sooner or later all government turns corrupt, why dont liberals understand

[nbhadja]

*By liberals anyone who is for big government, including both republicans and democrats because they are both technically liberals as they support big government.

It is a fact that eventually all government becomes corrupt. That is just the way it is. Some rich corrupt freedom hating group will work their way to the top of the government and take it over. If big government facist freedom haters can manage to take over the once freedom loving small government of the US then they can take over any government in the world.

So even if say Dennis K (or any other well intentioned big government politician) were to have his way and make the country the way he wants it, which is much better than the awful fascist current state but overall ineffective compared to the RP vision of free market) the government would be given great power in his plan.

Well if it is so powerful it is only a matter of time before corrupt people take over the government and use that immense power they hold against the people instead of for the people. Not every politician will be well intentioned like Dennis K is. In fact most will be the opposite.

Not to mention the ineffectiveness of the big government halting the free market.

[angelatc]

Because it is the Republicans who are corrupt. Duh. :)

[werdd]

because they fundmentally disagree with republicans and bush, but they support the same bailout.

[nbhadja]

Because it is the Republicans who are corrupt. Duh. :)

Well both Republicans and Democrats are equally corrupt, there is no difference between them.

I was just using the word liberal as opposed to the "big government supporterss" because there was not enough room in the title.

And as far as I am concerned, most of the "republicans" are actually liberals. I refuse to call big government politicians/supporters republicans because they are actually liberal.

So I stand by my title actually, we have 2 major parties in America...the liberals...and the liberals...

[acptulsa]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1394926&postcount=11

[Truth Warrior]

Probably for the very same kinds of "reasons" ( so called <???> ) that the rest of the "voters" do not understand.<IMHO> ;)


"We shall get nowhere until we start by recognizing that political behavior is largely non-rational, that the world is suffering from some kind of mental disease which must be diagnosed before it can be cured. " -- George Orwell

[SnappleLlama]

Paging Dr. Kade....Dr. Kade, to the emergency room, please....

[Truth Warrior]

"The system is corrupt, beyond redemption, and is not worthy of my support!"

[kojirodensetsu]

People don't understand because they don't want to understand. People just think like "oh people should be nice to homeless people" so they want the government to take care of them. That's as far as they think. And when someone messes up they blame the person and vote for the next person that makes those promises.

There is also an "us versus them" mentality that keeps people in their political party. A lot of people don't vote for someone, they vote against someone.

I think that Stop and Look video put it in a good way. Everyone is pretty much trying to make the best life possible for themselves and their countrymen. Democrats think that the government should help people. Republicans think that the government should protect people (even if it means invading other countries without much evidence). However the difference between them and the libertarians/paleoconservative is that we've done our homework and have seen how democratic/republican policies have made this nation worse. The people who haven't done their homework think they can fix the corrupt system.

I used to be a democrat (I voted for John Kerry in 04 *shudder*). My parents were democrats and I was just going along with them. Also in public school all my government teachers were democrats. I didn't really have an unbiased opinion to lead me in the right way. I figured out to think for myself when I was voting for this one initiative for my city. It was to ban businesses from having gambling. My mom was for banning it. But I said to myself "why should people not be allowed to gamble? nobody is forcing them to." So I voted against it. And the initiative lost by 1 vote. :D

[Truth Warrior]

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasjeff125003.html)

[Truth Warrior]

People don't understand because they don't want to understand. People just think like "oh people should be nice to homeless people" so they want the government to take care of them. That's as far as they think. And when someone messes up they blame the person and vote for the next person that makes those promises.

There is also an "us versus them" mentality that keeps people in their political party. A lot of people don't vote for someone, they vote against someone.

I think that Stop and Look video put it in a good way. Everyone is pretty much trying to make the best life possible for themselves and their countrymen. Democrats think that the government should help people. Republicans think that the government should protect people (even if it means invading other countries without much evidence). However the difference between them and the libertarians/paleoconservative is that we've done our homework and have seen how democratic/republican policies have made this nation worse. The people who haven't done their homework think they can fix the corrupt system.

