My views on the state of Christianity today

[DeadtoSin]

Please understand this is my very first draft of this, and I included something older I wrote. I know everything may not fit very well, but I wanted to put this out there and see everyone else's thoughts. I'd prefer this not turn into a "Christians are wrong" or "atheists are wrong thread." I wrote this for my audience, which will be my church, so I have to appeal to them in every way I can. I realize this is very rough and it needs work, but I'm hoping to get some critique. Please be gentle. :D

Church – By church, we mean the body of people who make the God of Jesus visible in the world

State – By state we mean “a country or nation with sovereign independent government ruled by kings, presidents, or legislatures.”

I'd like to start by making a diagnosis about Christianity in America. I am not a doctor, and I'm certainly not a Biblical scholar. Unfortunately, things have gotten so bad, that if you simply open your eyes and pay attention you can see American Christianity's sickness. As of right now, the church in America is schizophrenic. We claim to believe in the power of God, his saving grace, and that in the end His will will prevail. It seems logical that our voting behavior and the beliefs of the candidates we vote for would reflect our belief that God's will is going to reign supreme. Curiously enough, our votes express confidence not in God or his plan, but on the military and using war as a device to combat evil.

"One of the primary purposes of the church is to stop the spread of evil, even at the cost of human lives. If we do not stop the spread of evil, many innocent lives will be lost and the kingdom of God suffers." -Jerry Falwell

"True pacifism is not unrealistic submission to an evil power...it is rather a courageous confrontation with evil by the power of love, in the faith that it is better to be the recipient of violence than the inflicter of it, since the latter only multiplies the existence of violence and bitterness in the universe, while the former may develop a sense of shame in the opponent, and thereby bring about a transformation and change of heart." - Martin Luther King Jr.

American Christians in general have been corrupted by the state, by the power of empire. People who profess to be Christians are driving our current wars, pastors preach Christ's love and the morality of war from the same pulpit. Pastor's opt for the Gospel of Ruin instead of the Gospel of Restoration. “Murder, considered a crime when people commit it singly, is transformed into a virtue when they do it enmasse. - St. Cyprian”.

It is amazing to see Christians who, fearing for their safety, would support a war and dismiss the civilian casualties. How can we do evil like supporting the war that caused even one death, just so we can bring about good? Romans 3:8 says “Let us not do evil so that good may come (a statement which we are falsely said by some to have made), because such behavior will have its right punishment.” As Christians we should see what we formerly treasured. We treasured money and possessions above all else. We stole from each other, hated each other, murdered each other and now we are brothers and sisters in the same family. So when we see Iraq, we see the conservative estimate of around 100,000 dead civilians with a much higher unofficial estimation we have to wonder, what kind of people do they see us as? Do they see us a the so-called Christian nation? If so, they must see us as strange envoys of Christianity, and even stranger liberators.

“There's power, wonder-working power, in the goodness and idealism of the American people.” - President Bush 2003
“The ideal of America is the hope of all mankind. That hope still lights our way. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.” - President Bush 2002

How can we so staunchly support a man who seems to be committing idolatry and blasphemy by simply replacing Christ with America? America is a Christian nation inasmuch as it looks like Christ. America isn't inherently a Christian nation, and we can't “take America back for Christ.” We've got to be examples to our community of love, not violence. Then, we will begin to look more like a nation with the love of Christ.

“If everyone were to act the same as you Christians, the national government would soon be left utterly deserted and without any help, and affairs on earth would soon pass into the hands of the most savage and wretched barbarians.” - Celsus
“Celsus exhorts us to help the Emperor and be his fellow soldiers. To this we reply, “You cannot demand military service of Christians any more than you can of priests.” We do not go forth as soldiers with the Emporer even if he demands this. [Origen goes on to say that if the Romans followed the teachings of Jesus, there would be no barbarians.” - Origen

So what should we do as Christians? The first thing we should do is to change our own thinking. This is an incredibly hard endeavor that I am still struggling with. We should realize that making peace is just as costly as making war. Making peace requires pain and sacrifice. Second, we have to learn to rely on God for protection. Why should be rely on military power and political power to bully people? I love Christ's meekness and love for his enemies, and I want to imitate that to the world.

