WHY Massachusetts voted for McCain

[Sematary]

I've done much soul searching since Wednesday night, and here's what I decided.

Throughout the days leading up to that critical vote, Ron Paul repeatedly asked us not to disrupt the Convention, but rather to act as ambassadors, to reach out and build bridges to the other Republicans, to make friendships, to engage in constructive dialog, to invite them into the Campaign for Liberty, and to take steps toward changing the party from within. That's what we did.

John McCain's nomination was already guaranteed. There was nothing we could do, barring unethical initiation of force, to change that fact. So we made a deal. We gave them their unanimous vote, which allowed them to look good to their peers, and we got concessions including strong encouragement from the party leaders for the pre-existing Republicans to accept us and work together, plus guaranteed seats on the Republican State Committee. In my estimation that deal moved us two years ahead in our efforts to "take over the party" and change it from within.

Sure, we have many areas of disagreement with the others, but come to think of it, we disagree amongst ourselves. If you put five libertarians into a room, you will have six opinions. We can still work together, and since we have the right message, we will gradually change their minds as we go.

There will always be some who say that voting for McCain under any circumstances was unconscionable, and I see their point. However, I personally feel that those votes "belonged" to Ron Paul, and I believe he would be proud of the way we used them.

John Cunningham
Ron Paul Republican
candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives
from the Massachusetts 7th Congressional District
www.johncunningham2008.com
campaign@johncunningham2008.com


From some of the other delegates:


I'd like to add my thoughts as an alternate.

First, the Mass GOP came to the Ron Paul delegates (That's a huge move in any negotiations), and the choice was abstain (and potentially embarass them and ruin any good will), or turn over over credentials to others than could vote for McCain so he could get the unanymous, without many of us violating our principles.

Note - THEY came to US. As we learned at Campaign For Liberty training school, they will not respect you, until the fear you. We now have their respect.

During the negotiations, I kept thinking, what would Ron do?
1) Ron Paul has made it clear that he will NOT vote for McCain
2) On a conference call, Dr. Paul made it clear that Drew Ivers (Iowa delegate) would help/lead his Ron Paul supporters (check DailyPaul to see how Drew Ivers voted [He gave up his credentials and let Iowa be unanimous - but I doubt he received anything concrete in return)
3) Dr. Paul also made it clear that we are supposed to work WITH the GOP to take it over. Many of the existing, older Republicans believe in the Return to the Grassroots (except for the divisive war). let's work on them, and convince them about that in the future.

I think we got media coverage on the Herald about Dr. Paul (maybe we're reasonable people, and not crazy wackos). There will be MORE media coverage too, to get Dr. Paul's message of liberty out too.
Watching Peter Torklidsen, give a very, very nice speech about inviting the Ron Paul supporters to the GOP and positions of power in the state committee. He even mentioned the word CONSTITUTION.
Oh - and finally, there was media there, I'm sure there will be youtube clips eventually, AND two prominent governors (VT and RI), were in that room to also recognize and perhaps fear/respect Dr. Paul's followers in their states.

I believe the delegates made a very good decision, considering the high time pressure, the intense intimidation by security, the ability to extract maximum value from a lost position to be able to win the next battle.
Considering the microphones mysteriously shut off after McCain's count is announced, I think we would have been ignored, and the abstentions 'worthless' for public opinion, but good for those already paying attention.

Elections are short term projects, Revolutions are long term. We need more soldiers, and this will help spread the message and recruit/educate/train to take over the GOP.







It's very simple. We decided the long term goals were more important than abstaining because abstaining would have accomplished nothing. Contrary to what some might think, some of these republicans are good people, and are willing to work with us, as long as we show that we are not there to destroy their party but to be a part of it.

Someone mentioned before that we don't need them; that we can get enough people to vote for us for any position. Well, let me tell you this. When I ran for delegate we had about four or five Ron Paul supporters show up. I won because I convinced the regular republicans to vote for me. Our decision on Wednesday has already had a good impact on those republicans that I have come to know. We do need those people, and I believe most of them will no longer see us as outsiders as a result of our compromise. Let's face it. We didn't really give up that much. Also, showing that we are willing to work with them is a better strategy for getting them to listen to us and the ideas of liberty.

G. Edward Griffin's Freedom Force International society is about encouraging its members not only to get involved but to use the same techniques used by our enemies. That's how they got there, and that's the only way we will get there.

When I ran for delegate I purposely left out information about myself to get elected; I wanted to speak about the Fed and many other issues but I didn't want them to know who I supported. You could say this is a bit unethical, but we all know that is what we had to do to get elected. It was a strategy. This is no different. We have a goal and this goal is much bigger than just showing the party that we don't accept McCain. There is a bigger picture here. McCain was going to be the nominee regardless of our decision. We could have continued to be outsiders, or really become part of the party and start changing it from the inside. We can't call it "infiltration" because we are not doing it secretly. They already know who we are, so the best thing we can do is show them that we are not the threat they thought we were.

This is a strategy and it will work. For anyone not convinced, go to freedom-force.org and become a member. I could not be prouder of our decision. It shows we are thinking about the future.

I also want to say that I feel lucky to have met all of you. I share with you the ideas that have become a big part of who I now am. I hope we can get together every now and then.







Cambridge Chris wrote:

Welcome back home. It's been a rough week for us all. Emotions are
high and energy is low.

First off, that snooze-fest in the Xcel Center would have been
suicidal were I not surrounded by you all. I have memories for a
lifetime, and I have the trust and friendship of a great group of
patriots. I hope we can get together regularly and have some more
great times.

We have been working hard for a long time to make Ron Paul the GOP
nominee! From the Tea Party to neighborhood canvassing to caucus
elections to defending our legitimacy to scraping together travel $$
to enduring the GOP ridicule to soliciting delegation signatures for
Motion for Nomination: WE STEPPED UP. I am very proud of you all, and
with dignity and decorum, we did everything within the rules and
within our power to make Ron Paul our nominee.

[hard@work]

Anyone able to comment on how Dr. Ron Paul would see this?

[syborius]

I see it as the will of the people was subverted, again. They had a duty to represent their constituents by voting the way they wanted them to vote. The whole point of voting is to vote your conscience, and it is even more important to vote the way the people in your district demanded it. This is a good way of excusing their duty to the constituents.

The GOP will never change when it doesn't feel threatened, if PAUL was shown to have 200 delegates up on the big screen for all to see, for the pundits to ponder, for the country to discuss, that to me is real change. What we saw was a party self congratulating itself throughout for the job well done. HORSESHIT. The battle is one of perception, and that battle was lost because as a collective we managed a murmur with a handful of votes, we managed a murmur because these delegates made the wrong decision, playing politics with the one chance Ron Paul's views on liberty had to shine through the pitch dark that is the GOP has become. There is strength in numbers, and by caving the RP people showed weakness.

The problem with American politics is just that nobody votes on principle anymore. These people should be ashamed of themselves.

[newyearsrevolution08]

I agree, people actually think that these delegates are doing their duty to take OUR VOTES and make sure that voice is heard at the convention. Caving to "build bridges" to help play the game does NOT sound like they did their job at all.

You can make buddies before and after the convention and simply let them know that it is not "your" vote you are casting but the THOUSANDS who entrusted their votes with your ONE..

I think it is sad how many caved BUT I hope we can take this loss and learn from it and really build A SOUND strategy and maybe even hire the campaign manager that ran the mccain campaign for our next election cycle so we can actually win something.

[Spirit of '76]

Just so everyone knows, this was not a unanimous decision in the Mass delegation. I seriously thought Cambridge Chris was going to get his ass whooped by some of the other delegates that night.

[muh_roads]

What a bunch of horse crap. Makes me not want to work as hard as I did in the future.

[newyearsrevolution08]

Just so everyone knows, this was not a unanimous decision in the Mass delegation. I seriously thought Cambridge Chris was going to get his ass whooped by some of the other delegates that night.

an ass whooping is the least of our worries at the moment.

I would take an ass beating or two to get my vote actually counted, I have gotten my ass kicked for far less.

