C4l - read this now!

[gunjin22]

I really cant believe the slack many of you are giving to the new C4L website layout.
First in my opinion the new C4L website is totally under par compared to the work of Terra Eclipse. I knew back when I saw it at the Leadership Summit that it was lacking quite a bit. Many Congressional Coordinators had many questions which John Tate failed to answer along with not really networking the grassroots activists that attended the Leadership Summit. Till this day, I am unaware of the total size and scope of the C4L, all I know is John Tate is still the Director. There should be a page of each person working for the C4L with a picture and description of their role in the C4L.
I talked to fellow activists in my area today and they expressed concern about people who are givin the C4L $35 , therefore bypassing supporting grassroots activists. This whole new system and all seems pretty top-down to me. I ask what is so much better about the C4L website compared to a Facebook group as far as networking goes locally? It doesnt make sense to bypass your local grassroots activists, I understood that awhile back when people kept givin to the Ron Paul Presidential Campaign and I was like, how are we suppose to fund grassroots efforts if we give alot of our money to the national campaign? In my area we had to repeatedly call up the RP campaign office for supplies and finally when we did get 50,000 slimjims they werent even the right ones for this area. Also to note I was in southern California for a week or so and contacted fellow RP supporters and they expressed the same lack of grassroots support in regard to campaign supplies.
The bottom line is that the money people give to the C4L will not trickle down locally to the grassroots. A good friend put it very simply "Its a competition for resources needed here on the local level and if you are looking at it purely from a resources standpoint - C4L is not a good thing for us". The new C4L system serves to divide the small number of continued supporters.
I dont understand how things worked out system wise, first back in like January we finally got the precinct leader program,then that was deleted when RP suspended his campaign back in June, also we were signed up with ronpaul2008.com, then we signed up to be a member of C4L, and now we are having to sign up again for the precinct leader program, but this time it costs $35 for full functionality!
I am not normally critical of the C4L but this was it for me. This future of the C4L should be a bottom-up organization with each state having their own C4L.
Three states have done it, that I am aware of.
http://PAcampaignforliberty.com
http://CampaignforLouisiana.com
http://CampaignforTexas.com
If there are others post them here.
*************10/3/08 UPDATE TOPIC**************
I have not heard one thing discussed by the C4L about the YAL(Young Americans for Liberty) , turns out Ron Paul gave money to the Leadership Institute and is targeting college kids to start YAL chapters at their schools. Why has there been no mention of this from Ron Paul specifically? I received an email from a Reese Talley telling me, he would take me to dinner, and all this other kind of stuff about starting a YAL chapter at my college. And he explained how my chapter could get thousands of dollars to host forums and to get books and other supplies. Meanwhile, I am thinking to myself, this is another thing that the C4L/Ron Paul is not networking with the grassroots about. Then turns out, the kid that is the new YAL chapter leader at my school hasnt done a thing with the Ron Paul campaign in my city. He didnt even network with any of the real activists/organizers of the meetup groups. There is an apparent disconnect between C4L/Ron Paul/ and the grassroots.
Peace,Robert

[ItsTime]

If you want grassroots money you have to earn it in the grassroots. If you want grassroots supplies you have to earn it in the grassroots.

[parke]

Membership is free.. if you want tools and the extra bells and whistles its $35/yr. It equates to less than $3/mo. Thats not bad considering what we get and what our movement needs.

Im not crying over it. Things cost money, its that simple.

[newyearsrevolution08]

If you want grassroots money you have to earn it in the grassroots. If you want grassroots supplies you have to earn it in the grassroots.

very deep

[jake]

$35.00 is pretty reasonable. get some of your local meetup members to chip in $5 each or something for the precinct leader..

[newyearsrevolution08]

Membership is free.. if you want tools and the extra bells and whistles its $35/yr. It equates to less than $3/mo. Thats not bad considering what we get and what our movement needs.

Im not crying over it. Things cost money, its that simple.

Also the only person who needs to pay will be the precinct leaders and those who want to be more ACTIVE in the efforts.

A precinct leader can also ask the local grassroots in their area and ask to help pay for supplies and everything. It isn't like everyone in your ron paul group needs to go out and pay $35 a year either, only the local organizer, group leader, precinct leader or whatever title they currently have.

