Who would cause more damage to America, Obama or McCain?

[Liberty Star]

I was little disappointed by McCain VP Palin's earlier radical religious Iraq talk but overall she may not be as bad considering risks that Obama presidency could bring. If Palin/McCain surrogates can make Obama look like a slick snake oil salesman without much substance as they seem to be doing now, GOP has a pretty good shot at beating Obama. All things considered, I'm thinking now that Obama presidency poses greater risks to America and McCain-Palin would be the "lesser evil".


Who do you think would cause greater damage to America, Obama or McCain?


Here is a quick list of their pros/cons, feel free to add your factors.


McCain's positives:


Has some character and convictions and at time has taken positions not popular within his own party

Has served with honor

Has criticized Bush admin's conduct of Iraq war, called Rumsfeld one of the worst SoD in history, spoke up against use of torture

Is known commodity (experienced) and will provide steady hand in navigating policies

Made a bold choice in VP pick to mobilize evangelicals and women

McCain's negatives:


Displayed wrong judgment on Iraq war decision

Allied with same GOP machinery that produced Bush

Made a risky choice in VP pick by picking an evangelical



Obama's Positives:


Does not look like Bush or Cheney

Has little Washington experience

Opposed Iraq war decision
(However, about 90% of "non White" Americans opposed Iraq war, this wasn't just extraordinary judgment)

Obama's Negatives:



Lacks strong leadership or convictions and flip flops often for political expediency ( his grovel before pro war aipac lobby was only one of the recent examples)

Lacks any executive experience and excels at self promotion

Could become puppet in the hands of pro war foreign lobbying groups going by his brief recent record of flip flops

Could cause high oil prices for long term (Oil prices spiked after Obama's bungled Jerusalem speech before aipac)

[RockEnds]

Which would do more damage to this country? Whichever one wins.

[Paulfan05]

Il say mccain, even tho their both interventionists I got a feeling mccain would start more wars than Obama

[RJB]

Which is better for the country? For it to be flushed down a toilet? or a urinal?

[Liberty Star]

Which would do more damage to this country? Whichever one wins.

Good one : -)



Il say mccain, even tho their both interventionists I got a feeling mccain would start more wars than Obama

McCain has been in this mess with all of them but public pressure against a GOP President may be too high to start a new war, GOP having been "burnt" from Iraq blunder. It may be possibly easier for pro war lobbies to cultivate/pressure/blackmail a weak leader like Obama than McCain. McCain has been wrong in Iraq judgment but he has some strong leadership traits as well.

[newyearsrevolution08]

why does it matter?

they are both NOT what we need for this country.

[nate895]

McCain's positives:

[LIST]
Has some character and convictions and at time has taken positions not popular within his own party

Has served with honor


A man with character doesn't leave his wife because she gets injured in a car wreck.

He wouldn't have been able to serve at all if his dad and grandpa weren't Admirals. That's why he wants to be President, he will finally be able to outrank his dad and grandpa.

[ChickenHawk]

I'm not sure. I think there is a slim chance McCain could turn out to be a pretty decent president but I wouldn't put money on it. I think Obama is a lot more likely to get the country into more wars even wars that have nothing to do with US interests. I think McCain might go to war with congress over spending causing an impasse that will eliminate federal deficit spending and strengthen the dollar. If Obama and a left wing congress rams through health care, gun control, huge tax increases and expands existing entitlements we could see a backlash that would make 1994 look like a routine election.

[Liberty Star]

Which is better for the country? For it to be flushed down a toilet? or a urinal?

You made your point well.




why does it matter?

they are both NOT what we need for this country.

I agree with second part, but one of them is going to be POTUS and it would help to know if there would be any difference between the two.




I'm not sure. I think there is a slim chance McCain could turn out to be a pretty decent president but I wouldn't put money on it. I think Obama is a lot more likely to get the country into more wars even wars that have nothing to do with US interests. I think McCain might go to war with congress over spending causing an impasse that will eliminate federal deficit spending and strengthen the dollar. If Obama and a left wing congress rams through health care, gun control, huge tax increases and expands existing entitlements we could see a backlash that would make 1994 look like a routine election.

I tend to agree with much of this. Obama could be worse of the two.



A man with character doesn't leave his wife because she gets injured in a car wreck.

He wouldn't have been able to serve at all if his dad and grandpa weren't Admirals. That's why he wants to be President, he will finally be able to outrank his dad and grandpa.

I'm not a McCain fan but compared to Obama and politically speaking, he's better in this department based on their political and personal records. McCain has some convictions and beliefs that he stands up for now and then, has Obama ever displayed any evidence of strong conviction or charater? Everything is relative and comparitive here.

[orafi]

Considering the extent of the damage any of them would cause... does it really fucking matter?

[newyearsrevolution08]

They both will damage the hell out of this country.

