Ron Paul's views - some questions...

[fivedollarman]

Hi there folks! I'm posting because for a long time I thought I agreed with just about everything Ron Paul has had to say... But recently I am starting to reconsider some (just some) of Dr. Paul's views. I would love to hear your arguments, because I am sure if I hear a clear and concise point, I'll jump back on Dr. Paul's wagon.

When it comes to foreign policy and the economy, Dr. Paul is certainly dead on. But the things that I am not so sure about are some of the social institutions Dr. Paul is against.

Public Schooling is something I think is necessary to provide. Even Thomas Jefferson believed they were necessary, and is documented to have fought for this institution in his day. It is impractical to think that a major portion of parents are able to stay home to home school their kids or have to pay for expensive private education. "I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain itself in strength: 1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom. 2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each will be within reach of a central school in it." --Thomas Jefferson, 1810.

Socialized Medicine is another idea that Dr. Paul may be too conservative about. The insurance companies are just plain unfair, and I have experienced this first hand. The only remedy I can see is socialized health care in this situation. Besides the fact that many modern nations these days have socialized health care, and have proven to be successful. That quote above could easily be replaced with health care, and I believe if Thomas Jefferson would have believed in public education, he would have also believed in public medicine.

Now you may say, "sure thats all well and great if this was possible", because surely this all needs to be paid for, and if I truly am a Ron Paul Republican, I wouldn't believe in a tax. But I will draw upon Thomas Jefferson to explain this one, "The tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance."

Maybe Jeffersonian Republicans are different than Ron Paul Republicans in that, Jeffersonian Republicans believe some social institutions are necessary...

All I am saying is maybe there should be some form of a tax (though a very small one) to pay for these conveniences. These are pretty much the only two things I keep racking over in my mind. Maybe I might have a prejudice, as I am a Christian who believes in "help thy neighbor." But to me, it's just the standard of a modern nation to have education and health care. Am I partially turning into a Democrat? I don't know! Please someone argue this and put some sense into my mind!

[trey4sports]

Hi there folks! I'm posting because for a long time I thought I agreed with just about everything Ron Paul has had to say... But recently I am starting to reconsider some (just some) of Dr. Paul's views. I would love to hear your arguments, because I am sure if I hear a clear and concise point, I'll jump back on Dr. Paul's wagon.

When it comes to foreign policy and the economy, Dr. Paul is certainly dead on. But the things that I am not so sure about are some of the social institutions Dr. Paul is against.

Public Schooling is something I think is necessary to provide. Even Thomas Jefferson believed they were necessary, and is documented to have fought for this institution in his day. It is impractical to think that a major portion of parents are able to stay home to home school their kids or have to pay for expensive private education. "I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain itself in strength: 1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom. 2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each will be within reach of a central school in it." --Thomas Jefferson, 1810.

Socialized Medicine is another idea that Dr. Paul may be too conservative about. The insurance companies are just plain unfair, and I have experienced this first hand. The only remedy I can see is socialized health care in this situation. Besides the fact that many modern nations these days have socialized health care, and have proven to be successful. That quote above could easily be replaced with health care, and I believe if Thomas Jefferson would have believed in public education, he would have also believed in public medicine.

Now you may say, "sure thats all well and great if this was possible", because surely this all needs to be paid for, and if I truly am a Ron Paul Republican, I wouldn't believe in a tax. But I will draw upon Thomas Jefferson to explain this one, "The tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance."

Maybe Jeffersonian Republicans are different than Ron Paul Republicans in that, Jeffersonian Republicans believe some social institutions are necessary...

All I am saying is maybe there should be some form of a tax (though a very small one) to pay for these conveniences. These are pretty much the only two things I keep racking over in my mind. Maybe I might have a prejudice, as I am a Christian who believes in "help thy neighbor." But to me, it's just the standard of a modern nation to have education and health care. Am I partially turning into a Democrat? I don't know! Please someone argue this and put some sense into my mind!


