Has anyone else become an anarchist because of Paul?

[acroso]

I'm nearly there....or at least extremely sympathetic and open to listening to how it can work on a state level.

I certainly think the U.S. Constitution needs to scrapped and replaced with the Articles of the Confederation that way the Federal Government is defanged.

[BarryDonegan]

you can't scrap the constitution right now. there are too many government backed corporations with too much control over the public opinion. what you would get instead, would be a popularly elected far-worse socialist constitution.

remember, that because power to the people sounds good... power to the people sometimes can be bad.

proof? now. believe it or not, while there are a few vote fraud situations to block a candidate... they are done by citizens, in large number, without protest. the majority of elected officials, however, were elected by the people, for reasons that you and i disagree with.

right now the majority of people believe more in socialism and authoritarianism than they do republican government.

if an anarchist style revolution occurred, it would create a power vacuum for a despotic socialism of the worst kind to come about.

limited government beats anarchism every time, practically, and idealogically.

i do believe the limitations on government should go so far as to where a lot of people who aren't open minded might call it anarchism, but its not.

i think the people will not change their mind until barack obama gets elected, and does the same stuff Bush did. i think that will change everyone towards mistrust of the government. right now they still believe its just the "Wrong" big government.

[richardfortherepublic]

I went from Libertarian to Republican... I am pro-choice.

I wont ever be an anarchist, because when Joe six pack, and Sally stay-at-home think of Anarchism, they think of a certain heroin shooting bass player... and its over like that.

[newyearsrevolution08]

I think anarchy and what some of the so called anarchists of today believe are separate things.

[BarryDonegan]

in other words, the constitution we do have, while its being ignored, was by-in-large created by an american populace that just had a revolution, and wasn't going to put up with intrusive government. there was som compromise, and after 200 years our legislative code no longer follows the rules.

however, if we took away the constitution and started over, the same people who created the legislative rules that ignore the constitution, would be writing the rule of law also.

this would result in a bill of rights that said stuff like

"right to euthanize"
"right to health care"
"right to safety from a world with firearms in the hands of everyone"
"right to clean air free from cigarette smoke"
"right to food and a guaranteed job"

this is what we would get.

[brandon]

heroin shooting bass player

Sid Vicious?

lol, he wasn't even an anarchist.

Anyway, I have become much closer to an anarchist over the last year.

When I was circulating petitions to have my name placed on the ballot as an RNC delegate candidate I realized how retarded the whole electoral system is.

[BarryDonegan]

I think anarchy and what some of the so called anarchists of today believe are separate things.

modern anarchism is anarcho-socialism... a belief that government should be a willing cooperation by people at the local level, free of centralized manipulation, but that property should not exist.

the problem with it, is that there is no framework for ensuring that people will participate, and without self-interest, they won't.

furthermore, without the teeth to defend from centralized control, it will just result in a despot coming to take over once the community starts starving to death.

[angelatc]

I'm nearly there....or at least extremely sympathetic and open to listening to how it can work on a state level.

I certainly think the U.S. Constitution needs to scrapped and replaced with the Articles of the Confederation that way the Federal Government is defanged.

It would be easier for me to be an anarchist if I didn't know any.

[Ozwest]

Depends on your definition of anarchist.

According to the founding fathers, and the Constitution, the current government represents anarchy, and Ron Paul is the Patriot.

[newyearsrevolution08]

That is my point. Just like how there are different types of republicans. If someone asked me if I was a republican they would then odds are ask me how the hell I could vote for mccain! There are different types of people within all classes and stereotypes. The majority of americans however just care for the "name" and then they can assume until the sun goes down.


It would be easier for me to be an anarchist if I didn't know any.

[StudentForPaul08]

I have definitely moved to want a much smaller government, not at 0 government, but definitely at a small government who is always in-check and watched for when it is doing something wrong or trying to get bigger.

Thanks Dr. Paul :cool:

[BarryDonegan]

Sid Vicious?

lol, he wasn't even an anarchist.

Anyway, I have become much closer to an anarchist over the last year.

When I was circulating petitions to have my name placed on the ballot as an RNC delegate candidate I realized how retarded the whole electoral system is.

that isn't so much a problem with government, as it is a problem with the party. yes, the more layers of government you have, the more complicated it is. that is the argument for limited government. right now you have 80 different layers of big government to defeat to make it to federal change... ridding of government entirely, however, is just the calm before the fascist storm. it is empowering dictators in the worst sense.

remember that adolf hitler rose to power in the weimar republic due to hyperinflation... since people had a hard time paying for things, their real-life fear and survival instincts kicked in, and the loudest, meanest person who presented some kind of blame for their condition, won public support.

given the same predicament, the same thing will happen, always.

thats why it is important to keep government functional to protect property rights, so that people can be productive and increase the prosperity for everyone.

[gls]

I have become much more radical and much less willing to make excuses for the state over the year I've been following Paul's campaign. I used to describe myself as a libertarian but because that term has now been hijacked by people who I have little in common with politically (e.g. Neal Boortz, Bob Barr) I'm currently much more comfortable describing myself as an anarcho-capitalist.

[newyearsrevolution08]

I have become much more radical and much less willing to make excuses for the state over the year I've been following Paul's campaign. I used to describe myself as a libertarian but because that term has now been hijacked by people who I have little in common with politically (e.g. Neal Boortz, Bob Barr) I'm currently much more comfortable describing myself as an anarcho-capitalist.

Libertarians or anarcho-capitalist.. hmmn the latter seems a bit harder to explain to people.

I think of myself as a republican but just because our party was taken over doesn't mean I need to go find another party to try and claim. What happens when the anarcho-capitalist is taken over by someone else.