[JAlli41]

Okay, I live in Massachusetts and worked for Dr. Paul in NH during the primaries, I talked some of my family, Massachusetts residents into voting for Dr. Paul in the primaries. So as a Massachusetts Republican let me say this for those of you who are not from Mass. The current GOP status quo is not working in this state and the party knows it. Their plan has always seemed to be to try to get more progressive, thinking they could get some liberals to vote for them. I do not know many people who liked Gov. Romney, but I do know that Gov. Weld in the early 90's was the last well liked Republican in Mass. After him we seem to have had a slew of dissasters in state Republican leadership which has led to only having 6 Republicans in the General Court. So when the delegates made this deal, I believe not only did they get some concessions, but I bet the MassGOP will be more than willing to go along with this stuff if they think it will help their base grow. The GOP progressives are out of ideas (which pretty much goes along with the national party) and what they have been pushing up here to get votes on the local level has been real tough law and order Republicanism. I have to think some of the old fogeys of the party would be more than happy to see both an influx of youth and traditional republicanism at the same time. I don't know what our delegates got in return for the McCain votes, but in this state a show of good faith could lead to some good cadidates and everyone here know the ideas are good and education could lead to some unexpected victories with liberal progressives if we play our cards right. I don't know where everyone else who is commenting is from, but if you aren't from Massachussetts or similarly liberal/progressive states, its tough to take your comments seriously. In politics there absolutely have to be backroom deals and while some things we cannot give in on, we also cannot act like petulent children if we hope to further our causes.

[me3]

There is only one question.

Does Dr. Paul give up his votes for more status or power within the party?

I say John Cunningham is a goof if he thinks Dr. Paul would have been proud of compromising principles for more political power.

The goal is not to take over or operate within the GOP.

Has no one been listening?

[me3]

In politics there absolutely have to be backroom deals and while some things we cannot give in on, we also cannot act like petulent children if we hope to further our causes.
I'd buy that, but it's not how Dr. Paul rolls. He needs people who have character and integrity with him in Congress, not guys like Cunningham who might roll over and vote with the party because it will help him keep his seat, or get him on a committee.

The Mass delegation didn't make the right call in my opinion. Maybe they got cold feet, maybe they lacked leadership. But there is no point in making excuses for surrender. This was not the desired outcome when people worked so hard to send them to the convention.

They were supposed to resist McCain's policies, not get bought off on them.

[JAlli41]

Didn't Dr. Paul make a deal in W. Virginia? There is a difference between giving in on major issues and giving in on personal dealings. If you went into a contract neotiation telling the other person, "this is the price and that its, no stop talking this is it, no stop, I'll abstain from these contract talks if you don't do what I want," the guy sitting across from you is going to think you're an asshole and will not want to do further business with you. No one in this movement should ever bend on things like the federal reserve system, foreign policy, the war on drugs, or any number of other issues, but I just do not understand the outrage here.

[speciallyblend]

makes me want to remove myself from the republican party, seems it's all talk and no action, im disgusted with this whole campaign.. I will do my best to make sure the gop crashes and burns, this makes me want to puke!!!!

[constituent]

water under the bridge.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Never compromise

you let me down.

[Anti Federalist]

Pwnd.

Forget about lube, they didn't even kiss you first.

The GOP is dead to me.

"Reformers" can kiss my ass in the town square.

[RP4EVER]

we have got to find smarter people to run for office and smarter people to lead this fight

These people; not only the Mass delegates but the rest...sold out to a party that needs them.........we dont need the party....the party needs us 3/4 of our support is under the age of 30........3/4 of their support is over 60......think about that folks

[slacker921]

It sucks, but another way to look at it - when McCain goes down hard in November they can't claim it was because the Paul supporters divided the party. They showed the nation that there was "UNITY" and the GOP will have to take full responsibility for the losses in Nov. The insiders will remember that there was a group that was passionate about ideas that the GOP were against.... so when the GOP fails then they just might give the Paul supporters a chance. (if they're smart).

I would much rather have seen 200+ votes for Paul but we can learn and move on.

Here's where things went wrong imho.. the world didn't know how many Paul delegates were there. As far as everyone knew there were maybe 40 Paul supporters at the RNC so it was easy for the GOP to whitewash this. If the Paul campaign (before it closed up shop..) had made more noise about the number of delegates who were Paul supporters then the world would have known that there was division going into this thing and expected ~200 votes for Paul. The GOP still would have tried for unity, but they would have had to work harder and greater concessions would have been made.

[Conza88]

To be frank. They sold out. What they said to the party is; "I can be bought". Every justification of those who crumbled under the pressure, is an attempt to con themselves into thinking they did what was right. Well, they're wrong. Wishful thinking. I expected better.


The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but a swindling futurity on a large scale. – Thomas Jefferson

It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. – Alfred Adler

We must remember that the principal instrument of government is coercion and that our government officials are no more moral, omnipotent, nor omniscient than are any of the rest of us. Once we understand the basic principles which must be observed if freedom is to be safeguarded against government, we may become more hesitant in turning our personal problems and responsibilities over to that agency of coercion, with its insatiable appetite for power. – W. C. Mullendore

My proposition. Next time; each Ron Paul delegate have temporarily tattooed on their person, the following:

“When principles that run against your deepest convictions begin to win the day, then battle is your calling, and peace has become sin; you must, at the price of dearest peace, lay your convictions bare before friend and enemy, with all the fire of your faith.”
~ Abraham Kuype

“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.”
Thomas Paine

“That is the principle thing - not to remain with the dream, with the intention, with the being-in-the-mood, but always forcibly to convert it into all things”~ Rainer Maria Rilke

“To see what is right, and not do it, is want of courage, or of principle.”~ Confucius

[muzzled dogg]

wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[pauletteNV]

Maybe this is exactly what happens with a vote in Congress, too. We the people, the voters, with good intentions, elect our representatives to vote our will for the good of our area/situation. They receive a little donation here, a little earmark there, a little martini lunch and suddenly they are voting their will for their own benefit, rather than what we elected them for. The root of misrepresentation. How much "giving" can one do before one misrepresents the people who "voted" for you? Politics - The Game.

[freelance]

Maybe this is exactly what happens with a vote in Congress, too. We the people, the voters, with good intentions, elect our representatives to vote our will for the good of our area/situation. They receive a little donation here, a little earmark there, a little martini lunch and suddenly they are voting their will for their own benefit, rather than what we elected them for. The root of misrepresentation. How much "giving" can one do before one misrepresents the people who "voted" for you? Politics - The Game.

Looks like they've been overpaying for Congressional influence. Perhaps a few tickets to the Jay Leno show... or some private reruns of Your Show of Shows?

[MelissaWV]

Didn't Dr. Paul make a deal in W. Virginia? There is a difference between giving in on major issues and giving in on personal dealings.

Briefly...

WV was the first state that was going to be announced on Super Tuesday. At the time, the "choice" was between Romney, Huckabee, and McCain (because Dr. Paul was eliminated after the first round of voting for having the least out of the four). This means Dr. Paul was *no longer an option at all* and the "deal" that was struck *got him three national delegates from the Huckabee camp* not that it made a big difference in the end. The motivation, timing, and options are totally different.

I won't say one way or another how I feel about MA, but that's what happened in WV. The two situations aren't really comparable. The WV delegates took a zero and turned it into a three. The MA delegates took a (whatever number) and turned into a (smaller number).

[TurtleBurger]

Every person who went to the RNC representing Ron Paul is a hero. No, they did not get Ron Paul the nomination, that was not a possibility. But they stood up for us in the belly of the beast, withstood every kind of abuse, and in the case of this Massachusetts delegation, actually managed to negotiate some positive concessions from the Massachusetts GOP for our movement. This is not a one-time shot for us, and kudos to Mr. Cunningham and the other folks from Massachusetts for thinking long-term. Anyone criticizing the work of our brave delegates should work harder to get themselves elected as national delegates next time, and show us how you would do it better.

