What Would The Founding Fathers Do?

[speech]

I would like to ask everyone in the forum what they think our Founding Fathers, men like Thomas Jefferson, would do in light of today’s government rule. With all the things going on before our very own eyes, in very plain sight, it’s quite obvious that the New World Order and/or police state will happen very soon. Are we run by tyrants? I’m pretty sure everybody would have to say yes. If the majority of US citizens feel that those who run the government are tyrants and enemies and un-surpers of the Constitution, are we not obligated to do something? If nothing is done now, I for one fear for what will happen within this next year.

They are destroying the Constitution ("just a goddamn piece of paper") and taking away our Liberties, and next will be our weapons. G. Bush senior said himself that the NWO will happen. Look who is in office today! Why it’s Bush's son! Like father, like son.
http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?topic=963.msg2669;topicseen#msg2669

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

They would be shoved aside by the media as kooks and doomsayers, until it's too late to do anything to help.

[RickyJ]

They would sign a new declaration of independence and be promptly hunted down and killed by the CIA.

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

They would combine into Founderzord, and hack the Pentagon to bits with a giant lazer sword

[SeanEdwards]

I doubt they'd post their calls for violent revolution on the internet.

[fedup100]

They would charge the Whitehouse and die trying. There is no way these men would sit on their ass and post on a forum all day. In fact, they would have never let it get this far gone.

The enemy within has made sure to pass laws that scare the shit out of any one that would dare speak out against them before they stole your country, your treasure, your children's future and your life.

You have now awakened to the fact that your children are going to be not only homeless, but without a country in the land their forefathers conquered and their coward fathers frittered away with "talk"

[xd9fan]

cut off Washington DC from the rest of the union.....while we still have one

[RickyJ]

I doubt they'd post their calls for violent revolution on the internet.


Did they try to hide the declaration of independence they signed?

No they didn't.

They weren't afraid to die for their cause and many did do just that.

[Kotin]

The Founding Fathers were reptilians..

[newyearsrevolution08]

Organize together and remove those who are taking away our liberties by reason or force and whatever is necessary.

We have wars daily, and what better reason than what is happening here in the states right now.

[RockEnds]

Maybe they would do just what they did before: form their own government, write a letter explaining exactly why the old one was no longer needed or welcomed, begin the process of self-government, and duck.

[Pauls' Revere]

outright civil war...correction REBELLION.

[Mach]

I think most those comments up there are correct, they definitely wouldn't just sit around and continuously analyze the situations to get out of actually doing what has to be done, intellect only goes so far. I hear about other countries with hundreds of thousands of people in the streets and it makes me ashamed, people here don't want to give up their (add your comfort here) and just shout out.....outside that is.

[JohnMeridith]

They would most likely mirror what this movement is doing. They were very patient and picked their moments to make their moves, especially Sam Adams did. Of course I think we need a Sam Adams more than anything now.

[Truth Warrior]

Ben might say, "Yeah, I never did really think that you could keep it. ;)"

[cheapseats]

Maybe they would do just what they did before: form their own government, write a letter explaining exactly why the old one was no longer needed or welcomed, begin the process of self-government, and duck.

There is no reason to think anything else.

Surely, it is why they wrote an escape hatch into our founding documents.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely...this is a truism as old as recorded history.

[cheapseats]

They would be shoved aside by the media as kooks and doomsayers, until it's too late to do anything to help.

They would be shoved aside by corporate mouthpieces of the Ruling Elite if they would let themselves be shoved aside. Being fundamentally peaceable people, their natural desire to protect the citizenry would have them much concerned about the sticks and stones part of suppression but the ridicule part of marginalization would hold no sway with them, I feel certain.

[cheapseats]

They would sign a new declaration of independence and be promptly hunted down and killed by the CIA.

But that is the big question, isn't it?

Will American Military and American Law Enforcement fire on the American people, en masse, on command of the Ruling Elite?

I should think that American Military and American Law Enforcement would "get it" by now that the Power they guard with their lives does little enough to protect American Military and American Law Enforcement.

Management, too, would do us all a favor by getting it through their well-coiffed heads that they are ALSO expendable..

This is high-tech feudal economics. People Of Consequence are very few in number.

[cheapseats]

They would charge the Whitehouse and die trying.

They would be willing to die. Charging the White House and dying trying is scarcely where they would start.

I have come to Philadelphia, where I have never been, specifically to check out this birth of a nation stuff.

Benjamin Franklin went to the George's court in Britain to talk reason before he went to France to talk money.




There is no way these men would sit on their ass and post on a forum all day.

On the other hand, they'd have paid a king's ransom for expeditious relay of messages. Try this public dialogue deal on horseback.




In fact, they would have never let it get this far gone.

