Agorism: Beat the State, show a profit, all in a non-violent way.

[gilliganscorner]

Hello Folks,

I posted this previously in a tax thread that is now defunct, but I would really like to see if folks like this idea. I originally posted the below in another thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=151529) supporting Social Engineer's www.freemarketforliberty.com (http://www.freemarketforliberty.com)

This could lead to the most significant value to members of this forum.

-------------


As most of you know, we are unwilling or unwitting participants in the "red market", that is to say, we are enslaved to a taxation/inflation system backed by State violence. The State siphons off a HUGE (it wouldn't be out there to say 80% if you factor in ALL direct and indirect taxes you pay, and the REAL inflation rate - some say between 12 and 15%) of your productivity by confiscating your money directly via taxation, and indirectly via inflation.

You cannot trade your productivity for anything other than Federal Reserve Points (FRPs) in the red market - as you are required to report your earnings to the State for taxation, regulation, and confiscation. Legal tender laws ensure that. The State demands taxes be paid in FRPs. This creates an artificial demand for those notes that have an arbitrary unit (the dollar) whose purchasing power is stolen from you by an arbitrary force (the State/Banking cartel - a.k.a The Federal Reserve). In other words, the State ensures that Gresham's Law works (http://gilliganscorner.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/greshams-law-only-works-because-of-state-violence/).

If you do not pay your taxes, the State will ultimately (after a great deal of harassment) deploy bad guys wearing clown suits and shiny badges to your house with guns to waterboard you and your family. It is raw terrorism. Who are you more afraid of? The State or some guy allegedly hiding in a cave with bad kidneys (who is more than likely dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zScYmvmANcA)) half-way around the world, or the IRS Terrorist Regime? I think we all know the answer to that question.

OK, Back on track.

We all know the US is bankrupt. It is only a matter of time before the economic system we are enslaved to implodes. The only reason that it has not collapsed like a third rate banana republic is that it's dollar is still viewed as the world's reserve currency (thanks to the Bretton Woods agreement that created the US dollar hegemony)...But that viewpoint is rapidly changing as Dr. Paul noted in this speech to Congress in February of 2006 (http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm).

Prior to the implosion, you will feel the pain of your dollar losing value by seeing it in soaring prices. Average Americans, lobotomized of critical thinking skills and authoritarian brainwashing by government indoctrination camps we call "public education", will turn to the State pleading "something has to be done!" which of course the State will expand it's reach, size, and power like never before, similar to how the Fed is seeking greater expansion, essentially to nationalize the financially industry via the excuse of the recent $9/11 "credit crisis" hoax. The subverted MSM will do it's best to whip people into a frenzy by scaring the shit out of them via establishment deflections such as I.O.U.S.A. This is the same thing that happened in the 30's when the Fed CAUSED the Great Depression that allowed FDR to usher in the raw deal called the "New Deal" - arguably the greatest expansion of the State ever seen.

That all said, setting up a counter-economy network of trading partners prior to the coming crash is ABSOLUTELY crucial. Most of us lack the means to produce all the goods we need. This is why we need to identify trading partners and establish relationships now. This is how we take individual responsibility for ourselves into our hands and not wait for the State to violently fuck us over.

Social Engineer has provided the first step to identify potential trading partners. I would like to see this also grow into a site where people can identify potential employers/employees who are willing to trade their services using whatever money that is sound (i.e. probably gold or silver coins - but people are free to trade in whatever commodity they wish of course).

Initially, I foresee most people working part time in this counter economy (it actually has a name - "agorism (http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/2961/41106.aspx#41106)"), as we cannot work full time in it, due to the requirement of paying taxes in Federal Reserve Points, or we would need to purchase something in the red market that is not available from participants on SC's site...yet. You need gas? You would still have to get that from a red market participant...until an independent stepped into SC's website and was willing to trade sound money (i.e. not Federal Reserve Points). In the red market, if I hire you, I am required to report the transaction to the IRS. When you are paid, you are required to pay your taxes to the IRS. You literally need Federal Reserve permission points to work!

By participating in what SC has set up, we get to protect the fruits of our labor from theft via taxation and inflation - provided we make the transition to sound money. Even if the State doesn't collapse during our working lifetime, we still profit from our activity. I think this is the only mechanism that stands a non-zero chance of success. For those of you who have read "Atlas Shrugged", it is a virtual Galt's Gulch, but you get to hide in plain sight!

Even if the State catches on and writes up some arbitrary rules to shut SC's site down, by then we would have established the network of trading partners - on pen and paper. New sites would spring up. Perhaps a P2P application will be built that facilitates trade with each other instead of files. The nice thing about P2P is that it is not centralized and would be difficult for the State to violently shut it down. It would be a "killer app".

Perhaps this site could be used where actors in the market rank the participant's trustworthiness. A State mole might be able to set up shop, but would not get far in the network.

I don't want to speak for you SC or hijack your idea to somewhere you didn't intend the purpose to go, but I thought I would highlight some possibilities to participants or lurkers in this thread.

Thoughts?

[mport1]

Agorism is great.

[gilliganscorner]

Allowing myself one bump to glean thoughts from folks.

[BarryDonegan]

I would be willing to do whatever I could to support alternative markets.

i am a touring musician by trade and I was already considering making a grey market merch booth next to our traditional merch booth in order to show kids at shows that you can have alternative markets.

as a traveller, i could be a great connector between people in a system like this.

are there plans for a site already?

I have people I could contact and get the ball rolling on this asap.

this is the type of thing that could really show our friends and neighbors that the mises institute and that type of philosophy could truly lead to prosperity.

[JenH88]

This is a good idea- we would def. need to get a barter website together though..

I personally sew, knit, and bake..

[hillertexas]

i would be interested in this

[gilliganscorner]

This is a good idea- we would def. need to get a barter website together though..

I personally sew, knit, and bake..

Barter is OK, but extremely inefficient. The reason for this is that it is a system of a "coincidence of wants" which means that A and B must have what the other wants at the same point in time AND they agree on mutually accepted value for their goods.

This inefficiency was addressed by money. Money serves as a "store of value" where you can sell your goods and services today so that you can spend tomorrow. Money is a complete confidence game. I accept money from you on the confident that someone else will accept it from me. Believe me, I would have NO problem accepting Eagles or Canadian Maples at all for my work.

You can register on the site provided above. Make up a name for your business. If you accept gold and silver coins for your labor - although you of course are free to choose what you accept for your labor.

Silver coins in hand, you can then look up another liberty minded business on the website for the things you want. Using your silver coins, buy what you need. The seller will do the same as you...look up another business for what he/she wants or needs.

We have a micro-economy starting to brew. We are using sound money. Occasionally we may have to go into a coin dealer to trade our sound money for counterfeit fiat to pay something into the "red market" - the inflation/taxation system, but as more and more people board into the economy, more and more varied goods and services are going to be offered, and less and less gold/silver coins are going to flow out of the economy. I am getting ahead of myself though...the network building phase is more important right now...

I even see one of the first businesses to spring out of this is a gold and silver barter network where people buy/sell their hard money for soft money at competitive rates. Oh, the irony!

Cheers!

[BarryDonegan]

how does one go about getting the coins of the same size and value.

[gilliganscorner]

how does one go about getting the coins of the same size and value.

I am not sure I understand you. One thing you might want to do is to simply use one ounce silver rounds - avoid premiums on "official" coins. I mean, to us folks operating in a liberty network, do I really place more value on a 1 oz Canadian Silver Maple vs. 1 oz Silver Liberty Eagle? No. Of course not.

All I care about is that it is one ounce of pure silver and I can easily recognize it. You can get great rounds at many online dealers, Here is one of many:

http://bullion.nwtmint.com/images/panam_rnd_obv.jpg (http://bullion.nwtmint.com/silver_panam.php)

Check craigslist to see if someone is willing to sell locally to you and it is worth it.

There are many posts kicking around on this forum w.r.t the best way to buy gold and silver coins. Do your own due diligence. In general, buy rounds, bars, and stay away from exotic gold coins due to outrageous premiums.