[Sematary]

Every person who went to the RNC representing Ron Paul is a hero. No, they did not get Ron Paul the nomination, that was not a possibility. But they stood up for us in the belly of the beast, withstood every kind of abuse, and in the case of this Massachusetts delegation, actually managed to negotiate some positive concessions from the Massachusetts GOP for our movement. This is not a one-time shot for us, and kudos to Mr. Cunningham and the other folks from Massachusetts for thinking long-term. Anyone criticizing the work of our brave delegates should work harder to get themselves elected as national delegates next time, and show us how you would do it better.

+1

For my two cents, I understand the feelings being expressed here - and they need to be expressed. Everyone's viewpoint is valid. BUT... I also know the kind of people we sent to the RNC and I do believe THEY believe they did the best and right thing. I can't say for sure what I would have done if I were in that position, because I wasn't there. My instinct tells me that I would have told the GOP to go F*** itself but I don't know the exact nature of what was gained. My initial reaction tho - and still the one I think I hold, is given the choice of McCain - or abstain, I would have abstained. I could never put my vote behind McCain. Again, however, I don't know what the exact situation was or what concessions were won from the Ma. GOP.

[speciallyblend]

We will make change in our own movement soon , WE ARE THE MOVEMENT!!!!

[Rhys]

I think they're assholes and idiots, no matter what they say. I vote to kick MA out of the Union.

[PatriotOne]

Throughout the days leading up to that critical vote, Ron Paul repeatedly asked us not to disrupt the Convention, but rather to act as ambassadors, to reach out and build bridges to the other Republicans,

I truly do not understand this reasoning. RP has repeatedly stated he will not endorse McCain. Why on earth would they think he would want his delegates to endorse him? Acting as Ambassadors does not mean going along to get along. The only message they sent by doing this was that they can be another Republican lemming if enough pressure is applied.

I'm very disappointed.

[ShowMeLiberty]

I have very mixed emotions about this.

On one hand, it's easy for us to sit at our computers and criticize. Easy to say they should have stood firm no matter what. Easy now to say they betrayed their principles, betrayed us, betrayed Dr. Paul. And to a large extent, I agree with all that.

On the other hand, we were not there, under pressure, trying to come to the right decision in a short time. Reading their explanations, I can see that they were sincerely trying to do what they felt would help us best going forward. Republicans, generally, do not like radicals and rebels. Refusing to budge would have labeled the delegates as radicals and rebels and would have silenced them forever within the GOP.

Changing direction of the GOP actually is part of our overall goals, isn't it? We can't possibly do that if we only antagonize them at every opportunity. The NeoCons didn't take over by antagonizing the conservatives. No, they were stealthy about it until they got a majority of the party thinking their way. I have to agree that playing the same game is the only way to turn the GOP our way.

I guess that's what it comes down to for me. Is "calling the GOP back to its roots" one of our goals or not? If so, then I grudgingly accept what the MA delegates did as part of that process. If not, then they made a poor decision and let us all down.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

BURN THE TRAITORS!!!!! No, seriously.

[MsDoodahs]

Every person who went to the RNC representing Ron Paul is a hero. No, they did not get Ron Paul the nomination, that was not a possibility. But they stood up for us in the belly of the beast, withstood every kind of abuse, and in the case of this Massachusetts delegation, actually managed to negotiate some positive concessions from the Massachusetts GOP for our movement. This is not a one-time shot for us, and kudos to Mr. Cunningham and the other folks from Massachusetts for thinking long-term. Anyone criticizing the work of our brave delegates should work harder to get themselves elected as national delegates next time, and show us how you would do it better.



+1

For my two cents, I understand the feelings being expressed here - and they need to be expressed. Everyone's viewpoint is valid. BUT... I also know the kind of people we sent to the RNC and I do believe THEY believe they did the best and right thing. I can't say for sure what I would have done if I were in that position, because I wasn't there. My instinct tells me that I would have told the GOP to go F*** itself but I don't know the exact nature of what was gained. My initial reaction tho - and still the one I think I hold, is given the choice of McCain - or abstain, I would have abstained. I could never put my vote behind McCain. Again, however, I don't know what the exact situation was or what concessions were won from the Ma. GOP.

Sentiments I share.

[Bradley in DC]

All of us are disappointed that McCain got the Republican nomination. Lots of people are looking for scapegoats to blame. I've always urged us to be realists and not get sidetracked:

1) learn the rules (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=47114), play the game and beat them at it
2) find trusted local leaders in all states who know the local rules, peoples, games, etc.
3) build coalitions
4) don't put blind faith in the loyalty and/or competence (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1652304#poststop) of the official Paul presidential campaign staff

As I explained early, we needed to learn the "]RNC by-laws (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1653888&postcount=8


The purpose of our meeting in the courtyard was to plan to nominate RP for president, which the campaign had given up on for a long time. We understood the rules of the roll call vote, which stated that RP could not be nominated or placed on the ballot of choices for the roll call vote for all states without the support of the majority of five delegations. We identified the ten smallest delegations and assigned delegates from across the country to approach delegates from these delegations with petitions for placing RP on the ballot. This was understood to be a Hail Mary, but we were not going to give up. We went nuts on the floor on Tuesday trying to get these petitions signed.

The people from the WA delegation were actually able to get the support of the majority of the virgin islands delegation, but our luck stopped there.

We were not able to get RP placed on the ballot for all states. Some states were legally required to report the votes of RP supporters who were legally bound to RP, but most states were not. In Massachusetts, most of us were bound by state law to McCain. We were only given the option of McCain or abstain.

More on the MA delegation here:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/massvoices/2008/09/the_revolution_continues_unite.html

I tried to bring our side up on the rules (the real ones (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=47093), not some of the delusional rantings widely popularized). I tried to help the grassroots identify and win the five states needed to get Dr. Paul qualified to be nominated.

Good work on the RP supporters at the convention trying to follow the rules and get Dr. Paul nominated. How cool that the US Virgin Islands were willing to join us. Although the grassroots on RPFs did try to reach out to the territories (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=102701), it's a shame the official campaign ignored them.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1656265

I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

I'm not going to judge the decisions of different delegates on how they voted--I don't know enough of their situations. Dr. Paul's official campaign never had a strategy to get Dr. Paul eligible to be nominated in the first place and were never interested in learning the rules necessary--much less training the grassroots in them.

I was thrilled to see Dr. Paul get at least some votes--too bad they didn't count. If, on a state by state basis, we made inroads into the state parties (however we voted), the better. Our efforts working with the DC GOP yielded some benefit.

I wish the campaign had done more trying to get the five majority delegations for Dr. Paul to put his name on the ballot as a qualified nominee. That Lew Moore was urging Ron Paul delegates to vote McCain says a lot about the suspicions many have long held about him.

Was it a good decision or not? I don't know depending on the local situations. Some state parties are not receptive to us--others are. The DC Republican Committee has a very closed membership reflecting the establishment. To become a member one has to be nominated by a current member, approved by the select committee and voted on by the full DCRC. There was 1 of 70 who was on Dr. Paul's delegate candidate slate for a time, but 3 of the 7 new members (myself included) were on Dr. Paul's slate and added this year

Funny how Jeff Greenspan and Don Rasmussen who idolize Lew Moore lament "people like Bradley (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=151223)" for not working with the party while he demonizes Sue et al. who welcomed Dr. Paul. Is that another example of the Lew Moore style of furthering the movement? :eek:

[MsDoodahs]

Changing direction of the GOP actually is part of our overall goals, isn't it? We can't possibly do that if we only antagonize them at every opportunity. The NeoCons didn't take over by antagonizing the conservatives. No, they were stealthy about it until they got a majority of the party thinking their way. I have to agree that playing the same game is the only way to turn the GOP our way.

Exactly. The GOP did not become what it is today overnight. It has been a long term process, taking years - not one election.

My goal is to be stealthy and invade the GOP, and work to reverse what the neocons have done, the same way the neocons were stealthy and invaded the GOP years - AND YEARS - ago.

It is not a quickie one election deal. It's a multi-year process.



I guess that's what it comes down to for me. Is "calling the GOP back to its roots" one of our goals or not?

It is certainly a goal for some, and Dr. Paul is among that number.

That is not to say that other freedom fighters are in any way wrong in making a different choice.

