How?

[Godfather89]

How does one get educated without the public education system we have today? I know that most is payed via our local and state taxes. So how do we educate people with the simplest of education (Math / Literacy / Science / History) without The Department of Education in Federal Government? I know we did not always have it like this, how was it done and knowing that our society has advanced as it has today how do we continue to do so?

[brandon]

How does one get educated without the public education system we have today? I know that most is payed via our local and state taxes. So how do we educate people with the simplest of education (Math / Literacy / Science / History) without The Department of Education in Federal Government? I know we did not always have it like this, how was it done and knowing that our society has advanced as it has today how do we continue to do so?

Everyone learns differently.

I stopped attending school in the 8th grade. I taught myself a ton of stuff over the next several years and ended up in college for engineering,

If you have the drive to educate yourself, you will figure out a way. More people would have the drive for self-education if compulsory schooling wasn't forced on everyone.

[torchbearer]

You can learn everything you need from your parents.
Your parents are educated.
I plan to teach my children everything I know, especially my skills/trades.

[acptulsa]

I assume you're wondering about parents who, for one reason or another, can't home school or send their kids to private schools. Look, public schools aren't federal institutions. They are operated on the local level. All the Federal ED has really done on the primary education level is force these local school districts to hire a plethora of secretaries for the sole purpose of making sure that some portion of a city's residents' tax money makes it's way back to the community. That is all. How much does it cost local districts to jump through the "no child left behind" hoops? How much for grant proposal paperwork?

Once school systems were competitive. Suburbs gained citizens by providing better schools than their neighbors. Maybe that wasn't fair to people who didn't have the resources to pick and choose, but it sure didn't result in uniformly mediocre schools nationwide, either. Now all they want to prepare kids for is Dubya's next damned test.

What does the federal government do more efficiently than local government or the private sector? I know some things--national defense, for example--only the federal government can do at all, but what does it do efficiently?

Godfather, do you know anyone who was educated prior to 1980? Ask them how it worked. They'll probably say, "Pretty well." And welcome to the forum, btw!

[torchbearer]

I think apprenticeship and mentoring should be a valid life choice for a child.

[WRellim]

How does one get educated without the public education system we have today? I know that most is payed via our local and state taxes. So how do we educate people with the simplest of education (Math / Literacy / Science / History) without The Department of Education in Federal Government? I know we did not always have it like this, how was it done and knowing that our society has advanced as it has today how do we continue to do so?

My word... you'd think from the above that 'skoolin' was somehow important... it isn't. "Skoolin" is a form of "mass production/indoctrination" that is intended to produce a uniformly mediocre "product" while keeping young people a) out of the workforce; b) off of the streets (at least temporarily); c) away from knowledge that would allow them to become "disruptive" economic forces.

Did "Skoolin" ever teach a kid how to talk? Or do kids LEARN how to talk on their own?

Did "Skoolin" ever teach a kid how to walk? Or do kids LEARN how to walk all by themselves?


How does one become "educated" -- well about the only skill needing to be mastered is the "trick" to reading a phonetic language...

After that, you can "teach yourself" whatever you are interested in by reading books and articles written by other people. The you READ, READ, READ.

Vastly MORE information about the entire history of the human race, plus engineering, sciences, and all of the world around us , exists WITHIN the pages of a solid Encyclopedia (good ones can be bought at Used bookstores for a $5 or $10 bill these days) -- yes MUCH more info exists there THAN IN ALL of the heads of the "Teachers" plus ALL of the "textbooks" at any given "Public School" -- there literally is NO comparison.

And for all of the Technical skills that require "applied" knowledge -- whether carpentry or driving skills -- are still BEST learned in the same way children have learned to talk & walk for millenia... by observation and emulation of their elders (sometimes this is called "playing" -- but children MUST have the "observation" portion before the "emulation" part has any value -- and keeping kids locked up in a room PREVENTS the observation of actual adults);

And yes, this means the "apprenticeship" or "interning" advocated by others in this thread. Once you've acquired the basics, then you learn by doing, reading, doing, doing (or trying, failing, and retrying until you get it right).

Does it result in "perfect" knowledge? Heck no... but it does result in a far BETTER "product" than "skoolin" ever did. (Just ask Edison, Tesla, Einstein, Ben Franklin, Henry Ford, or the Wright Brothers!)

All human children start out as "auto-didacts" -- people able to "teach themselves" new skills -- this is driven OUT of most people BY the boredom, frustration, and sheer idiocy of the public schooling system.


