PDA

View Full Version : Where does life begin?




LibertiORDeth
09-17-2008, 12:55 PM
This post isn't intending to so start a pro-choice vs. pro-life debate, I am just curious has to whether or not science has been able to definitely prove where life begins. I am pro-life, since so far to my knowledge it has not been proved where life starts, thus we have to assume that life begins at conception until shown otherwise. If this changes or has changed I would thus like to know.
Also when I gave this reasoning to my friend, she said that we can't follow this since the female body "aborts" unfertilized eggs, and that life could very easily begin then and this is thus abortion. How do I argue with this?

Truth Warrior
09-17-2008, 12:56 PM
Usually with sex. :D

Kade
09-17-2008, 12:58 PM
Life began billions of years ago, and it has yet to cease. Life is a chain, and we are one piece of that chain... who knows how long it lasts.. maybe forever, maybe not.

SnappleLlama
09-17-2008, 12:59 PM
Human life technically begins with the union of a sperm and an egg. Everything else...is politics.

FrankRep
09-17-2008, 01:01 PM
Do we even exist at all?

:rolleyes:

ShowMeLiberty
09-17-2008, 01:01 PM
human life technically begins with the union of a sperm and an egg. Everything else...is politics.

qft

Kade
09-17-2008, 01:01 PM
Human life technically begins with the union of a sperm and an egg. Everything else...is politics.

Does it? Is a sperm alive?

Is an egg?

If not, why not?

orafi
09-17-2008, 01:04 PM
Does it? Is a sperm alive?

Is an egg?

If not, why not?

yup

dannno
09-17-2008, 01:05 PM
Human life technically begins with the union of a sperm and an egg. Everything else...is politics.

Why doesn't it begin when that egg is released and that sperm are first produced whilst a couple swoons over each other? There is a whole lot of chemistry happening, and the baby is already inevitable..the attraction process has begun, no stopping it now.. What about when the couple first meets and has that magical moment? The union of the egg and sperm is just another step of the process.

The question is when does the fetus take on the characteristics of life, because I don't think that happens at conception.. and what exactly is life?

nate895
09-17-2008, 01:06 PM
According to science, prior to the 1830s advance in microscope technology, the start of life was defined as the first kick from the baby, until that point, a woman could legally obtain an abortion. When the microscope advanced and they checked the fetuses they were aborting, they determined that they met their standard of life, and legislatures across the globe banned abortion totally with the exception of saving the life of the mother.

SnappleLlama
09-17-2008, 01:06 PM
Does it? Is a sperm alive?

Is an egg?

If not, why not?

Personally, I'm just basing it on chromosomes. Both egg and sperm carry 23 chromosomes, and when they unite, the result is a 46 chromosomal being, i.e., a human (obviously there are exceptions for humans with birth defects, but I don't know enough about that, so I'm not going pretend I do!).

As for eggs and sperm individually being "alive?" Hmm...that's a good one. I'll have to think on it.

SnappleLlama
09-17-2008, 01:08 PM
Why doesn't it begin when that egg is released and that sperm are first produced whilst a couple swoons over each other? There is a whole lot of chemistry happening, and the baby is already inevitable..the attraction process has begun, no stopping it now.. What about when the couple first meets and has that magical moment? The union of the egg and sperm is just another step of the process.

The question is when does the fetus take on the characteristics of life, because I don't think that happens at conception.. and what exactly is life?

Biologically, life can't start when people first meet and have a magical doublemint twins moment ;)

Philosophically, however, is a different story.

Highland
09-17-2008, 01:08 PM
Dr. Paul explained it at Bob Jones University...and we filmed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTjccxVZ8B0

Kade
09-17-2008, 01:08 PM
Why doesn't it begin when that egg is released and that sperm are first produced whilst a couple swoons over each other? There is a whole lot of chemistry happening, and the baby is already inevitable..the attraction process has begun, no stopping it now.. What about when the couple first meets and has that magical moment? The union of the egg and sperm is just another step of the process.

The question is when does the fetus take on the characteristics of life, because I don't think that happens at conception.. and what exactly is life?

You are growing on me danno. This is exactly what I am saying as well... it's a process, and who decides the arbitrary moment? Are they using science? Most of these people hate science... are they using common sense? who is the arbiter... A sperm is alive by all definition of life...

So is our skin cells.

nate895
09-17-2008, 01:08 PM
Does it? Is a sperm alive?

Is an egg?

If not, why not?

The only difference is that they are still of the same DNA as the person where they came from. As soon as they meet and begin to develop, their DNA changes. Of course in the first few days, the body has the ability to naturally abort a zygote if it is inviable, as most zygotes are.