Pretty soon we will end up with 37 party affiliations and more segregations to help us all end up in pretty categories over.

Always trying to toss labels on ourselves.

[BarryDonegan]

I have become much more radical and much less willing to make excuses for the state over the year I've been following Paul's campaign. I used to describe myself as a libertarian but because that term has now been hijacked by people who I have little in common with politically (e.g. Neal Boortz, Bob Barr) I'm currently much more comfortable describing myself as an anarcho-capitalist.


if you are more comfortable calling yourself an anarcho-capitalist, then it was you who were hijacking the name :)

hahaha.

anarcho-capitalism, in my mind, is the goal that a libertarian should aspire to, that is not possible, that when you compromise between anarcho-capitalism and reality, you get libertarianism.

so there, the definition, for me, of libertarianism, is the compromise between anarcho-capitalism and reality.

[Ozwest]

But...

Aren't the choices bland?

I grew up in Chicago.

If Barrack is a South sider, he is a crook.

Or he is a Mayor Daley cronie.

[Alawn]

No. I have become more libertarian but I will never become anarchist. I want the government very small but still want it to exist.

[gls]

Well libertarianism used to mean adherence to the non-aggression principle, now it just seems to mean "desiring less government”. Establishment politicians have been supporting that notion for years and look where it has gotten us. Rhetoric means nothing without strong principles to back it up.

I suppose my change in how I self-identify has more to do with my realization that the system is corrupt beyond repair than anything else. I don’t want a label that aligns me with a political process that is morally indefensible.

[Ozwest]

Well libertarianism used to mean adherence to the non-aggression principle, now it just seems to mean "desiring less government”. Establishment politicians have been supporting that notion for years and look where it has gotten us. Rhetoric means nothing without strong principles to back it up.

I suppose my change in how I self-identify has more to do with my realization that the system is corrupt beyond repair than anything else. I don’t want a label that aligns me with a political process that is morally indefensible.

I understand your frustration.

Good government is a process, and not strictly defined.

[acroso]

I would define an anarchist as Thomas Jefferson, someone who opposed the U.S. Constitution but tried to make the best with it by adding in the Bill of Rights once the evil deed was done.

Meaning, we need to do away with the Federal government COMPLETELY. 100% STATE POWER, ZERO POWER WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.


And if certain states want to have no police or only local law enforcement....more power to them. I'd probably move there.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Hamilton-burr-duel.jpg

Aaron Burr, Jefferson's VP, shooting Hamilton.

[LibertyEagle]

I find it curious that you attribute your current interest in anarchy to a 10 term Congressman, Ron Paul. Ron is NOT an anarchist.

[gls]

I would define an anarchist as Thomas Jefferson, someone who opposed the U.S. Constitution but tried to make the best with it by adding in the Bill of Rights once the deed was done.

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him." - my favorite quote from TJ

[BarryDonegan]

Well libertarianism used to mean adherence to the non-aggression principle, now it just seems to mean "desiring less government”. Establishment politicians have been supporting that notion for years and look where it has gotten us. Rhetoric means nothing without strong principles to back it up.

I suppose my change in how I self-identify has more to do with my realization that the system is corrupt beyond repair than anything else. I don’t want a label that aligns me with a political process that is morally indefensible.

everyone in the libertarian party, including bob barr, supports the non aggression principle. I don't see how this has changed.

just because bob novak uses the name once in a while, doesn't mean the term has been hijacked.

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

I'm nearly there....or at least extremely sympathetic and open to listening to how it can work on a state level.

I certainly think the U.S. Constitution needs to scrapped and replaced with the Articles of the Confederation that way the Federal Government is defanged.

Yeah. I'm about where you are.

Anarchocapitalism seems like a pretty watertight case philosophically (I think, from what I've read so far). However, I doubt it can ever be realisticaly achieved (within the next few hundred years), so I'm still determined to do what I can to help make the government adhere to the Constitution it has vowed to preserve and uphold.

[acroso]

Bob Barr supports the war on drugs.

There is NO EXCUSE to ever invade private property especially to go find some weed or some cocaine or whatever that the police suspect might be there....

breaking down doors....it's as insane as the IRS.

And Bob Barr supports that.

hence he'll never get my vote.

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

I find it curious that you attribute your current interest in anarchy to a 10 term Congressman, Ron Paul. Ron is NOT an anarchist.

Ron Paul may not be an (out of the closet?) anarchist, but ironically he's certainly opened many peoples' eyes (including mine) to the philosophical sensibleness of anarchocapitalism. The fact that he throws around names like "Murray Rothbard" and "The Mises Institute" all the time has helped drive a lot of people to anarchocapitalist literature.

[acroso]

Yeah. I'm about where you are.

Anarchocapitalism seems like a pretty watertight case philosophically (I think, from what I've read so far). However, I doubt it can ever be realisticaly achieved (within the next few hundred years), so I'm still determined to do what I can to help make the government adhere to the Constitution it has vowed to preserve and uphold.

I think of you're going to compromise, the goal should be decentralized government. Hitler did away with state's rights as his first priority.

As long as we are moving to weaken the Federal Government and decentralize authority as much as possible....that's the right direction.

[OhioMichael]

Actually, I have become an anarchist because of Paul.

Paul started me along the path. Lew Rockwell, Murray Rothbard, and Lysander Spooner completed my transformation.

The word 'Anarchy' get a bad rap. People freak out when they hear it. But when you fully consider it, anarchy (anarcho-capitalism to be specific) is ideal.

