Are you with us or against us?

[Bradley in DC]

Posting at Liberty Eagle's request:

It's public record that Dr. Paul's 1988 campaign manager Nadia was convicted of embezzling six figures from a much smaller campaign war chest and went to jail for it. Kent Snyder, Joe Becker, Mike McHugh et al. were all part of her crew--and this one.

We know from that and the newsletters that, well, Dr. Paul is not a micromanager.

Joe Seehusen, I've been told by several of his former LP co-workers, was basically fired from the LP for funneling funds from their account to his "consulting" gigs and friends. Same circles who got lots of money to produce the "he's catching on" ads, etc.

As you pointed out in your Goldwater remembrance post (can't remember off-hand which thread), we know that there are people in politics who get in campaigns either to undermine them or for their own personal profit.

We know that the Congressional office and Lake Jackson thought the official presidential campaign in Arlington was spectacularly incompetently run. We know that many of them very close to Dr. Paul question whether those at the top aimed to win--and that they questioned Lew Moore's loyalty to Dr. Paul from a long time ago.

We know that the incompetents have been most aggressive and motivated only in attacking and lying about their critics. Saying Tom was disgruntled because he was fired (still CoS, last I saw) was a case in point. Whispering lies in the dark about me is another.

I'm saying your efforts to stifle whistleblowers and questioning is misplaced. I'd be happy to expound on all of these in the public forum if you'd like.

[0zzy]

interesting

kent? I dont think so. lew, maybe.

[Bradley in DC]

interesting

kent? I dont think so. lew, maybe.

I don't know anyone who knew Kent who questioned his loyalty to Dr. Paul. His ability to do the job required of him is another thing.

[LibertyEagle]

Posting at Liberty Eagle's request:

That is a lie. Nice weasel move. There is a reason why Ron Paul passed on your application to his campaign. You are a snake.

You attempted to spread this information twice before, but had no takers.

Originally Posted by Bradley in DC
I'm emphatically not pointing a finger at Dr. Paul, but it is public record that there was a lot financial mismanagement--including embezzlement--in his 1988 race (and some of the same characters in this one).
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1634780&postcount=27

No one took you up on it, so you tried again here.


Were you one of the ones defending Nadia Hayes who embarrassed Dr. Paul and damaged his good name? :eek:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1647304&postcount=21post.php?p=1634780&postcount=27

You were dying to get this information out there to make another stab at harming Ron Paul. You made the threat to me privately and I told you to do whatever you wanted. Your actions reflect on you; not me.

[Sally08]

Bradley,

Please see my post http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1652397&postcount=295

The original thread I'm extremely concerned about is:
I was at the Leadership summit and will answer what I can
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=153445

If I understand Torchbearer's posts/replies to me, it appears that CFL will *not* be promoting RP Republicans for November beyond RP's verbal endorsement. All plans are for organizing for the future-

Do the candidates know that? Did the speakers from the Rally know that?

Is that what we grassroots people were led to believe?

I definitely want an accounting of the $3.5 million *this time around*, since I was not previously aware of the "missing millions" until just recently.

Mods: I strongly believe that this thread should be moved out of Grassroots Central due to the likely discussions of legitimate issues.

LE, Josh already indicated that if you don't like it here, you can leave.

Certainly, your posts of the past 5-6 days make you appear to be "losing it".

[nullvalu]

What is the point of this thread? Who is it directed towards? :confused:

[LibertyEagle]

The rats are coming out of the woodwork, for all who have eyes to see.

[constituent]

i'm interested to see where this thread is going.

j. brad rocks it, imo.

[constituent]

The rats are coming out of the woodwork, for all who have eyes to see.

naaah, you've been here (and obvious) for ages.

jeff greenspan the puppeteer too!

go tell it to phyllis.

[Ozwest]

This is sad.

If Dr. Paul couldn't manage his staff, or delegate responsibility, maybe he wasn't the man for the job.

WTF?

[Highland]

Wow

[constituent]

This is sad.

If Dr. Paul couldn't manage his staff, or delegate responsibility, maybe he wasn't the man for the job.

WTF?

Naah, he's still cool.

Politics involves the scum of the earth... you work with what you've got, no doubt.

[LibertyEagle]

i'm interested to see where this thread is going.

j. brad rocks it, imo.

It's obvious. Bradley's intention is to destroy any plans that Ron Paul has and he has been doing that behind the scenes for a very long time.

[pacelli]

Kindly staying out of this since it has nothing to do with me, and hope that others who aren't involved follow my lead on this.

[Highland]

Kindly staying out of this since it has nothing to do with me, and hope that others who aren't involved follow my lead on this.

yep...like I said....:oWOW

[constituent]

It's obvious. Bradley's intention is to destroy any plans that Ron Paul has and he has been doing that behind the scenes for a very long time.

Please, elaborate.

I've seen him defend himself from your crew more than once, i have little doubt that he'd encourage putting it all out there and allowing the readers to judge the facts as they stand.

time to ante-up.

[Ozwest]

Naah, he's still cool.

Politics involves the scum of the earth... you work with what you've got, no doubt.

It brings to mind the frustrations of many a few months ago.

New Hampshire is beginning to make sense... :mad:

[LibertyEagle]

Please, elaborate.

I've seen him defend himself from your crew more than once, i have little doubt that he'd encourage putting it all out there and allowing the readers to judge the facts as they stand.

time to ante-up.

Unlike Bradley, I'm not posting things, said privately.

If the reader is unable to see what Bradley's intentions are, there's nothing else I can say.

[Bradley in DC]

Interesting to see if MsD and LE were moderators in 1988 if they would have quickly banned WRellim and others for exposing the embezzlement then. Anyone questioning nefarious activities is obviously "shitting on Ron", right?

[constituent]

Anyone questioning nefarious activities is obviously "shitting on Ron", right?

clearly.

it's called stinkfinger. we see it often round these parts.

[Sally08]

It's obvious. Bradley's intention is to destroy any plans that Ron Paul has and he has been doing that behind the scenes for a very long time.

LE, you're beginning to sound like a broken record.

Again, Josh posted earlier today that you are free to leave.

Why don't you join CFL, instead of being one of the great dividers on RPFs?

[Highland]

clearly.

it's called stinkfinger. we see it often round these parts.

I just wanna know one thing...seriously, do ya'll expect us not to have any questions, complaints or suggestions for Dr. Paul on his platform...if so, that sucks...because everyone is human, including Dr. Paul.

[Highland]

what is CFL anyway?

