My College Choices/Your Opinion

[tribute_13]

HI, I'm Mike. I'm 16 and I'm currently in a dual-enrollment program in Smithfield, NC. I go to Johnston County Middle College, a High School on a college campus. I am a full-time college student and legally a high school student. My credit hours I receive for completing college courses get translated to HS Credits and is filtered into my GPA. I'm a senior this year and will graduate this year a full year and a half early. I have not taken the SAT yet as I'm still wondering whether I should take the ACT, SAT, or Both. I am first in my class with a 4.43 GPA. I have already received the number of credits required to graduate and I by graduation I will be two classes short of an associates degree. I have been regularly receiving emails from Harvard, Cornell, and Northwestern University (Which I have no idea where NWU is)

I want to Major in either science or politics but I can't make up my mind. I have been really interested in String Theory and Theoretical Physics but this recent presidential race has really intrigued me and gotten me interested in politics. I know you don't necessarily need a degree to run for local office but I still want to be educated in that matter. I really want to go to Cornell because they have a GREAT physics program but ever since I was little I wanted to go Harvard to be a lawyer (I know... gross) but I don't know.. it's confusing and it's jumped out at me these last two months.

What school do you recommend and do you think I have a chance in hell at getting into an Ivy League school?

[0zzy]

I HATE YOU
AHHHHHHH.

But seriously good for you. I took some dual-credit classes but didn't have all my classes like that, which I did (AP maybe), but whatever. I'm going to community college...yay? :[

As for which Ivy League to go to, pshh I have no idea. Isn't MIT good for physics? :o I think Harvard or Standford have good political programs, or at least big ones.

I dono tho. :O I wish there was a libertarian school.

[tribute_13]

I have thought about MIT also. But my first impression of them was not very good. They sent me a booklet shaped like a fortune teller. It was annoying kind of. They had student testimonials and nothing about their programs or anything. Everytime I hear about a breakthrough made by MIT scientists it seems they just let that data rot away somewhere and never be applied to anything. Like that recent WiTricity thing they came up with. I heard one thing about it and then nothing else. I can't even find it on their site.

Plus, Cornell has a Particle Accelerator :D

[bucfish]

Hmmm. Just remember these places are brainwashing institutes. They for the most part deny reason and logic. And preach of the orgy of self sacrifice.
But go IVY league it makes a good impression. Maybe when you get their you can get a Liberty group going.

[slacker921]

Mike - keep in mind that the Ivy league schools are not cheap. Look at the cost of each before going too far down that path. You'll either need to be very wealthy, willing to take on a huge amount of debt, or have something they're willing to give you a scholarship for...
Look in state. NC has some great schools.. Carolina, Duke, Wake Forest, Davidson, Wingate, ECU, etc.. will all be much more affordable to you than the ivy league schools because you get an "in state" tuition break. Start visiting them and talking to the students and professors. Find out if your classes will be taught by the professors or by grad students. Find out what the class size is for the classes you're interested in (are there 200 in the chemistry class? .. or 30?). Every school is different so find the one that fits your personality. Don't just go because of the name.
Undergrad isn't as important if you're going to go for a masters or phd.. i.e. you could do undergrad at Carolina then go on to Harvard.. and if you go to a smaller school then chances are much greater that you'll go on a free ride and come away with no debt. Having $100,000 of debt when you graduate from college is not an easy thing to dig out from under.

[tribute_13]

Mike - keep in mind that the Ivy league schools are not cheap. Look at the cost of each before going too far down that path. You'll either need to be very wealthy, willing to take on a huge amount of debt, or have something they're willing to give you a scholarship for...
Look in state. NC has some great schools.. Carolina, Duke, Wake Forest, Davidson, Wingate, ECU, etc.. will all be much more affordable to you than the ivy league schools because you get an "in state" tuition break. Start visiting them and talking to the students and professors. Find out if your classes will be taught by the professors or by grad students. Find out what the class size is for the classes you're interested in (are there 200 in the chemistry class? .. or 30?). Every school is different so find the one that fits your personality. Don't just go because of the name.
Undergrad isn't as important if you're going to go for a masters or phd.. i.e. you could do undergrad at Carolina then go on to Harvard.. and if you go to a smaller school then chances are much greater that you'll go on a free ride and come away with no debt. Having $100,000 of debt when you graduate from college is not an easy thing to dig out from under.

I have never wanted to go to a state school. Never appealed to me. I can't see myself going to Duke, no offense to any alumni, but I feel I deserve a lot more than that. The least I can get is Ivy League. I really don't care about the cost. Tuition for Cornell and Harvard both run about $50,120. I currently fall under the $0 income category. I eat, breathe, and shit school. It's all I have and frankly I won't settle for less.

[Conza88]

If you go to an Ivy league school... you're paying for the reputation, not the quality of education.

You can do a masters and have a PHD in economics... worth $-00,000's of dollars... and I know more about whats happening in this world, causality etc - obtained from the entire media section at mises.org for FREE..

Yeaaah sucks to be a fool... but what sucks worse is paying hundred of thousands of dollars to be a fool ;)

If you choose to go into politics - it's my opinion, you'll be wasting your life. It would really seem like a loss to humanity if you did imo..

Ron Paul didn't start out in politics - so don't you do it either... he became a DR.. and did austrian economics on the side...

My suggestion you follow what you love; just not politics.. any clown and his 3 monkeys can run eventually... I say go get a Nobel Peace Prize or whatever they call it these days a Laurette and remain the only non retarded academic out there..

Maths / science / numbers / physics - are a damn lot harder to politicize... so stick to those areas if you want to pay for the reputation...

If you do politics - I may just have to hunt you down and kill you... ;)

[tribute_13]

If you go to an Ivy league school... you're paying for the reputation, not the quality of education.

