mmink15
09-10-2008, 02:33 PM
Earlier today, Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) held a press conference in Washington, D.C. where he said…well, nothing...
*actually Ron Paul put together an outline of how to convince the average American to vote third-party. His 4-point outline of what the top third party candidates agree on can be a useful tool when waking up average apathetic voters and non-voters as to how similar top 2 parties are and how other options offered can be productive. Also, if Barr had attended, Ron Paul and his organization could have looked back at the 2008 election after it is over and lump all involved candidates votes to present the argument over future elections that there ARE enough voters who won't vote Dem/Rep to actually make a difference.*
He invited Libertarian Party Presidential nominee Bob Barr and independent Presidential candidate Ralph Nader along with the nominees of two small, minor political parties to stand behind him as he encouraged Americans to vote for anyone other than Sens. Barak Obama and John McCain.
*I would say that Ron Paul spent most of his time discussing party system, issues, debate and ballot access. It was much more than him getting up there and saying,"Don't vote for who they tell you to vote for. And the fact that those 2 minor candidates could, in theory, win enough electoral votes to become president makes that "nominees of two small, minor political parties" comment show that Barr's campaign did not grasp the focus of this event. This wasn't a press conference about winning this years election, it was about getting our voices heard on key issues, which no third party candidate since Ross Perot has been able to do. All Bob Barr's avoidance of the press conference did was do harm to that possibility."
Ron Paul wasted the press corps' time with this press conference. It accomplished nothing and displayed a complete lack of leadership on Paul's part.
*I would say that getting 3 of the 6 people that are not mathematically eliminated from the presidential nomination in the same room to show that there is still an option for those Americans that believe in cicil liberties, government accountability, and have them willingly share stage and mic time without attacking each other is an accomplishment that takes more leadership than you realize. If there is a lack of leadership shown it was only due to the fact that one of the guys who said he'd be there bailed at the last minute.**
Of the four invitees, only Bob Barr had the sense to skip the event. He held his own press conference, also in Washington, D.C., later in the day.
*And time will tell which press conference has more impact on the election, I doubt history will remember Bob Barr and Ron Paul with the same esteem, regard, and respect.*
Among the things in Ron Paul's statement was a reference to the "principled non-voter", claiming they are sending a message and should start a "League of Non Voters" to impact the nation and government.
*Here is a typical set-up many pundits use to turn a man's words against their actual meaning, watch the actual press conference for what Ron Paul was actually talking about, unless you believe that the next sentence starting,"So, in other words,..." represents Dr. Paul's true meaning.*
So, in other words, Paul stated that people should not vote for Obama or McCain and should vote for a third party nominee…unless they really don't want to.
*obviously not Ron Paul's meaning, today was not about reinstilling apathy to Ron Paul voters*
Allow me to set the good Doctor straight: "principled non voters" count the same, and have the same impact on America, as lazy, apathetic citizens who simply do not care enough to get involved and vote. There is no difference between the wannabe political philosopher who refuses to cast a vote "out of principle" and the lazy citizen who chooses to remain ignorant of the issues, the candidates and his or her government.
*Allow me to set the Barr campaign straight: The two types of voters you just described are the key to bringing third party candidates to the forefront. Maybe it is your campaign strategy to insult and accuse them instead of trying to win them over, but the good doctor's methods of educating and inspiring them have been working well thus far, even in the face of severe opposition.*
Keep in mind that some of Paul's followers have placed his name on the Presidential ballot in two states (Louisiana and Montana). Paul could have kept his name off the ballot in those states by simply requesting that he not be listed as a candidate in the general election, but in an effort in ego, he chose to allow his name to go on the ballot in direct competition with the other candidates he claims to encourage people to consider voting for.
*Ron Paul an egomaniac? This "ego" argument only works if you truly believe that Ron Paul is going to cost someone like Bob Barr a national victory because of these 2 state's swing votes, otherwise he isn't hurting the cause of liberty. It seems CFL's plan after this press conference is to lump Paul, Baldwin, Nader,and McKinney's votes together and use those percentages to show voter strength. Would have been nice to have Barr's votes count to, but since he didn't show today I'm not sure if they can or will use his numbers as well.*
Ron Paul has, again, blown a tremendous opportunity to lead and advance the agenda of the Constitution, and individual liberty. Since he launched his Presidential Exploratory Committee almost two years ago, Ron Paul has repeatedly said this campaign is not about the man (him) but about the message (liberty and the Constitution).
