Don...Questions about C4L Please.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Don , If you are around I have some questions on how the C4L came about.

Did Ron Paul come up with this concept?

Did Ron Paul seek out the staff for C4L?

OR

Did a group of people get together , put together a business plan and present it to Ron Paul.

If so...was the staff for C4L already in place per the business plan ..and Ron Paul just said..Ok lets do it.

TONES

[nullvalu]

hmm all very good questions

[torchbearer]

The Campaign for Liberty was originally Kent Snyder's idea... and he didn't live to see it to fruitition.
The C4L is backed by Ron, He has accepted the position of honorary chair. He is tying his reputation to this organization.

[torchbearer]

And yes, Ron and I really are reptilians who are here to loot you and stop the freedom movement. *bwahahaahahahassssssssssssssssssssss*

[tonesforjonesbones]

Look...I am really interested to know if this organization was motivated by Ron Paul...or if it was put forth by a group of people who came up with a business plan and presented it to Ron Paul and asked him to endorse it. I don't want to see Ron Paul OR his supporters used. TONES (remember some newsletters...AND the shocker that Ron Paul didn't really write his own book...who is profiting from it? I want to know who is profiting from all these endeavors in Ron Paul's name)

[tonesforjonesbones]

Don't forget....the Campaign for Liberty is no longer a grass roots project like the campaign was...it has handlers who are making salaries. Tones

[acptulsa]

Don't forget....the Campaign for Liberty is no longer a grass roots project like the campaign was...it has handlers who are making salaries. Tones

Ummm.... There were people in the campaign who were making salaries, too. Perhaps not in the more effective end of the campaign, but in the campaign nonetheless...

[tonesforjonesbones]

I am getting sick of people making lizard and shape shifter remarks if someone questions Ron Paul . are any of you free thinkers anymore ? Or have you all fallen into collectivism? I question EVERYTHING to include Ron Paul. I love his words...I just have to know that HE is actually driving the bus...or I'm getting off. You have GOT to watch out for non profits...because in most cases, whoever establishes them make high salaries and very little from grants and donations goes to the actual cause. If someone is using Ron Paul's name for gain ...and my money...I want to know about it. TOnes

[SnappleLlama]

TONES, I think you have some good questions. Nothing wrong with asking for transparency ;)

[constituent]

i think it should all be clear by now.


moving on.

[tonesforjonesbones]

What should be clear. No one has answered one question LOL> No one in the heiarchy of C4L anyway..and it's very doubtful if anyone on this forum has these answers. We aren't part of the "in" crowd lol. I'd like to know who is on the board and who the officers are and how they are related to Ron Paul. I have never seen that information on the web site. Tones

[tonesforjonesbones]

If Ron Paul didn't write the book...is he actually writing those letters that go out to us and someone from that non profit just stamps his name on it? Doesnt' anyone besides me wonder about those things? Tones

[constituent]

What should be clear. No one has answered one question LOL>

Nothing on earth more telling than silence, imo.



No one in the heiarchy of C4L anyway..and it's very doubtful if anyone on this forum has

Naah the hierarchy is on the forum, just ask Jeff Greenspan.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Who is jeff greenspan? What's his relationship with Ron Paul? See, I'm a weird kind of a girl. I would donate and work for an organization that was all volunteer...but when people start making salaries..etc...I have to know who started it, who the board members are and if they actually believe in the cause they are supporting ..or created a non profit for opportunity. Tones

[constituent]

This is Jeff Greenspan (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=21142)

[LibertyEagle]

Fair questions, Tones. Why don't you contact the C4L and ask them?

[acptulsa]

Fair questions, Tones. Why don't you contact the C4L and ask them?

Yes, why don't you?

Asking the people with the answers is called getting yourself informed. Asking the people without the answers is often called 'casting aspersions'.

[constituent]

Yes, why don't you?

Asking the people with the answers is called getting yourself informed. Asking the people without the answers is often called 'casting aspersions'.

rofl, b/c they've shown themselves to be responsive to questions, right....

right?

riiiiiiiiiiight............


besides, they're all here anyway.

[RickyJ]

Fair questions, Tones. Why don't you contact the C4L and ask them?

It should be on their web site. If not, then they should rectify that glaring omission immediately.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Because I have emailed them before and get no response. They dont' respond. I figured I'd have a chance of a response here because Don comes on here and posts things. I also kinda thought others would benefit from knowing the answers as well. So, how is Jeff Greenspan related to C4L? Is he on the board or the staff? just curious. Tones (LOL is vetting the cl4 heirarchy for grins and giggles)

[acptulsa]

It should be on their web site. If not, then they should rectify that glaring omission immediately.

Agreed. If they're going to preach transparency, and claim to actively support transparency, they need to practice it.

Lead by example, people.

[constituent]

Because I have emailed them before and get no response. They dont' respond. I figured I'd have a chance of a response here because Don comes on here and posts things. I also kinda thought others would benefit from knowing the answers as well. So, how is Jeff Greenspan related to C4L? Is he on the board or the staff? just curious. Tones (LOL is vetting the cl4 heirarchy for grins and giggles)

i don't know if anyone knows exact titles, ranks, or whatever...

i'm guessing RP is pope, but short of that i'm not certain.

[LibertyEagle]

Because I have emailed them before and get no response. They dont' respond. I figured I'd have a chance of a response here because Don comes on here and posts things. I also kinda thought others would benefit from knowing the answers as well. So, how is Jeff Greenspan related to C4L? Is he on the board or the staff? just curious. Tones (LOL is vetting the cl4 heirarchy for grins and giggles)

Like I said, it's a very fair question.

Last I knew, Don was on contract to do all the arranging for the Rally. J. Greenspan was a volunteer.

Not sure, but you might try posting your question on a blog over on their site too. They probably check those a whole lot more than reading here.

[tonesforjonesbones]

I don't think anyone is sure...that's why I'm asking. It's important to know who is on the board, what the by laws are, if there are by laws, Non profits are supposed to have by laws, political parties must have by laws. Is there an election process? When is the general election within the non profit? If you join for 35 dollars do you get a vote on things? See, these things are important if this is a grassroots operation, then it stands to reason any one of us could be nominated to be an officer or appointed to the board. Inquiring minds want to know. Tones

[LibertyEagle]

It should be on their web site. If not, then they should rectify that glaring omission immediately.