[speciallyblend]

mccain wins and it is all mute, the gop corruption is disgusting scum ,the media is basically scum, so we need to focus on either making sure mccain loses or after election letting the gop die ,put the dying dog down ,but if mccain wins it is all mute





Exactly. The GOP did not become what it is today overnight. It has been a long term process, taking years - not one election.

My goal is to be stealthy and invade the GOP, and work to reverse what the neocons have done, the same way the neocons were stealthy and invaded the GOP years - AND YEARS - ago.

It is not a quickie one election deal. It's a multi-year process.



It is certainly a goal for some, and Dr. Paul is among that number.

That is not to say that other freedom fighters are in any way wrong in making a different choice.

[Feelgood]

Thanks Sematary for posting that. At least now we have some kind of confirmation, that they are indeed sell outs. That whole state is really beginning to make me sick. Murderers and Traitors to the country, as Senators. Delegates that are spineless. UGH makes me sick.

[RP4EVER]

Well said Speciallyblend; if McCain wins we'll have no movement in the republican party; nor anywhere for that matter; these deals will be for naught.

I see alot of posts saying "Well it wasnt easy"

People knew this before hand; thats why I didnt try to become a delegate. They got in over their heads point blank.

[speciallyblend]

Well said Speciallyblend; if McCain wins we'll have no movement in the republican party; nor anywhere for that matter; these deals will be for naught.

I see alot of posts saying "Well it wasnt easy"

People knew this before hand; thats why I didnt try to become a delegate. They got in over their heads point blank.

well i wouldn't say the movement is over,just over in the dying gop.... We will eventually have to demand the lp/cp get over their own egos and unite behind us ron paul republicans and form a new platform,until then we will all marginalize each other,sad but true...

WE MUST CONTINUE TO FIGHT, I SUGGEST FOLKS FOCUS ON YOUR STATE AND LOCAL,since all these campaigns must be run differently by state... do not focus on parties ,focus on the people running and what they are saying. there are plenty of ron paul supporters in all the parties, We need to hold up the liberty candidates and forget party lines!!!!!! i could be wrong but to me the gop is worthless, vote for anyone but mccain ,thats my only option left now!!!!

[MsDoodahs]

Funny how donald duck and mickey mouse who idolize Jim Cantore lament people like Goofy for not working with the party while he demonizes Betty Lou et al. who welcomed Smurfs. Is that another example of the Ninja turtle style of furthering the movement? :eek:

Don't take your focus off the big picture and allow yourself to become bogged down in the petty details of personal soap operas, as is attempted in the quote above.

Do not let those who want your focus to be on PERSONALITY sway you.

Know that some have a goal of planting seeds of doubt within your mind.

You either have the ability to recognize that, or you don't.

If you don't, you'll find yourself swayed ... you'll find yourself questioning everything you thought you knew.

Remember, this is not about PERSONALITIES. Stay focused.

It's hard. I KNOW. lol.

When you start to doubt, consider what their frantic efforts demonstrate.

Think about what that means. What that really means.

eta my edit makes me lol...

[MsDoodahs]

we'll have no movement in the republican party; nor anywhere for that matter;

This movement existed long before this election cycle and it will exist long after.

:)

[Rhys]

wow... I never thought so many RP supporters would WANT to take the middle ground to our demise.... to cave to the power against which we toss our lives and fortune... to give them all they want for almost nothing of our own in return. A negotiated demise of our principles and goals.

Reminds me of Congress... don't do anything to rock the boat or you might lose an election.... cave to all evil pressures just in case they decide to not be evil one day and help us.

The Liberals (especialy from MA) in this movement come at politics with a pussy view of how to achieve anything. This is why true believer liberals suck. They will cave in to anything so long as their super smart Utopian strategy seems to be progressed.

Well, the genius of the MA delegation just got us a big, fat ZERO on the point board and a big, fat ZERO on the influence board. They showed themselves to be whimps who will not and can not fight the power. We lost big that day because of MA. Now, we have to all but start over... after we sink MA into the bottom of the sea.

[MsDoodahs]

WE MUST CONTINUE TO FIGHT, I SUGGEST FOLKS FOCUS ON YOUR STATE AND LOCAL,since all these campaigns must be run differently by state...

:)

[speciallyblend]

This movement existed long before this election cycle and it will exist long after.

:)

i agree ,since i was an activist before i ever heard of ron paul;) though if mccain wins, i would have to question the sanity of actually thinking we can take the gop back, we must not let mccain win and reward the corruption of the gop..


we need to focus this grassroots on action to do whatever it takes to make sure mccain crash and burns!!!!

[MsDoodahs]

i agree ,since i was an activist before i ever heard of ron paul;) though if mccain wins, i would have to question the sanity of actually thinking we can take the gop back, we must not let mccain win and reward the corruption of the gop..


It is going to take time to infiltrate the GOP from the local level up.

It can be done, because our ideas are sound and ... hell, if a pack of vile neocons can con the GOP membership and lead them this far away from their conservative roots, I KNOW freedom advocates can persuade them back in the opposite direction.

I recall wishing Ron could debate any of the neocon candidates one on one...why?

We all KNEW how bad Ron would kick butt.

Well, time for us to kick butt - locally - based on our ability to persuade those around us to the soundness of the ideas.

[Ninja Homer]

To the Ron Paul delegates who sold their votes for inroads to the Republican party:

It isn't my place to judge you. I wasn't in your shoes, and I don't know what it was like. I'm sure it was a hard decision, and I'm glad it wasn't mine to make.

I'm sure there must have been a lot running through your mind, weighing on your conscience, for example:
How many millions of dollars of campaign funds did it take to get you there?
How many hundreds of thousands of volunteer hours did it take to get you there?
How many thousands of Ron Paul supporters does your vote represent?
If McCain wins, and continues to "follow the course" and invade countries, how many lives of US soldiers does your vote represent? How many innocent lives in other countries?
If McCain wins, how many years will your children or grandchildren be debt slaves as a result of McCain's spending?

Like I said, it's not my place to judge... Those are just some of the things that would have weighed on my decision and my conscience.

I hope you got your agreement in a document that will hold up in court, because I wouldn't count on those lying bastards to hold up their end of the bargain even if McCain's own mother's life depended on it.

[Rhys]

we need to focus this grassroots on action to do whatever it takes to make sure mccain crash and burns!!!!

McCain and working to do anything regarding his win or loss is a big loss for us all.

We work and focus on spreading OUR ideas, not making sure someone loses because then no one wins.... ever again.

We carry the banner, as RP said, of liberty... that does not mean we carry any banner of stopping anyone else. we advance. they do whatever they do. we win.

[trapfive]

I see it as the will of the people was subverted, again. They had a duty to represent their constituents by voting the way they wanted them to vote. The whole point of voting is to vote your conscience, and it is even more important to vote the way the people in your district demanded it. This is a good way of excusing their duty to the constituents.

The GOP will never change when it doesn't feel threatened, if PAUL was shown to have 200 delegates up on the big screen for all to see, for the pundits to ponder, for the country to discuss, that to me is real change. What we saw was a party self congratulating itself throughout for the job well done. HORSESHIT. The battle is one of perception, and that battle was lost because as a collective we managed a murmur with a handful of votes, we managed a murmur because these delegates made the wrong decision, playing politics with the one chance Ron Paul's views on liberty had to shine through the pitch dark that is the GOP has become. There is strength in numbers, and by caving the RP people showed weakness.

The problem with American politics is just that nobody votes on principle anymore. These people should be ashamed of themselves.

"They had a duty to represent their constituents by voting the way they wanted them to vote."

Oh really, why the dvd's for delegates then. This argument is flawed.

[TER]

If it is true that it is better for this movement if McCain loses this election, than I can't accept the excuses of these delegates.

[sidster]

I see it as the will of the people was subverted, again. They had a duty to represent their constituents by voting the way they wanted them to vote. The whole point of voting is to vote your conscience, and it is even more important to vote the way the people in your district demanded it. This is a good way of excusing their duty to the constituents.


I agree, people actually think that these delegates are doing their duty to take OUR VOTES and make sure that voice is heard at the convention. Caving to "build bridges" to help play the game does NOT sound like they did their job at all.