[constitutional]

I have no flipping clue what these guys are babbling about.

Ron Paul and his staff can take all the campaign money and flee to Europe for all I care. And you guys can become neocons for all I care. :p No one is stopping me or other million or so that have woken up.

The REVOLUTION CONTINUES!!

[Highland]

I have no flipping clue what these guys are babbling about.

Ron Paul and his staff can take all the campaign money and flee to Europe for all I care. And you guys can become neocons for all I care. :P No one is stopping me or other million or so that have woken up.

The REVOLUTION CONTINUES!!

QFT...nice reality check!

[Sally08]

what is CFL anyway?

You may know it as C4L?

The Campaign For Liberty.

[nullvalu]

what is CFL anyway?

Welcome to the movement (http://www.campaignforliberty.com/) :)

[Cowlesy]

Brad you know how thankful I am for your helping to jumpstart our NYC ballot efforts, but man this is just sixth grade internet bullshit. I've been essentially neutral with all this ridiculous infighting going on as I hoped adults could sort things out, but that doesn't seem to have occurred.

I seriously cannot believe you did this. It seems way outside the scope of your level-headed approaching of things.

:(

And just as a note on the C4L as I've kept pretty quiet on it. I could care less how hard you guys rally against the C4L. But when someone posts a pro-C4L item and you all fire bazookas against it, I don't see why you go all exorcist-child when you post i-hate-C4L stuff and people defend the C4L...just seems like a double-standard to me.

Whatever though. You're adults (most of you). If you want to keep wasting time, I ain't going to stop any of you.

[nullvalu]

You may know it as C4L?

The Campaign For Liberty.

I like C4L better, CFL reads too much like CFR, and that scares me.

[Sally08]

I like C4L better, CFL reads too much like CFR, and that scares me.

And CFL is for Canadian Football League.

Yet again, however, most organizations define their own acronyms/logos.

[bew2005]

I do not post often but read these forums regularly. I do not have a clue what the accusations are but only hope we can quickly come to a resolution and group up. I am so disheartened to see the infighting going on in our small group. We are so few in numbers that we have to be able to work together to get this country back on track. The Constitution Party and Libertarian Party are perfect examples - come on.....get it together, literally. Having just returned from the Rally for the Republic, this is a kick to the gut.

[Bradley in DC]

You are a snake.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22


+ Insulting or personally attacking other users is not allowed by any member. There is very little tolerance for violations, particular for new members. Reason: Insults lead to relational which often result in disruption, which dilute the resources of members and the intent of the forum.

Time to hang up your moderator hat. ;)

Perhaps you'd be better off taking this forum owner's advice and just leave the forum completely.


You were dying to get this information out there to make another stab at harming Ron Paul.

Again, the Nadia Hayes fiasco has been public record for twenty years. Those protecting those that harm Dr. Paul and his good name are the ones doing him harm: Just as Bush's black and white "with us or against" view harms this country.


You made the threat to me privately and I told you to do whatever you wanted. Your actions reflect on you; not me.

I posted my own private words to you.

My actions: I warned our movement a year ago that those running Dr. Paul's campaign were not up to the job we were asking of them. He got 15 national convention delegates. That's what, $2-3 million per delegate? And that's just the money we donated to the official campaign. I know of no way of calculating how many grassroots volunteer hours that would be per delegate.

So we are again at a crossroads. Listen to those who support Dr. Paul and warn of the icebergs ahead and hope we can correct them and win--or we follow you and others who would defend the Nadia Hayes' traitors to our movement.

[Ozwest]

I do recall that Bradley was ringing alarm bells a long time ago.

[Highland]

Welcome to the movement (http://www.campaignforliberty.com/) :)

Ya'll changed the name on me! lol

[user]

Can someone summarize.

[Bradley in DC]

It's obvious. Bradley's intention is to destroy any plans that Ron Paul has and he has been doing that behind the scenes for a very long time.

Translation: Long live Nadia Hayes!

[Highland]

I repeat, what is the line of discussing weaknesses in the campaign or Dr. Paul...we really need to have that clarified, which would alleviate many of the problems we are having.

[Bradley in DC]

I repeat, what is the line of discussing weaknesses in the campaign or Dr. Paul...we really need to have that clarified, which would alleviate many of the problems we are having.

Some of the mods are out of control trying to stifle any independent thinking and questioning. One long time poster was excellent at analyzing the financial records. I sounded the alarm a year ago that the ones in charge of the delegate process for the official campaign (Joe Becker and Mike McHugh) not only didn't know that there were RNC by-laws but argued with me for weeks whether they had to comply with them! There were lots of others who similarly tried to help right the ship.

Now some of these mods are channeling Nadia Hayes: you're either with us or against us! The are killing our forum--and the movement.

[LibertyEagle]

Interesting to see if MsD and LE were moderators in 1988 if they would have quickly banned WRellim and others for exposing the embezzlement then. Anyone questioning nefarious activities is obviously "shitting on Ron", right?

No one is questioning the fact that there was embezzlement in the 1988 campaign. There are news stories for people to read about it on Google, if they choose. From what I read, when it was realized that this embezzlement was going on, the woman was arrested and put in jail. That is not the issue. While disgusting, this type of thing apparently happens in a lot of campaigns. Which is also readily apparent by checking Google.

What you insinuated however, Bradley, was that there are current members of the campaign/C4L that were involved in that embezzlement. And you imply that with NO substantiating facts. If those people you named were involved in the 1988 embezzlement, there should have been charges made. If so, do you have those ready to show? Or, are you just gossiping? Again.

[Highland]

have you tried to report it to Dr. Paul?

[Highland]

Still what is the line on constructive criticism that we can all live with?

[aravoth]

Brad you know how thankful I am for your helping to jumpstart our NYC ballot efforts, but man this is just sixth grade internet bullshit. I've been essentially neutral with all this ridiculous infighting going on as I hoped adults could sort things out, but that doesn't seem to have occurred.

I seriously cannot believe you did this. It seems way outside the scope of your level-headed approaching of things.

:(

And just as a note on the C4L as I've kept pretty quiet on it. I could care less how hard you guys rally against the C4L. But when someone posts a pro-C4L item and you all fire bazookas against it, I don't see why you go all exorcist-child when you post i-hate-C4L stuff and people defend the C4L...just seems like a double-standard to me.

Whatever though. You're adults (most of you). If you want to keep wasting time, I ain't going to stop any of you.

This.

Brad, pull the shrink wrap off your nuts.

[Bradley in DC]

This is sad.