Yes, I agree.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Try asking them over on their site. It might yield better results. ;)

[james1844]

and yes, ron and i really are reptilians who are here to loot you and stop the freedom movement. *bwahahaahahahassssssssssssssssssssss*

lol

[tonesforjonesbones]

Aren't the moderators interested to know the answers to these questions? Don't you think it's important information for those who read these threads to know also? Most people don't know about how non profits work, and don't know what questions to ask. Tones

[mnewcomb]

Fair questions Tones.

I too would like to know who is employed/contracted and how much they are getting paid.

It's funny how Don can come here to ronpaulforums.com to incite some anti-Barr sentiment, but can't answer some simple questions about the Campaign for Liberty?

[LibertyEagle]

Aren't the moderators interested to know the answers to these questions? Don't you think it's important information for those who read these threads to know also? Most people don't know about how non profits work, and don't know what questions to ask. Tones

YES

YES

YES

I had already posted TWICE that I thought it was a fair question. Geesh.

But the C4L does not live here. They have their own site. So, if you want to increase your likelihood of getting an answer, it would behoove you to go ask them.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Yes I know there are ghost writers, but Ron Paul seems to be an advocate for truth and it surprised me that he'd allow something to go out in his name (AGAIN) without the fact that someone else actually wrote it. You see, I might have still bought the book if I'd known the truth, but at least I would have made an informed decision. I expect different from Ron Paul. I blindely support no one anymore...I was behind Bob Barr, but I can't do it anymore and it disturbs me that people who represent Ron Paul would spread falsehoods about Barr dropping out of the race merely to get media attention. I have to question things. I generally get in trouble for asking the "wrong questions". Tones

[tonesforjonesbones]

Bump!!!!!!!!!

[torchbearer]

Don't forget....the Campaign for Liberty is no longer a grass roots project like the campaign was...it has handlers who are making salaries. Tones

The Campaign for Liberty is about to provide us with tools that will make us powerful grassroots lobbyist and help us work our precincts.
The things that matter most in elections.
I was at all the training sessions, the leadership summit.. etc. All I saw was positives all around.
I'm sorry barr is getting bashed, but really, there is no reptilian scheme to keep you down.
Your attitude handles that job just fine.

[freelance]

I have to question things. I generally get in trouble for asking the "wrong questions". Tones

Well, don't let that stop you. You have a right to ask legitimate questions, and your questions are reasonable and legitimate.

[pauletteNV]

i don't know if anyone knows exact titles, ranks, or whatever...

i'm guessing RP is pope, but short of that i'm not certain.

Constituent, do you post under another screenname, too? Your antagonism sounds familiar. If you are not certain about your facts, or have an answer, why are you rambling on? Leave it. The question has been asked, give Don or someone who really knows the chance to answer.

I do agree with LibertyEagle...this is probably not the best place to get answers to your questions, Tones. I am not saying they are not valid quesitons to be asked, but you know what they say about perserverence. Try, try try again...over on C4L or by email. Look at all the negativity posted here without even a day or two to give time for response. Take a big breath and relax.

[Pete]

Tones, I suggest you start by asking C4L for a copy of their IRS Form 1024. That will answer a lot of your questions.

[Knightskye]

And we can dispel that Ferguson guy's claim that Ron Paul is "in the Ron Paul business."

[ladyjade3]

...and it disturbs me that people who represent Ron Paul would spread falsehoods about Barr dropping out of the race merely to get media attention.

The only source that is claiming that rumor came from offical staff was Russ Verney, who I would consider a questionable source at this point on this subject.

I frequently see rumors originated and circulated in these forums, however. Let's not allow whatever craziness that happens on here to get falsely pinned on official sources, when they started organically and randomly right here in the grassroots.

And getting miffed about that particular rumor is stupid anyway, considering Root was offering to drop out.

[constituent]

1) Constituent, do you post under another screenname, too? Your antagonism sounds familiar. 2) If you are not certain about your facts, or have an answer, 3) why are you rambling on?

1) lol, the sock puppet...

we've gone over projection here before...

Nope, at least not for criticism.. I do have another name, but i use that one more for policy advocacy than anything else.

I know you like to come out and cover his (Jeff Greenspan, that is) ass though, i've checked your posting history, but it's whatever to me.

Do you post under another screenname too?

2) I am certain about my facts, so thanks.

3) "Rambling on?" What's that supposed to mean?

Just another cheap shot perhaps? I've come to expect no less of your ilk.



Leave it. The question has been asked, give Don or someone who really knows the chance to answer.

What question? He asked if there was a way to get in touch w/ the folks through the message board. I answered his question per the FACT that they are all available through this site as well, ronpaulforums.com, even if they like to sneak around about it.



I do agree with LibertyEagle...this is probably not the best place to get answers to your questions, Tones.

Where is the place to get an answer?

and don't tell me their site, b/c if you believe that you're either full of hot air, benefiting financially (posturing to?) or willfully ignorant.

my guess is a combination of all the above.



I am not saying they are not valid quesitons to be asked, but you know what they say about perserverence. Try, try try again...over on C4L or by email.

cue "The Neverending Story" theme song



Look at all the negativity posted here

Yea Paulette, please do. You can start by clicking the link I provided Tones earlier.

Anything you could do to wrestle an apology out of your buddy for his actions here, including efforts to undermine the forum community, and a full explanation for his purpose in doing so would be appreciated.

Short of that, I will continue airing my displeasure when and if i find it appropriate to do so.

Mods and Admins have an open invitation to ban my account at anytime of their choosing.

k?thnx

[Matt Collins]

Tones -

I honestly do not think the CFL is an organization that is going to exist just to take people's money and then let the higher-ups live fat-cat lives off of it. I don't think Ron would allow it, and I don't think that the people that I met at the CFL events last week are those kinds of people.

Now that being said please realize the CFL is NOT a democratic organization. By that I mean there will be no election of officers at the national level. There will be no "constitutional convention" where all of the CFL members get together and draft charter documents. The national organization will be top down and centralized in power. Will this work? Who knows... I think having a strong central organization can have benefits, but it can also present problems too.

If it's going to be run anything like the campaign was then it would be better to have more loose non-centralized organization. If they are actually going to operate more effectively than the campaign did then some strong centralized planning isn't necessarily a bad thing. I am kind of disturbed a bit at the lack of input the national CFL is looking like they will accept from the boots on the ground.