I'd like to write a little bit about how we might be involved in politics.

First of all, I'm kind of wary of us trying to get the federal government to do our job for us. Thats sort of what I feel like we as Christians are really doing in government as of lately. I'm not talking about voting against what you believe, and things like that. Definitely, vote for the candidate that fits your ideals the closest. However, we really push Congress and the Judiciary to enforce our morals. I have a problem with this. First off, I think we should be careful about the way we go about bringing morality to this nation. Doing it with the iron first of the Federal government is a scary road to turn down. Just think of the abuses the government could get away with if they had not only the power but the moral high ground to do it as well!

Right here is where I think you might stop agreeing with me. I still hold the same viewpoint as you, and I believe morality is uncompromising and is based off of the Bible. I believe we are to preach Christ's love, what he did for us on the Cross, and of repentance. That being said, I am simply desiring that Christian's across America affect their communities locally, rather than through the government. So that is probably our only real disagreement.

Also, consider how non-Christians perceive us. If they are REQUIRED to act in the same fashion as we are, how are we any different from they are? Obviously we know the difference, but a non-Christian person would feel no compulsion to make any commitment, as they'd see no real reason to change for Christ. It really goes back to the Pharisees and their desire to live a holy life by doing it themselves. Sure, if we had a law against lying, people wouldn't lie. But think about it, does that really make them more holy? Only the desire to live a life like Christ's life and your belief in Him saves you. So when we force our ideals on people, you've got to think, is that man trying to live holy..or is he trying to not get arrested/fined?

I am not advocating lying down and letting the liberal forces that want to change America simply do so, I am just advocating caution in trying to bring our morality across the board to everyone else. When we do that, it does not make the nation more moral by any means. It does not make those people more holy to live like we do, and therefore I don't think it makes the person a more moral person. They are still the same person, with a restriction on their lives. For example, vegetarians believe that killing an animal and eating is immoral and evil. Lets say that these people passed a law that no animals could be eaten. Of course, people who eat meat are not allowed to do so. Do they suddenly stop eating meat because they think it is immoral, or do they stop eating it because they do not want to go to jail?

That is why I just want some caution from the Christian right in constantly pushing our agenda. Again, I'm not advocating letting the liberal forces simply changing everything, because they are the ones who just want to change everything we hold dear. I just want Christians to work at the local level a lot harder than we work trying to push people in Washington on our values. Besides, look at the state Washington left us in at this point. We should not trust the American government to be moral, and we should not try to force everyone to live how we do. When we do that, we give up part our job as Christians to the government. Christians should be deciding what is moral and immoral, and we should be working for a change at our local levels, rather than letting the government decide our morality for us.
We should be shining God's love, not trying to force the Federal govt to do so.

I have no other advice for anyone, but I would just like Christians to consider the evils of war, and to draw their own conclusions on whether they should lend their support to such an act.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Better paragraphing would increase readability.

[DeadtoSin]

Yeah, sorry about that. I just copied from OpenOffice and it looks a lot better on there.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Cool. I'm just mentioning that you will likely get more responses after you tidy it up, a bit.

[DeadtoSin]

Hopefully thats a bit better. Its a lot easier to make things look nice in Open Office than it is on here. :o

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Hey man. I am also working on an open letter to my Christian friends. I will share when I am done.

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Hmm... and i suggest you grab Rob Bell's new book before sending this letter off. He covers all this in a most elaborate beautiful and yet simple way. Take some cues from him...

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Wants-Save-Christians-Manifesto/dp/0310275024/
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4406153/Rob_Bell_-_Jesus_Wants_To_Save_Christians_-_iTunes_AudioBook

[DeadtoSin]

Well, I am planning on sending this to my pastor after I change it up some. I wouldn't send a letter with all the quotes and stuff to my whole church, because they likely wouldn't read it.

Certainly though, I would love to have your letter to give to my church. I've been wanting to pick up Rob Bell's book. I picked it up at Lifeway and I nearly bought it, and I regret it now.

[RonPaulVolunteer]

BUMPED because some AHole gave this thread a one-star rating. And I'm going to bump it several more times to set an example of your incredible intolerance of other people's views.

