Mobilizing the Christians!

[Hancock1776]

http://christians4paul.wordpress.com
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/882475873

There is now a mobilization point forming for Christians who support Ron Paul and want their fellows in faith to do the same. If you are a Christian who believes the President should be a moral man, Ron Paul is a no-brainer. I've launched a website to help people make the case to their pastors and friends throughout the country.

Most importantly, I have a petition started to encourage the National Association of Evangelicals to endorse Ron Paul. Getting their attention will help catapult him farther into the mainstream.

If the Christian Right has any sense at all, they'll endorse Ron Paul. If the Christian Left has any sense at all, they'll endorse Ron Paul. I've not seen any other viable candidate who even comes close in moral integrity and consistency in conduct.

Spread the word to your Christian friends and family!

[wecandoit]

I do believe strongly that true Christian individuals can make up a huge chunk of Ron Paul support, myself included.

I have worries though that the heiarcchy of "Christian" organizations will go along.

No harm in trying, but I'm going to tout Paul as the correct moral choice to individuals one on one. I think that will make a better sell.

[Hancock1776]

I agree that the heirarchy might not be the easiest to persuade away from the party line, but I'm hoping to at least get some attention for the mass of individuals we should be able to rustle up.

[theoddity]

I am a Christian, grew up very evangelical. I am now not nearly as "mainstream evangelical" as I was, so I haven't considered a certain point about the whole Iraq war. Talking with a couple family members this weekend about Ron Paul gave me insight into something that may be hard to sway in some Christian's minds.

If you remember the huge success recently of the Left Behind series, you'll understand that a lot of people enjoyed the whole Armegeddon story, and future prophecy thing (I grew up steeped in the fact that Armageddon was right around the corner). I was talking about the reasons we shouldn't be in Iraq, and why Ron Paul makes a lot of sense, and this is the response I got from two family members: "that the whole middle east conflict was pre-destined, and since we are in the end times, there's nothing we can do about the inevitable Armageddon that's coming in the Middle East."

Now, I have given up on the notion that the tribulation is right around the corner, so haven't considered that that thinking is still a pretty strong undercurrent in mainstream evangelicalism. I was talking with someone just the other day, even, that thought there wasn't much we can do about global warming, since the end of the world is right around the corner, and of anyone in my church, I would have pegged her as the most liberal...

I'm simply placing this post up there, because I know I'm going to have to first debate my family on the Apocalypse before I can even bring up reasons to get away from Iraq. I know that this isn't necessarily the case for all evangelicals, but there is certainly a subconscious feeling among a large segment.

[wecandoit]

Try giving the reasons Jesus authorizes us in the New Testament to use viloence.

They are strikingly similar to what Ron Paul says, self defence only.

If "evangelicals" aren't down with New Testament teachings, then there probably isn't much hope they will see the light, no matter how you pitch it to them.

[Brandybuck]

If you remember the huge success recently of the Left Behind series, you'll understand that a lot of people enjoyed the whole Armegeddon story, and future prophecy thing (I grew up steeped in the fact that Armageddon was right around the corner). I was talking about the reasons we shouldn't be in Iraq, and why Ron Paul makes a lot of sense, and this is the response I got from two family members: "that the whole middle east conflict was pre-destined, and since we are in the end times, there's nothing we can do about the inevitable Armageddon that's coming in the Middle East."
Wow! Talk about a major heresy! We are told that no one but the Father knows when the end times will start, not even Jesus. Do they think Bush has more knowledge than Jesus? These churches urging us to go to war to do God's will are false prophets!

We may not be able to avoid armageddon, but no where in the teachings of Jesus does it tell us to start it!

[tnvoter]

I am a Christian, grew up very evangelical. I am now not nearly as "mainstream evangelical" as I was, so I haven't considered a certain point about the whole Iraq war. Talking with a couple family members this weekend about Ron Paul gave me insight into something that may be hard to sway in some Christian's minds.

If you remember the huge success recently of the Left Behind series, you'll understand that a lot of people enjoyed the whole Armegeddon story, and future prophecy thing (I grew up steeped in the fact that Armageddon was right around the corner). I was talking about the reasons we shouldn't be in Iraq, and why Ron Paul makes a lot of sense, and this is the response I got from two family members: "that the whole middle east conflict was pre-destined, and since we are in the end times, there's nothing we can do about the inevitable Armageddon that's coming in the Middle East."

Now, I have given up on the notion that the tribulation is right around the corner, so haven't considered that that thinking is still a pretty strong undercurrent in mainstream evangelicalism. I was talking with someone just the other day, even, that thought there wasn't much we can do about global warming, since the end of the world is right around the corner, and of anyone in my church, I would have pegged her as the most liberal...

