PDA

View Full Version : Tucker Carlson & Truthers




Pages : [1] 2

Printo
09-04-2008, 02:16 PM
I heard there was some kind of altercation between the asshole truthers and Tucker Carlson. They supposedly scared him off & he stopped being MC. What exactly happened?? I also heard the truthers were chanting "911 was an inside job" during the Ventura speech. Why wont the truthers just go away or shut the hell up? It seems they use this movement of small government, free markets & anti-war and turned it into a conspiracy theory camp. It really angers me that they are destroying the movement.

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 02:27 PM
I think Tucker left BECAUSE they were chanting '9/11 was an inside job'.

After I heard them chanting that, I cut my ties with the truth movement. I will no longer speak about 9/11 to anyone, because the movement is an EMBARRASSMENT to Ron Paul supporters. They are the reason why Ron was a fringe candidate, and its only now that I see it.

My country is more important then what happened during 9/11. When we have power, there will be truth, until then, it is counter-productive to associate Ron Paul to the truth movement, you fucking idiots.

How dare they ride the coat-tails of our movement to push their WIDELY unpopular movement. That kind of shit belongs at their own rally. Leave Ron Paul and us OUT OF IT!

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 02:32 PM
And please, don't take me as saying 'stop what you are doing', keep on telling the truth...Ron Paul events are not appropriate that's for sure.

But DO NOT think the attention is worth sacrificing because of the message... Remembers who's attention and message you are sacrificing by being a truther associated to Ron Paul..

brandon
09-04-2008, 02:32 PM
I heard there was some kind of altercation between the asshole truthers and Tucker Carlson. They supposedly scared him off & he stopped being MC. What exactly happened?? I also heard the truthers were chanting "911 was an inside job" during the Ventura speech. Why wont the truthers just go away or shut the hell up? It seems they use this movement of small government, free markets & anti-war and turned it into a conspiracy theory camp. It really angers me that they are destroying the movement.

The truthers make up most of the movement. I know several state coordinators who are truthers. A large majority of my friends from meetup are truthers. I know several meetup organizers and assistant organizers that are truthers. Many of these truthers have advanced degrees and are very intelligent, successful people.


I am not a truther myself. I am more of a fence sitter. I enjoy debating these people about their 9/11 beliefs. I welcome them to the movement, and I don't understand why people have such a huge problem with them.

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 02:35 PM
We don't win votes by being truthers. We only loose them. I know of several people that quit supporting Paul because they saw a bunch of 9/11 signs at a rally.

We win votes by being true Conservatives.

btw, there is no proof that most of the Ron Paul revolution are truthers. And don't show me that poll where a couple dozen people on here voted that way. This message board does not represent the Revolution fully.

Printo
09-04-2008, 02:36 PM
I have a huge problem with the Truthers because they are using Ron Paul as an outlet for their conspiracy theory crap.

RON PAUL =/= 911 TRUTH

One should NEVER be associated with the other. If you are a truther, do not talk about it at Ron Paul events. Ron Paul does not believe in the Truther movement. Ron Paul has dissociated himself from the truthers & they should do the same by shutting their mouths.

Kotin
09-04-2008, 02:38 PM
truthers piss me off!


they were at the march too..


they are like parasites.

amy31416
09-04-2008, 02:38 PM
We win votes by being true Conservatives.

You can be both. I think the time is past that the 9/11 truther/Ron Paul thing makes any difference whatsoever except in the case of rabid truthers who have to turn every discussion into one on 9/11.

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 02:44 PM
You can be both. I think the time is past that the 9/11 truther/Ron Paul thing makes any difference whatsoever except in the case of rabid truthers who have to turn every discussion into one on 9/11.

Which, I am, but now I am silent about 9/11. In protest of the truthers.

I've never met a truther who would have a normal discussion with me.. or they gang up on you and have 4 of their friends screaming questions at you. Hell, they do it several times in 'Fabled Enemies' and they looks like morons.

This is what destroys the message of Ron Paul. A lot of people do not want to be associated to truthers.

Printo
09-04-2008, 02:45 PM
We cannot win by being both. No Republicans want to hear that 911 Truther crap. These are the people we are trying to get to convert. When they hear the Truther crap, they are turned off immediately. They dont want to hear that. They want to hear about conservative values like small government, fiscal conservatism & economic freedom. NOT conspiracy theories about 911, Bilderberg, CFR, NWO, prison planet or the Illuminati.

ARealConservative
09-04-2008, 02:49 PM
The truthers make up most of the movement. I know several state coordinators who are truthers. A large majority of my friends from meetup are truthers. I know several meetup organizers and assistant organizers that are truthers. Many of these truthers have advanced degrees and are very intelligent, successful people.


I am not a truther myself. I am more of a fence sitter. I enjoy debating these people about their 9/11 beliefs. I welcome them to the movement, and I don't understand why people have such a huge problem with them.

not true.

I would estimate less then 10% of the real world Ron Paul supporters fit the "truther" label.

Printo
09-04-2008, 02:51 PM
not true.

I would estimate less then 10% of the real world Ron Paul supporters fit the "truther" label.

Yea, there just seems like theres a lot of them because they wont shut their big mouths. They just are more vocal than the rest of us who are normal.

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 02:54 PM
There are two side to this argument

1)let the truthers say what they say at Ron Paul rally's.. despite obvious media backlash, and loss of on the fence conservatives.

2)leave truthers out of the issue, continue our conservative message, while winning over conservatives.

One of those seems like a win win without controversy.

The truth movement is big enough to say that millions know of them.. If people want to learn the truth about world changing events, let them come to you. Don't come to them at our rallies, where they came to hear about conservative values.

brandon
09-04-2008, 02:57 PM
I would estimate less then 10% of the real world Ron Paul supporters fit the "truther" label.

If by 'supporter' you mean someone who voted for Ron Paul and didn't do much more besides that, you are probably correct.

But if you are talking about the people who actively campaigned for RP, i strongly disagree. At least from my experience.

Printo
09-04-2008, 02:59 PM
Go to 911 Truther Meetup groups & post your messages on 911 Truther message boards. Do not post your conspiracy theories on this board, do not talk about it in the chat room, do not talk about it at events, do not mention them in the same conversation. Just be quiet.

Jamsie 567
09-04-2008, 03:00 PM
Go to 911 Truther Meetup groups & post your messages on 911 Truther message boards. Do not post your conspiracy theories on this board, do not talk about it in the chat room, do not talk about it at events, do not mention them in the same conversation. Just be quiet.

You don't believe in your first amendment rights and you call yourself a Ron Paul supporter? I think you are supporting the wrong person. You are just as fake as the neo-cons. Hit that little x on the right hand corner of your computer and do us all a favor.

Internet tough guys can kiss my ass.

Printo
09-04-2008, 03:03 PM
Oh please, you're supporting the wrong person if you think Ron Paul supports 911 Truthers or that he is in any way associated with the Truther movement.

Go ahead & spew your ignorance. You're killing the Revolution with your 1st Amendment Rights. Learn when its appropriate to exercise your civil liberties. If you care anything about Ron Paul and the Revolution, you will not talk about 911 Truth.

Roxi
09-04-2008, 03:06 PM
i too am a fence sitter... i don't go to truther websites, i don't own a 9/11 tshirt or bumper sticker, nver been to a meeting.... but i don't believe the official story, and i believe anythings possible


however i know some hardcore 9/11 truthers, they are good friends of mine, and ron paul supporters, and not one of them would mix the truth message with a ron paul event, not one of them would wear a 9/11 inside job shirt to a ron paul event

knowing that makes me believe anyone one who would, is not a real ron paul supporter

lucius
09-04-2008, 03:10 PM
I never had an opinion in politics or religion which I was afraid to own.~Thomas Jefferson

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 03:11 PM
You don't believe in your first amendment rights and you call yourself a Ron Paul supporter? I think you are supporting the wrong person. You are just as fake as the neo-cons. Hit that little x on the right hand corner of your computer and do us all a favor.

Internet tough guys can kiss my ass.

Using your first amendment means using it responsibly..

Just as the 2nd amendment is to be used responsibly.

"Truth is treason in an Empire of Lies" -Ron Paul.

;)

gls
09-04-2008, 03:11 PM
I would really like to know the answers to Jesse Ventura's questions.

How can the FBI say that there is "no hard evidence" linking bin Laden to the 9/11 attacks? Weren't there videos released of bin Laden claiming involvement? If those videos wouldn't stand up to scrutiny in a court of law, why were they presented to the American people as fact?

Don't be afraid to run away from valid questions. That kind of thinking got us to where we are today.

Jamsie 567
09-04-2008, 03:15 PM
Oh please, you're supporting the wrong person if you think Ron Paul supports 911 Truthers or that he is in any way associated with the Truther movement.

Go ahead & spew your ignorance. You're killing the Revolution with your 1st Amendment Rights. Learn when its appropriate to exercise your civil liberties. If you care anything about Ron Paul and the Revolution, you will not talk about 911 Truth.

Opinions are like assholes everyone has one. Yours stinks by the way.

Did I say I was a truther? I will tell you what if it offends you I will gladly be a truther and stand up for them. When was the last time you saw a truther come here and post their rhetoric? When was the last time I saw an ass come here and post this type of garbage? You are feeding their fire so are you any better? You bring the same negative light but you bring it to our forums.

Does anyone want to help Printo? When was the last time a Truther came to Ron Paul forums and was talking about 9/11 being an inside job?

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 03:16 PM
I would really like to know the answers to Jesse Ventura's questions.

How can the FBI say that there is "no hard evidence" linking bin Laden to the 9/11 attacks? Weren't there videos released of bin Laden claiming involvement? If those videos wouldn't stand up to scrutiny in a court of law, why were they presented to the American people as fact?

Don't be afraid to run away from valid questions. That kind of thinking got us to where we are today.

This is not the issue...These are valid questions, and completely appropriate.

It is the way the vast majority of truthers conduct themselves that's in question.

JohnMeridith
09-04-2008, 03:18 PM
It all comes down to transparency of government, and right now we are on the flipside of that.

Printo
09-04-2008, 03:21 PM
Opinions are like assholes everyone has one. Yours stinks by the way.

Did I say I was a truther? I will tell you what if it offends you I will gladly be a truther and stand up for them. When was the last time you saw a truther come here and post their rhetoric? When was the last time I saw an ass come here and post this type of garbage? You are feeding their fire so are you any better? You bring the same negative light but you bring it to our forums.

Does anyone want to help Printo? When was the last time a Truther came to Ron Paul forums and was talking about 9/11 being an inside job?

Here's one posted today:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=153512

Here's one from less than a month ago:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=149790

At the Rally people were chanting "911 was an inside job." Last time I checked, it was Rally for the Republic, not the rally for 911 truth.

I'm not feeding this 911 truther fire. The real people feeding the fire are the Truthers. The more they vocalize their views on 911 Truth, the bigger the fire grows. Eventually this fire will burn down the house that is the Ron Paul Revolution.

gls
09-04-2008, 03:25 PM
This is not the issue...These are valid questions, and completely appropriate.

It is the way the vast majority of truthers conduct themselves that's in question.

Whatever. Tucker showing up at that press conference with a bunch of hookers did more to harm Ron Paul among conservative GOP primary voters than the actions of all the "truthers" combined.

I wouldn't be surprised if this walkout was orchestrated to try and smear Paul further.

But yeah, let's put blind trust in the government and the MSM. Surely they have earned it! </sarcasm>

strapko
09-04-2008, 03:30 PM
Truthers should chant "911 was a government failure" instead.

Liberty Rebellion
09-04-2008, 03:31 PM
Whatever. Tucker showing up at that press conference with a bunch of hookers did more to harm Ron Paul among conservative GOP primary voters than the actions of all the "truthers" combined.

I wouldn't be surprised if this walkout was orchestrated to try and smear Paul further.

But yeah, let's put blind trust in the government and the MSM. Surely they have earned it! </sarcasm>

+1776

Who gives a crap about Tucker "Hey let's bring hookers to meet Ron Paul in front of the MSM, that will win over voters!" Carlson?

dannno
09-04-2008, 03:39 PM
Ventura was talking about 9/11 truth during his speech, and a lot of Ron Paul supporters are energetic youth. What the fuck did you think was going to happen??



http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w219/dimmel_dimplebottom/thread_sucks.jpg

Arklatex
09-04-2008, 03:39 PM
I was at the Rally and didn't hear any 911 truthers other than Ventura asking some very good questions. What's wrong with transparency? Why was no one fired? Why did Bush do everything to stonewall the investigation and why wasn't Bin Laden charged with it officially? A lack of evidence? Those are all great questions about one of the most significant events of American history and I have no problem with citizens or Paul supporters wanting them asked.

Jamsie 567
09-04-2008, 03:46 PM
I was at the Rally also I did not hear one person chant 9/11 was an inside job. I saw a few investigate 9/11 shirts but what ever I can careless.

If anything I relate with them they are silenced just as much as we are. There are a lot of truthers in our movment and there always will be because Ron Paul brings us all together. It is something you have to learn to deal with IMO.

nobody's_hero
09-04-2008, 04:05 PM
I've been fairly tolerant to the calls for re-opening investigations/independent investigations (I would even favor them once priorities are addressed, as I am not convinced that there wasn't some "looking the other way" stuff going on there), but here's the thing that's starting to worry me:

Suppose we drop the U.S. Constitution as the pinnacle of our movement-

Forget the Bill of Rights, or Amendment processes, or individual liberties: these are things that everyone who is a full-blooded, liberty-lovin' American at-heart can, and will, support.

Suppose we replace that message with 9/11 "truth." Now, you've lost a lot of your audience, and you still don't have your full rights.

I have said, and will always say, BRING BACK THE CONSTITUTION!

Then, you can worry about the rest later. Believe me, if you get someone in office who truly supports a Constitutionally-restrained government, someone is going to spill the beans over what actually happened on Sept. 11, 2001.

I have never felt, at any point during my support for Ron Paul, that this movement was about 9/11 truth, or that truthers 'made up a majority of Ron Paul supporters.' It was about freedom. It was about 'legalizing the Constitution.' It was about returning this country to its original glory (and modesty).

If we're scaring off people who support the U.S. Constitution, we're doing something wrong.

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 04:15 PM
+1776

Who gives a crap about Tucker "Hey let's bring hookers to meet Ron Paul in front of the MSM, that will win over voters!" Carlson?

Uh... Tucker doesn't show up to every rally doing this.

Don't expect him to come back.

RockEnds
09-04-2008, 04:15 PM
I was at the Rally also I did not hear one person chant 9/11 was an inside job. I saw a few investigate 9/11 shirts but what ever I can careless.

+1 I heard a few people chanting something during that part of Ventura's speech, but there were so few and it was so faint that I really couldn't tell what they were saying. It didn't seem to be a big deal at all to me.

Captain Bryan
09-04-2008, 04:19 PM
+1 I heard a few people chanting something during that part of Ventura's speech, but there were so few and it was so faint that I really couldn't tell what they were saying. It didn't seem to be a big deal at all to me.
What I heard people chanting during Jesse's speech was "Run, Jesse, Run!"
I heard no chants pertaining to 9-11.

VoteForRonPaul
09-04-2008, 04:22 PM
I would estimate less then 10% of the real world Ron Paul supporters fit the "truther" label.


If by 'supporter' you mean someone who voted for Ron Paul and didn't do much more besides that, you are probably correct.

But if you are talking about the people who actively campaigned for RP, i strongly disagree. At least from my experience.
Well said brand,,,!

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 04:22 PM
I've been fairly tolerant to the calls for re-opening investigations/independent investigations (I would even favor them once priorities are addressed, as I am not convinced that there wasn't some "looking the other way" stuff going on there), but here's the thing that's starting to worry me:

Suppose we drop the U.S. Constitution as the pinnacle of our movement-

Forget the Bill of Rights, or Amendment processes, or individual liberties: these are things that everyone who is a full-blooded, liberty-lovin' American at-heart can, and will, support.

Suppose we replace that message with 9/11 "truth." Now, you've lost a lot of your audience, and you still don't have your full rights.

I have said, and will always say, BRING BACK THE CONSTITUTION!

Then, you can worry about the rest later. Believe me, if you get someone in office who truly supports a Constitutionally-restrained government, someone is going to spill the beans over what actually happened on Sept. 11, 2001.

I have never felt, at any point during my support for Ron Paul, that this movement was about 9/11 truth, or that truthers 'made up a majority of Ron Paul supporters.' It was about freedom. It was about 'legalizing the Constitution.' It was about returning this country to its original glory (and modesty).

If we're scaring off people who support the U.S. Constitution, we're doing something wrong.

+1776.

The person above me said lean to deal with it.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? DO YOU NOT GET IT?!

WE CAN DEAL WITH IT! THE ON THE FENCE RON PAUL SUPPORTER CANT!

How is it difficult to realize?!

Liberty Rebellion
09-04-2008, 04:29 PM
Uh... Tucker doesn't show up to every rally doing this.

Don't expect him to come back.

Right, he only does that when he is on the road with Ron Paul with the MSM watching during the Primaries.

Oh well, he's a jackass anyways.

VoteForRonPaul
09-04-2008, 04:31 PM
Ventura was talking about 9/11 truth during his speech, and a lot of Ron Paul supporters are energetic youth. What the fuck did you think was going to happen??

Very good analysis danno

The discussion about associating Ron Paul with 9/11 truth should have ended since Ron Paul clarified his position. Now I cannot believe some people still beating the old crap :rolleyes:

Also we have to differentiate in this forum between two things. Between associating Ron Paul with 9/11 hypothesis and between the freedom of discussing the hypothesis themselves.

Banning 9/11 threads opposes the message of freedom and liberty which Ron Paul preaches. So let us be straight here.

Discussing 9/11 does not mean it is associated with RP, end of the story.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w219/dimmel_dimplebottom/thread_sucks.jpg

dannno
09-04-2008, 04:37 PM
(post deleted)

libertygrl
09-04-2008, 05:09 PM
Go to 911 Truther Meetup groups & post your messages on 911 Truther message boards. Do not post your conspiracy theories on this board, do not talk about it in the chat room, do not talk about it at events, do not mention them in the same conversation. Just be quiet.

Who elected you as dictator? So much for free speech.

cilution
09-04-2008, 05:10 PM
Some people will always be using any means they can to promote their own beliefs. Some people just want to be heard. Some people are so stuck in the "if only they knew what I knew..." mentality that they're no different than religious nuts telling you how you need to find Jesus while trying to look down on you from their imaginary seat of moral or intellectual superiority.

This is why so many groups have become so exclusive... because groups don't want to deal with people like that. I can't blame them.

They'll pull the freedom card. It's a free country, I can say what I want, do what I want, right? Well, sure, but I think that exercising your freedom at the expense of an event like the R4R sort of spits on the freedom of those who organized said event, not to mention all the attendees that are there for the publicly stated event purpose. If you exercise your freedom and at the same time show a lack of respect for the freedom of others, you don't deserve your freedom. Well, I guess you are free to be an asshole, and I'm free to beat the crap out of you for harassing me.

If you want to talk about 9/11 truth movement stuff, then organize your own event and attract people who care to hear you. Otherwise, leave the rest of us alone (does that line sound familiar?). Don't be opportunistic bastards. I don't know about everyone else, but you sure as hell will never win me to your cause that way.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 05:11 PM
I heard there was some kind of altercation between the asshole truthers and Tucker Carlson. They supposedly scared him off & he stopped being MC. What exactly happened?? I also heard the truthers were chanting "911 was an inside job" during the Ventura speech. Why wont the truthers just go away or shut the hell up? It seems they use this movement of small government, free markets & anti-war and turned it into a conspiracy theory camp. It really angers me that they are destroying the movement.

Excuse me sir, if it wasn't for the 9/11 truth movement, and Alex Jones, Ron Paul would not have gotten near as far as he did.

Give respect where respect is due.

I was against the peolpe spouting 9/11 was an inside job DURING the campaign but now the campaign is over.

have you researched the facts of 9/11? Answer: No
It's obvious.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 05:14 PM
not true.

I would estimate less then 10% of the real world Ron Paul supporters fit the "truther" label.

Not true

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 05:15 PM
Go to 911 Truther Meetup groups & post your messages on 911 Truther message boards. Do not post your conspiracy theories on this board, do not talk about it in the chat room, do not talk about it at events, do not mention them in the same conversation. Just be quiet.

Go sit in the corner and be the good red headed step child that you should be.

Cowlesy
09-04-2008, 05:19 PM
Excuse me sir, if it wasn't for the 9/11 truth movement, and Alex Jones, Ron Paul would not have gotten near as far as he did.

Give respect where respect is due.

I was against the peolpe spouting 9/11 was an inside job DURING the campaign but now the campaign is over.

have you researched the facts of 9/11? Answer: No
It's obvious.

I respectfully disagree with this assertion. Unless 9/11 Truthers and Alex Jones were the catalyst to make Ron Paul a Congressman, get him to run for President and thereby get him in the debates, I disagree that RP would not have went as far as he did.

My assertion is that Ron exploded onto the stage is because a shitload of pissed off Republicans got jilted back into reality by his straight-talk in the debates.

In fact, I would have never heard of "9/11 Truth" or Alex Jones without Ron Paul. I think it is the other way around.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 05:33 PM
In fact, I would have never heard of "9/11 Truth" or Alex Jones without Ron Paul. I think it is the other way around.

That's because you were not around those groups of people and saw what they did, or were even engaged in their tactics.

There is no doubt, that if it wasn't for the people of 9/11 truth, along with Alex Jones, Paul would not have gotten near as far as he did.

May I remind you, at the time Ron Paul formed his exploratory committee, 9/11 truth, was at the zenith of growth all over the country. We were gaining in strength like never before. Most of which were very computer literate. When Ron Paul got ready for his debates, who do you think had the organization in place to bombard the media and the debates with weapons of information?

Email servers, personal phone numbers of big wigs in the GOP, and media. (I'm talking about cell phone, blackberry's, and home numbers)

May I ask that this be introduced into the record:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otZgd9wxE98

Keep in mind this is before the first debate, and Paul's FIRST mainstream media coverage.

You (Fellow Revolutionaries), that condem, and speak bad about us, are totally clueless as to the truth and the sheer numbers of us that make up the Ron Paul Revolution, We account for atleast 50% of Paul's total numbers.

You're eyes are open about 75% of the way, why not try to look at the subject as a neutral, objective, observer, and make your own conclusions.
Please watch this new film, it was just released, and it is a great background into the events behind 9/11.

Fabled Enemies
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2144933190875239407

Eric21ND
09-04-2008, 05:37 PM
Excuse me sir, if it wasn't for the 9/11 truth movement, and Alex Jones, Ron Paul would not have gotten near as far as he did.

Give respect where respect is due.

I was against the peolpe spouting 9/11 was an inside job DURING the campaign but now the campaign is over.

have you researched the facts of 9/11? Answer: No
It's obvious.
I think Youtube was a bigger factor in Ron Paul's success than Alex Jones and the truth movement...in fact at times they were a hinderance.

Eric21ND
09-04-2008, 05:45 PM
That's because you were not around those groups of people and saw what they did, or were even engaged in their tactics.

There is no doubt, that if it wasn't for the people of 9/11 truth, along with Alex Jones, Paul would not have gotten near as far as he did.

May I remind you, at the time Ron Paul formed his exploratory committee, 9/11 truth, was at the zenith of growth all over the country. We were gaining in strength like never before. Most of which were very computer literate. When Ron Paul got ready for his debates, who do you think had the organization in place to bombard the media and the debates with weapons of information?