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Well, I am planning on sending this to my pastor after I change it up some. I wouldn't send a letter with all the quotes and stuff to my whole church, because they likely wouldn't read it.

Certainly though, I would love to have your letter to give to my church. I've been wanting to pick up Rob Bell's book. I picked it up at Lifeway and I nearly bought it, and I regret it now.

Must have been a different book. Jesus Wants To Save Christians only came out on Monday.

[DeadtoSin]

When I say I have been "wanting to pick it up", I meant on Thursday I saw that book and bought another one instead and I am regretting it now after having read your topic on the book earlier.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Howdy,

Does anyone have a link to that Christianity book which mentions, "The Revolution: A Manifesto"?

Thanks.

Sincerely,
Omphfullas Zamboni

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Howdy,

Does anyone have a link to that Christianity book which mentions, "The Revolution: A Manifesto"?

Thanks.

Sincerely,
Omphfullas Zamboni

I think you're talking about the Amazon review I found where the reviewer suggests people buy Ron Paul's book: http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Wants-Save-Christians-Manifesto/dp/0310275024/

This new book by Rob Bell, Jesus Wants To Save Christians is insane. Give it to the average American Christian and they are going to spit their teeth out.

[robert9712000]

I think where most christians get a bad rap from people is because theres the image out there that christians are hell bent on forcing there morality on people and also at the same time come across as hypocrites in what they preach.

The flaw in that image is assuming that the limited few who make all the noise and who push there views on them are christians when in fact they arent Necessarily christians just because they proclaim to be.They then make there assumptions of what christianity is all about based on there actions instead of judging Christianity based on the Bible.

I think the mistake most christians make is they get pressured by over zealous christians who make them feel guilty or outcast if they dont prescribe to the mindset of the average modern day american church which pretends to preach the word but is in reality a glorified feel good social function.

I believe strongly that the church is just for the milk of the word and is ment for those who are begining there walk. I realised after attending church for 10 years that to know the deeper things could only be learned through my own personal studies and walk.

Thats why i dont force my faith at others because i know that if a person desires to know truth they will seek it out and can start there journey by going to church.Now if they ask me a question about my faith i will gladly tell them exactly how i feel.

As far as goverment i think a believer in that postion can best serve the people he respresents if he follows Christs golden rule - Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Robert

[afmatt]

I see where you're coming from 110% - At my church this morning the person doing the announcements made a big deal about the economy - almost sounded like he was winding up to something like asking the people to take action.
NOT - he asked them to pray.
Don't get me wrong, prayer is powerful, I'm praying for this whole situation - but prayer alone will not show Washington that we don't like this steaming pile of crap they are trying to push on us. Want your prayers to make a difference? Type one up and fax it to your representation, you'll kill two birds with one stone.

[dawnbt]

Great job! I did notice one typo:

It is amazing to see Christians who, fearing for their safety, would support a war and dismiss the civilian casualties. How can we do evil like supporting the war that caused even one death, just so we can bring about good? Romans 3:8 says “Let us not do evil so that good may come (a statement which we are falsely said by some to have made), because such behavior will have its right punishment.” As Christians we should see what we formerly treasured. We treasured money and possessions above all else. We stole from each other, hated each other, murdered each other and now we are brothers and sisters in the same family. So when we see Iraq, we see the conservative estimate of around 100,000 dead civilians with a much higher unofficial estimation we have to wonder, what kind of people do they see us as? Do they see us a the so-called Christian nation? If so, they must see us as strange envoys of Christianity, and even stranger liberators.

Also, I also had this same discussion with a group of McCain lovin Christians and brought these scriptures to their attention:

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.” 1 John 2:15

“My kingdom is not of this world, else would my servants fight” (John 18:36)

“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phil. 3:20)

“No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier” (2 Timothy 2:4).


Good luck and god bless!

[PatriotOne]

I sat down last night and decided to read the bible from cover to cover. I have always had my opinions on religion but they were not formed by reading the bible thoroughly. A friend of mine, who became a born again Christian for just a little over a year, and is now gaga over the word of God and Jesus actually bought me a beautiful leather bible engraved with my name and all. This bible is absolutely stunnng. I thought it only fair to read it if I was going to have discussions about Christianity with her.