I'm simply placing this post up there, because I know I'm going to have to first debate my family on the Apocalypse before I can even bring up reasons to get away from Iraq. I know that this isn't necessarily the case for all evangelicals, but there is certainly a subconscious feeling among a large segment.


Yes this a common argument, be sure to remind them of why there have been so many years of muslims NOT attacking us, and the bible says not even Jesus knows the exact time of his return, and we should be occupied with doing His work until then. Ron Paul has a pretty stout record of defending freedom of religion also, here's a couple links you should send to your family members:

Dr. Paul writes about the War on Religion at http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html and Jim Vance asks if Dr. Paul could be the candidate of the religious right at http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance109.html .

LIST TAKEN FROM FACEBOOK POST:
"OTHERS TO CONTACT:

Christian Coalition - Coalition@cc.org; (202) 479-6900
Focus on the Family (Dr. James Dobson) - (800) A-FAMILY (232-6459)
Constitution Party: 717-390-1993; state parties at http://www.constitutionparty.com/view_states.php
John Birch Society: (920) 749-3780; contact at http://www.jbs.org/contact.php?id=1
Our American Values (Gary Bauer) - gary.bauer@mail.amvalues.org; 703-671-9700
Renew America (Alan Keyes) - https://www.renewamerica.us/contact.php (Please don't contact his scheduler; that won't do any good)
Toward Tradition (Rabbi Daniel Lapin) - mail@towardtradition.org; 206-236-3046
"

[Capitalism]

Atheists for Ron Paul!

[SeanEdwards]

Yeah, another atheist here for Ron Paul. Paul is my kind of christian. One who doesn't try to impose his religiosity on government.

[Capitalism]

Yeah, another atheist here for Ron Paul. Paul is my kind of christian. One who doesn't try to impose his religiosity on government.

Amen.

Gary Watson, who does a Ron Paul for President podcast, is also an atheist.

[Shii]

Atheists for Ron Paul!

Buddhists for Ron Paul!

Come on, make your own thread ;) There's plenty to be said about how Ron Paul's conservatism is the true Christian conservatism.

[Phil M]

A third atheist for Paul! I find it so incredible how Paul supporters are such a mosaic of people. I never really thought I would be glad to say I support wholeheartedly the same candidate that Pat Buchanan does.

[DjLoTi]

I do believe strongly that true Christian individuals can make up a huge chunk of Ron Paul support, myself included.

I have worries though that the hierarchy of "Christian" organizations will go along.

No harm in trying, but I'm going to tout Paul as the correct moral choice to individuals one on one. I think that will make a better sell.

I consider myself 70% Christian. Faith brings us together, and it's a powerful tool. I love god.. and I love Americans.. Lets just love each other

Promote peace and not unnecessary controversy. Churches will be excited to make real efforts towards personal freedoms, just like we all are!

Lets make sure faith *brings us together*. Not tear us apart. God bless America!!!

[tnvoter]

Yeah, another atheist here for Ron Paul. Paul is my kind of christian. One who doesn't try to impose his religiosity on government.

Here Here!

[Captain Shays]

Here is another article by Laurance Vance that every modern Christian should read.
I also think its a great campaigning tool for Christians to use on other Christians

http://www.lewrockwell.com:80/vance/vance111.html

Christians are ripe for the message of Ron Paul and its amazing how Ron Paul can appeal to both Christians and athiests.

[theblatanttruth]

Atheists for Ron Paul!

Amen brother,

While I do not judge anyone for ANY belief, and I do highly approve faith movements in Ron Paul's favor, it is IMPORTANT for the public to see that SECULAR people and organizations also support Ron Paul - not because of his Christian beliefs, but because HE IS THE ONLY MAN FOR THE JOB.


Atheists for Ron Paul 2008!!!

[Bob Cochran]

We certainly want a President who is able to govern according to the Constitution, no matter what his personal beliefs might be. But if you're hoping Ron Paul won't bring his Christianity into the office with him, you might end up disappointed.

I think it's natural that we will be biased toward candidates who appear to have the same belief system or worldview as we do, and if we pretend otherwise, we could be setting ourselves up for disappointment.

On the flip side of that, there's the matter of voting for someone who you really think shares your beliefs, only to find out that he sort of does, but he has a whole other set of problematic issues that render his beliefs irrelevant.

For example, I know many Christians who are now disgusted with Dubya's stubbornness, inability to admit fault, and general stupidity.

[SlapItHigh]

If you are a Christian who believes the President should be a moral man, Ron Paul is a no-brainer.

I'm a Christian, but I don't much care what morals the President has. I just care about him following the constitution and if he does, it won't matter what his own personal beliefs are.

[Bob Cochran]

I'm a Christian, but I don't much care what morals the President has. I just care about him following the constitution and if he does, it won't matter what his own personal beliefs are.
The President of the United States has enough power that I really think we do want him to be a moral man. If a potential nuclear crisis is looming, you bet we need him to be someone of positive moral fiber.

