Does Liberty lead to decadence?

[Conza88]

What do you think?


Discuss. :)

[acptulsa]

Sure it does. It leads to all kinds of things. But why focus on the bad ones? It also leads to productiveness, innovation, and the advancement of humankind. I think I can endure a little decadence for all that.

[Perry]

Liberty leads to decadence and centralized power leads to oppression. Choose your flavor.

[constituent]

IMO repression leads to decadence.

[acptulsa]

IMO repression leads to decadence.

There's more than a little truth to this, too. After all, the more hopeless a person is the more they'll live for only today. Plus, if your country does not inspire you, what will you do for the greater good?

[Kotin]

well for me it comes back to that saying that we need to be a moral people in order to keep our republican form of government and our liberty... it definetly can lead to decadence.. but its our responsibility as free men to prevent that..

[Rangeley]

Liberty doesn't lead to decadence. Decadence is sort of one of those things that any culture needs to deal with. The difference is that in a non-free society its left to the government to deal with the challenge, and in a free society its left to the people.

[FindLiberty]

No, but government leads to bondage.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with a result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:

>From bondage to spiritual faith;
>From spiritual faith to great courage;
>From courage to liberty;
>From liberty to abundance;
>From abundance to selfishness;
>From selfishness to complacency;
>From complacency to apathy;
>From apathy to dependency;
>From dependency back into bondage.

-- The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic
Alexander Fraser Tyler (1748 - 1813)

[Andrew-Austin]

A young society just reaping the rewards of capitalism might be decadent for a bit, but I imagine this would fade.

[cska80]

It seems liberty leads to an uninformed, spoiled, apathetic public which over the years has allowed government schools and media to remove or recreate our heritage to lead us into a society dependent and enslaved by government.

[constituent]

It seems liberty leads to an uninformed, spoiled, apathetic public which over the years has allowed government schools and media to remove or recreate our heritage to lead us into a society dependent and enslaved by government.

yea, that wasn't liberty.

sorry to ask this, but have you read much on the establishment of the system of "independent" school districts?

[acptulsa]

We should probably argue in public that it does, however. After all, decadence is an easy sell in certain circles. ;)

[constituent]

We should probably argue in public that it does, however. After all, decadence is an easy sell in certain circles. ;)

good thinking.

:D

[RonPaulR3VOLUTION]

What do you think?


Discuss. :)

Not at all. Quite the opposite. It is government control which has led people to see no reason for things like personal responsibility.

It amuses me to see people blame things like de-regulation for our problems, when it was decades of regulation which promoted the bad behavior to begin with. It is government control which has reinforced the worst behaviors in society. When the government punishes good behavior and rewards the bad, you will have a society made up of a lot of bad behavior.

So, will deregulation magically save us all after everyone has been trained for so long to act in the opposite of their best interests? No, not without a lot of pain first, anyway. Just as you would not raise a child in a bubble for 17 years, having no concept of living, and push him/her out of your front door, locking the door behind him/her, and hoping for the best.

I see this brought up every once in a while: that some magic band-aid of libertarianism should be able to be applied to decades of bad policy and miraculously fix everything, and if not it shows that libertarianism can't work. I doubt anything can magically fix decades of bad policy without some pain, but the answer is certainly not the same policies which got us into this mess.

Back to the original question, the other night Glenn Beck mentioned this: "Let me just give you this. This just came out from the census bureau. Those women that were receiving public assistance, those women who are on welfare, the birthrate is three times higher. What does that tell you?"

The very people who are trying to use government to stamp out 'immoral' behavior are the some of the same ones ensuring it will persist and in greater amounts.

"If you subsidize something, you get more of it." --Ron Paul

[Deborah K]

Lack of self discipline, on every level, is what leads to decadence, imo.

[acptulsa]

Lack of self discipline, on every level, is what leads to decadence, imo.

And isn't it amazing how little imposing discipline from without does to prevent it?

[raystone]

Here's an article I wrote for Lawrence Lepard's recently launched website thefreedomrevolution.com


Death of Bling and the Rise of Personal Responsibility

Somewhere in America, a father is telling his son that he cannot purchase another pair of $110 sneakers like last time, he must make do with a $50 pair. Somewhere in the country, a young woman is discarding her dream of Prada bag ownership and buying an environmentally friendly cotton purse. She tells herself it's better to go green, anyway.