[acroso]

I also find myself hating all politicians. hehe

[LibertyEagle]

Ron Paul may not be an (out of the closet?) anarchist, but ironically he's certainly opened many peoples' eyes (including mine) to the philosophical sensibleness of anarchocapitalism. The fact that he throws around names like "Murray Rothbard" and "The Mises Institute" all the time has helped drive a lot of people to anarchocapitalist literature.

Oh geez, not another one. Are you implying that Ron Paul is not honest about his beliefs? Isn't the fact that he's a 10 term Congressman get across the point that he's not an anarchist. If not, maybe you should consider that he constantly talks about reinstating the Constitution. You know, that doc that outlines our FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

Geesh.

[gls]

everyone in the libertarian party, including bob barr, supports the non aggression principle. I don't see how this has changed.


Bob Barr supports the war on drugs at the state level. That's entirely incompatible with the NAP. Federalism is fine and all, but it has nothing to do with individual liberty.

[Ozwest]

I find it curious that you attribute your current interest in anarchy to a 10 term Congressman, Ron Paul. Ron is NOT an anarchist.

Well said.

"Society is produced by our wants, and government by wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter by negatively restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher. Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil."

Thomas Paine ---

[acroso]

Has anyone ever asked Ron Paul if he thinks the Articles of the Confederation was superior to the U.S. Constitution.

I would think he would prefer the former....

[Truth Warrior]

You're an Anarchist (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer60.html)
Me too, says Butler Shaffer. So are all civilized men, in practice.

[Ozwest]

You're an Anarchist (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer60.html)
Me too, says Butler Shaffer. So are all civilized men, in practice.

I am not an anarchist, I am a peaceful man.

But if required to do so...

Calculated risks of abuse are taken in order to preserve higher values.

[powerofreason]

Problems with minimal government that will always be there no matter what you do:

Goverment will always grow over time, it is inevitable. It will happen.

Government has no incentive to stick to a written constitution. Don't say "the people" will stop unconstitutional laws because we've already seen how incredibly wrong this idea is. Most people don't give a shit about politics or their government, at least not enough to take real action. The Constitution was slowly obliterated over time.

Like I've already mentioned, the vast majority of people don't really care about freedom or even know what it really means to be free.

BTW, I despise leftist anarchists.

[Truth Warrior]

I am not an anarchist, I am a peaceful man.

But if required to do so...

Calculated risks of abuse are taken in order to preserve higher values.
So is Butler Shaffer. ;)

[acroso]

Can anyone find a statement or interview where paul talks about the articles of the confederation?

[Truth Warrior]

Can anyone find a statement or interview where paul talks about the articles of the confederation? Nah, Ron's a US Constitution guy. ;)

Maybe you could try RonPaulLibrary.com (http://www.ronpaullibrary.com/)

[Ozwest]

So is Butler Shaffer. ;)

Geez...

Now you are getting deep...

How much Koala Bear!

[berrybunches]

I'm nearly there....or at least extremely sympathetic and open to listening to how it can work on a state level.

I certainly think the U.S. Constitution needs to scrapped and replaced with the Articles of the Confederation that way the Federal Government is defanged.

I started to lean towards anarchy when I was about 15 years old and read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn which explains how man does best in localized governments following natural law. Funny how most Quinn readers are socialist when he is so against welfare and whatnot.

I have always believed in extremely localized classic governments doing their own thing. Because of Ron Paul I found out the constitution provided for this AND had the advantage of protecting civil liberties I started having a little more respect for a minimal role of government

Funny how Ron Paul turned you off completely to government and turn me a little more towards it lol
I guess it just depends on where we start off.

[Truth Warrior]

Geez...

Now you are getting deep...

How much Koala Bear!

You're an Anarchist (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer60.html)
Me too, says Butler Shaffer. So are all civilized men, in practice.

[Ozwest]

I started to lean towards anarchy when I was about 15 years old and read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn which explains how man does best in localized governments following natural law. Funny how most Quinn readers are socialist when he is so against welfare and whatnot.

I have always believed in extremely localized classic governments doing their own thing. Because of Ron Paul I found out the constitution provided for this AND had the advantage of protecting civil liberties I started having a little more respect for a minimal role of government

Funny how Ron Paul turned you off completely to government and turn me a little more towards it lol
I guess it just depends on where we start off.

I agree with your analysis.

It is difficult for a superpower to remain truly democratic.

[Truth Warrior]

I agree with your analysis.

It is difficult for a superpower to remain truly democratic.

"Democracy is the road to socialism." -- Karl Marx

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

Oh geez, not another one. Are you implying that Ron Paul is not honest about his beliefs? Isn't the fact that he's a 10 term Congressman get across the point that he's not an anarchist. If not, maybe you should consider that he constantly talks about reinstating the Constitution. You know, that doc that outlines our FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

Geesh.

My statement was partly in jest. But there is a part of me that suspects that Ron Paul may be a closet anarchist, yes--and I don't see that as dishonest. Just tactful. When was the last time Ron Paul came out and endorsed the need for government itself? When was the last time he said "Some kind of government is necessary"?

He could very well believe, as I do, that anarchocapitalism is ideal, but desire to, like I do, engage in the political process to try to at least cut down the government to constitutional levels.

[angelatc]

But...

Aren't the choices bland?

I grew up in Chicago.

If Barrack is a South sider, he is a crook.

Or he is a Mayor Daley cronie.

Same thing.

There's no such thing as an honest Chicago politician, but people who haven't lived there don't realize how blatantly and openly corrupt the political system there is

[Ozwest]

Truth Warrior,

Perhaps I am an objective man.

With a hint of salt and pepper.

I am not Butler Shaffer.

[Ozwest]

Same thing.