One of the great strengths of the Constitution is its morality. I think it's naive to believe someone is going to faithfully uphold the Constitution despite possibly being someone of very low morals.

[theblatanttruth]

We certainly want a President who is able to govern according to the Constitution, no matter what his personal beliefs might be. But if you're hoping Ron Paul won't bring his Christianity into the office with him, you might end up disappointed.

I think it's natural that we will be biased toward candidates who appear to have the same belief system or worldview as we do, and if we pretend otherwise, we could be setting ourselves up for disappointment.

On the flip side of that, there's the matter of voting for someone who you really think shares your beliefs, only to find out that he sort of does, but he has a whole other set of problematic issues that render his beliefs irrelevant.

For example, I know many Christians who are now disgusted with Dubya's stubbornness, inability to admit fault, and general stupidity.

I dissagree with you there and I think I've missed your reason for stating it...

Religious beliefs these days are getting less and less intwined with the governing body - not because less believers are in office - but because the American public simply does not stand for it on a growing platform every day. There's simply too much diversity here and too much learning beyond biblical teachings. Now, also, Ron Paul seems like way too much of a stand-up guy to try to impose his belief structure on anyone, especially his own citizens. On top of that, Christianity is so varied in different views and versions and beliefs. How could any one form POSSIBLY make it into acting policy when the majority of believers can't straighten it out amongst themselves and squabble as a result?

Lets face it, G.W.Bush is tying his D*MNDEST to inject America with his personal views intertwined with hisbeliefs - and while it showed SOME progress in leading our country into it, it's not working out very well.

I may just be totally :confused:
but yeah.

[cujothekitten]

It's nice to see the Christians mobilizing to get Ron Paul in office. One of my best friends is an evangelical Christian and she's been talking to a few people in her area. Many of churches members are incredibly pro-Bush and it's been frustrating for her being anti-war.

About a year ago she invited me to attend a special speaking engagement at her church. The speaker was General George Sada (he's the guy that said there were WMD in Iraq and has given 4 different stories about this...). Anyway he did his speech then we had a small dinner afterwards and the pastor invited me to that as well. During the dinner he was more frank in his discussions and talked about how the government needs to be in Iraq forever (yes, he actually said that) then he went on about how EVERY Iraqi citizen is a terrorist!

I promised my friend I wouldn't debate him and be respectful but at one point I had to get up and leave because I started crying. The members of the dinner party (about 20) were almost totally in agreement... even when Sada started to justify torturing people.

About 4 months ago I went back down to visit my friend. Every time I go visit her I also attend her church service. I'm an atheist but I find the people to usually be friendly, most don't know I'm an atheist. After the service the Pastor invited us to lunch with his family. While we were at lunch he apologized for bringing Sada into the church. He said he had been blinded and deceived and he was wrong to do that... he also apologized for making me upset.

I think the evangelical movement is starting to swing. They're starting to see the dangers of blindly following a president that says he's a Christian but doesn't act like one. It took 6 years but Christians are starting to wake up and that gives me some hope.

[qednick]

I'm not very religious at all but I don't try and force my beliefs on anyone else and appreciate when they do the same. I think that's what pulls this mosaic of different folks and beliefs towards Ron Paul.

[cujothekitten]

We certainly want a President who is able to govern according to the Constitution, no matter what his personal beliefs might be. But if you're hoping Ron Paul won't bring his Christianity into the office with him, you might end up disappointed.

I'm ok with a president that has faith, what I'm not ok with is when they start funding it. This is dangerous for both the religious and the non-religious. I don't care about the 10 commandments in a courthouse (though I prefer my tax money doesn't go to putting it there), I don't care about religious symbols on public property (as long as my tax money doesn’t' go to funding it), I'm even cool with the president praying in public (as long as I don't have to do it).

What I like about Ron Paul is that he respects my beliefs (or lack thereof) and won't try to push his faith on me.

[wwycher]

I think that we all understand the point is, that we don't want the government telling how to believe or teaching our kids what to believe. I will be gathering info on what the globalist want for us and our kids. Dr. Pauls message and us explaining what the other side wants to do to us, will sell anybody. I am Christian not a fascist. I was fooled and lied to. I am praying for GW's soul. I said it once, we need to admit we were fooled and humble ourselves and move on.

[wwycher]

To convince Christians we were fooled by GW we need to gather the evidence and also what he promised. The two are very different.

[Brandybuck]

I'm a Christian, but I don't much care what morals the President has.
I very much care. Here are a few of the morals I insist my candidate have:

Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness
Thou shalt not covet

There are three kinds of sin: sin of irrevence, sin of impurity and sin of violence. The first is between you and God. The second tends to be private between individuals, but can lead to scandal. Still, no great harm. But the third is crucial.