At the moment the CFL doesn't have their act together. Last week during the leadership summit there were a few things that they simply couldn't answer because they hadn't decided upon themselves. In all fairness I think their attention was focused on getting the R4R together, not the long-term CFL. But if something substantial isn't out by the time January rolls around then I will be kind of conerned about the ineptitude of the organization.

So let's get through the election, wait, and see.

[Bradley in DC]

The only source that is claiming that rumor came from offical staff was Russ Verney, who I would consider a questionable source at this point on this subject.

I frequently see rumors originated and circulated in these forums, however. Let's not allow whatever craziness that happens on here to get falsely pinned on official sources, when they started organically and randomly right here in the grassroots.

And getting miffed about that particular rumor is stupid anyway, considering Root was offering to drop out.

The source has been several different Barr staffers (who may have all gotten it from Verney, who knows?). More tellingly has been the lack of denial by the CFL staffers. Perhaps Greenspan needs to create another sockpuppet to deny it?!

[ARealConservative]

YES

YES

YES

I had already posted TWICE that I thought it was a fair question. Geesh.

But the C4L does not live here. They have their own site. So, if you want to increase your likelihood of getting an answer, it would behoove you to go ask them.

Don sure wasted no time to rush over here and place this feud in the publics eye......

[torchbearer]

DId I mention representatives from the 3rd parties in Louisiana, along with Dems, Reps, and Indies are coming together Sept 20th to unify behind this ticket?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3085/2841290573_1ff17ce86d_b.jpg

[Bradley in DC]

Don sure wasted no time to rush over here and place this feud in the publics eye......

He and Greenspan ARE good at creating shitstorms...if only those won elections. :p

[pauletteNV]

1) lol, the sock puppet...

we've gone over projection here before...

Nope, at least not for criticism.. I do have another name, but i use that one more for policy advocacy than anything else.

I know you like to come out and cover his (Jeff Greenspan, that is) ass though, i've checked your posting history, but it's whatever to me.

Do you post under another screenname too?

2) I am certain about my facts, so thanks.

3) "Rambling on?" What's that supposed to mean?

Just another cheap shot perhaps? I've come to expect no less of your ilk.



What question? He asked if there was a way to get in touch w/ the folks through the message board. I answered his question per the FACT that they are all available through this site as well, ronpaulforums.com, even if they like to sneak around about it.



Where is the place to get an answer?

and don't tell me their site, b/c if you believe that you're either full of hot air, benefiting financially (posturing to?) or willfully ignorant.

my guess is a combination of all the above.



cue "The Neverending Story" theme song



Yea Paulette, please do. You can start by clicking the link I provided Tones earlier.

Anything you could do to wrestle an apology out of your buddy for his actions here, including efforts to undermine the forum community, and a full explanation for his purpose in doing so would be appreciated.

Short of that, I will continue airing my displeasure when and if i find it appropriate to do so.

Mods and Admins have an open invitation to ban my account at anytime of their choosing.

k?thnx


I'll just say that I am not a disruptor, nor a troll, but a supporter of Ron Paul and his message. Ron Paul supports C4L and considers it a necessary step in the R3volution, and (oh silly me), I believe him. When I see people like the Muths of the world attack people without warrant, I try to speak up for them. Just my nature. Jeff Greenspan I met at the NV Convention for a brief comment, but I do not know him personally. I would do the same for you Constituent if I found you in the right. Sure appreciate your taking all that time to go through and answer each segment of my post. I feel priviledged :)

Tones, I do truly understand your having questions. Since the new site will be up and running the first of October, I would expect many of your questions will be answered at that time. All of this fault-seeking is almost like we are looking for a way to assuage our disappointment in the Convention. Looking back, we have learned a great deal and now we must, imo, move on.

[ARealConservative]

He and Greenspan ARE good at creating shitstorms...if only those won elections. :p

I have learned my lesson.

I ran as far and as fast away from the C4L as I could when this story broke.

[Sandra]

Tone, kinda sounds like your mind os made on the C4L. Make sure you don't sound antagonistic if you are indeed asking them a question, or you will be ignored. It's your ball.

[pauletteNV]

Tone, kinda sounds like your mind os made on the C4L. Make sure you don't sound antagonistic if you are indeed asking them a question, or you will be ignored. It's your ball.

What's the old saying about the use of honey? Sandra, how's your weather been? Any fears your way due to Ike's arrival soon?

[Don]

My apologies for not spending more time on RPF looking for mentions of my name to respond to. That said, I am an open book.

I make about $800/wk after taxes or, given the hours, about $10/ hour. Considering that I have 2 degrees, 20 years of political experience and have to pay rent in D.C., this is a pittance and I eat a lot t.v. dinners (whichever are on sale). That said, there is no where in the world I would rather be.

I have no idea what the other staffers make, nor do I care.

As far as decision-making, all important decisions are vetted through Dr. Paul. Day-to-day operations are run by John Tate.

As far as responding to Verney, why? All he has is an unsubstantiated claim. We want to move on and get back to the serious business of building an organization that can advance the freedom movement, not engage in tit-for-tat with the Barr campaign.

On a general note about public relations, the more you add fuel to a fire, the longer it burns. I think people are smart enough to make up their own minds.

[constituent]

Sure appreciate your taking all that time to go through and answer each segment of my post. I feel priviledged :)


No problem, you said your peace, aired your concerns and were deserving of a response.

i like you paulette, don't let my sometime antagonistic tone lead you to feel otherwise.


sticking up for those you consider to be your friends is an admirable trait, even if i'm no fan of your friends, and i applaud you for it.

[Sandra]

What's the old saying about the use of honey? Sandra, how's your weather been? Any fears your way due to Ike's arrival soon?


Paulette, the wind is BAAADDD! We are already having gusts up to 40 mph and are expecting them in the 50's tonight. I can deal with some flooding because our house is raised but not the wind!

[ARealConservative]

My apologies for not spending more time on RPF looking for mentions of my name to respond to. That said, I am an open book.

I make about $800/wk after taxes or, given the hours, about $10/ hour. Considering that I have 2 degrees, 20 years of political experience and have to pay rent in D.C., this is a pittance and I eat a lot t.v. dinners (whichever are on sale).

I have no idea what the other staffers make, nor do I care.

As far as decision-making, all important decisions are vetted through Dr. Paul. Day-to-day operations are run by John Tate.

As far as responding to Verney, why? All he has is an unsubstantiated claim. We want to move on and get back to the serious business of building an organization that can advance the freedom movement, not engage in tit-for-tat with the Barr campaign.