I used to be a democrat (I voted for John Kerry in 04 *shudder*). My parents were democrats and I was just going along with them. Also in public school all my government teachers were democrats. I didn't really have an unbiased opinion to lead me in the right way. I figured out to think for myself when I was voting for this one initiative for my city. It was to ban businesses from having gambling. My mom was for banning it. But I said to myself "why should people not be allowed to gamble? nobody is forcing them to." So I voted against it. And the initiative lost by 1 vote. :D

QFT!

+ a bunch :D

[Kade]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberal

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberal

http://www.bartleby.com/61/87/L0148700.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism


You idiots are still abusing a word that none of you are qualified to abuse. Stop with the talking points, and remove yourself from circles of idiots who have influenced your thought.

Seriously, can you think for yourselves? The only people trying to kill the word liberal are the people you should be against, stop mishandling this word. You don't seem to get it.




You are doing it wrong.

[Truth Warrior]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberal

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberal

http://www.bartleby.com/61/87/L0148700.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism


You idiots are still abusing a word that none of you are qualified to abuse. Stop with the talking points, and remove yourself from circles of idiots who have influenced your thought.

Seriously, can you think for yourselves? The only people trying to kill the word liberal are the people you should be against, stop mishandling this word. You don't seem to get it.




You are doing it wrong.
http://rexcurry.net/fascism=socialism.html (http://rexcurry.net/fascism=socialism.html)

[Kade]

http://rexcurry.net/fascism=socialism.html (http://rexcurry.net/fascism=socialism.html)

You have nothing to offer to this movement. You are a malignant cancer to liberty.

At what point do you think you may realize this, or will you die a bitter old fart, trolling forums, harassing people far younger than you, all because you spent enough time on child and animal porn Forums that you think you know how to grief, you don't, and you may die before you realize this... you are a worthless person.

[Truth Warrior]

The history of classical liberalism is closely related to the history of modern libertarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism) who revived the original doctrine of liberalism, and often call themselves "libertarians" and "classical liberals" interchangeably. The term "classical liberalism" itself was coined in the 20th century, and applied retroactively to pre-1850 liberalism, to avoid confusion with an accepted modern definition of liberalism.
History of classical liberalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_libertarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_libertarianism)

[Ozwest]

You have nothing to offer to this movement. You are a malignant cancer to liberty.

At what point do you think you may realize this, or will you die a bitter old fart, trolling forums, harassing people far younger than you, all because you spent enough time on child and animal porn Forums that you think you know how to grief, you don't, and you may die before you realize this... you are a worthless person.

QFT!

I just turned 50.

I'm not bitter.

But send me your cast-off girlfriends. :D

[Truth Warrior]

You have nothing to offer to this movement. You are a malignant cancer to liberty.

At what point do you think you may realize this, or will you die a bitter old fart, trolling forums, harassing people far younger than you, all because you spent enough time on child and animal porn Forums that you think you know how to grief, you don't, and you may die before you realize this... you are a worthless person.

Thanks for your typical less than worthless post contribution and new additional OFF TOPIC thread bump.

[Pauls' Revere]

"The system is corrupt, beyond redemption, and is not worthy of my support!"

I have come to place more trust in gold and other tangibles. Until I start seeing CEO's and politicians dragged away in handcuffs the systems is fundamentally corrupt. Period.

Yesturday, a co-worker (a doctor nonetheless PhD) had this discussion with me. I mentioned that the FBI is investigating criminal activitiy behind all this. Not three sentences later he says " were not bailing out criminal activity". I said then why is the FBI investigating? He looked at me like I was the idiot! and this man has a PhD?!? WTF?

:mad:

[Truth Warrior]

I have come to place more trust in gold and other tangibles. Until I start seeing CEO's and politicians dragged away in handcuffs the systems is fundamentally corrupt. Period.

Yesturday, a co-worker (a doctor nonetheless PhD) had this discussion with me. I mentioned that the FBI is investigating criminal activitiy behind all this. Not three sentences later he says " were not bailing out criminal activity". I said then why is the FBI investigating? He looked at me like I was the idiot! and this man has a PhD?!? WTF?