If Dr. Paul couldn't manage his staff, or delegate responsibility, maybe he wasn't the man for the job.

WTF?

He delegated responsibility to those not up to the job when expectations changed from just an educational endeavor to what we wanted--a campaign aimed at winning the nomination. And there were some Nadia Hayes-types too.

[Bradley in DC]

What you insinuated however, Bradley, was that there are current members of the campaign/C4L that were involved in that embezzlement. And you imply that with NO substantiating facts. If those people you named were involved in the 1988 embezzlement, there should have been charges made. If so, do you have those ready to show? Or, are you just gossiping? Again.

I am saying that those having worked for--or are working for--Dr. Paul are not above questioning. I sounded alarms. Some chose to defer blindly to the campaign, their "stealth" strategy, that they knew what they were doing. They didn't. Had they not been so hostile to the grassroots who knows how far we could have gone.

Pointing out mistakes of those who work for Dr. Paul is not "shitting on Ron" nor disloyal but the only way we can move forward...realistically.

[Bossobass]

This.

Brad, pull the shrink wrap off your nuts.

This + 1.

Brad, you're an idiot.

Bosso

[Jaykzo]

This + 1.

Brad, you're an idiot.

Bosso


If this is the way we treat one of the hardest working members of the Revolution, then we will have a long way to go before our goals are accomplished.

[Lord Xar]

If this is the way we treat one of the hardest working members of the Revolution, then we will have a long way to go before our goals are accomplished.

So Ron Paul is not above reproach, but Bradley is? Who has worked harder than the man himself - yet Bradley at every turn is in some way creating negative associations with him or by proxy - those very close to him.

I mean, it appears to me - and I could be wrong, but isn't Bradley doing to LE what he has done to most everyone in Ron Pauls' HQ staff?

Who knows Bradley, you might be right - but your delivery always begs questions, and concerns. I see alot of truth in some of the things you have said, I do - but I sense a motive i am not comfortable with.

I make no bones about it. I like LE. I think her concerns and forceful nature is because she feels so deeply about the movement, and Ron Paul himself.

I am an easy going guy and I am starting to get annoyed.

[Lord Xar]

I am saying that those having worked for--or are working for--Dr. Paul are not above questioning. I sounded alarms. Some chose to defer blindly to the campaign, their "stealth" strategy, that they knew what they were doing. They didn't. Had they not been so hostile to the grassroots who knows how far we could have gone.

Pointing out mistakes of those who work for Dr. Paul is not "shitting on Ron" nor disloyal but the only way we can move forward...realistically.

Ok. I can get onboard with this. But what now? Why now? Are you hoping that we turn away from the Campaign for Liberty with the fears you have installed in many of us? What?

Lets clear the table and wash the dishes. What now? What is the motive, what is 'YOUR' plan and what you hope to happen as we move forward?

[Roxi]

WHAT THE HELL is going on here? the forums i love, and hold a highly regarded addiction to is going to SHIT, and you guys are making me CUSS now.... GET OVER this 3rd grad BULLSHIT.... my 6 year old is more mature then some of you

[Bradley in DC]

Ok. I can get onboard with this. But what now? Why now? Are you hoping that we turn away from the Campaign for Liberty with the fears you have installed in many of us? What?

Lets clear the table and wash the dishes. What now? What is the motive, what is 'YOUR' plan and what you hope to happen as we move forward?

Now: Dr. Paul did not get the nomination, it's after the fact. No one can say clearing the air was me derailing his nomination quest. (I've hardly said anything of CFL.)

Motive: There are some who have an attitude that blind faith in staffers must not be questioned. I'm pointing out that that attitude undermines our movement--and hoping we can now move forward like adults for a change.

My motivations have always been to protect and defend Dr. Paul and his ideals (same as the Congressional office and his long time political machine in Lake Jackson)--even from interlopers. ;)

[Anti Federalist]

Am I understanding this shit correctly?

WRellim was banned for calling into question the accounting of C4L???

And that "insider deals" were the reason for the atrocious "He's catching on I'm telling ya ads"???

God I hate freakin' politics

[Truth Warrior]

Hidden History: Where Organized Crime and Government Meet

http://www.lewrockwell.com/burris/burris10.html

[SnappleLlama]

I need more coffee for this....what's with all the negative threads lately? it should be one of the most positive weeks in recent memory for the revolution, considering the awesomeness of the rally and ronstock, etc.

Caffeeeiiineee.....

[Truth Warrior]

Am I understanding this shit correctly?

WRellim was banned for calling into question the accounting of C4L???

And that "insider deals" were the reason for the atrocious "He's catching on I'm telling ya ads"???

God I hate freakin' politics
Welcome aboard. ;) :D

[Truth Warrior]

I need more coffee for this....what's with all the negative threads lately? it should be one of the most positive weeks in recent memory for the revolution, considering the awesomeness of the rally and ronstock, etc.

Caffeeeiiineee..... Did you happen to hear ANY NEGATIVES at the rally, ronstock, etc.? :D

[constituent]

Welcome aboard. ;) :D

4reel

[Anti Federalist]

Welcome aboard. ;) :D

WTF???

I've got those threads going in Hot Topics trying to find out why, I thought he might have threatened to knock somebody's block off or something.

Now I seem to find out it was some sort of back room backstabbing over legit questions???

:mad:

[constituent]

WTF???

I've got those threads going in Hot Topics trying to find out why, I thought he might have threatened to knock somebody's block off or something.

Now I seem to find out it was some sort of back room backstabbing over legit questions???

:mad:

glad to see you back though.

[Truth Warrior]

WTF???

I've got those threads going in Hot Topics trying to find out why, I thought he might have threatened to knock somebody's block off or something.

Now I seem to find out it was some sort of back room backstabbing over legit questions???

:mad: I was simply referring to your, "God I hate freakin' politics.", last line of your post. ;) :)

[Anti Federalist]

I was simply referring to your, "God I hate freakin' politics.", last line of your post. ;) :)

Hah! I thought you might have been "in the know" in this soap opera.

But still, WTF?

[Truth Warrior]

Hah! I thought you might have been "in the know" in this soap opera.

But still, WTF? The RPF is simply another small part of the ongoing "soap opera", called politics. ;)

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of, "As the BS Spins." :D

[rpfan2008]

----


There are going to be some people on this forum that are most likely *not* going to enjoy this forum posting... :)

COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum..

There are several techniques for the control and manipulation of a internet forum no matter what, or who is on it. We will go over each technique and demonstrate that only a minimal number of operatives can be used to eventually and effectively gain a control of a 'uncontrolled forum.'