You can make buddies before and after the convention and simply let them know that it is not "your" vote you are casting but the THOUSANDS who entrusted their votes with your ONE..

I could not agree more with these two comments. I can't believe
the a-holes who thought they could do what they did, piss away
their obligations and stifle the voices of those they were representing
at the convention. Who the fuck do these jerks think they are?
They weren't there as individuals, they were there as REPRESENTATIVES!

[speciallyblend]

i will treat the gop like they treated ron paul!!!!! so crash and burn mccain you so deserve it!!!!

[tomaO2]

I came to change Washington but in the end Washington changed me.


To understand what it happening we must remember what has been done in the past. When Goldwater took the nomination he did so on a groundswell of conservative support. Those conservatives went through the system and eventually elected a Regan. Regan was not a Goldwater but he was close enough for those that had helped Goldwater. He said the right things and seemed aright. Even Ron Paul voted for him. However, he was not even close to what we needed but it was too late by then.

Those that had decided Regan (Ron Paul was a rare exception to this generality) was good enough never realized that the change they had gone out to give Washington had boomeranged and had infected them instead. He failed, perhaps he never was what he told his voters he was and the sad thing is no one realized it.

Today many think of Regan as some sort of wonderful conservative, a crowning moment but he wasn't. They had sold out their souls to get in office and from that moment on Republicans became more and more Liberal, because being liberal got the votes. The more we got in office the more we said we had to unite and become even MORE liberal to GET in office. We did that until we lost anything that made Republicans different.

Today we nominate the most liberal Republican yet. If he wins there will be no conservative resurgence because to do so would take away why we are winning. We don't want McCain to win. It doesn't matter if we are blamed. It might even be good because they know they have to get back to thier roots to gain our support.

For McCain to win is to justify selling out again, to show the innate correctness of following the policies of liberalization. You can't work from the inside to change things when the things you want to change are the reason why your side is winning. They don't fear losing your vote because you keep going back, like a battered wife. No matter how bad they treat you eventually, you reason, they are bound to start treating you right. However, the day you feel they are finally doing so is the day you completely sold out. Their views have become yours. Washington has finally changed you into a political creature that you rallied against in your youth.

We all like to think we can keep our principals but history has shown that we sacrifice them to win. Worse, we offer ourselves platitudes saying "I'll just bend here and then I'll win and then in power I'll change things." However, by that point they start thinking "I can be voted out in two years, I can't afford to risk as much as I like." So they console themselves saying they are still true conservatives while they become more liberal.

Those that voted for McCain have taken their first step to total sell out. Oh sure, they will give reasons but that's to sooth their own minds.

Those that support them have also sold out. You should not debate anyone trying. Each and every one of these people are a lost cause and are no further value to this movement. It's be sad if it wasn't so pathetic.

[Cinderella]

massachusetts sucks!!!

[hard@work]

I cannot think of what "concession" could have been granted that was worth this "political move". It is a sellout and a straight mistake. There is no benefit to us by us sending our representatives anywhere and having them represent another group. We needed to show these numbers in every area. After the abuse and the unethical rule breaking that occurred at every corner in every state with the establishment and career political operatives you would think the reps we had would be fired up to make their protest vote and be heard.

What benefit was given for this? Was there a threat of force relieved? Was there a devalued dollar promised?

God help us all if you who fell did so for a promise of political power.


If anything I think all of us should look at this as a massive warning. The corrupting influences or perhaps the fears of men leading to poor decisions under pressure - regardless - are to be made a focal point even for our own representatives.

On a positive note: they know our numbers even if they found ways to hide them, and they know they do not know how many sympathizers we have that will grow into supporters.

[sidster]

To the Ron Paul delegates who sold their votes for inroads to the Republican party:

It isn't my place to judge you. I wasn't in your shoes, and I don't know what it was like. I'm sure it was a hard decision, and I'm glad it wasn't mine to make.

I'm sure there must have been a lot running through your mind, weighing on your conscience, for example:
How many millions of dollars of campaign funds did it take to get you there?
How many hundreds of thousands of volunteer hours did it take to get you there?
How many thousands of Ron Paul supporters does your vote represent?
If McCain wins, and continues to "follow the course" and invade countries, how many lives of US soldiers does your vote represent? How many innocent lives in other countries?
If McCain wins, how many years will your children or grandchildren be debt slaves as a result of McCain's spending?

Like I said, it's not my place to judge... Those are just some of the things that would have weighed on my decision and my conscience.

I hope you got your agreement in a document that will hold up in court, because I wouldn't count on those lying bastards to hold up their end of the bargain even if McCain's own mother's life depended on it.

The more i think about this the more frustrated I get. As you
pointed out so much hard work, money and effort were spent
to get these jokers to the convention so that they could just
do ONE SIMPLE THING and these CLOWNS couldn't even do
that right.... simply amazing.


also this John Cunningham people should email this idiot and
demand he remove the 'Ron Paul Republican' tag line off of
his campaign. He is a sellout chicken-sh!t. his actions do not
represent anything Ron Paul has stood for all these years in
Congress.

[bbachtung]

WHORES!

Remember when Ron Paul stood up to those neo-con stooges in the South Carolina debate? He courageously took on a crowd of pitchfork-wielding fascists, egged-on by Benito Giuliani and the rest of the GOP warmonger crowd.

Ron Paul stood alone on a stage and took a stand on principle. Ron Paul stands up every day in Congress and votes no on all unconstitutional bills. Ron Paul is ridiculed and mocked by the establishment. Ron Paul is a hero.

The animals who sold out for a seat at the cool kids table in the cafeteria disgust me. The heroes from the Oklahoma delegation who stood on principle are the antithesis of the evil represented by Cunningham and the other neo-con lackeys. I hope that Cunningham loses so badly in his congressional race that he is embarassed to show his face in public. He and his buddies make me sick.

[bbachtung]

It sucks, but another way to look at it - when McCain goes down hard in November they can't claim it was because the Paul supporters divided the party.

McCain is going to win in November. Trust me on this. Obama peaked too early and the Dems have already surrendered on the war, the Fourth Amendment (FISA), and everything else on which they were even marginally different from the GOP.

Palin has energized the GOP base, and the GOP base usually (2006 was a big exception) shows up in huge numbers. A significantly smaller percentage of self-proclaimed Democratic voters show up each election and with the war a dead issue (the media's not covering it this year, which means that most voters don't remember it), the Democrats have no advantage over McCain come November.

Those who sold out at the convention for unity have helped get McCain elected without controversy (not that Obama would be any better -- he'll invade Pakistan instead of Iran, raise our taxes, and take the guns from our "bitter" hands).

The blood of our fellow citizens who are sent to die in foreign lands will be on the hands of anyone who votes McCain or Obama this November.

[TurtleBurger]

This was not a convention, it was a coronation party. A vote for Ron Paul would not have done anything; more than likely it wouldn't have even been reported. A pledge of support from the state party to support a RP-like congressional candidate is much more valuable than any stubborn stand these 6 delegates could have made. I agree that principle is critical, but that does not mean you have to throw strategy completely out the window. It is NOT a sell-out to withdraw from an unwinnable battle in exchange for concessions that are for the good of the whole movement.

[pauletteNV]

It has been stated that Ron Paul organizers asked for their to be no disruptions. So, o.k., don't be rude, don't be distruptive, but like Ron Paul, go toe-to-toe and quietly vote "Ron Paul," just say "No," or abstain if that is the best you can do. It almost comes down to a point of being compromised. McCain spent years in a prison camp and one of the reasons I feel I could never truly trust him, (besides all the obvious) is that I question what really happened to him during that time of captivity and now "compromised" was he and maybe is he still. I can understand the difficult position in which the delegates were placed and I am sure that in their minds they made a good decision...the powers that be knew how to push all the right buttons...but to me, they are now compromised. Maybe they wouldn't have been allowed to vote for Ron Paul, but some did and I'd sure like to know their names so that I could thank them for their service and diligence. Those who did not vote for Ron Paul had options rather than vote for McCain if that was not to be allowed. I have seen the GOP in action and do not trust that they will ever "honor" any compromises some feel they made. Just my opinion and I have been fighting finding my true ground on this one. Bottomline, however, is we must move on, take our battle scars, and fight again.