[gunjin22]

Shaking my head, the above posters clearly indicate that you all did not comprehend what I explained. The C4L is dividing us and is not encouraging grassroots to network together in terms of resources. Simply put, on the C4L site with the US map, you could simply put a facebook group up for each state. The facebook system would network everyone together via mutual friends and all. And each state would handle their own respective groups. There was no need to try to create a seperate system that takes away $35 from the grassroots and just funds a certain group of individuals.

[jcarcinogen]

Why are we even talking about the c4l site? Irrelevant. This can be discussed when Congress goes on vacation in a few days.

Its easy to make a drupal site that is much cheaper than paying a place like Terra Eclipse, I agree but whatever.

[Sandra]

The precinct program didn't get the interest of the grassroots when it was free on the RP2008 site. At a 35.00 fee it's gone. Precinct work is a lot of walking and sweat. The setup of the RonPaul2008 website was efficient because the PDF files were stored for the grassroots to print.

Now to say that we are restricted from that information needed to proliferate the C4L site unless we come up with 35.00 is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Not a wise decision at all.

[gunjin22]

Wow, finally getting some people who understand what I am talking about.
Just because we believe in Ron Paul doesnt mean we need to be Liberty Sheeple and follow the C4L. They are misguided. Talk to your state Congressional coordinators who attended the Leadership Summit and they will tell you. Thats if they are even around anymore, most have fallen off the radar.

[tmg19103]

The NRA was recenly declared the most powerful lobby in Washinbgton. How did they do it? Over 4 million dues paying members paying about the same as you would with C4L and with millions more who don't pay but who support the issues.

Yeah, I know lobbyiests are part of the broken system, but we need to play within the system until we can fix it.

In the meantime the grassroots can and will continue full steam ahead.

[shesapainter]

The precinct program didn't get the interest of the grassroots when it was free on the RP2008 site. At a 35.00 fee it's gone. Precinct work is a lot of walking and sweat. The setup of the RonPaul2008 website was efficient because the PDF files were stored for the grassroots to print.

Now to say that we are restricted from that information needed to proliferate the C4L site unless we come up with 35.00 is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Not a wise decision at all.

I agree.

[hotbrownsauce]

The C4L organization hasn't fully taken off yet, it's been a very slow start over the last few months. Before I pass judgment I'll wait until I see what their final product is and make some valued judgments then.

[hotbrownsauce]

I can say that during the Nomination phase to get Ron Paul as the Nominee I didn't know what the heck was going on. I think their could have been more organization. Glad I did it and was an Alternate Delegate for Ron Paul cause I learned a lot. I learned that the grassroots activities such as the March on Washington back in July was very organized. Would it be a leap to say the grassroots is more organized than the people working with Paul?

[dr. hfn]

I agree partly, the money should be optional and everyone should have full access to the site tools and stuff.

The tools on the site better be very useful and moddable for our purposes. Able to cordinate locally and nationally all in one.

Also, the C4L MUST support and give money to grassroots operations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tonimarek]

Robert,

Did you sign up?

I did and while I agree with ou on some things, once you sign up there are tools and very intricate details that a person has to go through to get materials.

Yeah - this is annoying - BUT this also builds their database that will only help us in the future.

I am not a Sheeple.

I happen to like the tools it provides. I like the structure it provides and it allows for people to start working where they are at - regardless if there is a meetup group there or not.

You forget that 90% of Texas doesn't live in a huge metropolis area. A lot of people don't belong to a Meetup because they don't have onoe close eough to participate in.

I feel that the CFL will help bring in way more help and grassroots activists than the Meetups.

How many times have you driven 100's of miles to go set up meetup groups in far off towns and counties?

We have a LOT of them (even here in CD14). This is a way to rein them in... IMO.

[Gray Seal]

I am not clear as to how CFL is controlled. John Tate is the director but who controls John Tate?

We do need to emphasis grassroots. Still, there needs to be some sort of structure to keep us all networked nation wide.

It seems rather obscure presently. I am not sure why there sees to be a veil. Could it be there are some people in charge who are more concerned with protecting their position than keeping the organization open?

I would like to know that the expenditures of CFL will be available on our site.