Technique #1 - 'FORUM SLIDING'

If a very sensitive posting of a critical nature has been posted on a forum - it can be quickly removed from public view by 'forum sliding.' In this technique a number of unrelated posts are quietly prepositioned on the forum and allowed to 'age.' Each of these misdirectional forum postings can then be called upon at will to trigger a 'forum slide.' The second requirement is that several fake accounts exist, which can be called upon, to ensure that this technique is not exposed to the public. To trigger a 'forum slide' and 'flush' the critical post out of public view it is simply a matter of logging into each account both real and fake and then 'replying' to prepositined postings with a simple 1 or 2 line comment. This brings the unrelated postings to the top of the forum list, and the critical posting 'slides' down the front page, and quickly out of public view. Although it is difficult or impossible to censor the posting it is now lost in a sea of unrelated and unuseful postings. By this means it becomes effective to keep the readers of the forum reading unrelated and non-issue items.

Technique #2 - 'CONSENSUS CRACKING'

A second highly effective technique (which you can see in operation all the time at www.abovetopsecret.com) is 'consensus cracking.' To develop a consensus crack, the following technique is used. Under the guise of a fake account a posting is made which looks legitimate and is towards the truth is made - but the critical point is that it has a VERY WEAK PREMISE without substantive proof to back the posting. Once this is done then under alternative fake accounts a very strong position in your favour is slowly introduced over the life of the posting. It is IMPERATIVE that both sides are initially presented, so the uninformed reader cannot determine which side is the truth. As postings and replies are made the stronger 'evidence' or disinformation in your favour is slowly 'seeded in.' Thus the uninformed reader will most like develop the same position as you, and if their position is against you their opposition to your posting will be most likely dropped. However in some cases where the forum members are highly educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked postings, you can then 'abort' the consensus cracking by initiating a 'forum slide.'

Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION'

Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.

Technique #4 - 'INFORMATION COLLECTION'

Information collection is also a very effective method to determine the psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intelligence that can be used against them. In this technique in a light and positive environment a 'show you mine so me yours' posting is initiated. From the number of replies and the answers that are provided much statistical information can be gathered. An example is to post your 'favourite weapon' and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have. In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. This same method can be used by posing as one of the form members and posting your favourite 'technique of operation.' From the replies various methods that the group utilizes can be studied and effective methods developed to stop them from their activities.

Technique #5 - 'ANGER TROLLING'

Statistically, there is always a percentage of the forum posters who are more inclined to violence. In order to determine who these individuals are, it is a requirement to present a image to the forum to deliberately incite a strong psychological reaction. From this the most violent in the group can be effectively singled out for reverse IP location and possibly local enforcement tracking. To accomplish this only requires posting a link to a video depicting a local police officer massively abusing his power against a very innocent individual. Statistically of the million or so police officers in America there is always one or two being caught abusing there powers and the taping of the activity can be then used for intelligence gathering purposes - without the requirement to 'stage' a fake abuse video. This method is extremely effective, and the more so the more abusive the video can be made to look. Sometimes it is useful to 'lead' the forum by replying to your own posting with your own statement of violent intent, and that you 'do not care what the authorities think!!' inflammation. By doing this and showing no fear it may be more effective in getting the more silent and self-disciplined violent intent members of the forum to slip and post their real intentions. This can be used later in a court of law during prosecution.

Technique #6 - 'GAINING FULL CONTROL'

It is important to also be harvesting and continually maneuvering for a forum moderator position. Once this position is obtained, the forum can then be effectively and quietly controlled by deleting unfavourable postings - and one can eventually steer the forum into complete failure and lack of interest by the general public. This is the 'ultimate victory' as the forum is no longer participated with by the general public and no longer useful in maintaining their freedoms. Depending on the level of control you can obtain, you can deliberately steer a forum into defeat by censoring postings, deleting memberships, flooding, and or accidentally taking the forum offline. By this method the forum can be quickly killed. However it is not always in the interest to kill a forum as it can be converted into a 'honey pot' gathering center to collect and misdirect newcomers and from this point be completely used for your control for your agenda purposes.

CONCLUSION

Remember these techniques are only effective if the forum participants DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM. Once they are aware of these techniques the operation can completely fail, and the forum can become uncontrolled. At this point other avenues must be considered such as initiating a false legal precidence to simply have the forum shut down and taken offline. This is not desirable as it then leaves the enforcement agencies unable to track the percentage of those in the population who always resist attempts for control against them. Many other techniques can be utilized and developed by the individual and as you develop further techniques of infiltration and control it is imperative to share then with HQ.

[MelissaWV]

"In-fighting" isn't necessarily a bad thing. The elephants and jackasses have been doing it for ages, but the difference is that they then tolerate those "fringe" people into their midst. In the case of this movement, the "fringe" is made up of people who don't see Ron Paul as some angelic savior sent from heaven to fling lightning and melt the opposition with lasers from his eyes. The "extreme fringe" is made of people who question Dr. Paul, but see him as the best hope given the other choices out there in the political spectrum.

ONE OF the problems with this movement is that we somehow do not tolerate those two groups, even though their votes count just as much, and they may be in a great position to help us "streamline" the message and get it out to many people.

What's this got to do with the price of tea in China? It's important to scrutinize why on earth a man with millions still in the bank, who got pretty good numbers in a few states, did not put forth better "mainstream" materials to get exposure. Why the awful commercials? We've all seen a flood of YouTubes that were pretty great, and with only the price of a lawyer (check those things for copyright infringements, etc) and the airtime, those commercials could have been out there from the official campaign. There were contradictory signals from the campaign throughout the whole effort. There were times when the grassroots was lauded, and other times when it seemed we must smell. The "mainstream" people in the movement, when they existed in reasonable numbers, tried to point out that the Truthers were bad. The Truthers pointed out that the "mainstreamers" were blind. Split split split, and I'm not talking about recently. I'm talking about over a year ago now.

This infighting, as it stands, is a byproduct of people that are STILL at very different levels of education on the process, some of which still have no clue how they'd become a delegate, or how to call a point of order, or how to infiltrate without looking like a circus freak (not naming names there...). I don't think anything's above constructive criticism, least of all the campaign, when there are some very valid concerns out there about managing of funds. Scrutiny is "allowed" to some extent on here towards fellow members, and the ventures of those members. My only concerns in the past have been with the motivations of those who do this all in public, rather than resolving issues privately with the person involved. I can see how that's not really possible with allegations of this size against a national campaign.

