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DeadtoSin
08-01-2008, 01:16 PM
I don't really know why I'm writing this. When I first heard about the message of freedom it was pretty new to me. At that point I kind of thought once other people heard it they'd realize what they were hearing was the truth. I've just been kind of disappointed with the reaction of so many Christians I know. (I'm not saying Christians are more unreasonable than others, I know plenty of non-Christians that are just as unreasonable.) Since I was very vocal and active in my area I've become the "politics guy", and that's what every conversation invariably turns to. Nobody I know every gives an inch on anything they believe no matter how much proof I can give them.

This thread really has no point I suppose, I just needed to vent pretty badly. I've just been hoping for so long now that I could wake some of them up.

(I guess I'm mostly bummed out because I missed last month's CFL meeting and I haven't been able to see any of them, go to the Texas state convention, or the Rally for the Republic. :()

Thomas_Paine
08-01-2008, 01:28 PM
Did you know that thousands of clergy have been recruited by the Feds to teach Romans 13 when we have martial law? It is very sad for me to see fellow Christians getting fooled like this.

Nirvikalpa
08-01-2008, 01:32 PM
Dumb Christians. I too am disappointed. Why can't you go to the Rally, DeadtoSin?

Grimnir Wotansvolk
08-01-2008, 01:33 PM
The amount of cognitive dissonance in these posts is astounding. What is it going to take for you guys to figure out that Christianity exists in direct opposition to freedom?

acptulsa
08-01-2008, 01:35 PM
The amount of cognitive dissonance in these posts is astounding. What is it going to take for you guys to figure out that Christianity exists in direct opposition to freedom?

Oh, probably the reversion to only one brand of Christianity a la the mideval Catholic Church.

Until then, the free market is keeping it alive. Who here could complain about that?

georgiaboy
08-01-2008, 01:37 PM
... Christianity exists in direct opposition to freedom...

does not, and i'm not taking the bait.

Ron Paul Vermont
08-01-2008, 01:38 PM
I don't really know why I'm writing this. When I first heard about the message of freedom it was pretty new to me. At that point I kind of thought once other people heard it they'd realize what they were hearing was the truth. I've just been kind of disappointed with the reaction of so many Christians I know. (I'm not saying Christians are more unreasonable than others, I know plenty of non-Christians that are just as unreasonable.) Since I was very vocal and active in my area I've become the "politics guy", and that's what every conversation invariably turns to. Nobody I know every gives an inch on anything they believe no matter how much proof I can give them.

This thread really has no point I suppose, I just needed to vent pretty badly. I've just been hoping for so long now that I could wake some of them up.

(I guess I'm mostly bummed out because I missed last month's CFL meeting and I haven't been able to see any of them, go to the Texas state convention, or the Rally for the Republic. :()

As a fellow Christian I am sympathize with you. I know plenty of Christians who chose Huckabee over Paul. I also know many who are going to vote for McCain cause he is *supposedly* the lesser of two evils. All I can do for now is pray that they we will wake up!

Anyone else need to vent? :D

Ron Paul Vermont
08-01-2008, 01:43 PM
The amount of cognitive dissonance in these posts is astounding. What is it going to take for you guys to figure out that Christianity exists in direct opposition to freedom?

I think to many of them have watched (the zeigeist). Of course Christianity does not go in direct opposition to freedom. Most of the founding fathers were christians and they created to constitution to keep things like what are happening today from happening. It is just that the masses have been manipulated by the media and government.

"now im not saying it is just Christians..." How many of you know atheist's or non christians who are voting for McCain or Obama for that matter? Im sure all of you know at least acouple.

Feenix566
08-01-2008, 01:43 PM
I really don't think that anyone's religious affiliation or lack thereof can be used as an indicator for how much they believe in liberty. There is no correlation.

Austin
08-01-2008, 01:44 PM
Ay. I, too, feel your pain. The sheer lack of competence in the matter astounds me. The Huckabee over Paul thing really got me irritated as well.

The most we can do is keep trying.

newyearsrevolution08
08-01-2008, 01:44 PM
I was raised in the church since I was 5 AND from that I was taught "blind faith" and to not ask questions. Where else have I heard that bull? oh yeah our government.

Christians will NOT change their point of view because it is not simply them changing a political view but a "belief" because if they STOP thinking that there is a potential holy war and that we MIGHT not have to protect Israel then what would they believe then?

Like I have said in other threads " I have as much blind faith in God as I do our government".

The hardest type of person to convert (for me) was a "mccain christian" because they 100% believe that we MUST protect "something", they are not quite sure why we are at war BUT it is about religion and not anything else.

I decided to stop trying to point out flaws in their thinking because you are trashing their faith WHICH will NEVER end well as far as a conversation goes.

What I have started and have been doing is much easier. Ask them WHY we are at war HONESTLY and ask them NOT to simply quote the recent news BUT their actual thoughts on the subject and go from there. Most times they have "one statement" they make to everyone but after that they need to be informed by their pastor, God or the news as to their next belief.

Religion + Politics never goes well together BUT for those "holy war christians" they are 100% the same topic or at least that is how it keeps coming out when I speak with them.

