Massachusetts Paul delegates voted for McCain??

[devil21]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/politics/2008/view.bg?articleid=1117016&srvc=rss



In a last-minute show of unity, Bay State Ron Paul supporters decided to throw their votes behind Sen. John McCain last night.

About a dozen Massachusetts supporters of the Texas Congressman and GOP upstart decided to back McCain only an hour before the delegates began to cast votes for the presidential pick.

“We decided the best course of action was to give a little to get a lot,” said Chris Blanc, a Cambridge resident who supports Paul. “The Massachusetts GOP really wanted to show unanimous support.”

Paul, shunned by the Republican convention because he wouldn’t endorse McCain, has been holding daily “counter rallies” in Minnesota where devoted supporters hiss when McCain’s name is uttered.

Rep. Paul Loscocco (R-Holliston) worked with Paul sympathizers to join the delegation so all 43 delegate votes would go to McCain.

“He really worked well behind the scenes to come to this agreement,” said McCain delegate Jack Roy.

McCain will make his acceptance speech tonight surrounded by those supportive delegates on a newly constructed stage. He plans to focus on how he plans to lead the country and highlight the differences between he and Democratic opponent Barack Obama, said Mark Salter, a McCain campaign official who helped write the speech.

McCain’s wife Cindy will also be speaking, as will Secretary of Homeland Security head Tom Ridge.

Delegates will also vote to nominate Alaskan Gov. Sarah Palin as the party’s GOP vice presidential pick.

Can anybody verify this? Seems unlikely and pretty surprising to me.

[Zera]

What? By the way he says it, it's as if they're going to get something in return. What, an insignia of damnation?

[Sematary]

What? By the way he says it, it's as if they're going to get something in return. What, an insignia of damnation?

If they made a deal with the devil, then they screwed up. I don't care WHAT they think they got in return. RON PAUL would NEVER support that neocon bastard and his supporters who did should be ashamed of themselves. I expected fireworks from the Ron Paul delegates and we got back room deals? I'm disgusted.

[Badger Paul]

Look I'm as pissed as anyone about this but if they have arrangements or deals for something they've worked out, if they feel they've made progress in the party, that's fine. That's politics. We can't control what goes on in Massachusetts and at least in this case they treated the delegates like adults.

I just wish they let know what was going on. I wish everyone did.

[haaaylee]

give a little to get a lot?

what does that even mean.

unless getting McCain is a a lot ......

Ugh.

[Sematary]

Look I'm as pissed as anyone about this but if they have arrangements or deals for something they've worked out, if they feel they've made progress in the party, that's fine. That's politics. We can't control what goes on in Massachusetts and at least in this case they treated the delegates like adults.

I just wish they let know what was going on. I wish everyone did.

We CANNOT defeat the GOP by playing THEIR GAME. We need to get big enough to make them play OUR GAME.

[Roxi]

this makes what chris dyer told me about being let down by people they thought were on their side make a lot more sense

[Sematary]

this makes what chris dyer told me about being let down by people they thought were on their side make a lot more sense

Yep - but who's Chris dyer?

[Orgoonian]

I think it would be best to wait,and see what the people representing the Mass.delegation have to say.
Either way,they are the ones who worked for their positions,and therefore the right to make any deals they saw fit.

I thought our goal was to influence policy,and change from within.We cannot do that if we are constantly thumbing our nose at the power structure,and then raging that we have no voice.
As much as i hate to point out the obvious;In this day,and age,sometimes you have to play the game.
We have a much better chance for success if we can manage to infiltrate,and change hearts,and minds through example.

[Sematary]

I think it would be best to wait,and see what the people representing the Mass.delegation have to say.
Either way,they are the ones who worked for their positions,and therefore the right to make any deals they saw fit.

I thought our goal was to influence policy,and change from within.We cannot do that if we are constantly thumbing our nose at the power structure,and then raging that we have no voice.
As much as i hate to point out the obvious;In this day,and age,sometimes you have to play the game.
We have a much better chance for success if we can manage to infiltrate,and change hearts,and minds through example.

The ONLY deal that would have been acceptable would have been a speech by Dr. Paul at the RNC. At least THEN we would have heard the word CONSTITUTION!!

[Orgoonian]

The ONLY deal that would have been acceptable would have been a speech by Dr. Paul at the RNC. At least THEN we would have heard the word CONSTITUTION!!

I hear ya,i really do,and i wish that was the way it played out.
All i'm saying is that we have a long tough road ahead.We are armed with our ideals,and principals,and we know we are right.Heck,i bet we have a lot more sympathy in the G.O.P than we realize,but we will never get those people on our side if we continue to antagonize them.

[pauletteNV]

this makes what chris dyer told me about being let down by people they thought were on their side make a lot more sense

I have no doubt that Sue Lowden, et al, made some promises or something to the Ron Paul delegates which made it seem reasonable to vote for McCain...then, possibly reneged and this might very well have happened in other states. Seeing what the machine can do and now they can manipulate, I believe all of these steps were very well choreographed to get the desired result and appearance they wanted. Sometimes when you are there, it seems so reasonable...workable, and then bam you realize you feel into it.

[grizzums]

Nevadans did the same.... (http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080904/NEWS19/809040357/1232)


...hope they liked the "Rage" show - :rolleyes:

I do think trying to form some sort of alliances is not a bad idea, but who can trust the party at this point?

I like Gov. Palin in some areas and not others but will not make pull that lever unless their is some sort of attempt to "reach out" by the ticket (of which I know is far fetched). I still cannot get myself to vote for Barr and am lukewarm to Baldwin.

If nothing else, I'm still writing the good Dr. in and walking away with a clean conscience.

[devil21]

Nevadans did the same.... (http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080904/NEWS19/809040357/1232)


...hope they liked the "Rage" show - :rolleyes:

I do think trying to form some sort of alliances is not a bad idea, but who can trust the party at this point?

I like Gov. Palin in some areas and not others but will not make pull that lever unless their is some sort of attempt to "reach out" by the ticket (of which I know is far fetched). I still cannot get myself to vote for Barr and am lukewarm to Baldwin.

If nothing else, I'm still writing the good Dr. in and walking away with a clean conscience.

WTF? Why did people work so hard to be elected delegates and get their voices heard if they were just going to roll over to the party at the last minute just to make nicey nice? And I thought the RNC just ignored RP's Nevada delegates. Guess not. Im disappointed.

[Mortikhi]

Hmm, interesting.

I guess there's nothing more to say other than fuck you, you backstabbers.

[Sematary]

Nevadans did the same.... (http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080904/NEWS19/809040357/1232)


...hope they liked the "Rage" show - :rolleyes:

I do think trying to form some sort of alliances is not a bad idea, but who can trust the party at this point?

I like Gov. Palin in some areas and not others but will not make pull that lever unless their is some sort of attempt to "reach out" by the ticket (of which I know is far fetched). I still cannot get myself to vote for Barr and am lukewarm to Baldwin.

If nothing else, I'm still writing the good Dr. in and walking away with a clean conscience.

The McCain ticket can NEVER have a Ron Paul supporter vote. They are neocons and will destroy our liberties.

[Sematary]

WTF? Why did people work so hard to be elected delegates and get their voices heard if they were just going to roll over to the party at the last minute just to make nicey nice? And I thought the RNC just ignored RP's Nevada delegates. Guess not. Im disappointed.

I'm pissed. Disappointed doesn't even BEGIN to describe what I feel about Paul supporters just giving up. So much for the revolution, huh?

[nate895]

The McCain ticket can NEVER have a Ron Paul supporter vote. They are neocons and will destroy our liberties.

I'd have voted for McCain at the convention if they would have let Ron Paul speak.

[Sematary]

I'd have voted for McCain at the convention if they would have let Ron Paul speak.

THAT, I agree (as I said in another post), would have been the ONLY acceptable reason to give up the vote for Dr. Paul. I feel betrayed.

[Mortikhi]

Mass delegates and how they voted. Dont know which ones were Paul supporters originally because they stabbed us in the back and went mccain

http://www.massgop.com/convention.aspx

[Orgoonian]

Since when do we trust the media to tell the whole truth?
I will wait to see what the NV.delegates have to say before judging.
After all the work,money,and time they put in,i really doubt they rolled over for some Rage tickets:eek:

Lets say it was true that they had the choice to vote either McWar,or abstain.
Two choices,two different results.
1.I abstain.Great,you were going to lose anyways,and you walk away with nothing.
2.I will vote McWar.Yuck,that tasted horrible,but i have made inroads,that may pay off in the future.

We can't win THEIR game,playing by our rules.Once we have sufficient numbers "inside"then WE make the rules.

[Sematary]

Mass delegates and how they voted. Dont know which ones were Paul supporters originally because they stabbed us in the back and went mccain

http://www.massgop.com/convention.aspx

Whatever Mass. and Nevada agreed to in order for the GOP to get this vote wasn't worth it. They would have had to take my life in order to get my vote. Man, I wish I could have been a delegate.

[Mortikhi]

Since when do we trust the media to tell the whole truth?
I will wait to see what the NV.delegates have to say before judging.
After all the work,money,and time they put in,i really doubt they rolled over for some Rage tickets:eek:

Lets say it was true that they had the choice to vote either McWar,or abstain.
Two choices,two different results.
1.I abstain.Great,you were going to lose anyways,and you walk away with nothing.
2.I will vote McWar.Yuck,that tasted horrible,but i have made inroads,that may pay off in the future.