You can do a masters and have a PHD in economics... worth $-00,000's of dollars... and I know more about whats happening in this world, causality etc - obtained from the entire media section at mises.org for FREE..

Yeaaah sucks to be a fool... but what sucks worse is paying hundred of thousands of dollars to be a fool ;)

If you choose to go into politics - it's my opinion, you'll be wasting your life. It would really seem like a loss to humanity if you did imo..

Ron Paul didn't start out in politics - so don't you do it either... he became a DR.. and did austrian economics on the side...

My suggestion you follow what you love; just not politics.. any clown and his 3 monkeys can run eventually... I say go get a Nobel Peace Prize or whatever they call it these days a Laurette and remain the only non retarded academic out there..

Maths / science / numbers / physics - are a damn lot harder to politicize... so stick to those areas if you want to pay for the reputation...

If you do politics - I may just have to hunt you down and kill you... ;)

Thanks for posting :D

[muzzled dogg]

go to the mises institute

[yongrel]

Okay... as someone who went through this whole process not too long ago and came out ok, here is my input.

First off, take the SAT. It's easier to study for, and if you know your stuff (which it looks like ya do) you'll do fine. The ACT is useful primarily with Western states, but I don't know of a single school that accepts only the ACT. Both tests suck to take, so just take one. The SAT is something like a 5 hour long test starting at 8 on a Saturday morning. Bleck.

As far as schools go, don't assume automatically that you can get into Harvard and whatnot because they send ya stuff. I got sent stuff by NYU and Stanford way back when, and well, that just wasn't happening. The first thing you have to know about the admissions process is that it is a cash cow for schools. If memory serves, Harvard's application is $80. If they spend 30-40 bucks on mailings and that gets you to apply, then they just made a quick 40 dollars. The Ivy Leagues have something like an average acceptance rate of 13%. No one's a sure thing if their last name isn't Kennedy.

So here's my suggestion: The University of Chicago. I don't know how interested you are in economics, but since you're a Ron Paul supporter, I assume you're at least a fiscal conservative even if you don't have a more defined philosophy yet. The University of Chicago is home to some of the greatest free market minds of today. You would get to take classes from guys like Steven Levitt (author of Freakonomics). It's really cool. UoC is essentially an Iny League school in the midwest, complete with aged building covered in creeping vines. The Political Science program their is fantastic, and it will definitely be more conservative than your typical college.

If you're interested in science, physics especially, you'll be pleased to know that the University of Chicago is also home to the Enrico Fermi lab, named in honor of the first man to split the atom. UoC is one of the top theoretical and experimental physics programs in the country, and there is a ton of research money pumped into the school. Even as an undergrad, you would have the opportunity to work in a research setting with some of the best minds in the field. Pretty cool.

Also, UoC encourages double majors, and you certainly seem up to the workload, so there's no need for you to decide between science and politics. Chicago emphasizes an idea called "The Life of the Mind" which essentially means that they want you to be a well-rounded student. Your first two years at the school will include what is essentially a general education curriculum on steroids. They have everyone in the school take classes on Western Philosophy, Calculus, Poetry, etc. Everyone reads Thucydides and Plato together. It's pretty spiffy.

Chicago also has a reputation for being more than a bit nerdy, which may or may not suit you. It's not a school where you go to have wild and crazy parties every day of the week. Some students who were disappointed with the absence of drunk and rowdy shindigs call UoC the place "where fun goes to die." If you went to University of Chicago, you'd be going there to learn how to think, not how to drink. I don't know you, so I can't say anything about whether or not it would suit you.

Back in the day, I applied to University of Chicago hoping that my test scores and essays plus extracurriculars would counterbalance my GPA. I dunno if they still have it, but when I applied they had the Uncommon Application. Terrible. Took me forever to complete. 4 essays on strange and esoteric subjects, plus a mind-numbing procedural thingy.

My reason for applying was that I thought it would be really cool to go to class in a room where FA Hayek once lectured, or where Milton Friedman delivered his lessons. It's good to be in an academic environment where the free market and small government are held as good and noble, as opposed to the usual college perception.

So to make a very long story short: You have the grades for the top schools in the nation, but nothing is a shoe-in. To get into the very top tier of schools, it's not enough to have great grades and test scores. You also have to have great extracurricular activities, application essays, etc. With your interests, University of Chicago seems like a fit for you in my mind, and you would have a very good shot at getting in. They have some of the best programs in the nation, with outstanding programs in the sciences, as well as the social sciences. Also, they have one of the best college libraries I've ever seen. Not to mention they're about 10-15k cheaper than the Ivy League. It's hard to go wrong with UoC.

Also, in case I didn't make it clear... University of Chicago rejected me, which is all the more reason to go there.

University of Chicago links:
http://www.uchicago.edu/
http://www.uchicago.edu/admissions/

General College links:
http://www.collegeboard.com/
http://princetonreview.com/college-education.aspx?uidbadge=

[yongrel]

Mike - keep in mind that the Ivy league schools are not cheap. Look at the cost of each before going too far down that path. You'll either need to be very wealthy, willing to take on a huge amount of debt, or have something they're willing to give you a scholarship for...
Look in state. NC has some great schools.. Carolina, Duke, Wake Forest, Davidson, Wingate, ECU, etc.. will all be much more affordable to you than the ivy league schools because you get an "in state" tuition break. Start visiting them and talking to the students and professors. Find out if your classes will be taught by the professors or by grad students. Find out what the class size is for the classes you're interested in (are there 200 in the chemistry class? .. or 30?). Every school is different so find the one that fits your personality. Don't just go because of the name.
Undergrad isn't as important if you're going to go for a masters or phd.. i.e. you could do undergrad at Carolina then go on to Harvard.. and if you go to a smaller school then chances are much greater that you'll go on a free ride and come away with no debt. Having $100,000 of debt when you graduate from college is not an easy thing to dig out from under.