The President doesn't have to pray and attend church. He can even commit adultery if he keeps it discreet. But I demand that he not be a liar, warmonger or thief!

[brent022]

I just wanted to say I just checked out the http://christians4paul.wordpress.com/ and was going to use it in an email to several of my more religious friends but became concerned when checking out the links on the page and the Lew Rockwell one took me to a blog whose 1st article on the page is

The Unholy Desire of Christians To legitimize killing in war. Article by Laurence M. Vance.

At best this would concern any of the Christians that would click that link and at worst would make them feel the original site is a trick to get Christians behind Paul.

While the article may be explaining what just *some* Christians are doing the title itself is very inflammitory and I cant send people to the main site with the chance they may click the blog links and see that.

This is just my opinion on how 1st time Christian who dont know anything about Ron Paul or his views might view this.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

I just wanted to say I just checked out the http://christians4paul.wordpress.com/ and was going to use it in an email to several of my more religious friends but became concerned when checking out the links on the page and the Lew Rockwell one took me to a blog whose 1st article on the page is The Unholy Desire of Christians To legitimize killing in war Article by Laurence M. Vance.

At best this would concern any of the Christians that would click that link and at worst would make them feel the original site is a trick to get Christians behind Paul.
While the article may be explaining what just *some* Christians are doing the title itself is very inflammitory and I cant send people to the main site with the chance they may click the blog links and see that.

This is just my opinion on how 1st time Christian who dont know anything about Ron Paul or his views might view this.

Those articles will be replaced with new ones tomorrow. Wait and send your email in the morning.

[DrStrabismus]

In terms of the Armageddon thing, I think a good logical point to make is: if it is inevitable that prophecies will come true, then isn't it our responsibility to try to make things as pleasant as possible along the way? Things will still work out according to scripture, but christians should try to alleviate as much suffering as possible, especially to Americans. It seems the argument for keeping Americans there is to bring stability to the region. If you take them out maybe it will help Armageddon along!

diclaimer: i'm an atheist, but i think the above idea make sense logically given certain premises.

[Mindbinder]

I dissagree with you there and I think I've missed your reason for stating it...

Religious beliefs these days are getting less and less intwined with the governing body - not because less believers are in office - but because the American public simply does not stand for it on a growing platform every day. There's simply too much diversity here and too much learning beyond biblical teachings. Now, also, Ron Paul seems like way too much of a stand-up guy to try to impose his belief structure on anyone, especially his own citizens. On top of that, Christianity is so varied in different views and versions and beliefs. How could any one form POSSIBLY make it into acting policy when the majority of believers can't straighten it out amongst themselves and squabble as a result?

Lets face it, G.W.Bush is tying his D*MNDEST to inject America with his personal views intertwined with hisbeliefs - and while it showed SOME progress in leading our country into it, it's not working out very well.

I may just be totally :confused:
but yeah.

"The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion."

"The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state."

Both of these where said in an article written by Ron Paul. I don't think this means he looks to his religion when making policy decisions. However, it does imply that Dr.Paul is a little bit more comfortable mixing church and state then some of the atheists on this board would be.

[Anne]

Atheists for Ron Paul!

Agnostics for Ron Paul!

[Anne]

The first is between you and God.

Why do you assume we all believe in your fake God?

[Anne]

"This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state."



This is the one thing I don't agree with him on. He's completely wrong. People like me hate religion because it is irrational and silly. The Bible is a fiction and a bad one at that.

Many people don't put their faith in God OR the state. Why does it have to be one or the other?

[CurtisLow]

Agnostics for Ron Paul!


Roman Catholic for Ron Paul!

[Mindbinder]

This is the one thing I don't agree with him on. He's completely wrong. People like me hate religion because it is irrational and silly. The Bible is a fiction and a bad one at that.

Many people don't put their faith in God OR the state. Why does it have to be one or the other?

Ok, I'm an agnostic as well, however calling religious beliefs irrational and silly is a little bit of a stretch. You need to put yourself into others positions. Most don't read the bible as literal, they use there religion as a source of solace, guidance, and moral direction. Now we both know that we can have all of those without religion, it is just easier for most to have it all written down for them.

[Seadeus]

Some thoughts that may (or may not) help when talking with Christians:

Without Ron Paul, we will eventually (by 2012) have hate crimes that will evolve into restrictions limiting a Christians freedom to quote certain Bible verses. This is how it has happened in some European countries, and it is the natural evolution of such laws. Why Christians in America can't see the handwriting on the wall with "hate" crimes, I don't know. Must be clinging to a "it can't happen here" type of thinking.

Here are also some verses that would require freedom instead of big govt.