It is a much harder conversation than any other just due to the "bible backing the political" b.s. versus trying to show a democrat or republican WHY wars, our economy and other issues are happening. Its easier to flip flop on a party affiliation versus what you consider your "faith to live your life by" mentality.

No offense to any christians, those who have faith or go to church. Whatever works for you do it. Free to believe as you will and sometimes people do need to think there is something BIGGER than them when times get hard. It's always easier to say "I prayed and I will leave it in God's hands" versus actually getting off your butt and making things happen.


I don't really know why I'm writing this. When I first heard about the message of freedom it was pretty new to me. At that point I kind of thought once other people heard it they'd realize what they were hearing was the truth. I've just been kind of disappointed with the reaction of so many Christians I know. (I'm not saying Christians are more unreasonable than others, I know plenty of non-Christians that are just as unreasonable.) Since I was very vocal and active in my area I've become the "politics guy", and that's what every conversation invariably turns to. Nobody I know every gives an inch on anything they believe no matter how much proof I can give them.

This thread really has no point I suppose, I just needed to vent pretty badly. I've just been hoping for so long now that I could wake some of them up.

(I guess I'm mostly bummed out because I missed last month's CFL meeting and I haven't been able to see any of them, go to the Texas state convention, or the Rally for the Republic. :()

lisajames96
08-01-2008, 01:45 PM
As a fellow Christian I am sympathize with you. I know plenty of Christians who chose Huckabee over Paul. I also know many who are going to vote for McCain cause he is *supposedly* the lesser of two evils. All I can do for now is pray that they we will wake up!

Anyone else need to vent? :D

Started to...


I just realized that I must not be as christian as I thought I was. I had to go back and read romans 13. Uh, they don't preach that one in the black church:)(tongue in cheek. I attend an "intergrated" church)

DeadtoSin
08-01-2008, 01:45 PM
I hear the lesser of two evils at least two or three times a day. I ask them why they are still voting for evil, and they never have an answer. And please don't take the troll bait. I don't care of a non-Christian posts in here, but if they are just trying to troll let it alone. (NewYearsRevolution is an example of a good post that is informative, so I appreciate it there.)

I can't go to the rally because of money basically. They gave me a scholarship that I was counting on, but for some reason I have to use it over the course of two semesters. So now I owe around 500-600 dollars for books that I wasn't expecting to owe.

georgiaboy
08-01-2008, 01:46 PM
I don't really know why I'm writing this. When I first heard about the message of freedom it was pretty new to me. At that point I kind of thought once other people heard it they'd realize what they were hearing was the truth. I've just been kind of disappointed with the reaction of so many Christians I know. (I'm not saying Christians are more unreasonable than others, I know plenty of non-Christians that are just as unreasonable.) Since I was very vocal and active in my area I've become the "politics guy", and that's what every conversation invariably turns to. Nobody I know every gives an inch on anything they believe no matter how much proof I can give them.

This thread really has no point I suppose, I just needed to vent pretty badly. I've just been hoping for so long now that I could wake some of them up.

(I guess I'm mostly bummed out because I missed last month's CFL meeting and I haven't been able to see any of them, go to the Texas state convention, or the Rally for the Republic. :()

Don't worry, DtS, you're probably just ahead of the crowd in your sphere of influence. There are lots of Christians who post here and who are out in the world that love this message.

In my circles, there are those who have for so many years bought into one or the other party line, that to give up their entrenched political positions would be humiliating to them. I for one am more easily able to adapt my positions without worrying so much about saving face or the attendant peer pressures that may result. You may be more like me (or not), and your local group of Xns may carry that higher philosophical/political inertia.

Also, as a Christian, to re-use a popular Xn metaphor, have you considered the fact that you've been given the task of planting the seeds, someone else will come along and water them, and others will be around to reap the harvest?

Chin up, brother/sister.

DeadtoSin
08-01-2008, 01:48 PM
Don't worry, DtS, you're probably just ahead of the crowd in your sphere of influence. There are lots of Christians who post here and who are out in the world that love this message.

In my circles, there are those who have for so many years bought into one or the other party line, that to give up their entrenched political positions would be humiliating to them. I for one am more easily able to adapt my positions without worrying so much about saving face or the attendant peer pressures that may result. You may be more like me (or not), and your local group of Xns may carry that higher philosophical/political inertia.

Also, as a Christian, to re-use a popular Xn metaphor, have you considered the fact that you've been given the task of planting the seeds, someone else will come along and water them, and others will be around to reap the harvest?

Chin up, brother/sister.

Darn it, now you've gone and put me in a better mood with that seeds thing. I had good intentions of moping around the house today and now I've got to do something productive. :D

amy31416
08-01-2008, 01:56 PM
I didn't know what Romans 13 was about either, so I did a google search and Chuck Baldwin's thoughts on it came up. Here's for those of you who are interested: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/baldwin1.html

(I got a bit bored with it and only read about half-way. Not my cup o' tea, but figured it might be of interest to you guys.)

reduen
08-01-2008, 02:08 PM
I was raised in the church since I was 5 AND from that I was taught "blind faith" and to not ask questions. Where else have I heard that bull? oh yeah our government.

Christians will NOT change their point of view because it is not simply them changing a political view but a "belief" because if they STOP thinking that there is a potential holy war and that we MIGHT not have to protect Israel then what would they believe then?