We can't win THEIR game,playing by our rules.Once we have sufficient numbers "inside"then WE make the rules.
Yeh, that'll happen :rolleyes:

Once they got the vote they wanted, they didn't give two tits about the Ron Paul delegates.

Good job on the inroads. :mad:

[Orgoonian]

Yeh, that'll happen :rolleyes:

Once they got the vote they wanted, they didn't give two tits about the Ron Paul delegates.

Good job on the inroads. :mad:


A patriot can hope :D

[Kilrain]

I would very much like to get some more information about what happened with certain delegations, Nevada and Utah come to mind. If we could get info from the delegates themselves, that would be great. Until we do, it's all just speculation.

Anyway, props to all the states that casted votes for Dr. Paul. Alaska, Oregon, Washington and West Virginia actually did (IIRC), and I'm sure a lot of the "missing" votes from other states were his, too. States like Maine, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Idaho and so on. And let's not forget that there were Paul supporters who were obligated to cast their votes for McCain at the convention. We all appreciate your efforts.

[Shotdown1027]

These delegates voted for the guy who was already going to win--costing us nothing. And likely, they got alot of goodwill from the gesture and possibly recieved promises of support for certain campaigns (for State Rep. or mayor SmallTown, MA). This is how politics works, and you'd better believe that Ron Paul plays it...

[Kilrain]

These delegates voted for the guy who was already going to win--costing us nothing. And likely, they got alot of goodwill from the gesture and possibly recieved promises of support for certain campaigns (for State Rep. or mayor SmallTown, MA). This is how politics works, and you'd better believe that Ron Paul plays it...

Yeah, you're probably right, but what about Nevada, then? That situation has been FUBAR for quite some time and how can anyone trust "the establishment" to honor any commitments or show goodwill when you consider what they pulled there? Mind you, there could be something I don't know about, but from what I've been told, the GOP establishment in Nevada is a bunch of /!#(=)&!#()& who went out of their way to bend/break the rules and stifle dissent.

[josh24601]

Goodwill and 50 cents buys you a newspaper.

That was a stupid thing to do.

[RCA]

Maybe they weren't Ron Paul supporters.

[Kilrain]

Goodwill and 50 cents buys you a newspaper.

That was a stupid thing to do.

If there were any real concessions or genuine offers of support made, then I can kinda understand it. I wasn't there and therefore I really can't say all that much about it, but I sure am curious. Personally, I don't really trust party bigwigs...

[MozoVote]

There _might_ be some backroom discussion among the state delegations to the effect that "we all know McCain is a stiff, just put up with it 3 more months, after he loses we will clean house".

The dynamics in each state is different. But I agree, I would not trust establishment pols to keep their word.

[Badger Paul]

Here's the update on what happened in Nevada with each deleagtes explanation as to why they voted for McCain:


Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:
Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

"Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."
And so the great delegate fight finally comes to an end.

Carl Bunce explains his vote for McCain:
Quote:
We were censored and pressured. Period! We have been followed and surrounded by security everywhere we go in MN. We got treated as children the entire time by NV GOP leadership. . We gave the NV GOP their 34 delegates.

Nick Vanderpool (Delegate Organizer) earned our votes or I should say our absense of principles because he talked to us like an adult and not like a spoiled child stomping his feet. He has my respect and NV will not suffer the disfavor of the RNC overlords now. We may be able save our party with much work and talking outloud instead of secret whispers in back rooms.

That is the last olive branch! If we (Freedom Minded Republicans) do not receive any respect starting tomorrow, they (Anyone but Freedom Minded Republicans) will all have a hard time doing anything politically in NV without us on their ass on every issue.

We have learned their game and their tactics. We have out-played them at every step of the way. But when the rules change on a moments notice then we can not play anymore. We must improvise! As we have. NV will have its day in the future. No one is giving up! This is a rigged game and we see that clearer the ever now!

We are still processing all the happenings of this week. We have a lot of intel on the corruption seeded at the national level.

Meeting with other state delegations gave us so much info on other tactics we have not seen yet in NV.

More to come...

Carl Bunce

Arden Osborne explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:I was only asked 'how I would vote' there never was a real vote. no ballot.

My response when asked was that since I had no candidate in the race (there
was only one nominee) I said I would abstain. When I was approached again
and told that I would be the only one keeping the vote from being unanimous,
we then discussed allowing an alternate to vote in my place since I had no
candidate, but that was that - there was no actual vote.

What anyone who is not here may not understand is that this convention was
a staged show. There was nothing to gain by being disrupting the
coronation...There was everything to gain for the future of our movement by
abstaining. Our win was our presence, our loss would have been throwing that
win away by closing the door to the party.

It's easy to criticize from the sidelines, but unless you were here to see
that there was nothing that could have been done that would even be
perceived as a good sign of protest (the mikes were guarded) - then you
can't really see the whole picture.

Lisa Marie Johnson explains her vote for McCain

Quote:
We did what was right so we could "fight for another day" as Arden said. Yes, Arden was going to abstain. Carl and Chris considered it too. So did I when I finally was seated.

I repeat, there was no official voting for Ron Paul. Some state leaders were just nice enough to allow their people to have that spoken and then took them away for the final count. The didn't show that on tv. Only Alaska, VP Palin's state, was allowed to mysteriously have their RP votes on the final tally. Same thing for Romney. I know because I stayed till the final gavel.

Abstaining would have been pissing on the party just to make a point rather than admitting the loss we all knew we had days if not weeks earlier. Where would that get us?

They had to come to us, finally, and basically admit we could make them look bad to be spitefull or let them look good to the RNC and earn some respect in a graceful defeat. I know it hurts. Believe me or don't, but it's been the worst birthday I've ever had. But we still learned a lot and if you throw us aside, you throw that knowledge aside also.

In the end, we know, however difficult it was last night and will be for some time, we did what we know in our hearts to be good for the future of our movement. That is a vote for Ron Paul. Pissing away everyone's hard work would have been the end of all of us. That's the reality.

You may say it doesn't matter because I didn't vote for him. But the fact is he wasn't nominated. You can't vote for someone who isn't nominated. I understand your anger. I'd probably feel the same if I wasn't there. It didn't change the nomination. From here on out, those of us who act respectable will be treated with respect. We've earned that, all of us, but it was the delegates who you elected, who delivered it to you, even though you can't see that now.

What kind of advocates for liberty are they if they cannot make a simple argument or negotiate an agreement to abstain or vote for Paul on the first ballot when it would be entirely symbolic and do no harm at all.

[Kilrain]

Thanks for the post, Badger. I'm sure it must have been a tough situation for the delegates. Based on what I read there, we really should be even more grateful that some states (Washington, Oregon, West Virginia, Alaska) actually mentioned their Ron Paul votes.

[BeFranklin]

This happened in our state district. A couple of moles took over "leadership" of the ron paul voters and threw the election.

Problems of informal spontenous movements forming I suppose.

[pebcak]

I would very much like to get some more information about what happened with certain delegations, Nevada and Utah come to mind. If we could get info from the delegates themselves, that would be great. Until we do, it's all just speculation.

Anyway, props to all the states that casted votes for Dr. Paul. Alaska, Oregon, Washington and West Virginia actually did (IIRC), and I'm sure a lot of the "missing" votes from other states were his, too. States like Maine, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Idaho and so on. And let's not forget that there were Paul supporters who were obligated to cast their votes for McCain at the convention. We all appreciate your efforts.

There were also 2 votes for Paul from Nebraska, but they didn't get included in the roll call!

[Matt Davidson]

Hello all,

First I'd like to thank all the supporters who came out to the caucuses across Massachusetts and especially in the eigth district (Boston) where we swept our caucuses. If every RP supporter across the nation had committed to this level, I think we could have had enough stealth RP delegates to get this nomination.

My story is here for all to judge. I'm just going to give the facts here. I think you can judge for yourself about how we handled this. There is a lot of speculation also, which I may post later after verified.

We came into town Monday night and were invited to a GOP reception which was followed by a RP reception across town. At the GOP reception we gathered near a replica of air force one along with many RP delegates from other states. We decided to start a Ron Paul chant while streaming out to ruffle some feathers. It worked :).

We arrived at the RP reception with a plan hatched by Chris Blanc, who was quoted above and Todd Fay, who was Chris's alternate. We got in the reception and listened to Dr. Paul. After the speech we had a supporter who was going to go along with the plan take the mic and announce a meeting outside the hall. Drew Ivers took the mic not long after this and started to announce that he wanted people to stick around and listen to him and Jesse Benton.

The purpose of our meeting in the courtyard was to plan to nominate RP for president, which the campaign had given up on for a long time. We understood the rules of the roll call vote, which stated that RP could not be nominated or placed on the ballot of choices for the roll call vote for all states without the support of the majority of five delegations. We identified the ten smallest delegations and assigned delegates from across the country to approach delegates from these delegations with petitions for placing RP on the ballot. This was understood to be a Hail Mary, but we were not going to give up. We went nuts on the floor on Tuesday trying to get these petitions signed.

The people from the WA delegation were actually able to get the support of the majority of the virgin islands delegation, but our luck stopped there.

We were not able to get RP placed on the ballot for all states. Some states were legally required to report the votes of RP supporters who were legally bound to RP, but most states were not. In Massachusetts, most of us were bound by state law to McCain. We were only given the option of McCain or abstain.