*The message was being spread today on stage in front of cameras, and Ron Paul wasn't the one that didn't show up.*
Really, Dr. Paul? Your actions belie your words.
*I can't wait to comment on the next few lines-Attacking Ron Paul's passion for liberty and the Constitution.*
If he were truly serious about this being "about the message" and not the man, he would be making sure that the message is resonating far and wide through and during the Presidential campaign.
*That seems to me what today's press conference was all about, I've been a third-party voter my whole voting life and I've never seen anything like today. Already this election season no less than 3 independent voter groups I joined at beginning of primaries have risen and fallen, yet Ron Paul's revolution continues to snowball into something bigger than a presidential race.*
The Libertarian Party begged him to accept its nomination and continue his campaign through Election Day. He declined.
Ron Paul has been open about his desire to take back the Republican party, this doesn't mean he isn't fighting for liberty. Bob Barr, who just switched parties(and positions), should understand the political strategy of choosing your battleground. I am not a republican, but I understand Ron Paul's situation and his feeling that he is in a position to influence a major party while still supporting smaller ones. Of course, all this goes against your point that Ron Paul is NOT about the message, but some personal agenda. If you think Dr. Paul is staying in the GOP because they treat him so well you must not see how they are treating him
The Libertarian Party then nominated the only credible pro-freedom candidate in the Presidential race, former Congressman Bob Barr, but Paul refused to support him, saying he is working for freedom within the Republican Party.
Ron Paul HAS been supporting Bob Barr on every interview I've seen over the past few weeks. Because he does not endorse one candidate above the others is a testimony to how much he cares about the message and not the men or women delivering it. Not to mention that Ron Paul offered Bob Barr a quality opportunity to reach out to American voters today, and Mr. Barr virtually slapped him in the face for it. And then his campaign sends out this letter bashing Ron Paul? It seems that Ron Paul has hurt Bob Barr's feelings and the rest is just spin.
Backing Barr would have taken courage on Paul's part. Instead, today he took a cop-out course of action by encouraging a nondescript "vote third party" message that would water down the impact of the freedom vote. If Americans are serious about sending a message that demands the restoration of our civil liberties, an end to the war in Iraq, a foreign policy that makes sense and solid, realistic economic policies then there is only one option to vote for on November 4th – Bob Barr.
Ron Paul doesn't need to prove his courage to you, his record is more courageous than any other I've come across. If you disagreed with the purpose of this gathering, YOU could have shown courage by saying that you wouldn't attend in the first place and not trying to ruin it for the rest of us.
Ron Paul knows that. Instead, he encouraged watering down the vote while maximizing his marketing base for the Campaign for Liberty, his book sales, etc.
*If Ron Paul were in it for book sales his speeches and interviews would sound a whole lot different than they do now. Of course Campaign For Liberty is a priority, it is the next step after the election and shoring up a base now while politics is heavy on the collective minds of America is not a bad idea. Using Ron Paul's success to justify Bob Barr's bad move is not gonna get you excused from your abscense today.
After Rep. Paul collected millions in donations from Libertarians, independents and Republicans during his campaign, he has since:
1) Sold his followers a book
*Which he could've sold for twice as much, and is something we were begging him for. Also I hate being called a "Ron Paul FOLLOWER" I think supporter sounds much better*
2) Had people travel to (or donate to) a march on Washington D.C. that ultimately proved to be too small to even get noticed, much less have any sort of impact
*Because the media doesn't cover it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Many people I know that went to that March deemed it a success, while Ron Paul hasn't had one large rally like some wanted, he has a steady track record of getting thousands of supporters to gather when he asks, I'll bet Bob Barr would love that kind of support, he won't earn it with stunts like he pulled today.*
3) Launched the "Campaign for Liberty" and hit up his followers, again, for donations to this organization that has made no noticeable effort to support liberty-minded candidates
*There was actually a pretty big event today that you missed*
4) Sold thousands of tickets to the "Rally for the Republic" in Minnesota, where he then sold t-shirts, more books, vendor booth space, advertising in the programs and a host of other things.