That's actually not necessarily true about the Ivies. They have such enormous endowments that they are actually very generous with merit scholarships and need-based aide. Harvard and Yale actually both cap the student contributions at 10% of annual income, so the child of parents earning 100k a year would only have to pay 10k. It's pretty cool. According to US News, Princeton costs the average student 16k per annum for all expenses, which is a whole helluva lot cheaper than what I'm paying now.

[yongrel]

I can't see myself going to Duke, no offense to any alumni, but I feel I deserve a lot more than that. The least I can get is Ivy League. I really don't care about the cost.

Getting tunnel vision on the Ivy League is a mistake, I think. It'll cause you to miss a lot of great schools that might fit you better. Remember, you're not just deciding what school's name is going to be on your degree; you're also choosing where you're going to spend the next 4 years of your life. Duke is a fantastic school, and it certainly won't hold you back. There are a ton of schools not considered Ivies that are brilliant choices.

Also, if you ever plan on leaving the East Coast, the Ivies don't carry as much weight, especially with lay people. In Washington State, the University of Washington is more prestigious than Cornell or Dartmouth. Just something to keep in mind.

[No1ButPaul08]

First of all, good luck at getting into the school of your choice. You seem to be well qualified, but even then, you never know, especially with the top schools.

Science>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Politics

Learn science in school, politics on your own.

[amy31416]

I second yongrel's choice of the University of Chicago. Given my own bias, I recommend going into science. Physics is not an occupation that will make you filthy rich (in all likelihood), but you will find a job (probably in academia, gov't or research) with a Ph.D in it. Go for the gusto with particle physics, and audit the classes in economics, politics and policy as you can, or get minors in those disciplines. As I've said many times, you can have an undergrad degree in science, even a Ph.D, and you can go on to any other discipline you want for the most part with very little effort. After going through the rigors of a degree in a hard science, most everything else seems like a cakewalk, except for people, science will NOT help you learn how to deal with a variety of people as other disciplines may. So try not to just hang out with other people in science, and don't look down on other people who aren't in science.

The University of Chicago has the best of both worlds and it's a great city to live in. Clean, friendly and they don't drive like retards there. Boston, while MIT is a great school and I do like the city, they just don't have the great balance in education like the U of C does. I was also rejected by the U of C and MIT, which is okay because I couldn't afford it anyways.

A good friend of mine who's entire family was Ivy League grads went to the University of Pennsylvania simply due to pressure and the notion that it was "better" and she had to. She hated it and ended up transferring to Allegheny College, where she was the valedictorian and had a perfect GPA. She loved it there and her family was okay with it (after a while.)

Also ask yourself if you're a big-city type, that part can be overwhelming at first, as I found out.

By the way, it really sounds like you have your shit together for a 16yr old, I was only about 1/10th of where you are when I was 16--so kudos to you on that.

[yongrel]

By the way, it really sounds like you have your shit together for a 16yr old, I was only about 1/10th of where you are when I was 16--so kudos to you on that.

Agreed. Being irresponsible at 16 (and 15, and 17, etc) is a big reason why I'm not in a better position now. I could have done worse, but I could have done a lot better.

[mtmedlin]

U of Chi is a great school but if your up for getting some culture along with education, you may also apply for University of London. GREAT school, especially for econ, law, history and other social sciences.

In all heart felt honesty, go for the science degree. I have a political science degree and have worked on some pretty big named campaigns (Jeb Bush for one....dont judge, I was young and experimental...ya know) the social science field is a hard one and very few jobs. Lawyers are a dime a dozen. I know at least 3 in Orlando alone who graduated in the top 1% of their class in Highschool and tops at their college. They are all constantly scratching for work (one isnt but that is because he does contract law in the basement of a firm, doing nearly 80 hours a week, in the dark and I am pretty certain he is damn near suicidal)

Do the world a favor, be a scientist. Most of the Ivy league are very cheap, unless your parents are rich. Yes, you are paying for the name but who cares? People hire because of that name. I got passed over for a campaign job because I wasnt I.L. and my candidate won. Cornell is a great school, so is NW (its just outside of Chicago - which is a great town - awesome food, good art and culture but cold as hell)
Have a major in science and a minor in social science. You can always get your BA in Science and then your masters in Law. this way you can defend yourself for cloning Ron Paul and saving the future!

[yongrel]

U of Chi is a great school but if your up for getting some culture along with education, you may also apply for University of London. GREAT school, especially for econ, law, history and other social sciences.

In all heart felt honesty, go for the science degree. I have a political science degree and have worked on some pretty big named campaigns (Jeb Bush for one....dont judge, I was young and experimental...ya know) the social science field is a hard one and very few jobs. Lawyers are a dime a dozen. I know at least 3 in Orlando alone who graduated in the top 1% of their class in Highschool and tops at their college. They are all constantly scratching for work (one isnt but that is because he does contract law in the basement of a firm, doing nearly 80 hours a week, in the dark and I am pretty certain he is damn near suicidal)

Do the world a favor, be a scientist. Most of the Ivy league are very cheap, unless your parents are rich. Yes, you are paying for the name but who cares? People hire because of that name. I got passed over for a campaign job because I wasnt I.L. and my candidate won. Cornell is a great school, so is NW (its just outside of Chicago - which is a great town - awesome food, good art and culture but cold as hell)
Have a major in science and a minor in social science. You can always get your BA in Science and then your masters in Law. this way you can defend yourself for cloning Ron Paul and saving the future!

Well, that's disheartening for this current poli sci student/future law student to hear. :p

[amy31416]

Well, that's disheartening for this current poli sci student/future law student to hear. :p

Eh, the lawyers I know are doing fine. One is a filthy rich criminal attorney in Miami (if you want to sell your soul, that's a good way to rake in the dough,) the other is a family attorney in Columbus, OH and is about to make partner. I don't see how he can do it (his undergrad is in astrophysics) and still like it, but eh, I guess divorce and appellate court are interesting to some people.