When asked about my vote by my party chairman, I was given the option of McCain or abstain. Knowing there would be legal issues, I told him I was to abstain. Every Ron Paul delegate from Massachusetts initially voted to abstain. This started a shitstorm on the floor behind the wolf blitzer tent. We told them we wanted RP to speak on and have full floor access which he had been denied by the convention. They called in a Rep from the McCain campaign who told us that we could make a deal. If we got all the delegates for RP from all states united to vote for McCain, we could potentially have recognition for RP from the stage (maybe not RP but perhaps a grassroots supporter). We called as many delegates from other states to meet, and we decided not to take the deal. The reason for this was that we were unable to contact anyone from the campaign to advise us or to tell us that RP was willing to speak. No one answered their phones... I personally told everyone that we had to make the decision without the campaign (since I don't trust them anyway), but this was not the majority opinion.

During the meeting we were surrounded by a massive goon squad with ear pieces listening and typing everything we said. We had the sergeant at arms harassing our people trying to steal our list of RP delegates from all states. We had interns surrounding us with fake homemade signs to hide us from the media. We broke the meeting with the resolution to negotiate on the state level.

I can't speak for what happened in other states, but I do not expect anyone was given tickets to the rage concert... Many people had tickets already and wanted to go instead of being on the floor or anywhere near the propaganda festival.

For our state, we worked out a deal which was by no means unanimous. There was much dissent, but I think most of the people who did not agree are now realizing that we did the best we could do. Most of us gave our votes to alternates rather than abstaining.

Now for my interpretation:

To us, eight abstentions which would likely not have been reported was of less value than cooperation with the party in helping to get a meetup director on the State Committee, getting RP supporters on town commitees and formally welcoming us into the party. This puts us in a position to elect more RP supporters to the state committee for the upcoming election cycle, and if we fully activate all our supporters in the state we can own this committee, period. In the next presidential elections, Massachusetts can have 100% delegates for Ron Paul or a similar candidate without a doubt in my mind. Had we not made this deal, the party would have likely opposed us illegally every step of the way. We have an agreement in writing from our state party granting us several things that have already and will bring us much closer to our goals in Massachusetts. To get this, we worked with people in the party who supported Pat Buchanan in prior presidential runs, and a man on the national platform committee who struck a clause in support of the North American Union on our insistence. These party people are extremely happy. I believe they're happy not because of the unanimous vote as much as the prospect of having us in the party in the future.

Other delegates have voiced their approval of this deal, having achieved nothing in their states except getting totally ostracized. You can decide what you think for yourself though.

[Matt Davidson]

FYI this is a blog positing by an influential party member here in MA

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/massvoices/2008/09/the_revolution_continues_unite.html

[Truth Warrior]

Massachusetts Paul delegates voted for McCain??

What would have changed if they hadn't? :rolleyes:

[Mortikhi]

I think you delegates ate a shit sandwich.

Die in a fire, the lot of you.

[Kilrain]

Text

Thanks for a very good post! I don't know enough to judge anything, but I appreciate your effort. Don't let people discourage you. I probably wouldn't have been able to do what you did (too hotblooded), but it may have been the best choice, given the circumstances.

[musicmax]

RON PAUL would NEVER support that neocon bastard.

McSame has never been a liberal, therefore he is not a "neocon." Please get your epithets correct.

[musicmax]

Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:
Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

"Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."

What a dickless asshole. As a delegate you are REPRESENTING HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN YOUR STATE WHO CAST VOTES. And you betray them for a fucking CONCERT?

[SnappleLlama]

There's really no good reason why they had to hand their votes to McCain. No one forced them to do anything.

[BarryDonegan]

Here's the update on what happened in Nevada with each deleagtes explanation as to why they voted for McCain:


Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:
Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

"Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."
And so the great delegate fight finally comes to an end.

Carl Bunce explains his vote for McCain:
Quote:
We were censored and pressured. Period! We have been followed and surrounded by security everywhere we go in MN. We got treated as children the entire time by NV GOP leadership. . We gave the NV GOP their 34 delegates.

Nick Vanderpool (Delegate Organizer) earned our votes or I should say our absense of principles because he talked to us like an adult and not like a spoiled child stomping his feet. He has my respect and NV will not suffer the disfavor of the RNC overlords now. We may be able save our party with much work and talking outloud instead of secret whispers in back rooms.

That is the last olive branch! If we (Freedom Minded Republicans) do not receive any respect starting tomorrow, they (Anyone but Freedom Minded Republicans) will all have a hard time doing anything politically in NV without us on their ass on every issue.

We have learned their game and their tactics. We have out-played them at every step of the way. But when the rules change on a moments notice then we can not play anymore. We must improvise! As we have. NV will have its day in the future. No one is giving up! This is a rigged game and we see that clearer the ever now!

We are still processing all the happenings of this week. We have a lot of intel on the corruption seeded at the national level.

Meeting with other state delegations gave us so much info on other tactics we have not seen yet in NV.

More to come...

Carl Bunce

Arden Osborne explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:I was only asked 'how I would vote' there never was a real vote. no ballot.

My response when asked was that since I had no candidate in the race (there
was only one nominee) I said I would abstain. When I was approached again
and told that I would be the only one keeping the vote from being unanimous,
we then discussed allowing an alternate to vote in my place since I had no
candidate, but that was that - there was no actual vote.

What anyone who is not here may not understand is that this convention was
a staged show. There was nothing to gain by being disrupting the
coronation...There was everything to gain for the future of our movement by
abstaining. Our win was our presence, our loss would have been throwing that
win away by closing the door to the party.

It's easy to criticize from the sidelines, but unless you were here to see
that there was nothing that could have been done that would even be
perceived as a good sign of protest (the mikes were guarded) - then you
can't really see the whole picture.

Lisa Marie Johnson explains her vote for McCain

Quote:
We did what was right so we could "fight for another day" as Arden said. Yes, Arden was going to abstain. Carl and Chris considered it too. So did I when I finally was seated.

I repeat, there was no official voting for Ron Paul. Some state leaders were just nice enough to allow their people to have that spoken and then took them away for the final count. The didn't show that on tv. Only Alaska, VP Palin's state, was allowed to mysteriously have their RP votes on the final tally. Same thing for Romney. I know because I stayed till the final gavel.

Abstaining would have been pissing on the party just to make a point rather than admitting the loss we all knew we had days if not weeks earlier. Where would that get us?

They had to come to us, finally, and basically admit we could make them look bad to be spitefull or let them look good to the RNC and earn some respect in a graceful defeat. I know it hurts. Believe me or don't, but it's been the worst birthday I've ever had. But we still learned a lot and if you throw us aside, you throw that knowledge aside also.

In the end, we know, however difficult it was last night and will be for some time, we did what we know in our hearts to be good for the future of our movement. That is a vote for Ron Paul. Pissing away everyone's hard work would have been the end of all of us. That's the reality.

You may say it doesn't matter because I didn't vote for him. But the fact is he wasn't nominated. You can't vote for someone who isn't nominated. I understand your anger. I'd probably feel the same if I wasn't there. It didn't change the nomination. From here on out, those of us who act respectable will be treated with respect. We've earned that, all of us, but it was the delegates who you elected, who delivered it to you, even though you can't see that now.

What kind of advocates for liberty are they if they cannot make a simple argument or negotiate an agreement to abstain or vote for Paul on the first ballot when it would be entirely symbolic and do no harm at all.

this is the same justification republican congressmen give when they vote for bigger government.

I don't care if they kick you out of your state party. we'll send someone else next time.

this was poor judgement, do not send these guys as your delegate next time.

obviously you cannot change a party by joining them and becoming them.

[thx1149]

this is the same justification republican congressmen give when they vote for bigger government.

I don't care if they kick you out of your state party. we'll send someone else next time.

this was poor judgement, do not send these guys as your delegate next time.

obviously you cannot change a party by joining them and becoming them.

You have to play the game. I think they made a decent move. They had more to gain by going with McCain then against him. This will allow us to keep growing within the party instead of being further locked out.

I don't see this as being similar to the congressmen justifying their big government votes. In those situations their vote actually means something. In this case a vote was nothing more than a symbol, and even if they voted for Paul or abstained, the symbol wasn't going to be heard or effect anything. I think that makes it quite different than your metaphor.

[KenInMontiMN]

Someone send Dr. Paul the memo. Give your vote to the majority when it isn't going to make the difference anyway, Doc. Surprised he hasn't figured that one out yet, after all these years.

Then again, he may continue anyway to vote his principles with integrity and consistency anyway. What foolishness??

The battle at hand for any state that is either winner-take-all and/or binds delegates by way of primaries is to put an end to that nonsense in your state party constitution or state statutes once and for all, so you're never in that position again. Until then vote your principles anyway. Or abstain if that option doesn't exist.

Winner take all and primary-bound delegates feeds directly into top down power structure's continued strength; it offers no reward for grassroots activism beyond showing up and pulling the lever in the booth. Unbound delegates selected by conventions is the only way to go if there's to be hope of grassroots telling the brass how it's going to be.

[Rhys]

Massachusetts had such great potential in the 1700's. It's been all downhill from there.

We get searched and seized by the Secret Service... and they think we gained something by them whimping out.

[Chiznaddy]

Someone send Dr. Paul the memo. Give your vote to the majority when it isn't going to make the difference anyway, Doc. Surprised he hasn't figured that one out yet, after all these years.

Then again, he may continue anyway to vote his principles with integrity and consistency anyway. What foolishness??

The battle at hand for any state that is either winner-take-all and/or binds delegates by way of primaries is to put an end to that nonsense in your state party constitution or state statutes once and for all, so you're never in that position again. Until then vote your principles anyway. Or abstain if that option doesn't exist.

Winner take all and primary-bound delegates feeds directly into top down power structure's continued strength; it offers no reward for grassroots activism beyond showing up and pulling the lever in the booth. Unbound delegates selected by conventions is the only way to go if there's to be hope of grassroots telling the brass how it's going to be.