Like I have said in other threads " I have as much blind faith in God as I do our government".

The hardest type of person to convert (for me) was a "mccain christian" because they 100% believe that we MUST protect "something", they are not quite sure why we are at war BUT it is about religion and not anything else.

I decided to stop trying to point out flaws in their thinking because you are trashing their faith WHICH will NEVER end well as far as a conversation goes.

What I have started and have been doing is much easier. Ask them WHY we are at war HONESTLY and ask them NOT to simply quote the recent news BUT their actual thoughts on the subject and go from there. Most times they have "one statement" they make to everyone but after that they need to be informed by their pastor, God or the news as to their next belief.

Religion + Politics never goes well together BUT for those "holy war christians" they are 100% the same topic or at least that is how it keeps coming out when I speak with them.

It is a much harder conversation than any other just due to the "bible backing the political" b.s. versus trying to show a democrat or republican WHY wars, our economy and other issues are happening. Its easier to flip flop on a party affiliation versus what you consider your "faith to live your life by" mentality.

No offense to any christians, those who have faith or go to church. Whatever works for you do it. Free to believe as you will and sometimes people do need to think there is something BIGGER than them when times get hard. It's always easier to say "I prayed and I will leave it in God's hands" versus actually getting off your butt and making things happen.


"Christians will NOT change their point of view because it is not simply them changing a political view but a "belief" because if they STOP thinking that there is a potential holy war and that we MIGHT not have to protect Israel then what would they believe then?"

The above quoted statment proves that you are nothing more than a blathering idiot when it comes to True Christianity and you have never know The Christ Jesus...

How is it that those who claim to be the most opposed to Christianity always seem to be the "experts" on how a Christian is or isn't and/or how we should or should not be?

The sheer fact that you and many others here would continue to make such generalizations time and time agian proves your ignorrance.

lisajames96
08-01-2008, 02:14 PM
I didn't know what Romans 13 was about either, so I did a google search and Chuck Baldwin's thoughts on it came up. Here's for those of you who are interested: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/baldwin1.html

(I got a bit bored with it and only read about half-way. Not my cup o' tea, but figured it might be of interest to you guys.)


I enjoyed reading that:)...Hopefully no one will approach me now with any submit to tyranny nonsense.

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 02:21 PM
Anarchism and the Bible (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/rostan1.html)
They go together, says Jérémie T.A. Rostan.

newyearsrevolution08
08-01-2008, 02:23 PM
LOL are you joking?

I am not against anything and if you READ what I wrote you MIGHT have seen that. I was raised in the church, did the christian school thing until 10th grade BUT if you read my responses you MIGHT realize WHY I was writing what I did.

I was simply stating the correlation between religion and politics that I have SEEN with mccain supporters who happen to be christians.

I have known the Christ Jesus BUT won't simply follow anything blindly just because I was told to do so. You have the right to believe in Christ just as I do to realize that there MIGHT not be a God.

Am I going to call myself an atheist? HELL NO, but I do know that those christians who happen to support mccain are NOT doing it because of "war" but rather because its a "holy war". Tell me I'm wrong BUT instead of trying to talk down why not offer an ACTUAL response that makes sense OR disputes what I am saying.

quick edit as well: My so called generalization was based on THOSE I TALKED WITH trying to see why they were voting for mccain while I was talking about ron paul. It was a HARDER conversion to make BECAUSE of their faith, religion, belief or whatever you want to call it. I am not an expert in anything and far from it BUT from the many christians I talked to while doing precinct walks and calls THAT is what I got the majority of. " It's a holy war" "It's because of our faith and belief system" and so on. I am not generalizing christians on a BROAD basis but those I talked with.

I can also generalize obama and ron paul supporters that I talked with as well BUT they were not generally religion based as far as the war goes LIKE mccain supporters were.




"Christians will NOT change their point of view because it is not simply them changing a political view but a "belief" because if they STOP thinking that there is a potential holy war and that we MIGHT not have to protect Israel then what would they believe then?"

The above quoted statment proves that you are nothing more than a blathering idiot when it comes to True Christianity and you have never know The Christ Jesus...

How is it that those who claim to be the most opposed to Christianity always seem to be the "experts" on how a Christian is or isn't and/or how we should or should not be?

The sheer fact that you and many others here would continue to make such generalizations time and time agian proves your ignorrance.

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 02:24 PM
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." -- George Washington

ninepointfive
08-01-2008, 02:24 PM
My take on it is that religious people need a higher authority in their life to set things straight for them, since they cannot find that willpower in themselves.

Another higher authority is government, and trusting politicians to wage war for "freedoms" and other such bs. Once again, they don't take their own free will and run with it. They will trust others to make those decisions for them.

thehittgirl
08-01-2008, 02:26 PM
I have been feeling the same way. I can't talk politics with very many people anymore...I'm burnt out and frustrated...and I risk having the I told you so attitude as far as the war and the economy goes. Not very Christian. But there are a few I have woken up. So I try to keep reminding myself of those planted seeds.