[bill50]

Do not major in political science if you want to learn something!

All they are going to do is push propaganda down your throat.

[yongrel]

Do not major in political science if you want to learn something!

All they are going to do is push propaganda down your throat.

Do you speak from experience, or are you making this up off the top of your head?

(I think I know the answer)

[RickyJ]

Throwing your money away on an ivy league school is a very bad idea. A degree is merely a piece of paper, credentials to get a job. Education is a life long process that occurs out of school much more than in school. Self-education is easy to do today with 24/7 access to the Internet. I wish the Internet was this big when I was 16. Don't be in such a big hurry to finish school. Relax and enjoy your youth, it doesn't last long.

[torchbearer]

Do you speak from experience, or are you making this up off the top of your head?

(I think I know the answer)

My political science teachers were pushing snake oil in their classes. I was the thorn in their side, and they let me know everytime they had an opportunity to subjectively grade a written essay or report.

[torchbearer]

Throwing your money away on an ivy league school is a very bad idea. A degree is merely a piece of paper, credentials to get a job. Education is a life long process that occurs out of school much more than in school. Self-education is easy to do today with 24/7 access to the Internet. I wish the Internet was this big when I was 16. Don't be in such a big hurry to finish school. Relax and enjoy your youth, it doesn't last long.

the benefit of going Ivy League is the friends you make will most likely have a mommy or daddy who is big time in a huge corp or something.
We study this in sociology. the term slips my mind, but it has to do with proximity.
You are more likely to get hooked up with huge opportunities if you surround yourself with the children of the elite.
That is the purpose of going to these schools.
You can get the book knowledge anywhere... but the friends you make are determined by where you go.

[AFM]

Check out Johns Hopkins.

[AisA1787]

If you go to an Ivy league school... you're paying for the reputation, not the quality of education.

You can do a masters and have a PHD in economics... worth $-00,000's of dollars... and I know more about whats happening in this world, causality etc - obtained from the entire media section at mises.org for FREE..

Yeaaah sucks to be a fool... but what sucks worse is paying hundred of thousands of dollars to be a fool ;)

If you choose to go into politics - it's my opinion, you'll be wasting your life. It would really seem like a loss to humanity if you did imo..

Ron Paul didn't start out in politics - so don't you do it either... he became a DR.. and did austrian economics on the side...

My suggestion you follow what you love; just not politics.. any clown and his 3 monkeys can run eventually... I say go get a Nobel Peace Prize or whatever they call it these days a Laurette and remain the only non retarded academic out there..

Maths / science / numbers / physics - are a damn lot harder to politicize... so stick to those areas if you want to pay for the reputation...

If you do politics - I may just have to hunt you down and kill you... ;)

I'm an Ivy League alum, and I wholeheartedly agree with this advice. While I had an amazing time in school, unless you can go for free or nearly free (i.e., less than or equal to state school tuition) it's simply not worth it. Through some special circumstances, I have very little debt from tuition... but if I did, I would be kicking myself in the ass right now.

I'm currently in a PhD program at a public university (materials science and engineering), and from my experience here I can offer some advice.... if you are as smart as you say you are, you can go to a public university and rock the place - get a 4.0, amazing recommendations for grad school, all while having a life. For real. I do so much LESS work in grad school than I ever did as an undergrad. And the undergrads here do even less than me. If you have average or better social skills and interact with enough professors to get several recommendations for grad, law, or med school, you will be golden.

After all, it's your graduate degree (and dissertation research, if you go that route) that people pay attention to when hiring you for faculty positions or whatever you decide to do. And if you're going into physics, you will need a PhD. Period. End of story. Or else you will not be working in physics. Grad school, and especially your adviser and his or her connections, is all that will matter for you.

Final summary: get your undergrad degree as inexpensively as possible, go to an amazing grad school (where you will most likely have a fellowship, free tuition, and a living stipend), and get a great job.

If you're looking really far ahead, you should read this book. It will show you that even your grad school degree "is not enough" to land the job you want after grad school, if you're in the hard sciences:

A PhD Is Not Enough: A Guide To Survival In Science
by Peter J. Feibelman

p.s. all of those solicitations you're getting from top universities are mainly a way of boosting their application numbers so they can reject more people, thus making themselves more "selective" and improving their ranking in U.S. News... It's true that they only send them to qualified students, but there are many more qualified students in the U.S. than there are seats in Ivy League schools...

[AisA1787]

the benefit of going Ivy League is the friends you make will most likely have a mommy or daddy who is big time in a huge corp or something.
We study this in sociology. the term slips my mind, but it has to do with proximity.
You are more likely to get hooked up with huge opportunities if you surround yourself with the children of the elite.
That is the purpose of going to these schools.
You can get the book knowledge anywhere... but the friends you make are determined by where you go.

Yes, true.... but really only if you don't plan on going to grad school. Then your undergrad days will be where you make your connections and the most prestigious schools will give you a better opportunity (although far from guaranteed) to meet the "right" people.

If you plan on going to grad school, your connections from undergrad will be much less important, basically not important at all, as far as your career is concerned (some exceptions of course are possible..).

[AisA1787]

I have never wanted to go to a state school. Never appealed to me. I can't see myself going to Duke, no offense to any alumni, but I feel I deserve a lot more than that. The least I can get is Ivy League. I really don't care about the cost. Tuition for Cornell and Harvard both run about $50,120. I currently fall under the $0 income category. I eat, breathe, and shit school. It's all I have and frankly I won't settle for less.