Thank you.

Paul said himself he could have spoke at the convention (on Colbert), but would have had to sacrifice everything he believed in by supporting their agenda and John McCain.

[Starfield]

Maybe they weren't Ron Paul supporters.
Obviously. They voted for McCain so they were, by definition, McCain supporters.

I can understand how a delegate would throw in the towel and just abstain. Ron Paul himself had given up on the nomination. The place was a solid mass of cheering weirdos. etc. etc.

What I can't understand is how someone would go through the trouble of becoming a delegate and then actually vote for McCain. It makes zero sense. They do know Ron Paul's nickname, don't they? Dr. No? What would Dr. No do?

Yea, I was hoping for triple digits. At the least, I was hoping he would best his "official" pre-convention tally of 21. If you include the no-votes, maybe he did do that.

[ruggedindividualist]

I truly can't believe this whole sorry mess. The RNC was mean and pulling dirty tricks so you decided to PLAY BALL with them?? THAT'LL show'em! You voted as they wanted so the vote would be unanimous and McCAIN WOULD LOOK GOOD???? You made a "deal" the vague specifics of you can't say other than the pathetic dolt who traded his precious RP vote for concert tickets??? You bent over for them because they talked NICE to you??? I GUARANTEE they are laughing their a**** off at you spineless, gutless, useful idiots. What a principled bunch you are! Did you hand over all the information they wanted when they asked you so nice and made you feel so special??
Sickening. You are not Ron Paul supporters, you do not want liberty. You think they are going to hand you liberty if you ask real nice and play by their rules??
You were had. Too bad you were representing Dr Pauls supporters.

[RP4EVER]

Nobody has questioned what the North Dakota delegates did......we won 5 from the Caucuses
there and 6 others in the State Convention. Yet all 26 went to McCain

[Sematary]

Nobody has questioned what the North Dakota delegates did......we won 5 from the Caucuses
there and 6 others in the State Convention. Yet all 26 went to McCain

I'm certain that the gestapo like behavior against RP supporters and delegates had alot to do with what happened here.

[RP4EVER]

Then ND and the RNC violated their own rules. Since the 5 were bound to Paul on the first ballot.

Im not suprised but I would like to hear from an ND source about this

[SilentBull]

I think you delegates ate a shit sandwich.

Die in a fire, the lot of you.

You are an idtiot and worthless to the movement.

[Perium]

I don't understand after how many months of reading about how Dr Paul represents not bending your ideals, so many of our delegates would "bend their ideals" to vote for McCain. I hope after they realize what they have done, they feel ashamed.

[free.alive]

Nobody has questioned what the North Dakota delegates did......we won 5 from the Caucuses
there and 6 others in the State Convention. Yet all 26 went to McCain

I do know that the head of the North Dakota RP delegation was also either a chair of or at least on one of the committees, I think the rules committee.

He was in a strong position to engineer a vote for McCain.

More likely, however, it was Drew Ivers. Drew Ivers was the Ron Paul national delegation leader, appointed by the Campaign for Liberty and maybe Ron Paul himself.

I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

I was incensed. I tried to rationalize it and ended up just internalizing my disappointment since I knew we had at least 250 delegates and alternates, split roughly 50/50. That meant we should get Ron Paul maybe 10% of the vote after considering the forced abstentions resulting from bound delegates.

But no, the conciliatory message was made with principle left in the mud.

We must start preparing for the division of our movement in two ways -

Dominionism vs. Secularism

Pragmatism vs. Principle

Of course, you could reword the last one, invertebrates vs. vertebrates and I'd be fine with that.

Ron Paul rarely, if at all (considering is lonely voting record) compromises himself, at least in Congress and in his rhetoric.

The Real Politics Training School was a balls-to-the-wall class and motivational seminar on how and why NOT to compromise - ever - with our issues. Steadfast ruthlessness in defense of Liberty, forget mere extremism, was the message; how to eliminate the pragmatists was the lesson.

We shouldn't be surprised at the choices of the NV delegates - puppy-dog compromise was always present in their negotiations, or so it seemed in conversation with them and their helping hand. That's definitely not intended to take away from the hard work and fighting they did, but to put their compromise (which was really just surrender) in perspective.

The Massachusetts delegates are on their way to being 'digested' by the party and, while they're still our allies and even patriots today, they are at an increased risk of opposing Liberty in the coming years.

There is most of what I know, plus my two cents.

[TheTyke]

I feel like crying after reading this thread. As someone said, Ron Paul himself said that he'd be throwing away ALL his principles to support McCain.

What hope is left for our country if we give in to intimidations and coersion? This is NOT what our movement was about. Maybe they just didn't know what they were getting into.... and what you said about Lew Moore and Debbie Hopper is even more distressing. Gah...

[freelance]

I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

I was incensed. I tried to rationalize it and ended up just internalizing my disappointment since I knew we had at least 250 delegates and alternates, split roughly 50/50. That meant we should get Ron Paul maybe 10% of the vote after considering the forced abstentions resulting from bound delegates.

But no, the conciliatory message was made with principle left in the mud.

This is sickening!

If this is true, then it doesn't matter how many people chase Hannity down the street with snow balls or how many people scream "911 was an inside job." It doesn't matter how we comport ourselves, if, in the end, we are encouraged to just give in.

If this is true, what's the point of the past couple of years?

[Truth Warrior]

"The system is corrupt, beyond redemption, and is not worthy of my support!"

[devil21]

Debbie Hopper is a member of RPF. I'd like to hear her explanation of that. Im sure others would too.

I think Im coming to the realization that most of RP's campaign staff was loyal to the GOP, not Ron Paul. If they piss off the GOP who will they try to get jobs with in 2012? KEEP THAT IN MIND!! I think it's safe to say that no RP2008 paid staff member should be on the 2012 CFL candidate's staff. There are way too many instances of RP's staff doing the *wrong* things at the *wrong* times to put any faith at all in their dedication to any liberty-minded candidate in 2012.

[RP4EVER]

If the situation is true............I may have to find another candidate or liberty group to support. No sense working myself up and stressing myself to get people to vote for freedom candidates when the so called leaders are back stabbing us at every turn

[trapfive]

Giving a little.....

There's no way McCain loses the nomination, that makes the RP delegates from Mass. decision nothing more than a gesture of goodwill. They...WE...lose nothing!!
Can't get littlier then that.

Gain alot....If some establishment delegates are swayed just a little by these token gestures and listened to RP delegates on a personal level, remember these people share many of the same views we do, they just don't see it yet, when the crap hits the fan during the next 4 years, our people already involved in the process will be poised to gain.

Ron Paul has said he's chosen to work within the Republican party and has urged his followers to spread the message of freedom and liberty in the way they choose. Why can't you allow these people their opportunity to do that? You think they've spent all this time, effort and $$$ to abandon the cause?

Put down the ego a little and consider that your way may not be the only way. Trust your fellow patriots..

[SLSteven]

Giving a little.....

There's no way McCain loses the nomination, that makes the RP delegates from Mass. decision nothing more than a gesture of goodwill. They...WE...lose nothing!!
Can't get littlier then that.


We lose the increased attention to our movement and credibility that would have come with a bigger delegate count.

[ruggedindividualist]

We lose the increased attention to our movement and credibility that would have come with a bigger delegate count.

Exactly. Instead of sending a message of noncompromise, a message was sent that the votes could be had for promises of "goodwill", promises from creeps who have broken every rule they themselves made. What nice guys! People entrusted with a mission to vote for Ron Paul were handled like simpletons. Good grief!

I am still stunned.

[Micah Dardar]

It's no surprise to me to hear about Republicans lying. Anybody remember the 2000 election and the recount?

Gary Johnson was the first Republican that I trusted, then Ron Paul's message got to me. I still don't trust many Republicans, but now I don't trust Democrats anymore either. I think that we should all be careful who we trust. There are those Republicans that are so used to lying that they could easily lie their way into our movement.

[trapfive]

Watching the roll call was depressing as hell, I agree with you there. But I'm not a delegate, I wasn't there, I'm not going to start downgrading people because their efforts didn't live up to my expectations.

Dr. Paul has said the revolution has started and they, "the establishment", couldn't stop the message if they tried.
He should know, he's been at it for a lot longer than me. Now I'm joining him in the fight and I must acknowledge that it's going to be a long fight. Change does not happen overnight and it doesn't happen in one election.

We must join and fight not divide and fall. The machine is expecting the latter...let's disappoint them...ok

[pauletteNV]

Then ND and the RNC violated their own rules. Since the 5 were bound to Paul on the first ballot.

Im not suprised but I would like to hear from an ND source about this

The RNC has shown time and time again, that they do not believe in the rules. A delegate on dailypaul gave his vote over to McCain, again a goodwill gesture, and will be meeting the leadership to discuss more involvement for the liberty group and thinks this is just fine. By doing this and by saying that it is o.k. for the sake of goodwill to turn over your right as a delegate to present your vote as you represented you would, makes you little better than the inner circle, imo. I suggested he ask at this meeting what that group of RNC leadership was going to do to remedy the harm done to Dr. Paul and to individual liberties by their marginalization. He says that the RNC is fearful and they know they need us...so why wouldn't they allow even a couple of votes for Dr. Paul as a show of fairness?

[Orgoonian]

We lose the increased attention to our movement and credibility that would have come with a bigger delegate count.