Different times, different measures of "far gone." People customarily put up with shit until they've "had it up to here," until potential worst-case consequences of doing something are not as horrible as the conditions attendant to NOT doing something.




The enemy within has made sure to pass laws that scare the shit out of any one that would dare speak out against them before they stole your country, your treasure, your children's future and your life.

That is correct.

A capricious and punitive American Ruling Elite has steadily and deliberately made the American people afraid of American Government. American Politicos and Robber Barons feel confident that they and their families are impervious to danger or even downturn.




You have now awakened to the fact that your children are going to be not only homeless, but without a country in the land their forefathers conquered and their coward fathers frittered away with "talk"

Some cowardly...more than I would ever have thought...some still complacent. Without fail, everywhere I go, still, the people who are not yet impacted are percolating along like nothing's wrong. They don't even wanna HEAR about it.

[cheapseats]

cut off Washington DC from the rest of the union.....while we still have one

When America means business, presuming it does not go to war, it imposes economic sanctions. The outcome of economic sanctions is more reliable than the outcome of violence.

[cheapseats]

Did they try to hide the declaration of independence they signed?

No they didn't.

They weren't afraid to die for their cause and many did do just that.

I have come to Philadelphia to assure myself of exactly this.

With high irony, the Liberty Bell is barricaded behind search-your-bag level security, under the watchful eye of the uniformed Security Class.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s221/litwit/Washington.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s221/litwit/Liberty1-1.jpg

[LittleLightShining]

When America means business, presuming it does not go to war, it imposes economic sanctions. The outcome of economic sanctions is more reliable than the outcome of violence.Sanctions-- how do you impose sanctions on your government? Refuse to pay taxes? I don't think we'll be too effective in jail. But maybe I'm a coward. Or sanctions on the industries that are bankrupting us? Banking-- get your money out of the bank now?

Can we try Paulson, Dodd, etc for treason against the American people? Can we try every congressperson and senator who supports these bailouts for treason? They are doing what the founding father's rebelled against-- taxation without representation.

[cheapseats]

[QUOTE]Sanctions-- how do you impose sanctions on your government? Refuse to pay taxes? I don't think we'll be too effective in jail. But maybe I'm a coward.


A person would have to be crazy, not cowardly, to be unwilling to go jail.

I don't want to go to jail nor, I advise my countrymen and the international community, does government or law enforcement in these United States have good cause to imprison me.

Sadly, the sheer size of our prison population bears witness that American government and law enforcement are in the habit of incarcerating people without good cause.

Our prisons are so overly full, I am guessing and hoping it is not logistically tenable to lock up millions of conscientious objectors. I am REALLY hoping I am not the only one to go out on a limb, however, as I have every confidence that they can and will make room for a few more.




Or sanctions on the industries that are bankrupting us?

When Politicos go to bail out an industry, do they tax only consumers of that industry? No, they do not. They oblige all of us to pay.

When Politicos go to help out a group of people..say, irresponsible homeowners...do they tap only homeowners to pay the bill? No, they do not. As a renter, there is NO reason, none, that I should be bailing out homeowners or mortgage bankers.

If we begin from the premise that it is not a single industry but, rather, a Corporate Conglomeration that is bankrupting us (more to the point, Bad Guys at the helm of a Corporate Conglomeration, aided and abetted by Politicos, some of whom hail from the Corporate Conglomeration), it is not necessary to direct our objection to a single entity. Rather, it is imperative that Americans direct consolidated objection in a manner that is both feasible and meaningful.

For example, within the telecommunication oligopoly, it is not realistic for people to boycott a single service provider. People are under contracts, there are stiff penalties, they'd have to sign right up with another non-competitive provider.

Within the oil oligopoly, however, it is eminently feasible for the American people to single out and boycott one behemoth. Exxon Mobil seems to me to be the obvious choice, and I say that owing shares of Exxon Mobil. Their profits are obscene and their attitude is worse.

While certainly our objective is to consume less gas, the truth is we don't have to cut back even a single gallon to lay one company upon the rack. The American People would be empowered to learn how big an impact it would have if sales of Exxon Mobil gas fell off their pace for a month...say, the month of October. Economic theory suggests that Exxon would lower their price to lure customers back to their pumps...after, that is, they are dissuaded from gimmicks and giveaways.

Americans, including working poor, are spending money hand over fist on coffee concoctions, energy drinks, smoothies, blended this, slushy that, sodas, bottled water. Starbucks, to pick one behemoth, postures itself as a benevolent citizen of the world when, in fact, it has a host of business practices that exploit labor and abuse the environment, also that nickel and dime the many many caffeine addicts, of which I am one.

By the by, how many shots of espresso constitutes driving under the influence? California passed legislation that forbids talking on a hand-held phone while driving but that overlooks the many many hands that are wrapped around coffee cups rather than steering wheels. Business is business, eh?