There's no such thing as an honest Chicago politician, but people who haven't lived there don't realize how blatantly and openly corrupt the political system there is

Have you lived there?

I am a proud blues boy... Nine years.

[Truth Warrior]

Truth Warrior,

Perhaps I am an objective man.

With a hint of salt and pepper.

I am not Butler Shaffer.
I sure didn't need you to tell me that. No danger of confusion here on that one. :D

So just read his article. What ya scared of? :rolleyes:

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

Problems with minimal government that will always be there no matter what you do:

Goverment will always grow over time, it is inevitable. It will happen.

Government has no incentive to stick to a written constitution. Don't say "the people" will stop unconstitutional laws because we've already seen how incredibly wrong this idea is. Most people don't give a shit about politics or their government, at least not enough to take real action. The Constitution was slowly obliterated over time.

Like I've already mentioned, the vast majority of people don't really care about freedom or even know what it really means to be free.

I've always felt this is kind of a double standard. One could just as easily say: Government will always come into existence over time, it is inevitable. It will happen.

Even if we could convert an entire generation of people to anarchists, chances are the next generation would be stupid enough to want a return of government. The pilgrims to America and the settlers of the American West had an essentially anarchist system, and they let it get replaced with government. Every people group in the world started out as anarchy, and one by one, every people group in the world has set up a government.


BTW, I despise leftist anarchists.

Oh God! Don't even get me started on "anarchist" socialism... makes my blood boil how stupid some people can be.

[Ozwest]

I sure didn't need you to tell me that. No danger of confusion here on that one. :D

So just read his article. What ya scared of? :rolleyes:

I did!

I agree with many things you do.

I don't scare easily.

[Truth Warrior]

I did!

I agree with many things you do.

I don't scare easily.

So where did the article lose you? Just curious. :)

[Truth Warrior]

Well libertarianism used to mean adherence to the non-aggression principle, now it just seems to mean "desiring less government”. Establishment politicians have been supporting that notion for years and look where it has gotten us. Rhetoric means nothing without strong principles to back it up.

I suppose my change in how I self-identify has more to do with my realization that the system is corrupt beyond repair than anything else. I don’t want a label that aligns me with a political process that is morally indefensible. It still does. It's not wise to confuse "libertarianism" with the LP ( so called ).<IMHO>

[Ozwest]

So where did the article lose you? Just curious. :)

I mis-trust preachers.

Had enough of charletons.

[Truth Warrior]

I mis-trust preachers.

Had enough of charletons. He's a teacher, not a preacher. ;)

[LibertyEagle]

My statement was partly in jest. But there is a part of me that suspects that Ron Paul may be a closet anarchist, yes--and I don't see that as dishonest. Just tactful. When was the last time Ron Paul came out and endorsed the need for government itself? When was the last time he said "Some kind of government is necessary"?

He could very well believe, as I do, that anarchocapitalism is ideal, but desire to, like I do, engage in the political process to try to at least cut down the government to constitutional levels.

I getcha, but I have to tell you that it sounds a whole lot like the Truthers claiming that Ron Paul believes our government carried out 9-11, even though he has said on numerous occasions that he does not. :p

[Ozwest]

I respect you.

But I disagree.

[powerofreason]

I'm not stupid, I realize that I will not be able to live in a truly free society in my lifetime. Maybe, somehow, possibly hundreds of years in the future, there will be some place in the world where the state will be whittled down to a small enough size where the people decide to just kill it once and for all and experiment with market anarchy. Obviously, if a state suddenly collapses there will be cries for a new government to take over because there will be chaos. There needs to be a transition period for private law and private defense companies to be formed, and DRO's and so on. Theoretically, a system of market anarchy will lead to an extremely prosperous society and that will make the state a very unattractive option for the people. Most people will do quite well and not want a government to steal from everyone so they can benefit from welfare and other gov't programs.

[Truth Warrior]

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/lewrock0305a.gif
"Visit LewRockwell.com, an outstanding and crucially important Web site I visit every day." -- Ron Paul.
"THE REVOLUTION, A MANIFESTO" ( page # 158 ), http://www.lewrockwell.com/ (http://www.lewrockwell.com/) ;)

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

I getcha, but I have to tell you that it sounds a whole lot like the Truthers claiming that Ron Paul believes our government carried out 9-11, even though he has said on numerous occasions that he does not. :p

LOL. I didn't mean it to sound like that. I just have suspicions every now and then that maybe Paul does accept the philosophy of anarchocapitalism, but downplays it and just seeks to engage in the political process to get things moving back in the right direction.

Besides, I'm pretty sure Paul has explicitly said that the 9/11 conspiracy theories are "utterly ridiculous" or something to that effect. I can't recall if Paul has ever said that some form of government is necessary, though. He's just said that if a government has a Constitution it promises to follow, it ought to follow it.

[Truth Warrior]

I respect you.

But I disagree. So what's he do for a living? It's very easily resolved.<IMHO> :rolleyes:

Butler Shaffer [send him e-mail (bshaffer@swlaw.edu)] teaches at the Southwestern University School of Law.

[acroso]

Why has no interviewer ever ASKED Paul what he thought about the Articles of the Confederation.

I was reading another forums where people were claiming Paul though the U.S. Constitution and the Articles were the same thing....didn;t make any sense.


Anyone have any incite into his thoughts?

[Ozwest]

So what's he do for a living? It's very easily resolved.<IMHO> :rolleyes:

He's a professor. So is my Dad.

You are a fair minded adversary... And a patriot.

[Truth Warrior]

He's a professor. So is my Dad.

You are a fair minded adversary... And a patriot. Not if you're just another statist, I'm not. < GRRRRRR! >

:D

[Ozwest]

Not if you're just another statist, I'm not. < GRRRRRR! >

:D

Why don't you follow the fellow brick road?