What delegate count?:confused:

I have no doubt our people did the best that they could under the circumstances.
It's easy for people to sit at home,and be armchair quarterbacks,and deride the decisions made by others.We weren't there!
If anyone feels they could have done anything different,then by all means get off your asses,and become a delegate yourselves the next time around.

This constant bickering amongst ourselves lately is stupid,and un-productive.
I cannot help but wonder if we have been infiltrated by naysayers from other campaigns.

Don't be fooled;This is a long term project.If you don't have the temperment,and patience for this kind of movement,then spare yourself,and move on.
Learn to think long term.
Peace

[SLSteven]

What delegate count?:confused:

I have no doubt our people did the best that they could under the circumstances.
It's easy for people to sit at home,and be armchair quarterbacks,and deride the decisions made by others.We weren't there!
If anyone feels they could have done anything different,then by all means get off your asses,and become a delegate yourselves the next time around.

This constant bickering amongst ourselves lately is stupid,and un-productive.
I cannot help but wonder if we have been infiltrated by naysayers from other campaigns.

Don't be fooled;This is a long term project.If you don't have the temperment,and patience for this kind of movement,then spare yourself,and move on.
Learn to think long term.
Peace


I am not bickering. I do not even have an opinion on whether they did the right thing. I am just pointing out that we did lose something. Perhaps we gained more than we lost...I await the explanation from the MA delegates.

[Orgoonian]

I am not bickering. I do not even have an opinion on whether they did the right thing. I am just pointing out that we did lose something. Perhaps we gained more than we lost...I await the explanation from the MA delegates.

Not pointing a finger at you,forgive my poor writing skills:o
I actually agree with you here,just not the delegate count,witch the G.O.P made a moot point.

I am just getting worried about all the divisiveness i have seen lately.
Everyone attacking everyone:(

[MsDoodahs]

Drew Ivers and Debbie Hopper were the "delegate coordinator" for Ron Paul. I was not on the conference call, but in Minnesota they never once suggested we should vote for McCain.

They told us to be respectful rather than disruptive and to work the press with a positive message about what we want to accomplish rather than just trashing McCain.

They never told us who to vote for.

Lew Moore was hired by the RNC to keep the peace between RP delegates and the RNC. I spoke with him personally when that kid from Massachusetts (Cambridge Chris, they called him) was trying to get everyone from every state to vote for McCain in exchange for "some respect" from the RNC.

Even at that point, Lew did not advise us to vote for McCain. He told us to work with our state parties and do what was best for us within our own delegations.


You can reprint this in that thread, if you'd like.

Thank you, I will.

[SLSteven]

I am skeptical about negotiating with the RNC people. Apparently the Republican establishment valued the Paul MA delegate votes more than the "respect" that they gave in exchange. Only they would know the true value of the "respect."

[Michael Landon]

I understand everyone's anger but sometimes it's better in the long run to work along side your enemy to gain an advantage later on. Sometimes you'll lose a battle here and there but the most important thing is to win the war at the end.

While I, personally, would have fought long and hard to cast my vote for Ron Paul I understand what they were trying to accomplish and that is to ally themselves with the enemy, temporarily, so that they could keep their positions so they will be in better positions in the future for a takeover.

Remember, we allied ourselves with Stalin to defeat Hitler.

Cut them some slack.

- ML

[micahnelson]

If the plan of the C4L is to become involved in the GOP to reform it- then it will mean playing ball with the GOP. It will mean bending principles. Ron Paul is an exception- they have tried to oust him whenever they can.

Entering politics means compromising to make progress. We can point to Paul as a paragon of integrity- but has he ever gotten a bill signed into law? If you sleep with pigs its hard to stay clean. Reforming the GOP will be a dirty game.

I personally think we need to educate voters directly and circumvent the party system. I don't want to bend my principles- and I think that is what Dr. Paul does by example. If the C4L can transform these backstabbing liars in the GOP- more power to them. I won't bad mouth them or try to undermine what they do. What I cannot do, however, is get involved in an organization that will have to do things like this to see progress. I don't have the stomach for it.

What is the official C4L response to this tactic?

[sidster]

Hmm, interesting.

I guess there's nothing more to say other than fuck you, you backstabbers.

+1


I'm pissed. Disappointed doesn't even BEGIN to describe what I feel about Paul supporters just giving up. So much for the revolution, huh?

+1


Maybe they weren't Ron Paul supporters.

+100


Goodwill and 50 cents buys you a newspaper.

That was a stupid thing to do.

hehe...


Here's the update on what happened in Nevada with each deleagtes explanation as to why they voted for McCain:


Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:
Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

"Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."
And so the great delegate fight finally comes to an end.

I can't believe you were BOUGHT OFF by a stupid concert.
You disgust me!


Carl Bunce explains his vote for McCain:
Quote:
We were censored and pressured. Period! We have been followed and surrounded by security everywhere we go in MN. We got treated as children the entire time by NV GOP leadership. . We gave the NV GOP their 34 delegates.

Nick Vanderpool (Delegate Organizer) earned our votes or I should say our absense of principles because he talked to us like an adult and not like a spoiled child stomping his feet. He has my respect and NV will not suffer the disfavor of the RNC overlords now. We may be able save our party with much work and talking outloud instead of secret whispers in back rooms.

That is the last olive branch! If we (Freedom Minded Republicans) do not receive any respect starting tomorrow, they (Anyone but Freedom Minded Republicans) will all have a hard time doing anything politically in NV without us on their ass on every issue.

We have learned their game and their tactics. We have out-played them at every step of the way. But when the rules change on a moments notice then we can not play anymore. We must improvise! As we have. NV will have its day in the future. No one is giving up! This is a rigged game and we see that clearer the ever now!

We are still processing all the happenings of this week. We have a lot of intel on the corruption seeded at the national level.

Meeting with other state delegations gave us so much info on other tactics we have not seen yet in NV.

More to come...

Carl Bunce

You are dumbass. You acknowledge that the party doesn't
play fair, yet you think they will not play fair with you cause
they managed to trick you to submitting to them?

You poor sap!


Arden Osborne explains his vote for McCain:

Quote:I was only asked 'how I would vote' there never was a real vote. no ballot.

My response when asked was that since I had no candidate in the race (there
was only one nominee) I said I would abstain. When I was approached again
and told that I would be the only one keeping the vote from being unanimous,
we then discussed allowing an alternate to vote in my place since I had no
candidate, but that was that - there was no actual vote.

What anyone who is not here may not understand is that this convention was
a staged show. There was nothing to gain by being disrupting the
coronation...There was everything to gain for the future of our movement by
abstaining. Our win was our presence, our loss would have been throwing that
win away by closing the door to the party.

It's easy to criticize from the sidelines, but unless you were here to see
that there was nothing that could have been done that would even be
perceived as a good sign of protest (the mikes were guarded) - then you
can't really see the whole picture.

Our entire political system is a "stage show" ... I'm glad
it took sending you the the RNC to wake you up.

You too are a poor sap.


Lisa Marie Johnson explains her vote for McCain

Quote:
We did what was right so we could "fight for another day" as Arden said. Yes, Arden was going to abstain. Carl and Chris considered it too. So did I when I finally was seated.

I repeat, there was no official voting for Ron Paul. Some state leaders were just nice enough to allow their people to have that spoken and then took them away for the final count. The didn't show that on tv. Only Alaska, VP Palin's state, was allowed to mysteriously have their RP votes on the final tally. Same thing for Romney. I know because I stayed till the final gavel.

Abstaining would have been pissing on the party just to make a point rather than admitting the loss we all knew we had days if not weeks earlier. Where would that get us?

They had to come to us, finally, and basically admit we could make them look bad to be spitefull or let them look good to the RNC and earn some respect in a graceful defeat. I know it hurts. Believe me or don't, but it's been the worst birthday I've ever had. But we still learned a lot and if you throw us aside, you throw that knowledge aside also.

In the end, we know, however difficult it was last night and will be for some time, we did what we know in our hearts to be good for the future of our movement. That is a vote for Ron Paul. Pissing away everyone's hard work would have been the end of all of us. That's the reality.

You may say it doesn't matter because I didn't vote for him. But the fact is he wasn't nominated. You can't vote for someone who isn't nominated. I understand your anger. I'd probably feel the same if I wasn't there. It didn't change the nomination. From here on out, those of us who act respectable will be treated with respect. We've earned that, all of us, but it was the delegates who you elected, who delivered it to you, even though you can't see that now.

What kind of advocates for liberty are they if they cannot make a simple argument or negotiate an agreement to abstain or vote for Paul on the first ballot when it would be entirely symbolic and do no harm at all.

I wish you many horrible birthdays you traitor!

what a bunch of pussies ...



Hello all,

First I'd like to thank all the supporters who came out to the caucuses across Massachusetts and especially in the eigth district (Boston) where we swept our caucuses. If every RP supporter across the nation had committed to this level, I think we could have had enough stealth RP delegates to get this nomination.

My story is here for all to judge. I'm just going to give the facts here. I think you can judge for yourself about how we handled this. There is a lot of speculation also, which I may post later after verified.

We came into town Monday night and were invited to a GOP reception which was followed by a RP reception across town. At the GOP reception we gathered near a replica of air force one along with many RP delegates from other states. We decided to start a Ron Paul chant while streaming out to ruffle some feathers. It worked :).

We arrived at the RP reception with a plan hatched by Chris Blanc, who was quoted above and Todd Fay, who was Chris's alternate. We got in the reception and listened to Dr. Paul. After the speech we had a supporter who was going to go along with the plan take the mic and announce a meeting outside the hall. Drew Ivers took the mic not long after this and started to announce that he wanted people to stick around and listen to him and Jesse Benton.