I would strongly recommend opening your mind up to more possibilities or you will miss out on finding the right school for you. If you don't like the atmosphere of Duke, or if you hate pine trees, or can't stand their obsession with basketball, those are all good (or at least understandable) reasons to not go there. If you simply think it's not prestigious or "good enough" for you, then you are missing the whole point.

Out of all of the professors in my program, I have no idea where any of them (except my adviser) went to college. Because it doesn't matter. I know they went to places like MIT, Cal Tech, Stanford, and so on, for graduate school. But college? Simply does not matter if you go to grad school. And -- if you look at where MIT, Cal Tech, and Stanford get their grad students, they get quite a few from state schools -- schools that, at this point in your development, you think aren't good enough for you.

Find out what you want to do. Is it physics? If so, find out which universities have the most well known physics professors (Nobel laureates write impressive grad school recommendations...) and the best opportunities for undergraduate research, which will bolster your credentials for grad school.

And don't write off schools -- especially Duke (sweet jebus! that's a good school...) -- because you think they're below you. Also, just curious -- if the "least" you can get is Ivy League, what's the most you can get?

I can tell you from experience that the only difference between the Ivy League and a great public university is the size of your tuition bill and the arrogance of the student body.

(disclaimer: obviously not all of the students at my undergrad institution were unbearably arrogant, but it was a much larger percentage than at my current university...)

[torchbearer]

Yes, true.... but really only if you don't plan on going to grad school. Then your undergrad days will be where you make your connections and the most prestigious schools will give you a better opportunity (although far from guaranteed) to meet the "right" people.

If you plan on going to grad school, your connections from undergrad will be much less important, basically not important at all, as far as your career is concerned (some exceptions of course are possible..).

the point still applies. you will have to go to the ivy league school at some point.
undergrad or grad. makes no difference.

[AisA1787]

the point still applies. you will have to go to the ivy league school at some point.
undergrad or grad. makes no difference.

I don't want to get into an argument... but my guess is you have no idea what you're talking about. Did you go to an Ivy League school for any of your degrees? If not, then why are you giving out advice as if you did?

I got an undergrad degree and master's degree from Ivy League schools. I'm not saying that makes me special. My entire point is that it does not make me special. If more people realized this, we wouldn't have parents and kids going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt for an education they could have gotten 10 times cheaper at their state university. It does, however, make me qualified to speak from experience on this issue.

Graduate school in the hard sciences in the Ivy League is very different than the undergraduate scene. There are not very many of the "privileged elite" in grad school in the Ivy League. There are mostly just regular science nerds, same as you will find at any other grad school.

In fact, I would venture to guess that most people (not you torchbearer, as I'm sure you know better) who talk about the "Ivy League" couldn't list the member schools. People want to go to an Ivy League school before they even figure out what they want to study. And that goes for high school students as well as college grads looking for grad school. The majority don't even know who will be teaching them, much less what they will be learning. But it doesn't matter because it's... drum roll... The Ivy League! :rolleyes:

For all of the bitching and moaning that goes on in this forum about how the MSM brainwashes people, there certainly is a lot of love in this thread for myths about the "Ivy League" which are simply the result of relentless brand promotion by the Ivy League schools themselves and have very little to do with the quality of the education students receive there. Not that it's not a great education, because it is, but you can get just as good an education from any number of other public or private universities in this country. For a lot less money.

And that's about all I have to say about that. To the OP, good luck. And keep an open mind.

[torchbearer]

I don't want to get into an argument... but my guess is you have no idea what you're talking about. Did you go to an Ivy League school for any of your degrees? If not, then why are you giving out advice as if you did?

I got an undergrad degree and master's degree from Ivy League schools. I'm not saying that makes me special. My entire point is that it does not make me special. If more people realized this, we wouldn't have parents and kids going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt for an education they could have gotten 10 times cheaper at their state university. It does, however, make me qualified to speak from experience on this issue.

Graduate school in the hard sciences in the Ivy League is very different than the undergraduate scene. There are not very many of the "privileged elite" in grad school in the Ivy League. There are mostly just regular science nerds, same as you will find at any other grad school.

In fact, I would venture to guess that most people (not you torchbearer, as I'm sure you know better) who talk about the "Ivy League" couldn't list the member schools. People want to go to an Ivy League school before they even figure out what they want to study. They don't even know who will be teaching them, much less what they will be learning. But it doesn't matter because it's... drum roll... The Ivy League! :rolleyes:

For all of the bitching and moaning that goes on in this forum about how the MSM brainwashes people, there certainly is a lot of love in this thread for myths about the "Ivy League" which are simply the result of relentless brand promotion by the Ivy League schools themselves and have very little to do with the quality of the education students receive there. Not that it's not a great education, because it is, but you can get just as good an education from any number of other public or private universities in this country. For a lot less money.

And that's about all I have to say about that. To the OP, good luck. And keep an open mind.

It is not the school but who encompasses its population.
ULM in Lafayette will have fewer people of privilege attending it as would harvard or yale.
or you denying this fact? or did i not communicate this idea effectively in my prior post?
If this is wrong, so are all the sociological textbooks on this subject.

People like George Bush and John Kerry didn't graduate from junior college.

[Nirvikalpa]

Most of my professors teach/have taught at an Ivy League school, and they all tell me the quality of the material is nothing better than what you can get at a public university. Many of the students (and this is a science teacher that told me this) at the undergrad level sleep during the classes and really don't care for the education. They were a shoe-in because they knew an alumni.

As someone earlier had stated - you are paying for the reputation, not the education.

If you are going for the sciences, I highly recommend a small school. There, you can get the hands-on experience you need to truly be successful. I go to a private college in PA that has less than 2,000 students - it gives me the opportunity to stand out and really be of value to my school.

Also. This is from my own experiences as a Science major. My college automatically wants me to take no less than 3 courses in Calc (Calc 3 and beyond) - and this is at a small, no-one-has-heard-of-it college in the middle of nowhere. I checked on UPenn's veterinarian site, and they said only ONE YEAR of Calc is acceptable and needed to apply for a masters.