Who's statist?

I'm for real.

[UnReconstructed]

http://freetalklive.com/tunein.php

If you're close to the edge then jump.

[familydog]

I'm nearly there....or at least extremely sympathetic and open to listening to how it can work on a state level.

I certainly think the U.S. Constitution needs to scrapped and replaced with the Articles of the Confederation that way the Federal Government is defanged.

The federal government was defanged under the Constitution. Under the Articles of Confederation, the federal government had no teeth at all. In fact, in practice there wasn't a federal government at all that could work. :p

[Truth Warrior]

Why don't you follow the fellow brick road?

Who's statist?

I'm for real. That's what's trying to be determined here, oh socialist barbarian viking Neanderthal Aussie. ;)

[Ozwest]

That's what's trying to be determined here, oh socialist barbarian viking Neanderthal Aussie. ;)

I am grinding mollusks to color my cave walls. :D

[Truth Warrior]

I am grinding mollusks to color my cave walls. :D Take a break and check this out. ;)

http://www.amazon.com/Calculated-Chaos-Butler-D-Shaffer/dp/1595263497

[torchbearer]

how can someone who supports a constitutional republic be an anarchist?

[acroso]

The U.S. Constitution gave the Federal Government the power to tax states and use military force against them in case they wanted to secede or leave the union they created.

This is like signing up for a new job but being told u can never leave,

We need to go back to the Articles.


I bet RP prefers the Articles to the U.S. Constitution if he could choose.

[Ozwest]

[quote=torchbearer;1634773]how can someone who supports a constitutional republic be an anarchist?[/quot

A bitter irony.

[torchbearer]

A bitter irony.

Seems like someone who got halfway to their goal and stopped.
Their is still law and order controlled by a government body. no anarchist would stand for that, unless they were just settling for the lesser of two evils.. right?
:D

I think you can be an independent sovereign and still have a government restricted to the protection of rights from mob rule.
We just have to figure out the mechanism for making sure the constitution is followed religiously.

[Ozwest]

Seems like someone who got halfway to their goal and stopped.
Their is still law and order controlled by a government body. no anarchist would stand for that, unless they were just settling for the lesser of two evils.. right?
:D

I think you can be an independent sovereign and still have a government restricted to the protection of rights from mob rule.
We just have to figure out the mechanism for making sure the constitution is followed religiously.

I reached my goal.

You are the man.

Get elected. :D

[Ozwest]

Seems like someone who got halfway to their goal and stopped.
Their is still law and order controlled by a government body. no anarchist would stand for that, unless they were just settling for the lesser of two evils.. right?
:D

I think you can be an independent sovereign and still have a government restricted to the protection of rights from mob rule.
We just have to figure out the mechanism for making sure the constitution is followed religiously.


My next goal is in 2 weeks.

Mt 50'th birthday.

It is freaking me out!

[acroso]

You can't stop the mob (democracy) from growing the government. it's IMPOSSIBLE.

That's why the U.S. Constitution and the Federal Government should be done away with.

If it doesn't exist it can't grow. Lots of all powerful states that have a treaty with the other states (the Articles)

[torchbearer]

I reached my goal.

You are the man.

Get elected. :D

That's the plan.

[torchbearer]

You can't stop the mob (democracy) from growing the government. it's IMPOSSIBLE.

That's why the U.S. Constitution and the Federal Government should be done away with.

If it doesn't exist it can't grow. Lots of all powerful states that have a treaty with the other states (the Articles)

um, you are forgetting something, in the absence of law, their will be mob rule.
that will be the only rule. the biggest baddest mob will rule like tyrants in your anarchist government free world.
the only solution is an educated population willing to hold they few the send to tend to government affairs are held in check to their contractual agreement.

Your argument fails. Your solution would lead to the problem you attribute to all governments.

[Truth Warrior]

how can someone who supports a constitutional republic be an anarchist? Perhaps, because from where we currently are and are continuing to go, it's on the same road in the opposite direction. ;)

:D

[constituent]

Perhaps, because from where we currently are, it's on the same road in the opposite direction. ;)

:D

+1

[Ozwest]

That's the plan.

Best you get on with it.

[torchbearer]

Best you get on with it.

I'm already on it, just waiting for the current guy to die or term out. which ever comes first. he's 92 and sick, so i'm betting on death.
So everything is ready to go for a special election.
Until then, I have been placed as the asst state coordinator of Louisiana for the campaign for liberty. I will be helping put together our election teams here.
Hopefully I will be putting on marksman classes here for regular folks to learn how to become great marksman.
And keep involved locally with people through my family's diner.

[georgiaboy]

Anarchist? No.
Back in touch with my true conservative roots and ideals? Yes. Feels great.

[Truth Warrior]

Anytime y'all are REALLY ready to REALLY start shrinking the state ANY, just go right ahead, no need to wait, on my account. :D

[torchbearer]

Anytime y'all are REALLY ready to REALLY start shrinking the state ANY, just go right ahead, no need to wait, on my account. :D

We would have already done it if you had gotten off your ass and helped.
Takes more than a couple people to move a big boulder, but i assure you, it can be removed. Just need enough people to get off their asses and help.
But hey- its easier just to criticize others on an internet forum.

[mediahasyou]

Remember kids. It doesn't matter what form of gov we have...as much as it matters who has the power.

[mediahasyou]

Anarcho-Capitalism does not always produce complete liberty. As outlined in the article:
http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

Rather, the laws are representative of the people's demand for rights. Like voting with money:rolleyes:

[Ozwest]

A conundrum.