A friend of mine asked me who I am voting for. I told her Chuck Baldwin if he is on the ballot and if not, no one. She shook her head and said, "I HAVE to vote for one of the two" I thought I was going to explode in anger. How can such a good friend be so ignorant and part of the problem. Especially after all I've shown her and told her?????

Jeremy
08-01-2008, 02:28 PM
Anarchism and the Bible (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/rostan1.html)
They go together, says Jérémie T.A. Rostan.

No they don't. Minarchism maybe.


LOL are you joking?

I am not against anything and if you READ what I wrote you MIGHT have seen that. I was raised in the church, did the christian school thing until 10th grade BUT if you read my responses you MIGHT realize WHY I was writing what I did.

I was simply stating the correlation between religion and politics that I have SEEN with mccain supporters who happen to be christians.

I have known the Christ Jesus BUT won't simply follow anything blindly just because I was told to do so. You have the right to believe in Christ just as I do to realize that there MIGHT not be a God.

Am I going to call myself an atheist? HELL NO, but I do know that those christians who happen to support mccain are NOT doing it because of "war" but rather because its a "holy war". Tell me I'm wrong BUT instead of trying to talk down why not offer an ACTUAL response that makes sense OR disputes what I am saying.


There's a difference between having blind faith and Christ following.

Jeremy
08-01-2008, 02:30 PM
Here's a good article on Christianity and libertarianism: http://www.lewrockwell.com/yates/yates87.html

He also bashes a bit of atheistic libertarianism.

newyearsrevolution08
08-01-2008, 02:30 PM
Anyone who I have difficulties talking with like those "100% my way or no way" which we have plenty of, I THEN just give them a copy of the manifesto to read. It does NOT talk down on their faith, religion, belief or what have you AND also is just a book NOT trying to convert anyone to ron paul for president BUT rather explaining WHY these wars and everything does NOT make sense.

Sometimes it is much easier to let someone tell themselves "I told you so" instead of you trying to convince them of something.


I have been feeling the same way. I can't talk politics with very many people anymore...I'm burnt out and frustrated...and I risk having the I told you so attitude as far as the war and the economy goes. Not very Christian. But there are a few I have woken up. So I try to keep reminding myself of those planted seeds.

A friend of mine asked me who I am voting for. I told her Chuck Baldwin if he is on the ballot and if not, no one. She shook her head and said, "I HAVE to vote for one of the two" I thought I was going to explode in anger. How can such a good friend be so ignorant and part of the problem. Especially after all I've shown her and told her?????

georgiaboy
08-01-2008, 02:33 PM
I have been feeling the same way. I can't talk politics with very many people anymore...I'm burnt out and frustrated...and I risk having the I told you so attitude as far as the war and the economy goes. Not very Christian. But there are a few I have woken up. So I try to keep reminding myself of those planted seeds.

A friend of mine asked me who I am voting for. I told her Chuck Baldwin if he is on the ballot and if not, no one. She shook her head and said, "I HAVE to vote for one of the two" I thought I was going to explode in anger. How can such a good friend be so ignorant and part of the problem. Especially after all I've shown her and told her?????

it's weird to me that us Christians, who profess faith in a God who literally spoke the world into existence, can't vote our conscience in accord with our Christian principles, and leave the outcome and future in God's hands. What are we really trusting in?

Nirvikalpa
08-01-2008, 02:34 PM
I didn't know what Romans 13 was about either, so I did a google search and Chuck Baldwin's thoughts on it came up. Here's for those of you who are interested: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/baldwin1.html

(I got a bit bored with it and only read about half-way. Not my cup o' tea, but figured it might be of interest to you guys.)

GREAT read for any Christian. Will definitely send this to many I know. Thanks Amy :)

<start rant>

There are many, many good Christians in this movement that are pro-liberty and pro-God, the two can coincide despite what a lot of people say. Freedom of religion, the right to worship or not worship a God, is a part of that Liberty.

I blame this attitude on the Church. They're losing their way with Christians (so at least I can say about some Catholic Churches) - more concerned with paying off the families involved with the sex scandal than keeping the true Christian faith alive. How many heterosexual couples do I see that make me sick - cheating, backstabbing, adulterous... and the church is only worried about keeping Gay and Lesbian couples from marrying. So many Christians today follow the 'do as I say, not what I do' principal. Yes, no one is perfect, but so many Christians I see do things because they know they will be forgiven anyway - they don't strive to be good for goodness sake.

Divorce rate is not around 50%. The Church needs to open its eyes to the horrors in its own closed doors before they try to 'fix' other problems.

What happened to Christians doing service? Feeding the poor? Going on mission trips? Making sure on Thanksgiving and Christmas ever underprivileged family didn't go to bed hungry? I'm lucky my college and high school (which was a Marist Brothers high school) give me the chance to do that. I've met a lot of good people through these programs, and it makes me proud to be a Christian. I just wish the Church would reiterate the Beatitudes, because I feel they are the best way to live and I think Christians forget them half the time... :(

</rant>

newyearsrevolution08
08-01-2008, 02:44 PM
great rant and I agree indeed.

That is the one thing I kept asking my pastor and mom about as well. I used to canvass to the homeless with my mom when I was in my teens and loved it. As I got older I started to see stuff in "my church" (God forbid I generalize and say all churches lol) that bugged me. I asked, "WHY are we not going to bars, strip clubs and other places where unsaved people might be at instead of going to church 3 times a week?".