Kade
09-17-2008, 01:09 PM
Dr. Paul explained it at Bob Jones University...and we filmed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTjccxVZ8B0

Dr. Paul speaks for me occasionally, but he does not speak for me always.

Kade
09-17-2008, 01:09 PM
The only difference is that they are still of the same DNA as the person where they came from. As soon as they meet and begin to develop, their DNA changes. Of course in the first few days, the body has the ability to naturally abort a zygote if it is inviable, as most zygotes are.

What about skin cells then. They are alive. They have the EXACT DNA of the person. Should that be protected then too?

rpfan2008
09-17-2008, 01:11 PM
Hoyle infamously compared the random emergence of even the simplest cell to the likelihood that "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein." He also compared the chance of obtaining even a single functioning protein by chance combination of amino acids to a solar system full of blind men solving Rubik's Cube simultaneously.


It's like the 'miracles' that happened with the WTCs, you are free to believe it.

nate895
09-17-2008, 01:11 PM
What about skin cells then. They are alive. They have the EXACT DNA of the person. Should that be protected then too?

They are part of the body, they are YOUR property, you can do whatever you want to them. A baby is of different DNA, and not your property.

Highland
09-17-2008, 01:11 PM
on the counter...2.02 Dr. Paul says at conception...that is me laughing right after that statement.
we were really close to him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTjccxVZ8B0

Highland
09-17-2008, 01:13 PM
Dr. Paul speaks for me occasionally, but he does not speak for me always.

at the end Dr. Paul actually says that it doesn't satisfy everyone...

JimDude
09-17-2008, 01:14 PM
Being Alive and Human aren't a same thing. A frog is alive, but its not human, therefore it doesnt have Human Rights. Rights are a Human invention. THey are a abstract concept created by men.

As for this topic, I think technically, every cell in our body is "alive." and with the genetic science and engineering they have today, I believe its possible they could turn those cells into potential humans. Does that mean every time we scratch our skin, were committing genocide? I dont think so, because the potential of life isnt necessiarly life.

So, my views are that when a egg and spem unite, they are life, because the potential has been realized.

Highland
09-17-2008, 01:16 PM
Being Alive and Human aren't a same thing. A frog is alive, but its not human, therefore it doesnt have Human Rights. Rights are a Human invention. THey are a abstract concept created by men.

As for this topic, I think technically, every cell in our body is "alive." and with the genetic science and engineering they have today, I believe its possible they could turn those cells into potential humans. Does that mean every time we scratch our skin, were committing genocide? I dont think, because the potential of life isnt necessiarly life.

So, my views are that when a egg and spem unite, they are life, because the potential has been realized.

that is what Dr. Paul said too! Brilliant explanation! Also, it is a great discussion to...I like seeing people examining the issue at the other end of the spectrum.

nate895
09-17-2008, 01:18 PM
Being Alive and Human aren't a same thing. A frog is alive, but its not human, therefore it doesnt have Human Rights. Rights are a Human invention. THey are a abstract concept created by men.

As for this topic, I think technically, every cell in our body is "alive." and with the genetic science and engineering they have today, I believe its possible they could turn those cells into potential humans. Does that mean every time we scratch our skin, were committing genocide? I dont think, because the potential of life isnt necessiarly life.

So, my views are that when a egg and spem unite, they are life, because the potential has been realized.

+1

You explained my thoughts on this subject, in a much smarter way.

Kade
09-17-2008, 01:19 PM
Being Alive and Human aren't a same thing. A frog is alive, but its not human, therefore it doesnt have Human Rights. Rights are a Human invention. THey are a abstract concept created by men.

As for this topic, I think technically, every cell in our body is "alive." and with the genetic science and engineering they have today, I believe its possible they could turn those cells into potential humans. Does that mean every time we scratch our skin, were committing genocide? I dont think, because the potential of life isnt necessiarly life.

So, my views are that when a egg and spem unite, they are life, because the potential has been realized.

Having been realized as what? What does that mean... can it think? Can it live on it's own? Is it without absolute dependency?

There is no difference between a zygote and those cells... The DNA is combined. The DNA is intact... what is the argument.

No, the potential has NOT been realized because you are inventing arbitrary lines in the sand... who is to say that when the nerve fibers are finally connected that it is not further along the potential then that arbitrary moment of conception.

Highland
09-17-2008, 01:22 PM
[QUOTE=Kade;1687079]Having been realized as what? What does that mean... can it think? Can it live on it's own? Is it without absolute dependency?

which one of us can live on our own without absolute dependency?;)

I guess on the, can it think...we don't know yet...so killing babies is a really questionable thing to do when you are not sure if they think. also....have you seen the work the Japanese are doing on babies being grown in man-made wombs? fascinating.

nate895
09-17-2008, 01:23 PM
Having been realized as what? What does that mean... can it think? Can it live on it's own? Is it without absolute dependency?