*The fact that "Rally for the Republic" paid for itself and didn't use taxpayer money isn't something to use against Ron Paul, in my opinion. I would say that was a plus for Ron Paul and Campaign For Liberty.*
Ron Paul is now in the Ron Paul business – and business is lucrative.
*This statement is the worst Ron Paul attack since the "rascist letters" scandal*
As painful as it is to state the obvious: this campaign by the man is no longer about the message, it is about the money – lots of it. Other than in his pocket and in the pocket of his paid staff, where is all the money going?
*To spread the message, and in case you haven't noticed-it's working*
No one seems to know for sure.
*If you mean I can't tell you where every cent is spent, you are right. However, if you look at this countries political landscape you will see things you never saw before, like 2 separate third party candidates polling at or above 5% in the same states, 12,000 people attending a political convention not funded by Republicans or Democrats, 10,000 people marching in DC. I don't think these things point to mismanagement of funds, they are successful events promoting liberty and Constitutional principles and Ron Paul has been the catalyst.*
In a time of economic recession, Paul has found a way to keep going back to the financial well of his followers, creating yet another challenge for candidates who are still running for office at all levels and are unable to raise the funds needed to effectively spread the message of liberty and the Constitution.
*It is safe to say Ron Paul has done much more to help than hurt liberty minded candidates at all levels. I know I've donated money to local and state candidates I won't even have a chance to vote for
I was among the first to donate to Dr. Paul's Exploratory committee and I also donated to his Presidential campaign. Once he dropped out of the race, though, I did the responsible thing and got behind the only remaining credible candidate, Bob Barr, who is capable of injecting the message Ron Paul claims to want to spread through Election Day and beyond.
*Good for you, that is just the kind of activism Ron Paul supports and supported today at a press conference in Washington, unfortunately you did yourself a disservice by biting the hand that fed you philosophically. Do you think you pushed the message of liberty forward today by shunning Ron Paul*
America still needs to hear that message and only Bob Barr is capable of taking the message further down the field. Unfortunately, it is obvious that Ron Paul is more interested in making money off the message than helping spread it through someone else. Maybe he is worried that Bob Barr will publish a book and compete for customers.
*When you say, "...only Bob Barr is capable of taking the message..." YOU are making it about the man not the message.
Thousands of Americans rushed to join Ron Paul's campaign, myself included. For us, it has always been about the message. We were thrilled to have someone serve as spokesman for the cause of liberty and back a candidate who could leverage his position as a major-party candidate to spread our message to millions through the campaign.
That is why we donated millions of dollars collectively.
Since ending his Presidential campaign, though, Ron Paul has gone from being the hope for America to being a major obstacle to the message of freedom and the Constitution.
*Major obstacle? The conference I watched today didn't focus on putting up obstacles for freedom-minded candidates, quite the opposite. Only obstacle in fight for freedom today is the division Bob Barr just created*
By contrast, Bob Barr showed that he is not just talking about and rallying for the message of freedom, he is doing something about the need to put liberty and Constitutional issues front and center in the Presidential campaign.
*How did he show this? By sitting in his office doing nothing while others were doing everything they could to show unity for the message.*
The Barr campaign continues to pick up steam in the national media and in the polls. People are listening and we cannot miss this opportunity to maximize our reach. The message is still getting out – because of Bob Barr.
*Until earlier this morning that statement was very true. Not sure so much anymore though, I think Barr campaign shot themselves in the foot today*
Dr. Paul, where is the leadership from you? We certainly did not see any today in Washington, D.C.
*You only didn't see it because the MSM didn't televise it, go to youtube and do a quick search you'll see what you missed.*
Do Paul's loyal followers, I ask one simple question: Are you serious about continuing to spread the message of Liberty for America?
If so, prove it. Go to www.bobbarr2008.com and sign up for our email updates. Then, look for a MeetUp group in your area – if there isn't one already, start one. Also, make a donation to the campaign. In any event, get involved in the Barr campaign because this campaign is actually about the message.
I'm VERY serious about spreading the message, and up until this morning I was going to vote Bob Barr, without a doubt. Now, however, I will give my vote to another liberty-minded candidate who's actions demand my respect. And I will encourage others to do the same.