I want to also stress that a lot of experimentation is not accessible to undergrads - only to graduate and doctoral students. If you go to an ivy league school, chances are the only hands on you will receive in the sciences would be labs, which are basic in any college.

Grad school however, if planning to go on to grad school... that is where name recognition really matters.


I feel I deserve a lot more than that. The least I can get is Ivy League. I really don't care about the cost. Tuition for Cornell and Harvard both run about $50,120. I currently fall under the $0 income category. I eat, breathe, and shit school. It's all I have and frankly I won't settle for less.

Work for it; no one ever deserves anything. Right now there's a kid in your predicament with a 5.00GPA, and they think they deserve it a lot more than you. Remember that. You're not, and never going to be, a gift to any college. There's always someone out there better than you.

Seen a lot of students at my college have an attitude like that, and they were quite disappointed with themselves come first semester grades.

[yongrel]

Work for it; no one ever deserves anything. Right now there's a kid in your predicament with a 5.00GPA, and they think they deserve it a lot more than you. Remember that. You're not, and never going to be, a gift to any college. There's always someone out there better than you.

Seen a lot of students at my college have an attitude like that, and they were quite disappointed with themselves come first semester grades.

Here here!

[0zzy]

Don't take political science, you seem to have an interest in an actual skill. If you want to study politics study it yourself, you'll learn how you want when you want what you want. Hell, take their syllabus and learn urself u want.

[ThisCharmingAzn]

I'm a physics major at UNH studying string theory, and I've learned quite a bit about this whole applying to college process. There's a key point of advice that you should take, which is that your undergraduate school doesn't really matter that much. I mean, of course you shouldn't set the bar at a community college, but going to Harvard or Cornell, while they're great schools with great programs, isn't a neccesity. If you get in and want to go, then great. But there might be other options that are cheaper, and the education you'll get is quite the same. When you go to graduate school, which I'm assuming you will, that's where you want the big name. Plus there's a big cost issue associated with this. MIT is my first choice for grad school, and I think undergrad tuition is like 50k now? I don't think it's much different for anywhere else. Other physics schools you may want to look up are Caltech and Stanford. Richard Feynman was from Caltech, I believe. MIT from what I've heard is not a good place for undergraduate, I hear it's more like a factory, pump em in, pump em out, you know? But they treat the grad kids like gold. But see if you can find a school in state with a good physics program first.

As for politics, I'm not so sure I can help as much, but the whole don't worry about getting into a big name school thing I'm sure applies here as well. By the way, it's pretty cool to meet another Ron-Paul revolutionary/string theorist haha. Hope that helps.

[SnappleLlama]

Well, I guess the first question is: where do you want to live? There are plenty of non-Ivy science schools out there...RIT, Drexel, etc. If you're going into the sciences, why not check out a tech-heavy school?

[amy31416]

I'm a physics major at UNH studying string theory, and I've learned quite a bit about this whole applying to college process. There's a key point of advice that you should take, which is that your undergraduate school doesn't really matter that much. I mean, of course you shouldn't set the bar at a community college, but going to Harvard or Cornell, while they're great schools with great programs, isn't a neccesity. If you get in and want to go, then great. But there might be other options that are cheaper, and the education you'll get is quite the same. When you go to graduate school, which I'm assuming you will, that's where you want the big name. Plus there's a big cost issue associated with this. MIT is my first choice for grad school, and I think undergrad tuition is like 50k now? I don't think it's much different for anywhere else. Other physics schools you may want to look up are Caltech and Stanford. Richard Feynman was from Caltech, I believe. MIT from what I've heard is not a good place for undergraduate, I hear it's more like a factory, pump em in, pump em out, you know? But they treat the grad kids like gold. But see if you can find a school in state with a good physics program first.

As for politics, I'm not so sure I can help as much, but the whole don't worry about getting into a big name school thing I'm sure applies here as well. By the way, it's pretty cool to meet another Ron-Paul revolutionary/string theorist haha. Hope that helps.

Oh, that reminds me of another suggestion for the sciences: Carnegie Mellon University--they are doing some pretty incredible stuff there in the sciences. It's more robotics/engineering than physics, but a great school. I think you're probably right about MIT for undergrad.

I went to a no-name school for undergrad, graduated magna cum laude, was able to do doctoral level research in undergrad, and got into Hopkins for grad school. They don't really care what school you went to, as long as you distinguished yourself in some way(s).

[SnappleLlama]

Oh, that reminds me of another suggestion for the sciences: Carnegie Mellon University--they are doing some pretty incredible stuff there in the sciences. It's more robotics/engineering than physics, but a great school. I think you're probably right about MIT for undergrad.

I went to a no-name school for undergrad, graduated magna cum laude, was able to do doctoral level research in undergrad, and got into Hopkins for grad school. They don't really care what school you went to, as long as you distinguished yourself in some way(s).

Gotta agree about Carnegie Mellon, even though I'm a Pitt grad ;)

That part about Hopkins? Damn...you must be seriously intelligent. Hopkins is no joke.

[ThisCharmingAzn]

Oh, that reminds me of another suggestion for the sciences: Carnegie Mellon University--they are doing some pretty incredible stuff there in the sciences. It's more robotics/engineering than physics, but a great school. I think you're probably right about MIT for undergrad.

I went to a no-name school for undergrad, graduated magna cum laude, was able to do doctoral level research in undergrad, and got into Hopkins for grad school. They don't really care what school you went to, as long as you distinguished yourself in some way(s).