[BarryDonegan]

I am not sure I understand you. One thing you might want to do is to simply use one ounce silver rounds - avoid premiums on "official" coins. I mean, to us folks operating in a liberty network, do I really place more value on a 1 oz Canadian Silver Maple vs. 1 oz Silver Liberty Eagle? No. Of course not.

All I care about is that it is one ounce of pure silver and I can easily recognize it. You can get great rounds at many online dealers, Here is one of many:

http://bullion.nwtmint.com/images/panam_rnd_obv.jpg (http://bullion.nwtmint.com/silver_panam.php)

Check craigslist to see if someone is willing to sell locally to you and it is worth it.

There are many posts kicking around on this forum w.r.t the best way to buy gold and silver coins. Do your own due diligence. In general, buy rounds, bars, and stay away from exotic gold coins due to outrageous premiums.

yeah, i was more worried about accidentally trading a 1 oz aluminum coin with silver plating by mistake, haha. so I suppose the value of the coins for goods would just start to develop in the network on its own.

fair enough.

[gilliganscorner]

Ah. Now I understand....I think ;) You mean that you are worried about being ripped off with counterfeit coins?

If so, you can use a device like a Fisch (http://www.fisch.co.za/operation.htm) at the point of sale. Easy and convenient.

Did I understand correctly?

[Truth Warrior]

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Agorism

[gilliganscorner]

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Agorism

Thanks TW! Ooohh, all those big words in that article make me dizzy. I just want to do useful work, get paid, and not have to report it for taxation, confiscation or regulation. :D

Cheers!

[Truth Warrior]

Thanks TW! Ooohh, all those big words in that article make me dizzy. I just want to do useful work, get paid, and not have to report it for taxation, confiscation or regulation. :D

Cheers! You're welcome. :) Try this one. http://www.agorism.info/

I just want to be left the hell alone, to live my life in freedom, peace and prosperity. ;) :D

[FunkBuddha]

You're welcome. :)

I just want to be left the hell alone, to live my life in freedom, peace and prosperity. ;) :D

QFT

I like the agorism idea.

[Truth Warrior]

QFT

I like the agorism idea. As long as it's voluntary, I have no problem with the "idea". ;)

[gilliganscorner]

As long as it's voluntary, I have no problem with the "idea". ;)
That's why I got behind it. Their is nothing coercive behind it, unlike "democracy". No mob rules. No political might makes right. No stupid assumptions like "the majority owns truth", like the red market we are all enslaved into today. You are free to participate...or not. Your choice.

However, I post it because:

a) It is virtually unheard of.
b) Education is key. Rational folks will rapidly see the advantages of this. I find a higher percentage of these types of folks amongst the Ron Paul supporters.
c) Social Engineer's website is a good way to capitalize on the networking aspect.

Hey, if us folks want to spend a mountain of time and effort to reform the system, that's great. Ron Paul is the only political figure I have ever been interested in (and even excited about), Canadian or American. However, as per standard investment advice, it is a BAD idea not to diversify and put all your eggs in one basket. There is no reason we cannot do try to reform the State AND build an agorist network.

I personally think the State is virtually unsalvageable - but it doesn't mean I won't help others try. If our attempts fail, we have the foundations of an agorist network! It doesn't need to be reformed, it needs to be scrapped. I don't want to get into arguments of "who'll build the roads?", or "who will run the courts or police?", as the State created these things and thwarted what a free market might have created. As a result, most of us cannot imagine what the free market version of these "institutions" might look like. There are MANY arguments explored over at mises.org how that may come about. Free markets were never really allowed to be tried before they were usurped by a State and history rewritten. But I am rambling on again...

We cannot match the firepower of the State (remember Ed and Elaine Brown?). All they wanted was the State to show them the law where it was required that they had to pay income tax. Instead, they got a 3 month siege, helicopters, and men in black running around their property. How much did that cost, as opposed to the State simply showing them the law! Answer: There isn't one. If the State hastily passed some new legislation, then they would have to admit there wasn't a law for 90+ years! Doesn't matter. The State will always use violence against its citizens.

I think this method is the only one that stands a non-zero chance of success.

[Truth Warrior]

That's why I got behind it. Their is nothing coercive behind it, unlike "democracy". No mob rules. No political might makes right. No stupid assumptions like "the majority owns truth", like the red market we are all enslaved into today. You are free to participate...or not. Your choice.

However, I post it because:

a) It is virtually unheard of.
b) Education is key. Rational folks will rapidly see the advantages of this. I find a higher percentage of these types of folks amongst the Ron Paul supporters.
c) Social Engineer's website is a good way to capitalize on the networking aspect.

Hey, if us folks want to spend a mountain of time and effort to reform the system, that's great. Ron Paul is the only political figure I have ever been interested in (and even excited about), Canadian or American. However, as per standard investment advice, it is a BAD idea not to diversify and put all your eggs in one basket. There is no reason we cannot do try to reform the State AND build an agorist network.

I personally think the State is virtually unsalvageable - but it doesn't mean I won't help others try. If our attempts fail, we have the foundations of an agorist network! It doesn't need to be reformed, it needs to be scrapped. I don't want to get into arguments of "who'll build the roads?", or "who will run the courts or police?", as the State created these things and thwarted what a free market might have created. As a result, most of us cannot imagine what the free market version of these "institutions" might look like. There are MANY arguments explored over at mises.org how that may come about. Free markets were never really allowed to be tried before they were usurped by a State and history rewritten. But I am rambling on again...

We cannot match the firepower of the State (remember Ed and Elaine Brown?). All they wanted was the State to show them the law where it was required that they had to pay income tax. Instead, they got a 3 month siege, helicopters, and men in black running around their property. How much did that cost, as opposed to the State simply showing them the law! Answer: There isn't one. If the State hastily passed some new legislation, then they would have to admit there wasn't a law for 90+ years! Doesn't matter. The State will always use violence against its citizens.

I think this method is the only one that stands a non-zero chance of success.

You're an Anarchist (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer60.html)
Me too, says Butler Shaffer. So are all civilized men, in practice.

[gilliganscorner]

You're welcome. :) Try this one. http://www.agorism.info/

I just want to be left the hell alone, to live my life in freedom, peace and prosperity. ;) :D


And I might want you as my neighbor. However, I may stroll over for a coffee once and a while. Don't shoot at me, OK? :D

[gilliganscorner]

You're an Anarchist (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer60.html)
Me too, says Butler Shaffer. So are all civilized men, in practice.

Now that just hurts ;) Yeehaw! (Conjures up images of looting, burning buildings et. al.).

I don't like labels. They are a kind of censorship. People tend to think you ONLY operate within the boundaries of them and their understanding of what the labels mean. Kind of like language :eek:.

I think the goalposts should be set to "no government"....how close we get there? I don't know if we can. Shouldn't we be allowed to try?

I yam what I yam. - Popeye

[gilliganscorner]

You're an Anarchist (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer60.html)
Me too, says Butler Shaffer. So are all civilized men, in practice.

I am starting to read that article. It looks pretty good so far....

[nayjevin]

What can we do to help?

[gilliganscorner]

What can we do to help?

What do you mean?

[FunkBuddha]

How do agorists vet other would-be agorists? Ho do you keep "the man" out?

[nayjevin]

What can we do to help?

well, i am pretty ignorant when it comes to this stuff, what are you looking for at this point? a list of services offered by members of the forum, a coalition of programmers to help with the p2p idea, a spreading of the idea that this has potential, what? this is the type of idea that i see could be truly revolutionary, and would do whatever to help it along. i guess i'm just voicing my support.

[Truth Warrior]

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi

[gilliganscorner]

How do agorists vet other would-be agorists? Ho do you keep "the man" out?

OK. Bear with me. I see Social Engineer's site (http://www.freemarketforliberty.com) as a "philosophical prototype". He has a great idea. It starts with getting a bunch of people together who are willing to trade using sound money - it will probably evolve into gold and silver - but the actors can use whatever they wish to close a trade.