:mad: I hear you and agree. ;) :)

[Conza88]

If the OP is not an anarchist, then he's a hypocrite. :)

If he's not an anarcho-capitalist, then he's a fool. :)

When are Libertarians going to realise Constitutionally limited governments, never stay that way? Evil doesn't sleep. Power corrupts.

Kill the state. For it's nature is coercive, and criminal.

[Truth Warrior]

"Taking the State wherever found, striking into its history at any point, one sees no way to differentiate the activities of its founders, administrators, and beneficiaries from those of a professional-criminal class." ~ Albert Jay Nock, Our Enemy, The State

[Ozwest]

I have come to place more trust in gold and other tangibles. Until I start seeing CEO's and politicians dragged away in handcuffs the systems is fundamentally corrupt. Period.

Yesturday, a co-worker (a doctor nonetheless PhD) had this discussion with me. I mentioned that the FBI is investigating criminal activitiy behind all this. Not three sentences later he says " were not bailing out criminal activity". I said then why is the FBI investigating? He looked at me like I was the idiot! and this man has a PhD?!? WTF?

:mad:

I prefer to be self-reliant.

I guess the God-like Republicans are un-blemished, and the self righteous Democrats.

I need some Priestly redemption!

Ohhh...

Guess I'll be a atheist.

[Truth Warrior]

"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly American criminal class except Congress" -- Mark Twain, 1894

[Ozwest]

"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly American criminal class except Congress" -- Mark Twain, 1894

Somehow Truth Warrior,

I reckon you would not climb out of the fox-hole.

You would be a blithering shit.

[TruckinMike]

Constitutionally limited governments, never stay that way? Evil doesn't sleep. Power corrupts.

Kill the state. For it's nature is coercive, and criminal.

Its the nature of Mankind. This is why our founders exclaimed that our Constitution will only work for a moral people. Once immorality pervades society, an iron-fisted, controlling government will take liberty's place.


It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. -- John Adams

TMike

[Truth Warrior]

Somehow Truth Warrior,

I reckon you would not climb out of the fox-hole.

You would be a blithering shit.
Thanks for your typical less than worthless post contribution and new additional OFF TOPIC thread bump.

[Truth Warrior]

Its the nature of Mankind. This is why our founders exclaimed that our Constitution will only work for a moral people. Once immorality pervades society, an iron-fisted, controlling government will take liberty's place.



TMike
QFT!

The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html (http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html)

[Ozwest]

Its the nature of Mankind. This is why our founders exclaimed that our Constitution will only work for a moral people. Once immorality pervades society, an iron-fisted, controlling government will take liberty's place.



TMike

Orchestrated morality/ immorality.

I won't argue with you about a good few men. I reckon you are a warrior..

Iron fist is good.

[Ozwest]

Not everyone has to be Rambo.

I'm not.

Don't be media whores and ignorant pussies.

Otherwise you get what what you deserve.

[adara7537]

My question is when are people going to stop labeling people and arguing and find the common ground? Liberal, Democrat, Republican, who gives a shit?

We all want the same thing, which is generally to be left alone.

[Ozwest]

As an x-pat watching you guys being castrated of your liberties, and having my mind blown away...

I can't even "stir" the shit out of you.

This is not the America I was raised in.

When did you decide to be so piss weak?

[Kade]

As an x-pat watching you guys being castrated of your liberties, and having my mind blown away...

I can't even "stir" the shit out of you.

This is not the America I was raised in.

When did you decide to be so piss weak?

When they killed the word liberal.

When we started painting our trucks with confederate flags, daisy dukes, and guns.

When we raised hell about flag burning.

When we decided to combine the limited government party with the concept of a strong military...

When we let religion take over.

To name a few.

[Ozwest]

Stand up and snot "snot me".

[Ozwest]

Fuck.

My eyes are moistening.

Stand up and fight!

[Ozwest]

American workers rule.

Take your country back!

[Sarge]

This hits it on the nail.