No one wanted it to happen like this. No one wanted citizens across the United States to be forced to spend the balance of their paycheck--the balance that was previously discretionary income--on the basics of food, shelter, interest payments, everyday necessities, and rising gasoline and heating and cooling prices.

What does this do for bling? The concept of outflashing your neighbor, unlimited consumerism, materialism, debt, keeping up with (actually trying to surpass) the Jones'?

Bling is dead. Personal responsibility is being revived. It turns out self ownership was only mostly dead. When forced between a buying food or buying the latest Oakleys, practicality and self preservation still win out. Of course, this is especially true when the credit cards are maxed and the home equity line of credit is gone.

And yes, the desire for true liberty and freedom is alive and getting stronger. People across the country are waking up to the fact that when thought they were acting with liberty, they were actually taking the license to act financially recklessly. Liberty without responsibility is license.

Bling, consumerism, materialism, debt, and keeping up with the Jones are the antithesis of guarding liberty and adhering to the Constitution.

So, as consumer debt has risen in the past decades, the erosion of actual personal liberties has increased. And, of course, as social entitlements have grown in the past 30 years, personal responsibility for the care of self and immediate family has decreased.

Personal responsibility cannot exist without liberty, and liberty will not endure without responsibility.

Millions of U.S. citizens--those still looking for the government to rescue them time and time again, house and feed them indefinitely--need a wakeup call. Socialistic policies are theft, and the worst kind of disincentive to hard work and accountability.

This is the tough love I'm hoping to see from limited government candidates at all elected office levels across the country. Can someone tell it like it is? I would love to hear a candidate say:

"You won't like me as a candidate if you have been collecting welfare or foodstamps for more than 1 year. Don't vote for me if you are not intimately involved with the education of your children. I'm not your candidate if you are not actively managing the care of your elderly father or mother. If, instead, you want your government to leave you and your money alone, then vote for me. As Goldwater said, 'I'm not running for office to get laws passed, I'm running to get them repealed.'"

It's time for an Us vs. Them battle. A Self Ownership Belief vs. Social Entitlement Mentality battle for the country. Let's hope those on the other side lay down their public assistance checks and join us.

[Deborah K]

And isn't it amazing how little imposing discipline from without does to prevent it?

Yes, as you and Constituent have already so aptly pointed out.

Here's what wiki says about the word decadence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decadence

[SLSteven]

Does Liberty lead to decadence?

Lets try it and see...

[ruggedindividualist]

Some will engage in so-called "decadence", I suppose. But you've got to define "decadence". We seem to be in a pretty decadent culture right now, in my view. It all depends on your moral views. There are plenty of "stakeholders" yammering about the "need" for this or that regulation to make us "better" but most of this seems to have little to do with true morality and everything to do with perceived vices. The drug war, the war on fats in food, the war on tobacco, the war against "hate", the war on global warming (now morphing into the war on climate change, the better to encompass any and all weather phenomen), the war on "poverty", "illiteracy", the crusade against moral absolutes, etc., etc. What were once personal vices have been elevated to Great Evils by the humanists determined to mold perfect soviet men. Their worry that "we" will become "decadent" seems to mean simply that folks might engage in some of these non-PC vices.

If there are no moral absolutes how can we become "decadent"?? If "we" need a massive state regulating us into perfect behavior, who is watching the regulators??

No, the truth is that people become more decadent, less moral, when they bear no personal responsibility for their decisions. Your kids are ignorant and don't listen to you? Can't be your fault, you send them to school! Your lifestyle causing health issues?? The medical establishment is just ignoring your particular issues! Decide to "ride out" bad weather and need someone else to now risk their well-being to save you?? Not your fault! Kids being molested by the latest live-in boyfriend?? Why, you're a victim!! Mortgage companies and savings and loans deliberately taking on bad debt knowing the tax payers will bail them out. People are deliberately rude to each other because they do not have to rely on their goodwill or good name or the possibility that they may need that person some day. Families split up because they no longer need each other, they get government checks and go to state licensed nursing homes or schools or "retirement villages" or subsidized housing. Politicians and bureaucrats loot from hardworking stiffs and getting away with it even when caught.

Heaven forbid we should become "decadent!