Email servers, personal phone numbers of big wigs in the GOP, and media. (I'm talking about cell phone, blackberry's, and home numbers)

May I ask that this be introduced into the record:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otZgd9wxE98

Keep in mind this is before the first debate, and Paul's FIRST mainstream media coverage.

You (Fellow Revolutionaries), that condem, and speak bad about us, are totally clueless as to the truth and the sheer numbers of us that make up the Ron Paul Revolution, We account for atleast 50% of Paul's total numbers.
This is so utterly false I don't know where to begin. Your numbers are probably closer to 5% of Ron's number. Your movement is in the fringe of Ron Paul movement. Paul tapped into the underlying libertarian sentiment of this country, which is most prevalent online and with the younger generation.

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 05:48 PM
I respectfully disagree with this assertion. Unless 9/11 Truthers and Alex Jones were the catalyst to make Ron Paul a Congressman, get him to run for President and thereby get him in the debates, I disagree that RP would not have went as far as he did.

My assertion is that Ron exploded onto the stage is because a shitload of pissed off Republicans got jilted back into reality by his straight-talk in the debates.

In fact, I would have never heard of "9/11 Truth" or Alex Jones without Ron Paul. I think it is the other way around.

Alex Jones said himself on a few occasions that he had never heard of Ron Paul until the debates.... which, I don't know how he can be credited with giving Ron the spotlight, if he didn't know he was a congressman from a district not far from where he lives.

By all means Alex is a good American... and HAS done a lot for the Ron Paul Revolution... but giving him credit for what he hasn't done, is just as delusional as drones flying around the WTC.

Yet again, more baseless claims by truthers.

I found Ron Paul, then the 9/11 truth bowl movement through someone posting loose change on here.

All the truth movement will get from me anymore is the official story.



The truthers are really the dividing point in this movement and it makes me mad as hell. Not because they are truthers, but how the conduct themselves and what they say when the time is not appropriate.

Ron Paul's message won't destroy this movement, but magic bullet theories will.

jkr
09-04-2008, 05:53 PM
man, can we stop all this factioning off of our power? our unity

CAKochenash
09-04-2008, 05:54 PM
Damn i hate free speech and people's right to freely assemble....But I love Ron Paul....

Besides, truthers just sat on their ass the ENTIRE year and a half of the campaign...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Maybe this country isn't ready for Liberty...

RonPaulR3VOLUTION
09-04-2008, 06:02 PM
The 9/11 movement has pretty much taken over The Daily Paul http://www.dailypaul.com/forum/177 and a lot of the members are working to get everyone off of the site who doesn't agree that screaming '9/11 is an Inside Job' is the best plan to win.

Here is the message I posted there and was then called a troll/shill/whatever-it-was for doing so. I thought my post was pretty reasonable.

In summary, Ron Paul's approach works at least 1,000% better at gaining us allies than screaming '9/11 is an inside job!'

Full message:

Carl Cameron: "Sir, would you ask them to cease that rhetoric, tonight, on your behalf." [On the issue of 9/11 truthers]

Ron Paul: "Well, it doesn't do me any good, so, if they care about me they should .........."

Enough said.

Sadly, and it's a minority, these people just don't care. There are tons of 9/11 Truthers who have the sense to keep the two movements separate. A small minority though think it is worth it to destroy the Campaign for Liberty just to increase their group by a tiny percentage.

I have no problem with 9/11 Truth(ers) in general, but I do have a problem with those who attempt to selfishly hijack another movement because they have no faith in their own being successful. As usual, it's a selfish minority who become a thorn in the side for both movements.

It has nothing to do with who is right or wrong. Even if truthers are 100% right, it is still unethical to attack Ron Paul's movement. There are only two specific groups I've seen Ron Paul ask not to hijack his campaign, and the 9/11 movement was one of them. I *know* there are a ton of people who are in the 9/11 movement who support Paul but leave 9/11 out of it while at his events. These are the decent and ethical members of the 9/11 movement.

If you haven't noticed, Ron Paul attracts people to his movement with a POSITIVE message. A pro-American and pro-Constitution message. And it works when people have a chance to hear him. We've seen that. Right or wrong, the negative message that 9/11 is an inside job scares people away and makes people depressed, and turns them away from even considering listening to Ron Paul.

My main question is if the 9/11 movement is so popular and successful, why do they feel a need to try and hijack the liberty movement in the first place? Once again, I'm addressing the minority. The majority are ethical people who don't try to do this. Why doesn't the 9/11 have its own campaign and its own rallies? And if it already does, there is no reason to try and hijack this one.

In closing:

Carl Cameron: "Sir, would you ask them to cease that rhetoric, tonight, on your behalf." [On the issue of 9/11 truthers]

Ron Paul: "Well, it doesn't do me any good, so, if they care about me they should .........."

[Note: I never said the 9/11 movement in general was wrong nor did I imply anything of that nature. So, please keep all lying and smearing to yourself. It only does disservice to your cause. Thank you.]

Cowlesy
09-04-2008, 06:04 PM
That's because you were not around those groups of people and saw what they did, or were even engaged in their tactics.

There is no doubt, that if it wasn't for the people of 9/11 truth, along with Alex Jones, Paul would not have gotten near as far as he did.

May I remind you, at the time Ron Paul formed his exploratory committee, 9/11 truth, was at the zenith of growth all over the country. We were gaining in strength like never before. Most of which were very computer literate. When Ron Paul got ready for his debates, who do you think had the organization in place to bombard the media and the debates with weapons of information?

Email servers, personal phone numbers of big wigs in the GOP, and media. (I'm talking about cell phone, blackberry's, and home numbers)

May I ask that this be introduced into the record:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otZgd9wxE98

Keep in mind this is before the first debate, and Paul's FIRST mainstream media coverage.

You (Fellow Revolutionaries), that condem, and speak bad about us, are totally clueless as to the truth and the sheer numbers of us that make up the Ron Paul Revolution, We account for atleast 50% of Paul's total numbers.

You're eyes are open about 75% of the way, why not try to look at the subject as a neutral, objective, observer, and make your own conclusions.
Please watch this new film, it was just released, and it is a great background into the events behind 9/11.

Fabled Enemies
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2144933190875239407

First off, as much as I have been annoyed having to do it, I have been an ardent "Truther" defender on here though I completely disagree with you on the subject. So I take a bit of offense about being called "totally clueless" after I have indeed watched Loose Change, and have spent time informing people that many activists are in-fact Truthers and that actually many of them did NOT wrap their 9/11 Truth in with their campaigning.

And just so you are aware, I am in NYC where our Meetup had a large concentration of 9/11 Truth folks (probably 10-15%), but whenever we were out campaigning, they never wore their shirts or carried those signs or handed out 9/11 Truth stamped stuff because at that point they were campaigning for Ron PAUL, not 9/11 Truth. In fact a lot of the people I later found out were 9/11 folks were some of our best campaigners which is why I always bristle at the fact when people bucket ALL Truthers as detrimental to the campaign.

So you will not hear me knock 9/11 Truthers as campaigners, but just like any other subset of supporters, you WILL have some bad-apples that twitch at the idea of not pushing their pet-agenda when they campaign. I remember at a rally in Michigan a Truther handed out some 9/11 Inside Job items to a reporter from I believe the Boston Globe, and of course it made at least their online media content.

Bottomline is, if folks are campaigning whether they are Truthers or official-story-people or some other sort of zealot or non-zealot, campaigning takes finesse as you are talking to walking zombies in many cases. All the 9/11 Truth folks I campaigned alongside were amazing, but that doesn't mean the bushel doesn't have a bad apple or two.

rbu
09-04-2008, 06:06 PM
Anyone who thinks truthers make up less than 10% of the supporters should take a second to remember how the mainstream media said Paul supporters were just a few spammers on the Internet. We all know how wrong that was. I won't claim truthers are the majority but a large portion to say the least.

RonPaulR3VOLUTION
09-04-2008, 06:07 PM
I'd also like to add that Alex Jones does NOT show up at Ron Paul's events yelling '9/11 was an inside job'. So, bringing up Alex Jones is the very opposite of supporting the case to do so, since Alex Jones himself seems to think it's a bad move -- or at least cares about Ron Paul and his movement enough to respect his wishes.

specsaregood
09-04-2008, 06:12 PM
If by 'supporter' you mean someone who voted for Ron Paul and didn't do much more besides that, you are probably correct.

But if you are talking about the people who actively campaigned for RP, i strongly disagree. At least from my experience.

That's not true IF "truther" == Controlled Demolition only. If you mean "truther" in a much broader sense (such as Ron Paul's position) then I would agree. I am a "truther" in the sense that I think there were coverups and perhaps foreknowledge; but have been far from convinced with the CD theories.

Yes, I would say most active RP supporters are "truthers" in the broad sense; but not in the CD-only theory sense. In fact, I think the theory that CD has been promoted to such an extent as to cloud the issue and pigeon-hole "truthers" as nutcases has some merit to it.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 06:29 PM
Alex Jones said himself on a few occasions that he had never heard of Ron Paul until the debates....

Completely False, you are now discredited.
Alex and Paul have been friends for about 10 years.

This film came out, i think, in 2003 Ron Paul is the main speaker in this film.
Matrix of Evil:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-390424387879906415



By all means Alex is a good American... and HAS done a lot for the Ron Paul Revolution... but giving him credit for what he hasn't done, is just as delusional as drones flying around the WTC.


Once again, you are discredited.



Yet again, more baseless claims by truthers.
Looks like a baseless claim by you




The truthers are really the dividing point in this movement and it makes me mad as hell. Not because they are truthers, but how the conduct themselves and what they say when the time is not appropriate.

Ron Paul's message won't destroy this movement, but magic bullet theories will.

I have told my fellow truthers to leave it out of Ron Paul's campaign.
The campaign is over, and people need to learn of the truth about 9/11.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 06:31 PM
I think Youtube was a bigger factor in Ron Paul's success than Alex Jones and the truth movement...in fact at times they were a hinderance.

Youtube, yes, it was. But that was another tactic done by 9/11 truthers, we used the same tactic to get our videos to the top of google video for a year.

9/11 truthers were a hindrance, i have no doubt about that, that's why i told them to shut up about it while trying to get Ron Paul elected.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 06:32 PM
This is so utterly false I don't know where to begin. Your numbers are probably closer to 5% of Ron's number. Your movement is in the fringe of Ron Paul movement. Paul tapped into the underlying libertarian sentiment of this country, which is most prevalent online and with the younger generation.

You are utterly false.
yes, Paul tapped into the libertarians, and republicans that were antiwar.
But like I said, if not for us and alex jones, he would not have lasted past the first or second debate. to think different, is to kid yourself.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 06:34 PM
Besides, truthers just sat on their ass the ENTIRE year and a half of the campaign...


Excuse me? where do you get such a opinion?

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 06:36 PM
The 9/11 movement

I am sorry for the harsh language, but you must realize that most of us are truthers, some admit it, some do not, but most of us are.

you found that out, when you posted that article.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 06:39 PM
First off, as much as I have been annoyed having to do it, I have been an ardent "Truther" defender on here though I completely disagree with you on the subject. So I take a bit of offense about being called "totally clueless" after I have indeed watched Loose Change, and have spent time informing people that many activists are in-fact Truthers and that actually many of them did NOT wrap their 9/11 Truth in with their campaigning.

And just so you are aware, I am in NYC where our Meetup had a large concentration of 9/11 Truth folks (probably 10-15%), but whenever we were out campaigning, they never wore their shirts or carried those signs or handed out 9/11 Truth stamped stuff because at that point they were campaigning for Ron PAUL, not 9/11 Truth. In fact a lot of the people I later found out were 9/11 folks were some of our best campaigners which is why I always bristle at the fact when people bucket ALL Truthers as detrimental to the campaign.

So you will not hear me knock 9/11 Truthers as campaigners, but just like any other subset of supporters, you WILL have some bad-apples that twitch at the idea of not pushing their pet-agenda when they campaign. I remember at a rally in Michigan a Truther handed out some 9/11 Inside Job items to a reporter from I believe the Boston Globe, and of course it made at least their online media content.

Bottomline is, if folks are campaigning whether they are Truthers or official-story-people or some other sort of zealot or non-zealot, campaigning takes finesse as you are talking to walking zombies in many cases. All the 9/11 Truth folks I campaigned alongside were amazing, but that doesn't mean the bushel doesn't have a bad apple or two.

you just gave a fine example of responsible, adult's that cared so much for this country, they could see that if the constitution was followed, 9/11 would have probably never happened.

Like I said before. I told everyone I knew, to not say a word about 9/11 while campaigning for Mr. Paul.

Jaykzo
09-04-2008, 07:04 PM
Its pathetic, really.

You'd think that anyone wise enough to understand that all of 9/11's questions haven't been answered would also be wise enough to understand that chanting crap like that will only supress our movement.

If you like to think of yourself as a martyr because you're "brave enough to speak the truth," then keep at it. See how far it gets us. Theres a place and a time for 9/11 conspiracy talk- Far away from the CFL.

RonPaulR3VOLUTION
09-04-2008, 07:06 PM
I am sorry for the harsh language, but you must realize that most of us are truthers, some admit it, some do not, but most of us are.

you found that out, when you posted that article.

That's not the point. There is nothing anti-truther in my article. A pro-Constitution message attracts people at least 1,000% better than the 9/11 message. Why use the inferior message that pushes so many away instead of Ron Paul's message which works so well? That's the issue.

The media loves when people show up at Ron Paul rallies and talk about 9/11. It's one of the first things they look for to discredit him with. Why would anyone want to play into the media's hands, which hurts the movement and Ron Paul? Do you think the media brings up 9/11 repeatedly when they bring up Ron Paul for your or his benefit?

So CNN or whoever brings up 9/11 again in relation to Ron Paul.

Truther: YAY!! We got on the news again by using Ron Paul!!!

RP supporter: But it's making him look bad and hurting his campaign and he specifically asked people not to....

Truther: That's all a lie! That's just what THEY want you to believe! People love the 9/11 message way more than the Constitution message!! And even if it hurts Ron Paul so what! It's worth it!! Getting out the 9/11 truth will solve all of our problems even if it really has nothing to do with our main problems!!

RP supporter: a small and open government would solve the 9/11 problem even if it was by our own government though...

Truther: 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!!

RP supporter: oookaaaayyyyyyy.

Truther: SHILL!

Yeah, a huge exaggeration and oversimplification, but just head over to Daily Paul and see it's not so far off.

Carl Cameron: "Sir, would you ask them to cease that rhetoric, tonight, on your behalf." [On the issue of 9/11 truthers]

Ron Paul: "Well, it doesn't do me any good, so, if they care about me they should "

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 07:08 PM
Its pathetic, really.

You'd think that anyone wise enough to understand that all of 9/11's questions haven't been answered would also be wise enough to understand that chanting crap like that will only supress our movement.

you would also think that doing that ONCE at ONE event, showed how restrained we have been.

I am aware that there are certain places and times for such actions. That's why i told all my fellow 9/11 truthers to not say a word about 9/11 while campaigning for Paul.

However, if a stadium, filled with 12,000 people, of which 2,000, atleast were truthers, long after Ron Paul suspended his campaign, is not the right place or time, i wonder what would be?

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 07:12 PM
That's not the point. There is nothing anti-truther in my article. A pro-Constitution message attracts people at least 1,000% better than the 9/11 message. Why use the inferior message that pushes so many away instead of Ron Paul's message which works so well? That's the issue.

The media loves when people show up at Ron Paul rallies and talk about 9/11. It's one of the first things they look for to discredit him with. Why would anyone want to play into the media's hands, which hurts the movement and Ron Paul? Do you think the media brings up 9/11 repeatedly when they bring up Ron Paul for your or his benefit?

So CNN or whoever brings up 9/11 again in relation to Ron Paul.

Truther: YAY!! We got on the news again by using Ron Paul!!!

RP supporter: But it's making him look bad and hurting his campaign and he specifically asked people not to....

Truther: That's all a lie! That's just what THEY want you to believe! People love the 9/11 message way more than the Constitution message!! And even if it hurts Ron Paul so what! It's worth it!! Getting out the 9/11 truth will solve all of our problems even if it really has nothing to do with our main problems!!

RP supporter: a small and open government would solve the 9/11 problem even if it was by our own government though...

Truther: 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!!

RP supporter: oookaaaayyyyyyy.

Truther: SHILL!

Yeah, a huge exaggeration and oversimplification, but just head over to Daily Paul and see it's not so far off.

Carl Cameron: "Sir, would you ask them to cease that rhetoric, tonight, on your behalf." [On the issue of 9/11 truthers]

Ron Paul: "Well, it doesn't do me any good, so, if they care about me they should "

I understand what you're saying, and if I saw that happening, i would have prabably Body Slammed that a$$hole. He is either a complete and total moron, or a CIA operative.

Alex Jones, to his discredit, was encouraging people to do that at Ron Paul rallys, and events.

I know it was damaging, but only a few people actually have enough brains to understand what they are doing.

CAKochenash
09-04-2008, 07:18 PM
Excuse me? where do you get such a opinion?


You should probably calm down a tad.

I was standing up for your 1st amendment.

The previous statement you quoted was intended to be read very sarcastically, as was the entire comment.

You can't get so heated when discussing a very unknown topic, it can turn people off.

Please, for the sake of furthering the message you are attempting to convey, calm down.

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 07:28 PM
Completely False, you are now discredited.
Alex and Paul have been friends for about 10 years.

This film came out, i think, in 2003 Ron Paul is the main speaker in this film.
Matrix of Evil:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-390424387879906415



Once again, you are discredited.



Looks like a baseless claim by you




I have told my fellow truthers to leave it out of Ron Paul's campaign.
The campaign is over, and people need to learn of the truth about 9/11.

Ok,

1)I am just saying what AJ said on numerous occasions. Those aren't my words. But seeing how he exaggerates things constantly, I can see where there is confusion on how he knows Ron.

2)How?

3)How?

4)Great. If We are Change and the CFL want to team up, fantastic, I'll drop my support.

PatriotOne
09-04-2008, 07:31 PM
I heard there was some kind of altercation between the asshole truthers and Tucker Carlson. They supposedly scared him off & he stopped being MC. What exactly happened??

Where's your source or are you just pulling this out of your ass?

Jaykzo
09-04-2008, 07:32 PM
you would also think that doing that ONCE at ONE event, showed how restrained we have been.

I am aware that there are certain places and times for such actions. That's why i told all my fellow 9/11 truthers to not say a word about 9/11 while campaigning for Paul.

However, if a stadium, filled with 12,000 people, of which 2,000, atleast were truthers, long after Ron Paul suspended his campaign, is not the right place or time, i wonder what would be?


The right place for a discussion of that magnitude (or even a chant) is best left in private, between close friends and family members. Not at a rally that everyone knows will be broadcast nationally, and viewed globally.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 07:49 PM
Ok,

1)I am just saying what AJ said on numerous occasions. Those aren't my words. But seeing how he exaggerates things constantly, I can see where there is confusion on how he knows Ron.

2)How?

3)How?

4)Great. If We are Change and the CFL want to team up, fantastic, I'll drop my support.

2) because you don;t even know how Paul and Jones know each other.

3) because you don;t even know how Paul and Jones know each other.

4) pervert what i'm saying why don't you.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 07:54 PM
The right place for a discussion of that magnitude (or even a chant) is best left in private, between close friends and family members. Not at a rally that everyone knows will be broadcast nationally, and viewed globally.

i wonder how the American people are susposed to find out the truth about 9/11?
Word of mouth?

We've tried that for 7 years.
We have made great advances, but time is almost up. How long until something of that nature would be acceptable to you?

SeanEdwards
09-04-2008, 07:56 PM
Whatever. Tucker showing up at that press conference with a bunch of hookers did more to harm Ron Paul among conservative GOP primary voters than the actions of all the "truthers" combined.


ROFL! Hookers are wholesome family fun compared to the public abortion that is the "truther" movement.

SeanEdwards
09-04-2008, 08:01 PM
I am sorry for the harsh language, but you must realize that most of us are truthers

No, you're just loud.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 08:08 PM
No, you're just loud.

I was apologizing for other peoples language, not mine.

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 08:09 PM
No, you're just loud.

Loud through letters on a computer screen, thanks for the complement.

ClayTrainor
09-04-2008, 08:25 PM
To all of you bashing the truthers, thinking they are hurting the movement....

Do you realize that we are all conspiracy theorists in the eyes of the media?

We've been called conspiracy nuts for saying the NAU is real, we get called conspiracy nuts for talking about New World Order, we've been called conspiracy nuts for claiming the FED is destroying the Economy.

Go ahead and think it's the "truthers" responsible for the media bashing us. We are ALL conspiracy theorists in the eyes of the mainstream, whether you accept it or not.

It has nothign to do with 911... 911 truthers are just 1 of many "conspiracy groups" involved and working together in the Ron Paul campaign

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 08:26 PM
2) because you don;t even know how Paul and Jones know each other.

3) because you don;t even know how Paul and Jones know each other.

4) pervert what i'm saying why don't you.

Why don't I drop my support because I think the issue of 9/11 "truth" has no place with Ron Paul's movement?

Do we not agree on this issue Chester Molester?

I just said what Alex said, I guess he is a liar, and he is discredited to me. Guess I should have known not to take anything AJ says seriously.

RickyJ
09-04-2008, 08:30 PM
truthers piss me off!


they were at the march too..


they are like parasites.

You sheeple will never learn even though your leader gives you numerous clues as to what he really thinks about 9/11. HE INVITED JESSE TO SPEAK AT THE RALLY WHILE KNOWING HIS VIEWS ABOUT 9/11 BEFOREHAND! HE REGURALY GOES ON ALEX JONES RADIO PROGRAM WHILE KNOWING MOST OF ALEX'S LISTENERS ARE 9/11 TRUTHERS!.

Please buy a clue!

V4Vendetta
09-04-2008, 08:32 PM
I just said what Alex said, I guess he is a liar, and he is discredited to me. Guess I should have known not to take anything AJ says seriously.

Alex Jones never said "I never knew Ron Paul till the first debate"

ClayTrainor
09-04-2008, 08:37 PM
Alex Jones never said "I never knew Ron Paul till the first debate"

I hear this alot V4V

not too sure where people are getting it from. Either way it doesn't really matter, Ron Paul is not afraid to associate himself with 911 Truth.

That may piss off some of our fellow comrades, but their angst towards truthers pisses me off, so... i guess we'll just have to live, being pissed off at eachother but, we have the same goals, our philosophical view on the government and world politics is almost exactly the same.

we need to Deal with eachothers existence. Maybe the truthers are stupid, maybe "debunkers" arent as informed as they'd like to think...


Who gives a Fuck? :)

RonPaulR3VOLUTION
09-04-2008, 08:38 PM
You sheeple will never learn even though your leader gives you numerous clues as to what he really thinks about 9/11. HE INVITED JESSE TO SPEAK AT THE RALLY WHILE KNOWING HIS VIEWS ABOUT 9/11 BEFOREHAND! HE REGURALY GOES ON ALEX JONES RADIO PROGRAM WHILE KNOWING MOST OF ALEX'S LISTENERS ARE 9/11 TRUTHERS!.

Please buy a clue!

The thing is that even if that is true, that just means even Ron Paul thinks talking about 9/11 being an inside job would do more harm than good for the movement. Ron Paul already has a pro-Constitution and pro-American message that attracts people and turns them into supporters almost instantly if they get a chance to hear it. I still see no reason to use an inferior talking point that brings in much less support and even drives people away.