"We the special interests of the united elite, in order to form a more perfect dominion, establish control, insure domestic monopoly, provide for our own defense, control the general welfare, and secure the blessings of nobility to ourselves and our posterity, do ignore and neglect the Constitution of the United States of America."

[TruckinMike]

When we let religion take over.

Wrong.. don't you mean when society booted religion to the curb (Specifically Christianity). There is a parallel relationship between a loss of liberty and a move away from Christianity. Not Vice Versa! A per capita reduction of Believers in Christ and church attendance parallels the growth of our tyrannical government and the rampant influx of atheism, socialism, and a loss of liberty in general.

These are facts. Ignore them if you so will. Christians are not your enemy.

Note: The above is a generalization; yes, you can find exceptions.

TMike

[Kade]

Wrong.. don't you mean when society booted religion to the curb (Specifically Christianity). There is a parallel relationship between a loss of liberty and a move away from Christianity. Not Vice Versa! A per capita reduction of Believers in Christ and church attendance parallels the growth of a tyrannical government and the rampant influx of atheism, socialism, and a loss of liberty in general.

These are facts. Ignore them if you so will.

Note: The above is a generalization; yes, you can find exceptions.

TMike

Absolutely not. The government has become more entangled with religion, not less.

The freest countries in the world are the most secular.

[Truth Warrior]

Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be.

The ends do NOT justify the means.

[Ozwest]

Christians, for the most are not the enemy.

Your government is!

They are bending you guys over. Big time!

When are you going to sort this?

[Ozwest]

This shit is not an abbheration.

It is for real.

The Lone Ranger and Tonto ain't going to rescue you.

Your government is ripping you off.

What are you going to do?

So far...

You have done diddly.

[TruckinMike]

The government has become more entangled with religion, not less. Are you kidding? Our early American congressmen had church services in the Capitol building, every Sunday. Do we now? Could we now? I think you know the answer to that question. Our leadership and culture has become more secular over time, not more religious.


mariam-webster:
Main Entry:
1sec·u·lar
Pronunciation:
\ˈse-kyə-lər\
Function:
adjective
Secular:: not overtly or specifically religious.

What could be more overtly religious than holding services in the Capital building each week? What could be more specific than basing those services on the Bible? Early American legislators were NOT at all secular. Todays legislators are the very definition of secular. Once again, you got it backwards.

TMike

[Kade]

Are you kidding? Our early American congressmen had church services in the Capitol building, every Sunday. Do we now? Could we now? I think you know the answer to that question. Our leadership and culture has become more secular over time, not more religious.



What could be more overtly religious than holding services in the Capital building each week? What could be more specific than basing those services on the Bible? Early American legislators were NOT at all secular. Todays legislators are the very definition of secular. Once again, you got it backwards.

TMike

http://www.amazon.com/White-Protestant-Nation-American-Conservative/dp/0871139847

Go read. I have a list of about 80 more where that came from... The moratorium on stupid starts today, become part of the solution.

[Truth Warrior]

http://www.amazon.com/White-Protestant-Nation-American-Conservative/dp/0871139847

Go read. I have a list of about 80 more where that came from... The moratorium on stupid starts today, become part of the solution. Yeah, just STOP supporting and voting FOR the "theists", STUPID!!!

[Ozwest]

Are you kidding? Our early American congressmen had church services in the Capitol building, every Sunday. Do we now? Could we now? I think you know the answer to that question. Our leadership and culture has become more secular over time, not more religious.



What could be more overtly religious than holding services in the Capital building each week? What could be more specific than basing those services on the Bible? Early American legislators were NOT at all secular. Todays legislators are the very definition of secular. Once again, you got it backwards.

TMike

With due respect...

WHO elected George Bush for eight years?

[TruckinMike]

Modern American Culture and its political leadership is clearly MORE secular than was its early American Counterpart.

You said...


The government has become more entangled with religion, not less.

Be a man and admit that you were wrong. Running away down some bunny trail to amazonland in a weak attempt to divert the argument away from your mistaken beliefs will not work. Until you can admit that you are wrong on this point, you have lost all credibility.