[Vote Waterman 2028]

Shaking my head, the above posters clearly indicate that you all did not comprehend what I explained. The C4L is dividing us and is not encouraging grassroots to network together in terms of resources. Simply put, on the C4L site with the US map, you could simply put a facebook group up for each state. The facebook system would network everyone together via mutual friends and all. And each state would handle their own respective groups. There was no need to try to create a seperate system that takes away $35 from the grassroots and just funds a certain group of individuals.

I think this well also help ween out the people who come on threads like these and post bullshit info to throw off the efforts of the real supporters. So what certain group of individuals is this funding?

[Terces]

Hmm... yes all very interesting.

I personally know the owner of the company who designed the new CFL site... I happened to meet him at the Rally for the Republic and went out to the bar for a couple of nights with him. I own a business and do website design as well so we talked a lot about the website.

He told me he was severely frustrated. He was having major problems communicating with anyone within the CFL. By the way it sounds, it has become very bureaucratic, personal, etc... not unlike our current Congress today. He didn't really feel that the CFL was really for the people, for us. It was disheartening to hear, and he was at his wit-ends trying to get the site to be grassroots, from the bottom up, and was about to quit the project because his passion was dying fast. My bro and a few other friends joined in on the conversation and we really encouraged him to stick with it and to get his vision accomplished.

Anyways... thought posting this might shed some light. There definitely is some differences of opinion within the CFL and unfortunately the internals of the CFL might be looking more and more like the internals of the Libertarian party... if you know what I mean. I'm not sour, nor dour, and actually never wanted to say anything because I wanted to believe the best... but maybe it's time to spill some of what I know.

If anyone has any ideas to make this work... I'm all ears! I have his contact info so I can directly talk to him.

[FindLiberty]

The C-4-L train is just leaving the station and I see many signs pointing to an early train wreck...

[MRoCkEd]

I do think the member fee is reasonable. I am confident they are going to be reeling out new tools.
The problem is that the design sucks!!!

[Terces]

Yes, we all need to remember that it truly is us who make this site. If we voice our displeasure and our praise they will be heard. I'm confident that everything will turn out ok; I just hope that the CFL really taps into the full potential that it has instead of... falling off the tracks.

[Chiznaddy]

Hold on, a different, user-based and free site is coming soon...it is independent of the CFL, but of course will be supportive of them and their cause.

It is much more advance than the CFL site and was offered to CFL, but turned down because it was Free, had a voting system, etc...

I don't want to play blame games or articulate my difference of opinion w/ CFL choices because, at the end of the day, its their organization and they get to choose what they want.

More details to come.

[evilfunnystuff]

http://www.freedom-force.org/

i like these guys they dont really have a networking site thou7gh they do connect members with each other via email but it is much more grassroots oriented and is "holographic" so that if something happens to ruin destroy or corrupt certain chapter(s) that it is self regenerating and encourages you to not blindly trust your leaders

[LibertyEagle]

The precinct program didn't get the interest of the grassroots when it was free on the RP2008 site. At a 35.00 fee it's gone. Precinct work is a lot of walking and sweat. The setup of the RonPaul2008 website was efficient because the PDF files were stored for the grassroots to print.

Now to say that we are restricted from that information needed to proliferate the C4L site unless we come up with 35.00 is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Not a wise decision at all.

Well, I think this was an effort to keep out some of the trolls. Sure, if they're bound and determined they'll pay the $35 and go at it, but most probably will not.

[penguin]

Shaking my head, the above posters clearly indicate that you all did not comprehend what I explained. The C4L is dividing us and is not encouraging grassroots to network together in terms of resources. Simply put, on the C4L site with the US map, you could simply put a facebook group up for each state. The facebook system would network everyone together via mutual friends and all. And each state would handle their own respective groups. There was no need to try to create a seperate system that takes away $35 from the grassroots and just funds a certain group of individuals.

I think I get what your saying. If I had a local group, our funds would be dedicated to local issues that are inline with the overall group. Abolishing the state income tax would actually have funds and the Republican running against Barney Frank would be a Ron Paul supporter. Is this what your talking about?

[AJ Antimony]

One problem IMO is that C4L hasn't been clear at all so far. They launched in what, June?, and still don't look like anything special. For months they've talked to us about all these special, awesome, super helpful features they're going to have but they're still not here.