The type of people we need to bring in are the very ones who don't want to hear anything about 9/11 being an inside job. If they start to believe that after joining the group, then so be it.. But that doesn't change that it is *not* a good way to introduce people to the message of liberty, especially when a much much better and positive introduction is already available.

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 08:47 PM
Alex Jones never said "I never knew Ron Paul till the first debate"

Your word against mine...

And, Yeah, he did. He even said that he didn't even know what district he was in, and was surprised to find out he was close.


But he has also said that 'The British Government is now censoring Prison Planet', when it was really in a few train stations.

He has said some senators have children brought to their office so they can molest them...No proof of this.

Do you happen to remember his show running up to Y2K??

He has a history of lying and exaggerations. I'm sorry for even quoting that guy.

vodalian
09-04-2008, 10:00 PM
I find it quite funny how some people here in one breath will preach about the constitution and liberty, and in the next, imply that people don't have the right to personal beliefs and freedom of speech. Thankfully, most people in this movement doesn't visit this forum, otherwise I would have very little faith in this movement for LIBERTY, which many people here can't seem to grasp the definition of.

A true libertarian doesn't care about what you believe, or say, or chant, or protest...

MikeStanart
09-04-2008, 10:32 PM
The fact is:

Ron Paul has said himself, that this movement is DIVERSE. We all have different beliefs, backgrounds, and ideas.

However, we all have one thing in common, that is LIBERTY.



Our main goal should be to give a chance for the seeds of liberty to be sown.

We need to be STRATEGIC in our efforts to sow these seeds.

I think it is very obvious that the Taboo nature surrounding 9/11 truth is

not advantageous for sowing these seeds (PUBLICLY). Therefore, we must keep

therories like 9/11 on the DOWN LOW, until we hold legitimate power in poliitcs,

which will make our questioning more legitimate.

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 10:32 PM
(response to vodalian)

Then a true Libertarian should realize that I have a right to be openly against what they are saying and doing.

I don't think 9/11 gear should be banned from CFL rallies, I believe people should show personal restraint and the ability to appeal to the establishment Republicans.

MikeStanart, +1776

Like I said in another thread, To be the Establishment, you have to play the Establishment game. I don't know if you agree with this statement, but controversial topics only bring controversy.

MikeStanart
09-04-2008, 10:35 PM
I find it quite funny how some people here in one breath will preach about the constitution and liberty, and in the next, imply that people don't have the right to personal beliefs and freedom of speech. Thankfully, most people in this movement doesn't visit this forum, otherwise I would have very little faith in this movement for LIBERTY, which many people here can't seem to grasp the definition of.

A true libertarian doesn't care about what you believe, or say, or chant, or protest...

I completely agree. However, it will be quite some time until 9/11 truth theories will become less taboo. Because of this taboo nature, we must abstain from connecting ourselves with this message in order to be more legitimate in the eyes of those who consider joining us.

Jeremy
09-04-2008, 10:35 PM
is that really why tucker left?

man, ive always disliked truthers

i cant believe this...

durden0
09-04-2008, 10:37 PM
I think we would all be doing ourselves a favor if we learn to espouse our different messages the Ron Paul way, very non-aggressively and without an air of superiority, with calmness and rationality.


I must admit I felt very uncomfortable when the subject of conspiracy theories was brought up at my local meetup and I posed some skepticism about those theories only to be met with odd looks and a constant spew of questions and 'facts'.

If the CFL wants to train us in something, I hope it's on how to passively express the message the way ron paul does.

MikeStanart
09-04-2008, 10:42 PM
:-(

VoteForRonPaul
09-04-2008, 10:56 PM
The fact is:

Ron Paul has said himself, that this movement is DIVERSE. We all have different beliefs, backgrounds, and ideas.

However, we all have one thing in common, that is LIBERTY.

Our main goal should be to give a chance for the seeds of liberty to be sown.

We need to be STRATEGIC in our efforts to sow these seeds.

I think it is very obvious that the Taboo nature surrounding 9/11 truth is

not advantageous for sowing these seeds (PUBLICLY). Therefore, we must keep

therories like 9/11 on the DOWN LOW, until we hold legitimate power in poliitcs,

which will make our questioning more legitimate.
I got to disagree with you. The Neocones have dug their grave on 9/11 and we got to push them in it. It is their biggest mistake ever and we should not waste this chance or we would be fools. We cannot wait for a politician to be elected, politicians are like clay can easily be shaped. The time is running and the American memory is not that good. Have not you heard of Bob Barr talk with Glenn Beck. Listen carefully to your politicians.

Glenn Beck: "When Ron Paul was running I had several run-ins with these people called the 9-11 Truthers. They say we blew up the World Trade Center. You?"

Bob Barr:"I don't pay any attention to that. None at all. I've heard the same thing. We heard it when we did some investigations of Waco, the same sort of stuff. We gotta move beyond that. I mean there are real problems facing us and the world that we can actually do something about without worrying about conspira[cies] of times past.
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past.times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past.times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past.times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past.times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past.times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past.times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past.times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past.times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past.times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past
times past times past times past times past




Wakeup people!
9/11 Now Or Never!

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 11:06 PM
I find it quite funny how some people here in one breath will preach about the constitution and liberty, and in the next, imply that people don't have the right to personal beliefs and freedom of speech. Thankfully, most people in this movement doesn't visit this forum, otherwise I would have very little faith in this movement for LIBERTY, which many people here can't seem to grasp the definition of.

A true libertarian doesn't care about what you believe, or say, or chant, or protest...


I got to disagree with you. The Neocones have dug their grave on 9/11 and we got to push them in it. It is their biggest mistake ever and we should not waste this chance or we would be fools. We cannot wait for a politician to be elected, politicians are like clay can easily be shaped. The time is running and the American memory is not that good. Have not you heard of Bob Barr talk with Glenn Beck.

9/11 Now Or Never![/SIZE][/CENTER]

Ill take never, if this is how its going to be done.

Jeremy
09-04-2008, 11:08 PM
truthers have done nothing for liberty in america

all they care about is their false lala land coming true

richardfortherepublic
09-04-2008, 11:10 PM
is that really why tucker left?

man, ive always disliked truthers

i cant believe this...

Dude, this whole deal pissed me off to the point that I resigned from We are Change.

The truthers just have to have the cake and eat it... even if it isn't their party.

Jeremy
09-04-2008, 11:12 PM
can we like get a confirmation on this though

if this proves to be the reason why he left (certainly thousands of others were scared when it happened as well), i will strengthen my crusade against truther-extremists =)

VoteForRonPaul
09-04-2008, 11:26 PM
can we like get a confirmation on this though
if this proves to be the reason why he left (certainly thousands of others were scared when it happened as well), i will strengthen my crusade against truther-extremists =)
Tucker is another hypocrite and whoever cares about is most likely to be another hypocrite sitting among us.

jmdrake
09-04-2008, 11:56 PM
I heard there was some kind of altercation between the asshole truthers and Tucker Carlson. They supposedly scared him off & he stopped being MC. What exactly happened?? I also heard the truthers were chanting "911 was an inside job" during the Ventura speech. Why wont the truthers just go away or shut the hell up? It seems they use this movement of small government, free markets & anti-war and turned it into a conspiracy theory camp. It really angers me that they are destroying the movement.

1) Why didn't you post this in hot topics? By posting it on the main forum you are causing the very problems you claim truthers cause.

2) If you really are concerned about truthers, why start a thread that's an obvious flamebait which will only cause an issue you wish wasn't prominent to be so? (See point #1). I don't like racism, but I don't go around posting "anti racist" threads because it would invariably bring up the very discussions I wish to avoid.

3) Why do you think Ron Paul invited two prominent truthers to speak at the CFL? Do you think he was hoping they would "go away" or "shut up"?

4) Considering the fact that Ron Paul received over TWICE the votes in 2008 with truther support than he did in 1988 without it, how can you honestly claim that truthers are "destroying the movement"? :rolleyes:

5) Does it bother you when Ron Paul repeatedly goes on the Alex Jones show and makes major campaign announcements? For example the CFL was first announced on the Alex Jones show. Would Dr. Paul do that if he really wanted truthers to "go away"?

6) Do you understand that the MSM dismisses a lot of Ron Paul's positions as "conspiracy theory"? The North American Union. The NAFTA superhighway. The illegality of the income tax. The idea that the Federal Reserve is undermining the U.S. economy. All of that has been repeatedly dismissed as "conspiracy theory". So any movement associated with Ron Paul will get a "conspiracy theory" tag attached to it regardless of 9/11.

7) Do you realize that Dr. Paul is no longer running for president? I know I'm belaboring the obvious here, but this is an important point. We are in a new phase now. It's no longer about electing a particular candidate to a particular office during one particular election cycle. If it was I doubt Dr. Paul would have invited governor Ventura to speak in the first place. And really you throwing a hissy fit is insulting to Dr. Paul's intelligence. Obviously there were going to be a large number of truthers at the rally. (The only obvious reason for announcing this first on Alex Jones was to insure some of his listeners would attend to help swell the crowd). Obviously there was a risk of governor Ventura saying something related to 9/11. Obviously there was a risk that such a combination would erupt in a 9/11 chant. It's as obvious as the risk of smoking while pumping gasoline. If what happened concerns you so much get involved with the CFL leadership so you can try to tell Dr. Paul what to do. Or better yet shut up and go away your own self.

Regards,

John M. Drake

jmdrake
09-05-2008, 12:02 AM
not true.

I would estimate less then 10% of the real world Ron Paul supporters fit the "truther" label.

The Script Howard poll suggests 30% of Americans are truthers. Unless you think truthers are statistically LESS likely to support Dr. Paul than the general population (despite all of Dr. Paul's efforts to reach out to truthers on the Alex Jones show) your assertion makes absolutely ZERO sense. I suspect you've reached this ridiculously low number because most truthers have followed the unwritten "Don't go running around talking about 9/11 while campaigning for Dr. Paul" rule. It's a catch 22. If truthers make their voices heard it's condemned as "hijacking the campaign". If they don't people (purposefully?) underestimate their numbers.

Regards,

John M. Drake

tremendoustie
09-05-2008, 12:04 AM
you would also think that doing that ONCE at ONE event, showed how restrained we have been.

I am aware that there are certain places and times for such actions. That's why i told all my fellow 9/11 truthers to not say a word about 9/11 while campaigning for Paul.

However, if a stadium, filled with 12,000 people, of which 2,000, atleast were truthers, long after Ron Paul suspended his campaign, is not the right place or time, i wonder what would be?

That would be at a 9/11 rally, or some other event associated with the truther movement, or on your own -- not in a situation when you know your beliefs will be falsely assigned to the liberty movement.

Look, I'm not a "truther", but I do agree with a full investigation. I also disbelieve the "official" story on evolution. Would I stand up at a CFL rally with signs saying, "evolution is a hoax, study the science for yourself?" No! Because that is not the purpose of the CFL and I would be hijacking the movement for my own purposes. I will attend debates or discuss science regarding macro evolution on my own time. Who cares if the campaign is over? The movement is as important as ever. I am proud to have truthers among us, who will work hard along side me for liberty, and use their freedom with discretion. I wish those who are not able to use their freedom of speech with discretion, and cannot restrain themselves from harming a movement that serves their own interests and purposes, would just leave (or preferably join the former group). Shouting '9/11' truth does nothing for your cause, but kills the last best chance you have of ever getting a real investigation. By all means, if you want a closed government forever, and never want to learn the 'truth', be as brash and loud as possible, and never miss an opportunity to brand the CFL with your 9/11 message. Shoot yourself and all of us in the head, forget the foot.

jmdrake
09-05-2008, 12:17 AM
That would be at a 9/11 rally, or some other event associated with the truther movement, or on your own -- not in a situation when you know your beliefs will be falsely assigned to the liberty movement.

Look, I'm not a "truther", but I do agree with a full investigation. I also disbelieve the "official" story on evolution. Would I stand up at a CFL rally with signs saying, "evolution is a hoax, study the science for yourself?" No! Because that is not the purpose of the CFL and I would be hijacking the movement for my own purposes. I will attend debates or discuss science regarding macro evolution on my own time. Who cares if the campaign is over? The movement is as important as ever. I am proud to have truthers among us, who will work hard along side me for liberty, and use their freedom with discretion. I wish those who are not able to use their freedom of speech with discretion, and cannot restrain themselves from harming a movement that serves their own interests and purposes, would just leave (or preferably join the former group).

The difference is:

1) The evolution debate has little to do with our current state of affairs. 9/11 does. For example Giuliani chided the democrats for "not mentioning 9/11 enough".

2) A well known 9/11 skeptic (Ventura) was asked to speak and touched on the subject.

3) The CFL rally was first announced on a 9/11 truther show. (Who's hijacking who?)

If you want a better "scientific analogy" think "global warming". Like 9/11 it has a VERY REAL possibility of causing a TREMENDOUS growth in government and proportional loss of freedom. Say if John Coleman (founder of the weather channel who called global warming "the greatest scam in history (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/11/07/weather-channel-founder-global-warming-greatest-scam-history)") had been asked to speak? If those of us who believe Al Gore has been taking this country for a ride with his "inconvenient mistruths" cheered him on when he touched on the subject would we be "hijacking the movement"? I think not. You may and you're entitled to your opinion. Ron Paul took a calculated risk inviting Ventura to speak an promoting the rally as he did. Nobody should be surprised at the results.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Jaykzo
09-05-2008, 12:22 AM
1)
4) Considering the fact that Ron Paul received over TWICE the votes in 2008 with truther support than he did in 1988 without it, how can you honestly claim that truthers are "destroying the movement"? :rolleyes:




How could he have possibly gained the support of the truther movement in 1988 when 9/11 didn't happen till 2001? Thats a terrible point you're trying to make there, and there is a lot of logic lacking in asking such a question.

tremendoustie
09-05-2008, 12:31 AM
The Script Howard poll suggests 30% of Americans are truthers. Unless you think truthers are statistically LESS likely to support Dr. Paul than the general population (despite all of Dr. Paul's efforts to reach out to truthers on the Alex Jones show) your assertion makes absolutely ZERO sense. I suspect you've reached this ridiculously low number because most truthers have followed the unwritten "Don't go running around talking about 9/11 while campaigning for Dr. Paul" rule. It's a catch 22. If truthers make their voices heard it's condemned as "hijacking the campaign". If they don't people (purposefully?) underestimate their numbers.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Make your numbers known -- go for it! Just don't do it within the CFL. Go to CFL rally in the morning, wear a "Liberty" hat and hold "Freedom now" signs. Then, in the afternoon, go across town to a 9/11 rally, wear a "truth now" hat and hold a "9/11 was an inside job" sign. It's not rocket science. If your numbers are there you will be able to do it outside of the CFL, and in any case, you will not be harming a movement that is your and all of our best chance for real liberty in the near future.

yaz
09-05-2008, 12:33 AM
I heard there was some kind of altercation between the asshole truthers and Tucker Carlson. They supposedly scared him off & he stopped being MC. What exactly happened?? I also heard the truthers were chanting "911 was an inside job" during the Ventura speech. Why wont the truthers just go away or shut the hell up? It seems they use this movement of small government, free markets & anti-war and turned it into a conspiracy theory camp. It really angers me that they are destroying the movement.

I agree.

tremendoustie
09-05-2008, 12:35 AM
The difference is:

1) The evolution debate has little to do with our current state of affairs. 9/11 does. For example Giuliani chided the democrats for "not mentioning 9/11 enough".

2) A well known 9/11 skeptic (Ventura) was asked to speak and touched on the subject.

3) The CFL rally was first announced on a 9/11 truther show. (Who's hijacking who?)

If you want a better "scientific analogy" think "global warming". Like 9/11 it has a VERY REAL possibility of causing a TREMENDOUS growth in government and proportional loss of freedom. Say if John Coleman (founder of the weather channel who called global warming "the greatest scam in history (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/11/07/weather-channel-founder-global-warming-greatest-scam-history)") had been asked to speak? If those of us who believe Al Gore has been taking this country for a ride with his "inconvenient mistruths" cheered him on when he touched on the subject would we be "hijacking the movement"? I think not. You may and you're entitled to your opinion. Ron Paul took a calculated risk inviting Ventura to speak an promoting the rally as he did. Nobody should be surprised at the results.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Fine, take "global warming" -- I don't believe it is man made. Yet, if Paul has not adopted a stance on global warming and incorporated it as a plank in the CFL, I will not use CFL events to hold signs stating, "global climate change is caused by the sun and not people". I will promote these ideas in my own spheres of influence and at events separate from the CFL. This way, those who believe global warming is manmade will not erroneously assign my views to the CFL, and I will not harm what I consider to be a very important movement.

To some extent, yes, inviting Ventura (and not asking him to stay off the subject) was asking for it. I'm just saying, in all events and efforts associated with the CFL, let's stick to promoting the core issues of the CFL -- namely, a return to consitutional government and the restoration of liberty. These are big enough pills for most to swallow -- we don't need to make it harder for people than it already is. What's more, the widespread acceptance of these views is your best shot at '9/11 truth' anyway!

jmdrake
09-05-2008, 12:39 AM
How could he have possibly gained the support of the truther movement in 1988 when 9/11 didn't happen till 2001? Thats a terrible point you're trying to make there, and there is a lot of logic lacking in asking such a question.

9/11 hadn't happened in 1988? You don't say? :D

You're missing the point. If truthers were "destroying" Ron Paul's movement then his numbers should have gone DOWN in 2008 instead of UP! Logic must not be your strength.

Regards,

John M. Drake

jmdrake
09-05-2008, 12:42 AM
Fine, take "global warming" -- I don't believe it is man made. Yet, if Paul has not adopted a stance on global warming and incorporated it as a plank in the CFL, I will not use CFL events to hold signs stating, "global climate change is caused by the sun and not people". I will promote these ideas in my own spheres of influence and at events separate from the CFL. This way, those who believe global warming is manmade will not erroneously assign my views to the CFL, and I will not harm what I consider to be a very important movement.

Like I said. You're entitled to your opinion. But if Ron Paul had adopted a position against the Al Gore remedy to "global warming" (he has) while not (at least publicly) stating that "man made" global warming was a hoax, and then invited someone known for publicly questioning global warming to speak anyone who got upset because people cheered on that speaker when he questioned man made global warming at a rally wouldn't be thinking straight. (In my opinion of course).

Regards,

John M. Drake

jmdrake
09-05-2008, 12:45 AM
Make your numbers known -- go for it! Just don't do it within the CFL. Go to CFL rally in the morning, wear a "Liberty" hat and hold "Freedom now" signs. Then, in the afternoon, go across town to a 9/11 rally, wear a "truth now" hat and hold a "9/11 was an inside job" sign. It's not rocket science. If your numbers are there you will be able to do it outside of the CFL, and in any case, you will not be harming a movement that is your and all of our best chance for real liberty in the near future.

As I told the OP, if you don't like the fact that Ron Paul massively promoted this on a 9/11 truther radio show and then asked two prominent 9/11 truthers to speak then take it up with him. Because what happened at the rally is merely a result of those two actions. If you light a cigarette while pumping gasoline.....enough said.

Regards,

John M. Drake

dannno
09-05-2008, 12:56 AM
Wow.

If anybody still has a problem with 'truthers' in this movement, then please re-read JM Drake's posts on this page. He just pwned a bunch of people.

tremendoustie
09-05-2008, 12:59 AM
Like I said. You're entitled to your opinion. But if Ron Paul had adopted a position against the Al Gore remedy to "global warming" (he has) while not (at least publicly) stating that "man made" global warming was a hoax, and then invited someone known for publicly questioning global warming to speak anyone who got upset because people cheered on that speaker when he questioned man made global warming at a rally wouldn't be thinking straight. (In my opinion of course).

Regards,

John M. Drake

(see the remainder of my earlier post, which I subsequently edited -- sorry about that)

The purpose of inviting Ventura was not to discuss 9/11 truth -- I know this because Paul has repeatedly said that 9/11 truth is not his message, and indeed that he doesn't believe the government instigated 9/11. Those who disagree with Paul are welcome in the movement! But, they should not use the movement to promote these ideas.

The Ventura case is a little special, since he was an official speaker at a CFL event and he did bring up the subject -- my point is more general. We should do our best to keep the core CFL message clear to observers and the press, and refrain from associating controversial tangential issues with it. I am trying to convince those with strong views on controversial issues not core to the CFL message to refrain from using the CFL to promote those ideas.

I will promote freedom, liberty, and the consitution when associated with the CFL, and will leave evolution, and global warming out of it (I will promote these ideas in other venues). I hope those with other strong viewpoints, like 9/11 truth will realize the wisdom of using their freedom to do the same.

jmdrake
09-05-2008, 01:05 AM
(see the remainder of my earlier post, which I subsequently edited -- sorry about that)

The purpose of inviting Ventura was not to discuss 9/11 truth.

I never said it was.

Again:

pumping gasoline + lighting cigarette = potential fire

Unveiling the CFL rally on A.J. + inviting Ventura to speak = potential 9/11 chants

You don't get mad at fires for doing what they do naturally. If you're really concerned you work to prevent the initial conditions.

Regards,

John M. Drake

ClayTrainor
09-05-2008, 01:18 AM
i never said it was.

Again:

Pumping gasoline + lighting cigarette = potential fire

unveiling the cfl rally on a.j. + inviting ventura to speak = potential 9/11 chants

you don't get mad at fires for doing what they do naturally. If you're really concerned you work to prevent the initial conditions.

Regards,

john m. Drake

Owned!!!!

tremendoustie
09-05-2008, 01:23 AM
I never said it was.

Again:

pumping gasoline + lighting cigarette = potential fire

Unveiling the CFL rally on A.J. + inviting Ventura to speak = potential 9/11 chants

You don't get mad at fires for doing what they do naturally. If you're really concerned you work to prevent the initial conditions.

Regards,

John M. Drake

I gotcha, and agree. If Paul's biggest concern was preventing the discussion of 9/11 truth, he should not have invited Ventura, or should have discussed his message with him prior to him speaking. As I noted in the earlier post, Ventura is a bit of a special case. I hope in general, though, we can agree to promote the principal ideas of the CFL, and to promote our own pet issues separately, especially when there is a danger of them hindering the movement.

Edit: I don't agree with your point regarding the announcement on AJ though -- Paul has stated that 9/11 truth is not his message, and has stated clearly that 9/11 truthers should tone it down if they want to act in his best interests. We do not need to look for 'clues', like radio appearances to know whether 9/11 truth is a major plank of the CFL -- it isn't.

Again, liberty and the constitution are big enough pills for most to swallow, the ones with which we all agree, and the major planks of the CFL. Let's start with that. The campaign is for Liberty. One can believe in 9/11 truth and not in liberty, and vice versa. It would be a shame to stunt the growth of this movement by stamping it with a highly controversial, tangential issue. Promote 9/11 truth, just not within CFL. You risk working against all of our interests. The fact is, there are many, many people who do not support 9/11 truth, who would support liberty and freedom, and ultimately a government that would be willing to investigate 9/11. If we throw them out now, we get nowhere. If we draw them in and make them feel comfortable, we get our liberty back, and you get an investigation (which I will support).