Go read some of the works by John Taylor Gatto. Or the other books by John Holt (such as "How Children Learn" and "How Children Fail").

Go lookup the F. W. Olin University for how they are starting to "change" engineering BACK to what it was BEFORE the 20th century. (Engineering is a discipline FAR older than our "education system").

Go digging and learn about the "Unschooling" movement.


IMHO, your question was actually framed the wrong way, the TRUE question is:
How does ANYONE manage get educated (at all) WITHIN the public education system we have today?

[torchbearer]

My word... you'd think from the above that 'skoolin' was somehow important... it isn't. "Skoolin" is a form of "mass production/indoctrination" that is intended to produce a uniformly mediocre "product" while keeping young people a) out of the workforce; b) off of the streets (at least temporarily); c) away from knowledge that would allow them to become "disruptive" economic forces.

Did "Skoolin" ever teach a kid how to talk? Or do kids LEARN how to talk on their own?

Did "Skoolin" ever teach a kid how to walk? Or do kids LEARN how to walk all by themselves?


How does one become "educated" -- well about the only skill needing to be mastered is the "trick" to reading a phonetic language...

After that, you can "teach yourself" whatever you are interested in by reading books and articles written by other people. The you READ, READ, READ.

Vastly MORE information about the entire history of the human race, plus engineering, sciences, and all of the world around us , exists WITHIN the pages of a solid Encyclopedia (good ones can be bought at Used bookstores for a $5 or $10 bill these days) -- yes MUCH more info exists there THAN IN ALL of the heads of the "Teachers" plus ALL of the "textbooks" at any given "Public School" -- there literally is NO comparison.

And for all of the Technical skills that require "applied" knowledge -- whether carpentry or driving skills -- are still BEST learned in the same way children have learned to talk & walk for millenia... by observation and emulation of their elders (sometimes this is called "playing" -- but children MUST have the "observation" portion before the "emulation" part has any value -- and keeping kids locked up in a room PREVENTS the observation of actual adults);

And yes, this means the "apprenticeship" or "interning" advocated by others in this thread. Once you've acquired the basics, then you learn by doing, reading, doing, doing (or trying, failing, and retrying until you get it right).

Does it result in "perfect" knowledge? Heck no... but it does result in a far BETTER "product" than "skoolin" ever did. (Just ask Edison, Tesla, Einstein, Ben Franklin, Henry Ford, or the Wright Brothers!)

All human children start out as "auto-didacts" -- people able to "teach themselves" new skills -- this is driven OUT of most people BY the boredom, frustration, and sheer idiocy of the public schooling system.


Go read some of the works by John Taylor Gatto. Or the other books by John Holt (such as "How Children Learn" and "How Children Fail").

Go lookup the F. W. Olin University for how they are starting to "change" engineering BACK to what it was BEFORE the 20th century. (Engineering is a discipline FAR older than our "education system").

Go digging and learn about the "Unschooling" movement.


IMHO, your question was actually framed the wrong way, the TRUE question is:
How does ANYONE manage get educated (at all) WITHIN the public education system we have today?

John Taylor Gatto spoke at our state LP convention in 2006.
He has great insight into the public school system since he taught in it for 30 years.
I think his book is called "dumbing down of america" which includes the history of public schools.
Goes back to Prussia and their desire to create a manageable and predictable working class.

[Godfather89]

It is my hope that you people are not taken back by this, I to would prefer the autodidact way of learning over one uniform public education.

My story went like this:

After graduating High School I came out completely unaware of so many fields of knowledge. Since coming out of High School I have sought to educate myself over things that I am interested in while attending community college.

But one of you brought up an important point: What if the parents are to busy to teach, what if you live in rural America where there are things you don't want to learn or what if you are to poor to get the materials necessary to educate yourself (e.g. books). I remember watching a TV show and it was the story of a person who didnt go to college but he had experience. If I think I have understood what you guy's are saying it is that if they're is a will their is a way!

In some regards I am coming straight out of the matrix of thinking that we need government to depend on Government to teach most American's today. I know that this is un-American we should not be dependent upon anyone but ourselves to get what we want. Im just trying to break free from the old way of thinking

[acptulsa]

But one of you brought up an important point: What if the parents are to busy to teach, what if you live in rural America where there are things you don't want to learn or what if you are to poor to get the materials necessary to educate yourself (e.g. books).

Ain't the internet a wonderful, revolutionary innovation?