Every time a trade is made we have a ranking system that rates "trustworthiness", just like the Better Business Bureau or eBay's ranking system. Every time a transaction is made the parties rate the transaction. Over time, you will build a reputation. It doesn't even need a website, you may be able to keep your network on pen and paper, but a site helps it go viral. Someone dealing with a new person can look up their ratings.

Only an idiot would welch in this system - what is the value of your trade or earnings in this system when you don't have to report it for taxation or confiscation via inflation?

Yes, if moles wanted to penetrate the system, they could, but they wouldn't get far, especially if it grew to a point where it became feasible to make www.freemarketforliberty.com a "torrent" site (amongst others that would spring up) like isohunt.com and piratesbay.com. We could run a P2P app on our iPhones, Blackberry's or our device of choice to locate other traders and their trustworthiness instead of sharing files. Do you see? Sorry, I am pretty fired up about this.

If the man wanted to infiltrate the network, he might get one or two of us, but the network would be solid - and go viral. Through the virtual network, we could establish real local relationships with liberty minded people. The site serves as introductions to each other like a snooty country club, except we're not snooty.:)

The possibilities are endless...I could go on, but I have to go for now. Please post your questions and I'll do my best to answer.

[gilliganscorner]

What can we do to help?

Wow. I'm flattered. You used a quote of mine in your signature? I meant to say:

I don't like labels. They are a form of censorship as they inhibit understanding of who you are. Kind of like how language sometimes inhibits ideas, but it is the best we have.

Cheers.

Back to my Guinness. It's Friday!

[Petar]

How do agorists vet other would-be agorists? Ho do you keep "the man" out?

The idea behind my project is that if the 1.2 million people who voted for Ron Paul all list their business on my site, then we can all find each others businesses really easily, and then we can all support each other as much as possible.

The way that we will validate that business are legitimate liberty supporting candidates, is by developing a tool that allows listing owners to show how much they have donated towards liberty candidates.

My goal is to work with the CFL on that.

For now I just need people signing up their businesses, promoting this, and it will really help whenever I can find someone who is a really good programmer to do some improvements.

So the fact that businesses will be validated as legitimate liberty supporting organizations will be the "Agoric" part I guess, because if we really get a thriving liberty oriented market place going, then a portion of that circulating currency will consistently flow towards liberty campaigns.

When I add a tool that allows listing owners to show which precious metal based currencies that they support transactions with, then perhaps that could be considered "Agorism" as well, because we could theoretically resist the inflation of the banksters that way.

The next step towards "Agorism" would be when I add a barter site to the system, I know it's basic, but when TSHTF then that's probably exactly what we are going to need.

Beyond that, who knows, maybe we could make our own colonial script style currency some day?

[nayjevin]

You used a quote of mine in your signature?

yes, and i took liberties with it.

also, signatures are limited to 500 words, and acptulsa's is too damn good to drop.

u want me to alter it? the way you've re-worded it was the way i took it in the first place... i figured thinking folk would as well. but yes, i have censored you in a fashion!

[nayjevin]

The way that we will validate that business are legitimate liberty supporting candidates, is by developing a tool that allows listing owners to show how much they have donated towards liberty candidates.also important would be how much of the business' proceeds are pumped back into the system. also, what type of feedback ratings they have received on 'liberty friendliness', for instance, does the restaurant have a smoking section? does that section infringe on the rights of non-smokers? etc. each user, after transaction, could be allowed the opportunity to rate the business in several ways -- friendliness, level of community involvement, degree that business itself promotes the general welfare (i.e. springwater bottling company vs. pesticides company) and each person looking for a business could adapt their own filters to decide which of these things are important to them.


For now I just need people signing up their businesses, promoting this, and it will really help whenever I can find someone who is a really good programmer to do some improvements.will do -- re: promoting, signing up. (i'm not a programmer)

anybody familiar with http://www.libertyforums.com ? i haven't been on there for a while, but at one point members were attempting something similar -- a gold micropayment system among members to skirt the fiat system. i think the subforum was called 'galt's gulch' in fact.


So the fact that businesses will be validated as legitimate liberty supporting organizations will be the "Agoric" part I guess, because if we really get a thriving liberty oriented market place going, then a portion of that circulating currency will consistently flow towards liberty campaigns.There would be difficulty determining which campaigns are legitimately 'liberty campaigns', but this is not an un-overcomable obstacle. i see an adaptable, per-user filter system - the results of my search for businesses would show up different than yours might, if i set my filters to 'don't show me environmentalists', give me 'anarchists' or whatever. not such a good example.

here's where i explained it a little better i think:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=151516&highlight=roxic27


leave it totally open for anyone to review -- and let each individual person customize their experience on that website through their own filters -- ie:

a person signs up for the website and begins browsing businesses -- lets say the person searches for a coin business - all the coin businesses that have reviews show up. the user looks through the reviews and businesses to make a decision based on those reviews.

if, after shopping, the user comes back and rates the review 1 star, then all those people who reviewed that business as 5 stars would be given less credence (or voting weight, multiplier) -- but only to the user who voted just 1 star, and only to calculate what 'suggested' businesses to list for the user when 'let consumerreview.com make suggestions based on my ratings' is turned on by the user... see where i'm going with this?

it doesn't have to be isolationist or anti-liberty -- in fact the best 'social networking' / 'web 2.0' sites naturally operate in a manner nearing anarchy - youtube, facebook, myspace. i would say model it like that, and use c-net as an example of a good reviews model.

it would take a long time to get enough reviews - but starting within this crowd i think they'd be good ones.

could even have a more complex voting system, for instance:

customer service 1-10
convenience 1-10
quality 1-10
degree to which the company's ideals align with your own 1-10

and in addition the user could use sliders to choose how important each one is, so that suggestions can be tailored - for instance, i don't care about convenience, i just want a principled company, so i want greater weight given to the opinions of those who agree with me on the degree to which various ompanies fit their ideals (wal-mart haters unite) but don't agree with how convenient it is than the other way around.

er stuff.

[gilliganscorner]

Let's keep this thread ripping. I want to promote what Peter is doing here...

[gilliganscorner]

How do agorists vet other would-be agorists? Ho do you keep "the man" out?

Did I help answer your question?

[gilliganscorner]

I was just looking around the forums...man, it looks like everyone is tearing each other apart to kill RPFs...

Let's work on our free market and sound money...

[FunkBuddha]

Did I help answer your question?

For the most part. I'm still trying to get my mind around the security of the whole system. I mean a myspace/ebay like website would be cool, but in that case, everything is located centrally and would be subject to confiscation.

Even in a peer to peer environment, you still have to have the tracker and the clients still have to be able to communicate with one another so they have to know each others addresses.

One way might be to create a Java client that used something like Tor or I2P to tunnel information over a secure channel to a central server. People could keep a profile on the central server. Any mail between two parties that was stored on the server would be untraceable unless it contained identifiable personal information but even this could be encrypted somehow. Eventually the two parties would have to exchange addresses though.

Maybe I'm thinking too much. I do have a tendency to over-complicate things.

[Petar]

nayjevin

There will be a function that will allow users to post general feedback on listings, and then listing owners will be able to respond to feedback posted as well.

Visitors should also be able to track all of the feedback that any user has posted, but I'm not gonna make any attempt to direct anyone to rate "liberty friendlyness".

"Liberty friendlyness" is gonna be rated by how much money that businesses have donated to "liberty campaigns", and what exactly constitutes a "liberty campaign" is either going to just be determined by the free-market, or perhaps will all be CFL approved.

I just know for sure that I would like to work directly with the CFL to figure that whole part out, and we're supposed to do some talking next week.

So beyond providing a general feedback exchange function, and the ability to see how much a listing has donated to liberty candidates, there isn't gonna be any "filter function".

Nor will there be any way to track what businesses are doing with their money, besides what they may choose to display through the "display how much you have donated to liberty candidates tool", anything beyond that is private information and no one else's business.

I might add a social network to the system though, in order to strengthen social bonds within the movement in general, but also so that we may share market info.

Thank you very much for your support.

[FunkBuddha]

I was just looking around the forums...man, it looks like everyone is tearing each other apart to kill RPFs...

Let's work on our free market and sound money...