I never really got a response that made any sense. It seemed that in MY CHURCH (not generalizing lol) people focused more on their attendance than going out and canvassing with unsaved people.


I know there are those who DO go out of their way to locate sinners and those unsaved and talk with them BUT that was NOT in my church as I got older. Sure there was the door to door efforts BUT actually going OUT to events, bars and other areas to canvass never happened. It seemed more were worried about their image in these places versus trying to lead people to God.

Once again just speaking from MY EXPERIENCE and not condemning the entire christian belief system ;)

I know there are christians in this movement who are amazing and there are atheists in this movement as well that are amazing and I am happy to have them BOTH on my side which is the side of the constitution even if we MIGHT not agree on religion or faith based ideals 100%.

GREAT read for any Christian. Will definitely send this to many I know. Thanks Amy :)

<start rant>

There are many, many good Christians in this movement that are pro-liberty and pro-God, the two can coincide despite what a lot of people say. Freedom of religion, the right to worship or not worship a God, is a part of that Liberty.

I blame this attitude on the Church. They're losing their way with Christians (so at least I can say about some Catholic Churches) - more concerned with paying off the families involved with the sex scandal than keeping the true Christian faith alive. How many heterosexual couples do I see that make me sick - cheating, backstabbing, adulterous... and the church is only worried about keeping Gay and Lesbian couples from marrying. So many Christians today follow the 'do as I say, not what I do' principal. Yes, no one is perfect, but so many Christians I see do things because they know they will be forgiven anyway - they don't strive to be good for goodness sake.

Divorce rate is not around 50%. The Church needs to open its eyes to the horrors in its own closed doors before they try to 'fix' other problems.

What happened to Christians doing service? Feeding the poor? Going on mission trips? Making sure on Thanksgiving and Christmas ever underprivileged family didn't go to bed hungry? I'm lucky my college and high school (which was a Marist Brothers high school) give me the chance to do that. I've met a lot of good people through these programs, and it makes me proud to be a Christian. I just wish the Church would reiterate the Beatitudes, because I feel they are the best way to live and I think Christians forget them half the time... :(

</rant>

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 02:48 PM
No they don't. Minarchism maybe.
Thanks, for NOT reading the article. :rolleyes:

DeadtoSin
08-01-2008, 02:49 PM
Thanks for the good posts guys. Maybe I am planting some seeds, who knows?

rightwinghour
08-01-2008, 02:56 PM
I don't really know why I'm writing this. When I first heard about the message of freedom it was pretty new to me. At that point I kind of thought once other people heard it they'd realize what they were hearing was the truth. I've just been kind of disappointed with the reaction of so many Christians I know. (I'm not saying Christians are more unreasonable than others, I know plenty of non-Christians that are just as unreasonable.) Since I was very vocal and active in my area I've become the "politics guy", and that's what every conversation invariably turns to. Nobody I know every gives an inch on anything they believe no matter how much proof I can give them.

This thread really has no point I suppose, I just needed to vent pretty badly. I've just been hoping for so long now that I could wake some of them up.

(I guess I'm mostly bummed out because I missed last month's CFL meeting and I haven't been able to see any of them, go to the Texas state convention, or the Rally for the Republic. :()

I feel your pain. I was at a Bible study Tuesday night and someone mentioned how Christians have not stood up for their rights through the years. I spoke up and told everybody that not only have we not stood up for our rights, we have signed them away. I told them that whenever a church is formed as a 501c3 corporation, the government OWNS them and nobody in the pulpit or even in a Sunday school class can speak against evil in government. We effectively slit our own wrists when we sign that stupid form. Some in the group acted like they'd never heard of a 501c3 before, and everybody acted like they finally understood why Christians are so ineffective toward government these days.

georgiaboy
08-01-2008, 02:57 PM
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." -- George Washington

“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” -- George Washington

http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/George_Washington/

There are plenty more. have fun.

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 02:58 PM
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/when_fascism_comes_300.gif

newyearsrevolution08
08-01-2008, 02:59 PM
Faith and Belief in God is NOT the same as religion and church. - Myself


“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” -- George Washington

georgiaboy
08-01-2008, 03:00 PM
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/when_fascism_comes_300.gif

ah, i see.

not playin'.

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 03:01 PM
“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” -- George Washington George seems a bit cognitive dissonant or maybe even schizophrenic. :rolleyes:

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 03:02 PM
ah, i see.

not playin'.up 1 post. :D

RoamZero
08-01-2008, 03:03 PM
Keep up the good fight. God knows we'll need to be ready for 2012 when Huckabee runs again..

georgiaboy
08-01-2008, 03:06 PM
Thanks for the good posts guys. Maybe I am planting some seeds, who knows?