[Pauls' Revere]

This ahead of Mondays announcement makes me shudder the thought that Paul will support McCain.

:eek:

Like the Dems were going to pretend were one big happy family.

[RP4EVER]

This was not a convention, it was a coronation party. A vote for Ron Paul would not have done anything; more than likely it wouldn't have even been reported. A pledge of support from the state party to support a RP-like congressional candidate is much more valuable than any stubborn stand these 6 delegates could have made. I agree that principle is critical, but that does not mean you have to throw strategy completely out the window. It is NOT a sell-out to withdraw from an unwinnable battle in exchange for concessions that are for the good of the whole movement.

WRONG! It would have shown exactly how many people are against McCain.

MsDoodahs....since the movement exsisted far before this? Why has nothing like this ever been done?

[sidster]

WRONG! It would have shown exactly how many people are against McCain.

MsDoodahs....since the movement exsisted far before this? Why has nothing like this ever been done?

hear hear!!

[newyearsrevolution08]

What this shows is, we need to be more careful of who we vote as a delegate because some have VERY WEAK MINDS like this guy. If he caved as well as the many others than they are NOT what this effort needs AT ALL and I wish they would have told us their STUPID strategy before we voted them as delegates because we could have weeded these flip floppers out.

As far as Dr. Paul flipping to make friends, if that were the announcement don't you think he would have flip flopped with all of these shitty delegates who voted mccain so he could speak at the rnc? Why do it after the fact????

With all of those lone votes of Dr. Pauls against the majority in congress and then we have these delegates who are trying to make friends within the gop FOR WHAT? We can take over our local republican parties while voting for Ron Paul.

The point of taking it over is to REMOVE those who actual vote for assholes like mccain just due to "party friendliness".

What I would like is the lists of all our "supposed" delegates who flipped and will happily speak about it like this asshole jonny boy has done so we can MAKE SURE they are NOT voted as delegates or into office in the next elections. They are simply showing how easy they can be pushed, molded and played with for "party relations" and that is no different than the shitty politicians we already have in office.

So where do we find out who the delegates voted for?

-------------

check out the fools website

John Cunningham - http://www.johncunningham2008.com/

there is a poll on it

"Who does John Cunningham most resemble?"
option 1 - Bruce Willis
option 2 - john mccain

I can't tell if he is talking about looks OR voting record. I think he resembles that piece of shit John Mccain on both looks and voting record.

I hope people contact that guy and voice your opinion to him

campaign@johncunninghamforcongress.com

[Pauls' Revere]

"encouragement from the party leaders for pre-existing leaders to accept us?"

Yeah right, I'm suppose to trust a party that pulls the mic on delegates corrupting our political processes and freedoms!

This same party which has lied 935 times?!

What "concessions" EXACTLY did you recieve?

What "positions/offices" EXACTLY will we hold? (more fluff or real power?)

Then again, thats Massachuchetts for ya "The Collective State". Instead of standing on principle they bent over and got fucked.

[newyearsrevolution08]

"encouragement from the party leaders for pre-existing leaders to accept us?"

Yeah right, I'm suppose to trust a party that pulls the mic on delegates corrupting our political processes and freedoms!

This same party which has lied 935 times?!

What "concessions" EXACTLY did you recieve?

What "positions/offices" EXACTLY will we hold? (more fluff or real power?)

Then again, thats Massachuchetts for ya "The Collective State"

This is the same political bullshit that happily yells out USA USA USA to drown out an Iraq War Vet during the convention as though he was doing something wrong!

[speciallyblend]

disgusting, selling out to the gop,is not holding them accountable to me???

[gjvrieze]

..........

[speciallyblend]

This is complete BS, the delegates job is to represent the voters who they are representing, God damnit, this is so dumb, RP could have had his votes known, what a waste of the 5% RP prolly has of the party......

look mass delegates i live in colorado and i have a deal for you , you can buy vail ski resorts for $1 dollar deal?? SWEET:) sell outs, these people are suckers for even believing these lying gop people!!!

THE COLORADO GOP are LIARS, the NATIONAL GOP ARE LIARS and I WILL TELL'EM TO THEIR FACES!!!!!!

[newyearsrevolution08]

these people are suckers for even believing these lying gop people!!!

Or we were the suckers thinking these guys were actual Ron Paul delegates.....

[sidster]

Or we were the suckers thinking these guys were actual Ron Paul delegates.....

infuriates me to think there were some of us that were
working on getting Revolution A Manifesto to the hands
of non-Ron Paul delegates in the hopes to make them see
the light, yet OUR OWN delegates SELL US OUT!

F-ing unbelievable!

[puppetmaster]

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin


They are part of the problem with these treasonous acts...easily swayed and should be swinging. I am so sorry Ron Paul. I had higher expectations for these folks. The strong shall prevail the weak shall parish.

[TheTyke]

This reminds me of our Real Politics training. Did the delegates miss it? When you cause trouble for politicians, they will try three things on you.

1) Threaten you.
2) Try to explain away what they're doing.
3) Buy you off.

Sounds to me like all of these things happened. You fell for #3... they will offer you a "seat at the table" or to "advise them" - at which point you stop representing the people, and start representing the politicians instead. You then compromise your beliefs, and the box moves to the 'left'.

You played right into their hands. I wish they had heard this before they decided to sell us out. It is the wrong way, and we'll only make any headway if we do not compromise!

People, don't give up or be discouraged. Keep fighting. Learn from their mistakes, and don't ever, ever do it yourselves. Watch for it. Every one of us who remains active will have to make this decision at some point, and it won't be easy. But we can prevail.

[MsDoodahs]

WRONG! It would have shown exactly how many people are against McCain.

MsDoodahs....since the movement exsisted far before this? Why has nothing like this ever been done?

Because the internet did not exist.

We had no idea where each other were, or how many others with similar beliefs were out there.

Now, we do.

[RP4EVER]

And yet we got royally screwed? One goes HMMMMMMM

[KenInMontiMN]

If you want to turn the focus in more constructive positive directions then recognize that the real question/problem here is why the delegations in a good number of states had no choice, by law or rule, but to vote McCain or abstain. The problem is with winner take all binding primaries. The following states have such primaries:
Arizona - McCain won with 47%
California - McCain won with 42%
Connecticut - McCain won with 52%
Delaware - McCain won with 45%
DC - McCain won with 68%
Florida - McCain won with 36%
Georgia - Huckabee won with 34%
Maryland - McCain won with 55%
Michigan - Romney won with 39%
Mississippi - McCain won with 78%
Missouri - McCain won with 33%
New Jersey - McCain won with 55%
New York - McCain won with 52%
Ohio - McCain won with 60%
Oklahoma - McCain won with 37%
South Carolina - McCain won with 33%
Texas - McCain won with 52% (winner take all if over 50%, but its a combined process where cong. dist.'s choose del by their results also, and any dist. with winner <50% goes proportional instead of winner take all)
Utah - Romney 89%
Vermont - McCain 71%
Virginia - McCain 50%
Wisconsin - McCain 55%

Now that's a fairly lengthy list of states. It includes many large states; it goes to the heart of why the GOP is so top down- grass roots choices outside the box ends up with no representation by rule. Obviously job 1 in those states is to get those rules changed if you'd like at least proportional primary representation. Better still, the caucus system elects unbound delegates who can make up their own minds based upon what the picture looks like in September, as opposed to being bound in early February. In comparison, the Dem's have exactly zero winner-take-all primaries. All of the above states reported unanimous McCain totals with just one exception- despite being against the rules Utah allowed 2 Romney votes through.