On a general note about public relations, the more you add fuel to a fire, the longer it burns. I think people are smart enough to make up their own minds.


On real general note, Barr is running for a national office now based on the freedom movement, the C4L is just another foundation looking to the future.

You broke this tit for tat wide open and now pretend this isn’t what you wanted? Please, nobody is stupid enough to buy this!

Let’s start with a real simple question. How is it possible that Ron Paul opened the press conference acting unaware that Barr would not be showing up? You can print out fliers quicker then you can inform your boss of this major change in development? Explain this one first and our smart people can decide for themselves which story is more believable.

[constituent]

My apologies for not spending more time on RPF looking for mentions of my name to respond to. That said, I am an open book.

google can take care of that for ya.



I make about $800/wk after taxes or, given the hours, about $10/ hour.

I've taken issue w/ you over the content of your posts in the past, but believe you have really come a long way in terms of "you attitude" over the past month or so, and am comfortable saying that you've become an asset to the cfl.

which makes 10/hr. a crying shame.

your efforts are appreciated though. i know words alone don't keep the lights from getting cut off, but it's what i've got.

thanks

[pauletteNV]

Don,
No need for apologies, I'm sure you have other work to do. If it were up to me, you'd get a raise - no one should have to exist on tv-dinners. Interesting how we can make sacrifices in order to do something we love and believe in. You are obviously giving of your time and efforts way beyond your pay scale. Thank you for your loyalty and service to Dr. Paul, the C4L, and all of us.

[pauletteNV]

Paulette, the wind is BAAADDD! We are already having gusts up to 40 mph and are expecting them in the 50's tonight. I can deal with some flooding because our house is raised but not the wind!

We know all about wind...but to deal with a major storm and possible flooding, etc. Yikes, thinking positive for you and everyone in the southern states. Wind has always scared me. As a kid I was babysitting at a neighbors and the wind came up and as I looked out this huge picture window a 50 foot pine tree came crashing down towards me...within about a foot of hitting the window where I stood - frozen. Moral of the story...stay away from windows in a wind storm. Guess that is the source of my fear.

You and all patriots in affected areas take good care and know we are all wishing this storm a lessening of strength and a quick demise.

[BigFatRock]

You broke this tit for tat wide open and now pretend this isn’t what you wanted? Please, nobody is stupid enough to buy this!

So, you would prefer that the inevitable question of "why isn't Barr at the press conference" be left completely unanswered and ignored? The only thing Don did was explain why he wasn't there and the reactions of Barr's staff when he questioned them about it.


How is it possible that Ron Paul opened the press conference acting unaware that Barr would not be showing up? You can print out fliers quicker then you can inform your boss of this major change in development?

Maybe because Ron has demonstrated that he likes to think the best about people? Maybe he wasn't "acting" like he was unaware, but maybe he was hoping that Barr would change his mind and keep his word?

[Matt Collins]

I eat a lot t.v. dinners (whichever are on sale).I like a lot of the Boston Market and Marie Callander brands. They rock! :)

[Don]

Another important general rule of public relations is always get your story out first so the other party has to respond to your narrative instead of being put on the defensive and ceding ground from the start.

A final good general rule is never attack down. Always save your powder for the guy ahead of you. Just ask Rudy Guiliani about that.

[constituent]

A final good general rule is never attack down. Always save your powder for the guy ahead of you.

ahhhh yes,

http://www.sbceo.k12.ca.us/~vms/carlton/julius4.jpg



politics

[acptulsa]

Another important general rule of public relations is always get your story out first so the other party has to respond to your narrative instead of being put on the defensive and ceding ground from the start.

A final good general rule is never attack down. Always save your powder for the guy ahead of you. Just ask Rudy Guiliani about that.

Ain't politics wonderful? Thanks for bothering to come and speak with us, Don. The Barr campaign seems to lack that much respect for us.

Will the C4L be posting all their relevant financials on the site at some point? Seems a not imprudent thing to do...

[Sandra]

PauletteNV, I think Galveston is in for it bad.

[ARealConservative]

Another important general rule of public relations is always get your story out first so the other party has to respond to your narrative instead of being put on the defensive and ceding ground from the start.

A final good general rule is never attack down. Always save your powder for the guy ahead of you. Just ask Rudy Guiliani about that.

This is a rare moment of honesty from you.

So the point in running over here and throwing an active third party campaign under the bus is because you wanted to get your version out first.

The big problem is you have no campaign in 2008 to defend. So apparently the C4L is in the Ron Paul business, just as they charged. Your priority is not to get votes for liberty candidates, it is to defend the actions of the C4L and Ron Paul.

[acptulsa]

This is a rare moment of honesty from you.

So the point in running over here and throwing an active third party campaign under the bus is because you wanted to get your version out first.

The big problem is you have no campaign in 2008 to defend. So apparently the C4L is in the Ron Paul business, just as they charged. Your priority is not to get votes for liberty candidates, it is to defend the actions of the C4L and Ron Paul.

Did they throw the Barr campaign under the bus or did it jump off the curb of its own volition?

What makes you think the LP wouldn't have gotten the greatest gain from the press conference as it was if only they hadn't gotten in a snit and did their level damndest to short-circuit it?

Doesn't wash, ARC. There's no proof of your allegations, and they make no logical sense either. Barr un-invited himself. No one else kept him away.

[mnewcomb]

Please use all of your 20 years political experience to impress upon the C4L to open up their financials. This crowd is not one you want to get on the bad side of...

[ARealConservative]

Did they throw the Barr campaign under the bus or did it jump off the curb of its own volition?

What makes you think the LP wouldn't have gotten the greatest gain from the press conference as it was if only they hadn't gotten in a snit and did their level damndest to short-circuit it?

Doesn't wash, ARC. There's no proof of your allegations, and they make no logical sense either.


Don just proved the allegations. Look what he said – the point was to get C4L’s version out first. Attack up, not down. They went on the attack to defend a non campaign. They actions contradict their stated goals of helping the third party candidates.

Bob Barr hurts the neocons by copying a small portion of their platform – like personal responsibility and limited government. Appearing with Nader and the Green Party candidate totally undermines this message…..or atleast he felt so and since it is his campaign to run, he did what he thought was right. But again, Ron Paul refused to run third party, so he doesn’t get to lead the campaign. Apparently this angered the egos of those in the C4L.

Ron Paul backed out on a Beck interview – I don’t recall everyone defending Beck for this slight when he was angered and struck back. I’m utterly amazed at the hypocrisy in this movement. Cult of personality is sounding more and more accurate with each new thread.