There is no difference between a zygote and those cells... The DNA is combined. The DNA is intact... what is the argument.

No, the potential has NOT been realized because you are inventing arbitrary lines in the sand... who is to say that when the nerve fibers are finally connected that it is not further along the potential then that arbitrary moment of conception.

You would be making arbitrary lines in the sand as well too. A baby just born cannot survive on its own, but there are few who'd argue it's OK to kill it. It is possible to sustain a baby born 4 or 5 months premature with modern medicine, should we ban abortion after that? Or we could not make arbitrary lines in the sand and say it is either OK until that baby can support itself without any aid, or from the moment that your body has determined that the zygote is viable.

Truth Warrior
09-17-2008, 01:24 PM
Do we even exist at all?

:rolleyes: I do, you don't. ;)

LibertiORDeth
09-17-2008, 01:25 PM
Life began billions of years ago, and it has yet to cease. Life is a chain, and we are one piece of that chain... who knows how long it lasts.. maybe forever, maybe not.

How did I know I was going to get this crap?

nate895
09-17-2008, 01:25 PM
How did I know I was going to get this crap?

Kade is logged on right now.

Highland
09-17-2008, 01:26 PM
Kade is logged on right now.

be nice fellas.:) this is a sensitive subject.

Hiki
09-17-2008, 01:32 PM
Life began billions of years ago, and it has yet to cease. Life is a chain, and we are one piece of that chain... who knows how long it lasts.. maybe forever, maybe not.

qft

SnappleLlama
09-17-2008, 01:42 PM
So how does one define life? It's true that human skin cells are alive and contain the same chromosomal makeup as the rest of the being; however, they cannot think, and they are absolutely dependent upon the rest of the body to maintain their survival.

Then again, plants can't think, but they certainly are alive.

...or are they?

nate895
09-17-2008, 01:45 PM
So how does one define life? It's true that human skin cells are alive and contain the same chromosomal makeup as the rest of the being; however, they cannot think, and they are absolutely dependent upon the rest of the body to maintain their survival.

Then again, plants can't think, but they certainly are alive.

...or are they?

They are alive, but that doesn't mean they're entitled to life. They have little-to-no potential to become human life.

Pete
09-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Being Alive and Human aren't a same thing. A frog is alive, but its not human, therefore it doesnt have Human Rights. Rights are a Human invention. THey are a abstract concept created by men.

As for this topic, I think technically, every cell in our body is "alive." and with the genetic science and engineering they have today, I believe its possible they could turn those cells into potential humans. Does that mean every time we scratch our skin, were committing genocide? I dont think so, because the potential of life isnt necessiarly life.

So, my views are that when a egg and spem unite, they are life, because the potential has been realized.

Very well said. You should consider becoming a legislator.

This abortion debate is never going to be settled as long as there are many who consider it to be murder, and a similar number who do not.

I'd just like to point out that Roe v. Wade was an ill-gotten victory in which federal powers were stretched through deception, much like the Federal Reserve. So, TPTB wish us to kill our young. That they want it that badly should be enough to make us at least question it.

SnappleLlama
09-17-2008, 02:00 PM
I think what's so frustrating about this subject is that one has to define what life is before it can be decided when life begins.

I'm giving myself a headache. :)

LibertiORDeth
09-17-2008, 02:06 PM
I just don't understand why it's so debatable when abortion is completely unnecessary. Maybe in the case of rape/risking the mother's life this discussion could be taking place, but I can't believe that you would abort an unborn baby, which debatably might be death, because... you can't use a condom or pill?

nate895
09-17-2008, 02:15 PM
I just don't understand why it's so debatable when abortion is completely unnecessary. Maybe in the case of rape/risking the mother's life this discussion could be taking place, but I can't believe that you would abort an unborn baby, which debatably might be death, because... you can't use a condom or pill?

Even if was because contraception didn't work, you always have adoption. If you get pregnant via a rape, you can still get someone to adopt the child.

SnappleLlama
09-17-2008, 02:18 PM
Ugh...I'll have to check on this thread later. Nice discussion! :)

acptulsa
09-17-2008, 02:34 PM
Even if was because contraception didn't work, you always have adoption. If you get pregnant via a rape, you can still get someone to adopt the child.

Two different animals in my opinion.