However, that leads into my last point. I love ya Bradley. You're a very nice person, and I've spoken to you, and you rendered me a great favor not that terribly long ago. I know you had good intentions and clear thought in making the original post. I know what it's like to see someone chanting the "with us or against us" mantra, and the proverbial red flag leaping up, because it IS a Bushism. However, in this case, you posted a portion of a private conversation, and that's been rampant on here lately. That also smells like a Bushism to a large extent, no offense. I think the point could have been made without LE's name pulled into it, regardless of what you think of them. I still love ya.

If disagreement isn't allowed... we should all learn these fascinating lyrics, anyhow, and drink up some nice KoolAid...

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someones singing lord, kumbaya
Someones singing lord, kumbaya
Someones singing lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbayah

Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someones crying, lord, kumbaya
Someones crying, lord, kumbaya
Someones crying, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someones praying, lord, kumbaya
Someones praying, lord, kumbaya
Someones praying, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someones sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Someones sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Someones sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya:rolleyes:

[New York For Paul]

So Ron Paul is not above reproach, but Bradley is? Who has worked harder than the man himself - yet Bradley at every turn is in some way creating negative associations with him or by proxy - those very close to him.

I mean, it appears to me - and I could be wrong, but isn't Bradley doing to LE what he has done to most everyone in Ron Pauls' HQ staff?

Who knows Bradley, you might be right - but your delivery always begs questions, and concerns. I see alot of truth in some of the things you have said, I do - but I sense a motive i am not comfortable with.

I make no bones about it. I like LE. I think her concerns and forceful nature is because she feels so deeply about the movement, and Ron Paul himself.

I am an easy going guy and I am starting to get annoyed.

There were plenty of people on Ron Paul's staff who Bradley did not go after. From those of us in the Arlington/DC area who volunteered or worked at the main HQ, it was a well known fact/secret about the level of problems going on with the HQ.

Actions were taken quietly to try to change things, but ultimately they were not successful.

[Bradley in DC]

However, in this case, you posted a portion of a private conversation, and that's been rampant on here lately. That also smells like a Bushism to a large extent, no offense.

No worries on the favor, we're all on the same side--I would have done the same for LE under similar circumstances.

The only part of the private conversation I posted were my own words. :cool:

[klamath]

So here is the gist of it. RP surounds himself with embezzlers, racists and crooks. He talks a good line, votes no in congress but his real ambition is to steal money and promote white racism. RP only wanted to be president so him and his goons could rob fort knox. He set up C4L to skim money from private donations. Boy have I been had. Now I feel like I did after believing "no nation building". Good God what a bunch of Trash I'm voting for McCain/Palin as at least she is cute.

And Bradley if you think I am voting for tha slimy used car salesman Barr you can think again.

[Truth Warrior]

Hidden History: Where Organized Crime and Government Meet

http://www.lewrockwell.com/burris/burris10.html

[aravoth]

No worries on the favor, we're all on the same side--I would have done the same for LE under similar circumstances.

The only part of the private conversation I posted were my own words. :cool:

I guess this thread is going exactly where you hoped it would.

[acptulsa]

Motive: There are some who have an attitude that blind faith in staffers must not be questioned. I'm pointing out that that attitude undermines our movement--and hoping we can now move forward like adults for a change.

Bradley, you are a smart enough guy to know that dredging crap up right now is a politically incompetent and ignorant thing to do. I don't see where dragging LE into this means anything or adds anything to your point (though I'd read an explanation). And while I want the CFL's finances to be honest, I don't know why you would be surprised that anyone and/or everyone here would look at this tripe and call it anything but an attempt to keeep the cats from forming a powerful herd.

[hard@work]

The ones who work the hardest to defeat division while maintaining their personal integrity should be the ones that are listened to the most.

[MelissaWV]

The ones who work the hardest to defeat division while maintaining their personal integrity should be the ones that are listened to the most.

I'm going to pretend this refers to me, and strut :D

[BarryDonegan]

please put this in hot topics. how is this going to help us elect future liberty candidates.

[FindLiberty]

As I read through this thread, I was happy to see it going right where I wanted it to go to... We need to try to avoid personal attacks, power trips and bickering.


Originally Posted by hard@work
The ones who work the hardest to defeat division while maintaining their personal integrity should be the ones that are listened to the most.

No doubt power attracts undesirables and the power of this movement will bring on opportunists and saboteurs sent in here by tyrants.

Our own honest house cleaning and airing dirty laundry may be required, but try to stay positive. Learn (expose and stay one step ahead next time).

Push to make progress towards the goal of Liberty.

Education - Promote truth and free market solutions. Expose corruption, lies and waste in government (restrictive/bad laws) or the defects in central planning. Use lots of harsh daylight.

Activism - Elect Liberty minded candidates, work to overturn bad laws and throw destructive lawmakers out of office (pry their dirty hands off of the nation’s monetary inflation teat).

[MsDoodahs]

I'm going to pretend this refers to me, and strut :D

:D

[nayjevin]

you are a smart enough guy to know that dredging crap up right now is a politically incompetent and ignorant thing to do... I don't know why you would be surprised that anyone and/or everyone here would look at this tripe and call it anything but an attempt to keep the cats from forming a powerful herd.

This quote could get alot of mileage reposted around this forum. :)

[kaleidoscope eyes]

WHAT THE HELL is going on here? the forums i love, and hold a highly regarded addiction to is going to SHIT, and you guys are making me CUSS now.... GET OVER this 3rd grad BULLSHIT.... my 6 year old is more mature then some of you

ditto this sentiment.

me so cunfuzed!

wtf is going on around here?:confused:

sure there's always been arguements and disagreements and weird topics, ever since I first came here, that's cool. the past two or three days has been like bizarro world and I hardly recognize the place. Is it just me? I expected after the rally there would be a new exciting energy and a new push to advance the movement. I feel crestfallen and disappointed that this place may have been infected beyond hope and I'm not gonna know who is on the up and up (I typically have a good intuition for this). Whatever this ugly shift is, I hope it passes quickly. I hate to get mushy, but I love this place and all you budding raggle taggle Patriots, I would hate to see it fall apart.

[acptulsa]

Patriots, I would hate to see it fall apart.

Well, there are two things different now. Those who couldn't make the rally are starting to get over the disappointment. And those who could are getting back to the normal routine now--which means we're handy to help pwn the trolls!

[constituent]

I feel crestfallen and disappointed that this place may have been infected beyond hope

It's not. "Don't let the man get you down."



and I'm not gonna know who is on the up and up (I typically have a good intuition for this).

you are and you know you are, all else is fluff.