There is one who does know. ;)

John 16:33b -- In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

tonesforjonesbones
08-01-2008, 03:07 PM
Churches are also subject to corruption because of the human element. I gave up going to church...you don't have to attend a church building , or become a member of any church to be a good christian. Don't forget..the church heiarchy is always having to pander to the members who have and give the dough in order for the church to run and the minister to have a job. I got sick of all that. I thought "this isn't what Jesus intended." Politics abounds in churches and sometimes I think they are the worst place for it. I like the idea of a group of brothers and sisters just going down to the beach, nothing organized and being together in prayer...singing, reading scripture etc...no minister, no elders , no priests or alter boys and no collection plate...now that's freedom! "Where two or more are gathered in my name I am there also." Jesus Said it. Tones

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 03:08 PM
Keep up the good fight. God knows we'll need to be ready for 2012 when Huckabee runs again.. Baptist vs. Mormon, that could be fun. :D

newyearsrevolution08
08-01-2008, 03:08 PM
Won't that be a fun one LOL....

strong defense
They hate us because we are free
I play bass

the story of the huck campaign.

Oh and saying weird sadistic statements like saying people should slit their wrists, someone took a shot at obama and I think a tree hanging comment as well. The dude is crazy and should stick with being a fox commentator, it suits him well.


Keep up the good fight. God knows we'll need to be ready for 2012 when Huckabee runs again..

newyearsrevolution08
08-01-2008, 03:13 PM
And that is how I envisioned it as well. It can happen IF people just start doing it. What would happen if people stopped going to the "Formal church" and just went out witnessing to people and having bible studies at home with fellow christians?

I love the no collection plate thing as well. I wonder how the 10% tithing deal would go though? Maybe to witnessing to those unsaved instead of a church?


http://www.layhands.com/MustChristiansTitheTenPercent.htm



Churches are also subject to corruption because of the human element. I gave up going to church...you don't have to attend a church building , or become a member of any church to be a good christian. Don't forget..the church heiarchy is always having to pander to the members who have and give the dough in order for the church to run and the minister to have a job. I got sick of all that. I thought "this isn't what Jesus intended." Politics abounds in churches and sometimes I think they are the worst place for it. I like the idea of a group of brothers and sisters just going down to the beach, nothing organized and being together in prayer...singing, reading scripture etc...no minister, no elders , no priests or alter boys and no collection plate...now that's freedom! "Where two or more are gathered in my name I am there also." Jesus Said it. Tones

Soccrmastr
08-01-2008, 03:15 PM
does not, and i'm not taking the bait.

+1

georgiaboy
08-01-2008, 03:20 PM
Churches are also subject to corruption because of the human element. I gave up going to church...you don't have to attend a church building , or become a member of any church to be a good christian. Don't forget..the church heiarchy is always having to pander to the members who have and give the dough in order for the church to run and the minister to have a job. I got sick of all that. I thought "this isn't what Jesus intended." Politics abounds in churches and sometimes I think they are the worst place for it. I like the idea of a group of brothers and sisters just going down to the beach, nothing organized and being together in prayer...singing, reading scripture etc...no minister, no elders , no priests or alter boys and no collection plate...now that's freedom! "Where two or more are gathered in my name I am there also." Jesus Said it. Tones

I tend to think that both the larger church community as well as the intimate settings are both valuable. Both can be beneficial and help balance each other, as long as good lines of communication are in place. Extremism in either form can lead and has led to disastrous results.

weslinder
08-01-2008, 03:29 PM
Jonathan Mayhew on Romans 13. (http://hushmoney.org/UnlimitedSubmission_Mayhew.htm) Great Read.

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 03:33 PM
Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be.

The ends do NOT justify the means.

tonesforjonesbones
08-01-2008, 03:34 PM
Well as far as tithing goes...giving is giving. I don't think it is manditory to give to an organized "church" so to speak. Think of how much you give on a day to day basis. Maybe you gave your friend a ride somewhere, or gave a homeless man a buck on the street. I would help my daughter out with diapers for the baby..I consider all that a tithe..and I bet the things we just do for people on a daily basis , from the heart, add up to a lot more than 10% in they eyes of God. Tones

Mark
08-01-2008, 03:37 PM
Ask Christians: "How many innocent people would Jesus kill to save his own life?"

Then mention that 100,000 to 250,000 innocent people have been killed as a result of this war.

About 1,000,000 were killed by the sanctions since the first Gulf War.

I wonder how many Christians want to have then blood of over 1,000,000 innocent people on their hands
because they've supported these wars when they stand before Jesus after they pass?

If they say:

"They want to kill us, so we have to kill them first".

Then ask:

"Who are they? A few mislead Muslims?"

"As Christians, should we kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people while trying to kill the few who want to kill us?"

"What would Jesus say about that?"

"The next time you pray to Jesus , try and explain to Him why you think it's okay to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people,
and why you think He approves of that."


"If Jesus wouldn't kill innocent people to save His own life, then we as Christians shouldn't either."

Besides, for Christians, dying isn't supposed to be a bad thing, in fact, it should be a welcome thing, as we'll be with Jesus in Paradise.

And personally, I don't want to greet Him with the blood of innocents on my hands, what about you?

Matthew 7: 22,23:

"Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?

And then I will say to them openly (publicly),
I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands]."


http://www.inteldaily.com/tpllib/img.php?im=cat_172/7733.jpg&w=300&h=265

acptulsa
08-01-2008, 03:39 PM
Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be.

The ends do NOT justify the means.

Appropriate that you use bold so often. You seem unable to see the shades of gray all around us.

Computers only know yes/no, but in human society things are seldom so simple as that. Unfortunate, but so...