[torchbearer]

Attack up means, Barr isn't worth attacking.
I think you missed the meaning of the words expressed.

[acptulsa]

Don just proved the allegations. Look what he said – the point was to get C4L’s version out first. Attack up, not down. They went on the attack to defend a non campaign. They actions contradict their stated goals of helping the third party candidates.

Bob Barr hurts the neocons by copying a small portion of their platform – like personal responsibility and limited government. Appearing with Nader and the Green Party candidate totally undermines this message…..or atleast he felt so and since it is his campaign to run, he did what he thought was right. But again, Ron Paul refused to run third party, so he doesn’t get to lead the campaign. Apparently this angered the egos of those in the C4L.

Ron Paul backed out on a Beck interview – I don’t recall everyone defending Beck for this slight when he was angered and struck back. I’m utterly amazed at the hypocrisy in this movement. Cult of personality is sounding more and more accurate with each new thread.

Uh huh. Yeah, I worship Ron Paul and want to have his baby, riiiiiiight...:rolleyes:

I still see nothing wrong with Ron Paul's idea concerning the press conference. I still don't see why Barr couldn't have provided an accurate RSVP. I still don't see why, assuming the rumor is even true, the alleged whisper campaign about Barr dropping out would have resulted in anything but more attention for Barr. I don't see how Paul was trying to run Barr's campaign any more than he was trying to run Nader's, McKinney's or Baldwin's. And I don't see why Barr's campaign should be considered so worthy that the C4L should scuttle its own existence to cover for a Barr hissy fit.

Or, to put it shortly and bluntly, fail.

[ARealConservative]

Uh huh. Yeah, I worship Ron Paul and want to have his baby, riiiiiiight...:rolleyes:

I still see nothing wrong with Ron Paul's idea concerning the press conference. I still don't see why Barr couldn't have provided an accurate RSVP. I still don't see why, assuming the rumor is even true, the alleged whisper campaign about Barr dropping out would have resulted in anything but more attention for Barr. I don't see how Paul was trying to run Barr's campaign any more than he was trying to run Nader's, McKinney's or Baldwin's. And I don't see why Barr's campaign should be considered so worthy that the C4L should scuttle its own existence to cover for a Barr hissy fit.

Or, to put it shortly and bluntly, fail.

Act mature, I didn't accuse you of having a crush

There was nothing wrong with Ron Paul’s idea. I also see nothing wrong with Bob Barr having a change of heart after being provided the text of the speech.

The problem I have is how both campaigns have acted. Based on the pure timing of information released, The C4L was first to public with the feud and also actively disrupted the Barr press conference. They lobbied supporters to choose the C4L over the Barr campaign, even though the C4L has no active role in the 2008 elections. For this, I give them the lions share of the blame for the PR hit.

[Bradley in DC]

Attack up means, Barr isn't worth attacking.
I think you missed the meaning of the words expressed.

Wait, so Barr isn't worth attacking but his staffers are? (reason why Don would initiate a few different threads attacking them) :confused:

[ARealConservative]

Attack up means, Barr isn't worth attacking.
I think you missed the meaning of the words expressed.

quote is your friend

[torchbearer]

Wait, so Barr isn't worth attacking but his staffers are? (reason why Don would initiate a few different threads attacking them) :confused:

If someone told me to fuck off, or told one of my associates to fuck up, i'd have a problem with them too.
Adrien wasn't suprised by Corey's behavior(he deals with him often), he's digging into it more... but acting like Barr didn't make a retarded political move is absurd.

[torchbearer]

quote is your friend

I'm not really advocating a position in the sense that i really give a fuck... i don't care what your reality is.
But it does look silly how people are trying to spin this...

[torchbearer]

Should I go into the details of how Bob Barr screwed up getting on the ballot in Louisiana?
The easiest state in the union to get on the ballot?

I've seen bradley trash Ron's people in his PCC... but I haven't seen him trash Barr over his campaign's incompetance.
I can't make excuses for the guy anymore. I've got first hand info on the louisiana situation.
Badnarik had more organization than Barr.

[acptulsa]

Act mature, I didn't accuse you of having a crush

Obviously I have a fuzzy idea of the meaning of the word 'cult'.


The problem I have is how both campaigns have acted. Based on the pure timing of information released, The C4L was first to public with the feud and also actively disrupted the Barr press conference. They lobbied supporters to choose the C4L over the Barr campaign, even though the C4L has no active role in the 2008 elections. For this, I give them the lions share of the blame for the PR hit.

Don wanted to give his side, and felt it wiser to do it sooner rather than later. I don't blame him for that. I wasn't aware that Adam Kokesh is the official spokesman for the C4L, and I don't know who else spoke out at Barr's shindig. Aside from that, I don't see what is so great, liberty-minded and/or trustworthy about the Barr campaign that the C4L should risk going under the bus in order to save the Barr campaign from itself. If Barr had some rebuttal to part of Paul's speech, why on earth didn't he say so right in front of the exact same cameras? He did have that opportunity.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Don thank you so much for responding!

I believe the LP has their nose bent out of shape since many left the LP to support Ron Paul, Ron Paul turned down their invitation to run on their ticket when he lost the primaries, Ron Paul's supporters didn't flock to the LP, Ron Paul endorsed 4 candidates rather than Bob Barr, Ron Paul turned down their invitation to run as Bob Barr's VP. The LP is split..can't seem to get it together. I'm not sure I trust Verney. They can't fundraise. They can't get on ballots. I think Badnarik left the LP and is now an independent. I had to leave the LP and end my support for Barr due to this fiasco.

That being said, I'm not so sure Ron Paul is driving the bus at C4L, I'm not crazy about C4L not being a real grassroots activist group...I'd like to see a more parlimentarian process...not a SET board of directors, to include grassroots...there should be a nominating committee and elections of officers, otherwise I just don't really consider it a grassroots program. I would like to have seen it a volunteer organization from the top down. I would at least like to see a list of who the officers are and the by laws...I dont' really care about salaries that much. I would just like more grassroots involvement from the top down..so the same people aren't in control. I guess I feel like C4L was cooked up by a group of like minded insiders...and to be honest, I don't really feel like the grass roots are a part of it...no decision making from the bottom, and C4l will make money by selling their program and materials so the directors can make their dough. I'm not saying it isn't legit...I'm just saying I don't really believe it to be a grass roots activist organization. I would suspect that Mr. Tate and his board are the decision makers and this was all worked out behind the scenes during the campaign. I'm not a troll, or a dissenter...I mean, I'm not trying to discourage ANYONE from participating...not at all. I just don't know if I'm into it. Tones

[tonesforjonesbones]

But I really LOVE Ron Paul. I'd also like to thank Matt for some honest answers and for not calling me a reptilian. Tones

[Mahkato]

That being said, I'm not so sure Ron Paul is driving the bus at C4L, I'm not crazy about C4L not being a real grassroots activist group...I'd like to see a more parlimentarian process...not a SET board of directors, to include grassroots...there should be a nominating committee and elections of officers, otherwise I just don't really consider it a grassroots program.