Whatever this ugly shift is, I hope it passes quickly.

It will.



I hate to get mushy, but I love this place and all you budding raggle taggle Patriots, I would hate to see it fall apart.

Amen, it won't.

[kaleidoscope eyes]

Well, there are two things different now. Those who couldn't make the rally are starting to get over the disappointment. And those who could are getting back to the normal routine now--which means we're handy to help pwn the trolls!

LOL tulsa, box them about the ears a couple times for me then!
I choose to ignore them typically, no fuel, no fire type of thing.
Is this the "Immature playground troll phase?" lol

[Truth Warrior]

ditto this sentiment.

me so cunfuzed!

wtf is going on around here?:confused:

sure there's always been arguements and disagreements and weird topics, ever since I first came here, that's cool. the past two or three days has been like bizarro world and I hardly recognize the place. Is it just me? I expected after the rally there would be a new exciting energy and a new push to advance the movement. I feel crestfallen and disappointed that this place may have been infected beyond hope and I'm not gonna know who is on the up and up (I typically have a good intuition for this). Whatever this ugly shift is, I hope it passes quickly. I hate to get mushy, but I love this place and all you budding raggle taggle Patriots, I would hate to see it fall apart.

Perhaps this IS advancing the movement. ;) Or maybe it's just a R4R HIGH, HANGOVER post partum depression. :D

[Bradley in DC]

Bradley, you are a smart enough guy to know that dredging crap up right now is a politically incompetent and ignorant thing to do. I don't see where dragging LE into this means anything or adds anything to your point (though I'd read an explanation). And while I want the CFL's finances to be honest, I don't know why you would be surprised that anyone and/or everyone here would look at this tripe and call it anything but an attempt to keeep the cats from forming a powerful herd.

When would have been the right time to dredge it up? (and this is the just the tip of the iceberg from what I've heard from the campaign staffers unhappy with its leadership) During the primaries?

My disagreement with LE and MsD was their attempt to stifle questioning and constructive criticism and to point out that we need to be watchdogs if we are to succeed. I raised questions last year. Most said, "give them the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure they have a plan to win" (afterall, the campaign said last year, give us X dollars and we'll win Iowa and New Hampshire, remember?) I don't consider the final delegate totals to be a "success" (but I'm considered critical :rolleyes:).

Dr. Paul has some successful organizations (the Congressional office and his Lake Jackson machine that got him re-elected). Obviously his medical practice was well-run or presumably we would have heard of malpractice stories, etc.

This is NOT an attack on Dr. Paul but a clarion call for us to be watchful of small, closed cliques that cling to each other in their hostility to the grassroots. Dr. Paul is a strong supporter of openness, transparency and accountability. Whistleblowers are an important tool for effectiveness and against waste, fraud and abuse.

There was a constant stream of complaints about the Arlington HQ staffers. That's not a bad thing--we need to know what we're doing well and where we can improve. The problem was to attack and (falsely) try to discredit people for "being on the wrong side" and other bs.

We need to ask if what we got at the National nominating convention is really the best we could have done. If not, what should we be doing differently?

[Bradley in DC]

Perhaps this IS advancing the movement. ;)

It should be. Creative destruction and all that.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

[Rhys]

I don't trust anyone who brags about being in DC.

[Truth Warrior]

It should be. Creative destruction and all that.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Intelligent people usually learn much more from their failures than they do from their successes. ;)

[Bradley in DC]

Intelligent people usually learn much more from their failures than they do from their successes. ;)

I guess that precludes two of the mods. :p

[Bradley in DC]

I don't trust anyone who brags about being in DC.

Who's bragging about that?! :eek: :o :cool:

and a healthy skepticism is a good thing--that's my whole point, actually. :)

[lynnf]

When would have been the right time to dredge it up? (and this is the just the tip of the iceberg from what I've heard from the campaign staffers unhappy with its leadership) During the primaries?

My disagreement with LE and MsD was their attempt to stifle questioning and constructive criticism and to point out that we need to be watchdogs if we are to succeed. I raised questions last year. Most said, "give them the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure they have a plan to win" (afterall, the campaign said last year, give us X dollars and we'll win Iowa and New Hampshire, remember?) I don't consider the final delegate totals to be a "success" (but I'm considered critical :rolleyes:).

Dr. Paul has some successful organizations (the Congressional office and his Lake Jackson machine that got him re-elected). Obviously his medical practice was well-run or presumably we would have heard of malpractice stories, etc.

This is NOT an attack on Dr. Paul but a clarion call for us to be watchful of small, closed cliques that cling to each other in their hostility to the grassroots. Dr. Paul is a strong supporter of openness, transparency and accountability. Whistleblowers are an important tool for effectiveness and against waste, fraud and abuse.

There was a constant stream of complaints about the Arlington HQ staffers. That's not a bad thing--we need to know what we're doing well and where we can improve. The problem was to attack and (falsely) try to discredit people for "being on the wrong side" and other bs.

We need to ask if what we got at the National nominating convention is really the best we could have done. If not, what should we be doing differently?

I'm not attacking RP, either, but the ultimate responsibility is his. I've been told he was informed of some things that he chose not to act on. even if he hadn't been told, the ultimate responsibility is still his as with any commander. remember the submarine commander whose sub struck the Japanese fishing ship (and other captains that had to take the bullet when their ships were damaged)? no matter the reason they had to take the blame -- it comes with the territory. so there is where the true blame lies.

so you ask the question about what should be done differently. some of it's already being done -- switching from the campaign to CFL. now, if the same people that were in charge/involved at the campaign are in charge/involved at CFL, we may get more of the same, so any that may be incompetent or untrustworthy should be exposed. if RP chooses not to act again, God help us.

lynn

p.s. oh, and about the vote totals at the convention -- we saw the extent of skullduggery the other side will go to in order to win. do you think if we actually had 50% + of the vote they would have let us win? I don't think so. it would have been even more of the same like what happened in NV. so counting vote totals in the face of such cheating doesn't produce any meaningful reckoning

[Rhys]

Who's bragging about that?! :eek: :o :cool:

and a healthy skepticism is a good thing--that's my whole point, actually. :)

naw, that's a beltway spin response. Too much fun and emotion and acknowledgment and compliments. You're a plant and you're full of shit.

[itshappening]

Iowa, in my opinion, was sabotaged. loads of people suspected so at the time

logically we should have had a much better showing due to the small amount of voters and caucus nature of the process. this heavily favors grass roots organization, like it did for Huckabee and Obama but oddly not for Paul.