Rape is a terrible blow to the psyche for most, and to have to carry the product of it to term and wrestle with the hatred for the attacker mixed with the overpowering maternal instinct, in many cases, would amount to extending the misery of the attack to nine long, unendurable months. To top that off, it amounts to rewarding the rapist, who may have well decided that the chance to reproduce is well worth the time in prison. Thus it would encourage some to rape. Bad news.

So, I am all for making rape another issue entirely from non-forcible intercourse. Of course, this could result in some unscrupulous women filing false charges of rape just because they want to abort, so it isn't exactly cut-and-dried...

Depressing subject. :mad:

nate895
09-17-2008, 02:39 PM
Two different animals in my opinion.

Rape is a terrible blow to the psyche for most, and to have to carry the product of it to term and wrestle with the hatred for the attacker mixed with the overpowering maternal instinct, in many cases, would amount to extending the misery of the attack to nine long, unendurable months. To top that off, it amounts to rewarding the rapist, who may have well decided that the chance to reproduce is well worth the time in prison. Thus it would encourage some to rape. Bad news.

So, I am all for making rape another issue entirely from non-forcible intercourse. Of course, this could result in some unscrupulous women filing false charges of rape just because they want to abort, so it isn't exactly cut-and-dried...

Depressing subject. :mad:

But is the emotional distress really worth a human life?

We could always find a way to also make sure rapist don't know that they have children. Should be easy, given they're in prison.

acptulsa
09-17-2008, 02:42 PM
But is the emotional distress really worth a human life?

We could always find a way to also make sure rapist don't know that they have children. Should be easy, given they're in prison.

Trust me, the majority of criminals know the law--well--before they commit the crime.

What is the distress worth? I can never answer that question properly, but I am not against the death penalty for rapists.

fatjohn
09-17-2008, 02:43 PM
Human consciousness begins with the first brain cells.

BCR_9er
09-17-2008, 02:44 PM
Cells are living. So techniquely, all future babies are alive right now in their parents', grandparents', etc. sperm and eggs.

nate895
09-17-2008, 02:44 PM
Trust me, the majority of criminals know the law--well--before they commit the crime.

What is the distress worth? I can never answer that question properly, but I am not against the death penalty for rapists.

Agreed with the death penalty. Of course, that's one issue I disagree with Ron Paul on.

acptulsa
09-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Agreed with the death penalty. Of course, that's one issue I disagree with Ron Paul on.

And he makes good points on the subject. Mainly I am saying that I am for making the penalties for rape and murder the same.

EgwaTlvdatsi
09-17-2008, 02:53 PM
Where does life begin? Where does it end?

What I know is our bodies are made up of billions of atoms. Somehow these atoms are held together in a particular way to form what is considered as the DNA structure. Thus this DNA structure in turn works in a great communion, such as a more complex ant colony. Then somewhere throughout our growth the DNA and their hosts within our heads somehow work in a communion which conducts the colonies which exist within the rest of our bodies, most likely this is where our main conductors exist.

The only thing that makes us any different than any other living/nonlinving thing in creation is the fact that our atomic structure is held together and/or controlled in a different way, for if we take into account each smaller element then everything is the same...

Truth Warrior
09-17-2008, 03:14 PM
Hooray for reductio ad absurdum. :p :rolleyes:

LibertiORDeth
09-17-2008, 03:59 PM
Even if was because contraception didn't work, you always have adoption. If you get pregnant via a rape, you can still get someone to adopt the child.

Thus I said that part could be debatable.

muh_roads
09-17-2008, 04:01 PM
Life begins in my nut sack and trillions exit my man meat. They die after 20 minutes. I cause mass holocausts daily. Boy does it tucker me out.

Highland
09-17-2008, 04:16 PM
Life begins in my nut sack and trillions exit my man meat. They die after 20 minutes. I cause mass holocausts daily. Boy does it tucker me out.

gross...but great example of the debate.:D

lucius
09-17-2008, 05:00 PM
I just don't understand why it's so debatable when abortion is completely unnecessary. Maybe in the case of rape/risking the mother's life this discussion could be taking place, but I can't believe that you would abort an unborn baby, which debatably might be death, because... you can't use a condom or pill?

More Applied Eugenics--Adolf Hitler, just like Margaret Sanger, was an ardent disciple of theosophy and of Madame Blavatsky; this omission from these discussions is indicative of the degree of control over what Americans learn--Planned Eugenics/Parenthood is now 'policy agenda'; add this layer to the onion.

Margaret Sanger/Adolf Hitler, like peas in a pod, few of Sanger's pearls:


"The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the Minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

..."dysgenic races" [should include] "Fundamentalists and Catholics" [in addition to] "blacks, Hispanics, [and] American Indians." ~'Woman's Body, Woman's Right' by Linda Gorden

What a sweet woman...