The purpose of our meeting in the courtyard was to plan to nominate RP for president, which the campaign had given up on for a long time. We understood the rules of the roll call vote, which stated that RP could not be nominated or placed on the ballot of choices for the roll call vote for all states without the support of the majority of five delegations. We identified the ten smallest delegations and assigned delegates from across the country to approach delegates from these delegations with petitions for placing RP on the ballot. This was understood to be a Hail Mary, but we were not going to give up. We went nuts on the floor on Tuesday trying to get these petitions signed.

The people from the WA delegation were actually able to get the support of the majority of the virgin islands delegation, but our luck stopped there.

We were not able to get RP placed on the ballot for all states. Some states were legally required to report the votes of RP supporters who were legally bound to RP, but most states were not. In Massachusetts, most of us were bound by state law to McCain. We were only given the option of McCain or abstain.

When asked about my vote by my party chairman, I was given the option of McCain or abstain. Knowing there would be legal issues, I told him I was to abstain. Every Ron Paul delegate from Massachusetts initially voted to abstain. This started a shitstorm on the floor behind the wolf blitzer tent. We told them we wanted RP to speak on and have full floor access which he had been denied by the convention. They called in a Rep from the McCain campaign who told us that we could make a deal. If we got all the delegates for RP from all states united to vote for McCain, we could potentially have recognition for RP from the stage (maybe not RP but perhaps a grassroots supporter). We called as many delegates from other states to meet, and we decided not to take the deal. The reason for this was that we were unable to contact anyone from the campaign to advise us or to tell us that RP was willing to speak. No one answered their phones... I personally told everyone that we had to make the decision without the campaign (since I don't trust them anyway), but this was not the majority opinion.

During the meeting we were surrounded by a massive goon squad with ear pieces listening and typing everything we said. We had the sergeant at arms harassing our people trying to steal our list of RP delegates from all states. We had interns surrounding us with fake homemade signs to hide us from the media. We broke the meeting with the resolution to negotiate on the state level.

I can't speak for what happened in other states, but I do not expect anyone was given tickets to the rage concert... Many people had tickets already and wanted to go instead of being on the floor or anywhere near the propaganda festival.

For our state, we worked out a deal which was by no means unanimous. There was much dissent, but I think most of the people who did not agree are now realizing that we did the best we could do. Most of us gave our votes to alternates rather than abstaining.

Now for my interpretation:

To us, eight abstentions which would likely not have been reported was of less value than cooperation with the party in helping to get a meetup director on the State Committee, getting RP supporters on town commitees and formally welcoming us into the party. This puts us in a position to elect more RP supporters to the state committee for the upcoming election cycle, and if we fully activate all our supporters in the state we can own this committee, period. In the next presidential elections, Massachusetts can have 100% delegates for Ron Paul or a similar candidate without a doubt in my mind. Had we not made this deal, the party would have likely opposed us illegally every step of the way. We have an agreement in writing from our state party granting us several things that have already and will bring us much closer to our goals in Massachusetts. To get this, we worked with people in the party who supported Pat Buchanan in prior presidential runs, and a man on the national platform committee who struck a clause in support of the North American Union on our insistence. These party people are extremely happy. I believe they're happy not because of the unanimous vote as much as the prospect of having us in the party in the future.

Other delegates have voiced their approval of this deal, having achieved nothing in their states except getting totally ostracized. You can decide what you think for yourself though.

First of all I should say that is very brave and respectable
of you to come and post this yourself. But for your naive
take on the whole aspect of how you were fooled into giving
them all they wanted in the childish hope that they'll let
you play in their playpen in the future i have to say you
are a fucking moron!

The party hasn't played fair with us ever. What makes you
think they are about to now or in the future? They like it
their way. They are getting it done their way. So why bother
with you in the future?

And did I hear you right? In the "next presidential election"
you will have 100% Ron Paul delegates? You are a fool.

You know, I bet you guys also stuck a deal to vote for McCain
in Nov too. I wouldn't doubt that most of you would anyway.



"The system is corrupt, beyond redemption, and is not worthy of my support!"

+1000



What a dickless asshole. As a delegate you are REPRESENTING HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN YOUR STATE WHO CAST VOTES. And you betray them for a fucking CONCERT?
+1776

[freelance]

I can't believe you were BOUGHT OFF by a stupid concert.
You disgust me!

I can only hope that we're missing a big part of this equation. A concert? I can't even imagine.

[free.alive]

Originally Posted by Spirit of '76
Drew Ivers and Debbie Hopper were the "delegate coordinator" for Ron Paul. I was not on the conference call, but in Minnesota they never once suggested we should vote for McCain.

They told us to be respectful rather than disruptive and to work the press with a positive message about what we want to accomplish rather than just trashing McCain.

They never told us who to vote for.

Lew Moore was hired by the RNC to keep the peace between RP delegates and the RNC. I spoke with him personally when that kid from Massachusetts (Cambridge Chris, they called him) was trying to get everyone from every state to vote for McCain in exchange for "some respect" from the RNC.

Even at that point, Lew did not advise us to vote for McCain. He told us to work with our state parties and do what was best for us within our own delegations.


You can reprint this in that thread, if you'd like.

This is all correct. My comments referred to the conference call which '76 apparently missed. Regarding Ivers, Hopper and Moore, not one of them told the delegates they must vote for someone. I was using the word 'told' in my previous post to describe his response to a question. It was simply encouraged by Ivers that delegates cast their votes for McCain, or 'better yet', find an alternate who would. This would supposedly win us much good will and favor in the future, would win some neocons over to our side or something. (We'll see, I guess.) I can only speculate about what was done between the delegates at the convention, of course more will be coming out soon.

Thinking back, Moore remained totally silent, not agreeing or protesting. Actually, he himself was a guest to the call and may have left by that time. He was simply there to explain his new role with the RNC for the convention and answer anyone's questions, which he did in his typically straightforward manner.

Hopper, on the other hand, agreed with Ivers, at least on doing whatever we can to ensure good will and not cause any 'trouble'. She seemed like her main concern was promoting campaign for liberty and assuring that the delegates were not making fools of themselves, or embarrassing the CFL.

One thing I thought odd, not just on this call but even before, even regarding our state convention, was the idea that we shouldn't 'cause trouble', both coming from our leadership and from the GOP.

However, it wasn't until this conference call that I ever found this offensive. Even Ron Paul himself was on the call urging people to not make waves and 'cause trouble'. Ron Paul was particularly concerned about the way we'd be treated by police, security and the GOP. Ivers correctly said this wasn't our venue, and that we should fight our battles elsewhere.

What offended me was the underlying assumption that seemed to be coming from everyone that the only method of resistance and advancing our goals we peons could conceive of was rabble rousing and acting like animals. Considering the painstaking care which our delegates in every county and state convention learned the rules and stuck to them, it was somewhat of an insult to suggest we could only fight back by causing trouble, or as Spirit of '76 put it, 'being disruptive' or 'trashing McCain'.

Also, it's my belief that the Oklahoma delegate mentioned in another post whose vote wasn't counted in the official tally, who along with his wife (an alternate) ripped of their RNC badges, I'm pretty sure he's the one who asked the original question on the conference call regarding what to do if Ron Paul isn't on the ballot. He told Ivers even if he did want to ask an alternate to vote for him, his alternate was his wife and she certainly wouldn't.

[Eric21ND]

Let me get this straight, you guys fight all year long to get to the Convention only to kowtow and kiss the corrupt ring of party bosses???

Anyone bowing down to the powers that be and voting for McCain should fall on their collective sword now...that's the only way to save your honor to me. Cowards!

[tod evans]

spineless fuckin` loosers:mad:

[MsDoodahs]

Question: is this problem limited to the Massachusetts delegation?

[MsDoodahs]

I do know that the head of the North Dakota RP delegation was also either a chair of or at least on one of the committees, I think the rules committee.

He was in a strong position to engineer a vote for McCain.

More likely, however, it was Drew Ivers. Drew Ivers was the Ron Paul national delegation leader, appointed by the Campaign for Liberty and maybe Ron Paul himself.

I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

I was incensed. I tried to rationalize it and ended up just internalizing my disappointment since I knew we had at least 250 delegates and alternates, split roughly 50/50. That meant we should get Ron Paul maybe 10% of the vote after considering the forced abstentions resulting from bound delegates.

But no, the conciliatory message was made with principle left in the mud.

We must start preparing for the division of our movement in two ways -

Dominionism vs. Secularism

Pragmatism vs. Principle

Of course, you could reword the last one, invertebrates vs. vertebrates and I'd be fine with that.

Ron Paul rarely, if at all (considering is lonely voting record) compromises himself, at least in Congress and in his rhetoric.

The Real Politics Training School was a balls-to-the-wall class and motivational seminar on how and why NOT to compromise - ever - with our issues. Steadfast ruthlessness in defense of Liberty, forget mere extremism, was the message; how to eliminate the pragmatists was the lesson.

We shouldn't be surprised at the choices of the NV delegates - puppy-dog compromise was always present in their negotiations, or so it seemed in conversation with them and their helping hand. That's definitely not intended to take away from the hard work and fighting they did, but to put their compromise (which was really just surrender) in perspective.

The Massachusetts delegates are on their way to being 'digested' by the party and, while they're still our allies and even patriots today, they are at an increased risk of opposing Liberty in the coming years.

There is most of what I know, plus my two cents.