KenInMontiMN
09-05-2008, 01:43 AM
I've no problem whatsoever with people demanding a real investigation for complicity and foreknowledge. That's just prudent skepticism of the gov't line in play, considering the numbers killed and lack of desire to investigate, on the part of the White House. If many survivors and families of victims want that, then there is certainly no excuse for not proceeding. I just don't know how useful such an investigation would be in terms of final resolution of the speculation of one kind or another. If thousands of people were aware of such complicity/foreknowledge, then certainly someone would have spilled the details by now. So if there was any such thing it was known within a very tightknit and select, trusting group.

If I were executive I wouldn't worry about statute of limitations and I'd go so far as to say I'd have no problem giving complete amnesty from prosecution as well if that were mine to give, if that's what it took to get the flow started. I'd just pull the families that wanted the investigation into a closed door meeting after granting that immunity, telling them that if we learned anything solidly damning on anyone protected by amnesty or statute of limitations, they'd be the first to know. Then I'd tell them that if anything bad happened to that protected individual, the families should consider the pardon for doing that something bad to be already written and signed, just waiting on a name to fill in as long as that name is in fact a survivor or a family member of someone who died that day.

HaddEnuff
09-05-2008, 02:23 AM
Again, liberty and the constitution are big enough pills for most to swallow, the ones with which we all agree, and the major planks of the CFL. Let's start with that. The campaign is for Liberty. One can believe in 9/11 truth and not in liberty, and vice versa. It would be a shame to stunt the growth of this movement by stamping it with a highly controversial, tangential issue. Promote 9/11 truth, just not within CFL. You risk working against all of our interests. The fact is, there are many, many people who do not support 9/11 truth, who would support liberty and freedom, and ultimately a government that would be willing to investigate 9/11. If we throw them out now, we get nowhere. If we draw them in and make them feel comfortable, we get our liberty back, and you get an investigation (which I will support).
So I have a pad and paper handy. What else do we shut up about?
Federal Reserve? Very controversial. Most believe it's a government entity and should be left alone. Our stance has run off many people. Probably should shut up about it, right?
IRS? Very Very controversial. Most believe it is our duty to pay it. Our stance has run off many, many, many people. We should definitely SHUT UP about that one, right?
The New World Order? Off the controversy charts. FOR GOD'S SAKES, shut up about that one, right?
North American Union? See above.
Non-Interventionism? Seen as isolationism to most. Our stance has run off a butt load on this one. Better shut up, huh?
Patriot Act? Most believe it's for our own safety. Definitely Shut Up worthy, no?

Seriously, this is a campaign for LIBERTY.
Nothing has done more in our lifetime to threaten our liberties than the events that transpired after and because of 9/11.
IMHO getting to the truth about 9/11 is CRITICAL in preserving those liberties.









I'm HaddEnuff and I approve this message.

tremendoustie
09-05-2008, 04:05 AM
So I have a pad and paper handy. What else do we shut up about?
Federal Reserve? Very controversial. Most believe it's a government entity and should be left alone. Our stance has run off many people. Probably should shut up about it, right?

Nope, it's a main CFL plank, and Paul talks about it at every speech. In order to have liberty we will need to end the Fed.



IRS? Very Very controversial. Most believe it is our duty to pay it. Our stance has run off many, many, many people. We should definitely SHUT UP about that one, right?


Nope, it's a main CFL plank, and Paul talks about it at every speech. In order to have liberty we will need to end the IRS.



The New World Order? Off the controversy charts. FOR GOD'S SAKES, shut up about that one, right?


Yep, Paul doesn't talk about the NWO, and believing there is a NWO planned is not necessary to implement Liberty in this country.



North American Union? See above.


Yep, probably does not need to be a major topic, Paul doesn't talk about it much, if we promote American sovereignty the problem will take care of itself. It is not necessary to believe there are plans for a NAU in order to promote national sovereignty.




Non-Interventionism? Seen as isolationism to most. Our stance has run off a butt load on this one. Better shut up, huh?


Nope, it's a main CFL plank, and Paul talks about it at every speech. In order to have constitutional government we will need to end foreign interventionism.



Patriot Act? Most believe it's for our own safety. Definitely Shut Up worthy, no?


Nope, it's a main CFL plank, and Paul talks about it at every speech. In order to have constitutional government we will need to end the patriot act.



Seriously, this is a campaign for LIBERTY.
Nothing has done more in our lifetime to threaten our liberties than the events that transpired after and because of 9/11.
IMHO getting to the truth about 9/11 is CRITICAL in preserving those liberties.


No, it's not. I agree that 9/11 has led to a loss of liberties, but it is only necessary to believe that we must restore these liberties, not necessary to believe in a particular theory about 9/11. There are many revolutionaries who do not agree with these theories (including Paul) yet they are fully capable of supporting the Liberty movement. 9/11 truth is a belief about a historic fact, it has nothing to do with the actions necessary to take this country back.

These beliefs are not part of the core CFL message, and Paul has stated that he does not believe 9/11 was an inside job, and that it would help the campaign if truthers would tone it down.

Here, perhaps this will help: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/mission/

If it's not there, it's not part of the core message.

Just think: what beliefs are necessary for people to hold in order for them to be effective allies in the restoration of liberty and constitutional government? Any other added side concerns serve only to hinder the message and reduce its appeal. These ideas may be worthy, but they should be promoted outside the CFL.

BuddyRey
09-05-2008, 05:01 AM
I heard there was some kind of altercation between the asshole truthers and Tucker Carlson. They supposedly scared him off & he stopped being MC. What exactly happened?? I also heard the truthers were chanting "911 was an inside job" during the Ventura speech. Why wont the truthers just go away or shut the hell up? It seems they use this movement of small government, free markets & anti-war and turned it into a conspiracy theory camp. It really angers me that they are destroying the movement.

Man, you sure are quick to paint all 9/11 skeptics with a broad brush. I personally never lay my cards on the table about my take on the events at a Ron Paul-related event unless somebody else brings it up first and I see a general consensus (which I almost always do). I'm also very quick to point out that this is a free country and I don't hate or persecute anybody for not holding to my interpretation of reality. It'd be nice if everybody else could be as respectful of my views as I try to be of theirs. Please stop equating all 9/11 skeptics with the few rowdy folks who aren't very PR-savvy and end up drawing all of the media attention because of it.

tremendoustie
09-05-2008, 05:11 AM
Man, you sure are quick to paint all 9/11 skeptics with a broad brush. I personally never lay my cards on the table about my take on the events at a Ron Paul-related event unless somebody else brings it up first and I see a general consensus (which I almost always do). I'm also very quick to point out that this is a free country and I don't hate or persecute anybody for not holding to my interpretation of reality. It'd be nice if everybody else could be as respectful of my views as I try to be with theirs. Please stop equating all 9/11 skeptics with the few rowdy folks who aren't very PR-savvy and end up drawing all of the media attention because of it.

And THIS is a 9/11 truther who gets it (as I know many do). Acting in a way that will unnecessarily turn people off to the movement works against all of our goals. When acting as a member of the CFL, we should all stick to the most vital issues which we all agree on, and are laid out in the mission statement. Everyone's pet issues deserve to be promoted, but not as a part of the CFL. When outsiders see us, they should see people standing for Freedom, and the founding principles of our Republic.

Let's get liberty and our constitution back, all else can (and must) follow.

Anti Federalist
09-05-2008, 07:05 AM
Oh please, you're supporting the wrong person if you think Ron Paul supports 911 Truthers or that he is in any way associated with the Truther movement.

Go ahead & spew your ignorance. You're killing the Revolution with your 1st Amendment Rights. Learn when its appropriate to exercise your civil liberties. If you care anything about Ron Paul and the Revolution, you will not talk about 911 Truth.

Then why did RP invite two prominent "truthers" as guests?

Honestly, STFU will you please?

Anti Federalist
09-05-2008, 07:09 AM
So I have a pad and paper handy. What else do we shut up about?
Federal Reserve? Very controversial. Most believe it's a government entity and should be left alone. Our stance has run off many people. Probably should shut up about it, right?
IRS? Very Very controversial. Most believe it is our duty to pay it. Our stance has run off many, many, many people. We should definitely SHUT UP about that one, right?
The New World Order? Off the controversy charts. FOR GOD'S SAKES, shut up about that one, right?
North American Union? See above.
Non-Interventionism? Seen as isolationism to most. Our stance has run off a butt load on this one. Better shut up, huh?
Patriot Act? Most believe it's for our own safety. Definitely Shut Up worthy, no?

Seriously, this is a campaign for LIBERTY.
Nothing has done more in our lifetime to threaten our liberties than the events that transpired after and because of 9/11.
IMHO getting to the truth about 9/11 is CRITICAL in preserving those liberties.









I'm HaddEnuff and I approve this message.


+1

I suppose we are to quietly mumble to ourselves in the corner.

Yeah, hoo boy, that'll scare the pants off the powers that be.:rolleyes:

What a bunch of pansies. "Revolutionaries" my aching ass. :mad:

RonPaulR3VOLUTION
09-05-2008, 08:52 AM
Wow.

If anybody still has a problem with 'truthers' in this movement, then please re-read JM Drake's posts on this page. He just pwned a bunch of people.

Not at all. It is amusing no one addresses the *real* issue.

1.) Ron Paul's pro-Constitution and pro-American message creates tons of instant converts. I can easily show many examples of this.

2.) Chanting '9/11 was an inside job' disturbs people, creates unnecessary negative media, drives people away, has little to do with solving anything, and etc.

What is the logical reason for choosing method #2 which is questionable at best, and not method #1 which has been shown time and time again to work far better? Why use the INFERIOR presentation?

Answer: There is no logical reason. That's the issue. How about using what WORKS?

maqsur
09-05-2008, 09:04 AM
I think in some ways it's good Ventura brought up 9-11 (albeit not as in depth as he does on tv interviews).

I say this because 9-11 is a symbol of government f*cking things up (regardless of whether you believe they were actively involved in the attack). The Rally's purpose was to return to our roots as a country. If we can't discuss the 800 lb gorilla that symbolizes all the went wrong with this country, how can we get the country back on track.

Think about what 9-11 symbolizes: death, misery, torture, loss of haebeas corpus, secret prisons, destruction of two countries, genocide, inflation, spying, enemy combatant, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, hatred of the world, growth of Al Qaeda, growth of government, 9 trillion dollar debt, >100 dollars/barrel oil, about to bomb Iran and possible Russia, already bombing Pakistan. That's just the concise version.

And people say 9-11 should not be discussed, because "it hurts the movement." Give me a break, please! While this country goes down the tubes, and the Republic is lost, and people dying, let's just keep quiet and worry about "the movement." :rolleyes:

nobody's_hero
09-05-2008, 09:18 AM
So, to destroy any weeds on your lawn, do you trim their leaves off?

or do you kill them at their roots?

(HINT) 'Disregard for the US Constitution' is the root of the problem.

Jeremy
09-05-2008, 09:23 AM
Let me get this straight: The truthers were protesting Ron Paul and his rally. The very rally they wanted to attend.

Jamsie 567
09-05-2008, 09:32 AM
Let me get this straight: The truthers were protesting Ron Paul and his rally. The very rally they wanted to attend.

Let me set this straight for you since I was in attendance. There were a few people whereing 9/11 T-shirts at the rally. At know time were the truthers disrespetcful to our movment. NO ONE chanted 9/11 was an inside job when Jesse Ventura spoke.

People need to get over the 9/11 thing. Freedom brings us together we get all walks of life in our movement and this is just something you have to accept. If people don't accept it will just bring more lame posts like this one and draw negative attention.

SeanEdwards
09-05-2008, 09:58 AM
People need to get over the 9/11 thing. Freedom brings us together we get all walks of life in our movement and this is just something you have to accept. If people don't accept it will just bring more lame posts like this one and draw negative attention.

If someone is free to express their support for divergent views of 9/11, then isn't another person equally free to express their disagreement with those views? It seems like you are saying that the people who disagree with truthers should just be quiet and let the truthers express themselves. But don't those truther skeptics have the exact same right to self-expression as the truthers? So, according to you, I should quietly accept the presence of truthers, but truthers don't have to accept the presence of truther skeptics? Is that fair?

grizzums
09-05-2008, 10:35 AM
From my experience, I've seen truthers push several RP supporters to distance themselves from being active for this campaign and cause....they will still speak highly of RP's principles (anonymously) but mostly I have noticed a "going back into the closet" regarding their support for RP. I can separate myself from that whole nonsense so for me its not an issue but off the top of my head I can easily think of a dozen names locally here that are still supporters but you wouldn't now know it, nor would you hear it, from them. I have a feeling there are a few more like them out there and that's unfortunate.

I still believe a minority (not just the truthers) of RP supporters will continue to keep a glass ceiling (perhaps a steel one) above the head of this so-called "movement" with their conspiracy talk and quick judgments against anyone who appears to not be a "pure" libertarian.

Just being honest here....

HaddEnuff
09-05-2008, 10:55 AM
I agree that 9/11 has led to a loss of liberties, but it is only necessary to believe that we must restore these liberties, not necessary to believe in a particular theory about 9/11.
The theory about 9/11 is that this is proof positive that our government is corrupt beyond repair and therefore THE NEED for someone like Ron Paul. That's why this movement has attracted "truthers" IMHO.


9/11 truth is a belief about a historic fact, it has nothing to do with the actions necessary to take this country back.
I disagree completely since for me it was the first step. Once I realized how corrupt our government was I became receptive to the ideals of someone like Ron Paul. Otherwise I would have simply followed the status quo and voted for the lesser of two evils....again.


These beliefs are not part of the core CFL message, and Paul has stated that he does not believe 9/11 was an inside job, and that it would help the campaign if truthers would tone it down.
Again, I have to disagree. "Truthers" are for truth as well as liberty, justice and the constiution. All these things are core CFL messages.
If Ron Paul wanted to "tone it down" he wouldn't keep appearing on shows like Alex Jones and he certainly wouldn't have invited Jesse Ventura to speak at his core rally.
Ron Paul is smart enough to know that "truthers" have the CFL core message at heart.


Just think: what beliefs are necessary for people to hold in order for them to be effective allies in the restoration of liberty and constitutional government?
Truth, justice, the Constitution, Liberty. These are all beliefs within the "truth movement." And I think Ron Paul is aware of that.


Any other added side concerns serve only to hinder the message and reduce its appeal. These ideas may be worthy, but they should be promoted outside the CFL.
In my opinion it is the dumbed-down (ironically there are many in the CFL) that will do far more harm than any "truther."
If you think that silencing the "truthers" is somehow going to endear the CFL even the slightest bit to the mainstream media, then you fall into that category.

Peace&Freedom
09-05-2008, 11:39 AM
Not at all. It is amusing no one addresses the *real* issue.

1.) Ron Paul's pro-Constitution and pro-American message creates tons of instant converts. I can easily show many examples of this.

2.) Chanting '9/11 was an inside job' disturbs people, creates unnecessary negative media, drives people away, has little to do with solving anything, and etc.

What is the logical reason for choosing method #2 which is questionable at best, and not method #1 which has been shown time and time again to work far better? Why use the INFERIOR presentation?

Answer: There is no logical reason. That's the issue. How about using what WORKS?

It is amusing you ignore the people (and voters) who have addressed your 'real' issue.

1.) Paul's pro-Constitution, Misean economic message has been going out for the 30 years he has been in Congress. It did NOT gain him many adherents beyond a remnant, including during his last Presidential run in '88. He did not become the national phenomenon he is now UNTIL he ran as a champion of both Libertarian AND Patriot movement issues (of which 9-11 truth is one) in this past year's Presidential run, and UNTIL he got his early donation money from truthers. He actually got into the most trouble NOT over 9-11, but over the past newsletters put out in his name by his Misean colleagues.

2.) Let's be emphatically clear. Paul distanced himself from 9-11 issues, following which he won ZERO primaries, and the media STILL blacked him out. WE TRIED IT YOUR WAY, AND IT DID NOT WORK. As we move forward as a movement, we will move forward with ALL the issues of major concern to it, period. The proven failure of the "no 9-11" approach DOES NOT give its adherents any authority to dictate it be excluded any longer.

adara7537
09-05-2008, 12:02 PM
All I have to say is that perhaps you should be speaking to Mr. Ventura who brought up 9/11 in the first place.

You guys have seriously got to get over this.

People need to accept people and different views. You don't have to agree with them. People need to stop holding others up to their standards. And in this case, what's worse, is you are holding these people up to the standards of the sheeple. I mean seriously, we have to ostracize the truthers because they hurt the movement because the morons out there are scared of them? What the hell is wrong with someone questioning something until they get an answer that makes sense to them?

I think it would be a much better world if people questioned more often what's going on. If they did Paul would have won. As long as the truthers or any other fringe group isn't actually physically hurting anyone then who cares.

I am as yet unaware of anything to be "scared" of that they have done. To my knowledge they haven't engaged in any acts of violence-so what exactly would there be to be scared of?

It's ridiculous. Oh and by the way I am not a truther. Well that is to say, I don't march or wear shirts or chant or anything- but I think it would be stupid to say I think the gov. is telling us the truth about 9/11.

richardfortherepublic
09-05-2008, 12:02 PM
It is amusing you ignore the people (and voters) who have addressed your 'real' issue.

1.) Paul's pro-Constitution, Misean economic message has been going out for the 30 years he has been in Congress. It did NOT gain him many adherents beyond a remnant, including during his last Presidential run in '88. He did not become the national phenomenon he is now UNTIL he ran as a champion of both Libertarian AND Patriot movement issues (of which 9-11 truth is one) in this past year's Presidential run, and UNTIL he got his early donation money from truthers. He actually got into the most trouble NOT over 9-11, but over the past newsletters put out in his name by his Misean colleagues.

2.) Let's be emphatically clear. Paul distanced himself from 9-11 issues, following which he won ZERO primaries, and the media STILL blacked him out. WE TRIED IT YOUR WAY, AND IT DID NOT WORK. As we move forward as a movement, we will move forward with ALL the issues of major concern to it, period. The proven failure of the "no 9-11" approach DOES NOT give its adherents any authority to dictate it be excluded any longer.

Why don't we just hire Jason fucking Bermus and Alex Jones to run his campaign???

OO! I know, Art Bell can be his press secretary! George Noory for VP!

The majority of the truth movement is selfish, immature, and uneducated of the history of the US. Their power is a gang mentality, if one on one questioning doesn't work, they have 3 more people come over so they can start yelling questions at you, and when your mind can't process it, you are a 'tyrant' 'sheeple' or a 'fucking piece of shit'

This is not a group I want to be associated with, Ron Paul doesn't want to be, and America doesn't want to be. The movement is big enough to be self sufficent, and We are Change does not need Ron Paul's help to spread the 9/11 message.

The people that Ron Paul is trying to convert are average American conservatives who have a strong sense of Patriotism, and they believe that Osama needs to pay his dues.

If Ron Paul thought 9/11 was an inside job, why would he vote to send troops to Afghanistan? Why would he continue to state that the battle in Afghanistan is justified?

Where is the logic here?!?!?!??!

dannno
09-05-2008, 12:32 PM
Not at all. It is amusing no one addresses the *real* issue.

1.) Ron Paul's pro-Constitution and pro-American message creates tons of instant converts. I can easily show many examples of this.

2.) Chanting '9/11 was an inside job' disturbs people, creates unnecessary negative media, drives people away, has little to do with solving anything, and etc.

What is the logical reason for choosing method #2 which is questionable at best, and not method #1 which has been shown time and time again to work far better? Why use the INFERIOR presentation?

Answer: There is no logical reason. That's the issue. How about using what WORKS?

Because many people who have heard that argument have answered the call. On the other hand, most people don't give a rats ass about the constitution because they don't know WHY it is there. It is there to prevent things like the government gaining enough power to attack it's own people and control the media monopoly into making them believe it was somebody else in order to start perpetual war, which is being funded by an illegal banking institution. It's a great example of why Ron Paul is right.

When the masses begin to learn the truth, they will want an answer. Libertarianism and the constitution provide that answer.

dannno
09-05-2008, 12:33 PM
Why don't we just hire Jason fucking Bermus and Alex Jones to run his campaign???

OO! I know, Art Bell can be his press secretary! George Noory for VP!

The majority of the truth movement is selfish, immature, and uneducated of the history of the US. Their power is a gang mentality, if one on one questioning doesn't work, they have 3 more people come over so they can start yelling questions at you, and when your mind can't process it, you are a 'tyrant' 'sheeple' or a 'fucking piece of shit'

This is not a group I want to be associated with, Ron Paul doesn't want to be, and America doesn't want to be. The movement is big enough to be self sufficent, and We are Change does not need Ron Paul's help to spread the 9/11 message.

The people that Ron Paul is trying to convert are average American conservatives who have a strong sense of Patriotism, and they believe that Osama needs to pay his dues.

If Ron Paul thought 9/11 was an inside job, why would he vote to send troops to Afghanistan? Why would he continue to state that the battle in Afghanistan is justified?

Where is the logic here?!?!?!??!


Stop trying to speak for Ron Paul, you are really bad at it.

Your view of 9/11 truth also needs a serious overhaul.

rockandrollsouls
09-05-2008, 12:38 PM
The truthers make up most of the movement. I know several state coordinators who are truthers. A large majority of my friends from meetup are truthers. I know several meetup organizers and assistant organizers that are truthers. Many of these truthers have advanced degrees and are very intelligent, successful people.


I am not a truther myself. I am more of a fence sitter. I enjoy debating these people about their 9/11 beliefs. I welcome them to the movement, and I don't understand why people have such a huge problem with them.

You're hangin out with the wrong people, then. The majority of the movement that I've noticed are freedom lovers.

The truthers are morons. I'm willing to bet you weren't standing on the ground when it happened....you're just too busy viewing blurry youtube footage and pulling ridiculous garbage out of pixelated graphics in them.

The movement is about FREEDOM. It never was a 9/11 truth movement and do NOT try to take that away from those of us fighting for true freedom.

dannno
09-05-2008, 12:41 PM
You're hangin out with the wrong people, then. The majority of the movement that I've noticed are freedom lovers.

The majority of freedom lovers I have met have an open enough mind to question 9/11.




The truthers are morons. I'm willing to bet you weren't standing on the ground when it happened....you're just too busy viewing blurry youtube footage and pulling ridiculous garbage out of pixelated graphics in them.

The movement is about FREEDOM. It never was a 9/11 truth movement and do NOT try to take that away from those of us fighting for true freedom.

Um, you don't seem to get it. At all.

richardfortherepublic
09-05-2008, 12:59 PM
Stop trying to speak for Ron Paul, you are really bad at it.

Your view of 9/11 truth also needs a serious overhaul.

I just say what he says, and the 9/11 truth needs a serious overhaul of how they communicate with potential members....

I never told any of these We Are Change kids I was a member, and I asked them rhetorical questions, but it just got them fuming angry when I schooled them on history.

This is not a unique experience. Which is sad. I resigned from We Are Change because I am fed up with how they get their message out.

Go watch Fabled Enemies, They have a group of people yelling questions at this poor guy that agrees with them. This is a typical We Are Change tactic. Its disturbing and confusing to a lot of people.

RonPaulR3VOLUTION
09-05-2008, 01:16 PM
It is amusing you ignore the people (and voters) who have addressed your 'real' issue.

This statement does nothing to address the real issue at all. Take 5 people and ask them if they would rather hear about the Constitution or 9/11 being an inside job. Case closed.



1.) Paul's pro-Constitution, Misean economic message has been going out for the 30 years he has been in Congress. It did NOT gain him many adherents beyond a remnant, including during his last Presidential run in '88.