I started reading the new testament (Matthew) and am shocked, yes, SHOCKED at what I am reading in the bible. So far, the words of Jesus remind me of every other tyrant tactics I have researched this past five years....not the least of which are George Bush. I use to think they took the rules out of the Nazi playbook but now I am wondering if they aren't following the bible playbook. Utter rule by fear. A constant thread running through Matthew is you either believe in God or you are against God and his enemy and will burn in hell forever. Reminds me of the mantra after 9/11.

You are either with us or you are with the terrorists. George Bush (The implication being we will nuke your sorry asses also).

But that's not the only thing that shocked me. Here are a couple passages that I find REALLY odd and totally is contradictive to what I thought Christians stood for. In one part of Matthew he speaks of Honoring thy father and mother as one of the 10 commandments and in another :confused::

Matthew:

10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 19

27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Jesus promotes men to forsake their families to worship him and promises them eternal life for it? WTF?

I haven't even gotten through Matthew yet, but dang, this is worse than I even imagined so far :eek:. I need to start asking christians if they have actually read the bible. He sounds a bit Charles Mason like to me :confused:

[RonPaulVolunteer]

I sat down last night and decided to read the bible from cover to cover. I have always had my opinions on religion but they were not formed by reading the bible thoroughly. A friend of mine, who became a born again Christian for just a little over a year, and is now gaga over the word of God and Jesus actually bought me a beautiful leather bible engraved with my name and all. This bible is absolutely stunnng. I thought it only fair to read it if I was going to have discussions about Christianity with her.

I started reading the new testament (Matthew) and am shocked, yes, SHOCKED at what I am reading in the bible. So far, the words of Jesus remind me of every other tyrant tactics I have researched this past five years....not the least of which are George Bush. I use to think they took the rules out of the Nazi playbook but now I am wondering if they aren't following the bible playbook. Utter rule by fear. A constant thread running through Matthew is you either believe in God or you are against God and his enemy and will burn in hell forever. Reminds me of the mantra after 9/11.

You are either with us or you are with the terrorists. George Bush (The implication being we will nuke your sorry asses also).

But that's not the only thing that shocked me. Here are a couple passages that I find REALLY odd and totally is contradictive to what I thought Christians stood for. In one part of Matthew he speaks of Honoring thy father and mother as one of the 10 commandments and in another :confused::

Matthew:

10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 19

27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Jesus promotes men to forsake their families to worship him and promises them eternal life for it? WTF?

I haven't even gotten through Matthew yet, but dang, this is worse than I even imagined so far :eek:. I need to start asking christians if they have actually read the bible :confused:

You make the same mistake 99% of the preachers in America do. You are not taking it in context. Keep reading, you have a lot to cover...

And I'm sorry she gave you a King James Version

I recommend you buy this Bible... http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Word-Todays-Bible-Translation/dp/0529103125/ or http://www.amazon.com/GODS-WORD-Handi-Size-Black-Duravella/dp/1932587683/

[PatriotOne]

You make the same mistake 99% of the preachers in America do. You are not taking it in context. Keep reading, you have a lot to cover...

And I'm sorry she gave you a King James Version

I recommend you buy this Bible... http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Word-Todays-Bible-Translation/dp/0529103125/

I am not taking it out of context. I am reading every word before and after. He tells them they will receive a special reward in heaven if they forsake their families to spread the word of God. Reminds me of several cults that ask their members to sever their relationships with their families and pledge their only allegiance to the cult.

[RonPaulVolunteer]

I am not taking it out of context. I am reading every word before and after. He tells them they will receive a special reward in heaven if they forsake their families to spread the word of God. Reminds me of several cults that ask their members to sever their relationships with their families and pledge their only allegiance to the cult.

CONTEXT is seeing it in the light of ALL Scripture, not just the words before or after. As I said, continue your reading, and use a better translation. I shouldn't need to repeat myself, I was very clear.

[PatriotOne]

CONTEXT is seeing it in the light of ALL Scripture, not just the words before or after. As I said, continue your reading, and use a better translation. I shouldn't need to repeat myself, I was very clear.


