots recruitment numbers are way down.....they have to offer 20k to sign up or a "chance to win an I-pod"!!! or offer citizenship to illegals for 2 years military service!!!!

What are they gonna do when they can't get the soldiers to save the "honor"???

let's see these fat old rich guys suit up and drive through some neighborhoods in 125 degree heat (taking pot shots) and crapping bricks whenever they drive by cardboard boxes!!!

We'll find out fast enough how "victory" is really defined when their ass is in the humvees.

[SWATH]

Yeah, that was the only weak point. He shouldn't have raised the issue about the Republicans going to lose. That's not a good reason for leaving the war. I know he didn't mean it that way, but it left the door open for Huckabee.

Actually given the current circumstances it would be because how are the Republicans going to continue the war for honor if they are voted out of office and the Dems end it or change venues? It will end regardless was his point, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

[libertarian4321]

Richard Milhouse Huckaby?

[Kuldebar]

Withdraw with honor was Nixon's 68 campaign slogan.

Huckabee = Nixon 2008

And, it was a good sentiment but we didn't leave Vietnam until 1975. I find Huckabee to be a likable guy and he does seem to have integrity, but his notion of honor and Iraq are wrong.

[Madison]

But Ron Paul can not win the nomination when he makes the legality of the war - certainly the legality by international law - the focus of his message.

Can anyone tell me if this is factually correct or not? Is the U.S. in any international agreements that makes the statement "we violated international law by going into Iraq" true?

[Thunderbolt]

...

[Nefertiti]

I'm not sure whether it helped RP, but Huckabee's remarks hurt the rest of the Republicans in general in my opinion. Basically he admitted that none of them can win the general election because of their hair-brained attitude toward the war. He knows the neocon ship is sinking, but they still believe in what they are doing and so they want to put up a good fight rather than die by surrendering to the will of the American people.