What can we do?

[HailColumbia]

Hey guys.

I guess you could say I'm a recent convert to Ron Paul. Two friends of mine in college were big fans of him while I was always a hardline Republican. To be honest, I thought Dr. Paul was a nutcase when I first heard him speak, and I held this opinion for quite some time.

As the primary season wore on and I started listen to him more, I started to boil down to liking Huckabee and Paul because I felt like they both actually meant what they said, and I felt like they were both principled people. I kind of started to fall out of step with Huckabee and started listening to what Ron Paul had to say.

I'm reading the Revolution right now, and its really changing my political ideas. I'm going to vote for McCain in November if there's no candidate like Paul that has any hope (which would be an impossibly long shot at this stage), but thats because I'm voting against Obama rather than supporting McCain.

So, really, my question is this. As a new person around this community, what can we do to further Ron Paul's message? It seems obvious that the Republican party is not going to listen to his brand of conservatism, and all of the other candidates sans Huckabee seemed openly hostile towards him, so there's no real chance of a VP slot.

Also, has he said if he'll run again in 2012?

[RickyJ]

Voting for McCain when you could vote for Baldwin is a mistake. You do know of Chuck Baldwin don't you? No, he won't win, but we are going to lose no matter which establishment candidate wins, Obama or McCain. They are both the same on issues despite the fact the MSM tries to portray them as being different. They both lie and will do what their handlers tell them to do once in office. Don't the play the lesser of two evils game anymore.

[Danke]

Join the Campaign for Liberty as a start.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

[HailColumbia]

Join the Campaign for Liberty as a start.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

I have done so.


Voting for McCain when you could vote for Baldwin is a mistake. You do know of Chuck Baldwin don't you? No, he won't win, but we are going to lose no matter which establishment candidate wins, Obama or McCain. They are both the same on issues despite the fact the MSM tries to portray them as being different. They both lie and will do what their handlers tell them to do once in office. Don't the play the lesser of two evils game anymore.

I both agree and disagree with you. I have considered the prospect of voting for third party, and have come to the conclusion that throwing away my vote is less likely to change anything than voting against something I disagree with. Do I think McCain will fix the world? No, but I think he'll do a good deal better than Obama.

The time to change presidential politics is, I believe, during the primaries. If I vote for a third party candidate that has no chance in hades, what has the country gained? Nothing has changed because of my vote.

[Original_Intent]

Here's why your thinking is wrong on McCain.

Yes in the short term, McCain is marginally better than Obama. Maybe even a lot better.

In the long term, a McCain win is worse for this country than an Obama win. Here's why:

1. If McCain wins, the chances of bringing the Republican Party back to it's principles within the next 3 election cycles is almost zero. A McCain defeat, especially with decent showings by conservative third party candidates will send a message to the GOP that the conservative base will no longer play the "lesser of two evils" game.

2. If McCain wins, this will be seen as approval for the Bush status quo.

3. If McCain wins, many of his left of center views such as amnesty for illegals will be made law without a fight. Republicans will be whipped into line to "support the president" and Democrats may put up token fights but will be giggling in their caucuses to implement his policies.

Think of the alternative: Obama will get elected and at least he will be fought tooth and nail by whatever Republicans remain in Congress - a number that could go up significantly in 2010 after the country has had two years of "change".

4. Voting on the basis of "being against the other guy more" is a vote based on fear. In Obama's case the fear may be justified. I am not voting third party to get Obama elected, I am voting third party because my conscience dictates that I do so, that I find the man who I feel is best qualified and honorable enough to lead this country and give that man my support.

Staying at home is not an option. Casting a "feel good" vote for Ron Paul that will not be counted is not an option. And, for me, voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. I will never "hold my nose" and vote for anyone.

[Danke]

Here's why your thinking is wrong on McCain.

Yes in the short term, McCain is marginally better than Obama. Maybe even a lot better.