Yeah, i try and stay out of that shit.

[gilliganscorner]

For the most part. I'm still trying to get my mind around the security of the whole system. I mean a myspace/ebay like website would be cool, but in that case, everything is located centrally and would be subject to confiscation.

Even in a peer to peer environment, you still have to have the tracker and the clients still have to be able to communicate with one another so they have to know each others addresses.

One way might be to create a Java client that used something like Tor or I2P to tunnel information over a secure channel to a central server. People could keep a profile on the central server. Any mail between two parties that was stored on the server would be untraceable unless it contained identifiable personal information but even this could be encrypted somehow. Eventually the two parties would have to exchange addresses though.

Maybe I'm thinking too much. I do have a tendency to over-complicate things.

Not at all. Yes there are people who tend to go into "analysis paralysis" but I will try to help clarify how I see it as well.

[gilliganscorner]

For the most part. I'm still trying to get my mind around the security of the whole system. I mean a myspace/ebay like website would be cool, but in that case, everything is located centrally and would be subject to confiscation.

Correct. Any centralization of the network would be subject to the State violently shutting it down. Digital Gold Currency sites are useless. In fact, the State is looking to actively shut them down. I wrote up a blog entry on this, but from a Canadian perspective. IMHO, it is worth a read to understand the issues. (http://gilliganscorner.wordpress.com/2008/05/26/fintrac-declares-war-on-free-trade/). Don't get me wrong. Canada, along side the US, are already communist countries (http://gilliganscorner.wordpress.com/2008/02/25/papers-please-has-communism-been-implemented-in-the-canada/).

OK. Now that we understand.


Even in a peer to peer environment, you still have to have the tracker and the clients still have to be able to communicate with one another so they have to know each others addresses.

Correct. Not sure if that is a big idea, especially if all traffic is encrypted by SSL. Hey, all you have to do is to look at the legal hoops that distribution companie are trying to deal with Napster (yeah, I know they are shut down....but hey, how'd that work out to stop filesharing? ), but the network continues AND they have to prove what you did behind the SSL screen.


One way might be to create a Java client that used something like Tor or I2P to tunnel information over a secure channel to a central server. People could keep a profile on the central server. Any mail between two parties that was stored on the server would be untraceable unless it contained identifiable personal information but even this could be encrypted somehow. Eventually the two parties would have to exchange addresses though.

Right. This is why we might create GPG signatures (private keys) and kick public keys around to the people we trade with. Again, I do not have all the answers, but together we might figure it out.

However, we are getting ahead of ourselves. Social Engineer's site is a great eay to make local relations simply by pen and paper. It is developing our networks that is important. Think of his site as the Google to find liberty minded people who want agorism.



Maybe I'm thinking too much. I do have a tendency to over-complicate things.

Nah. You're good. I wouldn't be so paranoid myself if they weren't REALLY out to git me. ;)

[nayjevin]

"Liberty friendlyness" is gonna be rated by how much money that businesses have donated to "liberty campaigns"

I guess my problem with this is there will be people who have genuine desire to participate in the end of the fiat system but have no interest in politics -- in other words, they would have a high 'liberty quotient' but will never donate to a candidates campaign. some anarchists i know are like this.

also, there will be some whose businesses do not turn enough profit to donate much to campaigns - but the owner may do much for the liberty movement (like a web designer might build a website that brings 1000's into the sound money system, but the website only generates $4 a month revenue, nothing left over to donate). also, it seems like a sort of rich get richer thing -- $10 means alot more to some people than it would others, some are able to donate more than others.

seems like using ONLY campaign contributions is insufficient, that's why i tried to come up with some other ways to guage a company's 'liberty quotient', such as reviews by liberty customers. however, i see where you are going -- how much a person has actually donated is a hard-to-fudge way to guage liberty mindedness.

[gilliganscorner]

Anyone else have thoughts?

[gilliganscorner]

well, i am pretty ignorant when it comes to this stuff, what are you looking for at this point? a list of services offered by members of the forum, a coalition of programmers to help with the p2p idea, a spreading of the idea that this has potential, what? this is the type of idea that i see could be truly revolutionary, and would do whatever to help it along. i guess i'm just voicing my support.

NayJevin, get in touch with Social Engineer. If you have services you can offer, register on the site as a business.

This like a meetup group, but instead we are trading goods and services instead of politics.

I was reminded of Dr. Cleon Skousen today in this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=153728), and in this speech (http://www.awakeandarise.org/article/WWI_Clark.htm) he noted:


But the Lord isn't going to allow this government to be destroyed. Although administrations may destroy themselves, systems may destroy themselves, this country's going to survive. J. Reuben Clark knew how it would survive: build track two. Don't get in front of that train on track one, it will just run over you. You quietly build track two.

Sometimes people say, "Dr. Skousen, you spent your whole life studying these things that have gone wrong, with the attack on the Constitution and everything. Why are you so optimistic?"

I say to them, "I read the book, and in the end, we win."

This is track two.

In the past, we would arm ourselves and defend this country against its own government. Back then, we could arm ourselves roughly on equal footing with the government, or at least be one hell of a surprising force.

Can't do that today. They have armed themselves to the teeth with weapons we don't understand, let alone afford. The media is co-opted, and the court systems corrupt. Besides, I hate violence anyway.

Agorism is the only mechanism to build track two successfully today. And it will work, if we want it to!

[idiom]

x.x


Don't you people have anything like this?

BarterCard (http://www.bartercard.co.nz/)


Bartercard is unlike any other credit or debit card because you fund our card with your own goods and services... NOT CASH. Bartercard currently helps over 6,500 smart businesses in New Zealand to increase sales, customer base, cash-flow and profit. Bartercard enables member businesses, saving valuable cash, without having to engage in a direct swap of goods.

[gilliganscorner]

x.x


Don't you people have anything like this?

BarterCard (http://www.bartercard.co.nz/)

Never seen it. Took a look.

Problem. It is a centralized point where all participants information is stored. Thus it is subject to seizure by the State. Owners arrested, participants waterboarded. Just like the DoJ did with e-gold (http://stakeventures.com/articles/2008/07/22/the-man-finally-brought-e-gold-down). Essentially regulation implements the "Know Your Customer" paradigm, which in reality translates to, "You are responsible for what your Customers do."

The site I referred to, www.freemarketforliberty.com (http://www.freemarketforliberty.com) , people can use to locally develop their network of trading partners. They can keep track of them with pen and paper when they are trading off the books.

How long before the folks at BarterCard report what their Customers do, so that their trades can be evaluated in the <insert fiat currency here> so local taxation agencies can determine their unearned cut? Remember the crackdown on eBay powerSellers, where eBay was forced to turn over records for people who dealt in business over $1000 Federal Reserve Points per month?

[FunkBuddha]

Do you remember back in the day when we had BBSs? We used to have message board networks like FidoNet and FishNet where people could send mail around the world pre-internet.

The problem with networks like Tor and I2P is that they are incredibly slow. The bandwidth you get from these networks isn't feasible for graphic intensive web pages, but it would be just fine for text based traffic.

The cool thing about the anonymizing networks is that you can have anonymous servers setup on them as well. Anyone could run a simple BBS package that could connect up to our message board network. This solves the decentralization problem by having the message board replicated across many servers.

We would have to develop some sort of way to distribute a profile database between servers over the messaging system for the ranking system.

Sorry for the bad english... Just thinking out loud here.

[idiom]

BarterCard has been around for 18 years so far...

Whatever you do, if you have the cardreader inside a phone book in a hidden panel, that dials into a a secret server somewhere, this is by far the most reliable and proven system.

But I know how you guys are all about square wheels and such. If your government ever got ot the point of shutting something like this down then it would be 2nd amendment time. Mind you, you should have literally all stuck to your guns when they came for your gold.

[gilliganscorner]

BarterCard has been around for 18 years so far...

Whatever you do, if you have the cardreader inside a phone book in a hidden panel, that dials into a a secret server somewhere, this is by far the most reliable and proven system.

But I know how you guys are all about square wheels and such. If your government ever got ot the point of shutting something like this down then it would be 2nd amendment time. Mind you, you should have literally all stuck to your guns when they came for your gold.