This is all correct. My comments referred to the conference call which '76 apparently missed. Regarding Ivers, Hopper and Moore, not one of them told the delegates they must vote for someone. I was using the word 'told' in my previous post to describe his response to a question. It was simply encouraged by Ivers that delegates cast their votes for McCain, or 'better yet', find an alternate who would. This would supposedly win us much good will and favor in the future, would win some neocons over to our side or something. (We'll see, I guess.) I can only speculate about what was done between the delegates at the convention, of course more will be coming out soon.

Thinking back, Moore remained totally silent, not agreeing or protesting. Actually, he himself was a guest to the call and may have left by that time. He was simply there to explain his new role with the RNC for the convention and answer anyone's questions, which he did in his typically straightforward manner.

Hopper, on the other hand, agreed with Ivers, at least on doing whatever we can to ensure good will and not cause any 'trouble'. She seemed like her main concern was promoting campaign for liberty and assuring that the delegates were not making fools of themselves, or embarrassing the CFL.

One thing I thought odd, not just on this call but even before, even regarding our state convention, was the idea that we shouldn't 'cause trouble', both coming from our leadership and from the GOP.

However, it wasn't until this conference call that I ever found this offensive. Even Ron Paul himself was on the call urging people to not make waves and 'cause trouble'. Ron Paul was particularly concerned about the way we'd be treated by police, security and the GOP. Ivers correctly said this wasn't our venue, and that we should fight our battles elsewhere.

What offended me was the underlying assumption that seemed to be coming from everyone that the only method of resistance and advancing our goals we peons could conceive of was rabble rousing and acting like animals. Considering the painstaking care which our delegates in every county and state convention learned the rules and stuck to them, it was somewhat of an insult to suggest we could only fight back by causing trouble, or as Spirit of '76 put it, 'being disruptive' or 'trashing McCain'.

Also, it's my belief that the Oklahoma delegate mentioned in another post whose vote wasn't counted in the official tally, who along with his wife (an alternate) ripped of their RNC badges, I'm pretty sure he's the one who asked the original question on the conference call regarding what to do if Ron Paul isn't on the ballot. He told Ivers even if he did want to ask an alternate to vote for him, his alternate was his wife and she certainly wouldn't.

Side by side to make it easy to look for shifts in tone.

[pepperpete1]

Question: is this problem limited to the Massachusetts delegation?

Man oh man, I would not want the responsibility of deciding between playing nice in the hopes of bettering relations with the crooked party or sticking to my guns and abstaining. From the past actions of the NRP it probably did you no good at all to vote for John. You gave them what they wanted, when what they really deserved was a kick in the behind. We RPers are used to being shunned, denigrated, and mocked. So what if in the future they look down their noses and close a door in your face. You've been there, and they've done that. If you think that they will return the favor and follow the rules from here on out I feel you are going to be sorely disappointed. I can see that none of you are named Dave.

It must of been scarey to have the "KGB" watching your every move and I commend all of you for braving the lion in his own den

I only have good things to say about Debbie Hopper. She championed for liberty more than once and has the been the most visible campaign member working her butt off. I loved it when she challenged the executive head of the Missouri Republican Party and asked for the actual vote count and of course she was stalled and with head unbowed pushed on for answers.

MA is not the only state with snakes crawling around within the party. I have watched and documented a lot of county, and state, and now the national party break election laws and party rules to gain their advantage.

Where is St. Patrick when you need him?:confused:

[MsDoodahs]

free.alive, thanks for mentioning that Ron was on the call in your second post.

I was not on the call, and maybe I'm wrong but I'm going to put it out there for consideration.

You said that Ron seemed concerned about how the delegates might be treated, and that you took from that that he thought "the only method of resistance and advancing our goals we peons could conceive of was rabble rousing and acting like animals."

I respectfully ask that you consider that Dr. Paul and the others were not concerned about how you guys would act but were very concerned about how the police, security and the GOP would RE act.

I don't think Ron doubted his delegates. I think he was concerned as to how his delegates would be treated by police, security, and the GOP when faced with a challenge - and at this point, even the mere presence of his delegates was a challenge.

MsD

[MsDoodahs]

Man oh man, I would not want the responsibility of deciding between playing nice in the hopes of bettering relations with the crooked party or sticking to my guns and abstaining. From the past actions of the NRP it probably did you no good at all to vote for John. You gave them what they wanted, when what they really deserved was a kick in the behind. We RPers are used to being shunned, denigrated, and mocked. So what if in the future they look down their noses and close a door in your face. You've been there, and they've done that. If you think that they will return the favor and follow the rules from here on out I feel you are going to be sorely disappointed. I can see that none of you are named Dave.

It must of been scarey to have the "KGB" watching your every move and I commend all of you for braving the lion in his own den

I only have good things to say about Debbie Hopper. She championed for liberty more than once and has the been the most visible campaign member working her butt off. I loved it when she challenged the executive head of the Missouri Republican Party and asked for the actual vote count and of course she was stalled and with head unbowed pushed on for answers.

MA is not the only state with snakes crawling around within the party. I have watched and documented a lot of county, and state, and now the national party break election laws and party rules to gain their advantage.

Where is St. Patrick when you need him?:confused:

After seeing the shit pulled here in Texas, it's obvious that the machine doesn't even bother to follow its own rules. :mad:

I can see Ron not wanting any of our people to be attacked (which I feared might happen just because they were there and breathing - they were sure 'nuf in the den).

Had any RP supporter been attacked by the goon squads, the media would have been deployed to spin it the GOPs way - made up bullshit about the person, interviews with party hacks telling lies on camera: "oh, that Ron Paul supporter did ________ and the police did the right thing by tazering/beating/arresting/whatevering him." And you guys know that all the sheep would eat that shit right up. Every GOPer in the whole damn country would have been ready to slam the door in our faces when CFL launches and we start the effort to do this peacefully neighborhood by neighborhood.

It was a tough call for the delegates: vote McCain or abstain, blech. I read those posts where they were explaining their choices. I also want to commend them for working hard to get to the convention and representing Dr. Paul there, because as I said, just being there was a challenge to the GOP machine.

I will believe that each one made whatever choices they felt were best. It was no easy task and I won't attack them because I was not in their shoes and can't say that faced with the same options, I might not have done the same thing. (Except the concert thing. That one...uh....no.) As for the rest...y'all tried. I don't trust the machine at all - they will not keep promises, so any carrot they dangled was just that - a carrot.

I'm just glad it went off without the potential hitch (above). We made it through that. Whew. I'm glad it's over.

[muzzled dogg]

all i have to say is yall some straight bitches for this

dont let me catch yall in my hood afterhours pc

[Spirit of '76]

It was a tough call for the delegates: vote McCain or abstain, blech. I read those posts where they were explaining their choices.

WV had our votes for Ron Paul announced by our state's Republican candidate for governor. Of course, the secretary didn't recognize them and gave all the votes to McCain.

[MsDoodahs]

WV had our votes for Ron Paul announced by our state's Republican candidate for governor. Of course, the secretary didn't recognize them and gave all the votes to McCain.

Is there a legal response that can be launched?

[Spirit of '76]

I have a feeling they'll count them when/if they release an official tally. They just didn't want anything screwing up good TV.

[MsDoodahs]

Oh, okay - just part of the big show for the sheep.

[freelance]

First, I'm sure that I'm not the only one breathing easier that nothing happened to our delegates--no arrests, no beatings, no taserings or worse. I felt like I held my breath for them during the whole convention.

Second, I can't say with any certainty that I would not have cracked under pressure, especially if I had felt that my own safety or the safety of my family might have been in jeopardy. I can say with certainty that I would not have believed that I would have anything to gain from the party short of my own personal safety in exchange for my vote.

I'm afraid that I do not believe for one second that RPers will ever be accepted for who they are, but rather will only be accepted temporarily when they fall in line, and that acceptance will always be provisional and subject to change the very next time there's one of those "fall in line" scenarios.

And this comes from a former (WAY former) insider--like thirty years ago. Even though I've been absent from the state and local GOP scene for thirty years, I was recently the subject of "dirty tricks" attempting to secure my (active and rabid) support for John McCain. I told them to stuff it and never dial my phone number again until they got back to their Constitutional roots.

Moral to the story. Once the GOP has your number, they never lose it. It's like the Hotel California.


You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave!

[Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice]

These MA delegates were sent to vote for Dr. Paul, not be central planners for the movement. Their task was simple, and they were seduced with power/flattery to compromise the wishes of their delegation. All for "promises" from the GOP.
Hahahaha!!!

Compromising a simple task for the "greater good" of the movement is Marxist elitist bullshit, and I'm shocked these delegates used such reasoning. Why would I vote for someone like this for office when they will take it upon themselves to decide what's "best", even if it means going against what got them elected in the first place?

[puppetmaster]

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin


They are part of the problem with these treasonous acts...easily swayed and should be swinging. I am so sorry Ron Paul. I had higher expectations for these folks. The strong shall prevail the weak shall parish.

[DeanToPaulIn4Years]

Cool. It looks like I get to save a bunch of money over the next few years by not contributing to this kind of organization.

Thanks for a good ride, Ron, it was fun.

Obama '08

[thx1149]

Cool. It looks like I get to save a bunch of money over the next few years by not contributing to this kind of organization.

Thanks for a good ride, Ron, it was fun.

Obama '08


These people made such a difficult decision. I've been going back and forth since the stories came out, and finally I think that had I been a delegate there, I would have not voted for McCain or allowed an alternate to vote. This would be for integrity. If we view a vote as an endorsement, I don't like the idea of endorsing McCain, even if it is a pointless fake vote for a candidate that already won.