They finally relaunch the website, and all I see is contact info for Congresspeople, a small Youtube at the top that I can barely see, an oddly organized Q&A/forum section, a blog, and coordinators who weren't elected (at least I didn't have a ballot). Oh, and nowhere on the website does it actually say what's in the Precinct Leader program.

So yes, as it stands right now, I find the fee laughable. Unless they add several useful features, I can't see what the fee is actually paying for. I can find Congress contact info anywhere else, this forum DOMINATES all, and blogs are everywhere. IMO people should be growing impatient and a little angry about the fee.

[Rhys]

it's a second rate site.... no doubt about it... hard to read, hard to use... but i'm torn on the membership fee. Ultimately, I hope that we're not talking about the C4L being a place that comes up with cool webpages. if they actually do any political work and not just blog posts, someday soon, it will take money.

[gunjin22]

Appreciate all the feedback this thread has been getting. I am updating my first post with information about the YAL(Young Americans for Liberty)
I have not heard one thing discussed by the C4L about the YAL(Young Americans for Liberty) , turns out Ron Paul gave money to the Leadership Institute and is targeting college kids to start YAL chapters at their schools. Why has there been no mention of this from Ron Paul specifically? I received an email from a Reese Talley telling me, he would take me to dinner, and all this other kind of stuff about starting a YAL chapter at my college. And he explained how my chapter could get thousands of dollars to host forums and to get books and other supplies. Meanwhile, I am thinking to myself, this is another thing that the C4L/Ron Paul is not communicating with the grassroots about. Then turns out, the kid that is the new YAL chapter leader at my school hasnt done a thing with the Ron Paul campaign in my city. He didnt even network with any of the real activists/organizers of the meetup groups. There is an apparent disconnect between C4L/Ron Paul/ and the grassroots.
Peace,Robert

[shesapainter]

I think this well also help ween out the people who come on threads like these and post bullshit info to throw off the efforts of the real supporters. So what certain group of individuals is this funding?

Were you at the Tea Party in Boston? the Revolution March? Real Politics Training or Leadership Summit? the Rally for the Republic? This person was at all of these things. I won't give you his resume, but you should not say things like this without knowing the person and if they are a "real supporter" or not.

[BlueCalico]

Oh, for God's sake, stop your whining and crying. The C4L just started up. Have you actually proposed solutions to them or are you just using this forum as a bitch session?

Grow up.

[BlueCalico]

The C-4-L train is just leaving the station and I see many signs pointing to an early train wreck...

Do you have any real suggestions for the C4L or just making general statements?

[ronpaulhawaii]

Do you have any real suggestions for the C4L or just making general statements?

I've got a suggestion. They could stop lurking here and start answering valid questions/concerns.

[nobody's_hero]

I'm seeing minor improvements here and there (I can finally click to see a list of everyone in my state—instead of just knowing how many members of C4L there are in Georgia, I can click and actually see their screen-names), but I don't think the C4L website is going to be much use to us for the 2008 election anyway. Hopefully, they'll work the kinks out, and we'll have a really useful tool to coordinate for the 2010 congressional election.

I want it to be more than a news source, and I think its creators wanted it to be more, too.

Time will tell.

[MRoCkEd]

I got this reply from c4l:


After reviewing the cost of web design companies, it has been decided to develop functionality over format at this time. We hope to improve the appearance in the near future. Your comments are appreciated.
--
Deb Wells
Campaign for Liberty

[yoshimaroka]

If you want help, I'm good at Photoshop and can volunteer.

Check your PM

[shesapainter]

I've got a suggestion. They could stop lurking here and start answering valid questions/concerns.

Like on what and how is the $35 used?

[constituent]

oh, for god's sake, stop your whining and crying. The c4l just started up.

in june!

[constituent]

they could stop lurking here and start answering valid questions/concerns.

troll! Divider! Heretic!