Could you elaborate what you mean here? I have no clue as to what you are talking about.

[mudhoney]

I'm new to these things, but I'm certainly VERY interested in participating in an alternative market to the government run system we have now. My question is: What is the legal situation surrounding this idea? Is using things like Silver or anything else other than U.S. Dollars for significant transactions in some way illegal?

[idiom]

Could you elaborate what you mean here? I have no clue as to what you are talking about.


Executive Order 6102 is an Executive Order signed on April 5, 1933 by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt "Forbiding the Hoarding of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificates." It required all persons to deliver on or before May 1, 1933 all gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates owned by them to the Federal Reserve.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102)

Oops.

[tremendoustie]

This is great! Is it legal? I mean, if I sell you 10 cans of soup for 1oz silver and neither of us pays taxes, is that currently legal? Because if it is, that's a hell of a loophole.

This would be an ideal tool for fighting for liberty, I'd just be surprised if they haven't already taken it away from us.

I'm not opposed to civil disobedience under certain circumstances, but I'd like to know when I'm participating in it.

[idiom]

Its legal outside the United States... out in the free world. :p

[tremendoustie]

Its legal outside the United States... out in the free world. :p

Quite seriously? Other countries permit this activity, but the US does not?

If you have them, I'd be very interested in seeing the associated laws, and knowing which countries still have this kind of freedom.

[idiom]

Well BarterCard (http://www.bartercard.com/) is the largest system around. Its not designed to swap currencies, but to avoid them altogether.

It currently operates in Australia, New Zealand, The United Kingdom, Cyprus, Thailand, Egypt, UAE, Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait, Qatar, Sri Lanka and India.

Wiki on the Tax Issues. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartercard)

Inside the United States the barter econmy and currencies are backed by cocaine. It is better than Gold because you can eat it, after a fashion.

[tremendoustie]

Well BarterCard (http://www.bartercard.com/) is the largest system around. Its not designed to swap currencies, but to avoid them altogether.

It currently operates in Australia, New Zealand, The United Kingdom, Cyprus, Thailand, Egypt, UAE, Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait, Qatar, Sri Lanka and India.

Wiki on the Tax Issues. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartercard)

Inside the United States the barter econmy and currencies are backed by cocaine. It is better than Gold because you can eat it, after a fashion.

Looking it up, it appears that the US requires that you report the monetary value of your barter as taxable income.

Still, I think it's worth it to set up the network. I can sell you goods for silver, then pay the IRS off in FRNs. It'd be cool to set up a hard currency coffee shop or something. And of course in a real SHTF situation, it could be useful.

[gilliganscorner]

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102)

Oops.

Ah. I understand now.

Bernanke admitted that the Fed "let" the Great Depression happen. I personally think it was engineered ON PURPOSE in order to drive the American people to their knees. When you are tired and hungry and have hope removed from you, you are more likely to give up liberty and independence for security. Sound familiar?

Gold was taken from the American people because they were boycotting Federal Reserve Points to trade in sound money outside the taxation/inflation system - agorism. Statism will not permit that. Oh sure, the dollar was still backed by gold, but Americans were not allowed to own gold. So they couldn't redeem it. Foreigners could though.

A few generations passed and people forgot about the virtues of gold as money and as a standard, as per design. No economics school taught the virtues of the gold standard as only professors that espoused Keynesian economics were allowed into the system - as per design. The ideas of Austrian economics were suppressed - as per design.

Americans were only allowed to own gold in 1975, after Nixon closed the gold window and NOBODY could redeem the dollar in gold anymore. However, the Gold clause is still in effect. That is, any contract settled in gold as payment will be nullified if it goes to court.

All this fuss for a soft, shiny, yellow metal, no?

[gilliganscorner]

Looking it up, it appears that the US requires that you report the monetary value of your barter as taxable income.

QFT.
In Canada: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tp/it490/it490-e.txt
In the US: http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
In Australia: http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?docid=ITR/IT2668/NAT/ATO/00001

I could go on, but no Statist government will allow you to trade off the books in barter. You are not permitted to exit the "red market" a.k.a the taxation/inflation system we are enslaved to. As Greenspan said:


In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.

This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.


If you find the odd country that doesn't specifically have a ruling, it won't be long before their is one....and it won't be in your favor.


Still, I think it's worth it to set up the network. I can sell you goods for silver, then pay the IRS off in FRNs. It'd be cool to set up a hard currency coffee shop or something. And of course in a real SHTF situation, it could be useful.

A hard currency coffee shop would be a VERY LARGE target for the State for a raid. It is centralized. Customers could be monitored. The owner raided. The media would either report what it was told to report ("That coffee shop sells poisoned milk to schoolchildren!" or "In other news, Hank's Coffee shop was shutdown today because Federal Agents found <insert fabricated morally offensive evidence here>!") or they would not report it at all.

Are you saying that you would report transactions in silver as the value of FRNs, then pay your extortion to the IRS? I wouldn't do that. In the SHTF scenario, you would be the first on their radar.

It is worth it to setup the network with trusted trading partners. You save all the extortion fees, make connections, and more.

[gilliganscorner]

Its legal outside the United States... out in the free world. :p

From http://au.bartercard.com/?page=tax


TAXATION AND BARTERCARD

Members should treat a Trade Dollar as they would a cash dollar from a tax perspective. Barter transactions are assessable and deductible for income tax purposes to the same extent as other cash or credit transactions. Therefore, the advantages and disadvantages are similar to ordinary cash revenue or expenses.
Register with Bartercard

Trading may result in tax liability when selling and attract tax credit when purchasing. It may also involve the Fringe Benefits, Sales Tax and Capital Gains Legislation. The Australian Taxation Office has expressed its views in Taxation Ruling IT 2668 on the taxation consequences of Trade transactions.

"When an entity that is a member of a Trade Exchange makes a taxable supply to another member, there is a liability for tax, including goods and services tax (GST)."

For tax purposes, the Australian Taxation Office considers one Trade Dollar (T$1) equal to one Australian dollar ($1). For the purposes of the tax laws, payments such as GST, income tax and the superannuation guarantee levy must be remitted to the Australian Taxation Office in Australian currency.

Trading is not designed to be used as a means of tax evasion or avoidance. Bartercard members should treat sales and deductible purchases as they would treat a cash transaction. Opening a Trade account is similar to opening another bank or credit card account.

As the third party record keeper, Bartercard Pty Ltd has a legal obligation to provide information, upon request, concerning members' trading activity to any government department.

Further information about the Australian Taxation Office’s stand on barter can be found here (http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/35349.htm&amp;page=3&amp;H3)

Big fail...

Hmm. A centralized database where the State Terrorist Agency a.k.a the Taxation department can seize records on demand.

Agorism is NOT that.

[gilliganscorner]

Bump to consider the OP...

[FunkBuddha]

Bump to consider the OP...

I'm still here... I'm playing around with my BBS idea. I've stumbled upon a cool BBS package that allows SSH for end to end encryption.

I'm looking into what it would take to create a messaging network that could tie BBSs together in such a way that if one was taken down the network would continue to operate. Sort of like FidoNet back in the day.

The problem with forums like RPF is that if this site gets taken down we'll all be scattered to the wind. With the BBS network you could just log on to a different one and get right back in to the network.

The BBS package is called SynchoNet if you're interested in playing with it.

[me3]

if you're interested in Agorism, two blogs to read are

http://fskrealityguide.blogspot.com

http://nothirdsolution.com

[gilliganscorner]

if you're interested in Agorism, two blogs to read are

http://fskrealityguide.blogspot.com

http://nothirdsolution.com



http://fskrealityguide.blogspot.com

Awesome, awesome blog. I cannot tell you how much FSK has influenced my thinking. He is the one that turned me onto agorism. Most of us on this forum are aware of the corrupt monetary system we are enslaved to...FSK teaches what to DO about it. I read it every day. If you want logic to hit you like an 8 foot 2x4 in the center of the forehead and you'll stand there blinking, this blog is for you.



http://nothirdsolution.com

Another well written blog, although I am only started reading it recently. David Z makes very cogent arguments as well.