Almost no one was (or still is) aware of him or these ideas. That he has become more popular has *nothing* to do with 9/11 Truth itself. Ron Paul did not suddenly become more popular by going around screaming, "9/11 was an inside job!!!!"



He did not become the national phenomenon he is now UNTIL he ran as a champion of both Libertarian AND Patriot movement issues


Funny that here you say he became a "national phenomenon" then later say "IT DID NOT WORK." Becoming a "national phenomenon" is a pretty big success, especially when most people have not yet heard about Ron Paul nor his ideas.



(of which 9-11 truth is one)


Ron Paul has never used 9/11 Truth itself to gain in popularity. In fact, he has repeatedly said he does not endorse nor support it.



in this past year's Presidential run, and UNTIL he got his early donation money from truthers. He actually got into the most trouble NOT over 9-11, but over the past newsletters put out in his name by his Misean colleagues.


I never said the truthers as PEOPLE did not assist. He became popular through support of the Constitution, not 9/11 Truth which he has opposed numerous times. Because people who are truthers supported him doesn't mean the message of 9/11 Truth supported him. Racists have donated to him and supported him as well -- does that mean Ron Paul is a racist, is a part of that movement, and that racism is a reason for his success?



2.) Let's be emphatically clear. Paul distanced himself from 9-11 issues, following which he won ZERO primaries, and the media STILL blacked him out.


I never said 9/11 Truth was wholly responsible, but it certainly doesn't help. You think if he had screamed "9/11 was an inside job" we would have WON the primaries instead? Your point is pointless.



WE TRIED IT YOUR WAY, AND IT DID NOT WORK.


Completely wrong here. It accomplished a lot.

"I’ll tell you one thing," Ron Paul added. "When I’m back in D.C., I get a lot of recognition from members of Congress who want my endorsement and want my support, to help out, because they are in tight races and they know the grassroots Republicans are interested in what I’m saying."



As we move forward as a movement, we will move forward with ALL the issues of major concern to it, period. The proven failure of the "no 9-11" approach DOES NOT give its adherents any authority to dictate it be excluded any longer.

1. There wasn't a 'failure'.
2. He would have done much much much worse if he had run around screaming "9/11 as an inside job"

This is what you ignore/avoid. It as though you are implying not yelling '9/11 was an inside job' HINDERED his campaign. If that is your implication, you are just dead wrong. He would be less known, there would be less people who know about the Constitution, and et cetera.

Ron Paul not becoming President doesn't suddenly turn the bad plan of "Inside Job" into a good one. That's like saying, "OMG, I ate healthy food for two weeks and I'm not a champion weight lifter!! Time to go back to eating junk food!!!"

By the way, 9/11 Truth has been 'mainstream' a lot longer than Ron Paul, and 9/11 Truth has done much worse at gaining support. So, there goes that theory. Even Alex Jones, in a radio interview with Ron Paul, said, "You are much bigger than I am." Not those exact words, and I don't feel like searching now.

You've completely failed at addressing my point that more people are receptive to hearing about the Constitution than "9/11 was an inside job." Let me know when you are ready to show that the opposite is true. Anyone can take a camera and question 10 random people and disprove your view.

Lastly, if 9/11 Truth is such a better plan, and so much bigger, why are you here instead of at the 911insidejobforums.com site? Certainly you wouldn't want to spend your time at the site with a bad plan over your site with the much better plan? Why aren't you running as a 9/11 Truth candidate or spending your time supporting one? The answers to these questions are self evident. 9/11 Truth on its own would be a big flop in politics so people try to latch onto something else much more successful than their own movement and selfishly leech off of it. Of course, it's unethical, but such people are willing to throw away principle, if it means some personal gain for themselves. Reminds me of a few other movements.

You have not made the case whatsoever that we should switch to an inferior presentation when a much superior one is available.

HaddEnuff
09-05-2008, 01:56 PM
The majority of the truth movement is selfish, immature, and uneducated of the history of the US.
the majority of AMERICANS are selfish, immature and undeducated on the history of the U.S.
Isn't that what we're trying to work together to change?


Their power is a gang mentality
I disagree with some people's tactics as well but that doesn't change my beliefs.
1+1=2 regardles of how it's presented.


The people that Ron Paul is trying to convert are average American conservatives who have a strong sense of Patriotism, and they believe that Osama needs to pay his dues.
Don't you think Osama should be charged with the crime before he's made to pay his dues?

Jeremy
09-05-2008, 01:56 PM
Let me set this straight for you since I was in attendance. There were a few people whereing 9/11 T-shirts at the rally. At know time were the truthers disrespetcful to our movment. NO ONE chanted 9/11 was an inside job when Jesse Ventura spoke.

People need to get over the 9/11 thing. Freedom brings us together we get all walks of life in our movement and this is just something you have to accept. If people don't accept it will just bring more lame posts like this one and draw negative attention.
This is a lie. We heard them loud and clear. Maybe you weren't sitting near them, but they were protesting and yelling "911 was an inside job" while shaking their fists and scaring away all the potential liberty supporters.

rockandrollsouls
09-05-2008, 02:12 PM
This is a lie. We heard them loud and clear. Maybe you weren't sitting near them, but they were protesting and yelling "911 was an inside job" while shaking their fists and scaring away all the potential liberty supporters.

I, as well as many people here, am here for freedom....not pushing 9/11 conspiracies by trying to use, and yes they are trying to, Ron's message as a vehicle.

Ron has stated numerous times he does not endorse the truthers point of view. Putting the weight of their conspiracy on Ron's shoulders is wrong, immoral, and sickening. It's inexcusable. A man steps up to fight for your rights and all these people can think about it "We'll use Ron to push 911 conspiracies."

Ron doesn't endorse it, keep it away from his rallies and events, and stop getting in the way of OUR effort to restore the republic.

You have an issue with the way 9/11 investigations were conducted? Petition the government and take your legal recourse. But, don't ever, EVER try to push it through with the Doctor's name tagged to it. That's what nearly ALL of you truthers are doing and it's AWFUL.

HaddEnuff
09-05-2008, 02:14 PM
This is a lie. We heard them loud and clear. Maybe you weren't sitting near them, but they were protesting and yelling "911 was an inside job" while shaking their fists and scaring away all the potential liberty supporters.
If uncomfortable moments are going to break up this movement, we have no chance.

RockEnds
09-05-2008, 02:15 PM
This is a lie. We heard them loud and clear. Maybe you weren't sitting near them, but they were protesting and yelling "911 was an inside job" while shaking their fists and scaring away all the potential liberty supporters.

The only time I saw anything close to people being scared was when the entire crowd was yelling, "End the Fed". Some of the folks in the press box looked just a little uncomfortable. :eek:

HaddEnuff
09-05-2008, 02:23 PM
You have an issue with the way 9/11 investigations were conducted? Petition the government and take your legal recourse. But, don't ever, EVER try to push it through with the Doctor's name tagged to it. That's what nearly ALL of you truthers are doing and it's AWFUL.
As far as I've seen, YOU are the only one doing that.
To say "truthers" are using Ron Paul to "push through" their movement is beyond absurd.

rockandrollsouls
09-05-2008, 02:58 PM
As far as I've seen, YOU are the only one doing that.
To say "truthers" are using Ron Paul to "push through" their movement is beyond absurd.

No it's not, because you guys are. If you have an issue take it up with the government....9/11 truth has never been plank on the platform we supported and Ron isn't your vehicle for that message.

reduen
09-05-2008, 03:48 PM
I will say this once again and for the very last time. (In my opinion..)

"Truthers" have got to be the biggest cowards on the face of this earth.

You people really believe that our own government intentionally killed thousands of its own innocent citizens and all you cowards can do is stand around and yell about it?

Ron Paul does not believe that our government perpetrated 9/11! He has said this time and time again!!

Not only are you people insane cowards but you are driving sane people away from this movement!

I did not go to the rally specifically because I do not want to be associated with you.

I can handle those who just want to make pot leagle so they can get stoned, even Dr. Paul thinks pot should be leagle but you people take the cake.....:rolleyes:

SeanEdwards
09-05-2008, 03:52 PM
I will say this once again and for the very last time. (In my opinion..)

"Truthers" have got to be the biggest cowards on the face of this earth.

You people really believe that our own government intentionally killed thousands of its own innocent citizens and all you cowards can do is stand around and yell about it?

I have the same reaction. If I was a "true-believer" in the Alex Jones version of reality, I think I'd feel obligated to take up arms against the government, not simply shout slogans in a free-speech zone.

dannno
09-05-2008, 04:01 PM
"We'll use Ron to push 911 conspiracies."

You really think that, don't you?

:(

rockandrollsouls
09-05-2008, 04:06 PM
You really think that, don't you?

:(

That's what you guys do. Plenty of other forms of action you can take if you truly believe it, but instead you place an unnecessary burden on the Doctor's shoulders.

Truthers are cowards and hypocrites for the reasons stated above, but even more so because they hide behind a man of principle and integrity that's far too nice to say "Get the F off me!"

dannno
09-05-2008, 04:13 PM
That's what you guys do. Plenty of other forms of action you can take if you truly believe it, but instead you place an unnecessary burden on the Doctor's shoulders.

Truthers are cowards and hypocrites for the reasons stated above, but even more so because they hide behind a man of principle and integrity that's far too nice to say "Get the F off me!"

I completely disagree with your reasoning. Ron could have easily distanced himself from 9/11 truthers without saying "Get the F off me". Instead he goes on their shows, welcomes them into the movement to promote liberty and and even invited 2 to speak at the CFL rally. You are projecting your own feelings about truthers onto Ron Paul, and that is wrong.




....what other forms of "action" would you recommend, btw?

richardfortherepublic
09-05-2008, 04:22 PM
....what other forms of "action" would you recommend, btw?

Joining We Are Change and doing what you want to get your message out without associating it with Ron Paul.

SeanEdwards
09-05-2008, 04:23 PM
I completely disagree with your reasoning. Ron could have easily distanced himself from 9/11 truthers without saying "Get the F off me". Instead he goes on their shows, welcomes them into the movement to promote liberty and and even invited 2 to speak at the CFL rally. You are projecting your own feelings about truthers onto Ron Paul, and that is wrong.



Paul also appears on Fox news and appeals to Sean Hannity's viewers to join the movement to promote liberty. That doesn't make him a fascist, and talking to Alex Jones doesn't make him a truther either.

dannno
09-05-2008, 04:27 PM
Paul also appears on Fox news and appeals to Sean Hannity's viewers to join the movement to promote liberty. That doesn't make him a fascist, and talking to Alex Jones doesn't make him a truther either.

I never said he was a truther (in this thread ;)), I only said he welcomes them into the movement.

Fox is a mainstream news entity. Do you think McCain or Obama would appear on Alex Jones' show? Why would they if it is such a small, specialized audience? Ron Paul goes on their because he thinks he will be able to reach his supporters that way. He goes onto Fox News so that he can be heard within by the mainstream public. They are completely different types of appearances with completely different goals.


And thanks for ignoring the second part.

richardfortherepublic
09-05-2008, 04:39 PM
I never said he was a truther (in this thread ;)), I only said he welcomes them into the movement.

Fox is a mainstream news entity. Do you think McCain or Obama would appear on Alex Jones' show? Why would they if it is such a small, specialized audience? Ron Paul goes on their because he thinks he will be able to reach his supporters that way. He goes onto Fox News so that he can be heard within by the mainstream public. They are completely different types of appearances with completely different goals.


And thanks for ignoring the second part.

Alex Jones has 60 radio stations, and thousands of listeners online... There are probably more listeners on Alex Jones then there are views of handy comb. By no means is it a 'small' audience.

Not all of them are Paul supporters FYI. But the large majority is.

I'm sure Ron would go on any show that would give him the time of day... but just because he goes on a show, it does not limit him to the opinion of the shows host.

brandon
09-05-2008, 04:39 PM
Is their anything worthwhile to read in this thread between pages 5 and 16?

dannno
09-05-2008, 04:43 PM
Did anybody listen to Tucker Carlson's speech? Isn't that who this thread is about?

He is the one who said that Ron Paul is perfectly fine with other people in the movement having differing views from his as long as they are liberty-minded. He is the one that said to expect to hear differing views from your own during the rally. Can't you see how much of a hypocrite he is?

9/11 being an inside job has everything to do with liberty, and Ron Paul knows that is how we see it. Why can't some of you people see that? Why can't you leave truthers the fuck alone if you are going to choose ignore the overwhelming evidence yourself? Nobody is going around saying that Ron Paul says he believes 9/11 was an inside job, and that is the only thing you should be concerned with.

The actions of other individuals are their own business. It's your right to complain, but consider there are about 1,000 threads on this forum complaining about truthers assocating themselves with Ron Paul for every piece of evidence we have of truthers associating themselves with Ron Paul. Shut the fuck up already, it's getting tiring.

You need to sit back and think for a moment what it would be like to have the knowledge that 9/11 was an inside job. You guys are asking us to sit back and shut up. You obviously have no clue what it means to have this information, so try and imagine it so that you can see how important this is.. not to us as individuals, but to EVERYONE as individuals. Stop calling us selfish, we are trying to prevent future government sponsored terrorist attacks against other people. That isn't selfish, get a clue.

dannno
09-05-2008, 04:47 PM
Alex Jones has 60 radio stations, and thousands of listeners online... There are probably more listeners on Alex Jones then there are views of handy comb. By no means is it a 'small' audience.

Not all of them are Paul supporters FYI. But the large majority is.

I'm sure Ron would go on any show that would give him the time of day... but just because he goes on a show, it does not limit him to the opinion of the shows host.

Alex Jones does not have an audience anywhere near that of mainstream television.

You are also still missing the point. If he was that interested in keeping truthers out of his campaign, he wouldn't have gone on a fucking truther show WEEK AFTER WEEK. He was on almost every week leading up to Super Tuesday.

The argument that he went on Fox News even though he doesn't agree with them is not a valid argument, because they are a portal to a mainstream audience. Alex Jones is not a mainstream audience, it is focussed.

Jamsie 567
09-05-2008, 04:47 PM
This is a lie. We heard them loud and clear. Maybe you weren't sitting near them, but they were protesting and yelling "911 was an inside job" while shaking their fists and scaring away all the potential liberty supporters.

Actually it's not a lie it's the truth to me and I take my own word over yours. If you are saying you heard them. Then you are so far the only person I have heard from that attended who has said this. Which leads me to the conclusion it was a very insignifcant group of people. Not even worth mentioning in my opinion.

dannno
09-05-2008, 04:50 PM
Actually it's not a lie it's the truth to me and I take my own word over yours. If you are saying you heard them. Then you are so far the only person I have heard from that attended who has said this. Which leads me to the conclusion it was a very insignifcant group of people. Not even worth mentioning in my opinion.

http://www.inkycircus.com/jargon/images/mountain.jpghttp://k53.pbase.com/g3/18/485418/2/56591954.mountainoutofamolehill1Large.jpg

dannno
09-05-2008, 04:52 PM
Is their anything worthwhile to read in this thread between pages 5 and 16?

11 & first couple posts on 12

SeanEdwards
09-05-2008, 05:00 PM
It's your right to complain,


Exactly. So what is the problem? We've got truthers, and we've got truther-skeptics. Now what?

dannno
09-05-2008, 05:01 PM
Exactly. So what is the problem? We've got truthers, and we've got truther-skeptics. Now what?

So stop being fucking fascists. I'm not telling you what to do.

Ron Paul doesn't want to tell me what to do, and it's his movement so :p

He invited people with my beliefs to speak at HIS rally and they spoke about said beliefs.

I think you should be going out telling people about 9/11 truth, but us truthers don't make 50 threads about the non-truthers not doing their duty every day, though we may make 50 threads containing evidence that will show you that you should.

Scribbler de Stebbing
09-05-2008, 05:39 PM
None of us can force others to do or not do something.

All I can say is that they're trying to tie the Truthers to the Ron Paul movement here in Minnesota following the convention, and we're taking some big hits in the Republican Party for it.

All I can ask is that you not hold a Ron Paul sign with your Truth signs. Please.

Of course Ventura didn't help us with that either.

Hey, at least y'all aren't out there damaging property.

SeanEdwards
09-05-2008, 05:50 PM
I'm not telling you what to do.



Really? Then why do you say the following in the very same post?



I think you should be going out telling people about 9/11 truth, but us truthers don't make 50 threads about the non-truthers not doing their duty every day, though we may make 50 threads containing evidence that will show you that you should.

All your posts have been about getting truther-skeptics to stop bitching, and you don't seem to recognize the irony that their freedom to bitch is exactly the same as your freedom to push a 9/11 agenda.

Pot meet kettle for a fucktard orgy. :rolleyes:

dannno
09-05-2008, 06:09 PM
Really? Then why do you say the following in the very same post?

Sean, read the post again, I was making a point. That was completely 100% on purpose. I'm NOT making several threads a day telling you what to do, whereas truthers get a bunch of threads popping up saying that they are stupid and need to stop promoting 9/11 truth. Who are you to tell me to stop promoting 9/11 truth?

I made it clear what I'd like you to do, but then stated that I am not whining all day that you aren't doing it, whereas the anti-truthers have whined about us for months day in and day out, saying they are doing it in the name of Ron Paul. Clearly, Ron Paul has no problem with truthers in his movement and encourages all to join up. Truthers are not going to keep quiet about 9/11 truth, that is a ridiculous notion. There have not been enough instances of people proclaiming 9/11 truth using Ron Paul's NAME, although they may do it at a Ron Paul/liberty related EVENT there are many instances when this is perfectly acceptable.

There are anti-truther threads all the time, aimed at telling truthers to stop telling the truth. Truthers create truther threads to present evidence and defend themselves from your tyrrany.

You can make all the posts you want, I'm just trying to get you to hear my side so maybe you will understand why we are doing what we are doing. Making a mountain out of a mole hill only divides the movement.

jmdrake
09-05-2008, 07:18 PM
Edit: I don't agree with your point regarding the announcement on AJ though -- Paul has stated that 9/11 truth is not his message, and has stated clearly that 9/11 truthers should tone it down if they want to act in his best interests. We do not need to look for 'clues', like radio appearances to know whether 9/11 truth is a major plank of the CFL -- it isn't.


You obviously don't understand my point so I'll make it again. I didn't say that 9/11 was a "major plank on the CFL". I said that the appearance on the Alex Jones show for the purpose of unveiling the CFL rally had the obvious (and I believe desired effect) of encouraging truthers to come. (Note: It was Jesse Benton that used the AJ show to make the announcement. But you get the point.)



Again, liberty and the constitution are big enough pills for most to swallow, the ones with which we all agree, and the major planks of the CFL.

Again that's not the point. But if you want to talk about "Ron Paul planks" here's another one for you. On the AJ show Ron Paul recently said he "wasn't surprised" by the allegations that Dick Cheney was willing to kill Americans and blame it on Iran to start a war with Iran. Do you think that's "easy to swallow"?

Here's the deal. It may be tough to comprehend, but Ron Paul is no longer running for president. And frankly 2008 is pretty much a done deal. Whether or not Jesse Ventura mentioned 9/11 or some truthers said whatever has little to no bearing on 2008. It's now time to look to 2010 and 2012. There is a better than odd chance that Jesse Ventura will be a major player in 2012. Do you think he'll be able to "hide" his 9/11 connections? Of course not. The only shot is to move the consciousness of the American people so that it's more acceptable. At least 30% of the population already question 9/11 and the numbers are growing. Really, I haven't seen a list of "CFL planks" and it's not about "planks" anyway.

Regards,

John M. Drake

jmdrake
09-05-2008, 07:36 PM
Why don't we just hire Jason fucking Bermus and Alex Jones to run his campaign???

OO! I know, Art Bell can be his press secretary! George Noory for VP!

The majority of the truth movement is selfish, immature, and uneducated of the history of the US. Their power is a gang mentality, if one on one questioning doesn't work, they have 3 more people come over so they can start yelling questions at you, and when your mind can't process it, you are a 'tyrant' 'sheeple' or a 'fucking piece of shit'

This is not a group I want to be associated with, Ron Paul doesn't want to be, and America doesn't want to be. The movement is big enough to be self sufficent, and We are Change does not need Ron Paul's help to spread the 9/11 message.

The people that Ron Paul is trying to convert are average American conservatives who have a strong sense of Patriotism, and they believe that Osama needs to pay his dues.

If Ron Paul thought 9/11 was an inside job, why would he vote to send troops to Afghanistan? Why would he continue to state that the battle in Afghanistan is justified?

Where is the logic here?!?!?!??!

A) Ron Paul said he regretted voting to send troops to Afghanistan.
B) Thinking the government may have been involved in 9/11 and that AQ was involved aren't mutually exclusive ideas.

I'll expound on B a bit. 9/11 truth broadly splits into LIHOP and MIHOP. LIHOP (let it happen on purpose) means you think the government had enough intel to stop 9/11 but choose not to prevent it because it wanted to go to war with Iraq. Believing that someone in the government might have even "run interference" for Al Qaeda (like staging the war games conveniently on 9/11 that drew crucial air defenses away from the attack zone and confused pilots by inserting "ghost" images into their radar) also falls under LIHOP.

As far as your assertion that Ron Paul "doesn't want to be associated with 9/11 truth" then why the HELL did he invite Jesse Ventura to speak? I mean really. That would have to be the stupidest move possible for someone concerned about being associated with 9/11 truth. And I don't think Ron Paul is stupid. Maybe you do. Really, I finally watched the Ventura clip on youtube. YOU CAN BARELY HERE THE "9/11 was an inside job" CHANT! But there were MASSIVELY LOUD CHEERS when Ventura raised he questions about Bin Laden not being charged for 9/11 and 9/11 not being mentioned on his FBI wanted poster. Furthermore when CNN interviewed Dr. Paul the following day they never even mentioned 9/11 or Ventura's speech. The sky is NOT falling chicken little.

Regards,

John M. Drake

kjdaugirdas
09-05-2008, 10:52 PM
Which, I am, but now I am silent about 9/11. In protest of the truthers.

I've never met a truther who would have a normal discussion with me.. or they gang up on you and have 4 of their friends screaming questions at you. Hell, they do it several times in 'Fabled Enemies' and they looks like morons.

This is what destroys the message of Ron Paul. A lot of people do not want to be associated to truthers.

Richardfortherepublic, the post I am responding to is but one of your many posts, flooding this thread. And they all say exactly the same thing, and in such consistent, repetitive language, that I am almost tempted to respond: "You are a government anti-Truth troll." And a rather aggressive one at that. Are you? If so, leave this board.

Ron Paul is about free exchange of ideas. I highly doubt, if you asked him, that he would agree with you that the "truthers" should be chased out of RonPaulForums.com. So drop all the "you're making the movement look bad" crap.

VoteForRonPaul
09-05-2008, 11:29 PM
Richardfortherepublic, the post I am responding to is but one of your many posts, flooding this thread. And they all say exactly the same thing, and in such consistent, repetitive language,......
Good observation!

That was exactly what I told him in another thread.

Here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1652524&postcount=75

I still stand by my word though, repeat as much as you want, as long as you do not trash people just because they disagree with you.

Leadman584
09-05-2008, 11:53 PM
Just my opinion, and everyone has one.

I agree with Dr. Paul and the assertions of Jesse Ventura. There are way too many unanswered questions concerning the events of 9/11. A further investigation into the matter is warranted. America spent over $40M to investigate Clinton lying about a BJ. Only $15M was spent investigating the most disastrous attack on America in the modern era. Multiple crimes scenes were compromised in connection with these events. Clinton was stupid enough to testify under oath, the Bushies didn't make the same mistake.