Ahhh....now I have entered the "spin room". I have read it in context and don't need someone to tell me what that means by cross referencing other non-related passages or what their interpretation of it is. It's not hard to understand those passages. They were quite clear what they meant.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Hi Volunteer,

In what ways does your interpretation differ?

Thanks for the input.

Regards,
Omphfullas Zamboni

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Ahhh....now I have entered the "spin room". I have read it in context and don't need someone to tell me what that means by cross referencing other non-related passages or what their interpretation of it is. It's not hard to understand those passages. They were quite clear what they meant.

LOL... There is NOTHING unrelated in Scripture...

but w/e... Have fun...

[robert9712000]

Its not in context because you dont understand the meaning by what he says,hes not telling you a good christian will sever his ties with his family intentionally but giving advice knowing that people are torn by the fact of thinking that honoring there mother and father means they have to think the way they think but Christ is saying that just by the very act of professing your belief can cause division in your family and that if it comes to the point where you need to make your choice to adhere to your familys wishes or to follow your faith ,that faith is the more important.

heres a verse that describes whats wrong with your approach towards the Bible


MATHEW 13
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The point is ,from your post i get the sense that you have already formed an opinion before youve read it thoroughly.You pretend that your open because you say your gonna read it but the additude you show in the post says otherwise.
How can you make a fair assesment of what you read when youve already made up your mind before youve read it?
That approach will push you to try to find reasons to dismiss what you read instead of starting with a scincere desire to understand what you read.

Robert

[weatherbill]

oN CHARACTER issues, Jesus says

Love you enemies, bless those who persecute you

love one another as I have loved you

the greatest among you shall be last of all and servant of all

on judgement, yes, there will be a judgement. There has to be a judgement. Men cannot get away with horrific crimes.

From the premis that people deserve etenral life, that is a false premis and rediculous to think people have the "right" to eternal life, so the argument that Jesus imposes his word that he is the only way to eternal life is not an intelligent argument in the first place, sinc eit is built on a false premis of thinkign you deserve etenral life, the greatest gift anyone could get.....that's pretty arrogant to think that you "deserve" eternal life with no strings attached......sounds more like socialism to me, even communistic to think everyone who is good in theri own eyes deserves eternal life.........

Therefore, if God says some get it and other won't, it is not for you to argue the rules on that because if I came into your house and told you the rules concerning your children, you would think I'm a fool..... it is no different and so, God has laid out the rules....quite simple....repent from sin (fornication, adultry, idolatry, materialism, selfishness, etc) and beleive in his SON who paid the price for your sin, so that God can give you his Holy SPirit, to empower you to overcome.

I just cannot beleive the cockiness of people, to think they deserve eternal life.....pfffff

[PatriotOne]

LOL... There is NOTHING unrelated in Scripture...

but w/e... Have fun...

This is supposedly a first hand account by Matthew of Jesus's words. Do you have another translation of his words or was it discovered Matthew made a typo or are you just going on faith that Jesus didn't literally mean what he said or has it been discovered that Matthew is a liar who infiltrated the Jesus camp and was spreading disinformation...lol?

[weatherbill]

as far as my views on the stat eof christianity today...it is a sorry state the church is in. Instead of being community, we are a corporation, a commercial gathering of people????

However, I think some churches are fine. The mennonites are a real community..... there are others as well. I do not like the mega church culture...that disgusts me and I think God does not like it either.

I think the church is economically dumb and like the common american, living in a dream world of ignorance concerning what is happening witht he economy.

I think most churches will fall apart when an economic collapse comes, proving my point, that it isn't so bonded together as community as it wouldlike to think itslef to be.

we live in a commercial world and it has seeped over into the church...... the church has lost its saltiness thru this progression. It is no different than the world in many ways.

Instead of being despised and reject for the truth, the church doesn't even know what truth is when it comes to economics and politicial policy..... it doesn' stand for the law of the land, the Constitution. It is a corporation that has limits set on it by the IRZS. From the pulpit, it cannot speak the truth in some areas......thus, it is not under the control of Jesus as far as honoring the law of the land, whciht he bible commands....... so politically and economically, it is a dumb entity....as far as spiritual truth, the church is doing a good job and tells us to stayout of debt and such, with many other good teachings, but they lack in some of the vital elements that makes a church great....... and too many preachers talking of prosperity, but prosperity in the scriptures is to sacrifice and give, not to get get get, as is seen in the eyes of american congregations.