In the long term, a McCain win is worse for this country than an Obama win. Here's why:

1. If McCain wins, the chances of bringing the Republican Party back to it's principles within the next 3 election cycles is almost zero. A McCain defeat, especially with decent showings by conservative third party candidates will send a message to the GOP that the conservative base will no longer play the "lesser of two evils" game.

2. If McCain wins, this will be seen as approval for the Bush status quo.

3. If McCain wins, many of his left of center views such as amnesty for illegals will be made law without a fight. Republicans will be whipped into line to "support the president" and Democrats may put up token fights but will be giggling in their caucuses to implement his policies.

Think of the alternative: Obama will get elected and at least he will be fought tooth and nail by whatever Republicans remain in Congress - a number that could go up significantly in 2010 after the country has had two years of "change".

4. Voting on the basis of "being against the other guy more" is a vote based on fear. In Obama's case the fear may be justified. I am not voting third party to get Obama elected, I am voting third party because my conscience dictates that I do so, that I find the man who I feel is best qualified and honorable enough to lead this country and give that man my support.

Staying at home is not an option. Casting a "feel good" vote for Ron Paul that will not be counted is not an option. And, for me, voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. I will never "hold my nose" and vote for anyone.

Well said.

[Imperial]

Obama in the White House is worse than McCain for sure. But think about this: Generally, with McCain, you are maintaining the status quo. With Obama, the situation is worse, but either way the boom and bust cycle is in place and foreign war threatens to grow larger.

Meanwhile, Congress is threatened by the Democrats.

So, assume the Republicans will lose Congress, in the Senate and House. However, if we can get at least 1 or 2 Ron Paul Republicans in office, and the Republicans lose out in the rest of Congress, our ideas can become more viable. We can trumpet ourselves as true Republicans of the "Big Tent".

However, all this will mean nothing if McCain is in the White House. Republicans will kow-tow to his policies, or at least enough to make whatever we do mean nothing.

However, with Obama in the presidency, the Republicans will be in shambles. We will have an opportunity to shape the Republicans. Now, I don't mean a Ron Paul Republican party, but a party that at least gives us a legitimate chance.

[HailColumbia]

You guys make good points, and you've certainly put my surety of vote less at ease. I'm really not sure what I'll do come November, but you've certainly given me food for thought.

Has Paul said if he's going to run again in 2012? Also, what will the significance be of his delegates at the convention?

[revolutionman]

*Edit* i wrote this in response to the original post and did not read the entire thread

I have noticed that your still carrying some old warn out luggage with you.

You have one bag in particular, the one that contains your belief that McCain is any better than Obama, that looks particularly heavy and worn out.

Forget about red suitcases or blue suitcases, its not about the suitcase, its all about the content. if both bags are weighted down with big government spending, more taxation, more war, etc, then they both have the same value.

There is Chuck Baldwin, which is a great way to vote if your a hardline Christian. there is Bob Barr, if your looking for a libertarian angle with a bit of a neo con streak, and then there is the ever popular "Fk everyone! I'm writing in Ron Paul!" initiative. Which is a great way to go if write ins are an option in your state.

the operating theory is that a vote for any 3rd party is a message to the status quo that your sick of their sht. Voting for Mccain to spite Obama, thats the thought process of almost every neo con voter this election season. thats what they want you to do, and thats what they expect you to do as a good little Republican. that thought process plays into their hand. I'd advise against that.

if you take one thing away from my post let it be this. McObama is a two headed monster running against itself. there is little if any difference on how either one will effect the lives and liberty of the American people. the only difference is how each one will do it.

Who the hell cares where we go to war?? thats a bogus non issue presented to you by the main stream media to keep your focus on those two jackasses and off 3rd parties, and the TRUTH about the US Government and world affairs.

[ForWhichItStood]

I both agree and disagree with you. I have considered the prospect of voting for third party, and have come to the conclusion that throwing away my vote is less likely to change anything than voting against something I disagree with.

The time to change presidential politics is, I believe, during the primaries. If I vote for a third party candidate that has no chance in hades, what has the country gained? Nothing has changed because of my vote.