I just got off the phone with a guy who owes me 660.00 in cash.

I have threatened him. He's called me out. I have to collect at a country residence.

Do I go un-armed?

I'm not a wallflower.

[torchbearer]

A conundrum.

I just got off the phone with a guy who owes me 660.00 in cash.

I have threatened him. He's called me out. I have to collect at a country residence.

Do I go un-armed?

I'm not a wallflower.

What is the harm in bringing your gun?
I'd rather be safe than sorry on the exchange.

“You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can get with just a kind word.”
-William Sutton (Slick Willie)

[mediahasyou]

Anarchy is the delusion of escaping power.

Beliefs of Rights is based on culture. The best option is having a small federal government. Then having states and local governments decide rights. This way it best aligns with their culture and beliefs.

The Truth About Big Government Part 1 and 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtzrqvPfnE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqsppmBsTdE&feature=related

[Ozwest]

What is the harm in bringing your gun?
I'd rather be safe than sorry on the exchange.

“You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can get with just a kind word.”
-William Sutton (Slick Willie)

As you know, coppers get carried away.

Otherwise, I would go low grade 410.

[Andrew-Austin]

I'm definitely sympathetic towards anarchy.

[torchbearer]

anarchy is a state of change between one order and the next.
as i said earlier, anarchy will be ruled by mobs, biggest mobs wins and brings a tyranical order.. and the cycle repeats, as it has throughout history.
The only way to stop the cycle is to figure out how to take a dangerous thing like fire(government) and use it for our benefit.
the protection of our rights from the mobs.

Kinda reminds me of the Shivering Isle mod for Oblivion.
The realm of sheogorath is a microcosm of man's cycle of control and chaos.

[Ozwest]

I've freaked out his wife.

Now the bloke is delivering the 660.00 personally.

Should I assault him for good measure for being a wanker.

He's on my property now.

[Truth Warrior]

We would have already done it if you had gotten off your ass and helped.
Takes more than a couple people to move a big boulder, but i assure you, it can be removed. Just need enough people to get off their asses and help.
But hey- its easier just to criticize others on an internet forum. BULLSHIT raised to the Googol power AND delusional. Yep, you're a REAL politician, ALL RIGHT. :p

Nobody loves to find scapegoats like the statists, as a cover for there own half-assed INCOMPETENCE. :p :rolleyes:

Kiss my ass.

It's YOUR government, YOUR problem, YOU fix it.

[Ozwest]

I was called a statist.

What is a statist?

[Truth Warrior]

Anarchy is the delusion of escaping power.

Beliefs of Rights is based on culture. The best option is having a small federal government. Then having states and local governments decide rights. This way it best aligns with their culture and beliefs.

The Truth About Big Government Part 1 and 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtzrqvPfnE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqsppmBsTdE&feature=related

Yep, I've heard that line about 5,000 times since I've been here. :p

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET TO HAVING A SMALL FEDERAL GOVERNMENT? :rolleyes:

[Ozwest]

I've freaked out his wife.

Now the bloke is delivering the 660.00 personally.

Should I assault him for good measure for being a wanker.

He's on my property now.


He's not on my property, but will soon arrive. Guns stay safe and secure in locked cabinets.

I kick 9 out 0f 10 for no reason.

[Truth Warrior]

I was called a statist.

What is a statist?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/statist

[Truth Warrior]

anarchy is a state of change between one order and the next.
as i said earlier, anarchy will be ruled by mobs, biggest mobs wins and brings a tyranical order.. and the cycle repeats, as it has throughout history.
The only way to stop the cycle is to figure out how to take a dangerous thing like fire(government) and use it for our benefit.
the protection of our rights from the mobs.

Kinda reminds me of the Shivering Isle mod for Oblivion.
The realm of sheogorath is a microcosm of man's cycle of control and chaos.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=anarchy&searchmode=term

If ya ain't got the facts, then just bullshit your way through. :p

[mport1]

I have become an anarchist during the campaign after being a minarchist for 4 years. Wasn't because of RP though.

[mediahasyou]

It's [B]YOUR government, YOUR problem, YOU fix it.

Anarchy is a psychological appealing position because you just don't do anything and you can feel good about your apathy. You mindfuck yourself into thinking you not hurting anyone. However, your own lack of motivation hurts in the system we live. Because power does not choose good or evil...it chooses those who reach for it.

Anarchy is not about the question of whether the crazy man will be restrain. But about the question of "who is crazy". Cultures, peoples have different views of rights. Right to health care, right to life, right to freedom of peace. Some of these may seem silly, but others have these views. So where do rights end, where does liberty end? Government decides this, And sadly anarchy does too: http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

It's a mindfuck.

[acptulsa]

It would be easier for me to be an anarchist if I didn't know any.

Truth is golden.

NOTE: Not all of the anarchists I know discourage me. Just most of them.

[mediahasyou]

Yep, I've heard that line about 5,000 times since I've been here. :p

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET TO HAVING A SMALL FEDERAL GOVERNMENT? :rolleyes:

Actually, quite easy.

Anti-federalism already aligns with most peoples beliefs: Everyone gets their way. A small federal government allows states and locals to have their own choice of government: anywhere from communism to libertarianism.

And possibly even anarchy too:pdepending on the size of the federal gov.

[Truth Warrior]

Anarchy is a psychological appealing position because you just don't do anything and you can feel good about your apathy. You mindfuck yourself into thinking you not hurting anyone. However, your own lack of motivation hurts in the system we live. Because power does not choose good or evil...it chooses those who reach for it.