They both will lie to get into office.

They both will change their entire platform as president IF they want just like Bush did.

They both will continue this war.

They both will continue overspending OUR money.

They both are for the free hand outs which promotes illegal entry into this country.

They are both LOST to think that a form of dictatorship is how we need to be "led" in life.

I do NOT see any difference between the two minus Abortion and Health Care and that is about it.

[Paulitician]

McCain, without a doubt.

But I always wondered, who would be better for the liberty movement? I think after 4 years of Obama's failure (because he will fail), that he would inspire both libertarian but also unfortunately neo-conservative feelings among the public again.

McCain would inspire probably a more Old Right-libertarian sentiments accross the public, but also Marxists ones as well.

What do you guys think needs to be more discredited, neo-conservatism (John McCain) or Marxism (Obama)?

[newyearsrevolution08]

McCain, without a doubt.

But I always wondered, who would be better for the liberty movement? I think after 4 years of Obama's failure (because he will fail), that he would inspire both libertarian but also unfortunately neo-conservative feelings among the public again.

McCain would inspire probably a more Old Right-libertarian sentiments accross the public, but also Marxists ones as well.

What do you guys think needs to be more discredited, neo-conservatism (John McCain) or Marxism (Obama)?

It has zero to do with which PARTY would better help the "movement". BOTH PARTIES are what needs to be changed and it really does not matter which one is in charge BECAUSE they BOTH have the same model that they run on which is AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION.

It isn't an US vs. Them or Republican vs. Democrat issue like they HOPE we all as Americans sit and bitch about. It is about the system we have in place that runs the republican AND democratic parties and their platforms.

Both CURRENTLY would be just as bad as each other plain and simple.

I would love to hear why having a democrat in office is worse than having a republican in office OR having a republican in office versus a democrat????

What would one do differently then the other?

Would one change how our country is ran over the other?
Would one stop the illegal wars that are going on, over the other?
Would one stop giving out handouts to illegals and foreign countries, over the other?
Would one stop the war on drugs, over the other?

can you not see how PARTY BULLSHIT does not matter, and us making sure to get one of these assholes in office OVER the other is FUCKING STUPID.
Woul

[DAFTEK]

No one has answered my few posts about what Obama will do to our tax system vs. McCain and that isn't on this list either.. So based on that i would say Obama will destroy our financial system sooner then McCain... We all hate McCain for the so many reasons, i for one only hate his warmongering and the fact that he mocked Ron Paul, in rest the guy doesn't get the respect he deserves. Personally i pray Obama will lose and McCain win. I cant vote for McCain as much as i like Palin for the so many reasons she was viewed as someone good before her VP endorsement. I don't care much about Barr but i like Baldwin allot. I'm still inclined to write in with a big magic marker on the paper ballot but I'm just afraid of someone putting an X in the boxes after i cast my vote empty in the machine, not sure how exactly the write in will work yet as i haven't done it before.

[DAFTEK]

Don't get me wrong "LibertyStar" but the option for "Don't know/ Other " should only have "Don't know" as we all know one of those two will be president, am i wrong?

[DAFTEK]

why does it matter?

they are both NOT what we need for this country.

It does matter and i have tried over and over to reason with you but you just go into attack mode like so many others here. The fact is one will be the president, have you balanced them out yet? No one said to vote for them but at least know the differences in them. look at it this way who is worst of worse and in what way? :D Its a fucked up situation that none of the RPF members wants to talk about rationally and we all see the painting in different angles... :o.

[RockEnds]

.... The fact is one will be the president....

It's not over yet! Don't lose HOPE for CHANGE!!! :D

[DAFTEK]

It's not over yet! Don't lose HOPE for CHANGE!!! :D

lol, yeah, i can only pray and trust me i do every time we sit down for dinner. :)

[RockEnds]

lol, yeah, i can only pray and trust me i do every time we sit down for dinner. :)

Yeah, chances are really good one of the two will win. But they chant those slogans because they know people are hoping for change. Someday, somehow, something will happen that will expose the establishment for what it is, and change will come. I haven't lost hope that it will be sooner rather than later. In any case, I'm ready today. I don't pretend to support either of the candidates because I want to be the one my neighbors listen to when they realize they've been lied to all of their lives. I can't do that if they think I've been fooled as well. That's just the way I see it.

[FindLiberty]

Those behind the throne are pulling the NWO strings... DOES NOT MATTER BETWEEN THESE TWO (BO or JM).

[Drknows]

They both scare the shit out of me.

Obama scares me just a little bit more because he has a agenda and seems like he would do anything biden or someone else wants. And when the democrats control three branches of government we all get screwed even if they have good intentions.

they will be able to pass and do anything they want. No system of checks and balances.

More taxation on a weak economy will drive up prices and could cause a fast depression .