I think this will happen once we have a solid foundation built with the Precinct Leader program. PLs will elect BPOU chairs, which will elect District chairs, which will elect State chairs, which will elect the board. Or something like that. To get started, though, we just have to deal with some appointed officers.

[constituent]

I'd also like to thank Matt for some honest answers.

+1 promotion time comes around.... well, that guy's earned it.

[constituent]

I think this will happen once we have a solid foundation built with the Precinct Leader program. PLs will elect BPOU chairs, which will elect District chairs, which will elect State chairs, which will elect the board. Or something like that.

myself and many others find this whole prospect rather unappealing.

more bureaucratic non-sense, imo.

more like a club (and no, not the beatin' kind either) than a direct-action force to be reckoned with.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Oh hey thanks..that's good to know...that sounds a little better. Tones

[acptulsa]

more like a club (and no, not the beatin' kind either) than a direct-action force to be reckoned with.

Yes, but how else is accountability to be maintained? Dr. Paul won't live forever, and we didn't create this so the next neocon-like group could take it over and use it against the cause of liberty in a decade's time.

[torchbearer]

The CFL state structures are maintained by the same grassroots people who helped Ron's campaign.
As in, Our State Coordinator- just a grassroots guy.
Our Asst. State Coordinator- me
Our district reps- all grassroots activist from our meet-ups.

Yup- sounds like a nazi club to stiffle the freedom movement.

[ARealConservative]

The CFL state structures are maintained by the same grassroots people who helped Ron's campaign.
As in, Our State Coordinator- just a grassroots guy.
Our Asst. State Coordinator- me
Our district reps- all grassroots activist from our meet-ups.

Yup- sounds like a nazi club to stiffle the freedom movement.

you aren't the people that decided to go public with this internal feud.

But keep propping up the easy straw men to knock down. :rolleyes:

[acptulsa]

The CFL state structures are maintained by the same grassroots people who helped Ron's campaign.
As in, Our State Coordinator- just a grassroots guy.
Our Asst. State Coordinator- me
Our district reps- all grassroots activist from our meet-ups.

Yup- sounds like a nazi club to stiffle the freedom movement.

No, not hardly. But I can't blame the organizers for wanting to set up a structure to keep control of it firmly in those same type of hands. Long term thinking is rare in politics, and I for one want to see more of it.

[Matt Collins]

I'd also like to thank Matt for some honest answers and for not calling me a reptilian.


+1 promotion time comes around.... well, that guy's earned it.

Ohhh geeze... ha ha ha for every friend I have on here I am sure I have 3 people who hate my guts :cool:

[torchbearer]

No, not hardly. But I can't blame the organizers for wanting to set up a structure to keep control of it firmly in those same type of hands. Long term thinking is rare in politics, and I for one want to see more of it.

that was sarcasm at the end.;)

[Mahkato]

That being said, I'm not so sure Ron Paul is driving the bus at C4L, I'm not crazy about C4L not being a real grassroots activist group...I'd like to see a more parlimentarian process...not a SET board of directors, to include grassroots...there should be a nominating committee and elections of officers, otherwise I just don't really consider it a grassroots program.

I think this will happen once we have a solid foundation built with the Precinct Leader program. PLs will elect BPOU chairs, which will elect District chairs, which will elect State chairs, which will elect the board. Or something like that. To get started, though, we just have to deal with some appointed officers.

[Mahkato]

myself and many others find this whole prospect rather unappealing.

more bureaucratic non-sense, imo.

more like a club (and no, not the beatin' kind either) than a direct-action force to be reckoned with.

I see it more as being organized as a constitutional republic. Politics is local, so an effective grassroots organization has to be organized locally, with representative leadership.

[Don]

I see it more as being organized as a constitutional republic. Politics is local, so an effective grassroots organization has to be organized locally, with representative leadership.

Ding ding ding. Exactly!

[torchbearer]

you aren't the people that decided to go public with this internal feud.

But keep propping up the easy straw men to knock down. :rolleyes:

We are out to get you!
boo!
:rolleyes:

Ever stop to think, that when you are downing the CFL, you are downing the grassroots?
Who do you think make the CFL work? Not the 6 people in an office somewhere.
It is us... I find it offensive that you are working against me. I haven't worked against you.
Are you looking for division and a fight? Wanna tear this movement apart?
WE can do that too. Whatever you want, let's get it going...
Maybe you will get what you want.. nothing done.

[ARealConservative]

We are out to get you!
boo!
:rolleyes:

Ever stop to think, that when you are downing the CFL, you are downing the grassroots?
Who do you think make the CFL work? Not the 6 people in an office somewhere.
It is us... I find it offensive that you are working against me. I haven't worked against you.
Are you looking for division and a fight? Wanna tear this movement apart?
WE can do that too. Whatever you want, let's get it going...
Maybe you will get what you want.. nothing done.

hello.....

Up until I witnessed Don come in here and work actively to tear the movement apart, I was a defender of the C4L (and your vanishing funds)

The C4L is under my microscope right now. You don't need to answer my questions, but I would like Don to.

I don't believe for a second that the Barr camp wanted anything more then to not be a part of the Nader, Green, no vote speech. This only became a huge rift because C4L chose to make it so. They aren't the ones looking to maximize votes in this election and it shows in how they are handling this.

[pauletteNV]

PauletteNV, I think Galveston is in for it bad.

all at once - not a good scenario. You'all down south button up tight!

[torchbearer]

hello.....

Up until I witnessed Don come in here and work actively to tear the movement apart, I was a defender of the C4L (and your vanishing funds)

The C4L is under my microscope right now. You don't need to answer my questions, but I would like Don to.