Believe you me, the United States government would hear from Starbucks if Starbucks' sales fell off significantly owing to a determination by the People to hold Ruling Elite and Money Men to account.

Pick one fast food company...say, McDonalds. Pick one of the Drug Store chains that litters a country ostensibly engaged in a War On Drugs. Pick one super market chain. Pick one delivery service...neither the Post Office nor FedEx are realistic...how 'bout UPS? When I was in Georgia earlier this year, I read that UPS is the Number One lobbyist in the state of Georgia. Doesn't that seem implausible? Why would that be? Might it have to do with UPS buying up one of the mailbox/etc chains? It bears mention that vertical monopolies are not in the public interest.

Divide and conquer...it's a strategy as old as time. It's what they do. That would be because it works.




Banking-- get your money out of the bank now?

Like telecommunications, that's easier said than done.

As far as I'm concerned, my own investment house not only has some 'splaining to do, it is avoiding the 'splaining...which speaks volumes. It seems prudent to look into offshore banking.

Years ago, the husband of a friend was pick-pocketed of $3000 in a crowded elevator at the Beverly Center in Los Angeles. When I expressed surprise at the amount of cash he was carrying, his wife said, "He'd been shopping. Usually it's $5000...flight money." He carries it always, a habit of self-preservation ingrained by parents who relied upon border guard bribery to flee their country when the Nazis marched in.

I heard allusion to border crossing money the other day on the news. I will suggest that every American who can swing it might want to pull enough cash to make a dash. It would be important to learn, I think, whether American banks could handle simultaneous withdrawal of a few hundred to a few thousand dollars by millions of people.



Can we try Paulson, Dodd, etc for treason against the American people?

We can try to try them. We can investigate them along with Corporate Big Shots for, among other things, fiduciary irresponsibility.



Can we try every congressperson and senator who supports these bailouts for treason? They are doing what the founding father's rebelled against-- taxation without representation.

I, for one, am certainly being taxed without representation.

I suspect that most of Congress isn't learned enough to even understand the nature and ramifications of this free-for-the-few-expensive-for-the-many government grab. But that raises the issue of incompetence.

There is no doubt in my mind that certain members of Congress should be dishonorably discharged, without pensions. They could all be ridden out of town on a rail and we would be no worse off. Just leave us a map of where the millions and millions of dollars of office supplies are stored.

It bears recollection that U.S. Government is taught in middle school. It is not, as is said in the vernacular, rocket science.

[cheapseats]

It stands to reason that if the entire American financial community is in crisis, so am I. And yet, though I am an American citizen by birth and am expected to pay taxes, not one of the swifty nifty bailout or assistance programs accrue any benefit to me…beyond the vague but patriotic comfort I am meant to derive from our propping up companies that are too lousy to succeed and too large to fail and our bailing out individuals who are either too crooked or too stupid to fare well by means of ordinary free market commerce.

I do not feel comforted, on the contrary.

I contend discrimination by marital status. I contend discrimination by property ownership. I contend malfeasance. Finally, citing a premise fundamental to the birth of our nation, I contend taxation without representation.

As you know, the October 16 deadline approaches for those who, like me, filed extensions on their income taxes.

I require a formal Redress Of Grievances to determine what, if any, income tax I owe in light of sustained and brutal occupation of a foreign land, to which I hold such conscientious objection as to undermine the quality of my daily life, and now in light of fiscal tomfoolery that is being perpetrated at taxpayer expense but from which I derive no benefit.

Bearing in mind that it would be undemocratic, unreasonable and unjust to oblige me unto ruinous legal expense in order to register a legitimate and honorable request for Redress Of Grievances, I await advice on how to proceed.

cc: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/index.php



I appreciate as well as anyone how unnerving it is to give wildly authoritarian and capriciously punitive Rulers one's real name and address. They have, however, insulated themselves from communication without provision thereof.

I cannot say "be not afraid," for I AM afraid. But safety in numbers...we learned that in kindergarten. We are not safe by a long shot, but I'm pretty sure we're safer as millions hiding in plain sight than as individuals cowering in anonymity.

How did the Irish Revolutionary Jim Larkin put it? “The great appear great because you are on your knees - Arise."

[cheapseats]

It stands to reason that if the entire American financial community is in crisis, so am I. And yet, though I am an American citizen by birth and am expected to pay taxes, not one of the swifty nifty bailout or assistance programs accrue any benefit to me…beyond the vague but patriotic comfort I am meant to derive from our propping up companies that are too lousy to succeed and too large to fail and our bailing out individuals who are either too crooked or too stupid to fare well by means of ordinary free market commerce.

I do not feel comforted, on the contrary.