That may be my view today, but even so I feel no ill towards those that voted otherwise. These people did what they thought was right. They are individuals, not the movement. Each individual involved in the movement is someone with common goals, generally regardless of the ways they see of achieving them. You seem to hold their actions against the movement, ignoring that the movement was uninvolved and clearly split on the issue.

These people made the decision they thought was right. With what we know now they cost us nothing. There was no real vote. There was no real tally. There was no free speech. There was no opportunity to oppose. Had they voted against McCain nothing would have changed. In all likeliness, nothing would have even been recorded any different. That being said they made the choice they thought would best benefit the movement. They cost us nothing and possibly gained us access to committees that will allow us more access and power in the party in the future.

Yes, we need our integrity. But if we are going to win this game we need to play along. Sacrificing nothing, except maybe a symbol, to gain something may be a blow to our integrity on some level, but it may also prove very valuable. It's not the choice I would have made, but I am not willing to say it was the wrong choice. Time will tell if the party follows through with their promises. I wish they got them in writing.

The most important thing to be said here once again is that these people are individuals. They are not the movement, they are not the consensus. We all have opinions on whether what they did was right or wrong. If you are ditching the movement on the actions of a few individual members then you probably never understood the movement anyway. Concepts like individualism (as opposed to collectivism) and personal responsibility are essential to the movement. I hope you and others like you can reconsider and be adult about this. At least stick around and engage in some mature conversation, so that we can better understand your views and you can better understand ours. If you choose to go, leave in peace and know that we will still be here fighting for you and we will be pleased to see you when you are ready to return. All that being said, in regards to the events that transpired at the RNC, in the end none of this is important and this will likely have little effect on the movement, as it would have regardless of the actions of the delegates.

For my own curiosity, what's with the "Obama 08" sig? Did you really believe the platforms supported by the movement? You do realize Obama doesn't? Are you choosing him as the "lesser of the two evils?" If so, how do you see your voting for something you don't believe in because you feel it would be better than the alternate for the country as being so different than the atrocity you accuse the delegates of. Should what they did be easier to excuse because they weren't even voting in a real election where their vote could have mattered?

[jacmicwag]

Cool. It looks like I get to save a bunch of money over the next few years by not contributing to this kind of organization.

Thanks for a good ride, Ron, it was fun.

Obama '08

Hey, DeanforPaul - I met you in the airport heading out of Minneapolis. You and your wife were drinking beer and I was nursing a noon martini. I have not read this whole thread and don't really know what the issue is but I will say this - thanks for traveling all the way from NH to attend the convention and support Ron Paul. At the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Regards,
Jack

[Micah Dardar]

If you can't do the job, don't sign up for it! Plain and simple. Patriotism sometimes may require standing on the shoulders of giants! If you aren't up for it, don't do it.

[OrbitalGun]

DeanToPaulIn4Years - It is not you that should leave the organization. The thirty pieces of silver gang that voted for McCain should be the ones shown the door.



Cool. It looks like I get to save a bunch of money over the next few years by not contributing to this kind of organization.

Thanks for a good ride, Ron, it was fun.

Obama '08

[newyearsrevolution08]

DeanToPaulIn4Years - It is not you that should leave the organization. The thirty pieces of silver gang that voted for McCain should be the ones shown the door.

+ 1 and then some

all it shows the mccain crowd is that when push comes to shove us ron paul patriots will cave just like the rest. It doesn't matter what the reasoning is for each and every delegate or voter because the VOTE is the only thing that matters in the end.

If you go there as a ron paul delegate and leave voting for mccain then what was the point of even going?

[Debbie Hopper]

I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

Your account of the delegate only conference call you crashed is not at all accurate. A question was posed by a delegate who was bound to vote for McCain. He said his conscience wouldn't allow him to cast a vote for McCain. Drew advised him to have an alternate stand in so that he wouldn't have to.

That's a far cry from your claim that Drew Ivers told Ron Paul Delegates to vote for McCain. As far as my comments, I said I understood and if I were in his shoes I couldn't cast a vote for McCain, either, and since Dr. Paul has steadfastly refused to endorse McCain, he'd probably feel the same way.

[Mortikhi]

You are an idtiot and worthless to the movement.

Spoken like someone that probably voted McCain.

I donated money.
I became a precinct captain.
I put up signs.
I stood on the side of the road.

What did you do? Sell us all out?

Die.

[RP4EVER]

The RNC has shown time and time again, that they do not believe in the rules. A delegate on dailypaul gave his vote over to McCain, again a goodwill gesture, and will be meeting the leadership to discuss more involvement for the liberty group and thinks this is just fine. By doing this and by saying that it is o.k. for the sake of goodwill to turn over your right as a delegate to present your vote as you represented you would, makes you little better than the inner circle, imo. I suggested he ask at this meeting what that group of RNC leadership was going to do to remedy the harm done to Dr. Paul and to individual liberties by their marginalization. He says that the RNC is fearful and they know they need us...so why wouldn't they allow even a couple of votes for Dr. Paul as a show of fairness?

A Goodwill gesture??????????????????????? They dont want goodwill. They wont hold up to any agreement they supposedly made.....they got what they wanted and everyone who voted for McCain that openly supported Ron Paul will get the boot at the first possible moment.

[HumanAboveAll]

From what it sounds like,
The MA Delegation did what they had to to get ahead, plus MA has some serious laws about voting against your pledged candidate on the voice vote. No one "wimped" out or did anything like that. Good luck to the MA RP delegates and I hope everything goes according to plan.

[Mortikhi]

From what it sounds like,
The MA Delegation did what they had to to get ahead, plus MA has some serious laws about voting against your pledged candidate on the voice vote. No one "wimped" out or did anything like that. Good luck to the MA RP delegates and I hope everything goes according to plan.

Buy a clue, member of 1 post, Mr. MA delegate.

Traitor is as traitor does.

[newyearsrevolution08]

From what it sounds like,
The MA Delegation did what they had to to get ahead, plus MA has some serious laws about voting against your pledged candidate on the voice vote. No one "wimped" out or did anything like that. Good luck to the MA RP delegates and I hope everything goes according to plan.

"Ahead" of what? what did these delegates gain? They get smiles and nods from mccain supporters and avid "republican no matter what" voters. What happens the next time around?

It is the same mentality of assuming that an undercover cop can get in real good with the hells angels (I have more respect for them then the pos gop) and sure they can be buddy buddy and get things done BUT once they realize the undercover cops true intentions they kill his ass.

What "ground" did these delegates gain by playing the safe card now? What can that actually earn them later if they decide to finally grow balls and fly the ron paul flag later on? We got zero respect from any of our local gop's as well as state and nationally so what good is voting like the rest of the sheep going to do for us once the next election cycle comes around?

I can understand if they are trying to get into their local republican parties BUT does it really need to be done under false pretenses? If it does then odds are it is the wrong strategy.

Just go into it and do it like we all are doing across the states. One person doesn't have the right to tell you to NOT vote for this or that just for the parties sake and to think like that is naive. It isn't the party that we are voting for and I am surprised that so many delegates don't see it.

[newyearsrevolution08]

Your account of the delegate only conference call you crashed is not at all accurate. A question was posed by a delegate who was bound to vote for McCain. He said his conscience wouldn't allow him to cast a vote for McCain. Drew advised him to have an alternate stand in so that he wouldn't have to.

That's a far cry from your claim that Drew Ivers told Ron Paul Delegates to vote for McCain. As far as my comments, I said I understood and if I were in his shoes I couldn't cast a vote for McCain, either, and since Dr. Paul has steadfastly refused to endorse McCain, he'd probably feel the same way.

I love that "or else" bullshit LOL

Yes this prick was standing over our delegates with a knife saying do it or die!

You are a delegate for THE PUBLIC, and it wasn't just YOUR vote delegates. Who can FORCE you to vote one way or another and if that was even the case then guess what would make an AMAZING news story.

"RNC forcing delegates to vote mccain at 11"

[MsDoodahs]

Your account of the delegate only conference call you crashed is not at all accurate. A question was posed by a delegate who was bound to vote for McCain. He said his conscience wouldn't allow him to cast a vote for McCain. Drew advised him to have an alternate stand in so that he wouldn't have to.

That's a far cry from your claim that Drew Ivers told Ron Paul Delegates to vote for McCain. As far as my comments, I said I understood and if I were in his shoes I couldn't cast a vote for McCain, either, and since Dr. Paul has steadfastly refused to endorse McCain, he'd probably feel the same way.

Thank you, Debbie.

[MsDoodahs]

"RNC forcing delegates to vote mccain at 11"

I think they've been doing it this way for so long, it would not even cause the slightest peep.

Not news...not at all...

<sigh>

[ruggedindividualist]

Cool. It looks like I get to save a bunch of money over the next few years by not contributing to this kind of organization.

Thanks for a good ride, Ron, it was fun.

Obama '08

I don't get it. How do you go from supporting ron paul to supporting a commie???

[MsDoodahs]

Good question.

There are others here who have decided to support Obama, too.

I don't get it, but it's their choice.

[RP4EVER]

I dont get why you people arent upset that the people YOU donated money to; a cause you donated money to took the money as appointed Ron Paul delegates and sold out.....like i said in my hot topics post; part of me thinks that no one has really accepted that they sold out to the machine for a smile.

Mr Cunningham who I had high hopes would win doesnt deserve the support of the RP grassroots......kinda hard to hope he wont sell out in congress where he could be offered rewards of a higher nature for doing so.

[muzzled dogg]

talked to john cunningham and his field dude today

they got seats for ron paul republicans guaranteed in writing