[PatriotOne]

Its not in context because you dont understand the meaning by what he says,hes not telling you a good christian will sever his ties with his family intentionally but giving advice knowing that people are torn by the fact of thinking that honoring there mother and father means they have to think the way they think but Christ is saying that just by the very act of professing your belief can cause division in your family and that if it comes to the point where you need to make your choice to adhere to your familys wishes or to follow your faith ,that faith is the more important.

That is not what he said and one has to make some pretty big assumptions to believe that.. If that is what he meant though then he sucks as God's agent because we should not be made to make assumptions since the price of being wrong is eternal damnation in hell don't you think? :D.

[psalm82x3]

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

[RonPaulVolunteer]

as far as my views on the stat eof christianity today...it is a sorry state the church is in. Instead of being community, we are a corporation, a commercial gathering of people????

And I think you'll find most Christians here also see it that way. But then you have to understand the difference between Following Jesus and being a part of a religious system known as the Western Christian Church. I am not a part of the WCC. I do not go to Church. But I follow Jesus. I absolutely reject the WCC. It repulses me.

And I am not alone. Rob Bell, who's new book I started a thread about, is also against the WCC. He is seriously anti-American Empire.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Wants-Save-Christians-Manifesto/dp/0310275024/

If you don't want to buy this book, listen to it, it's only 3.5 hours long. It's on BitTorrent, just go search for it. I just bought it, and I have never heard anyone expose the American Empire AND the false WCC like he does in this book. It's only been out a week, and it's very timely. Anyone who is against Christians really needs to read this book for a VERY different view of the Christian faith than what they have been exposed to.

And yet, in a true and great irony, Rob Bell, the author of that book, has the fastest growing Church in American history. http://MarsHill.org Just a look around their website will show you how different they are. He is now one of the most highly criticized people in "Christendom". He doesn't care. man on a mission!

*WCC is a term I invented and use. It's not an established term in case you tried to google it.

[RonPaulVolunteer]

This is supposedly a first hand account by Matthew of Jesus's words. Do you have another translation of his words or was it discovered Matthew made a typo or are you just going on faith that Jesus didn't literally mean what he said or has it been discovered that Matthew is a liar who infiltrated the Jesus camp and was spreading disinformation...lol?

You are doing to the words of Matthew exactly what others do to Ron Paul.

That Ron Paul kook, the fool wants to get rid of (insert bunch of govt depts. here). How freaking insane. What a kook.

Context my friend.

[dawnbt]

Its not in context because you dont understand the meaning by what he says,hes not telling you a good christian will sever his ties with his family intentionally but giving advice knowing that people are torn by the fact of thinking that honoring there mother and father means they have to think the way they think but Christ is saying that just by the very act of professing your belief can cause division in your family and that if it comes to the point where you need to make your choice to adhere to your familys wishes or to follow your faith ,that faith is the more important.

heres a verse that describes whats wrong with your approach towards the Bible


MATHEW 13
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The point is ,from your post i get the sense that you have already formed an opinion before youve read it thoroughly.You pretend that your open because you say your gonna read it but the additude you show in the post says otherwise.
How can you make a fair assesment of what you read when youve already made up your mind before youve read it?
That approach will push you to try to find reasons to dismiss what you read instead of starting with a scincere desire to understand what you read.

Robert

Very well said!

[dawnbt]

as far as my views on the stat eof christianity today...it is a sorry state the church is in. Instead of being community, we are a corporation, a commercial gathering of people????

However, I think some churches are fine. The mennonites are a real community..... there are others as well. I do not like the mega church culture...that disgusts me and I think God does not like it either.

I think the church is economically dumb and like the common american, living in a dream world of ignorance concerning what is happening witht he economy.

I think most churches will fall apart when an economic collapse comes, proving my point, that it isn't so bonded together as community as it wouldlike to think itslef to be.

we live in a commercial world and it has seeped over into the church...... the church has lost its saltiness thru this progression. It is no different than the world in many ways.