[me3]

If you really want to pump up the volume, try http://nostate.com

That blog is pretty radical and doesn't hold back.

[BarryDonegan]

these are some really good blogs.

[gilliganscorner]

Bump for awareness after we pay for the current Wall Street bailout through inflation.

[mediahasyou]

Agorism is a personal favorite to achieve a libertarian society. As was it used by the colonials in 1776.

[gilliganscorner]

I understand and sympathize with RP supporters trying to change things through the current corrupt system, but I feel it is pointless. No, I am not a troll, so don't bother.

Agorism is something we can do for ourselves without waiting for a political messiah (as much as I like RP) to do for ourselves. Hell, we can even continue to support him, but as he said, it is time to take responsibility for ourselves.

[danda]

This concept is interesting. Do y'all think it is worth setting up a dedicated auction site?

Or has someone already done it?

If not, I could do so in relatively short order. Indeed I have already identified the software, which offers a very ebay-esque experience. I would probably set it up similar to ebay except:
* all auctions would be denominated in hard metal currencies
* seller can accept buyer's payment (or not) via any of the online metal exchanges, or physical metal.
* auction fees a bit lower than ebay, but paid using one or more of the online metals exchanges.

So I am basically asking if there is interest. Or if it already exists. Or if it wouldn't fly for some other reason?

If 10 or more folks PM me saying they would be interesting in selling products/services on such a site, and no significant obstacles present themselves, then I plan to forge ahead, and offer up a preview site without fees. OTOH, if there is no interest, why bother?

[gilliganscorner]

This concept is interesting. Do y'all think it is worth setting up a dedicated auction site?

Or has someone already done it?

If not, I could do so in relatively short order. Indeed I have already identified the software, which offers a very ebay-esque experience. I would probably set it up similar to ebay except:
* all auctions would be denominated in hard metal currencies
* seller can accept buyer's payment (or not) via any of the online metal exchanges, or physical metal.
* auction fees a bit lower than ebay, but paid using one or more of the online metals exchanges.

So I am basically asking if there is interest. Or if it already exists. Or if it wouldn't fly for some other reason?

If 10 or more folks PM me saying they would be interesting in selling products/services on such a site, and no significant obstacles present themselves, then I plan to forge ahead, and offer up a preview site without fees. OTOH, if there is no interest, why bother?

Thanks for your interest!

The flaw in setting up an on-line auction house is that it is centralized (i.e. you have it registered somewhere, the server(s) are sitting in some physical location) making it a target for the State to violently crack down on it.

This is EXACTLY what happened with DGCs (Digital Gold Currency sites) like egold.com and goldmoney.com. If you reach a certain critical mass, the State will arrest the owners, seize records, and waterboard the participants as you are not allowed to trade outside the taxation/inflation system. You are not allowed to escape slavery.

Social Engineer has requested help in developing his site to identify potential trading partners. I like SC's site as it identifies who might be willing to trade off the books for sound currency. His site holds no transaction information the State might use to crack down on the participants.

The idea is:

1) Go to his site and look for businesses and people that are offering the goods and/or services you want.
2) Contact these people, preferably face to face and say, "Do you want to do a deal in sound money?". I am hoping that some of these people will hire folks who are willing to be paid in sound money, outside of the red market taxation/inflation slave system.
3) Keep records private on pen and paper even!

When the red market collapses (yes...it's when, not IF), folks participating in that network will have trusted trading partners to work with post-collapse. OK, even if the red market does not collapse, taxation/inflation will continue to rise, stealing your productivity. Why not keep it for yourself anyway. Either scenario, you win.

Danda, my unsolicited advice is to get in touch with Social Engineer and ask how you can help. Of course you are free to ignore me :)

[mediahasyou]

Eventually, servers should be moved to multiple foreign countries to avoid state coercion. Decentralization sounds good.


Agorism for Dummies:
http://agorism.info/

http://agorism.info/faq/start

http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/nlm/nlm5.html

[danda]

I, and my company, are already in a foreign country.

Even if that were not the case, I don't see where this would have the same legal issues as the DGC providers. This site would just be auctions, and could even be denominated in dollars, but the actual payments would usually be made via one of the DGCs, which would be for the seller to decide which one(s) to accept.

Am I wrong?

[mediahasyou]

I, and my company, are already in a foreign country.

Even if that were not the case, I don't see where this would have the same legal issues as the DGC providers. This site would just be auctions, and could even be denominated in dollars, but the actual payments would usually be made via one of the DGCs, which would be for the seller to decide which one(s) to accept.

Am I wrong?

The government will combat all Agorism whether it is illegal or legal. Legal will soon become illegal. For Agorism is aimed at the abolition of the state, the state will act in all ways hold down it's people from freedom. Freedom and the state cannot survive together...One is born when the other dies.

[RevolutionSD]

Thumbs up for this post!
Agorism is fantastic. Let's do this!

[RevolutionSD]

The government will combat all Agorism whether it is illegal or legal. Legal will soon become illegal. For Agorism is aimed at the abolition of the state, the state will act in all ways hold down it's people from freedom. Freedom and the state cannot survive together...One is born when the other dies.

I agree 100%. We must dismantle the state before we see freedom. Any ideas?

[gilliganscorner]

I was wondering when Paul supporters would come around ;) It really isn't all that hard when you think about it...No ego intended at all.

[gilliganscorner]

I, and my company, are already in a foreign country.

Even if that were not the case, I don't see where this would have the same legal issues as the DGC providers. This site would just be auctions, and could even be denominated in dollars, but the actual payments would usually be made via one of the DGCs, which would be for the seller to decide which one(s) to accept.

Am I wrong?

Recall the Terrorist Taxation Agencies (TTAs) going after Ebay to disclose their records, initially for users selling over $1000/month. Ebay caved. All TTA's will cooperate and work in tandem together nationally or multi-nationally.

What you are proposing as well is, well, yet another Ebay.

Ebay used to allow DGC payments prior to their acquisition of PayPal. Since they had a vested interest in creating a monopoly on payment systems. If you review their accepted payments policy (http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html), you can see specifically they bless/exclude (note that they neglected to put PayPal on their permitted list ;) ) the following payment systems:


Payment Services permitted on eBay: Allpay.net, cash2india, CertaPay, Checkfree.com, hyperwallet.com, Moneybookers.com, Nochex.com, Ozpay.biz, Paymate.com.au, Propay.com, XOOM

Payment Services not permitted on eBay: AlertPay.com, anypay.com, AuctionChex.com, BillPay.ie, ecount.com, cardserviceinternational.com, CCAvenue, ecount, e-gold, eHotPay.com, ePassporte.com, EuroGiro, FastCash.com, Google Checkout, gcash, GearPay, Goldmoney.com, graphcard.com, greenzap.com, ikobo.com, Liberty Dollars, Moneygram.com, neteller.com, Netpay.com, paychest.com, payingfast.com, Payko.com, paypay, Postepay, Qchex.com, rupay.com, sendmoneyorder.com, stamps , Stormpay, wmtransfer.com, xcoin.com

If you set up that auction site, it would only be a matter of time before your local TTA came for you, if they deem it "to big to continue".

Again, my suggestion is to contact Social Engineer to see if you can help him out in some way. Social Engineer's site could help identify potential agorist trading partners without housing transaction information. A "trustworthiness" ranking system might be helpful here in terms of the actors integrity ratings, but that is about it. There would be no "Trusted Agorist Partner" checkmark :eek:

[gilliganscorner]

We ready for this yet?

[danda]

We ready for this yet?

People seemed pretty negative about my proposal and I didn't get a single "Yes, I would use that service", so i haven't spent any time on it.

[QueenB4Liberty]

bump :cool:

[mediahasyou]

Statist or not, liberty lovers must practice Agorism.

For when the American colonists attacked the English State through Agorism, England removed taxation.

[gilliganscorner]

Statist or not, liberty lovers must practice Agorism.

For when the American colonists attacked the English State through Agorism, England removed taxation.