Just finished listening to the audiobook "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". I knew it was bad, just never imagined it could be that bad.

They use the terms "Truther", and "Islamofascist", to scare the lemmings, sheep, whatever.

We must look to the Founders for guidance, or suffer the consequences.

Max Stirner
09-06-2008, 12:27 AM
If it's difficult for any 9/11 conspiracy believer to see how conflating Ron Paul and anyone's particular ideas about 9/11 (the government used beam weapons, the planes were remotely controlled, the planes didn't exist and were coverups for a controlled demolition, etc, etc) then you're very disconnected from reality.

tremendoustie
09-06-2008, 01:23 AM
You obviously don't understand my point so I'll make it again. I didn't say that 9/11 was a "major plank on the CFL". I said that the appearance on the Alex Jones show for the purpose of unveiling the CFL rally had the obvious (and I believe desired effect) of encouraging truthers to come. (Note: It was Jesse Benton that used the AJ show to make the announcement. But you get the point.)

I agree that truthers are absolutely welcome, as is anyone who will stand up in support of liberty! But they should not use CFL events or their association with Ron Paul to promote 9/11 truth. They should promote the purposes of the CFL at CFL events, and 9/11 truth personally, or at 9/11 events. It's not rocket science, as I pointed out, I don't try to use CFL events to promote each of my various beliefs, because it would serve as a distraction.




Again that's not the point. But if you want to talk about "Ron Paul planks" here's another one for you. On the AJ show Ron Paul recently said he "wasn't surprised" by the allegations that Dick Cheney was willing to kill Americans and blame it on Iran to start a war with Iran. Do you think that's "easy to swallow"?


Firstly, "wasn't suprised" is a pretty weak statement. More importantly, even say he believed it was true, does Paul, when holding rallies and trying to appeal to the masses, shout from the podium, "Cheney may be willing to kill Americans!!". Of course not, because that would strongly detract from the message, and is irrelevant to restoring liberty. I bet even Paul may have beliefs that he chooses not to make the main focus, because they would serve as a distraction and serve to divide people or drive them away. Use your brain. Even if 9/11 truth is the most important thing in the whole universe, shouting it at rallies hurts your cause as much as the CFL. A free government will be willing to conduct a real investigation!!! So your best course of action even for the purposes of 9/11 truth is to restore our liberties and give CFL the best possible chance to succeed. And if you don't think the news outlets and the republican party use every chance they get to try to push the CFL to the fringe by associating it with "truthers", you've got your head in the sand. Forget whether it's true or not, we can have that discussion some other time -- most people are turned off by it.



Here's the deal. It may be tough to comprehend, but Ron Paul is no longer running for president. And frankly 2008 is pretty much a done deal. Whether or not Jesse Ventura mentioned 9/11 or some truthers said whatever has little to no bearing on 2008. It's now time to look to 2010 and 2012. There is a better than odd chance that Jesse Ventura will be a major player in 2012. Do you think he'll be able to "hide" his 9/11 connections? Of course not. The only shot is to move the consciousness of the American people so that it's more acceptable. At least 30% of the population already question 9/11 and the numbers are growing. Really, I haven't seen a list of "CFL planks" and it's not about "planks" anyway.

Regards,

John M. Drake

I refer you again to http://www.campaignforliberty.com/mission/
Nowhere does it mention 9/11 truth. Ergo, this is not the mission of the CFL.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reason: The position of the Student Scholars is that 9/11 was executed by the U.S. government. Do you agree or disagree with that?

Paul: I'd say there's no evidence of that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Asked about whether the Troofers should abandon the "9-11 was an inside job" rhetoric, Paul replies:

"Well, it doesn't do me any good, so if they care about me they should."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS MOVEMENT IS NOT ABOUT 9/11 TRUTH!!! Can't you get it? I support your promotion of ideas you believe to be true, but you have no right to try to co-opt the CFL and make it about your personal beliefs. If the ideas of 9/11 truth are so popular, they will succeed on their own!! Start 9/11 truth rallies -- hold events!! If 30% of the country agrees with you it will take off like wildfire.

If, however, these ideas are not so popular as you imagine, at least they will fail on their own, instead of bringing down the last best chance for liberty for all of us! Are you really willing to risk our own liberty and consitutional government (and your chance at a real investigation) in order to have one more platform from which to shout rhetoric?

I am proud to stand alongside truthers and promote freedom and the constitution. It is vital, however, that they realize that the CFL is a tool for freedom and the constitution, not a tool for 9/11 truth promotion. These efforts should be made independently, otherwise we risk the success of both efforts -- if 9/11 truth is successfully associated with the CFL, those who do not believe in 9/11 truth will not feel comfortable joining -- and we cannot succeed without them. We must all put aside our differences, and focus on the fight for liberty and the constitution when fighting in the CFL, as that is its purpose.

Anti Federalist
09-06-2008, 04:46 AM
I have the same reaction. If I was a "true-believer" in the Alex Jones version of reality, I think I'd feel obligated to take up arms against the government, not simply shout slogans in a free-speech zone.

I...

Well...

No, I'm going to keep my mouth shut...

HaddEnuff
09-06-2008, 06:40 AM
I agree that truthers are absolutely welcome, as is anyone who will stand up in support of liberty! But they should not use CFL events or their association with Ron Paul to promote 9/11 truth.
If you want 9/11 truth silenced within the CFL you're time would be infinitely better spent corresponding with Dr. Paul for the purpose of encouraging him to cease any further radio appearances on shows like Alex Jones, etc., as well as disassociating himself with people like Jesse Ventura.
Because as it stands now, Ron Paul is using "thruthers" to promote the CFL.


THIS MOVEMENT IS NOT ABOUT 9/11 TRUTH!!! Can't you get it?
NOBODY said it was....Well.... except you.


Asked about whether the Troofers should abandon the "9-11 was an inside job" rhetoric
A little maturity wouldn't hurt, either.

ClayTrainor
09-06-2008, 08:15 AM
I will say this once again and for the very last time. (In my opinion..)

"Truthers" have got to be the biggest cowards on the face of this earth.

You people really believe that our own government intentionally killed thousands of its own innocent citizens and all you cowards can do is stand around and yell about it?

Ron Paul does not believe that our government perpetrated 9/11! He has said this time and time again!!

Not only are you people insane cowards but you are driving sane people away from this movement!

I did not go to the rally specifically because I do not want to be associated with you.

I can handle those who just want to make pot leagle so they can get stoned, even Dr. Paul thinks pot should be leagle but you people take the cake.....:rolleyes:

Well, good thing you provided contructive points and were'nt just randomly throwing insults at truthers :rolleyes:

I bet you think Venturas questions were way out of line and absurd?

it makes perfect sense how obl has not been charged with the crime of 911, right? /sarcasm

Post = Epic Fail

p.s. How come not 1 single "debunker" or "anti-truther" has answered jesse's questions? I've heard alot about how stupid and ridiculous he is, but i have yet to hear an answer.

Why has osama bin laden not been charged with the crime of 911?

"there is not enough evidence" - FBI...

oh and by the way, your post makes you look like a total ignorant jackass, but i still welcome you in this movement... Your "cowards" argument has no basis though. It takes balls to challenge NWO candidates on the events of 911 face to face like many Truthers have done.

The senator Joe Biden Video from "Fabled Enemies" in my signature below is a great example of how it takes some balls to be a real truther.

More balls than you got, im sure.

Oh and lastly... **********Legal*********** not Leagle...

tremendoustie
09-06-2008, 10:49 AM
If you want 9/11 truth silenced within the CFL you're time would be infinitely better spent corresponding with Dr. Paul for the purpose of encouraging him to cease any further radio appearances on shows like Alex Jones, etc., as well as disassociating himself with people like Jesse Ventura.
Because as it stands now, Ron Paul is using "thruthers" to promote the CFL.


Truthers are people with a particular belief -- you seem to refer to them as if their sole function was promoting 9/11 truth. Can't he work with liberty minded freedom loving americans like AJ and JV without asking that they incorporate ALL of their beliefs into the movement? As I say, I work for liberty within the CFL, and work for my other beliefs elsewhere. This is because liberty is very important to me, and I would hate to hinder the effort by hanging people up on my other ideas.



NOBODY said it was....Well.... except you.


Here's a few:

h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
h ttp://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/04/1349480.aspx
h ttp://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/377594_gurwitzonline04.html
h ttp://news.aol.com/elections-blog/2007/07/13/ron-paul-conspiracy-theorist/
h ttp://michellemalkin.com/2007/05/19/trutheriness-and-ron-paul/
h ttp://www.lorien1973.com/ron-paul-911-truther-supporters/

I routinely run into people that think Paul is associated with 9/11 truth, and dislike him for that reason.



A little maturity wouldn't hurt, either.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry about that, I was quoting from a transcript, should have changed it to the correct spelling -- I really wasn't trying to be disrespectful.

GoSlash27
09-06-2008, 11:51 AM
We don't win votes by being truthers. We only loose (sp) them.

My friend, we don't win votes by being libertarian conservatives either. :)
I'm not a truther myself, but I welcome anybody to our movement who embraces the cause of Constitutional law and freedom, even if we disagree on everything else.

Jamsie 567
09-06-2008, 11:57 AM
My friend, we don't win votes by being libertarian conservatives either. :)
I'm not a truther myself, but I welcome anybody to our movement who embraces the cause of Constitutional law and freedom, even if we disagree on everything else.

Agreed and last I checked our message is growing not shrinking we just sold out target center. That is pretty big news if you ask me.

The idiots in our movment are the ones who divide us and care so much what other people think. Ron Paul is for freedom of speech the question you should ask your self is why aren't you?

tremendoustie
09-06-2008, 12:10 PM
Agreed and last I checked our message is growing not shrinking we just sold out target center. That is pretty big news if you ask me.

The idiots in our movment are the ones who divide us and care so much what other people think. Ron Paul is for freedom of speech the question you should ask your self is why aren't you?

Of course I believe in free speech. I also believe in exercising my rights responsibly. Given that you believe in liberty and the constitution as well, and want the CFL to succeed, I would think that you would be interested in acting in such a manner as to give it the greatest chance for success. This would mean not bringing all of our own personal beliefs in and attempting to brand the movement with them.

Would I hold a sign up in one hand that says, "macro evolution is a lie, study the facts", and in the other one that says, "support the CFL"? No, because I want the CFL to succeed, and I realize that many who believe in maco-evolution will be turned off to the CFL because of me, were I to behave in such a manner. Behaving in such a manner would be an irresponsible and counterproductive use of my freedom of speech.

Similarly, promoting 9/11 truth alongside the CFL or at CFL events drives away millions of Americans who are not willing to accept the ideas of 9/11 truth at this time. It is a foolish and counterproductive use of freedom of speech (unless you are a neocon, in which case it would be very productive).

GoSlash27
09-06-2008, 12:57 PM
Similarly, promoting 9/11 truth alongside the CFL or at CFL events drives away millions of Americans who are not willing to accept the ideas of 9/11 truth at this time.
I would counsel you to review what Goldwater had to say about this. It's not enough to merely get yourself elected if you're not going to stand up for your own values.

As Ron Paul Republicans, we're very vocal but arguably lonely as well. I accept that, as I will not compromise my principles just to gain a wider stage. I think it's foolish and wrong-headed to demand that of the truthers.
I submit that your attitude of "water down the message in order to get power from the bad guys" is exactly what led the Republican party to where it is today.
Do we want a "popular, electable" movement or do we want to stand up for what America's supposed to be? Look around you and do the math; we're right but the electorate doesn't see it that way.
Our course of action is education and welcoming everybody to our cause we can get on board, even if they disagree on minor points. I welcome all compatriots with open arms.

/just sayin'.

BCR_9er
09-06-2008, 01:00 PM
Why wont the truthers just go away or shut the hell up?

Hey! Stop trying to divide the movement. This movement is about liberty and limited government and our personal beliefs are irrelevant!

I believe 911 was an inside job, but I spend more time spreading our message of liberty and limited gov't rather than "911 was an inside job".

HaddEnuff
09-06-2008, 01:16 PM
Truthers are people with a particular belief -- you seem to refer to them as if their sole function was promoting 9/11 truth.
This is spin I thought you could only get from mainstream media. Well done.


Can't he work with liberty minded freedom loving americans like AJ and JV without asking that they incorporate ALL of their beliefs into the movement?
As I've stated (and you clearly ignored) you need to correspond with Dr. Paul for the answers you seek and quit badgering the Liberty-loving people on this forum.


I routinely run into people that think Paul is associated with 9/11 truth, and dislike him for that reason.
Yes, the dumbed-down are everywhere and probably wouldn't make the most productive members of this movement anyway (sans 9/11 Truth).
You do realize that you don't have to join the CFL to be for liberty?

GoSlash27
09-06-2008, 01:17 PM
In fact....
You know, I have a position that's even more controversial than that of the 'truthers'. I wholeheartedly believe that there should be a penalty for willful violation of the Constitution; that such behavior is criminal. It should be at least as severe as treason, sedition, or espionage (which at the time of this writing warrants death).
Moreover, I firmly believe that our Republic is doomed if we do not rectify this oversight, as at the moment we're relying solely on the "goodwill" and "personal assurance" of POLITICIANS to secure our freedom.

Is that position radical? You betcha. I probably can't get elected dog-catcher as a result of it. But I bet more of you agree with me than not and I won't back down from it.

My advice is to lay off the truthers. They're not popular, but last I checked we weren't exactly 'Miss Congeniality' ourselves. ;)

tremendoustie
09-06-2008, 01:17 PM
I would counsel you to review what Goldwater had to say about this. It's not enough to merely get yourself elected if you're not going to stand up for your own values.

As Ron Paul Republicans, we're very vocal but arguably lonely as well. I accept that, as I will not compromise my principles just to gain a wider stage. I think it's foolish and wrong-headed to demand that of the truthers.
I submit that your attitude of "water down the message in order to get power from the bad guys" is exactly what led the Republican party to where it is today.
Do we want a "popular, electable" movement or do we want to stand up for what America's supposed to be? Look around you and do the math; we're right but the electorate doesn't see it that way.
Our course of action is education and welcoming everybody to our cause we can get on board, even if they disagree on minor points. I welcome all compatriots with open arms.

/just sayin'.

I welcome them as well! And people who are 9/11 truthers have done many great things for this movement! But, 9/11 truth itself is not part of the message. It is not "watering down the message" for 9/11 truth to not be included as part of the CFL message -- the purpose of the CFL has never been for 9/11 truth, it is for liberty and constitutional government. Also, I am not suggesting that 9/11 truthers abandon their beliefs -- they should work hard to promote 9/11 truth. I am only asking that they do so outside of the CFL. The CFL is a tool for liberty and constitutional government -- there are other tools for the promotion of 9/11 truth.

Let's not hinder the tool we have for liberty and constitutional government loading it down with all our other personal beliefs (especially if they are controversial and divisive). Our other beliefs can be promoted elsewhere.

mCsenget
09-06-2008, 01:20 PM
I think Tucker left BECAUSE they were chanting '9/11 was an inside job'.

After I heard them chanting that, I cut my ties with the truth movement. I will no longer speak about 9/11 to anyone, because the movement is an EMBARRASSMENT to Ron Paul supporters. They are the reason why Ron was a fringe candidate, and its only now that I see it.

My country is more important then what happened during 9/11. When we have power, there will be truth, until then, it is counter-productive to associate Ron Paul to the truth movement, you fucking idiots.

How dare they ride the coat-tails of our movement to push their WIDELY unpopular movement. That kind of shit belongs at their own rally. Leave Ron Paul and us OUT OF IT!

you said it, man.

ronpaulhawaii
09-06-2008, 01:22 PM
I welcome them as well! And people who are 9/11 truthers have done many great things for this movement! But, 9/11 truth itself is not part of the message. It is not "watering down the message" for 9/11 truth to not be included as part of the CFL message -- the purpose of the CFL has never been for 9/11 truth, it is for liberty and constitutional government. Also, I am not suggesting that 9/11 truthers abandon their beliefs -- they should work hard to promote 9/11 truth. I am only asking that they do so outside of the CFL. The CFL is a tool for liberty and constitutional government -- there are other tools for the promotion of 9/11 truth.

Let's not hinder the tool we have for liberty and constitutional government loading it down with all our other personal beliefs (especially if they are controversial and divisive). Our other beliefs can be promoted elsewhere.

+2008

Sacrifice that which divides and embrace that which unites. We will win that much sooner.

Rhetoric Matters !!!

m - is a 911 Doubter

GoSlash27
09-06-2008, 01:28 PM
Let's not hinder the tool we have for liberty and constitutional government loading it down with all our other personal beliefs (especially if they are controversial and divisive). Our other beliefs can be promoted elsewhere.
I'm not sure exactly which policies fit within the C4L and which are just "personal opinion".
No doubt a majority (including myself) would insist that "9/11 was an inside job" is not part of our collective position, but that transparency of government is.

You know, we now have the dubious honor of hosting the only "convention" this cycle that *didn't* muzzle their protestors?
We had one protestor (don't know if you knew) who stood outside with a 4x8 RP sign with "SUCKS" spray painted on it. Rather than shouting him down, trying to take his sign, or calling in the riot cops to set up a "free speech" zone for him, we embraced him, told him that we disagreed with him but would fight for his right to say his say, and left him in peace.

Would you muzzle our *supporters* just to get ahead? :o And how many of our other core tenets would you leave on the cutting room floor?

tremendoustie
09-06-2008, 01:33 PM
I'm not sure exactly which policies fit within the C4L and which are just "personal opinion".
No doubt a majority (including myself) would insist that "9/11 was an inside job" is not part of our collective position, but that transparency of government is.

You know, we now have the dubious honor of hosting the only "convention" this cycle that *didn't* muzzle their protestors?
We had one protestor (don't know if you knew) who stood outside with a 4x8 RP sign with "SUCKS" spray painted on it. Rather than shouting him down, trying to take his sign, or calling in the riot cops to set up a "free speech" zone for him, we embraced him, told him that we disagreed with him but would fight for his right to say his say, and left him in peace.

Would you muzzle our *supporters* just to get ahead? :o

No, I do not support using force to prevent the speech of those of us who believe in 9/11 truth. What I am hoping is that since they love freedom and consitutional government (and would like to see a full 9/11 investigation), they will be willing to use their freedom wisely, and do all they can to not hinder the liberty movement, since it is in all of our best interests. I have personal beliefs as well, which I refrain from promoting alongside the CFL or at CFL events for just that reason.

As for principles that are central to the CFL, I think this is a reasonable statement: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/mission/

HaddEnuff
09-06-2008, 01:34 PM
I welcome them as well! And people who are 9/11 truthers have done many great things for this movement! But, 9/11 truth itself is not part of the message.
Then stop trying to make it one.


It is not "watering down the message" for 9/11 truth to not be included as part of the CFL message -- the purpose of the CFL has never been for 9/11 truth, it is for liberty and constitutional government.
You and the mainstream media are the only ones trying to make it out to be.
You just don't get it if you honestly believe the mainstream media is EVER going to accept the Ron Paul movement. 9/11 just happens to be its last best excuse to ridicule it.
Until you realize that you're probably not going to be comfortable in this movement.


Let's not hinder the tool we have for liberty and constitutional government loading it down with all our other personal beliefs (especially if they are controversial and divisive).
You mean like the fed, the IRS, non-intervention, etc.
Wake up, this entire movement is meant to be divisive. It's very purpose is to break away from the status quo.
I really have to ask, why are you here if you don't understand this?
I'm beginning to think you're not for Ron Paul or liberty or the CFL at all but perhaps nothing more than a provocateur.
Please prove me wrong.

Ninja Homer
09-06-2008, 02:27 PM
A question for the Anti-Truther Patrol:

If I ask, "Why hasn't Osama bin Laden been put on a most wanted list, and why has he not been indicted?", would that make me a Truther?

To me that's just healthy questioning of a lying government.

If you think that makes a person a Truther, then watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LamnqSDy3c

edit: quoting the video:

Ron Paul: "He (Ventura) did ask 2 questions, about, "Why hasn't Osama bin Laden been put on a most wanted list, and why has he not been indicted?" Don't you think those are pretty reasonable questions?"

Glenn Beck: "I do think those are reasonable. Absolutely, I do think so."

Ron Paul: "I agreed with that, and I think he had a moderate tone, so you might argue I've toned him down a bit."

If Jesse Ventura's questions make him a Truther (and me), then it also makes Ron Paul a Truther as well as Glenn Beck.

There are 2 kinds of Truthers: the kind that absolutely believe 9/11 was an inside job without enough solid proof to back their claim, and the kind that absolutely believe the 9/11 report, also without enough solid proof to back their claim. Most people are somewhere in the middle; "9/11 skeptics" or "9/11 questioners" would be a much more fitting term. Don't be so quick to throw people in a box labeled "Truther", or you may be kicking needed supporters out of the movement.

However, I agree that people shouldn't mix campaigning for 9/11 Truth and campaigning for liberty. Put the 2 together, and it waters down both movements.

ps - I haven't read the whole thread... I have more important stuff to do, but thought I'd add my 2 bits.

rockandrollsouls
09-06-2008, 02:27 PM
Then stop trying to make it one.


You and the mainstream media are the only ones trying to make it out to be.
You just don't get it if you honestly believe the mainstream media is EVER going to accept the Ron Paul movement. 9/11 just happens to be its last best excuse to ridicule it.
Until you realize that you're probably not going to be comfortable in this movement.


You mean like the fed, the IRS, non-intervention, etc.
Wake up, this entire movement is meant to be divisive. It's very purpose is to break away from the status quo.
I really have to ask, why are you here if you don't understand this?
I'm beginning to think you're not for Ron Paul or liberty or the CFL at all but perhaps nothing more than a provocateur.
Please prove me wrong.

The truthers are entitled to have their own beliefs, but it's an issue when they try and bring it to the forefront of Ron's rallies. If they were to recall the Ron Paul website, there was NOTHING on it about a 911 truth movement. They need to stop associating it with him and with us.

rockandrollsouls
09-06-2008, 02:28 PM
A question for the Anti-Truther Patrol:

If I ask, "Why hasn't Osama bin Laden been put on a most wanted list, and why has he not been indicted?", would that make me a Truther?

To me that's just healthy questioning of a lying government.

If you think that makes a person a Truther, then watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LamnqSDy3c

If Jesse Ventura's questions make him a Truther (and me), then it also makes Ron Paul a Truther as well as Glenn Beck.

There are 2 kinds of Truthers: the kind that absolutely believe 9/11 was an inside job without enough solid proof to back their claim, and the kind that absolutely believe the 9/11 report, also without enough solid proof to back their claim. Most people are somewhere in the middle; "9/11 skeptics" or "9/11 questioners" would be a much more fitting term. Don't be so quick to throw people in a box labeled "Truther", or you may be kicking needed supporters out of the movement.

However, I agree that people shouldn't mix campaigning for 9/11 Truth and campaigning for liberty. Put the 2 together, and it waters down both movements.

ps - I haven't read the whole thread... I have more important stuff to do, but thought I'd add my 2 bits.

No...it's a valid question. What's not valid is "911 was an inside job!!!!" In fact, I wouldn't have even brought it up in that manner. If it was to be mentioned I'd say "Full transparency in all investigations." That's perfectly fair and reasonable.

tremendoustie
09-06-2008, 02:35 PM
Then stop trying to make it one.