Most of the noise in these threads has been about MA & NV. In MA they have a proportional primary where the delegates are bound on the first ballot to vote in according to the primary proportion formula. Now Romney won there, McCain 2nd. Most proportional states have a minimum threshold of something like 15% or the candidate is awarded no delegates. Paul took 2.6% of the votes in MA, and I presume by rule that's why the only choices open to delegates (other than abstain) was either Romney or McCain. No others garnered as much as 5% even. Clearly even with a proportional primary system there is no representation in many cases for candidates with low percentages in the primary. Now Nevada has a caucus system; you've all heard about the controversy that developed there at the state convention. But even setting that aside I can't think of one single reason why NV delegates could be denied by rule a vote for the candidate of their choice in St. Paul. That state should be open to all-out war with the party, and the NV party brass fully deserves to completely shot down for not following their own rules, at least as far as I can tell from a distance.

Here's where the 15 Paul votes actually came from:
Alaska 5
Oregon 4
Washington 4
West Virginia 2

Followed by a list of states where at least some if not all of the Paul delegates held firm and abstained; note that in some of these states such as my own there was absolutely no basis in the rules to deny these unbound delegates the vote of their choice and there will be hell to pay for that- as long as McCain doesn't win. If McCain wins then the brass'll be telling the majority that the end justified the means. McCain must not win or everything reverts back to square one in terms of getting rules changed and dumping the neocon RINO's presently running the show:
Idaho 6
Maine 1
Minnesota 6
Nebraska 2
North Carolina 4
Pennsylvania 1
And an honorable mention for the 2 delegates from Oklahoma who voted Paul but the chair incorrectly recorded it as unanimous for McCain.

Now that's a total of 37. Not 200+. Even if the Nevada convention had been allowed to run it's course and swept for Paul 31 more makes 68. Minnesota by rights should have had 9 but the three elected from the state convention waffled and voted McCain, no real surprise as they were too deeply rooted in with the party mainstream, not something we wanted but the party disqualified the majority of those who wanted their names in the running from even being on the delegate ballot, we knew that would happen and submitted some candidates we knew would get through their filters in hopes they might come through with a Paul vote. None did, including the woman who delivered the invocation at the rally. Our people had been working hard in her congressional campaign but will reconsider that from here forward.

[newyearsrevolution08]

If you want to turn the focus in more constructive positive directions then recognize that the real question/problem here is why the delegations in a good number of states had no choice, by law or rule, but to vote McCain or abstain. The problem is with winner take all binding primaries. The following states have such primaries:
Arizona - McCain won with 47%
California - McCain won with 42%
Connecticut - McCain won with 52%
Delaware - McCain won with 45%
DC - McCain won with 68%
Florida - McCain won with 36%
Georgia - Huckabee won with 34%
Maryland - McCain won with 55%
Michigan - Romney won with 39%
Mississippi - McCain won with 78%
Missouri - McCain won with 33%
New Jersey - McCain won with 55%
New York - McCain won with 52%
Ohio - McCain won with 60%
Oklahoma - McCain won with 37%
South Carolina - McCain won with 33%
Texas - McCain won with 52% (winner take all if over 50%, but its a combined process where cong. dist.'s choose del by their results also, and any dist. with winner <50% goes proportional instead of winner take all)
Utah - Romney 89%
Vermont - McCain 71%
Virginia - McCain 50%
Wisconsin - McCain 55%

Now that's a fairly lengthy list of states. It includes many large states; it goes to the heart of why the GOP is so top down- grass roots choices outside the box ends up with no representation by rule. Obviously job 1 in those states is to get those rules changed if you'd like at least proportional primary representation. Better still, the caucus system elects unbound delegates who can make up their own minds based upon what the picture looks like in September, as opposed to being bound in early February. In comparison, the Dem's have exactly zero winner-take-all primaries. All of the above states reported unanimous McCain totals with just one exception- despite being against the rules Utah allowed 2 Romney votes through.

Most of the noise in these threads has been about MA & NV. In MA they have a proportional primary where the delegates are bound on the first ballot to vote in according to the primary proportion formula. Now Romney won there, McCain 2nd. Most proportional states have a minimum threshold of something like 15% or the candidate is awarded no delegates. Paul took 2.6% of the votes in MA, and I presume by rule that's why the only choices open to delegates (other than abstain) was either Romney or McCain. No others garnered as much as 5% even. Clearly even with a proportional primary system there is no representation in many cases for candidates with low percentages in the primary. Now Nevada has a caucus system; you've all heard about the controversy that developed there at the state convention. But even setting that aside I can't think of one single reason why NV delegates could be denied by rule a vote for the candidate of their choice in St. Paul. That state should be open to all-out war with the party, and the NV party brass fully deserves to completely shot down for not following their own rules, at least as far as I can tell from a distance.

Here's where the 15 Paul votes actually came from:
Alaska 5
Oregon 4
Washington 4
West Virginia 2

Followed by a list of states where at least some if not all of the Paul delegates held firm and abstained; note that in some of these states such as my own there was absolutely no basis in the rules to deny these unbound delegates the vote of their choice and there will be hell to pay for that- as long as McCain doesn't win. If McCain wins then the brass'll be telling the majority that the end justified the means. McCain must not win or everything reverts back to square one in terms of getting rules changed and dumping the neocon RINO's presently running the show:
Idaho 6
Maine 1
Minnesota 6
Nebraska 2
North Carolina 4
Pennsylvania 1
And an honorable mention for the 2 delegates from Oklahoma who voted Paul but the chair incorrectly recorded it as unanimous for McCain.

Now that's a total of 37. Not 200+. Even if the Nevada convention had been allowed to run it's course and swept for Paul 31 more makes 68. Minnesota by rights should have had 9 but the three elected from the state convention waffled and voted McCain, no real surprise as they were too deeply rooted in with the party mainstream, not something we wanted but the party disqualified the majority of those who wanted their names in the running from even being on the delegate ballot, we knew that would happen and submitted some candidates we knew would get through their filters in hopes they might come through with a Paul vote. None did, including the woman who delivered the invocation at the rally. Our people had been working hard in her congressional campaign but will reconsider that from here forward.

Great update of information indeed. At least we know that when push comes to shove some will just sit quietly. We need to do our best to have those FOR SURE voting delegates and alternates there next time. Even if they need to play the game to get into the national convention, to MAKE SURE and stick to the plan and make their votes count for Ron Paul no matter who gets pissed off or looks down on them. It is a public decision, not a top down style of voting.

[KenInMontiMN]

Closing argument against primaries of any sort selecting delegates:

States that voted at 10%+ for Paul and delegate selection method-
Alaska - 17.2% - caucus system
Idaho - 23.8% - combined selection from proportional primary & caucus system
Kansas - 11.2% - caucus system
Maine - 18.4% - caucus system
Minnesota - 15.7% - caucus system
Montana - 24.6% - advisory primary is essentially a beauty contest; caucus system chooses unbound delegates
Nebraska - 13.0% - advisory primary is essentially a beauty contest; caucus system chooses unbound delegates
Nevada - 13.7% - caucus system
New Mexico - 14.0% - proportional primary
North Dakota - 21.4% - caucus system
Oregon - 14.5% - proportional primary
Pennsylvania - 15.8% - loophole primary
South Dakota - 16.5% - proportional primary
Washington - 20.8% - a three-way mix of the w-t-a primary at the CD level, proportional primary at the state level, & a caucus system

-no winner take all primaries yielded that 10%; the best showing among those strictly w-t-a states was Vermont at just 6.6%; the strong majority of these came in under 5%
-just 3 proportional primaries did so; it does get the voter out of w-t-a mentality in the voting booth
-all of the rest of the states coming in at 10%+ used a caucus system for some if not all of the delegate selection process- basically limiting the voting to those willing to commit a couple hours to the process on a weeknight. Every state that polls at a caucus came in at 10%+ with just two exceptions: Iowa right there at 9.9% and Colorado not too far behind at 8.4

[Badger Paul]

Yes we had over 200 people at the RNC supporting us but most of those were alternates. At most we would have had 35 delegates vote total, maybe a little bit more but not much to make a huge impact.

I too was pissed off at the way the convention was ran and the way our delegates were treated. But I'm not going to attack them because I wasn't there nor do I know what the situation is in their local GOP. If the state GOP treated me like an outcast, then no way in hell would I vote for McCain. But if they were willing to work with you and allow for major influence within the party in the future, who to say we wouldn't be enticed by such an offer if it was sincere. Right now the Mass GOP is in such rotten shape THEY NEED Ron Paul supporters to build it back up again.