It is the only non violent mechanism that stands a non-zero chance of success.

[mediahasyou]

The time has come when the market crashes. The government will severely lack funding which will cripple their enforcement abilities. It's time to move beyond government. Become a better person.

[RevolutionSD]

The time has come when the market crashes. The government will severely lack funding which will cripple their enforcement abilities. It's time to move beyond government. Become a better person.

Exactly!

And to enhance your sig quote:

"And the government that governs least is no government at all."
-Revolution SD

The idea that we need a government to "run" the country or our lives in any way is childish and we are way overdo to move past this idea.

[gilliganscorner]

The time has come when the market crashes. The government will severely lack funding which will cripple their enforcement abilities. It's time to move beyond government. Become a better person.

Agreed, in theory. You know it. I know it. Many on this board knows it. The subversion of individual liberties and encroachment on our freedoms by the Statists did not happen overnight. Likewise, to turn around and move away from Statism will not happen overnight.

Agorism does not depend on us spending our time and energies trying to convince John Q. Public that we are "right". You cannot bring a horse to knowledge and make it think. 12-13 years in State indoctrination camps we call "public education", a subverted media, and a $600 Billion dollar a year advertising industry trying to pry the want for products we don't need into our skulls has all but ensured critical thinking skills have been lobotomized. You can try if you want, though. Your choice.

Agorism starts whenever you want it to. Choose your friends wisely.

[mediahasyou]

Exactly!

And to enhance your sig quote:

"And the government that governs least is no government at all."
-Revolution SD

The idea that we need a government to "run" the country or our lives in any way is childish and we are way overdo to move past this idea.

Well, that is what Mr. Jefferson is implying. ;)

[gilliganscorner]

Bump because of this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=168694).

[Feenix566]

12-13 years in State indoctrination camps we call "public education" ... has all but ensured critical thinking skills have been lobotomized.

...which is why we need School Choice. It's not as sexy nor as exciting to talk about as societal collapse, but school choice is the only path out of statism.

[gilliganscorner]

...which is why we need School Choice. It's not as sexy nor as exciting to talk about as societal collapse, but school choice is the only path out of statism.

Education is key, I agree. However, I am not waiting to try and convince everyone. Plan A is the agorist network. Plan B is educating the masses. I will always try to educate, but I won't wait for the eyes to open.

It is too hard. After public education, there is a 600 billion dollar a year advertising industry that hires gaggles of psychiatrists and psychologists that do nothing but try to pry the want for products you don't need into your skull. If you want to learn more about that, google "Century of Self". There is a 4 part movie you can download and see what I mean.

[mediahasyou]

Agorism in now more ready than ever in this economy. A state lacking funds and efficiency is a weak state that cannot bring Agorism down.

These newcomers should look at this thread: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1894527&postcount=17

[gilliganscorner]

bump `cuz of memories. Seems more timely than ever now.

[gilliganscorner]

Raising a cheer for the "Going Galt" movement ripping around the blogosphere and some mainstream press (http://washingtonindependent.com/32772/battling-obama-by-going-galt).

However, it focuses on physically extracting oneself from the country. Agorism lets you hide in plain sight.

[JVParkour]

Sounds very interesting.... I might list myself as resident grasscutter and garage cleaner... LOL

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I have advocated a virtual market cloning ebay/craigslist. I haven't elaborated a whole lot on it because nothing has gained any momentum yet. One way to go about it is to create an open source client application that utilizes a peer to peer database model for the market data. For instance:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:VhenB9_zeGgJ:www.nesc.ac.uk/talks/ahm2008/975.ppt+peer+to+peer+databases&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

[FunkBuddha]

Do you remember back in the day when we had BBSs? We used to have message board networks like FidoNet and FishNet where people could send mail around the world pre-internet.

The problem with networks like Tor and I2P is that they are incredibly slow. The bandwidth you get from these networks isn't feasible for graphic intensive web pages, but it would be just fine for text based traffic.

The cool thing about the anonymizing networks is that you can have anonymous servers setup on them as well. Anyone could run a simple BBS package that could connect up to our message board network. This solves the decentralization problem by having the message board replicated across many servers.

We would have to develop some sort of way to distribute a profile database between servers over the messaging system for the ranking system.

Sorry for the bad english... Just thinking out loud here.

So I started toying around with this idea again after the new cigarette tax was instated. I've setup two test BBSes that share a message board and exchange files over file echoes. All traffic between hosts is encrypted including inter-bbs traffic.

My idea here is to setup a message board for people to exchange goods and services as they please as well as a library (Bibliotheque Apocolyptica) for exchanging ebooks. Both the library and the message boards can be spanned out across multiple BBSes so if one site is taken down, the rest will remain up and communicating with one another.

I believe there is also functionality to setup a back channel IRC server so that users on different BBSes can communicate with one another. If there was ever a SHTF scenario and internet communications was shut down, users could communicate via packet radio or landlines.

Is anyone even interested in this idea? If not, I won't waste my time. I'd like to get 5 to 10 people interested in setting up their own BBS and getting people they know IRL to participate.

[Conza88]

http://www.mises.org/story/3412

Agorism - just, got, pwned.

[FunkBuddha]

http://www.mises.org/story/3412

Agorism - just, got, pwned.

Gotta love Murray... Agorism, to me, is nothing more than a way to be subversive and build business relationships in the communities that I chose to participate in.

I only scanned the essay but this argument doesn't hold up.


And there is another vital point here too. Konkin's entire theory speaks only to the interests and concerns of the marginal classes who are self-employed. The great bulk of the people are full-time wage workers; they are people with steady jobs. Konkinism has nothing whatsoever to say to these people. To adopt Konkin's strategy, then, would on this ground alone, serve up a dead end for the libertarian movement. We cannot win if there is no possibility of speaking to the concerns of the great bulk of wage earners in this and other countries.

It is the same thing with tax rebellion, which presumably serves as part of the agoric strategy. For once again, it is far easier for someone who doesn't earn a wage to escape the reporting of his income. It is almost impossible for wage earners, whose taxes are of course deducted off the top by the infamous withholding tax. Once again, it is impossible to convert wage workers to the idea of nonpayment of taxes because they literally have no choice. Konkin's airy dismissal of taxation as being in some sense voluntary again ignores the plight of the wage earner.

This argument makes the assumption that wage-earners who build cars for instance, can only build cars. They can't be shade-tree mechanics on the side or have a large garden or have any other skillset valuable to Agorist society.

Overall, from what I've read Murray makes great points as always. I'll read the rest of it tonight when I get home.

[Conza88]

Yeah, reading the whole article is probably advisable.. :)

[FunkBuddha]

I mostly agree with Rothbard in sections II, III, and IV. I disagree with his assertion that political action is the only effective means of achieving libertarian/anarchist goals. The Swadeshi movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swadeshi) ,for instance was very effective in India.

For example, I'm not trying to be subversive because I want to keep more of my money or because I have some delusion that it will destroy the state. My motivation is primarily moral and if I can facilitate a way for others who feel the same way to trade amongst each other without supporting the violent actions of the state then I will be successful in achieving my own personal goal.

If I can set up a model whereby others can easily join the network and facilitate trades within their community then they can be successful in achieving the same goals as well.

So, while I agree with Rothbard that as a method of changing the world into a libertarian utopia, the agorist approach is a bit naive, his belief that it can be accomplished politically is naive as well. I don't know what it will take, but it will likely be a combination of movements that finally roll the state.

That said, maybe the thread title should be "Swadeshi: Beat the State, show a profit, all in a non-violent way." Konkin seems to have lifted the main premise from Ghandi anyways.

[RevolutionSD]

I mostly agree with Rothbard in sections II, III, and IV. I disagree with his assertion that political action is the only effective means of achieving libertarian/anarchist goals. The Swadeshi movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swadeshi) ,for instance was very effective in India.

For example, I'm not trying to be subversive because I want to keep more of my money or because I have some delusion that it will destroy the state. My motivation is primarily moral and if I can facilitate a way for others who feel the same way to trade amongst each other without supporting the violent actions of the state then I will be successful in achieving my own personal goal.