[LibertyEagle]

Let the states, communities and parents handle education. We got by without a federal Department of Education for a long time and in fact, back then, our kids were rating much higher on math and science skills, than today. What the Department of Education does is design programs such as No Child Left Behind and Outcome-Based Education and then force them down our throats, in an effort to micromanage how our children are educated and what they do for a living. ie. Creating little drones.

The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

Author: "Charlotte Iserbyt is the consummate whistleblower! Iserbyt served as Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement (OERI), U.S. Department of Education, during the first Reagan Administration, where she first blew the whistle on a major technology initiative which would control curriculum in America's classrooms."

[Godfather89]

Ain't the internet a wonderful, revolutionary innovation?

Yes true, but if your to poor to get hold of books how are you going to get the internet let alone a computer?

[torchbearer]

Yes true, but if your to poor to get hold of books how are you going to get the internet let alone a computer?

library. every town i've been to provides free books and internet access.

[Godfather89]

Wow, more socialist propaganda from from the collective according to this book and the "dumbing down" site!

[torchbearer]

Wow, more socialist propaganda from from the collective according to this book and the "dumbing down" site!

:confused:

[pinkmandy]

If you cannot envision ways for children to learn outside of the govt schools then the govt schools have been successful. ;) There are thousands of ways to learn, every day, all the time and there are already threads here where many of these ideas are discussed.

You might want to consider defining what you like in education- what does it mean to you? That's how you start. Then look at your avg 18 yo and tell me if he/she is truly "educated". By avg I mean just that- I know there are many young people here on RPF that are, imo, well above avg in their thought processes and ability to think critically. Very impressive.

[micahnelson]

Federally Managed education does not equal state or city schools. A school should be formed between parents, teachers, and students. In the case of a school founded by a local government, the voters become involved through school boards.

Taking it further than this, especially taking it to the federal level, creates a serious mess like we see today. Public Education doesn't have to be poor education, but private education will always be superior.

I support a voucher system to begin the transition away from state managed education. If schools are competing for vouchers, there is room for the market to act.

[lucius]

How does one get educated without the public education system we have today? I know that most is payed via our local and state taxes. So how do we educate people with the simplest of education (Math / Literacy / Science / History) without The Department of Education in Federal Government? I know we did not always have it like this, how was it done and knowing that our society has advanced as it has today how do we continue to do so?

Parents must teach their children how to read phonetically.

Very simple, set your child in your lap, pick a book with few pictures, slowly read out loud while underlining each word with your finger. Early in the 19th century, America had the highest literacy rate in the world and this was how it was done. Books are the stepping stones of civilization.

Few other suggestions, throw that damn tv out of the house, structure your life so you don't have 'strangers' raising your kids, and keep researching this topic of compulsory education. What you may discover is far more insidious than almost any other bondage you can contemplate--how to systematically retard an individual's self-determination for control & profit.


I feel ashamed that so many of us cannot imagine a better way to do things than locking children up all day in cells instead of letting them grow up knowing their families, mingling with the world, assuming real obligations, striving to be independent and self-reliant and free." - John Taylor Gatto

Read 'The Underground History of American Education' by John Taylor Gatto, whole book online here: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

[liberteebell]

My word... you'd think from the above that 'skoolin' was somehow important... it isn't. "Skoolin" is a form of "mass production/indoctrination" that is intended to produce a uniformly mediocre "product" while keeping young people a) out of the workforce; b) off of the streets (at least temporarily); c) away from knowledge that would allow them to become "disruptive" economic forces.

Did "Skoolin" ever teach a kid how to talk? Or do kids LEARN how to talk on their own?

Did "Skoolin" ever teach a kid how to walk? Or do kids LEARN how to walk all by themselves?


How does one become "educated" -- well about the only skill needing to be mastered is the "trick" to reading a phonetic language...

After that, you can "teach yourself" whatever you are interested in by reading books and articles written by other people. The you READ, READ, READ.

Vastly MORE information about the entire history of the human race, plus engineering, sciences, and all of the world around us , exists WITHIN the pages of a solid Encyclopedia (good ones can be bought at Used bookstores for a $5 or $10 bill these days) -- yes MUCH more info exists there THAN IN ALL of the heads of the "Teachers" plus ALL of the "textbooks" at any given "Public School" -- there literally is NO comparison.

And for all of the Technical skills that require "applied" knowledge -- whether carpentry or driving skills -- are still BEST learned in the same way children have learned to talk & walk for millenia... by observation and emulation of their elders (sometimes this is called "playing" -- but children MUST have the "observation" portion before the "emulation" part has any value -- and keeping kids locked up in a room PREVENTS the observation of actual adults);

And yes, this means the "apprenticeship" or "interning" advocated by others in this thread. Once you've acquired the basics, then you learn by doing, reading, doing, doing (or trying, failing, and retrying until you get it right).