Instead of being despised and reject for the truth, the church doesn't even know what truth is when it comes to economics and politicial policy..... it doesn' stand for the law of the land, the Constitution. It is a corporation that has limits set on it by the IRZS. From the pulpit, it cannot speak the truth in some areas......thus, it is not under the control of Jesus as far as honoring the law of the land, whciht he bible commands....... so politically and economically, it is a dumb entity....as far as spiritual truth, the church is doing a good job and tells us to stayout of debt and such, with many other good teachings, but they lack in some of the vital elements that makes a church great....... and too many preachers talking of prosperity, but prosperity in the scriptures is to sacrifice and give, not to get get get, as is seen in the eyes of american congregations.

I completely agree with the "mega" church comment! They are way too liberal in order to fill up the building. Teaching false doctrine to unknowing dupes. My church thankfully is apostolic, teaches strictly from the book, and has mayber 25 people on a good Sunday. Would we love to have the pews full? Sure, but we would never water down and sweeten the truth just to get extra bodies in the seats. I'm proud of my church, we're not politically correct, we're biblically direct.
My pastor and his wife doesn't even vote because they know how corrupt the government is and that it is all a show anyway.
We were just talking today in church that when it hits the fan, more people than ever will be turning to the church when they find that the government won't be there to help them, and no matter how financially damaging it becomes, the Lord will find a way to provide for our quaint little church.

[dawnbt]

And I think you'll find most Christians here also see it that way. But then you have to understand the difference between Following Jesus and being a part of a religious system known as the Western Christian Church. I am not a part of the WCC. I do not go to Church. But I follow Jesus. I absolutely reject the WCC. It repulses me.

And I am not alone. Rob Bell, who's new book I started a thread about, is also against the WCC. He is seriously anti-American Empire.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Wants-Save-Christians-Manifesto/dp/0310275024/

If you don't want to buy this book, listen to it, it's only 3.5 hours long. It's on BitTorrent, just go search for it. I just bought it, and I have never heard anyone expose the American Empire AND the false WCC like he does in this book. It's only been out a week, and it's very timely. Anyone who is against Christians really needs to read this book for a VERY different view of the Christian faith than what they have been exposed to.

And yet, in a true and great irony, Rob Bell, the author of that book, has the fastest growing Church in American history. http://MarsHill.org Just a look around their website will show you how different they are. He is now one of the most highly criticized people in "Christendom". He doesn't care. man on a mission!

*WCC is a term I invented and use. It's not an established term in case you tried to google it.

Rob Bell is a major player in the Emerging Church. He's knee deep in false teaching and spirituality.

http://apprising.org/category/rob-bell/

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Rob Bell is a major player in the Emerging Church. He's knee deep in false teaching and spirituality.

http://apprising.org/category/rob-bell/

That's funny, because he rejects the emerging Church. Do some homework before judging people. And read your Bible beforehand too.

Rob Bell is a Prophet sent to the Church for this era. Reject that if you choose, but you do so in ignorance. It's people with stupid judgements like you that are the very ones that so badly need to read his books. Gosh. I hate ignorance....


I'm proud of my church, we're not politically correct, we're biblically direct.

That says everything... You're against everyone that disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture right? I'm not. I have been wrong before. Maybe you have been too! No, I doubt it :) Pride comes before...???

[PatriotOne]

You are doing to the words of Matthew exactly what others do to Ron Paul.

That Ron Paul kook, the fool wants to get rid of (insert bunch of govt depts. here). How freaking insane. What a kook.

Context my friend.

How the heck could I be taking Jesus's words out of context when Matthew is supposedly quoting Jesus verbatim? It's not like he was in a Fox News run debate and only had 30 seconds to respond and didn't have time to respond clearly. I have read the whole Matthew gospel now and there is nothing about "if your family rejects me then forsake them". And even if there were, it still sounds crazy. He expects men to leave their families to starve to death if they don't believe in this God they can not see or hear or touch and never heard about before because this Jesus guy says so? Reminds me of when Bush claimed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and if our men did not blow the country to kingdom come, we were all going to be nuked by Iraq. We couldn't see the weapons of mass destruction but had to take it on faith they were real and were scared to death not to. See any similarities in the tactics?