Perhaps the utopia you envision would actually be a utopia, but I'm not so sure. Many people have what they consider compelling evidence in the existence of God, whether these tales would ever convince you or not, and would be sorely put upon if the Soviet model of not letting them express this belief were to be imposed on them. Others just need the crutch--and would find a far more destructive crutch if this one were disallowed. Is it not libertarian to give them a break?

Mark
08-01-2008, 03:46 PM
And that is how I envisioned it as well. It can happen IF people just start doing it. What would happen if people stopped going to the "Formal church" and just went out witnessing to people and having bible studies at home with fellow christians?

That would be much more like it's supposed to be.



I love the no collection plate thing as well. I wonder how the 10% tithing deal would go though? Maybe to witnessing to those unsaved instead of a church?


http://www.layhands.com/MustChristiansTitheTenPercent.htmJesus would rather someone give 10% to feed the hungry and care for those in need than to give it to support a specific church/ministry.

Someone asked Jesus what the Father's Will was, and He said that it was for us to care for the widows and the orphans.

To care for those unable to care for themselves.

Notice that He didn't say that it was The Father's Will that we build Million dollar Church buildings.

acptulsa
08-01-2008, 03:48 PM
And personally, I don't want to greet Him with the blood of innocents on my hands, what about you?

Great post. I know there will be some who figure these humans don't count, as they are not the Chosen Ones descended from Isaac. However, I cannot imagine a truly devout person who would not get a burr under their saddle blanket or a pea under their mattress if you hit them with this impassioned logic. Nice.

georgiaboy
08-01-2008, 03:57 PM
great post. I know there will be some who figure these humans don't count, as they are not the chosen ones descended from isaac. However, i cannot imagine a truly devout person who would not get a burr under their saddle blanket or a pea under their mattress if you hit them with this impassioned logic. Nice.

qft.

georgiaboy
08-01-2008, 04:17 PM
Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be.

The ends do NOT justify the means.

So is this as far as the red pill has taken you? Maybe you've just been given the pink pill.

Here's some help with your little hobby, Ms. War on Truth:

"Our life is a long and arduous quest after Truth and the soul requires inward restfulness to attain its full height.” - Mahatma Gandhi

keep heading down that rabbit hole. it goes much deeper.

reduen
08-01-2008, 04:29 PM
Ask Christians: "How many innocent people would Jesus kill to save his own life?"

Then mention that 100,000 to 250,000 innocent people have been killed as a result of this war.

About 1,000,000 were killed by the sanctions since the first Gulf War.

I wonder how many Christians want to have then blood of over 1,000,000 innocent people on their hands
because they've supported these wars when they stand before Jesus after they pass?

If they say:

"They want to kill us, so we have to kill them first".

Then ask:

"Who are they? A few mislead Muslims?"

"As Christians, should we kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people while trying to kill the few who want to kill us?"

"What would Jesus say about that?"

"The next time you pray to Jesus , try and explain to Him why you think it's okay to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people,
and why you think He approves of that."


"If Jesus wouldn't kill innocent people to save His own life, then we as Christians shouldn't either."

Besides, for Christians, dying isn't supposed to be a bad thing, in fact, it should be a welcome thing, as we'll be with Jesus in Paradise.

And personally, I don't want to greet Him with the blood of innocents on my hands, what about you?

Matthew 7: 22,23:

"Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?

And then I will say to them openly (publicly),
I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands]."


http://www.inteldaily.com/tpllib/img.php?im=cat_172/7733.jpg&w=300&h=265


With you 100% here Mark!

I voted for Bush twice and I have since then repented of that sin... It took me some time to see how wrong this war and war in general is. I just thought of how I would feel if I had to carry pieces of one of my children around with nobody to help me and I knew right then that such a thing could never be ok with God and more specifically Jesus.

I should point out that I have at one time in my life been a sodier, (some say I still am) a murderer, an adulterer and committed many other terrible sins but I have repented of such things and been forgiven of them through the blood of Christ Jesus.

It did not take someone talking to me or persuading me in any way for me to understand the error of those ways and this war specifically. I only just had to have faith in Christ Jesus and practice the principles that He taught us.

Do unto others as I would have them do unto me. "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" Seems pretty simple to me....

TER
08-01-2008, 04:53 PM
Don't judge your fellow Christians, DeadtoSin. Pray for them.

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 04:56 PM
Appropriate that you use bold so often. You seem unable to see the shades of gray all around us.

Computers only know yes/no, but in human society things are seldom so simple as that. Unfortunate, but so...

Perhaps the utopia you envision would actually be a utopia, but I'm not so sure. Many people have what they consider compelling evidence in the existence of God, whether these tales would ever convince you or not, and would be sorely put upon if the Soviet model of not letting them express this belief were to be imposed on them. Others just need the crutch--and would find a far more destructive crutch if this one were disallowed. Is it not libertarian to give them a break?
I've not promised a Utopia.
I did not mention God.
I don't see many of them giving the libertarians any break on their tyranny.

My, you certainly do seem very quick to jump to unwarranted and erroneous conclusions. :p

Why is that?

nbhadja
08-01-2008, 05:28 PM
Bible is just a really long book that tells you how to live your life.