Quite simply I dont think we can look to "public" education as a success.
I know you were trying to make the point that public education is a successful venture that still pays dividends, however centralized schooling has been a mainstay in americanculture and we have never really experienced true free market k-12 schooling, thus we have no way to measure public scholing vs. private.
you can look at the current public school system versus private schooling, and ofcourse we know who has higher prestige and better education oppurtunities.
I believe a pure free market schooling system would be more efficient than our current taxpayer induced public school system.
To add onto that point which nation has the best higher education system? is it some centrally planned nation? no, its the United States via free market higher education.
And its the same idea with medicine, there is no better healthcare than in the USA.

[amy31416]

I just emailed someone about our public school system and what a failure it is. If you have a broken/failing system and you continue feeding it money, you tacitly approve of it and keep the status quo.

There is a damned good reason that home schooled kids and kids from other countries do far better on standardized tests--it's because there are standards, higher standards than what we hold our publicly schooled kids to.

Stop funding a broken system. It's not working. We should have the best schools in the world, instead, we have some of the worst.

[Mahkato]

Watch a few of the John Stossel (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=145217) videos. He generally does a good job of addressing these sorts of subjects. Otherwise, check Mises.org (http://www.mises.org/).

[Fox McCloud]

the thing about insurance companies screwing people over is a legitimate function of the government....if you truly have an authentic policy that is non-fraudulent, then an insurance company does not pay, yet they agreed to when you first got the policy...(which is fraud on their part), then it is the duty of the courts to force the companies to pay.

beyond that though, the government really shouldn't get involved in the medical aspect of things--in part, that's why we're in the huge mess we're in today.

There's an excellent article I'd like you to read: http://libertariannation.org/a/f12l3.html It really shows that if the system were to continue, we could have been the crown jewel of the world when it came to health-care...sadly, government always freaks things up.

[bunklocoempire]

fivedollarman wrote:
Maybe I might have a prejudice, as I am a Christian who believes in "help thy neighbor." But to me, it's just the standard of a modern nation to have education and health care. Am I partially turning into a Democrat? I don't know! Please someone argue this and put some sense into my mind!


I am a Christian who believes in helping my neighbor. I attended a church supported Christian school, -no government funds.

When the responsibility is shifted to government to provide help, those not providing the help (private citizens) will also suffer. Relationships are avoided, and relationships are most rewarding for both helper and those in need of help.

The more hands on help is, the most benefit will come of it, for ALL involved. The people we cannot help individually are best helped through a private group who are more easily accountable to the folks providing the funds with which to help.

The monetary aspect and accountability should be apparent, where government is involved, budgets, accountability, and choices go out the window.

As far as I've seen, all health insurance is government regulated. And education (if funds from government are taken) is also regulated.

As a Christian you will avoid that slippery slope: "Write a check/pay my taxes, and soothe my conscience about helping my fellow man" Shifting responsibility is NEVER helpful to anyone.

Bunkloco

[Truth Warrior]

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[LibertyEagle]

Socialized Medicine is another idea that Dr. Paul may be too conservative about. The insurance companies are just plain unfair, and I have experienced this first hand. The only remedy I can see is socialized health care in this situation. Besides the fact that many modern nations these days have socialized health care, and have proven to be successful. That quote above could easily be replaced with health care, and I believe if Thomas Jefferson would have believed in public education, he would have also believed in public medicine.

No, I don't think he would. That is what charity is for.

I agree with you that our system is messed up right now. But, it's important to examine how it became "messed up" and address those issues, instead of run to the first solution that our government suggests.

Take hospital charges. They're outrageous and inconsistent. At first glance, one might just say they're crooks and long for government intervention. That is, until you discover that one of the main reasons why hospital bills have increased so much is because they are FORCED by government to treat any and all emergency comers. Whether people can pay at all, or not. That means, we have people using the Emergency Room in lieu of going to a doctor's office and it also means that we have a ton of illegal aliens that the hospital is being forced to treat, when they know damn well that they will receive zero money in return. The hospital in turn has to try to recoup some of this money. From WHO? From US. The ones who have money to pay. Or at least HAD money until they paid both for themselves and all those who didn't pay.

Hospitals are going broke all over the country and those that remain are having a hard time surviving. All because government is forcing them to treat deadbeats and illegal aliens for FREE. No business can afford to do that for long and it is you and I who end up being stuck with their bills.

So, to fix this problem, do you look to the same group who CAUSED the problem to begin with.... government? Or, do you remove the legislation that caused much of this problem to begin with?