I don't believe for a second that the Barr camp wanted anything more then to not be a part of the Nader, Green, no vote speech. This only became a huge rift because C4L chose to make it so. They aren't the ones looking to maximize votes in this election and it shows in how they are handling this.

Actually, Didn't mean it to sound that way, read it in your quote.
My funds haven't vanished, they are now materials for my city council run.
I only share my hand with my donors. But, Hey I'm getting used to people accusing me of fraud. Starting to grow on me, maybe I should try it someday. ;)

How has Don worked actively to destroy this movement?
Barr had no part to play in it?
Have you asked the Barr campaign what happened to their ballot access in Louisiana? Perhaps that was the CFL's fault too?
Don kept Barr off the ballot? Or did Barr fuck up again?

I was a defender of Barr, I pushed people to vote for Barr instead of wasting a write-in vote, but the CFL has nothing to do with Barr's mistakes.

[BKom]

hello.....



Hello right back at you. Hey, Arealconservative, I am curious about something. I'm collecting answers to this question and it is completely serious.

What is a conservative?

Since you're a "real" one, I figured you could give me a thoughtful answer. Thanks.

[dr. hfn]

Wait a minute now! People in the Campaign for Liberty are making money off of our donations! Thats not good, we musn't succumb to corruption like the Repubs/Dems did. I hope their salaries are low, they need to be in it for Liberty, not money.

Like New Hampshire, the Reps only get pid $100 per year! True Patriots!!!

[torchbearer]

Wait a minute now! People in the Campaign for Liberty are making money off of our donations! Thats not good, we musn't succumb to corruption like the Repubs/Dems did. I hope their salaries are low, they need to be in it for Liberty, not money.

Like New Hampshire, the Reps only get pid $100 per year! True Patriots!!!

Don't donate. Personally, I find it helpful to have full time paid staff putting together the tools i need because i don't have the time to do it myself.
This isn't funded by government taxation, whereas, you have no choice.. but instead, you have a choice.
Join those not participating... and at the same time, knocking the CFL.
or Join those who are participating and give it your all because there is a plan to take this country back, and begins with a precinct program.
It really is a choice.

[ARealConservative]

Actually, Didn't mean it to sound that way, read it in your quote.
My funds haven't vanished, they are now materials for my city council run.
I only share my hand with my donors. But, Hey I'm getting used to people accusing me of fraud. Starting to grow on me, maybe I should try it someday. ;)

I didn't say they vanished. I said (meant) I defended you against the charge of vanishing funds.


How has Don worked actively to destroy this movement?

By trying to divide us over petty press conference grandstanding.


Barr had no part to play in it?

He clearly could of handled the situation better, but going this apeshit over getting cold feat in a press conference is not worthy of the "unofficial" CFL response.


Have you asked the Barr campaign what happened to their ballot access in Louisiana? Perhaps that was the CFL's fault too?
Don kept Barr off the ballot? Or did Barr fuck up again?

Both campaigns have been run badly. I have tried to defend them against all the little mistakes, but now we have a case of the CFL attacking an active candidate and it's crazy. The longer they don't stand down and try to smooth this over the more their intentions come into question.

[michigan wolverine]

I think Barr withdrew his attending for a good reason. If it was my campaign and Nader and McKinney were going to be there and there was no difference in the campaigns being stated in the press conference I would have withdrawn also. I would object to being group of socialist also.

I in good faith could not tell people that all of those candidates was deserving of someone's vote. There is too much difference between Barr, Baldwin any Nader, McKinney. It sure could be construed as a slap in the face of Barr.

Now if Dr. Paul did not want to endorse Baldwin over Barr or vice versa I can understand that. But then don't include Nader and Mc Kinney in the press conference. They may agree on the four points in the press conference. But they are vastly different on all the others.

Nothing is worse then voting for or against a candidate because you agree or disagree on one, two, three or four policies. I vote for the candidate that offers me the most freedom.

[torchbearer]

I didn't say they vanished. I said (meant) I defended you against the charge of vanishing funds.



By trying to divide us over petty press conference grandstanding.



He clearly could of handled the situation better, but going this apeshit over getting cold feat in a press conference is not worthy of the "unofficial" CFL response.



Both campaigns have been run badly. I have tried to defend them against all the little mistakes, but now we have a case of the CFL attacking an active candidate and it's crazy. The longer they don't stand down and try to smooth this over the more their intentions come into question.

The CFL, by law, cannot attack a candidate.
I noticed that Don's special title is no longer valid. Perhaps you should ask him if he speaks on behalf of the CFL.
That would be a good place to start.

[LibertyEagle]

hello.....

Up until I witnessed Don come in here and work actively to tear the movement apart, I was a defender of the C4L (and your vanishing funds)

The C4L is under my microscope right now. You don't need to answer my questions, but I would like Don to.

I don't believe for a second that the Barr camp wanted anything more then to not be a part of the Nader, Green, no vote speech. This only became a huge rift because C4L chose to make it so. They aren't the ones looking to maximize votes in this election and it shows in how they are handling this.

What are you talking about?

Barr is the one who snubbed Ron Paul AND US by snubbing the press conference.

Barr is the one whose staff then proceeded to write articles for BARR'S campaign website, dissing Ron Paul, CFL and US.

Barr is the one who went on Cavuto and continued the dissing.

Yes, I would love to see this stopped. Barr needs to step up and put his big boy pants on AND APOLOGIZE. He's acting like an overgrown child that his having a temper tantrum. By his entry into the presidential race, he apparently thought he deserved an automatic endorsement by Ron Paul. He also apparently thought all of Ron Paul's supporters would latch onto his campaign and donate to him, like we did for Paul. Neither happened and he's pounding his fists on the floor. Grow up, Barr.

[constituent]

Yes, I would love to see this stopped. Barr needs to step up and put his big boy pants on AND APOLOGIZE. He's acting like an overgrown child that his having a temper tantrum. By his entry into the presidential race, he apparently thought he deserved an automatic endorsement by Ron Paul. He also apparently thought all of Ron Paul's supporters would latch onto his campaign and donate to him, like we did for Paul. Neither happened and he's pounding his fists on the floor. Grow up, Barr.

excellent analysis.


Bob Barr.....

you know what to do

http://bp1.blogger.com/_vnX0jYkqpkM/R1oJRyjeizI/AAAAAAAAAV4/8xTHz6iyDXk/s400/hammerpants1.jpg

[greenspj]

This is Jeff Greenspan (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=21142)

No. I'm Jeff Greenspan.