This is what working within the GOP means. If don't like it, don't do it. Leave and find another party. But to all those who want be on the "inside" you may think you're going to be a player, but your opponents think they're co-opting you as well. It's a very tricky thing and you're going to have a lot of moments where you're going to have to decide between principle and power or the illusion of power. Be wary and cautions and ready to stand up for what you believe in even if it may cost you your "status" otherwise being on the "inside" won't be worth what you have to give up. You've been warned.

[teshuah]

None did, including the woman who delivered the invocation at the rally. Our people had been working hard in her congressional campaign but will reconsider that from here forward.

In defense of Barb Davis White, she did not vote at all (in fact she was not present to vote from what I have been told) because she was put on the GOP the slate and afterward was told that she MUST vote would for McCain being on the slate. She did not want to vote for him, so she stayed away and the alternate took her spot - voting for McCain.

[KenInMontiMN]

In defense of Barb Davis White, she did not vote at all (in fact she was not present to vote from what I have been told) because she was put on the GOP the slate and afterward was told that she MUST vote would for McCain being on the slate. She did not want to vote for him, so she stayed away and the alternate took her spot - voting for McCain.

OK, glad to hear that.

[MelissaWV]

*quietly* yay WV... a zero turned into a theoretical 3, and ended up being a tangible 2. I don't know what happened to the third person, but hey... in a state where RP was eliminated in the first round of voting at the convention, that is a nice little footnote to the hard work of the people who were there.

[Adam Smith]

I'm sure a lot of us felt just a tiny bit of the same kind of pressure when we tried to become national delegates at our state conventions.

In Georgia, when we tried to force a suspension of the rules at the state GOP convention, we had to stand up among all the delegates. There were about 150 of us spread out in a crowd of a thousand people in attendance. So many people were angry at us. Others less so, but it was very hard to take a stand right there in the middle of people who wanted us to go along and not make a scene.

I can only imagine what I would've felt in the midst of all the events of last week in Minnesota, being in a very tiny minority and trying to stand up to all that pressure.

I hope those of you complaining about MA's Ron Paul constituents actively tried to become state delegates to the national convention last spring.

[mnewcomb]

You guys caved and there is nothing you can do to spin it.

To normal folks, like me, you actually lost ALL respect when you went back on your word.

I don't care if Ron Paul lost a gazillion to one, that one vote would have be mine...

[mnewcomb]

But if they were willing to work with you and allow for major influence within the party in the future...

Cause they can be trusted... right?
And the deals they made can be enforced... right?

[Spirit of '76]

*quietly* yay WV... a zero turned into a theoretical 3, and ended up being a tangible 2. I don't know what happened to the third person, but hey...

The state chair demoted me to alternate delegate and appointed Dr. Diane Shafer (who allegedly is married to Henry Vinson, the man who was charged with operating a homosexual prostitute ring in which the call boys were given 'midnight tours' of the White House) as delegate in my place. It seems Dr. Shafer had donated the maximum amount to the party, and I hadn't.

We were assured that she was "100% for Ron Paul", but when we met her in Minnesota, she would hardly talk to us. She didn't know about any of the C4L events, and she simply disappeared after the 2nd day of the convention.

We couldn't track her down, and without exchanging credentials with her, I could not get access to the convention floor. When the time came for the vote, she was nowhere to be found, so only two of our three Ron Paul delegates were on the convention floor when the vote was taken.

[KenInMontiMN]

LOL, allegedly married? What isn't a crime these days?

[Spirit of '76]

LOL, allegedly married? What isn't a crime these days?

No one seems to be able to say if they are married or not. A reporter claims to have called her house, and a man answered and said that his name was "Henry Shafer". When she asked if he was Henry Vinson, he shouted obscenities at her and hung up.

[Mortikhi]

All traitors. All have a nice place in my signature.

Don't plan on running for office boys, because I will be there to show the voters what spineless hacks you really are.

Traitor list:
Chris Dryer - Sold his vote for Rage Against the Machine tickets
Carl Bunce - "pressured" into voting for McCain
Lisa Marie Johnson - voted McCain so she could "fight another day"
Matt Davidson - delegate that voted McCain by "giving up"
John Cunningham - voted McCain because "it was inevitable" - running for US Rep in 7th district in MA
Chris Blanc - because MA GOP wanted unanimous support
Victoria Pingaroon - didn't even go. gave spot to McCain delegate

[tonesforjonesbones]

I understand the angst of the Ron Paul supporters on this forum. I was VERY angry at the GOP for the way Dr. Paul was treated and I rebelled by leaving the GOP and going to the LP. I watched G. Edward Griffins speech about his Freedom Force movement since then. I encourage all of you to go and watch that.
The neoconservatives who hijacked the GOP did not do it by revolting within the party...they did it by being the biggest cheerleaders in the party, thereby gaining their respect and confidence, and then slowly shifted the party to their point of view. They became party leaders, and were appointed into high position. What we have to do is reverse that by using the same tactics. I agree with Ron Paul and I'm quite sure this is what his plan is. It is not going to happen over night, but unless we can gain respect within the party...we will get nowhere. I agree with the letters above. This is the way to take the party over...you have to play the game. TONES

[greenspj]

Funny how Jeff Greenspan and Don Rasmussen who idolize Lew Moore lament "people like Bradley (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=151223)" for not working with the party while he demonizes Sue et al. who welcomed Dr. Paul. Is that another example of the Lew Moore style of furthering the movement? :eek:


Sue Lowden was extremely hostile to Ron Paul supporters.

This is Bradley's attempt to create division through lies and speculation about things he knows nothing about.

But what's new. That's what you've done the whole campaign.

You cannot provide ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE for what you post. Not one. Nor have you. Ever.

[rp4vp]

I was there. And it wasn't pretty - in fact, it was worse than it's been described in most places.

RedHats following us around. BlackHats demanding to search our bags and confiscating whatever they felt like. Everyone around us laughing and jeering at us. Ugly faces shoving themselves in our faces.

No, it wasn't pretty. But we knew it wouldn't be before we ever went in there. We ourselves described it in advance as "Christians in the Roman coliseum" and "Davey Crocket at the Alamo". We were going in to LOSE - but we were going to do it standing on PRINCIPLE in order to trailblaze for freedom-lovers who would come after us, and who could look to our example for inspiration and guidance as they fought the good fight.

I was only an alternate, but I did everything I could to make sure our delegates could stand by their principles to the fullest extent possible under the rules and state laws. For two days we tried to get Dr. Paul a speaking slot, under a "Fairness Campaign." Then we pushed for delegates to "Abstain from McCain" if they weren't able to change their pledged votes. And on the final night, we tried to get an actual roll call vote for VP instead of an acclamation, so that all of the RP supporters could at least cast their votes for him (there are NO bound votes for VP).

Even when I was given a delegate pass for 30 minutes to have the "experience" of being on the floor, I used my time to take petitions to small delegations like Guam and the Marianas Islands, to try to get that 5-delegation majority support and get RP's name in the nomination.

Like so many of the RP supporters that went to the RNC, I busted my butt to fulfill my duties and obligations to those who had busted their own butts to get me there, and who wanted to see SOMETHING registered for Dr. Paul there.

And then, we were betrayed.

I don't use that word lightly. I sent text messages and emails, talked to delegates individually, did everything I could to make sure our people didn't listen to the likes of Drew Ivers... and then heard about delegate after delegate voting for McCain, when they didn't have to.

I'm disgusted. Yes, we are all individuals, and as individuals have to make our own decisions. But then we have to face the consequences of those decisions. Those delegates who sold out can be commended for their courageous fight against the enemy in order to get there, just like Benedict Arnold. But like Benedict Arnold, they will be forever stained with their final actions, where they betrayed the trust of those who had sent them there to do a job.

Shame on them. I have burned so many political bridges in order to go up there and stand on principle - how dare they turn that into dung. And that's what they have done.

I've read all of the reasons, and all of the excuses. None of them rise to the level of acceptable. I was there. I know.

Now, let's get on with the Revolution, and take back our party. We will be doing so in my state. What about in your state?