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Cr 2:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [be] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh
flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jer 17:5

Isn't expecting government to solve your problems putting faith in men?

[AlexZello]

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think? uh, here's the site in question: Middle East conflict (http://samsonblinded.org/blog)

[DeadtoSin]

This is the one thing I don't agree with him on. He's completely wrong. People like me hate religion because it is irrational and silly. The Bible is a fiction and a bad one at that.

Many people don't put their faith in God OR the state. Why does it have to be one or the other?

You know, the people like you are the ones that are driving people away from the Revolution. I don't bash you because you are an atheist. You need to get the chip off your shoulder and go live your life. You hate religion, thats your choice. Why should you constantly berate people (including me) for believing in something?

[Corydoras]

I thought this thread was about outreach to Christians?

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I'm atheist and I support Ron Paul.

But christians are already mobilized, no? That's why they're christians lol

[DeadtoSin]

I'm atheist and I support Ron Paul.

But christians are already mobilized, no? That's why they're christians lol

Thats where you are wrong my friend. The "Christian Right" is mobilized. They hijacked the Christian message and became the loud minority. They've corrupted it to the point that it makes me sick. When I see Pat Robertson on television talking I simply cringe.

Christians who follow Jesus are trying to find their voice in politics. These kind of Christians are people that you wouldn't hate or think to be close-minded, but loving and caring people. I apologize for the "Christian Right" that hijacked our message. Maybe one day they'll fade out of the picture or at least drop the Christian thing and just call themselves the "Neo-con gay haters party". You know, I think being homosexuality is a sin, but I don't hate the person. I don't think that government should have any say in marriage at all.

I only recognize marriage as an institution of the church. If the government has its own marriage though, I don't care if homosexuals use that institution, but pastors shouldn't feel obligated to marry them in a church. If homosexual marriage is banned, all it does is cause bitterness. It doesn't make a homosexual person more holy to not be allowed to marry, nor does it destroy the sanctity of marriage. (Unless the government tries to ban pastors from denying a homosexual couple a marriage in the chuch.) That would be a violation of Separation of Church and State, and therefore wrong.

Christians already are awake on the issues of abortion. I want them to be awake to the issues of the poor and needy.

[Kade]

Thats where you are wrong my friend. The "Christian Right" is mobilized. They hijacked the Christian message and became the loud minority. They've corrupted it to the point that it makes me sick. When I see Pat Robertson on television talking I simply cringe.

Christians who follow Jesus are trying to find their voice in politics. These kind of Christians are people that you wouldn't hate or think to be close-minded, but loving and caring people. I apologize for the "Christian Right" that hijacked our message. Maybe one day they'll fade out of the picture or at least drop the Christian thing and just call themselves the "Neo-con gay haters party". You know, I think being homosexuality is a sin, but I don't hate the person. I don't think that government should have any say in marriage at all.

I only recognize marriage as an institution of the church. If the government has its own marriage though, I don't care if homosexuals use that institution, but pastors shouldn't feel obligated to marry them in a church. If homosexual marriage is banned, all it does is cause bitterness. It doesn't make a homosexual person more holy to not be allowed to marry, nor does it destroy the sanctity of marriage. (Unless the government tries to ban pastors from denying a homosexual couple a marriage in the chuch.) That would be a violation of Separation of Church and State, and therefore wrong.

Christians already are awake on the issues of abortion. I want them to be awake to the issues of the poor and needy.

If you are someone who believes this way, and fights this way, even as an unbeliever, I would join you, on your side against them. I am not against the Christians, as you have tried to paint me, I'm against the Religious Right. I've always made that clear.

[micahnelson]

Christians already are awake on the issues of abortion. I want them to be awake to the issues of the poor and needy.

We probably should stop looking to unite the "classes" into which we have been divided. We can't break the sheep mentality while simultaneously attempting to herd large groups of people.

Talk to individuals you know. Understand that their backgrounds will have an impact on their ability to understand or accept what you are saying, but don't just assume that we can win by grabbing a sufficient amount of group xyz or race abc.

We can't overcome collectivism with collectivism. Don't misunderstand what im saying as excessive critique. Certainly, techniques to break down mental walls will be common among people who share similar beliefs.

Christians are going to have a hard time accepting there is equal protection under the law even for "sinful" activities. Some atheists will have a problem with parents homeschooling their children. Seniors are going to have a hard time understanding that government isn't always good, and youngsters are going to have to be coaxed into believing it can ever be beneficial.

Lets try to address these issues on a personal one on one level. Thats a big part of how we grew. I would venture to say that your superbowl, christmas and thanksgiving discussions did more than any blimp or tv spot. We can keep that up, maybe not about a man, but certainly about an idea.

One on one, mind by mind. This is what is meant by, no army can stop an idea whose time has come.