It does NOT go together with anarchism. It and big government go together.

I believe organized religion was created to control the masses...aka make a big government.

nbhadja
08-01-2008, 05:33 PM
“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” -- George Washington

http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/George_Washington/

There are plenty more. have fun.

The fact that the founder fathers were Christian does not mean a free society needs religion. There is a reason the founding fathers gave people religious freedom.

A lot of the founding fathers (I know not all of them, but a decent amount did) believed that black people were animals. So I guess America needs to continue to hold on to that reason as well since we are supposed to hold onto religion cause the fathers were religious?

In fact religion makes it easier to manipulate society to believe lies (having priests endorse like they do nowadays). Yes an atheist society can be manipulated as well, but its a little easier to manipulate a religious one .

newyearsrevolution08
08-01-2008, 05:36 PM
I agree,

I see a HUGE difference between organized religion and having faith in God OR a higher power of some form.

My issue is simple, with the MANY religions in this world and EVERYONE believing 100% that THEIR belief is 100% correct, how can that even be? Each religion has its own belief system separate from a simple "faith in God".

If I was born in another area I might be catholic growing up OR buddhist OR something else BUT if I was raised up to believe in ANY of them it would be HARD for me to THINK it was wrong UNTIL I was of an age to make my own informed decision.

I think religion is what messed things up, it is another method of separation and segregation for no reason WHEN all believers should be one in the same and FOCUSED and helping others meet and accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

Due to this, it makes it hard for me to agree or disagree with any form of religion because I think it is simply based on where you were born, grew up and your environment (friends, family and other local influences).




Bible is just a really long book that tells you how to live your life.

It does NOT go together with anarchism. It and big government go together.

I believe organized religion was created to control the masses...aka make a big government.

Truth Warrior
08-01-2008, 05:48 PM
I agree,

I see a HUGE difference between organized religion and having faith in God OR a higher power of some form.

My issue is simple, with the MANY religions in this world and EVERYONE believing 100% that THEIR belief is 100% correct, how can that even be? Each religion has its own belief system separate from a simple "faith in God".

If I was born in another area I might be catholic growing up OR buddhist OR something else BUT if I was raised up to believe in ANY of them it would be HARD for me to THINK it was wrong UNTIL I was of an age to make my own informed decision.

I think religion is what messed things up, it is another method of separation and segregation for no reason WHEN all believers should be one in the same and FOCUSED and helping others meet and accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

Due to this, it makes it hard for me to agree or disagree with any form of religion because I think it is simply based on where you were born, grew up and your environment (friends, family and other local influences).
The reason is divide and conquer, power and control.< IMHO > Old as the hills and still just works like a charm. ;) Just keep the ignorant sheeple fighting among themselves over trivial nonsense and about who gets to be the SHEPHERDS.

Viola! Piece of cake.

DeadtoSin
08-01-2008, 06:10 PM
Don't judge your fellow Christians, DeadtoSin. Pray for them.

Thanks bud, good advice. Mostly I think I was just hurt, but I suppose I was a bit angry with them as well. Anyway, thanks again. :D

I guess after reading this thread I'm pretty optimistic again. I'll keep going at it till I die even if nobody listens to me.

G-Wohl
08-01-2008, 06:15 PM
The amount of cognitive dissonance in these posts is astounding. What is it going to take for you guys to figure out that Christianity exists in direct opposition to freedom?

:cool: Thank science -- I thought I was alone herel

idiom
08-01-2008, 07:25 PM
What actually suprised me was how controlled even the Chrisitian Media is in the States.

One of the more widely published magazines "Charisma" eventually endorsed Huckabee. However they did a complete indepth article on every other candidate no matter how 'bad' they were. Took pages and pages.

Guess which candidates name never even got a mention in the fine print. Ron Paul is so obviously the best 'christian' candidate that he isn't even brought up.

coffeewithchess
08-01-2008, 07:36 PM
I agree a lot with the OP. I knew Huckabee was going to be a serious threat, because Huckabee was/is a very smart politician. Huckabee used the fact he was/is a preacher and would preach in churches on the weekends. RP and his campaign was the reason he did so poorly. I still can't believe that we raised over $30 million and did so poorly.

tnvoter
08-01-2008, 07:37 PM
I'm a Christian and my beliefs reinforced my support for Ron Paul---

the problem is most Christians haven't still have no idea who the heck ROn Paul even is because we're not doing our job well enough yet.

qh4dotcom
08-01-2008, 07:49 PM
Don't judge your fellow Christians, DeadtoSin. Pray for them.

Praying doesn't help...if praying helped, Baldwin would be leading in the polls....if praying helped, there would be more peace in this world.

Christians who vote for more wars like the ones who will vote for Obama and McCain are a lost cause. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" obviously has no meaning to them.

idiom
08-01-2008, 07:57 PM
Gentiles only have four rules. :D

Not killing aint one of em.

mediahasyou
08-01-2008, 07:57 PM
see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_shEnY_lcQI

me3
08-01-2008, 08:03 PM
"If Jesus wouldn't kill innocent people to save His own life, then we as Christians shouldn't either."
Kick ass Mark.

@ the OP. What is it going to take to get you to the R4R?