</sarcasm>

[StateofTrance]

Let the grassroots handle all these web activities than some 2 cents bureaucratic chump.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Wow I'm sure glad to see this. I expressed my concerns awhile back and was labeled a troll...if you question it you go in the troll bin and I'm probably ignored by a lot of folk on here. I don't see the significance of paying 35 dollars to be able to access tools etc...if this is a GRASSROOTS EFFORT. I guarantee you eventually the "tools" will cost you money also. Someone told me a little while back this wastn' a "welfare" organization <eyeroll> I heard these folk runnin C4L were also tied to Restore the Republic...another internet marketing endeavor. Why , with all of the expertise of the grassroots in web design, did the C4L people turn down FREE assistance...which would probably have made the website much better? I love the message..and I dont' consider activists should have to PAY for the tools to be active! This isn't grass roots whatsoever..is is probably a TOP DOWN created by a clique of people who found a way to make a living through the enthusiastic efforts of people who believe in a cause. All of this activism could be done on the local level..you MUST keep your money on the local level and work that way rather than send your dough to the national internet marketing effort. Sorry..but I have to agree with the skeptics. C4L has cut the grass roots activism out..seems like. Sad to see it. I think there should be acountability and oversight at least. tones (I hope i dont' get banned)

[ronpaulhawaii]

I got this reply from c4l:

Why is cost an issue when we have an army of people willing to work for free?

Something doesn't add up...

[tonesforjonesbones]

That's right...we are the footsoldiers..why are you charging your army if you want to get a message out? YOu don't even have to pay for a meet up. Yahoogroups does the same thing for free...you can set up your meetings and automatic reminders..everything..for FREE. This endeavor MUST be done from teh bottom UP...the money really needs to be kept at the local level. If you want to get the message out STOP copywriting your dvd's etc...and allow the grassroots to be able to copy them on their own. the groups on the local level can print out ONE copy of a fliar and go to office depot and make tons of black and white copies for very little money. The message is what is important...not a full color brochure. Vista print is a great tool..I use it all the time. You can get a lot of free materials there and just pay shipping, I get 250 business cards, 100 post cards, a free rubber stamp. Gotta pay shipping but it's well worth it for what you get. I'm going to put together a program called "Grassroots Activism on a Shoestring" lololl. I LOVE The message...that's the most important thing...and that should be free to all! tones

[ronpaulhawaii]

That's right...we are the footsoldiers..why are you charging your army if you want to get a message out? YOu don't even have to pay for a meet up. Yahoogroups does the same thing for free...you can set up your meetings and automatic reminders..everything..for FREE. This endeavor MUST be done from teh bottom UP...the money really needs to be kept at the local level. If you want to get the message out STOP copywriting your dvd's etc...and allow the grassroots to be able to copy them on their own. the groups on the local level can print out ONE copy of a fliar and go to office depot and make tons of black and white copies for very little money. The message is what is important...not a full color brochure. Vista print is a great tool..I use it all the time. You can get a lot of free materials there and just pay shipping, I get 250 business cards, 100 post cards, a free rubber stamp. Gotta pay shipping but it's well worth it for what you get. I'm going to put together a program called "Grassroots Activism on a Shoestring" lololl. I LOVE The message...that's the most important thing...and that should be free to all! tones

Me-thinks you are making a mountain out of a molehill regarding the $35... Most orgs collect "dues" from members. Further, I find your continued objections, on this one point, a petty distraction.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Skeptics are always distractions aren't they? Ever heard of the Delphi Technique? That's where "facilitators" separate those who are raising points and questions against the perceived goal...and commence to make them seem like the "bad guy"..you know, saying to them they are a "distraction" etc. Here, I'll post it for ya. It's not the 35 bucks...it's the loss of grassroots activism. Sure, all of those guys charge dues...but you really don't have to do ya in these difficult economic times? Believe me, lol...I sent an email to Freedom Force also about this too. Why not just ask for donations, but don't block those who choose not to donate..or can't afford to pay from being able to fully particiapte. Heck...if you cap it at 35 bucks...rather than making it a "love offering" ...you might lose money. Someone might have donated 100 bucks...I like the donation idea. It would all balance out. Here is the Delphi Technique:

Using the Delphi Technique to Achieve Consensus

How it is leading us away from representative government to an illusion of citizen participation

The Delphi Technique and consensus building are both founded in the same principle - the Hegelian dialectic of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis, with synthesis becoming the new thesis. The goal is a continual evolution to "oneness of mind" (consensus means solidarity of belief) -the collective mind, the wholistic society, the wholistic earth, etc. In thesis and antithesis, opinions or views are presented on a subject to establish views and opposing views. In synthesis, opposites are brought together to form the new thesis. All participants in the process are then to accept ownership of the new thesis and support it, changing their views to align with the new thesis. Through a continual process of evolution, "oneness of mind" will supposedly occur.