You and the mainstream media are the only ones trying to make it out to be.
You just don't get it if you honestly believe the mainstream media is EVER going to accept the Ron Paul movement. 9/11 just happens to be its last best excuse to ridicule it.
Until you realize that you're probably not going to be comfortable in this movement.


I'm very comfortable in this movement, more so than any other movement I've been a part of. We don't need to unnecessarily give them tools to ridicule us. If they ridicule us let it at least be for the principles we are standing up for. It would be a shame for us to marginalize ourselves for beliefs which are not even the ones we're trying to advance.



You mean like the fed, the IRS, non-intervention, etc.
Wake up, this entire movement is meant to be divisive. It's very purpose is to break away from the status quo.


No, its very purpose is to promote liberty and constitutional government. Breaking from the status quo is not a purpose. If all I want to do is break from the status quo and be divisive I can go run around the neighborhood in my underwear, or heck, become a communist. Let's be aware of what our goals are, and then do our best to achieve them. 9/11 truth is not a goal of the CFL.



I really have to ask, why are you here if you don't understand this?
I'm beginning to think you're not for Ron Paul or liberty or the CFL at all but perhaps nothing more than a provocateur.
Please prove me wrong.

:rolleyes:

tremendoustie
09-06-2008, 03:01 PM
Truthers are people with a particular belief -- you seem to refer to them as if their sole function was promoting 9/11 truth. Can't he work with liberty minded freedom loving americans like AJ and JV without asking that they incorporate ALL of their beliefs into the movement? As I say, I work for liberty within the CFL, and work for my other beliefs elsewhere. This is because liberty is very important to me, and I would hate to hinder the effort by hanging people up on my other ideas.


This is spin I thought you could only get from mainstream media. Well done.

What? Did you read what I wrote? I'm saying truthers are people with a particular belief, NOT that their sole function is promoting 9/11. Are you disagreeing with me? You seem very angry, and I'm not sure why.

You were saying that involving AJ, JV, etc in this movement implied that 9/11 truth would be promoted within it. I was just saying that these people could choose to focus on the core issues of the CFL when promoting the CFL, that's all.



As I've stated (and you clearly ignored) you need to correspond with Dr. Paul for the answers you seek and quit badgering the Liberty-loving people on this forum.


Huh? What would Dr. Paul tell me? I agree that he should keep going on AJ, etc, and promote the CFL wherever liberty loving Americans can be found. I'm just asking that people focus on promoting the ideas of the CFL when associating themselves with the CFL. Is that really unreasonable? I certainly don't mean to badger anyone.



Yes, the dumbed-down are everywhere and probably wouldn't make the most productive members of this movement anyway (sans 9/11 Truth).
You do realize that you don't have to join the CFL to be for liberty?


We're trying to convince everyone to support liberty and constitutional government, including those who believe in 9/11 truth and those who don't. We cannot succeed without attracting the mainstream. I'm just saying we shouldn't shoot ourselves in the foot by making people think they must agree with you about 9/11 to join the movement, or agree with me about climate change, or agree with uncle benny about the proper usage of dental floss in order to support the movement. We should be clear about the message, lest we unnecessarily turn people off.

If you want to promote 9/11 truth, and I want to promote the idea that global warming is caused by the sun, and uncle benny wants to hold presentations on proper dental hygine, we should all do these things outside of the CFL. This is because none of these things is the purpose of the CFL, and it can only serve to turn non 9/11 truthers, those who believe global warming is manmade, and the British off to the movement ;). Ok, sorry bad joke on that last one, I meant those opposed to dental floss.

SeanEdwards
09-06-2008, 03:17 PM
You know, we now have the dubious honor of hosting the only "convention" this cycle that *didn't* muzzle their protestors?
We had one protestor (don't know if you knew) who stood outside with a 4x8 RP sign with "SUCKS" spray painted on it. Rather than shouting him down, trying to take his sign, or calling in the riot cops to set up a "free speech" zone for him, we embraced him, told him that we disagreed with him but would fight for his right to say his say, and left him in peace.

Would you muzzle our *supporters* just to get ahead? :o And how many of our other core tenets would you leave on the cutting room floor?

This is a very interesting point for discussion.

There's been other threads talking about the controlling actions of the GOP at their convention, and it's very interesting to contrast that situation with the CFL's internal divisions about whether to squelch 9/11 truth and other ideas at CFL events.

While we may all find the actions of the GOP goons at their convention to be offensive, an argument can be made that their rigid control of their party can be a source of political effectiveness. I don't think anybody can deny that the GOP organization has been a successful political party in this country for a long time. Some of the stuff they are doing must be working.

I think it is interesting for us to think about ways that we can organize our own movement so that we can remain true to our liberty principles, while also benefitting from the force multiplying effect of disciplined group cooperation.

Discipline and liberty seem to be contradictory in some ways, and this may be the main reason the libertarian "party" has never achieved any political power, despite representing a fairly popular ideology.

So my challenge to all you readers at RPF is to think about how our movement can be disciplined and still preserve the individual liberty of it's members.

Printo
09-06-2008, 03:29 PM
I think most of the people on this board & in this movement can agree to the fact that there needs to be further investigation into who in the government is responsible for allowing this gigantic tragedy to occur. Who is the incompetent one in the government that didnt do their job? How come no one was fired for this? These are all fair questions to ask. I dont associate those views with the 911 Truther movement & neither do most people.

Most people view the 911 Truther movement as a bunch of conspiracy theorists who think 911 was an inside job. It is these individuals who vocalize their beliefs on the subject matter that are hurting this movement. It hurts us when at Ron Paul events you hear these chants or see Truther gear. When people dont know much about our movement and are interested in seeing what its about see this, they are immediately turned off.

rockandrollsouls
09-06-2008, 03:43 PM
I think most of the people on this board & in this movement can agree to the fact that there needs to be further investigation into who in the government is responsible for allowing this gigantic tragedy to occur. Who is the incompetent one in the government that didnt do their job? How come no one was fired for this? These are all fair questions to ask. I dont associate those views with the 911 Truther movement & neither do most people.

Most people view the 911 Truther movement as a bunch of conspiracy theorists who think 911 was an inside job. It is these individuals who vocalize their beliefs on the subject matter that are hurting this movement. It hurts us when at Ron Paul events you hear these chants or see Truther gear. When people dont know much about our movement and are interested in seeing what its about see this, they are immediately turned off.

No, I think most people here there should be full transparency in ANY investigation. I think the sane one's here don't believe we need to try and piece together pieces that don't fit to make it seem like the government did it.

walt
09-06-2008, 03:49 PM
Go to 911 Truther Meetup groups & post your messages on 911 Truther message boards. Do not post your conspiracy theories on this board, do not talk about it in the chat room, do not talk about it at events, do not mention them in the same conversation. Just be quiet.

with all due respect, you have no right to tell anyone what to do. It's for the moment still a free country.

Printo
09-06-2008, 03:55 PM
No, I think most people here there should be full transparency in ANY investigation. I think the sane one's here don't believe we need to try and piece together pieces that don't fit to make it seem like the government did it.

Most people on the outside looking in at the Revolution view the 911 Truth movement as a bunch of conspiracy theorists.

Defining Obscene
09-06-2008, 04:05 PM
I didn't know the rules of Fight Club applied to 9/11.


I understand the frustration of them trying to "hijack" the rally, but barring discussion is exactly what the government and media wants. Until we can sit down and have a candid discussion without name calling and ad hominem attacks, there is nothing credible about the establishment, and we should obey none of it.

rockandrollsouls
09-06-2008, 05:53 PM
I didn't know the rules of Fight Club applied to 9/11.


I understand the frustration of them trying to "hijack" the rally, but barring discussion is exactly what the government and media wants. Until we can sit down and have a candid discussion without name calling and ad hominem attacks, there is nothing credible about the establishment, and we should obey none of it.

They can discuss conspiracy theories over on the truthers board. This forum doesn't mention anything about 9/11 or conspiracy theories.

AndyWhite
09-06-2008, 07:26 PM
You anti-9/11 Truth people are like central planners. Stop acting like you have authority to tell other people what to believe, what to talk about, and what to do. Your anti-9/11 truth positions are a good illustration of the reason we don't have Liberty in the first place. We don't have Liberty because deep down, most people want to control and tell other people what to do. Me and most of my fellow Ron Paul supporters don't believe the governments version of events on 9/11. WHY WOULD ANYONE BELIEVE ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT SAYS? But those are our beliefs and we have the right and reason to have them. Why is it so outrageous that we don't all agree on everything? Apparently you guys would rather fight amongst your own friends and allies than fight for Liberty. Stop attacking fellow advocates of Liberty, that you may disagree with, and start attacking and criticizing the enemies of Liberty. United we are more powerful than divided.

RonPaulR3VOLUTION
09-06-2008, 07:36 PM
Two questions.

1.) If White Supremacists start showing up at 9/11 Truth rallies waving signs about hating blacks and such, would 9/11 Truthers invite them to come back and continue practicing their freedom of speech?

2.) If you think that most people are receptive to 9/11 Truth, does that mean you believe the media repeatedly (and to this day) associated Ron Paul to the 9/11 Truth movement to get him more votes and support?

Thanks.

tremendoustie
09-06-2008, 07:50 PM
You anti-9/11 Truth people are like central planners. Stop acting like you have authority to tell other people what to believe, what to talk about, and what to do. Your anti-9/11 truth positions are a good illustration of the reason we don't have Liberty in the first place. We don't have Liberty because deep down, most people want to control and tell other people what to do. Me and most of my fellow Ron Paul supporters don't believe the governments version of events on 9/11. WHY WOULD ANYONE BELIEVE ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT SAYS? But those are our beliefs and we have the right and reason to have them. Why is it so outrageous that we don't all agree on everything? Apparently you guys would rather fight amongst your own friends and allies than fight for Liberty. Stop attacking fellow advocates of Liberty, that you may disagree with, and start attacking and criticizing the enemies of Liberty. United we are more powerful than divided.

I would never want to forcibly remove your freedom to express your beliefs, please do not throw false accusations around. All I am saying is that those who have a love for freedom and the constitution would be wise to refrain from associating their other personal beliefs with the CFL, especially if those beliefs are divisive or controversial. It would be wise to do this in order to avoid turning off the many millions of people who might otherwise become involved, but are repelled by the personal belief they are espousing.

As I have said, I have personal beliefs that are controversial, which I do not promote alongside the CFL, because I love liberty and the constitution enough to not want to do anything to damage the movement. I find other venues to promote these beliefs.

AndyWhite
09-06-2008, 08:14 PM
The point I was trying to make is that your spending time and energy attacking and telling your allies what to do. If someones beliefs don't suit you, don't associate with them, that's your choice. But don't then spend time and energy fighting your own allies. If you don't think 9/11 Truth should mix with the CFL thats great, because thats your opinion. Apparently other people believe associating 9/11 Truth with the CFL is good, and thats fine because that's their opinion. I personally will argue for and promote Liberty in the best way I see fit. And thats good. But I won't spend time and energy attacking those in the movement whose beliefs are different than mine.

For example, I am an Anarcho-Capitalist, so I do not consent to being governed by anybody. However, there are plenty of people in our movement who advocate a Republican form of government, and often call themselves Minarchists. I disagree with the Minarchists that we need a government at all, but I'm not going to spend my time attacking and criticizing them. Rather, I will work with them to advocate Liberty.

brianewart
09-06-2008, 08:18 PM
I heard there was some kind of altercation between the asshole truthers and Tucker Carlson. They supposedly scared him off & he stopped being MC. What exactly happened?? I also heard the truthers were chanting "911 was an inside job" during the Ventura speech. Why wont the truthers just go away or shut the hell up? It seems they use this movement of small government, free markets & anti-war and turned it into a conspiracy theory camp. It really angers me that they are destroying the movement.

Seconded.

Ron Paul didn't run on a platform of 9/11 conspiracy theories. The rEVOLution was forward-looking, not backward-looking.

tremendoustie
09-06-2008, 08:28 PM
The point I was trying to make is that your spending time and energy attacking and telling your allies what to do. If someones beliefs don't suit you, don't associate with them, that's your choice. But don't then spend time and energy fighting your own allies. If you don't think 9/11 Truth should mix with the CFL thats great, because thats your opinion. Apparently other people believe associating 9/11 Truth with the CFL is good, and thats fine because that's their opinion. I personally will argue for and promote Liberty in the best way I see fit. And thats good. But I won't spend time and energy attacking those in the movement whose beliefs are different than mine.


I am not trying to attack or fight anyone, I am only trying to persuade those who believe in Liberty and the Constitution, as I do, and who also have other controversial beliefs, as I do, that the best way to promote those personal beliefs is separately, lest the effort for Liberty and the Constitution be hindered. I am doing my best to work for the success of the liberty movement, and that certainly includes reasoning with compatriots regarding strategy.



For example, I am an Anarcho-Capitalist, so I do not consent to being governed by anybody. However, there are plenty of people in our movement who advocate a Republican form of government, and often call themselves Minarchists. I disagree with the Minarchists that we need a government at all, but I'm not going to spend my time attacking and criticizing them. Rather, I will work with them to advocate Liberty.

I support your right to those beliefs, and the rights of the minarchists, and the rights of the 9/11 truthers, and want to work with them to advocate Liberty as well. I imagine, however, that you realize holding a sign at a CFL event stating, "Anarchy NOW!" would be counterproductive, no? You realize that the CFL might be falsely associated (especially by our press and those with a vested interest) with the ideas of anarchy, and so turn off many who might have joined the effort, but disagree with or are even repelled by your stance. I am not trying to cast anyone out, only trying to convince them that our common interests for liberty, constitutional government, (and yes, their interest in a 9/11 investigation) are best served by pursuing a particular course of action.

PatriotOne
09-06-2008, 08:51 PM
Two questions.

[QUOTE]1.) If White Supremacists start showing up at 9/11 Truth rallies waving signs about hating blacks and such, would 9/11 Truthers invite them to come back and continue practicing their freedom of speech?

LOL. Comparing truthers to white supremists. Apples and oranges dude.


2.) If you think that most people are receptive to 9/11 Truth, does that mean you believe the media repeatedly (and to this day) associated Ron Paul to the 9/11 Truth movement to get him more votes and support?

No. Many brainwashed sheeple fell for it because they still think cavemen weilding boxcutters attacked America and Hussien had weapons of mass destruction. In fact, they will always fall for false flag operations and willingly give up their rights to protect them because they do not know the truth. Only the truth will set the sheeple free.

RonPaulR3VOLUTION
09-06-2008, 09:11 PM
Two questions.
1.) If White Supremacists start showing up at 9/11 Truth rallies waving signs about hating blacks and such, would 9/11 Truthers invite them to come back and continue practicing their freedom of speech?




LOL. Comparing truthers to white supremists. Apples and oranges dude.


You're dodging the question, and I am not surprised. It makes a very good point. Interesting that you're not jumping for a chance to defend free speech at Truther events.



2.) If you think that most people are receptive to 9/11 Truth, does that mean you believe the media repeatedly (and to this day) associated Ron Paul to the 9/11 Truth movement to get him more votes and support?




No. Many brainwashed sheeple fell for it because they still think cavemen weilding boxcutters attacked America and Hussien had weapons of mass destruction. In fact, they will always fall for false flag operations and willingly give up their rights to protect them because they do not know the truth. Only the truth will set the sheeple free.

So you agree that the media was doing it to hurt Ron Paul and helping the media to do it more will just hurt Ron Paul more?

Once again, I'd like to point out that I'm not 'anti-Truther'. I just believe they are two separate movements, and I know there are 'truthers' who agree with that position. By seperate movements, I mean they assist Ron Paul but do not use him for their own gain.

CasualApathy
09-06-2008, 11:27 PM
I just read this entire thread and I have a few observations:

1) Ron Paul sets a great example we should all follow. Ron Paul promotes his philosophy, but he doesn't tell people what to do or what to believe. He welcomes anyone who wants to support his beliefs as long as they don't expect him to support all of theirs.

2) Ron Paul does not believe in an inside job, but he also doesn't get offended by the idea of 9/11 truth, and in spite of continued MSM attacks he refuses to bow to their preassure and cut all ties to the truthers. Ron Paul is a man of principle so he won't accept the idea that he should avoid people simply because of their beliefs, even with the MSM and others telling him that it would be the advantageous thing to do.

3) Those that are the most harsh in their criticism of truthers keep referring to this exchange where Ron Paul was asked about the issue at the debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k

Ron makes it clear that he doesn't endorce those views, but you forget to quote the rest of the exchange. Ron also clearly stresses that he won't tell his supporters what to do and that it is ridiculous that people expect him to. He is making the point that this is a non-issue, and that he won't be playing favorites amongst his supporters. Twisting this into "Ron Paul wants the truthers to go away because they are destroying the movement" as some of you have tried to do is just a blatant lie.

4) I see that pretty much all truthers and non-truthers alike who have posted here agree that running around screaming "9/11 was an inside job" at people is not a good way to promote Ron Paul, so I wonder about all the controversy here. The people doing that have only ever been a tiny minority of the truthers, and yet the "anti-truthers" here keep stubbornly arguing this issue as if every single truther was doing it.

We all agree on this issue so relax a little, okay?

5) I assume that everyone here knows how anti-establishment movements have been infiltrated and sabotaged by government agents in the past. There are plenty of mainstreem documentaries about it out there in case you don't. I wonder why it doesn't occur to you that the people doing these things that reflect so poorly on our movement might not be Ron Paul supporters at all. Or perhaps you'd care to argue that it is ridiculous to assume that infiltration is occurring in our movement as well?

In conclusion let me just suggest that we all follow Ron's example, and that we stop using this 200+ post thread to attack eachother and instead start talking about the issues that unite us.

mbburch
09-06-2008, 11:43 PM
You sheeple will never learn even though your leader gives you numerous clues as to what he really thinks about 9/11. HE INVITED JESSE TO SPEAK AT THE RALLY WHILE KNOWING HIS VIEWS ABOUT 9/11 BEFOREHAND! HE REGURALY GOES ON ALEX JONES RADIO PROGRAM WHILE KNOWING MOST OF ALEX'S LISTENERS ARE 9/11 TRUTHERS!.

Please buy a clue!

The above quote gives us a glimpse into the irrational thought process of so-called "Truthers."

You're saying that 9/11 was a conspiracy AND Ron Paul actually knows this but is scared to talk about it! Without denying the possibility that this is the case, do you really think it's a likely scenario? Wouldn't a more probable explanation be that Dr. Paul simply does not buy into your crackpot 9/11 theories?

Paul has never been afraid to tell us what he believes; he does not need to insinuate or "drop clues." He has said many times that 9/11 was a result of our government's interventionalist foreign policy, not a conspiracy or "inside job." By advancing these alternative realities you distract from the real problem: failed leadership and incompetency of our elected leaders.

Ventura was invited to speak at CFL because he's an advocate of freedom and limited government, not for his views on 9/11.

Defining Obscene
09-07-2008, 03:26 AM
The above quote gives us a glimpse into the irrational thought process of so-called "Truthers."

You're saying that 9/11 was a conspiracy AND Ron Paul actually knows this but is scared to talk about it! Without denying the possibility that this is the case, do you really think it's a likely scenario? Wouldn't a more probable explanation be that Dr. Paul simply does not buy into your crackpot 9/11 theories?

Paul has never been afraid to tell us what he believes; he does not need to insinuate or "drop clues." He has said many times that 9/11 was a result of our government's interventionalist foreign policy, not a conspiracy or "inside job." By advancing these alternative realities you distract from the real problem: failed leadership and incompetency of our elected leaders.

Ventura was invited to speak at CFL because he's an advocate of freedom and limited government, not for his views on 9/11.
You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You think Ron Paul doesn't know what Alex Jones or Ventura stand for? If he was trying to "distance" himself from that movement, would he go on these people's shows and allow them to speak at his conventions? Our interventionist policy has much to do with our standing overseas, but 9/11 is painfully obvious that it should not grouped in with that. Ron Paul read the 9/11 commission report, yet hes open to a new investigation - you do the math. Instead of calling it a crackpot theory and insulting many of the people who want liberty and accountability, realize that the only alternative reality is that ignoring the elephant in the room is acceptable, especially for political reasons.

It really boggles me how people are complaining about MSM, yet they bitch and moan when some people speak out and allegedly "scare them away". They were ALWAYS scared to begin with. Its a grassroots campaign for a reason. If you really think we can just walk by what happened 7 years ago and hope it will never happen again, then I advise you look up Einstein's definition of "insanity".

As Rudy says, "only in America".

syborius
09-07-2008, 05:05 AM
Oh please, you're supporting the wrong person if you think Ron Paul supports 911 Truthers or that he is in any way associated with the Truther movement.

Go ahead & spew your ignorance. You're killing the Revolution with your 1st Amendment Rights. Learn when its appropriate to exercise your civil liberties. If you care anything about Ron Paul and the Revolution, you will not talk about 911 Truth.

You're the one that's ignorant. The majority including Ron Paul would like to see a new investigation, he has supported one from the start. You say that 911 is not as important as winning elections. 911 is equally important if not more so. The reason that Ron Paul ran for president was because of 911, the wars, and the attack on our liberties.

Maybe you need to pull your head out of your arse. As a true libertarian I am here for the principles that Ron Paul espouses, and I am here to protect unpopular speech, the only speech that needs to be protected. Like someone else said, click the X if the truther contingent in the movement bothers you so much and stop your whining.

Printo
09-07-2008, 07:37 AM
Ron Paul is not a Truther!

Just because he wants a new investigation into 911, doesn't mean he thinks it was an inside job. He wants a new investigation so that we know where the blame is to be placed. Who in the government failed to do their job. Who's incompetence allowed this tragedy to happen? Why haven't these people been fired?

I dont have a problem with the Truther movement. I do have a problem with Truthers using the Ron Paul movement to push their own agenda. For the sake of the Revolution, keep your thoughts to yourself about 911 Truth when at Ron Paul events. 911 Truth is extremely unpopular & taboo to talk about & it scares off regular people & those on the fence looking at joining the movement. If this movement is to grow & become popular, all the conspiracy theory talks must be minimized because they hurt more than help what we are trying to do.

Anti Federalist
09-07-2008, 08:23 AM
Printo's sig line:


Disbanding habeas corpus, the FCC, National ID cards, The Patriot Act. Who's really taking trying to take away your freedom??

Hint: its not the terrorists.

That alone is enough to "scare off" your "average" voter.

After watching the RNC it is clear to me why RP did not gain any "traction".

The GOP is now the War Party. RP's anti-war stance is what scared off the average republican.

Not the Fed, not 9/11 Truth, not throwing snowballs at Hannity.

It is that issue alone, I heard it over and over, "Well I like Ron Paul but we have to fight the terrorists."

So if you are going to gain any traction within the GOP (a futile effort) then you must convince the average GOP voter that the wars are lies, meant only to grow the health and power of the state.

I don't think that is possible, the War Party is a clear and present danger to the Republic, the faster it is killed off, the better off freedom will be.

LibertyEagle
09-07-2008, 08:33 AM
I don't think that is possible, the War Party is a clear and present danger to the Republic, the faster it is killed off, the better off freedom will be.

The only problem is that BOTH of the major parties are war parties. The Democratic Party is steeped in war; the Republican Party is just more of a newcomer. Both have become leftist, big government, organizations.

constituent
09-07-2008, 08:47 AM
The only problem is that BOTH of the major parties are war parties. The Democratic Party is steeped in war; the Republican Party is just more of a newcomer. Both have become leftist, big government, organizations.

exactly. thank you.

ronpaulhawaii
09-07-2008, 09:03 AM
[emp. added.]