Anarchy is not about the question of whether the crazy man will be restrain. But about the question of "who is crazy". Cultures, peoples have different views of rights. Right to health care, right to life, right to freedom of peace. Some of these may seem silly, but others have these views. So where do rights end, where does liberty end? Government decides this, And sadly anarchy does too: http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

It's a mindfuck.

Thank you. There are NO SHEPHERDS nor SPOKESMEN for the anarchists. :eek:

And now how about ANSWERING the question posed to YOU? :rolleyes:

[torchbearer]

Looks like the advocates of chaos and mob rule are upset at my laying out the facts about anarchy.
sorry to bust your bubble, but believe it or not, i understand the want and desire to be unfettered by any government... and of the idea of sole ownership of self.
but mob rule in chaos isn't going to get you there. sorry.

[Truth Warrior]

Actually, quite easy.

Anti-federalism already aligns with most peoples beliefs: Everyone gets their way. A small federal government allows states and locals to have their own choice of government: anywhere from communism to libertarianism.

And possibly even anarchy too:pdepending on the size of the federal gov. Sorry, that was a very typical duck and dodge to a very clear and simple question. :p :rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

Looks like the advocates of chaos and mob rule are upset at my laying out the facts about anarchy.
sorry to bust your bubble, but believe it or not, i understand the want and desire to be unfettered by any government... and of the idea of sole ownership of self.
but mob rule in chaos isn't going to get you there. sorry. Your continued BS doesn't wash here either. :p :rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

Actually I'm a libertarian. But since the statist GOP LP ( so called ) has stolen that name and corrupted it for 37 years now, I've had to move to the next alternative position for clarification purposes.

[mediahasyou]

What is the goal of anarchy?

If it's Total Liberty then it fails: http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

[mediahasyou]

Actually I'm a libertarian. But since the statist GOP LP ( so called ) has stolen that name and corrupted it for 37 years now, I've had to move to the next alternative position for clarification purposes.

Yes. I too would wish parties would be abolished. Even LP have sheep that follow.

[Truth Warrior]

"Democracy is the road to socialism." -- Karl Marx

Anybody notice yet? :p :rolleyes:

[mediahasyou]

;)Anarcho-Capitalism is democracy: http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

It accomplishes nothing. And yet is the reflection of our society's equilibrium views. Back where we started.;)

[Truth Warrior]

What is the goal of anarchy?

If it's Total Liberty then it fails: http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

Still your turn.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET TO HAVING A SMALL FEDERAL GOVERNMENT? :rolleyes:

[mediahasyou]

Still your turn.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET TO HAVING A SMALL FEDERAL GOVERNMENT? :rolleyes:

Education...People are much better swayed when it already aligns with their views/beliefs.


Actually, quite easy.

Anti-federalism already aligns with most peoples beliefs: Everyone gets their way. A small federal government allows states and locals to have their own choice of government: anywhere from communism to libertarianism.

And possibly even anarchy too;)depending on the size of the federal gov.

[CasualApathy]

You can have a small federal government, and you can limit it by requireing that ANY new federal law requires a public referendum and 80% approval to pass.

[mediahasyou]

You can have a small federal government, and you can limit it by requireing that ANY new federal law requires a public referendum and 80% approval to pass.

The federal government doesn't need legislation. That's what the states are for.

[mediahasyou]

How you can get your ideal government and so can everyone else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtzrqvPfnE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqspp...eature=related

[CasualApathy]

The federal government doesn't need legislation. That's what the states are for.

I know - I was answering a question about how we can have a limited FEDERAL government.

[mediahasyou]

I know - I was answering a question about how we can have a limited FEDERAL government.

Respect.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

http://santacruz.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/6/anarchism_now_2web.jpg

[Knightskye]

Whoever said the Constitution needs to be scrapped - I think you need to be scrapped and replaced with someone with common sense.

[mediahasyou]

Whoever said the Constitution needs to be scrapped - I think you need to be scrapped and replaced with someone with common sense.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=146994

[Ozwest]

Whoever said the Constitution needs to be scrapped - I think you need to be scrapped and replaced with someone with common sense.


Blood Oath!

The fore-fathers must have been talk'in out their ass.

[Ozwest]

I've freaked out his wife.

Now the bloke is delivering the 660.00 personally.

Should I assault him for good measure for being a wanker.

He's on my property now.

Just received monies...

Testesterone levels back to normal levels.

Whew!

[strapko]

The Constitution has failed.

[Ozwest]

The 3 branches of government have failed.

The American public has failed.

About time you got off your asses and did something about it.

[Akus]

I'm nearly there....or at least extremely sympathetic and open to listening to how it can work on a state level.

I certainly think the U.S. Constitution needs to scrapped and replaced with the Articles of the Confederation that way the Federal Government is defanged.

I think the "Constitution scrapped and replaced" part is getting along just fine without you....

[Truth Warrior]

Education...People are much better swayed when it already aligns with their views/beliefs. Just another hypothetical BS non-answer.

Still your turn.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET TO HAVING A SMALL FEDERAL GOVERNMENT? :rolleyes:

I'm asking you personally, individually, literally, really, practically and actually.

If I ask you, "HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET TO HAVING A SMALL DOG?", the answer is NOT "education". :p

[acroso]

The U.S. Constitution gives the government to much power.

[Ozwest]

The way to achieve small government, is to start at a local level, and lead by example.

[Ozwest]

Barrack Obama suckled the teet of Mayor Daleys breast.

Chicago politics leaves no prisoners.

[acroso]

Yes, lead at the local level.

All states should be rallying to secede from the union as a challenge to the Federal Government. They'll probably try to force their control on states that wish to secede but better to test them.

[Ozwest]

McCain will probably win due to South Chicago politics.