TMike

[aravoth]

Liberals used to be tolerable. Supporting regulation that limited how bad a government could screw you over. Untimely it led to stupid shit like, "treatment" for a guy that rapes 15, 7 year old boys, in an effort to "break the cycle of crime".

They started to see anyone captured by the system as a victim and did whatever they could to help them. People without a job got unemployment, people without health care got Medicaid, Medicare. People without retirement got Social Security. Eventually people who raped, people that assaulted, armed robbery etc. Were seen in the same light. To them, no longer was there such a thing as self reliance, or self responsibility, there where only those that were victims of the system, or those that benefit from the system.

And so, here we are today, liberals have been turned into neo-national-socialistic, quasi-corporatist, totalitarian Marxists, if there is such a thing. And they will, wether you want it or not, force you to benefit from the system.

The liberal's kade is talking about Are all dead, just like the conservatives we talk about are dead, except one that is.

[Truth Warrior]

Liberals used to be tolerable. Supporting regulation that limited how bad a government could screw you over. Untimely it led to stupid shit like, "treatment" for a guy that rapes 15, 7 year old boys, in an effort to "break the cycle of crime".

They started to see anyone captured by the system as a victim and did whatever they could to help them. People without a job got unemployment, people without health care got Medicaid, Medicare. People without retirement got Social Security. Eventually people who raped, people that assaulted, armed robbery etc. Were seen in the same light. To them, no longer was there such a thing as self reliance, or self responsibility, there where only those that were victims of the system, or those that benefit from the system.

And so, here we are today, liberals have been turned into neo-national-socialistic, quasi-corporatist, totalitarian Marxists, if there is such a thing. And they will, wether you want it or not, force you to benefit from the system.

The liberal's kade is talking about Are all dead, just like the conservatives we talk about are dead, except one that is.

It's now become just a very small part of the idiotic Marxist psychosis misinfo/disinfo propaganda BS. ;)

[nbhadja]

If the OP is not an anarchist, then he's a hypocrite. :)

If he's not an anarcho-capitalist, then he's a fool. :)

When are Libertarians going to realise Constitutionally limited governments, never stay that way? Evil doesn't sleep. Power corrupts.

Kill the state. For it's nature is coercive, and criminal.

Not if everyone has guns. We can just march to America and slaughter the corrupt politicians :). That is the safe guard of the constitution, it gives us weapons to fight back.

[Kade]

Modern American Culture and its political leadership is clearly MORE secular than was its early American Counterpart.

You said...



Be a man and admit that you were wrong. Running away down some bunny trail to amazonland in a weak attempt to divert the argument away from your mistaken beliefs will not work. Until you can admit that you are wrong on this point, you have lost all credibility.

TMike

By your logic, a public deist or atheist should be easily elected to the office of President... am I correct?

I'm not going give you this argument, you haven't made a single point. I gave you a source. If you want more, I have more.

I would be much more comfortable with the religion of my ancestor's in this country, than the end of the world dominionism that has taken complete control of this government. It's not just entangled, it's embedded. This is not a secular country, not as much as it once was, or was intended.

Where did you get the nonsense that we are more secular? Or that there is a correlation between religiosity and freedom?

Show me these statistics, you can start with Saudia Arabia and Iran.

I think you are talking out your ass.

[Kade]

Not if everyone has guns. We can just march to America and slaughter the corrupt politicians :). That is the safe guard of the constitution, it gives us weapons to fight back.

Although I support a person's right to weapons, I also know there is only one reason for them.

Some people stock food. The others stock weapons.

That one side will obviously win is a testament to the failure of society and our devaluation of life.

We are only handing over the reigns to a more intolerable power, an armed power, and no doubt an eventual dictator.

There is no hope. We can only attempt to reign in the controls of the government before it's too late.

[Ozwest]

Liberals used to be tolerable. Supporting regulation that limited how bad a government could screw you over. Untimely it led to stupid shit like, "treatment" for a guy that rapes 15, 7 year old boys, in an effort to "break the cycle of crime".