*actually Ron Paul put together an outline of how to convince the average American to vote third-party. His 4-point outline of what the top third party candidates agree on can be a useful tool when waking up average apathetic voters and non-voters as to how similar top 2 parties are and how other options offered can be productive. Also, if Barr had attended, Ron Paul and his organization could have looked back at the 2008 election after it is over and lump all involved candidates votes to present the argument over future elections that there ARE enough voters who won't vote Dem/Rep to actually make a difference.*
He invited Libertarian Party Presidential nominee Bob Barr and independent Presidential candidate Ralph Nader along with the nominees of two small, minor political parties to stand behind him as he encouraged Americans to vote for anyone other than Sens. Barak Obama and John McCain.
*I would say that Ron Paul spent most of his time discussing party system, issues, debate and ballot access. It was much more than him getting up there and saying,"Don't vote for who they tell you to vote for. And the fact that those 2 minor candidates could, in theory, win enough electoral votes to become president makes that "nominees of two small, minor political parties" comment show that Barr's campaign did not grasp the focus of this event. This wasn't a press conference about winning this years election, it was about getting our voices heard on key issues, which no third party candidate since Ross Perot has been able to do. All Bob Barr's avoidance of the press conference did was do harm to that possibility."
Ron Paul wasted the press corps' time with this press conference. It accomplished nothing and displayed a complete lack of leadership on Paul's part.
*I would say that getting 3 of the 6 people that are not mathematically eliminated from the presidential nomination in the same room to show that there is still an option for those Americans that believe in cicil liberties, government accountability, and have them willingly share stage and mic time without attacking each other is an accomplishment that takes more leadership than you realize. If there is a lack of leadership shown it was only due to the fact that one of the guys who said he'd be there bailed at the last minute.**
Of the four invitees, only Bob Barr had the sense to skip the event. He held his own press conference, also in Washington, D.C., later in the day.
*And time will tell which press conference has more impact on the election, I doubt history will remember Bob Barr and Ron Paul with the same esteem, regard, and respect.*
Among the things in Ron Paul's statement was a reference to the "principled non-voter", claiming they are sending a message and should start a "League of Non Voters" to impact the nation and government.
*Here is a typical set-up many pundits use to turn a man's words against their actual meaning, watch the actual press conference for what Ron Paul was actually talking about, unless you believe that the next sentence starting,"So, in other words,..." represents Dr. Paul's true meaning.*
So, in other words, Paul stated that people should not vote for Obama or McCain and should vote for a third party nominee…unless they really don't want to.
*obviously not Ron Paul's meaning, today was not about reinstilling apathy to Ron Paul voters*
Allow me to set the good Doctor straight: "principled non voters" count the same, and have the same impact on America, as lazy, apathetic citizens who simply do not care enough to get involved and vote. There is no difference between the wannabe political philosopher who refuses to cast a vote "out of principle" and the lazy citizen who chooses to remain ignorant of the issues, the candidates and his or her government.
*Allow me to set the Barr campaign straight: The two types of voters you just described are the key to bringing third party candidates to the forefront. Maybe it is your campaign strategy to insult and accuse them instead of trying to win them over, but the good doctor's methods of educating and inspiring them have been working well thus far, even in the face of severe opposition.*
Keep in mind that some of Paul's followers have placed his name on the Presidential ballot in two states (Louisiana and Montana). Paul could have kept his name off the ballot in those states by simply requesting that he not be listed as a candidate in the general election, but in an effort in ego, he chose to allow his name to go on the ballot in direct competition with the other candidates he claims to encourage people to consider voting for.
*Ron Paul an egomaniac? This "ego" argument only works if you truly believe that Ron Paul is going to cost someone like Bob Barr a national victory because of these 2 state's swing votes, otherwise he isn't hurting the cause of liberty. It seems CFL's plan after this press conference is to lump Paul, Baldwin, Nader,and McKinney's votes together and use those percentages to show voter strength. Would have been nice to have Barr's votes count to, but since he didn't show today I'm not sure if they can or will use his numbers as well.*
Ron Paul has, again, blown a tremendous opportunity to lead and advance the agenda of the Constitution, and individual liberty. Since he launched his Presidential Exploratory Committee almost two years ago, Ron Paul has repeatedly said this campaign is not about the man (him) but about the message (liberty and the Constitution).