[Truth Warrior]

Yes. I too would wish parties would be abolished. Even LP have sheep that follow.

I ain't frickin' talking "parties" here.

Screw parties! Screw politics! Screw government! Screw flocks! Screw SHEPHERDS! Screw STATE! Screw barbarism! Screw force, coercion and violence by "elected" ( so called ) proxy ( so called ). :p

Does that clarify matters somewhat? :)

You personally and individually control your own behavior and are totally responsible and accountable for WHAT YOU DO, no one else. What are YOU going to do?

"I heartily accept the motto,—"That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe—"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will , is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it.Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure." -- Henry David Thoreau "Civil Disobedience" ( 1st paragraph )

What was the size of the US Federal government when Thoreau wrote the above? What is the size today? What will be the size next year? How does that happen? Are you happy about the "change"? If not, what are you doing or are going to do to change it?

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi

[Ozwest]

If McCain wants to create damage.

Investigate Chicago.
I lived there for 9 years.

The windy city is corrupt.

I invite fellow Chicagoans to comment...

[Truth Warrior]

;)Anarcho-Capitalism is democracy: http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

It accomplishes nothing. And yet is the reflection of our society's equilibrium views. Back where we started.;)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy

[Truth Warrior]

You can have a small federal government, and you can limit it by requireing that ANY new federal law requires a public referendum and 80% approval to pass. Fine, given today, how do you get there? :rolleyes:

[Ozwest]

I'm proud to be a...



Chicago Blues Boy!

Say what?


My Momma told me.

[Truth Warrior]

Whoever said the Constitution needs to be scrapped - I think you need to be scrapped and replaced with someone with common sense.

Common sense.<IMHO>

The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html

[Truth Warrior]

The Constitution has failed.

The Federal Constitution Is Dead (http://www.lewrockwell.com/gutzman/gutzman17.html)
Kevin Gutzman on who killed it.

[Truth Warrior]

I think the "Constitution scrapped and replaced" part is getting along just fine without you....

The Federal Constitution Is Dead (http://www.lewrockwell.com/gutzman/gutzman17.html)
Kevin Gutzman on who killed it.

[Truth Warrior]

The U.S. Constitution gives the government to much power.

The Federal Constitution Is Dead (http://www.lewrockwell.com/gutzman/gutzman17.html)
Kevin Gutzman on who killed it.

[Ozwest]

Truth Warrior,

You gotta go fishing.

Have a laugh.

[Truth Warrior]

Truth Warrior,

You gotta go fishing.

Have a laugh.

I have nothing against the poor dumb fish. :rolleyes:

I'm < LMAO >. :D

[Ozwest]

Try a Samson fish at about 100 metres depth.

You'll be smiling.

[Ozwest]

Good tor the biceps.

[Truth Warrior]

Try a Samson fish at about 100 metres depth.

You'll be smiling. I have a deal with the fish. I don't put hooks in their mouths and they don't post on the RPF. ;) :D

[Ozwest]

I have a deal with the fish. I don't put hooks in their mouths and they don't post on the RPF. ;) :D

Ohhh. You must be a naturalist, naturist, or tree hugger. Which one?

Don't worry we have a catch and release program in Australia.

We release yanks to the sharks or crocodiles. :D

[Ozwest]

Would I be redeemed if I listened to Stevie Ray Vaughn?

I think so.

[Truth Warrior]

Ohhh. You must be a naturalist, naturist, or tree hugger. Which one?

Don't worry we have a catch and release program in Australia.

We release yanks to the sharks or crocodiles. :D

None of the above. Just not interested.

Not worrying.

It figures. :rolleyes:

:p

[Ozwest]

None of the above. Just not interested.

Not worrying.

It figures. :rolleyes:

:p

As Stevie Ray would say girl...

Put your white boots on. :D

[Ozwest]

You're no fun.

Can't even muck about. :(

[Truth Warrior]

You're no fun.

Can't even muck about. :(

Start a muck about thread. This one ain't it either. :p :rolleyes:

You're ONLY burying the ON TOPIC thread pages and posts ( on purpose??? ).

Just knock it off. It's really boring!!! :p

[Ozwest]

Start a muck about thread. This one ain't it either. :p :rolleyes:

You're ONLY burying the ON TOPIC thread pages and posts ( on purpose??? ).

Just knock it off. It's really boring!!! :p

Fine.

[Truth Warrior]

"Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long." -- Ron Paul 2004

[georgiaboy]

How you can get your ideal government and so can everyone else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtzrqvPfnE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqspp...eature=related

+a bunch!

love that STOPandLOOK channel. Is that an RPF'er creating those vids?

K
U
D
O
S
!!

[Nate]

There's no such thing as an honest Chicago politician, but people who haven't lived there don't realize how blatantly and openly corrupt the political system there is

Amen to that! This is the last real city political machine in the country. Any politician coming out of Chicago is CORRUPT beyond the comprehension of people who do not live here. Mayor Daley is closely tied to the organized crime syndicates in this city (so was his father), we have the MOST corrupt and violent police force in the country, fixed elections, theft by city employees, politicians going to jail left and right for taking bribes, a legal city run car theft ring, siezure of private land for Mayor Daley's pet projects, etc, etc.
Obama is a crook not fit for the office of President just because he comes from my home town. I have only researched him to find out exactly HOW he is corrupt and power hungry not IF he is corrupt and power hungry. If Obama wins be prepared for the WORST administration in American history. Just look at the corruption in the Illinois state government since the Chicago machine took over the state. Our governors go to jail after they leave office here. How anybody can think a Chicago politician is going to be an honest representative of the people who elect him is amazing to most of the people here in this city who do not support Obama.