I don't think Mccain really has a agenda. I think he just wants to be president because hes getting old and knows he wont get another chance. Also he will be just like bush following the same path of slow destruction and ignoring problems. he wouldnt be able to get anything done if the dems control the house and senate.

I'm probably wrong though.

[DAFTEK]

^ Finally someone open minded who understands the problems we face of a full democratic control, that is my main concern at the moment...

[Golding]

This is like asking if it's better to have a heart attack or a stroke.

[kaleidoscope eyes]

Each will probably be equally damaging but in different ways.
dey boaf sux

[Kludge]

I'd cause more damage.

Open borders, eliminations of tariffs, immediate dissolution of Medicare/Medicaid.

Y'all'd be fuck'd.

[pinkmandy]

I think McCain is more dangerous. Why? Because look at what Bush accomplished while his "base" ignored it and refused to stand up to him. Stupid freaking 11th commandment, remember?

I know if Obama wins, the GOP base (not the neocons) will fight his agenda every step of the way and if Obama doesn't follow through on his promises, if he starts more wars like I think he will, his own following might stand up, too. People are freaking sick of war, except for Republicans who will support it blindly if a Republican starts it. :rolleyes:

I think Obama gives us the best chance at waking up enough "everyday" people to take back this country.

[DAFTEK]

I'd cause more damage.

Open borders, eliminations of tariffs, immediate dissolution of Medicare/Medicaid.

Y'all'd be fuck'd.

You cause enough damage around here, god forbid a Kludge Presidency... lol :p

[DAFTEK]

So far only a few posts with info on the subject so my question hasn't been answered on the monetary problems we would face with Obama.

Here is one post: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1654930&postcount=22




Proposed changes in taxes after 2008 General election:





CAPITAL GAINS TAX

MCCAIN
0% on home sales up to $500,000
per home (couples) McCain does not
propose any change in existing
home sales income tax.
OBAMA
28% on profit from ALL home sales
How does this affect you?
If you sell your home and make a profit, you
will pay 28% of your gain on taxes.
If you are heading toward retirement
and would like to down-size your
home or move into a retirement
community, 28% of the money you
make from your home will go to taxes. This
proposal will adversely affect the
elderly who are counting on the income
from their homes as part of their retirement income.
DIVIDEND TAX
MCCAIN 15% (no change)
OBAMA 39.6%
How will this affect you?
If you have any money invested in stock
market, IRA, mutual funds,
college funds, life insurance, retirement
accounts, or anything that pays
or reinvests dividends, you will now
be paying nearly 40% of the money
earned on taxes if Obama become president.
The experts predict that 'higher
tax rates on dividends and capital gains
would crash the stock market yet
do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.
INCOME TAX
MCCAIN (no changes)
Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $31,250
OBAMA
(reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)
Single making 30K - tax $8,400
Single making 50K - tax $14,000
Single making 75K - tax $23,250
Married making 60K - tax $16,800
Married making 75K - tax $21,000
Married making 125K - tax $38,750


Under Obama your taxes will
more than double!
How does this affect you? No explanation
needed. This is pretty
straight forward.
INHERITANCE TAX
MCCAIN 0% (No change, Bush repealed this tax)
OBAMA Restore the inheritance tax
How does this affect you? Many families
have lost businesses,
farms and ranches, and homes
that have
been in their families
for generations because they could not
afford the inheritance tax.
Those willing their assets to loved
ones will not only lose them to
these taxes.
NEW TAXES BEING PROPOSED BY OBAMA
* New government taxes proposed on
homes that are more than
2400 square feet
* New gasoline taxes (as if
gas weren't high enough already)
* New taxes on natural resources
consumption (heating
gas, water, electricity)
* New taxes on retirement accounts
and last but not least....
* New taxes to pay for socialized medicine
so we can receive the same
level of medical care as other

third-world countries!!!

[Conza88]

I'ma refuse to answer this one...

More damage... in what regard? Temporarily, like short term..o r we looking long term?

Say....... McCain would implement a draft... (i.e the REAL revolution kicks off)... Vietnam War protests no. 2 ? :confused:

*Shrugs* they both suck.

[Liberty Star]

They both scare the shit out of me.

Obama scares me just a little bit more because he has a agenda and seems like he would do anything biden or someone else wants. And when the democrats control three branches of government we all get screwed even if they have good intentions.

they will be able to pass and do anything they want. No system of checks and balances.

More taxation on a weak economy will drive up prices and could cause a fast depression .


I don't think Mccain really has a agenda. I think he just wants to be president because hes getting old and knows he wont get another chance. Also he will be just like bush following the same path of slow destruction and ignoring problems. he wouldnt be able to get anything done if the dems control the house and senate.

I'm probably wrong though.


You maybe right actually, it's horrible choice but Obama seem to have a greater chance of becoming a puppet of anti American lobbies.