They started to see anyone captured by the system as a victim and did whatever they could to help them. People without a job got unemployment, people without health care got Medicaid, Medicare. People without retirement got Social Security. Eventually people who raped, people that assaulted, armed robbery etc. Were seen in the same light. To them, no longer was there such a thing as self reliance, or self responsibility, there where only those that were victims of the system, or those that benefit from the system.

I respect your thoughts aravoth,

But...

You are stereotyping.

I live in a different country now, but only assholes accept rape.

I do not feel "trodden upon" or subjugated because we provide free medical care, and cheap drugs.

I am a capitalist, not a socialist, or communist.

I'll contribute my tax dollars towards the well-being of my fellow citizens.

You bail out the profiteers.

And so, here we are today, liberals have been turned into neo-national-socialistic, quasi-corporatist, totalitarian Marxists, if there is such a thing. And they will, wether you want it or not, force you to benefit from the system.

The liberal's kade is talking about Are all dead, just like the conservatives we talk about are dead, except one that is.

Peace.

[Ozwest]

Although I support a person's right to weapons, I also know there is only one reason for them.

Some people stock food. The others stock weapons.

That one side will obviously win is a testament to the failure of society and our devaluation of life.

We are only handing over the reigns to a more intolerable power, an armed power, and no doubt an eventual dictator.

There is no hope. We can only attempt to reign in the controls of the government before it's too late.

Why all the drama?

You guys go on about hiding your food and buying guns.

During the meantime...

Your government fucks you on a daily basis.

[aravoth]

Peace.

I don't bailout profiteers. I don't bail out anyone.

Why do people always assume that if you don't support one group that you must support the other? There is more than left and right.

[Ozwest]

I don't bailout profiteers. I don't bail out anyone.

Why do people always assume that if you don't support one group that you must support the other? There is more than left and right.

I assume nothing.

I am an x pat stirring shit.

You get on with the job.

[TruckinMike]

The government has become more entangled with religion, not less.



Quote:

Are you kidding? Our early American congressmen had church services in the Capitol building, every Sunday. Do we now? Could we now? I think you know the answer to that question. Our leadership and culture has become more secular over time, not more religious.

Quote:
mariam-webster:
Main Entry:
1sec·u·lar
Pronunciation:
\ˈse-kyə-lər\
Function:
adjective

Secular:: not overtly or specifically religious.
What could be more overtly religious than holding services in the Capital building each week? What could be more specific than basing those services on the Bible? Early American legislators were NOT at all secular. Todays legislators are the very definition of secular. Once again, you got it backwards.

TMike



Point Number One: The American political leadership has become more and more secular over time. Our early American leaders were more overt and specific in their practice of religion.

Point Number Two: You got it backwards when you said:
The government has become more entangled with religion, not less.

Point number Three: You are not man enough to admit when you are wrong.

Three strikes you're out, go sit on the bench.

TMike

[Ozwest]

Point Number One: The American political leadership has become more and more secular over time. Our early American leaders were more overt and specific in their practice of religion.

Point Number Two: You got it backwards when you said:

Point number Three: You are not man enough to admit when you are wrong.

Three strikes you're out, go sit on the bench.

TMike

Go sit on the bench.

I'm thinking you played some football.

[Kade]

Point Number One: The American political leadership has become more and more secular over time. Our early American leaders were more overt and specific in their practice of religion.

Point Number Two: You got it backwards when you said:

Point number Three: You are not man enough to admit when you are wrong.

Three strikes you're out, go sit on the bench.

TMike

I admit when it happens. It happened yesterday for example, when I mistook a member as another.

In this, I'm not budging chief. This country is religiously apeshit.

Go see Bill Maher's Religulous this Friday.

[FindLiberty]

Constitutionally limited governments, never stay that way? Evil doesn't sleep. Power corrupts. Kill the state. For it's nature is coercive, and criminal.

We are in some deep doo doo... Too many voters have been taught to expect they can get sumptin' for free (get goodies at someone else's expense).

[Ozwest]

What's with all the trepidation?

Grab your government by the throat and shake it.

[acptulsa]

What's with all the trepidation?

Grab your government by the throat and shake it.

We have thirty-five days, people. Thirty five days to grab them by the scruff of the neck and shake 'em.