I contend discrimination by marital status. I contend discrimination by property ownership. I contend malfeasance. Finally, citing a premise fundamental to the birth of our nation, I contend taxation without representation.

As you know, the October 16 deadline approaches for those who, like me, filed extensions on their income taxes.

I require a formal Redress Of Grievances to determine what, if any, income tax I owe in light of sustained and brutal occupation of a foreign land, to which I hold such conscientious objection as to undermine the quality of my daily life, and now in light of fiscal tomfoolery that is being perpetrated at taxpayer expense but from which I derive no benefit.

Bearing in mind that it would be undemocratic, unreasonable and unjust to oblige me unto ruinous legal expense in order to register a legitimate and honorable request for Redress Of Grievances, I await advice on how to proceed.


Reply from Congressman Waxman:


Congressman Henry A. Waxman to me
show details Sep 22 (2 days ago)

Thank you for contacting me. I was glad to hear from you, and I look
forward to keeping in touch in the future.

If you would like to learn more about my work in Congress, please visit my
website at www.house.gov/waxman.

Additionally, I encourage you to sign up for periodic email updates about
my work. Your email address will never be shared, and you may unsubscribe
at any time. This feature is available through my website's homepage.

Representative Henry A. Waxman (CA-30)

--------

Note: Message sent from an unattended mailbox. Please do not reply.


As a nod to conservation of stationery and postage, I am inclined to accept Congressman Waxman's customarily polite response as confirmation that Congress stands apprised of my request for Redress Of Grievances prior to the payment of any income tax, in any income tax is even due.

For good measure, though, I did call the three offices today to reiterate my adamant opposition to the proposed Government Grab.

Both senators' phone lines were busy. When I did get through to Judy at Senator Feinstein's office, she said that some emails require research before response, and that someone will get back to me about affordable protocol for Redress Of Grievances. I need to understand, she tells me, that Dianne Feinstein gets lots and lots of mail (I suggested that this is because Dianne Feinstein is doing a crappy job...lots and lots of people don't write to say hello/well done), and I need further to understand that the "chemical screening" of postal mail slows everything down...it could take two weeks.

By contrast, Patrick in Senator Boxer's office says for the record that the only method for Redress Of Grievances afforded by "The System" is to vote differently in the next election. I believe that Patrick of Senator Boxer's office misspeaks himself.

A human answered Congressman Waxman's line on virtually the first ring, though he pointedly declined to give his name upon request. He assures me that Congressman Waxman's polite but generic response does not mean that he is insensitive to my remarks, only that he will respond personally and fully...in about a week. I need to understand that Congressman Waxman has "serious reservations" about the Great Bailout and that he is "very active."

I reminded him that Congressman Waxman is forever expressing serious reservations, then going along to get along, also that "very active" does not mean very effective.

Perhaps it is only because I have just returned from a tour of historic Philadelphia, our nation's first capitol, but I am convinced that our Founding Fathers would not put up with this shit.

[Kade]

They would probably be completely without power, and spend their time on internet forums trying to convince what few people who will listen, on how to stay the course of reason.

[VoteForRonPaul]

i think most those comments up there are correct, they definitely wouldn't just sit around and continuously analyze the situations to get out of actually doing what has to be done, intellect only goes so far. I hear about other countries with hundreds of thousands of people in the streets and it makes me ashamed, people here don't want to give up their (add your comfort here) and just shout out.....outside that is.
56'' Dlp Tv

:)

[Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice]

Given George Washington's history of using the army to sustain his whiskey monopoly, I would think he would send some soldiers into the Senate hearing and every now and then have the soldiers stomp and brandish their bayonets.

[hillbilly123069]

They did it already resulting in the greatest nation in history

[cheapseats]

They did it already resulting in the greatest nation in history

Indeed. History has a documentable habit of repeating itself, however.

I submit that steady and increasing abuse and oppression of the American people is again made manifest by a profligate, courtly, insulated, heavy-handed ruling body.

I am sad to say that I am not sure what Americans believe in anymore, outside of shopping and entertainment. But if we still ascribe to the principles on which our Founding Fathers separated themselves and us from the British Crown, I am obliged to ask the obvious question: What are we waiting for?

[JohnMeridith]

Indeed. History has a documentable habit of repeating itself, however.

I submit that steady and increasing abuse and oppression of the American people is again made manifest by a profligate, courtly, insulated, heavy-handed ruling body.

I am sad to say that I am not sure what Americans believe in anymore, outside of shopping and entertainment. But if we still ascribe to the principles on which our Founding Fathers separated themselves and us from the British Crown, I am obliged to ask the obvious question: What are we waiting for?
maybe we are waiting for occupation and a Boston Massacre?

[Josh_LA]

Our founding fathers would probably kill.

But that's not good enough, I wish some of us would take the advice of our founding fathers about slavery.