[Kade]

We probably should stop looking to unite the "classes" into which we have been divided. We can't break the sheep mentality while simultaneously attempting to herd large groups of people.

Talk to individuals you know. Understand that their backgrounds will have an impact on their ability to understand or accept what you are saying, but don't just assume that we can win by grabbing a sufficient amount of group xyz or race abc.

We can't overcome collectivism with collectivism. Don't misunderstand what im saying as excessive critique. Certainly, techniques to break down mental walls will be common among people who share similar beliefs.

Christians are going to have a hard time accepting there is equal protection under the law even for "sinful" activities. Some atheists will have a problem with parents homeschooling their children. Seniors are going to have a hard time understanding that government isn't always good, and youngsters are going to have to be coaxed into believing it can ever be beneficial.

Lets try to address these issues on a personal one on one level. Thats a big part of how we grew. I would venture to say that your superbowl, christmas and thanksgiving discussions did more than any blimp or tv spot. We can keep that up, maybe not about a man, but certainly about an idea.

One on one, mind by mind. This is what is meant by, no army can stop an idea whose time has come.

Man you are on. +http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/2/4/d245777abca64ece2d5d7ca0d19fddb6.png

I think many people here would benefit from a few civil conversations with people who think differently.

[DeadtoSin]

If you are someone who believes this way, and fights this way, even as an unbeliever, I would join you, on your side against them. I am not against the Christians, as you have tried to paint me, I'm against the Religious Right. I've always made that clear.

Well Kade, I apologize then. Some or your posts were a bit ambiguous, and at least I took them to mean ALL Christians. I'll work on having some thicker skin, it couldn't hurt on a forum where people enjoy their right to speak their minds.

Kade, I could use any help fighting the religious right. You know, I'm sure we disagree on morality, life, and other stuff as well. Thats fine, and I appreciate you telling me that you'd help me in my fight. I really feel disenfranchised because I am a rational Christian person who just wants Christianity to stop being defined like it is now.

The Christian Right has never furthered the cause of Christianity. One cause should be aid to the needy on a governmental and personal level. All it has given me is sex scandals, embarassment, and a sense of outrage that my brothers and sisters wouldn't throw these traitors out of the public light.

[DeadtoSin]

We probably should stop looking to unite the "classes" into which we have been divided. We can't break the sheep mentality while simultaneously attempting to herd large groups of people.

Talk to individuals you know. Understand that their backgrounds will have an impact on their ability to understand or accept what you are saying, but don't just assume that we can win by grabbing a sufficient amount of group xyz or race abc.

We can't overcome collectivism with collectivism. Don't misunderstand what im saying as excessive critique. Certainly, techniques to break down mental walls will be common among people who share similar beliefs.

Christians are going to have a hard time accepting there is equal protection under the law even for "sinful" activities. Some atheists will have a problem with parents homeschooling their children. Seniors are going to have a hard time understanding that government isn't always good, and youngsters are going to have to be coaxed into believing it can ever be beneficial.

Lets try to address these issues on a personal one on one level. Thats a big part of how we grew. I would venture to say that your superbowl, christmas and thanksgiving discussions did more than any blimp or tv spot. We can keep that up, maybe not about a man, but certainly about an idea.

One on one, mind by mind. This is what is meant by, no army can stop an idea whose time has come.

No, I certainly would not take that as critique. I was associating Christians together because this is a forum for Christian outreach. You are correct though, a Christian, just like any other person will not wake up from his slumber by collectivism. However, it DOES help. I was attracted by a Ron Paul video that addressed Christians. I had a man in my life who encouraged me constantly to search out the truth, and that personal push coupled with the Youtube video reaching out to Christians brought me to support Ron Paul.

I've got to say, I am very surprised about how much progress I have made with my Christian brothers and sisters here where I live. I have woken them up and gotten them to thinking. They aren't quite where they should be yet, but they are on their way at least.

[EastWindRain]

Christians should support Ron Paul, as Ron Paul is a real Christian not like the NeoCons who simply claim to be Christian to sucker the gullible Christian voters into voting for them. Most Christians are in the dark and don't do their homework as to where the NeoCon's loyalties lie. The NeoCons loyalties lie with fake Israel and not with Christians or Christianity. Ron Paul's loyalties are with Christians and not with fake Israel. Once again if you are Christian you should support Ron Paul.

[Kade]

I to am a Christian, and I am sickened at what my Pastor's never taught me. The Christian community really needs to become aware of the extremely important issues raised in the following videos and speeches. Shame on the church for not teaching its flock the truth about Zionism.

Using Freedom Of Speech through the internet we must all expose the evils of Zionism while there is still time. Zionists HATE the internet for they don't yet control it.