Does it result in "perfect" knowledge? Heck no... but it does result in a far BETTER "product" than "skoolin" ever did. (Just ask Edison, Tesla, Einstein, Ben Franklin, Henry Ford, or the Wright Brothers!)

All human children start out as "auto-didacts" -- people able to "teach themselves" new skills -- this is driven OUT of most people BY the boredom, frustration, and sheer idiocy of the public schooling system.


Go read some of the works by John Taylor Gatto. Or the other books by John Holt (such as "How Children Learn" and "How Children Fail").

Go lookup the F. W. Olin University for how they are starting to "change" engineering BACK to what it was BEFORE the 20th century. (Engineering is a discipline FAR older than our "education system").

Go digging and learn about the "Unschooling" movement.


IMHO, your question was actually framed the wrong way, the TRUE question is:
How does ANYONE manage get educated (at all) WITHIN the public education system we have today?


This is one of the best posts on education I have ever read! For you young-uns, make note of what WRellim says here.

Without question, the best "teachers" in my life weren't teachers at all. They were my parents and other family members, plus a number of other folks I've learned from through the years most of whom were high school dropouts.

And indeed, with my own children, they've learned more hanging out with me than they've ever learned in school. This year was a real eye opener--my kids learned more about the constitution, natural law, liberty and American history than I could ever have hoped for in my lifetime. I never imagined that we'd be debating political issues and discussing the bill of rights, etc. over our evening meal! :cool::D:cool:

Did they learn any of this in skool??? Aw, HELL NAW! They learned it from overhearing my conversations, asking questions, reading and participating in several political events. My 13 year old daughter even "took on" her socialist Western Civ teacher in front of the class over an issue with which she disagreed (I was soooo proud!!). :cool: :D

Someone mentioned parents not having enough time to be around to teach their children. Yes, thanks to the fed.gov and their social policies, parents aren't around as much. Not to mention the fact that we've received a societal brainwashing that the Almighty State should control children from cradle to grave. Parents aren't qualified and need not apply unless they have the "appropriate" State Sanctified documentation. Look what was done to homeschoolers in California.

What you'll never learn in publik skool (unless you're really lucky) is reasoning, logic, critical thinking, problem solving, practical life skills and good 'ol common sense.

I opted for private skool for my kids and have found it lacking as well. Maybe there are good private schools but ours is little more than publik skool on crack, and you get to pay out the nose for it; same text materials and curriculum (boring, expensive, useless and full of social engineering) but they just cover more material at a faster pace, require more busywork so it appears that they're educating and obsess about SAT scores and who gets into what prestigious college. I guess I should be happy that our skool doesn't resemble a prison, unlike the local publik high skools. :eek:

Publik skool taught me to hate reading (only became a voracious reader as a young adult, after high school) and, sadly, private skool is doing the same for my children. I was totally bored in skool so it comes as no surprise to me that my kids feel the same. I'm having a really difficult time trying to motivate them knowing precisely how they feel. Thus, I am now toying with the idea of taking them out of school, at least for some period of time (my mother is having a stroke over this) and trying some other methods of learning and re-developing some auto-didactics.

Most insidious of the education system in general, beyond the social engineering, is how boy children are treated, conditioned and "educated". I hate that they're expected to act like compliant little girls, there is neither recognition nor acceptance of the fact that boys are hard-wired to be active, physical and hands-on and that their interests are completely different from girls'. And boys who don't conform to this ridiculous "standard" are labeled ADD or ADHD and drugged so they become zombies. My son is a case in point: if I hear one more teacher tell me that he won't sit still and pay attention (he pays rapt attention to things he's interested in) or have to have one more conference about my son's (rather excellent and detailed, but verboten in skool) drawings of weapons, I think I shall scream. The education system is doing him and most boys, no favors at all.

Sorry for the long rant but this is one of my favorite subjects for discussion.

There's some great advice on this thread. Bottom line: never let skooling get in the way of your personal education.

[liberteebell]

Federally Managed education does not equal state or city schools. A school should be formed between parents, teachers, and students. In the case of a school founded by a local government, the voters become involved through school boards.

Taking it further than this, especially taking it to the federal level, creates a serious mess like we see today. Public Education doesn't have to be poor education, but private education will always be superior.

I support a voucher system to begin the transition away from state managed education. If schools are competing for vouchers, there is room for the market to act.