I used to think the same way. However, I've encountered many, many people who have this mindset. They want to vote for a more libertarian candidate (or one who supports their ideals), but they feel they're throwing away their vote. I've come to the conclusion that the only way to move to a better candidate is to "throw away" our votes. Once enough people "throw away" their votes we'll have an honest shot at the White House; once we have this opportunity, those who threw away their votes never threw away their votes; rather, they were some of the first people to usher in the necessarily political change.

Personally, I'm voting for Bob Barr. I'd much rather vote for Ron Paul, but that isn't an option. Essentially, I've investing/voting for a more long-term, gradual change rather than a short term antidote.

[mediahasyou]

Bob Barr is polling in double diggits in some parts of the country.

Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin are very close to Ron Paul's values.

Reconsider a third party: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw1Aji8FzJc

[rdupuy11]

"I'm a recent convert to Ron Paul."

What does this even mean? You think Ron Paul is a Jesus like figure in your life?

There's no such thing as being a convert to "Ron Paul" he's not running a religion.

[rdupuy11]

Bob Barr is polling in double diggits in some parts of the country.

Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin are very close to Ron Paul's values.

Reconsider a third party: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw1Aji8FzJc


Chuck Baldwin on immigration:

And speaking of illegal immigration, as President, I would enforce our visa rules. This means anyone who overstays their visa or otherwise violates U.S. law is immediately deported. There would be no "path to citizenship" given to any illegal alien. That means no amnesty. Not in any shape, manner, or form.
-------------------------

That may sound really great, except he's taken a position on a subject that he's never studied and knows nothing about.

I know about this subject, because while I am a U.S. citizen, my daughter was born in Ukraine and is in the process, since age 2 of being naturalized.

INS, now called USCIS, has harassed me for over 6 years. They lose paperwork, they don't process anything on time, they print green cards with wrong dates.

And yes, whenever a deadline passes your 2 year old girl (now 8) becomes 'out of status'. Thats the person Chuck Baldwin would immediately deport, without amnesy, no path to citizenship for the DAUGHTER OF AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AGE 8, NOT IN ANY SHAPE MANNER OR FORM.

------------------------

but you say thats on outlier, what he really mean was immigrants from Mexico.
Guess what, its not an outlier. Anyone knows this subject, knows that its not.

Another example. A mexican woman meets an american business in 1950. They fall in love, get married.
He brings her to the United States. They have children. Those children have children.
In 2005 the husband dies. Grandma, has been living in the United States for over 55 years.
All her children, born here, are American citizens. She was a housewife her entire life.
Husband dead...he never filled out any paperwork on her. She never worked.

Chuck Baldwin would deport her to mexico, where she has no home, no family living at all.
Never worked...he deports grandma to mexico, NO EXCEPTION, NO AMNESTY, PERIOD.

He's a rigid, mean spirited, ultraconservative....Chuck Baldwin is a dangerous man that has no association with Libertarian values at all.

[rdupuy11]

Korea.

A baby is born to an american soldier, and to a korean woman.
The soldier doesn't even know the woman is pregnant. When his deployment is over he goes home.

Half american babies are treated very badly in Korea in those years, the mother gives up the baby for adoption.

An american couple adopts that baby.

The baby gets a social security number, is given an american name, is raised as an american. but in those days, 40 years ago, INS was not strict on enforcing rules.

This child is raised entirely as an american, since the age of 1 month old.
He goes to college, gets married, has 3 kids.

Then one day he applies for a government job, and to his utter shock and surprise, he discovers he's not an american citizen.

He goes to INS and tries to ask for citizenship, and they tell him, he's been illegal in this country for over 1 year (since birth is over 1 year)...and has to go to Korea for 10 years, before he can apply for a k-1, marriage based VISA.

10 years, he hasn't been to Korea since he was 1 month old. He doesn't speak a single word of Korean. He has a house, a wife, and children dependent upon his income or they will be impoverished and lose everything.

Chuck Baldwin says, NO EXCEPTIONS, NO AMNESTY, NOT EVER NOT EVER.

the neocons here, love this. But it isn't a libertarian value. Not it really isn't.