Watch the following videos and broadcasts. This is just for starters:


http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa43/EastWindRain/AIPACImage.jpg http://www.just-international.org/commentary/bush_israel_flag%202.jpg
AIPAC: American Israel Public Affairs Committee

http://www.biblestudysite.com/freedman2.jpg Former Zionist operative and Jewish defector Benjamin Freedman is shown here with a 1960 edition of the newspaper that was the primary venue for his writings after WWII, Common Sense.

A MUST LISTEN TO Youtube broadcast: Former Zionist Insider Benjamin Freedman Speaks YouTube Parts 1-11


Some Sick and Insane Teachings of the Talmud. There are many more.

Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix with honey and eat it.

Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.

Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

From The Jewish Encyclopedia: "Khazars, a non-Semitic, Asiatic, Mongolian tribal nation who emigrated into Eastern Europe about the first century, who were converted as an entire nation to Judaism in the seventh century by the expanding Russian nation which absorbed the entire Khazar population, and who account for the presence in Eastern Europe of the great numbers of Yiddish-speaking Jews in Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Galatia, Besserabia and Rumania."

Therefore Jews are not Semitic people, bur are imposter's, (who have no right to the holy land) who have committed Identity Theft on a MASSIVE Scale, and are using the Christian Religion to make the gullible Christians of the world believe that the creation of Israel is biblical prophesy coming true. It is all an evil plot to destroy Western Civilization and bring it under Talmudic control and law. (Not Biblical law. No more 10 commandments or Christmas as they are "Offensive" to Zionists.) Wake up people and defend your own heritage and freedoms before we are hauled off to the Gulags or death camps (Like they did to Russia) which have already built in America by FEMA!



What the... chill dude. Chill.

[EastWindRain]

Attention Christians:

I was raised Christian, and I am sickened at what my Pastor's never taught me. The Christian community really needs to become aware of the extremely important issues raised in the following videos and speeches. Shame on the church for not teaching its flock the truth about Zionism.

Using Freedom Of Speech through the internet we must all expose the evils of Zionism while there is still time. Zionists HATE the internet for they don't yet control it.

Watch the following videos and broadcasts. This is just for starters:

http://www.gtr5.com/picts/side.jpg http://www.gtr5.com/picts/libmemorial.gif http://www.gtr5.com/picts/sidebar.jpg

Watch the video "Loss of Liberty" (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7267134620652018859) and learn how "God's Chosen" murdered 34 Americans
www.ussliberty.org
www.planetquo.com


***Must See Videos and Broadcasts that expose how Zionism has perverted Christianity into the evil Judeo-Christianity***

Attention: Download, burn, and prepare to re-upload all of this material as the Zionists constantly remove this Truth telling media for they fear a massive awakening by the people.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa43/EastWindRain/AIPACImage.jpg http://www.just-international.org/commentary/bush_israel_flag%202.jpg
AIPAC: American Israel Public Affairs Committee

http://www.biblestudysite.com/freedman2.jpg Former Zionist operative and Jewish defector Benjamin Freedman is shown here with a 1960 edition of the newspaper that was the primary venue for his writings after WWII, Common Sense.

A MUST LISTEN TO Youtube broadcast: Former Zionist Insider Benjamin Freedman Speaks YouTube Parts 1-4
Intro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gdxBsTxVsU&feature=related), 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry37mKMh04U&feature=related), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLtoC5Eg0w&feature=related), 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_cXTm6X8Fw&feature=related), 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx00Q_u8SbM&feature=related)

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa43/EastWindRain/MyronCFagan.jpg
Myron C. Fagan

And this MUST LISTEN To YouTube broadcast: Famous Historian and Playwright Myron C. Fagan’s Council On Foreign Relations & Illuminati YouTube Parts 1-16

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJXTm6lF7ow), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udeqCX8jVN8&feature=related=), 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idH-KkBUap0&feature=related), 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJb7s4rmeXc&feature=related), 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEvhNnsqzjQ&feature=related), 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoEK5q_zalw&feature=related), 7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srMQxGRTk3U&feature=related), 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_w8lYvGauQ&feature=related), 9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umchq7a4VmM&feature=related), 10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frLFUEiGc2I&feature=related), 11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrRtXiLon_Y&feature=related), 12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVfEEqILSvs&feature=related), 13 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_fmzfsuq7Y&feature=related), 14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUS0zHQXNUQ&feature=related), 15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4FlRFp7P3o&feature=related), 16 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhF6xixGQcU&feature=related)

Welcome To The Must See Video Collection for Christians trying to understand Zionism

Welcome. Below are several videos which will help you see the BIG picture as to WHY our Country is under attack. Please spread these videos to all your friends, family, and peers. These videos are working and are helping to change the world into a better place like it was before the Zionist traitorous interference, which is designed to destroy Western culture, heritage, and pride in our selves, while bringing the world under complete control of the Evil Zionists One World Government. Remember you can enlarge the video to fit your whole screen by clicking on the ▼button when viewing.