I've been talking to a lot of people and they all seem to tell me the say thing. Getting into grad school is more about your reputation - your research, your recommendations, and who you know - rather than your grades and community service and laundry list of activities that you go through to get into undergrad. Grads schools want to see a student who can do research, work on their own, independently, produce quality results, be responsible, perhaps have already been published. Because the truth is that schools look at you, the student, as a product. They want to know what you can do for them. What will you do if they invest in you? (The funny part is that you actually pay them haha). Yea grades and that laundry list are still sort of important, but that's not the tipping point. At least, that's what I've heard. Would you agree? So as an undergrad I'm gonna push hard to get research in my hands, meet professors from other schools, and do a lot of extra work.

[amy31416]

I've been talking to a lot of people and they all seem to tell me the say thing. Getting into grad school is more about your reputation - your research, your recommendations, and who you know - rather than your grades and community service and laundry list of activities that you go through to get into undergrad. Grads schools want to see a student who can do research, work on their own, independently, produce quality results, be responsible, perhaps have already been published. Because the truth is that schools look at you, the student, as a product. They want to know what you can do for them. What will you do if they invest in you? (The funny part is that you actually pay them haha). Yea grades and that laundry list are still sort of important, but that's not the tipping point. At least, that's what I've heard. Would you agree? So as an undergrad I'm gonna push hard to get research in my hands, meet professors from other schools, and do a lot of extra work.

You're absolutely right, but I'm only speaking for the sciences here. There are also scenarios where they pay you to go to grad school. I didn't go straight to grad school after undergrad, so I lost that possibility. Independent research is vital, they don't want to have to babysit or hold your hand too much. Most professors are a study in egotism, so be prepared for that, it can be obnoxious.

For example, in undergrad, I had a scholarship to do research with a person getting their PhD in biochemistry for two semesters. I did independent environmental research that I picked up by volunteering to continue something that wasn't finished. I'd also written grant proposals, filled out all the forms begging for more equipment/reagents, written "easy-use" guides for the analytical instruments along with troubleshooting guides (since most were poor translations from Japanese/German.) I also learned the fine art of begging other departments for time on their equipment (great on an application if you are one of those who can work well with others--good relationship skills are lacking in the sciences.) Schmoozing comes in handy, negotation skills are very good to have.

Just speaking from my own observations, your mileage may vary. Expect to have to do things like go into the lab at 3AM or at random times. With biochem, often the timing worked out that way. I preferred it because I didn't have to deal with other people getting in my way or interrupting me.

[tribute_13]

If I go to school one more semester after high school, I'll have my associates because Ill only be two credits shy. Once I finish this, I'll be an undergrad?

[yongrel]

If I go to school one more semester after high school, I'll have my associates because Ill only be two credits shy. Once I finish this, I'll be an undergrad?

I don't have any experience with associates degress, but I know plenty of folks who entered college with enough credits from community college that they started as a Junior. If you've been taking the right gen ed courses, you'll be able to forgo a lot of the intro level courses.

Also, to your original post, what is important to you in a college? Are you concerned with location, strength of program, size, political leanings, etc? Any of these factors can be very important in deciding where to apply.

[tribute_13]

I want to make my mark in history. I want to go to a good school, with great name recognition that can get me great opportunities and can get me places. I think it is safe to say that Ivy League schools can get you associated with highly influential people. I want to be someone who will benefit this country and this planet. I have a lot of expectations for me. I always have had high standards for me. I don't know if this will be my ultimate downfall if I'm not open to other choices. I will apply to backup schools. I just would absolutely be thrilled if I could get into Ivy League. I personally believe I can do it. I would be more surprised if I didn't get in. I'm not trying to sound conceited I'm just really looking forward to the next 10 years as far as education is concerned. I just hope nothing interrupts it like war or something else equally terrible.

[Conza88]

I want to make my mark in history. I want to go to a good school, with great name recognition that can get me great opportunities and can get me places. I think it is safe to say that Ivy League schools can get you associated with highly influential people. I want to be someone who will benefit this country and this planet. I have a lot of expectations for me. I always have had high standards for me. I don't know if this will be my ultimate downfall if I'm not open to other choices. I will apply to backup schools. I just would absolutely be thrilled if I could get into Ivy League. I personally believe I can do it. I would be more surprised if I didn't get in. I'm not trying to sound conceited I'm just really looking forward to the next 10 years as far as education is concerned. I just hope nothing interrupts it like war or something else equally terrible.

"All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education."– Sir Walter Scott

[yongrel]

I want to make my mark in history. I want to go to a good school, with great name recognition that can get me great opportunities and can get me places. I think it is safe to say that Ivy League schools can get you associated with highly influential people. I want to be someone who will benefit this country and this planet. I have a lot of expectations for me. I always have had high standards for me. I don't know if this will be my ultimate downfall if I'm not open to other choices. I will apply to backup schools. I just would absolutely be thrilled if I could get into Ivy League. I personally believe I can do it. I would be more surprised if I didn't get in. I'm not trying to sound conceited I'm just really looking forward to the next 10 years as far as education is concerned. I just hope nothing interrupts it like war or something else equally terrible.

1) Ivycentricism has been the downfall of many a promising student. The Ivies are not the only schools worth attending.

2) If your only criteria for judging a school is its lay prestige, then you are setting yourself up for a miserable 4 years. An uncle of mine went to Yale for a year and hated it. Transferred to U Washington and loved every second. There are a ton of factors that should go into your decision. For undergraduate especially, prestige should probably be the last item on your list.

3) Figure out what program you want, and go from there. Going to Harvard for a BA in English is pretty damn silly, considering you could get an equivalent or greater degree for a lot less elsewhere. Figure out what you want to study, and go from there. Want to study Political Science? Stanford's a helluva lot better than most Ivies. Physics? Besides Cornell, the Ivies probably aren't for you.