Brad is right to raise these issues

[Rhys]

Iowa, in my opinion, was sabotaged. loads of people suspected so at the time

logically we should have had a much better showing due to the small amount of voters and caucus nature of the process. this heavily favors grass roots organization, like it did for Huckabee and Obama but oddly not for Paul.

Brad is right to raise these issues

iowa was sabotaged... by a teenaged supporter who destroyed the database of canvased supporters. We had no organization there on election day as a result because we had no names.

[MsDoodahs]

iowa was sabotaged... by a teenaged supporter who destroyed the database of canvased supporters. We had no organization there on election day as a result because we had no names.

Was the young man just stupid or did he not get his way on something?

I seem to recall something about he didn't get the credit he felt he deserved for what he believed was his contribution?

Some people will react that way - sabotage something they claim to support - when they don't get their way.

[torchbearer]

Was the young man just stupid or did he not get his way on something?

I seem to recall something about he didn't get the credit he felt he deserved for what he believed was his contribution?

Some people will react that way - sabotage something they claim to support - when they don't get their way.

You bring up a good point.. something that was hammered home at the training for the precinct leadership summit.
"This isn't about you."
When it comes to representing the interest of your neighbors, it isn't about you.
When it comes to being a grassroots lobbyist for your neighborhood, it isn't about you.
And when it comes to reclaiming our constitutional republic, it isn't about you.

If you are doing this for personal recognition and reward, you are here for the wrong reason.
If you sabotage your work because someone didn't get on their knees before you... you are here for the wrong reason.

If you are here to castrate the people trying to provide the tools for our success you are here for the wrong reasons.

If you fit into the above categories... you know who you are... you are here for the wrong reasons.

If you focus isn't a positive one, you are here for the wrong reasons.

I like bradley, and i love him as a human who claims to want liberty... but right now, he is here for the wrong reasons.

[Bradley in DC]

I like bradley, and i love him as a human who claims to want liberty... but right now, he is here for the wrong reasons.

You know my reasons? Interesting, please enlighten me...

[Bradley in DC]

iowa was sabotaged... by a teenaged supporter who destroyed the database of canvased supporters. We had no organization there on election day as a result because we had no names.

The more important question, if there is something to this story (I have no idea), rests with the management of the campaign itself and the decision to put our entire campaign in the hands of one someone (regardless of their age). Data systems rely on backups and redundancies. These are top level problems.

There are lots of reasons we lost Iowa and NH, including organization, counter-productive ads, etc.

[New York For Paul]

This is the perfect time to raise questions as the new organization is getting off the ground. If you want C4L to be around a few years from now then you had better get a good foundation of good people running it. Otherwise it will end up with nothing.

For instance, Ron Paul just said they spent millions in Minnesota. I hope it was money well spent, but the march on Washington was done for forty thousand dollars.

Did they spend too much? Who knows. But it would be nice to have an accounting.

During the campaign several people called Ron Paul's congressional office in disgust, after seeing how supporters were being ignored at the campaign office. That would be unanswered email, letters and phone calls. You won't be able to win Iowa or New Hampshire if you ignore your volunteers who are working to get out the vote and if you ignore the donors who finance the staff.

This is just basic courtesy and basic politics 101. The official campaign couldn't event get that right.

If a congressional office ignores their constituents, they will soon be booted from office. In fact many of the most controversial Congressmen and Senators stay elected by providing outstanding constituent service, winning over members of the opposing party.

Senator Jesse Helms was always targeted by democrats, but alway won reelection by responding to constituents. Even Democrats were impressed with Helms.

So we have a right to question the organization. It will keep them on their toes. Competition will hopefully propell C4L and other grassroots groups to more effectiveness.

We are the customers and we have a right to demand adequate service.

Many orgnaizations act as if the customer doesn't matter, like the Federal Government. Hopefully, C4L would be responsive to the needs of those it serves and those who fund it.

[jcarcinogen]

If there was embezzlement in the LP in 1988, I hope the party is more sound and worthy of its supporters today.

I never liked the way Paul's campaign dropped the ball on NH and spent money frugally using 'evangelical' techniques...

If the LibertyPAC exists, what exactly is the purpose of the CFL beyond its 'multimillion dollar' rally to show to the grassroots? The concept of PAC's on 'local politics' is an ethical gray area to me anyway.

Bob Barr 2008.

[torchbearer]

You know my reasons? Interesting, please enlighten me...

not your specific reason, but it doesn't fit in the positive categories.
You enlighten me, because I don't understand the end game you are looking for...
perhaps if you educate me to your enlightened ways, I will join you in your crusade.

[New York For Paul]

Imagine if the Ron Paul Campaign had spent the money on the Manchester Arena for several days and had invited everybody to New Hampshire to help out. He might have done a little better.

The other campaigns had huge volunteer operations in Manchester and Ron Paul had this tiny office in Concord. Obama had eight to ten offices around the state.

Clinton had several offices around the state and one huge office in New Hampshire with hundreds of college students bussed in from around the east coast.

[constituent]

Clinton had several offices around the state and one huge office in New Hampshire with hundreds of college students bussed in from around the east coast.

what? what? what?

that sounds like they were.... (gasp).... trying to win?

the audacity!

[SLSteven]

Are you with us or against us?

with

[Bradley in DC]

not your specific reason, but it doesn't fit in the positive categories.
You enlighten me, because I don't understand the end game you are looking for...
perhaps if you educate me to your enlightened ways, I will join you in your crusade.

I'm really, really bad at pop culture analogies, but would this be Monday morning quarterbacking? :o

The campaign is over, Dr. Paul lost (despite all of our best efforts--and for a wide variety of reasons).

Now IS the time for examining what we did right--and what didn't go well. Some (including two moderators here) still cling to the "dissent is unpatriotic" view and have been personally attacking and banning those who don't put blind faith in select human beings (we all have faults, we all fail at times).

That attitude is destroying the forum (and, me thinks, why Josh suggested one not let the door hit her on the way out)--and the movement. When a moderator puts in her signature personal attacks against another forum member, you know they're not here for the forum or the movement. Dr. Paul himself never makes personal attacks.

You're a "divider" if you don't agree that it's a delusional claim that there simultaneously had to be a brokered convention and that Dr. Paul had support from a majority of the delegates (the definition of a brokered convention is that no one candidate has majority support).

More broadly, if our movement is to succeed (and what we got from this official campaign was failure, plain and simple), we need to ask hard questions and make honest and open analyzes.

Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity. If anything, learning to copy what the official Ron Paul presidential campaign--emphatically not the successful congressional ones--is a recipe for more of what we got. We deserve better.

[torchbearer]

I'm really, really bad at pop culture analogies, but would this be Monday morning quarterbacking? :o

The campaign is over, Dr. Paul lost (despite all of our best efforts--and for a wide variety of reasons).

Now IS the time for examining what we did right--and what didn't go well. Some (including two moderators here) still cling to the "dissent is unpatriotic" view and have been personally attacking and banning those who don't put blind faith in select human beings (we all have faults, we all fail at times).

That attitude is destroying the forum (and, me thinks, why Josh suggested one not let the door hit her on the way out)--and the movement. When a moderator puts in her signature personal attacks against another forum member, you know they're not here for the forum or the movement. Dr. Paul himself never makes personal attacks.

You're a "divider" if you don't agree that it's a delusional claim that there simultaneously had to be a brokered convention and that Dr. Paul had support from a majority of the delegates (the definition of a brokered convention is that no one candidate has majority support).

More broadly, if our movement is to succeed (and what we got from this official campaign was failure, plain and simple), we need to ask hard questions and make honest and open analyzes.

Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity. If anything, learning to copy what the official Ron Paul presidential campaign--emphatically not the successful congressional ones--is a recipe for more of what we got. We deserve better.

what is the endgame? what changes are you trying to make with the information you put on the public forum?

[constituent]

I'm really, really bad at pop culture analogies, but would this be Monday morning quarterbacking? :o

Naah, i'll show you Monday morning quarterbacking



Now IS the time for examining what we did right--and what didn't go well.


Person A says:


Ewww, he really slipped on the caps lock there.


Person B says:

Yes indeed person A.


For the proper emphasis, he really should have gone with capsing the definite article.

Such a shame...

^note comma crazy

See, Monday morning quarterbacking is over pointless shit like football games and grammar. What you're talking about is more important things like moving forward, examining the issues that have proven hinderances, "changing course™" AND sUcceeding.

Revolutions are for spinning your wheels (though they always make for one hell of a marketing ploy... ask Ronald Reagan and Comrade Lenin--there is less difference than you think).

[Rhys]

You're a "divider" if you don't agree that it's a delusional claim that there simultaneously had to be a brokered convention and that Dr. Paul had support from a majority of the delegates (the definition of a brokered convention is that no one candidate has majority support).


we couldn't even keep the lights on in NV and you think we were winning?

[Bradley in DC]

we couldn't even keep the lights on in NV and you think we were winning?

I, for one, was and am hugely impressed with the movement Dr. Paul launched, yes.

Had the campaign been competently led, there were great opportunities.

McCain? Really? That is the best our party could nominate? :eek:

[Bradley in DC]

what is the endgame? what changes are you trying to make with the information you put on the public forum?

Start a process of critical examination--not the demonizing and banning and personal attacks on those asking the right questions like some mods are in the habit of doing.

One leads to success, the other failure.

(insert pithy and witty pop culture reference here)

[Rhys]

I, for one, was and am hugely impressed with the movement Dr. Paul launched, yes.

Had the campaign been competently led, there were great opportunities.

McCain? Really? That is the best our party could nominate? :eek:

I didn't ask if you were impressed. Did you think we were winning?

[Bradley in DC]

I didn't ask if you were impressed. Did you think we were winning?

There were scenarios where we could have broken out from the pack, yes.

Most REPUBLICANS in Iowa wanted the US out of Iraq in six months.

The most sought after characteristic that NH independents and Republicans wanted was an "independent leader" as the nominee.

Look at the reaction that Sarah Palin is getting (not that I would have known that then, obviously). There was a pent up demand for a new leader who provides a fresh start from Bush and could energize the grassroots.

Sound like anyone?

[Rhys]

There were scenarios where we could have broken out from the pack, yes.

Most REPUBLICANS in Iowa wanted the US out of Iraq in six months.

The most sought after characteristic that NH independents and Republicans wanted was an "independent leader" as the nominee.

Look at the reaction that Sarah Palin is getting (not that I would have known that then, obviously). There was a pent up demand for a new leader who provides a fresh start from Bush and could energize the grassroots.

Sound like anyone?

you're reaching... RP 'blames america' remember?

[Bradley in DC]

you're reaching... RP 'blames america' remember?

D'oh! I forgot! :p

[klamath]

You guys bumping old threads to show how forward thinking you were two years ago. You are newbies!

[Anti Federalist]

So here is the gist of it. RP surounds himself with embezzlers, racists and crooks. He talks a good line, votes no in congress but his real ambition is to steal money and promote white racism. RP only wanted to be president so him and his goons could rob fort knox. He set up C4L to skim money from private donations. Boy have I been had. Now I feel like I did after believing "no nation building". Good God what a bunch of Trash I'm voting for McCain/Palin as at least she is cute.

And Bradley if you think I am voting for tha slimy used car salesman Barr you can think again.

Epic troll is epic.

[helmuth_hubener]

Moral I get from Bradley's excellent thread: no one knows how to spend your money better than you.

Over the last couple Ron Paul campaigns, I spent some money on signs (from independent, grassroots RP merchandise sites), paint and stencils and Tyvek making my own banners, donuts at the County Convention, and a bunch of stuff like that. I don't regret a penny of that. It was great fun, and we won the county (http://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/news/article_c1b528e9-fe55-5dd9-8954-82ca65655108.html?mode=jqm), second go-around.

I also gave some hundreds of dollars to the official campaign. Do I regret that? Not exactly "regret," but it was not a good use of money. They wasted my money on things I did not value, such as bribing Kent Sorenson and lining the pockets of staffers with payments I judge as too big (Jesse Benton's haul (http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/05/jesse-bentons-586616-take-as-result-of.html), just in 2012: $586,616).

Lesson learned. Spend your own money. Don't donate it to a black box.

I think AF would agree. AF spent some money on newspaper advertising in the 2012 election. Does he regret it? I'll bet he doesn't. I'll bet he thinks it was a good investment that paid off. Donations to Jesse Benton on the other hand? Maybe not so much.

Jesse didn't really need our $586,616. If I had known Dr. Paul was going to give that money to Jesse, I may not have given it to him. But that's how it works with donations: you hand over the money, and then they do whatever in the world they please with it -- probably something very different than you would have done with it.

[klamath]

Epic troll is epic.Epic ass as always. That post went way over your head even 6 years ago.