1. Loss of Liberty
www.video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7267134620652018859

2. Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565

3. Hate Laws: Making Criminals of Christians
Part 1 www.video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7217700265038533779
Part 2 www.video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5231077186980163254

4. Why The Mid-East Bleeds
www.video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7713806100545252588

5. The Other Israel
www.video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6657600254881054584

6. Kosher Food Tax Scam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiQ95hFaR9I

7. Deir Yassin Remembered Duration 33 minutes
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=341600202419569830

8. Not so cool facts about Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYJxeEVa_0M

9. Zionist John Hagee promoting the Terrorist State Of Israel This is the root cause that is destroying Christianity. The Christian Church has been hi-jacked by Judaism which hates Christianity!!! (Just look at what they preach in their holy book called “The Talmud”. ( http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html)) Christianity has now been taken over by its enemies and turned into something which it originally opposed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exdsB5D1r7Y

10. Audio Broadcast: "Should Christians Support Israel?"
Duration 39 minutes. Download or stream it here (http://www.davidduke.com/mp3/televangelistsfortheantichrist01252003.mp3)


The Zionists don't believe in "The Bible" they believe in their bible called "The Talmud". Here are some quotes from their holy Talmud which should shock every Christian.

Some Sick and Insane Teachings of the Talmud. (There are many more.)

Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix with honey and eat it.

Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.

Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Insults Against Blessed Mary

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Gloats over Christ Dying Young

A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

Jesus in the Talmud:

Horrible Blasphemies Against Jesus Christ

While it is the standard disinformation practice of apologists for the Talmud to deny that it contains any scurrilous references to Jesus Christ, certain Orthodox Jewish organizations are more forthcoming and admit that the Talmud not only mentions Jesus but disparages him (as a sorcerer and a demented sex freak). These orthodox Jewish organizations make this admission perhaps out of the belief that Jewish supremacy is so well-established in the modern world that they need not concern themselves with adverse reactions.

For example, on the website of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch group--one of the largest in the world--we find the following statement, complete with Talmudic citations:

"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene':

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

End quote from http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm (Lubavitch website) June 20, 2000.

[Note: we have printed and preserved in our files a hard copy of this statement from the Lubavitch"Noah's Covenant Website," as it appeared on their website at http://www.noahide.com on June 20, 2000, in the event that denials are later issued and the statement itself suppressed].

Let us examine further some of these anti-Christ Talmud passages:

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."

Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery: "It is taught that on the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry...He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or condone."

From The Jewish Encyclopedia: "Khazars, a non-Semitic, Asiatic, Mongolian tribal nation who emigrated into Eastern Europe about the first century, who were converted as an entire nation to Judaism in the seventh century by the expanding Russian nation which absorbed the entire Khazar population, and who account for the presence in Eastern Europe of the great numbers of Yiddish-speaking Jews in Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Galatia, Besserabia and Rumania." (More info below)
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jews.htm


Therefore Jews are not Semitic people, bur are imposter's, (who have no right to the holy land) who have committed Identity Theft on a MASSIVE Scale, and are using the Christian Religion to make the gullible Christians of the world believe that the creation of Israel is biblical prophesy coming true. It is all an evil plot to destroy Western Civilization and bring it under Talmudic control and law. (Not Biblical law. No more 10 commandments or Christmas as they are "Offensive" to Zionists.) Wake up people and defend your own heritage and freedoms before we are hauled off to the Gulags or death camps (Like they did to Russia) which have already been built in America by FEMA!

Below is a picture of where Ashkenazi Jews are from. They are not from Israel!!! They are not descended from Abraham!!! They have no claim to the holy land as they are Khazars from Khazaria.

http://www.khazaria.com/images/khazaria.gif

The bottom line is the people who currently call themselves Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from Abraham. They are imposter's who have committed identity theft. They are Mongolian/Turks who simply converted to Judaism around 840 AD. They have no legitimate claim to the holy land and they HATE Christianity. Any Christian who supports the terrorist state of fake Israel (not the real Israel spoken of in the bible) is a brainwashed fool lead astray by their pastors who sold out to the Zionists by taking a pay off called the 501c3 Tax Exempt status form. Which allows the church to keep the money collected tax free if they preach only certain sermons. Every Christian should be flipping mad and should now have a desire to get to the bottom of Zionism. And if it is found that Zionism runs contrary to Christianity, then Zionism should be removed from Christian society permanently. We live in a Christian nation. Screw all people, in North America, who think Christmas is "Offensive". Remember "Thou Shalt have no other God's before me". Exodus 20:3

Ron Paul is the only Presidential Candidate who win end all this garbage and treason.