4) Don't take anything for granted. Your numbers are great, and you obviously haven't been slacking, but... Harvard gets thousands of applicants just like you ever year, and thousands more that are better. Don't set yourself up for depression by assuming you'll get into the best schools in the country.

[mtmedlin]

Oh, that reminds me of another suggestion for the sciences: Carnegie Mellon University--they are doing some pretty incredible stuff there in the sciences. It's more robotics/engineering than physics, but a great school. I think you're probably right about MIT for undergrad.

I went to a no-name school for undergrad, graduated magna cum laude, was able to do doctoral level research in undergrad, and got into Hopkins for grad school. They don't really care what school you went to, as long as you distinguished yourself in some way(s).

Carnegie Mellon is great school and kicks ass for Social Policy which in my opinion is much better then a straight up Poli Sci degree.
I guess I shouldnt disparage Poli Sci as much as I do. I hold a BA in it and wouldnt change my life for anything. There are many in the political circles in FLorida that know who I am because of my work and I could have had a great career. I got accepted into Stetson Law school but had an epiphany and chose to switch to education. Now I hold 3 degrees and own a party store. WHo knows? I guess I just have Intellectual ADD or something.
In 2012, I am running for school Board in my county (pays $38,000 for a part time position that takes roughly 12 hours a MONTH - which is one of the first things I am going to fix) All in all I believe fate works out pretty well for me. My background in Poli Sci and Education has lead to a pretty interesting path for me.

[mtmedlin]

1) Ivycentricism has been the downfall of many a promising student. The Ivies are not the only schools worth attending.

2) If your only criteria for judging a school is its lay prestige, then you are setting yourself up for a miserable 4 years. An uncle of mine went to Yale for a year and hated it. Transferred to U Washington and loved every second. There are a ton of factors that should go into your decision. For undergraduate especially, prestige should probably be the last item on your list.

3) Figure out what program you want, and go from there. Going to Harvard for a BA in English is pretty damn silly, considering you could get an equivalent or greater degree for a lot less elsewhere. Figure out what you want to study, and go from there. Want to study Political Science? Stanford's a helluva lot better than most Ivies. Physics? Besides Cornell, the Ivies probably aren't for you.

4) Don't take anything for granted. Your numbers are great, and you obviously haven't been slacking, but... Harvard gets thousands of applicants just like you ever year, and thousands more that are better. Don't set yourself up for depression by assuming you'll get into the best schools in the country.


Very, very well put!

my brother got accepted at MIT and Georgia Tech BUT Georgia Tech offered him a teaching asst. Position and he actually MADE $12,000 a year and got a free education. AS far as jobs, he worked for Nasa for a summer and then went to Lockheed Martin and design propulsion systems. G Tech grads make just as much as MIT and they dont owe an assload of cash afterwards.

[yongrel]

my brother got accepted at MIT and Georgia Tech BUT Georgia Tech offered him a teaching asst. Position and he actually MADE $12,000 a year and got a free education. AS far as jobs, he worked for Nasa for a summer and then went to Lockheed Martin and design propulsion systems. G Tech grads make just as much as MIT and they dont owe an assload of cash afterwards.

I've got several family members that made very similar choices in engineering. My grandfather turned down Stanford for the Colorado School of Mines. Instead of owing thousands of dollars upon graduation, he got to make about 10k a year (big money back then) from his various patents in metallurgy.

I myself turned down a few bigger name schools in favor of being in DC. There's no better place in the world to study American politics.

[mtmedlin]

I've got several family members that made very similar choices in engineering. My grandfather turned down Stanford for the Colorado School of Mines. Instead of owing thousands of dollars upon graduation, he got to make about 10k a year (big money back then) from his various patents in metallurgy.

I myself turned down a few bigger name schools in favor of being in DC. There's no better place in the world to study American politics.

I wanted to move to DC and go to JOhns Hopkins for their Masters in Public Policy but it would have meant moving my kids out of their school....so....
When I talked to them about their program the thing that sold me on it, at the time was that they had a summer program where you could go study at the University of London. I love studying American Politics and Policy but sometimes it can be very beneficial to get that outside point of view.

[constituent]

I want to make my mark... I want to go... get me great opportunities and can get me places. I think... I want... I have a lot of expectations for me. I always have had high standards for me. I don't know if this will be my ultimate downfall if I'm not open to other choices. I will apply to backup schools. I just would absolutely be thrilled if I could get into Ivy League. I personally believe I can do it. I would be more surprised if I didn't get in. I'm not trying to sound conceited I'm just really looking forward to the next 10 years as far as education is concerned. I just hope nothing interrupts it like war or something else equally terrible.

Having obtained my degree in english lit., lemme recommend you work on relating to other people, both in real life and writing style.

That said, imo, ditch college for a few semesters and go to trade skill. Learn how to do something useful (besides pontificating over your own greatness) that relates to your desired field of study (science is it? try some flavor of "process technology"), get a job and get your foot in the door somewhere industry wise. Forget riding in on the coattails of the king, stand on your own merits, abilities and work ethic.

Three benefits of this approach

1) If through unforseen circumstances you find yourself out in the street somewhere between your sophomore and junior years, then you will be able to find--in fact, probably already have--a real job that pays you enough to eat, work and pay rent all at the same time.

"Some college" looks like shite on a resume.

2) Keep your chin up on the job, show up on time (everyday) wearing a smile on your face, and your employer might keep you around long enough to qualify for some sort of tuition reimbursement program to intice you to stick around.

3) More often than not, any company that you work for will be a bureaucratic nightmare full of middle-management types more concerned with covering their own asses and protecting their "hard-earned" right to sit around and do f* all toward increasing productivity. Knowing this, expect that you will find being the guy covering his ass w/ underlings vastly preferable to being the underling he does it with. The sooner you get to work on becoming that guy, the better off you will be.


All that said, keep up the hard work, chase you dreams, live long, prosper and all that jazz.