*The message was being spread today on stage in front of cameras, and Ron Paul wasn't the one that didn't show up.*
Really, Dr. Paul? Your actions belie your words.
*I can't wait to comment on the next few lines-Attacking Ron Paul's passion for liberty and the Constitution.*
If he were truly serious about this being "about the message" and not the man, he would be making sure that the message is resonating far and wide through and during the Presidential campaign.
*That seems to me what today's press conference was all about, I've been a third-party voter my whole voting life and I've never seen anything like today. Already this election season no less than 3 independent voter groups I joined at beginning of primaries have risen and fallen, yet Ron Paul's revolution continues to snowball into something bigger than a presidential race.*
The Libertarian Party begged him to accept its nomination and continue his campaign through Election Day. He declined.
Ron Paul has been open about his desire to take back the Republican party, this doesn't mean he isn't fighting for liberty. Bob Barr, who just switched parties(and positions), should understand the political strategy of choosing your battleground. I am not a republican, but I understand Ron Paul's situation and his feeling that he is in a position to influence a major party while still supporting smaller ones. Of course, all this goes against your point that Ron Paul is NOT about the message, but some personal agenda. If you think Dr. Paul is staying in the GOP because they treat him so well you must not see how they are treating him
The Libertarian Party then nominated the only credible pro-freedom candidate in the Presidential race, former Congressman Bob Barr, but Paul refused to support him, saying he is working for freedom within the Republican Party.
Ron Paul HAS been supporting Bob Barr on every interview I've seen over the past few weeks. Because he does not endorse one candidate above the others is a testimony to how much he cares about the message and not the men or women delivering it. Not to mention that Ron Paul offered Bob Barr a quality opportunity to reach out to American voters today, and Mr. Barr virtually slapped him in the face for it. And then his campaign sends out this letter bashing Ron Paul? It seems that Ron Paul has hurt Bob Barr's feelings and the rest is just spin.
Backing Barr would have taken courage on Paul's part. Instead, today he took a cop-out course of action by encouraging a nondescript "vote third party" message that would water down the impact of the freedom vote. If Americans are serious about sending a message that demands the restoration of our civil liberties, an end to the war in Iraq, a foreign policy that makes sense and solid, realistic economic policies then there is only one option to vote for on November 4th – Bob Barr.
Ron Paul doesn't need to prove his courage to you, his record is more courageous than any other I've come across. If you disagreed with the purpose of this gathering, YOU could have shown courage by saying that you wouldn't attend in the first place and not trying to ruin it for the rest of us.
Ron Paul knows that. Instead, he encouraged watering down the vote while maximizing his marketing base for the Campaign for Liberty, his book sales, etc.
*If Ron Paul were in it for book sales his speeches and interviews would sound a whole lot different than they do now. Of course Campaign For Liberty is a priority, it is the next step after the election and shoring up a base now while politics is heavy on the collective minds of America is not a bad idea. Using Ron Paul's success to justify Bob Barr's bad move is not gonna get you excused from your abscense today.
After Rep. Paul collected millions in donations from Libertarians, independents and Republicans during his campaign, he has since:
1) Sold his followers a book
*Which he could've sold for twice as much, and is something we were begging him for. Also I hate being called a "Ron Paul FOLLOWER" I think supporter sounds much better*
2) Had people travel to (or donate to) a march on Washington D.C. that ultimately proved to be too small to even get noticed, much less have any sort of impact
*Because the media doesn't cover it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Many people I know that went to that March deemed it a success, while Ron Paul hasn't had one large rally like some wanted, he has a steady track record of getting thousands of supporters to gather when he asks, I'll bet Bob Barr would love that kind of support, he won't earn it with stunts like he pulled today.*
3) Launched the "Campaign for Liberty" and hit up his followers, again, for donations to this organization that has made no noticeable effort to support liberty-minded candidates
*There was actually a pretty big event today that you missed*
4) Sold thousands of tickets to the "Rally for the Republic" in Minnesota, where he then sold t-shirts, more books, vendor booth space, advertising in the programs and a host of other things.