Of course, this isn't the only problem, but I used it one, because it is something that I am personally dealing with now, and two, because I think it highlights the importance of first diagnosing the problem accurately, so that we don't run to something that will make the situation even worse.

[Working Poor]

I want to speak about health care being ran by the gov. One thing socialized medicine will do is raise taxes. The cost will go up and so will our taxes.

It cost more for the government to run anything everybody knows that when you get a government contract you charge the government more than you do other customers.

In a free market doctors would determine how much to charge for their services. When a doctor has to go thru insurance companies to get their money this drives up the cost as well because of extra forms and extra people needed to do these tasks.

Would you rather pay a doctor say $20.00 for an office visit or have your income taxed 50% or more for socialized medicine? What if you know how to take good care of yourself and you do not need large amounts of medical care? Is it fair that your income would be taxed 50% or more for socialized medicine? Without insurance health care cost would go down. To me insurance is the biggest scam going btw. I cannot even believe it is legal for them to be in business. I would imagine that only the oil companies make more money that insurance companies. Geeesssse I wish people could see this... what a rip off health care and all insurance really is. OMG!!!!

If doctors determined what their services cost, the cost of health care would probably be cut by at least half or even more. Think of alll the people who have insurance and still have to pay out of pocket for treatment their carrier does not cover. What the hell is that about? People with high cost insurance still die because they cannot afford their treatment which is insane.

Just think about how much more money would be in your pocket if you did not pay high insurance policies each month(which I think is a form of gambling) and think about how much less money will be in your pocket if the government takes over your health care by being taxed at least 50% of your income.

People need to become more aware of what makes them get sick in the first place and start taking better care of themselves the information is out there. Understand that drug companies play a major role in keeping people sick(has anybody listened to the commercials for drug companies and the disclosures they give? OMG!!! the drugs cause worse symptoms than they treat) cause if everyone was well then you wouldn't need a doctors constant care. If I did not take such good care of myself this information alone would be enough to make me sick with anger...

[Working Poor]

.....another thing if we were in real control of our government we would call the good ole' FDA to the carpet on the protection they are supposedly giving us with the toxic life threatening substances that they deem safe to put into our food and water and medicines.

If that doesn't make someone angry I don't know what will...:mad::eek:

[noxagol]

And another thing, health care is NOT in any way shape or form a right. The only rights are property rights. There are no such things as "human rights", this is just an attempt to divorce people from property rights.

It isn't a right if you have take something from someone else, to convince another someone else, to provide something to yet another someone else.

If you lined up all the doctors of the world and they all said no, at gun point, who then would provide you with your right?

[noxagol]

Also, government once fixed the problem of health care being too cheap! http://libertariannation.org/a/f12l3.html

[CountryboyRonPaul]

Public Schooling is something I think is necessary to provide. Even Thomas Jefferson believed they were necessary, and is documented to have fought for this institution in his day. It is impractical to think that a major portion of parents are able to stay home to home school their kids or have to pay for expensive private education. "I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain itself in strength: 1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom. 2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each will be within reach of a central school in it." --Thomas Jefferson, 1810.



I believe Ron Paul would rather dissolve the National Dept. of Education, and see the power to institute Educational policy into the hands of local and state government.


Really, how feasible is the national system of standardized testing that schools must live up to today? Often times schools put more emphasis on passing these tests than they do on real education.

[LibertyEagle]

Yes, even Reagan said he wanted to get rid of the Department of Education.

[NH4RonPaul]

There is only one goal of public education today and that is to brainwash children into the global socialist world government, period. I know this firsthand.

Second, people could pay taxes and then get the money back for use for the schools of their choice, INCLUDING those of us who have NEVER had kids in any school and pay amounts like $10K per year for school taxes.

The reason that government needs to get out of education is, we have no more local control, NONE. We may pay for it by our property taxes, but the UN via UNESCO and all their treaties, declarations and agreements they have set up for themselves are what drives our Fed Dept of Ed laws, and it sucks...

As for health care, TAX US LESS, and we can afford our own.

The founders had a tea party for 4% and now we are paying 35-40%?

We are long overdue for another revolution.....

I hope I live to see it.