If I can set up a model whereby others can easily join the network and facilitate trades within their community then they can be successful in achieving the same goals as well.

So, while I agree with Rothbard that as a method of changing the world into a libertarian utopia, the agorist approach is a bit naive, his belief that it can be accomplished politically is naive as well. I don't know what it will take, but it will likely be a combination of movements that finally roll the state.

That said, maybe the thread title should be "Swadeshi: Beat the State, show a profit, all in a non-violent way." Konkin seems to have lifted the main premise from Ghandi anyways.

Great post.

Sounds good to me. I'm interested. Perhaps we can also exchange in gold grams ala www.goldmoney.com.

[FunkBuddha]

Great post.

Sounds good to me. I'm interested. Perhaps we can also exchange in gold grams ala www.goldmoney.com.

Did you see the posts I made about the BBSes? I'm curious what other people think of the idea.

[gilliganscorner]

http://www.mises.org/story/3412

Agorism - just, got, pwned.

Did you read Konkin's reply (http://www.anthonyflood.com/konkinreplytorothbard.htm) to Rothbard?

I agree with both sides of the article, and the end goals are the same. There is no reason that we cannot work on Plan A (asking the State to help with the implementation of limiting the State?) AND work on Plan B (educating, developing, and building your Agorist networks). Isn't diversification key to any investing strategy?

Don't get me wrong. I consider Rothbard a giant; he has influenced my thinking immensely. However, I am not sure he was aware or cynical enough to be aware that all conventional avenues to political reform are already pwned by the Establishment. We all saw what happened to Ron Paul; how the incumbents marginalized, ridiculed, and suppressed his campaign.

[gilliganscorner]

So I started toying around with this idea again after the new cigarette tax was instated. I've setup two test BBSes that share a message board and exchange files over file echoes. All traffic between hosts is encrypted including inter-bbs traffic.

"File echoes"? What is the medium of traffic?


My idea here is to setup a message board for people to exchange goods and services as they please as well as a library (Bibliotheque Apocolyptica) for exchanging ebooks. Both the library and the message boards can be spanned out across multiple BBSes so if one site is taken down, the rest will remain up and communicating with one another.

I like the decentralized approach on this. How would this differ from a P2P client like Vuze or BitTorrent?


I believe there is also functionality to setup a back channel IRC server so that users on different BBSes can communicate with one another. If there was ever a SHTF scenario and internet communications was shut down, users could communicate via packet radio or landlines.

I wonder if the Internet isn't too big to fail now? Too many businesses depend on it.


Is anyone even interested in this idea? If not, I won't waste my time. I'd like to get 5 to 10 people interested in setting up their own BBS and getting people they know IRL to participate.

I am interesting in learning more about it.

[FunkBuddha]

"File echoes"? What is the medium of traffic?
Essentially the files are packed with an archiver such as pkzip and sent over the binkp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binkp) protocol. The authentication is handled by CRAM-MD5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAM-MD5) which may not be the most secure way to handle it but should be sufficient.



I like the decentralized approach on this. How would this differ from a P2P client like Vuze or BitTorrent?

The files are copied from point to point. If I have a file or a message that needs to go to multiple BBSes, I can either send it to each BBS or I can pass it to a hub which would then send it to the BBSes that connect to it. While it may not be the most efficient method, if the network is designed properly it can be very reliable. For example, FidoNet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidonet).




I wonder if the Internet isn't too big to fail now? Too many businesses depend on it.

This may be true... While it may not crash or be taken down, it may become untrusted as a means of secure communications.




I am interesting in learning more about it.

BBSes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system) are old school. They were very popular back in the late 80's and early 90's. There were huge public messaging networks such as FidoNet and several underground networks that were used for distributing copyrighted software. They were the original social networking sites.

[gilliganscorner]

Great post.

Sounds good to me. I'm interested. Perhaps we can also exchange in gold grams ala www.goldmoney.com.


Are you familar with what happened to e-gold.com (http://blog.e-gold.com/2008/07/a-new-beginning.html) since they were busted by the State to protect us from terrorists/criminals/kiddie porn a.k.a people who were trading outside of the taxation/inflation system to protect their personal wealth to prevent the State from siphoning off their wealth?

[dr. hfn]

Write for your college paper! I make $10 an article...11 published so far...on my C4L account

[FunkBuddha]

not crash or be taken down, it may become untrusted as a means of secure communications.


Sorry for quoting myself but this (http://www.roguegovernment.com/index.php?news_id=15140) kinda proves my point.

[gilliganscorner]

Sorry for quoting myself but this (http://www.roguegovernment.com/index.php?news_id=15140) kinda proves my point.

Wow. It's amazing the lengths they'll go to keep the taxation/inflation system going. All that rhetoric. Just in case some wise asses develop an agorist network. You know they are getting worried, Funk.

Up here in Canada, looky at the new contest we got running with our CRA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q3ivuI3l24) (the Canadian equivalent of the IRS). I consider this good news!

[FunkBuddha]

Wow. It's amazing the lengths they'll go to keep the taxation/inflation system going. All that rhetoric. Just in case some wise asses develop an agorist network. You know they are getting worried, Funk.


Considering there are now 10GB deep packet inspection devices now available for ISPs and the little incident in San Francisco (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/04/70619)a few years ago, some form of hard core encryption is a must. I'd love to be able setup either SSL tunnels or site to site VPN tunnels between BBSes for data transfer.





Up here in Canada, looky at the new contest we got running with our CRA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q3ivuI3l24) (the Canadian equivalent of the IRS). I consider this good news!

Ha! Yeah, I saw that. The underground economy in Canada has to be getting out of control for them to go on a propaganda campaign.

[gilliganscorner]

Considering there are now 10GB deep packet inspection devices now available for ISPs and the little incident in San Francisco (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/04/70619)a few years ago, some form of hard core encryption is a must. I'd love to be able setup either SSL tunnels or site to site VPN tunnels between BBSes for data transfer.

Absolutely. I wonder though if the so-called "unbreakable" algorithms widely (or not so-widely) used today would be pulled off the shelf if they were REALLY unbreakable. What I mean is that if the State REALLY couldn't break it, would it be pulled out of use via the standard propaganda channels, "OMFG! Oh noes! That <insert form of cryptography here> is being used by terrorists/criminals/kiddie pornsters!"



Ha! Yeah, I saw that. The underground economy in Canada has to be getting out of control for them to go on a propaganda campaign.

I think so. Man I never knew my fellow Canadians would put their beers down and turn hockey off long enough to overcome their apathy to run an underground economy. Most of the people I know, except for the ones in business, actually would rat on you if they thought you were avoiding being extorted by the State. :( They would have made good Nazis...but tell them that...hoo boy.

[StilesBC]

Gilligan/Tax Me/Remnant,

I'll be returning home in a few months. We should have a chat...

[gilliganscorner]

Gilligan/Tax Me/Remnant,

I'll be returning home in a few months. We should have a chat...

Shhhh. Matt. Don't blow my cover. ;)

We should. Where's home? PM me if you'd like. BTW, I'm blogging again, but not as much as I'd like too. For what its worth, I enjoy your blog as well.

[gilliganscorner]

bumpage due to the ever increasing size of the State since it was last bumped.

[presence]

bumpage for gilliganscorner


This could lead to the most significant value to members of this forum.

[r3volution 3.0]

Agorism isn't a good strategy for weakening the state.

It can only exploit the state's existing weaknesses; it's not going to result in significantly smaller government.

The USSR was an agorist paradise, with all the black market activity going on, and yet not such a nice or libertarian place to live, eh?

I mean, if you want to practice agorism, have at it, just be aware of the limitations.

[presence]

Slowly and steadily, the counter-economy results in infrastructural substitution, the replacement of the increasingly atrophic state with networks of voluntarily cooperating and trading individuals. As Konkin’s close friend, the novelist and filmmaker J. Neil Schulman, put it, “Seeking that tipping point in a Starvation Curve is the revolutionary strategy of Agorism in a nutshell.”http://www.libertarianism.org/columns/black-market-activism-samuel-edward-konkin-iii-agorism