I have no idea why this person "constituent" feels the need to attack me constantly. I have no idea who s/he even is or what his/her beef is.

Knock it off. Do something useful.

BTW, I'm a volunteer just like everyone else.

[Matt Collins]

No. I'm Jeff Greenspan.Hey. I am not accusing you of anything, but it has been suggested, and I am just curious... Did you sign on these forums using the name Paul_Delegate?

[constituent]

No. I'm Jeff Greenspan.

I have no idea why this person "constituent" feels the need to attack me constantly. I have no idea who s/he even is or what his/her beef is.

Knock it off. Do something useful.

BTW, I'm a volunteer just like everyone else.

[this is just pitiful, certainly you must realize the "" constituent gives you away]

lol. i'm here.

we've seen the screenshot of your accounts, give up the ghost.

you know exactly what the beef is and why, so cut the shit.


but if you're ready for one more round, step on up.

i don't think it's going to help your case though.

[constituent]

Hey. I am not accusing you of anything, but it has been suggested, and I am just curious... Did you sign on these forums using the name Paul_Delegate's ?

might ditch the apostrophe -s or he'll squirm off on the technicality.

[constituent]

http://i34.tinypic.com/2qlh8ub.jpg








the first blacked out name is "greenspj."

[Danke]

http://i34.tinypic.com/2qlh8ub.jpg








the first blacked out name is "greenspj."

You admin?

[constituent]

You admin?

naaah, just an average joe.

[ARealConservative]

the first blacked out name is "greenspj."

two people in the C4L office could have identical IP's over a period of time.......

[Matt Collins]

two people in the C4L office could have identical IP's over a period of time.......That's one possibility. But that's why I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am asking Mr Greenspan if he was the person who logged in as Paul_Delegate.

[constituent]

two people in the C4L office could have identical IP's over a period of time.......

put it this way, assuming there are computers at the CFL office (and that the IP listed actually links to the CFL office), they'd better be getting put to better use than trolling the RPF.

your argument, if true, would only make the situation worse. let us hope that isn't the case.

[Matt Collins]

I wonder why Mr. Greenspan isn't answering my question? :confused:

[tonesforjonesbones]

People do troll this forum to see what's being discussed. I saw it on CNN. Tones

[Sally08]

You admin?

Constituent isn't an admin, but I think Josh qualifies:D

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1650644&postcount=41
Paul_Delegate stick with your original account, you've had your fun.

Paul_Delegate was banned at that point.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1650727&postcount=55
Screenshot published by Josh (per LE's request) that was quoted by Constituent.

Note: Josh did *not* challenge Constituent's statements as to Jeff Greenspan posting as Paul_Delegate (particularly given the context of attacking Matt Colin's threads about the CFL training experience)-

Do your own research.

You can start with a search on all posts by PAUL_DELEGATE.

Better yet, take a look at the thread in Vent, http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=153380

[angelatc]

I am getting sick of people making lizard and shape shifter remarks if someone questions Ron Paul . are any of you free thinkers anymore ? Or have you all fallen into collectivism? I question EVERYTHING to include Ron Paul. I love his words...I just have to know that HE is actually driving the bus...or I'm getting off. You have GOT to watch out for non profits...because in most cases, whoever establishes them make high salaries and very little from grants and donations goes to the actual cause. If someone is using Ron Paul's name for gain ...and my money...I want to know about it. TOnes

Hey Tones, it's not just you. Wanted you to know that.

[angelatc]

The CFL state structures are maintained by the same grassroots people who helped Ron's campaign.
As in, Our State Coordinator- just a grassroots guy.
Our Asst. State Coordinator- me
Our district reps- all grassroots activist from our meet-ups.

Yup- sounds like a nazi club to stiffle the freedom movement.

But some of us are hoping that the advertising people aren't the same folks who did New Hampshire, for example.

I love Ron Paul, and I think everybody on his staff is pretty pleasant. But I'd like to see some goals successfully achieved, and I'd like to see some accountability if those goals aren't achieved.

Maybe I spent too much time in the corporate world - I don't know.

[angelatc]

Ohhh geeze... ha ha ha for every friend I have on here I am sure I have 3 people who hate my guts :cool:

As long as they know your name you're ahead of the game.

[Sally08]

Maybe I spent too much time in the corporate world - I don't know.

Do I ever agree with you there!

I've never been aware of such a contrast between corporate politics *with rules* (kinda) and campaign politics.

Maybe it's just the "laissez-faire" attitude towards everything in the campaign and, now, CFL, but I can't imagine trying to accomplish anything in that kind of environment.

As a consultant, I've encountered corporate environments that had no project plans or could even explain what I was supposed to accomplish.

I either ended up an angel or a devil! I did way more than they thought or I didn't do anything towards what they *didn't* tell me to do:rolleyes:

And that total lack of a mission with a project plan of discrete action steps (with hours and dollars and target date) destroys the CFL credibility for me.

And having visited the CFL "test site", I felt there were major delays in the monthly tasks mentioned:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1675004&postcount=99

I also found the site to be quite weak compared with corporate website standards for usability and accessibility.

More reinventing the wheel vs. asking for help from those with expertise in the area, a major problem all along.

Aren't there HQ funds still available to hire experts for specific short-term projects??:confused:

[Bprimbs]

I know the CFL does have computers. Other professional campaigns use metrics to measure their success.

Obama used project management and metrics efficiently to win the nomination.

Other campaigns employ cutting edge management consulting skills.

There is no reason why CFL shouldn't employ these skills as well.

[constituent]

I know the CFL does have computers. Other professional campaigns use metrics to measure their success.

Obama used project management and metrics efficiently to win the nomination.

Other campaigns employ cutting edge management consulting skills.

There is no reason why CFL shouldn't employ these skills as well.

Forum trolling and sock-puppetry are what you consider to be "cutting edge management consulting skills?"

christ, this ship sunk before it ever sailed. depressing.

[Sally08]

I know the CFL does have computers. Other professional campaigns use metrics to measure their success.

Obama used project management and metrics efficiently to win the nomination.

Other campaigns employ cutting edge management consulting skills.

There is no reason why CFL shouldn't employ these skills as well.

Actually, I read your post to mean exactly the opposite of Constituent.

So, which way did you mean it?

As in why CFL *isn't* using those skills?

Or including "sock puppetry" as an *example* of those skills? :rolleyes:

If your point was that CFL *isn't* using management consulting skills, project management, or metrics, I would definitely agree with you:D