I just read this entire thread and I have a few observations:

1) Ron Paul sets a great example we should all follow. Ron Paul promotes his philosophy, but he doesn't tell people what to do or what to believe. He welcomes anyone who wants to support his beliefs as long as they don't expect him to support all of theirs.

2) Ron Paul does not believe in an inside job, but he also doesn't get offended by the idea of 9/11 truth, and in spite of continued MSM attacks he refuses to bow to their preassure and cut all ties to the truthers. Ron Paul is a man of principle so he won't accept the idea that he should avoid people simply because of their beliefs, even with the MSM and others telling him that it would be the advantageous thing to do.

3) Those that are the most harsh in their criticism of truthers keep referring to this exchange where Ron Paul was asked about the issue at the debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k

Ron makes it clear that he doesn't endorce those views, but you forget to quote the rest of the exchange. Ron also clearly stresses that he won't tell his supporters what to do and that it is ridiculous that people expect him to. He is making the point that this is a non-issue, and that he won't be playing favorites amongst his supporters. Twisting this into "Ron Paul wants the truthers to go away because they are destroying the movement" as some of you have tried to do is just a blatant lie.

4) I see that pretty much all truthers and non-truthers alike who have posted here agree that running around screaming "9/11 was an inside job" at people is not a good way to promote Ron Paul, so I wonder about all the controversy here. The people doing that have only ever been a tiny minority of the truthers, and yet the "anti-truthers" here keep stubbornly arguing this issue as if every single truther was doing it.

We all agree on this issue so relax a little, okay?

5) I assume that everyone here knows how anti-establishment movements have been infiltrated and sabotaged by government agents in the past. There are plenty of mainstreem documentaries about it out there in case you don't. I wonder why it doesn't occur to you that the people doing these things that reflect so poorly on our movement might not be Ron Paul supporters at all. Or perhaps you'd care to argue that it is ridiculous to assume that infiltration is occurring in our movement as well?

In conclusion let me just suggest that we all follow Ron's example, and that we stop using this 200+ post thread to attack eachother and instead start talking about the issues that unite us.

This!

The assaults on the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments are enough to get people on board without much controversy.

red-pill lite...

onward!

Anti Federalist
09-07-2008, 09:35 AM
The only problem is that BOTH of the major parties are war parties. The Democratic Party is steeped in war; the Republican Party is just more of a newcomer. Both have become leftist, big government, organizations.

You won't get an argument from me about that.

The democrat party has done a good job of hiding that fact.

I think in the modern usage the democrats represent the "welfare" wing of the "Welfare/Warfare" state.

mbburch
09-07-2008, 09:59 AM
You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You think Ron Paul doesn't know what Alex Jones or Ventura stand for? If he was trying to "distance" himself from that movement, would he go on these people's shows and allow them to speak at his conventions? Our interventionist policy has much to do with our standing overseas, but 9/11 is painfully obvious that it should not grouped in with that. Ron Paul read the 9/11 commission report, yet hes open to a new investigation - you do the math. Instead of calling it a crackpot theory and insulting many of the people who want liberty and accountability, realize that the only alternative reality is that ignoring the elephant in the room is acceptable, especially for political reasons.

It really boggles me how people are complaining about MSM, yet they bitch and moan when some people speak out and allegedly "scare them away". They were ALWAYS scared to begin with. Its a grassroots campaign for a reason. If you really think we can just walk by what happened 7 years ago and hope it will never happen again, then I advise you look up Einstein's definition of "insanity".

As Rudy says, "only in America".

Being "open to a new investigation" does not mean that he thinks the attack was an inside job. There's a HUGE difference, and again, your willingness to connect dots that don't exist is further testament to what I'm talking about. You take an extremely unlikely scenario and then focus on a specific set of facts to suit that case.

Paul speaks his mind. If he really thinks 9/11 was planned & carried out by our government then he is LYING TO US. If you're right, he's part of the coverup because he knows what really happened but refuses to tell us!

I'm asking which is more likely in your mind:

1). Paul thinks 9/11 was an inside job and is lying to us, but he sometimes drops a subtle clue as to what he really believes.

2). Paul thinks 9/11 was carried out by Muslims who were pissed off due to 50 years of U.S. interventionalism and support of Israel.

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 10:01 AM
You're dodging the question, and I am not surprised. It makes a very good point. Interesting that you're not jumping for a chance to defend free speech at Truther events.

Ask a question that makes sense and perhaps you will get an answer.


So you agree that the media was doing it to hurt Ron Paul and helping the media to do it more will just hurt Ron Paul more?

And until the masses know the truth, the MSM will always be able to fool the people into voting for yet another corrupt NWO shill.


Once again, I'd like to point out that I'm not 'anti-Truther'. I just believe they are two separate movements, and I know there are 'truthers' who agree with that position. By seperate movements, I mean they assist Ron Paul but do not use him for their own gain.

Reality check......RP's movement is approximately 50% truthers, RP has benefited from them instead of the other way around. The "truth moverment" has gained nothing by supporting RP and yet we do it anyways.

freelance
09-07-2008, 10:02 AM
You won't get an argument from me about that.

The democrat party has done a good job of hiding that fact.

I think in the modern usage the democrats represent the "welfare" wing of the "Welfare/Warfare" state.

It was really quite amusing to watch the gatekeepers at Huffpo and Kos silence the dissension after the BIG O's vote on FISA, his remarks about off-shore drilling and his war stances. There is going to be a collective implosion of their brains after the election if Obama wins. I suppose that's the silver lining. Maybe, just maybe, they will come to their senses, but I don't have any more hope for them than I do for the GOP at large. It will be fun to watch their disillusionment grow. Misery loves company.

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 10:04 AM
So if you are going to gain any traction within the GOP (a futile effort) then you must convince the average GOP voter that the wars are lies, meant only to grow the health and power of the state.

Exactly. It really is that simple and has been crystal clear to me from the beginning.

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 10:10 AM
The assaults on the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments are enough to get people on board without much controversy.


I disagree. Until the masses realize our rights were not taken away to protect us from the terrorists, they will give up their rights for the illusion of being protected from the terrorists.

Take it from an expert:

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."

Hermann Goering

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 10:35 AM
Once again, I'd like to point out that I'm not 'anti-Truther'. I just believe they are two separate movements, and I know there are 'truthers' who agree with that position. By seperate movements, I mean they assist Ron Paul but do not use him for their own gain.

Reality check......RP's movement is approximately 50% truthers, RP has benefited from them instead of the other way around. The "truth moverment" has gained nothing by supporting RP and yet we do it anyways.

Upon further reflection, I am going to retract my statement above somewhat. Truthers have benefited by being in the RP movement. We have benefitted by having a common bond with other RP supporters and having the opportunity to educate them further on 9/11. The opposite is true also. I know, I for one, have been educated by non-truthers on issues I would have never bothered to take the initiative to look at on my own. We all benefit by becoming more educated. And no, the trolls on this board, who are paid to divide us and post incessently denying the evidence of a flase flag operation are not representative of the true RP supporters on this board who have benefitted from our knowledge.

Charles Wilson
09-07-2008, 11:43 AM
Folks I think it is correct to say that we all know that our government is the cause, if not the perpetrator, of many of the terrible things that happen in this country. Whether the US government covertly orchestrated and/or helped destroy the twin tower complex -- as many believe -- is not the point. I was watching CNN as the second airplane hit one of the towers, therefore I have no doubt about what brought that tower down. The point is, our foreign policy in the Middle East was the driving force that led 19 radicals to hijack civilian airplanes and commit suicide by flying those planes into the towers. The radical leaders in the Middle East gave our government fair warning on several occasions to get off of their turf. They attacked us on several occasions before hitting the twin towers. The arrogant globalists in Washington would not listen. That is the factual story that should be told. If a Congressional investigation will help shed light on the facts then it will be very helpful in getting the truth out as to the cause and who was responsible. I am very suspicious of anyone who is afraid of learning the truth.

BTW: The government involvement in the Waco massacre in the early 90s was one of the reasons for the bombing of the Federal building in Oklahoma City -- it was payback.

"The two main conspirators, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, had met in 1988 at Fort Benning during Basic Training for the U.S. Army.[3] Michael Fortier was an Army roommate of McVeigh's.[4] As a survivalist, McVeigh viewed guns as important tools for survival, since they could be used to protect one's food and other supplies from desperate marauders after the collapse of the economy. The three shared antigovernment views, including opposition to gun control and anger at the federal government's handling of the Waco Siege and the incident at Ruby Ridge. McVeigh decided to bomb a federal building as a counter-attack for these raids.[5]"

HaddEnuff
09-07-2008, 11:55 AM
Folks I think it is correct to say that we all know that our government is the cause, if not the perpetrator, of many of the terrible things that happen in this country. Whether the US government covertly orchestrated and/or helped destroy the twin tower complex -- as many believe -- is not the point. I was watching CNN as the second airplane hit one of the towers, therefore I have no doubt about what brought that tower down. The point is, our foreign policy in the Middle East was the driving force that led 19 radicals to hijack civilian airplanes and commit suicide by flying those planes into the towers. The radical leaders in the Middle East gave our government fair warning on several occasions to get off of their turf. They attacked us on several occasions before hitting the twin towers. The arrogant globalists in Washington would not listen. That is the factual story that should be told. If a Congressional investigation will help shed light on the facts then it will be very helpful in getting the truth out as to the cause and who was responsible. I am very suspicious of anyone who is afraid of learning the truth.

BTW: The government involvement in the Waco massacre in the early 90s was one of the reasons for the bombing of the Federal building in Oklahoma City -- it was payback.

"The two main conspirators, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, had met in 1988 at Fort Benning during Basic Training for the U.S. Army.[3] Michael Fortier was an Army roommate of McVeigh's.[4] As a survivalist, McVeigh viewed guns as important tools for survival, since they could be used to protect one's food and other supplies from desperate marauders after the collapse of the economy. The three shared antigovernment views, including opposition to gun control and anger at the federal government's handling of the Waco Siege and the incident at Ruby Ridge. McVeigh decided to bomb a federal building as a counter-attack for these raids.[5]"
If this movement is to succeed, tuning out the mainstream media must be the first step.

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 12:05 PM
The point is, our foreign policy in the Middle East was the driving force that led 19 radicals to hijack civilian airplanes and commit suicide by flying those planes into the towers.

Just one problem with that. It is not the truth and by promoting that lie, people will just blame the error on "stupidity" of our Government and elect another NWO stooge like Obama/McCain not knowing the real motivation behind the false flag operation. Then another "false flag" operation can take place during the Obama or McCain admin to continue the war(s) because they will justify it yet again because the terrorists attacked us. The truth is the only thing that is going to bring the people back to their senses and what you said is NOT the truth.

ronpaulhawaii
09-07-2008, 12:06 PM
I disagree. Until the masses realize our rights were not taken away to protect us from the terrorists, they will give up their rights for the illusion of being protected from the terrorists.

...

What do you base your point of disagreement on? That some tactics aren't working? What is your solution?

Other solutions have been effectively the same since the outset and ARE working. Red-Pill Lite, brought to The People face to face. With the truth in our eyes, we are succeeding; not by scaring the heck out of people, but by killing our opponents with kindness, Hawaiian style...

And you can quote any old propaganda you want, but I am here to tell you, after ground campaigning in over 20 states for the last year and a half, that The People are not as heavily asleep as some would suggest. I maintain that the assaults on the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments are fertile ground for spreading the roots.

onward and forward...

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 12:09 PM
"The two main conspirators, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, had met in 1988 at Fort Benning during Basic Training for the U.S. Army.[3] Michael Fortier was an Army roommate of McVeigh's.[4] As a survivalist, McVeigh viewed guns as important tools for survival, since they could be used to protect one's food and other supplies from desperate marauders after the collapse of the economy. The three shared antigovernment views, including opposition to gun control and anger at the federal government's handling of the Waco Siege and the incident at Ruby Ridge. McVeigh decided to bomb a federal building as a counter-attack for these raids.[5]"

Jesus....our Gov did the OKC bombing also. Go read some fucking books and quit being a useful idiot. Sorry Charlie, but I get so sick of the ignorance :mad:

constituent
09-07-2008, 12:23 PM
"The two main conspirators, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, had met in 1988 at Fort Benning during Basic Training for the U.S. Army.[3] Michael Fortier was an Army roommate of McVeigh's.[4] As a survivalist, McVeigh viewed guns as important tools for survival, since they could be used to protect one's food and other supplies from desperate marauders after the collapse of the economy. The three shared antigovernment views, including opposition to gun control and anger at the federal government's handling of the Waco Siege and the incident at Ruby Ridge. McVeigh decided to bomb a federal building as a counter-attack for these raids.[5]"

ewww... ewww... ewww...

are we ready to talk about the sundowner hotel in Cebu City yet?

rajibo
09-07-2008, 12:27 PM
Jesus....our Gov did the OKC bombing also. Go read some fucking books and quit being a useful idiot. Sorry Charlie, but I get so sick of the ignorance :mad:

Can you please give me one or two books as an introduction to 9/11 truth?

And non-truthers, feel free to give me one or two books that refute 9/11 truth.

I've paid zero attention to this except when that weird lady was on Howard Stern saying the planes that flew into the buildings were cartoons.

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 12:31 PM
I maintain that the assaults on the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments are fertile ground for spreading the roots.

onward and forward...

Sure, if you hope to take the country back in the year 3000. Take a lesson from the NWO, they shock and awed us into giving up our rights in one day. The truth shock and awe's the sheeple in one day also.

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 12:34 PM
Can you please give me one or two books as an introduction to 9/11 truth?

And non-truthers, feel free to give me one or two books that refute 9/11 truth.

I've paid zero attention to this except when that weird lady was on Howard Stern saying the planes that flew into the buildings were cartoons.

I'll be glad to get you some links to books. There are quite a few out there. Have you watched any of the dozens of docum,entaries free on google vids done on the subject yet? I can get you links to some of the better ones.

Jamsie 567
09-07-2008, 12:40 PM
I'll be glad to get you some links to books. There are quite a few out there. Have you watched any of the dozens of docum,entaries free on google vids done on the subject yet? I can get you links to some of the better ones.

The best documentary I have seen which everyone should see whether you believe in this topic or not. "The last man out" The story of the William Rodriguez. He was the only person to have a key to the trade center on 9/11.

rajibo
09-07-2008, 12:41 PM
I'll be glad to get you some links to books. There are quite a few out there. Have you watched any of the dozens of docum,entaries free on google vids done on the subject yet? I can get you links to some of the better ones.

Please do. Whatever you think is the best.

nate4ron
09-07-2008, 12:47 PM
Seriously, the 9/11 Truth Movement is soiling Ron Paul's message and the Ron Paul Revolution. The truthers piggy-back on Ron Paul, as a means of getting "mainstream" legitimacy. It sickens me to know that they are only making things worse for everyone, and even pushing potential friends away, such as Tucker Carlson and Glenn Beck.

Thanks for fucking ruining Ron Paul's image. No, of course it's not enough to hold your own forums and rallies. You have to attach yourself to a totally seperate cause. There's a difference between being a 9/11 truther who endorses Ron Paul's message and a 9/11 truther who wants to take advantage of Ron Paul. The latter make me sick.

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 12:48 PM
Can you please give me one or two books as an introduction to 9/11 truth?

And non-truthers, feel free to give me one or two books that refute 9/11 truth.

I've paid zero attention to this except when that weird lady was on Howard Stern saying the planes that flew into the buildings were cartoons.

I hadn't heard about the weird lady on Howard Stern. I assure you real planes hit the WTC's and the truth movement does not think they were cartoons :p.

The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions by David Ray Griffin might be a good book for you. It goes into what the "official" report claims and as the title suggests, the lies of the official report itself. Since most people aren't even sure what the "official" report claims, it is hard to understand why we call them liars in the first place. This book is a good education on the official claims as well as debunking them.

He has other great books on the subject also:

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&applicationContextPath=%2Fgp%2Fsearch%2Fconstruct-application-context.mi&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=David%20Ray%20Griffin&page=1

constituent
09-07-2008, 12:49 PM
put it this way... if you're not ready to address Cebu City, either you're on the take or haven't looked into it... and need to.

kthnx

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 12:58 PM
The best documentary I have seen which everyone should see whether you believe in this topic or not. "The last man out" The story of the William Rodriguez. He was the only person to have a key to the trade center on 9/11.

Ohhhhh....I haven't seen that one I don't think. I have seen him do lectures though and he is quite compelling. Rodriguez is a true hero in every sense of the word and refused to become a spokesperson for the Bush Admin because he knew first hand they were lying. He truly has major integrity!

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 12:59 PM
Please do. Whatever you think is the best.

There are literally dozens of documentaries out there on the subject and most of them are worth watching (some are intentional disinfo though so be careful). Here are some very worthy ones to start with. If you are like most people, these will get you started on the education of a lifetime because one becomes rather obssessed with the subject and related subjects. Knowing truth becomes an obsession :p

William Rodriguez, 'The Last Man Out' of 1 WTC, Contradicts the 9/11 Commission

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3141459330837530942&ei=siTESOKbMKiIqQOqpIi6BQ&q=last+man+out&hl=en

Loose Change has a special place in my heart since it is one that not only woke me up in the first place, but has literally woke up millions of people. It has been viewed by around 20 million people now even though Google kept removing it or resetting the view counter.

Loose Change, Final Cut

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3719259008768610598&ei=oyXESMCMBZmyqAPUlOS2BQ&q=loose+change&hl=en

9/11 Press for Truth

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250&ei=SSfESKXoDKLWqAPFq7y8BQ&q=9%2F11+press+for+truth&hl=en

rajibo
09-07-2008, 01:00 PM
I hadn't heard about the weird lady on Howard Stern. I assure you real planes hit the WTC's and the truth movement does not think they were cartoons :p.


Paula Gloria was the lady. They always prank her public access show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zml0PI2XJTQ

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Seriously, the 9/11 Truth Movement is soiling Ron Paul's message and the Ron Paul Revolution. The truthers piggy-back on Ron Paul, as a means of getting "mainstream" legitimacy. It sickens me to know that they are only making things worse for everyone, and even pushing potential friends away, such as Tucker Carlson and Glenn Beck.

Thanks for fucking ruining Ron Paul's image. No, of course it's not enough to hold your own forums and rallies. You have to attach yourself to a totally seperate cause. There's a difference between being a 9/11 truther who endorses Ron Paul's message and a 9/11 truther who wants to take advantage of Ron Paul. The latter make me sick.

Blah, blah, blah. Truthers don't take advantage of RP. Truthers have done more for RP than the rest of the people put together. Now go do something useful besides trying to get rid of RP's most productive supporters.

constituent
09-07-2008, 01:21 PM
Blah, blah, blah. Truthers don't take advantage of RP. Truthers have done more for RP than the rest of the people put together. Now go do something useful besides trying to get rid of RP's most productive supporters.

blah blah blah...


Cebu City.

SeanEdwards
09-07-2008, 01:24 PM
Ask a question that makes sense and perhaps you will get an answer.


His question made perfect sense. Truthers and white supremacists are similar in that they both hold views that are not "mainstream". You seem to want to claim that truthers have a right or duty to shout their inside job theories and slogans whenever, and wherever the mood strikes them. The question is, do you extend that same liberty to other fringey groups like white separatists? Are you prepared to welcome guys in KKK sheet outfits to a CFL rally? Can you comprehend how expression of those divergent views might alienate people who would otherwise support a movement for liberty?

I know speaking for myself, when I was at a Paul rally, and some fucktard started shouting "9/11 was an inside job", I couldn't decide whether to punch the asshole in the face, or just leave the area as quickly as possible. In the end I did neither, but the experience definitely tainted my perception of the rally, and of Paul's supporters.

In today's GOP party we see that the party leadership does not tolerate individuality and free expression during their political events. They escort people out of their rallys if they stray from the approved script. Some say this is evidence of the GOP's fascism. But others might recognize that the GOP's control of the image they present to the public is an important element of their political effectiveness.

Apparently, you care more about shouting stupid slogans than being politically effective, which is your right. But it's also selfish and shortsighted.

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 01:48 PM
His question made perfect sense. Truthers and white supremacists are similar in that they both hold views that are not "mainstream".

You seem to want to claim that truthers have a right or duty to shout their inside job theories and slogans whenever, and wherever the mood strikes them. The question is, do you extend that same liberty to other fringey groups like white separatists? Are you prepared to welcome guys in KKK sheet outfits to a CFL rally? Can you comprehend how expression of those divergent views might alienate people who would otherwise support a movement for liberty?

I know speaking for myself, when I was at a Paul rally, and some fucktard started shouting "9/11 was an inside job", I couldn't decide whether to punch the asshole in the face, or just leave the area as quickly as possible. In the end I did neither, but the experience definitely tainted my perception of the rally, and of Paul's supporters.

Apparently, you care more about shouting stupid slogans than being politically effective, which is your right. But it's also selfish and shortsighted.

9/11 being a false flag operation is not a "view"...it is a fact. Facts are not fringe...facts are facts. The White Supremists are ideological in their movement and therefore susceptible to being fringe or not in their "beliefs".

Now go do some homework on 9/11 instead of being a useful idiot Sean.

SeanEdwards
09-07-2008, 01:55 PM
9/11 being a false flag operation is not a "view"...it is a fact. Facts are not fringe...facts are facts. The White Supremists are ideological in their movement and therefore susceptible to being fringe or not in their "beliefs".

Now go do some homework on 9/11 instead of being a useful idiot Sean.

And welcome to my ignore list, prick.

PatriotOne
09-07-2008, 02:00 PM
And welcome to my ignore list, prick.

I'm fine with that. I just hope you use all your freed up time of not reading my posts to go educate yourself on 9/11 so you can become an educated patriot instead of pissing in the wind.

MikeStanart
09-07-2008, 02:28 PM
his question made perfect sense. Truthers and white supremacists are similar in that they both hold views that are not "mainstream". You seem to want to claim that truthers have a right or duty to shout their inside job theories and slogans whenever, and wherever the mood strikes them. The question is, do you extend that same liberty to other fringey groups like white separatists? Are you prepared to welcome guys in kkk sheet outfits to a cfl rally? Can you comprehend how expression of those divergent views might alienate people who would otherwise support a movement for liberty?

I know speaking for myself, when i was at a paul rally, and some fucktard started shouting "9/11 was an inside job", i couldn't decide whether to punch the asshole in the face, or just leave the area as quickly as possible. In the end i did neither, but the experience definitely tainted my perception of the rally, and of paul's supporters.

In today's gop party we see that the party leadership does not tolerate individuality and free expression during their political events. They escort people out of their rallys if they stray from the approved script. Some say this is evidence of the gop's fascism. But others might recognize that the gop's control of the image they present to the public is an important element of their political effectiveness.

Apparently, you care more about shouting stupid slogans than being politically effective, which is your right. But it's also selfish and shortsighted.


+1776

constituent
09-07-2008, 02:37 PM
I'm fine with that. I just hope you use all your freed up time of not reading my posts to go educate yourself on 9/11 so you can become an educated patriot instead of pissing in the wind.

add me to your ignore list and go read about Cebu City.

V4Vendetta
09-07-2008, 04:34 PM
WTF is up with all these people's new pictures with Lizards? Are you all nuts or something?