In group settings, the Delphi Technique is an unethical method of achieving consensus on controversial topics. It requires well-trained professionals, known as "facilitators" or "change agents," who deliberately escalate tension among group members, pitting one faction against another to make a preordained viewpoint appear "sensible," while making opposing views appear ridiculous.

In her book Educating for the New World Order, author and educator Beverly Eakman makes numerous references to the need of those in power to preserve the illusion that there is "community participation in decision-making processes, while in fact lay citizens are being squeezed out."

The setting or type of group is immaterial for the success of the technique. The point is that, when people are in groups that tend to share a particular knowledge base, they display certain identifiable characteristics, known as group dynamics, which allows the facilitator to apply the basic strategy.

The facilitators or change agents encourage each person in a group to express concerns about the programs, projects, or policies in question. They listen attentively, elicit input from group members, form "task forces," urge participants to make lists, and in going through these motions, learn about each member of a group. They are trained to identify the "leaders," the "loud mouths," the "weak or non-committal members," and those who are apt to change sides frequently during an argument.

Suddenly, the amiable facilitators become professional agitators and "devil's advocates." Using the "divide and conquer" principle, they manipulate one opinion against another, making those who are out of step appear "ridiculous, unknowledgeable, inarticulate, or dogmatic." They attempt to anger certain participants, thereby accelerating tensions. The facilitators are well trained in psychological manipulation. They are able to predict the reactions of each member in a group. Individuals in opposition to the desired policy or program will be shut out.

The Delphi Technique works. It is very effective with parents, teachers, school children, and community groups. The "targets" rarely, if ever, realize that they are being manipulated. If they do suspect what is happening, they do not know how to end the process. The facilitator seeks to polarize the group in order to become an accepted member of the group and of the process. The desired idea is then placed on the table and individual opinions are sought during discussion. Soon, associates from the divided group begin to adopt the idea as if it were their own, and they pressure the entire group to accept their proposition.

How the Delphi Technique Works

Consistent use of this technique to control public participation in our political system is causing alarm among people who cherish the form of government established by our Founding Fathers. Efforts in education and other areas have brought the emerging picture into focus.

In the not-too-distant past, the city of Spokane, in Washington state, hired a consultant to the tune of $47,000 to facilitate the direction of city government. This development brought a hue and cry from the local population. The ensuing course of action holds an eerie similarity to what is happening in education reform. A newspaper editorial described how groups of disenfranchised citizens were brought together to "discuss" what they felt needed to be changed at the local government level. A compilation of the outcomes of those "discussions" influenced the writing of the city/county charter.

That sounds innocuous. But what actually happened in Spokane is happening in communities and school districts all across the country. Let's review the process that occurs in these meetings.

First, a facilitator is hired. While his job is supposedly neutral and non-judgmental, the opposite is actually true. The facilitator is there to direct the meeting to a preset conclusion.

The facilitator begins by working the crowd to establish a good-guy-bad-guy scenario. Anyone disagreeing with the facilitator must be made to appear as the bad guy, with the facilitator appearing as the good guy. To accomplish this, the facilitator seeks out those who disagree and makes them look foolish, inept, or aggressive, which sends a clear message to the rest of the audience that, if they don't want the same treatment, they must keep quiet. When the opposition has been identified and alienated, the facilitator becomes the good guy - a friend - and the agenda and direction of the meeting are established without the audience ever realizing what has happened.

Next, the attendees are broken up into smaller groups of seven or eight people. Each group has its own facilitator. The group facilitators steer participants to discuss preset issues, employing the same tactics as the lead facilitator.
Participants are encouraged to put their ideas and disagreements on paper, with the results to be compiled later. Who does the compiling? If you ask participants, you typically hear: "Those running the meeting compiled the results." Oh-h! The next question is: "How do you know that what you wrote on your sheet of paper was incorporated into the final outcome?" The typical answer is: "Well, I've wondered about that, because what I wrote doesn't seem to be reflected. I guess my views were in the minority."