*The fact that "Rally for the Republic" paid for itself and didn't use taxpayer money isn't something to use against Ron Paul, in my opinion. I would say that was a plus for Ron Paul and Campaign For Liberty.*
Ron Paul is now in the Ron Paul business – and business is lucrative.
*This statement is the worst Ron Paul attack since the "rascist letters" scandal*
As painful as it is to state the obvious: this campaign by the man is no longer about the message, it is about the money – lots of it. Other than in his pocket and in the pocket of his paid staff, where is all the money going?
*To spread the message, and in case you haven't noticed-it's working*
No one seems to know for sure.
*If you mean I can't tell you where every cent is spent, you are right. However, if you look at this countries political landscape you will see things you never saw before, like 2 separate third party candidates polling at or above 5% in the same states, 12,000 people attending a political convention not funded by Republicans or Democrats, 10,000 people marching in DC. I don't think these things point to mismanagement of funds, they are successful events promoting liberty and Constitutional principles and Ron Paul has been the catalyst.*
In a time of economic recession, Paul has found a way to keep going back to the financial well of his followers, creating yet another challenge for candidates who are still running for office at all levels and are unable to raise the funds needed to effectively spread the message of liberty and the Constitution.
*It is safe to say Ron Paul has done much more to help than hurt liberty minded candidates at all levels. I know I've donated money to local and state candidates I won't even have a chance to vote for
I was among the first to donate to Dr. Paul's Exploratory committee and I also donated to his Presidential campaign. Once he dropped out of the race, though, I did the responsible thing and got behind the only remaining credible candidate, Bob Barr, who is capable of injecting the message Ron Paul claims to want to spread through Election Day and beyond.
*Good for you, that is just the kind of activism Ron Paul supports and supported today at a press conference in Washington, unfortunately you did yourself a disservice by biting the hand that fed you philosophically. Do you think you pushed the message of liberty forward today by shunning Ron Paul*
America still needs to hear that message and only Bob Barr is capable of taking the message further down the field. Unfortunately, it is obvious that Ron Paul is more interested in making money off the message than helping spread it through someone else. Maybe he is worried that Bob Barr will publish a book and compete for customers.
*When you say, "...only Bob Barr is capable of taking the message..." YOU are making it about the man not the message.
Thousands of Americans rushed to join Ron Paul's campaign, myself included. For us, it has always been about the message. We were thrilled to have someone serve as spokesman for the cause of liberty and back a candidate who could leverage his position as a major-party candidate to spread our message to millions through the campaign.
That is why we donated millions of dollars collectively.
Since ending his Presidential campaign, though, Ron Paul has gone from being the hope for America to being a major obstacle to the message of freedom and the Constitution.
*Major obstacle? The conference I watched today didn't focus on putting up obstacles for freedom-minded candidates, quite the opposite. Only obstacle in fight for freedom today is the division Bob Barr just created*
By contrast, Bob Barr showed that he is not just talking about and rallying for the message of freedom, he is doing something about the need to put liberty and Constitutional issues front and center in the Presidential campaign.
*How did he show this? By sitting in his office doing nothing while others were doing everything they could to show unity for the message.*
The Barr campaign continues to pick up steam in the national media and in the polls. People are listening and we cannot miss this opportunity to maximize our reach. The message is still getting out – because of Bob Barr.
*Until earlier this morning that statement was very true. Not sure so much anymore though, I think Barr campaign shot themselves in the foot today*
Dr. Paul, where is the leadership from you? We certainly did not see any today in Washington, D.C.
*You only didn't see it because the MSM didn't televise it, go to youtube and do a quick search you'll see what you missed.*
Do Paul's loyal followers, I ask one simple question: Are you serious about continuing to spread the message of Liberty for America?
If so, prove it. Go to www.bobbarr2008.com and sign up for our email updates. Then, look for a MeetUp group in your area – if there isn't one already, start one. Also, make a donation to the campaign. In any event, get involved in the Barr campaign because this campaign is actually about the message.
I'm VERY serious about spreading the message, and up until this morning I was going to vote Bob Barr, without a doubt. Now, however, I will give my vote to another liberty-minded candidate who's actions demand my respect. And I will encourage others to do the same.