I think McCain is more dangerous. Why? Because look at what Bush accomplished while his "base" ignored it and refused to stand up to him. Stupid freaking 11th commandment, remember?

I know if Obama wins, the GOP base (not the neocons) will fight his agenda every step of the way and if Obama doesn't follow through on his promises, if he starts more wars like I think he will, his own following might stand up, too. People are freaking sick of war, except for Republicans who will support it blindly if a Republican starts it. :rolleyes:

I think Obama gives us the best chance at waking up enough "everyday" people to take back this country.

I'm no fan of McCain and used to think like you too but Obama is too slick going by his record already and my trust in him has eroded. Snake oil salesman who would say anything to win an election.

[Liberty Star]

So far only a few posts with info on the subject so my question hasn't been answered on the monetary problems we would face with Obama.

Here is one post: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1654930&postcount=22


[/CENTER]


I think economy is very closely tied to Iraq war and other mid east policy issues. Signs are that McCain would not repeat Bush's mistakes and Obama could become a puppet in the hands of pro war lobbies. People with better knowledge about economic policy will answer your question better but I'm leaning that generally Obama might be worse.


I'ma refuse to answer this one...

More damage... in what regard? Temporarily, like short term..o r we looking long term?

Say....... McCain would implement a draft... (i.e the REAL revolution kicks off)... Vietnam War protests no. 2 ? :confused:

*Shrugs* they both suck.

Choice is horrible, I can understand where you coming from as they both have major flaws. I was looking for views on assessment of damage both short and long term.

[Freedom 4 all]

I think McCain will do more damage.

If Obama wins, he will fail and it will be seen as socialism's failure but also a failure on the part of the neocons seeing as McCain couldn't win and hence a liberty minded republican will win in 2012

If McCain wins, he will fail and it will be seen (by morons, but still a very large number of people) as capitalism's failure and socialists will gain heavilly in power.

[Number19]

Other!

The thing is it is irrelevant. A McCain presidency will face a Democrat congress - a veto proof congress. Obama will rubber stamp everything that comes out of congress.

We need an Obama victory. This would be a Democrat Congress and a Democrat President, starting a term under adverse conditions. This situation will self implode and will take America deep into a depression.

Remember, Roosevelt did not pull America out of the Great Depression until he got us in WW2 and sent the unemployment problem to the European theater to fight and die. Then American manufacturing turned to war production - manned by American woman.

Only when disillusion with the liberal agenda sets in will the voter seriously begin looking at a 3rd party candidate.

[VoteForRonPaul]

McCain's positives:

[LIST]
Has some character and convictions and at time has taken positions not popular within his own party
Give me a break!



Has served with honor
Warmongers like McCain have no honor!



Has criticized Bush admin's conduct of Iraq war, called Rumsfeld one of the worst SoD in history, spoke up against use of torture
Who are you working for? :rolleyes:



Is known commodity (experienced) and will provide steady hand in navigating policies
:rolleyes:



Made a bold choice in VP pick to mobilize evangelicals and women
:rolleyes:



Liberty Star
Get out of here!

[ARealConservative]

McCain.

You don't go around saying that you see the KGB in the eyes of Russia.

You don't talk openly about how we want to cause pain the the Iranian People.

[bill50]

I would say Obama. Only because the "pro free market Bush" has fucked up our country so badly that people will believe anything the "opposition" party will feed to them. Its unbelievable how many people do that support Obama do not know what he stands for on any issues other than "change." Most of his supporters believe that his talk about attacking Iran and backing Israel is only tough talk to appeal to conservatives.

That being said, if McCain is elected, two things can occur. Peopelr can either wake up and smell the bullshit of our government and demand real change, or believe that he is proof that "Republican" ideals do not work. That could push the masses ever further behind a red wave of "democracy" leaving an even larger backlash against the ideals of freedom.

Either way though, we're pretty much screwed.

[libertarian4321]

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a veteran, but I think any President who supports "preemptive war" without having his shit together is far more dangerous than a run of the mill big government Democrat- not that the Republicans are any less "big government" than the Dems these days.

With McCain's support for the insane Iraq war, his hot temper, and the glee in his eye while he sings "bomb bomb bomb Iran", I can only conclude that this guy is one sick son of a bitch and dangerous as Hell to America...

[GunnyFreedom]

no "both" option, couldn't vote. Obama probably slighty more in the traditional sense, but McCain will do more to make it difficult to bring pople into the C4L GOP effort by turning America off of the GOP forever.

[muh_roads]

If you add up the spending I would say Obama. I say that because he is not talking about troop withdraw. He just wants to move the troops from Iraq to Afghanistan and/or Pakistan and/or Iran ALL WHILE doing more domestic spending.

But then I am in the tax bracket that would get more relief under Obama than I would McCain...but then those dollars will be worth less eventually anyway.

It's lose-lose.