That is the crux of the situation. If 50 people write down their ideas individually, to be compiled later into a final outcome, no one knows what anyone else has written. That the final outcome of such a meeting reflects anyone's input at all is highly questionable, and the same holds true when the facilitator records the group's comments on paper. But participants in these types of meetings usually don't question the process.

Why hold such meetings at all if the outcomes are already established? The answer is because it is imperative for the acceptance of the School-to-Work agenda, or the environmental agenda, or whatever the agenda, that ordinary people assume ownership of the preset outcomes. If people believe an idea is theirs, they'll support it. If they believe an idea is being forced on them, they'll resist.

The Delphi Technique is being used very effectively to change our government from a representative form in which elected individuals represent the people, to a "participatory democracy" in which citizens selected at large are facilitated into ownership of preset outcomes. These citizens believe that their input is important to the result, whereas the reality is that the outcome was already established by people not apparent to the participants.

[tonesforjonesbones]

I got that Delphi Technique from the FREEDOM FORCE website. I'm not implying that C4L is doing this...I just don't want to be banned from raising questions and having concern for the loss of our GRASS ROOTS activism...that's all. I m not the enemy..not at all. I am FOR the Liberty movement. TONES

[ronpaulhawaii]

I got that Delphi Technique from the FREEDOM FORCE website. I'm not implying that C4L is doing this...I just don't want to be banned from raising questions and having concern for the loss of our GRASS ROOTS activism...that's all. I m not the enemy..not at all. I am FOR the Liberty movement. TONES

Banned ??? GMAB :rolleyes:

ISTM that the majority do not have a problem with the $35. Further, it seems a petty complaint compared to other issues.

RE- the delphi technique, who are you implying is doing this? Me? LOL...

[tonesforjonesbones]

loll...welll..kinda sorta...but I dont' think it's an agenda. I am not the enemy. I want to preserve the grassroots activism...it was a wonderful thing. That's what seemed to generate the excitement, ya know..everyone had the freedom to generate their own ideas ..not follow some kind of program. I am not against the Liberty movement..i want to see grassroots activism preserved..you know, at the local level. That's all . It's really not about money. tones

[ronpaulhawaii]

loll...welll..kinda sorta...but I dont' think it's an agenda. I am not the enemy. I want to preserve the grassroots activism...it was a wonderful thing. That's what seemed to generate the excitement, ya know..everyone had the freedom to generate their own ideas ..not follow some kind of program. I am not against the Liberty movement..i want to see grassroots activism preserved..you know, at the local level. That's all . It's really not about money. tones

One of the problems I have with C4L is the claim that they are building a bottom-up grassroots network. The reality has seemed quite the opposite. So, it seems, we agree on a deeper level. That is why I have made a point about the $35. It is just a surface issue, it is not going to be changed, and harping on it seems counter-productive to our aims...

Asking how the money will be used seems far more relevant...

[AZ Libertarian]

Hmm... yes all very interesting.

I personally know the owner of the company who designed the new CFL site... I happened to meet him at the Rally for the Republic and went out to the bar for a couple of nights with him. I own a business and do website design as well so we talked a lot about the website.

He told me he was severely frustrated. He was having major problems communicating with anyone within the CFL. By the way it sounds, it has become very bureaucratic, personal, etc... not unlike our current Congress today. He didn't really feel that the CFL was really for the people, for us. It was disheartening to hear, and he was at his wit-ends trying to get the site to be grassroots, from the bottom up, and was about to quit the project because his passion was dying fast. My bro and a few other friends joined in on the conversation and we really encouraged him to stick with it and to get his vision accomplished.

Anyways... thought posting this might shed some light. There definitely is some differences of opinion within the CFL and unfortunately the internals of the CFL might be looking more and more like the internals of the Libertarian party... if you know what I mean. I'm not sour, nor dour, and actually never wanted to say anything because I wanted to believe the best... but maybe it's time to spill some of what I know.

If anyone has any ideas to make this work... I'm all ears! I have his contact info so I can directly talk to him.

Glad I heard this. One more for the list...

R3VOLUTION!

[shesapainter]

What list?