With vouchers, we're still at the mercy of The Almighty State. Vouchers are tantamount to asking permission from The Almighty State, for where we want to send our children to school. That's after our tax dollars are laundered through DC.

And with that voucher money, conveniently labeled "federal funds", there are purse strings attached. Consider the implications if someone wanted to send their kid to a religious school; what if it wasn't a "mainstream, approved by the state" school? What if the school you wanted to send your kid to didn't want to comply with the federal NCLB requirements for graduation and wanted instead to teach an alternative curriculum? Heck, what if your school wanted to throw out the current socialist textbooks and teach a Liberty curriculum? Think the feds would approve vouchers???

Why not abolish the DoE and get the feds completely out of education. And quit taxing us so damn much. Let the true Free Market, along with parents, decide what works and what doesn't and let parents alone make the decision for what's best for their children.

I am not against public schools as long as they are managed at as local a level as possible and not subject to the cumbersome and ridiculous federal regulations.

[pinkmandy]

LB- I hear ya on the way boys are treated. I have 2 sons and the oldest did go to ps for about 6 months before I yanked him out of there and never looked back. I was advised that my extremely bright and only moderately active (moderately by comparison with my second son, lol) should be evaluated for ADD and possibly medicated because he didn't pay attention in class. Okay, he was 5 and already knew everything the woman was trying to teach. Who wouldn't be bored to tears? And what qualifications did she have to try to slap such a diagnosis on my son? For being a BOY? I'm pretty certain they'd have my second son highly medicated and in special ed...

Boys and girls are different. In general, boys lag behind on reading but grasp math earlier. Schools make no room for this difference. Instead, since many boys aren't "primed" to read well until age 7 or so, they spend their time feeling insecure until they are shuffled off into remedial reading when they *could* have been spending that time focused on their natural talents and abilities...I guess that's true of all children, boys and girls, and schools just don't account for the different genders or individual development. What they do to children who don't fit the model profile they have set up disgusts me.

[tribute_13]

You can learn everything you need from your parents.
Your parents are educated.
I plan to teach my children everything I know, especially my skills/trades.

If I relied on my parents to teach me, I'd be knee deep in drugs, alcohol, and shit right now.

Not the best of advice for some people.

[torchbearer]

If I relied on my parents to teach me, I'd be knee deep in drugs, alcohol, and shit right now.

Not the best of advice for some people.

find a mentor. its not that hard.

[tribute_13]

I have one already, I was just saying that, I wouldn't be in the best of situations if my parents taught me what they knew. lol
My Mentor- Dr. Robert M. Price (http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/)

[torchbearer]

I have one already, I was just saying that, I wouldn't be in the best of situations if my parents taught me what they knew. lol
My Mentor- Dr. Robert M. Price (http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/)

I posted two possible routes of education.
Your learned your first words and first steps from your parents, but it they fall short after that, apprenticeship is a great route to learning.

[micahnelson]

With vouchers, we're still at the mercy of The Almighty State. Vouchers are tantamount to asking permission from The Almighty State, for where we want to send our children to school. That's after our tax dollars are laundered through DC.

Local taxes pay for the majority of schools.

While I believe the free market can fix these problems, when there has been so much intervention, the intervention needs to be phased out slowly to avoid losing a generation of two while we get our collective acts together. Also, I don't believe parents are educated enough to make the right choices for education.

I look at it this way, if you take a hostage you want to be released, but if you are in a speeding car you wouldn't want to be thrown out immediately. The best situation would be for the car to be slowed down, to be untied, for the door to be opened, and to be give enough time to get out.

I think we need to begin injecting market principles into education.

1) Eliminate the NEA. People say they want national standards, but they dont mean it. parents in kansas want their kids to learn the bible. Parents in LA want their kids to learn spanish. Parents in Florida want their kids to learn...oranges. I dunno. Keep it local.

2) Vouchers. If you have a kid, you get a voucher. Private and public schools can accept them. Suddenly a better performing school will get a bigger chunk of the pie. Maybe your kid learns "hands-on", maybe your kid is a sports enthusiast, maybe he is a wrote learner- find the best school for them and send them there.

3) Watch as bad ideas fail, and good ideas get copied.

4) When the good teachers, schools, and ideas float to the top it will be easier to discuss transitioning away from a voucher system- though many communities may decide to provide this as a way to insure an educated populace. I know I would support it under the conditions I described- no federal standards and competition between schools.

[noxagol]

Phase the vouchers out as well over 24 year period. That's enough time for TWO generations to get edjoomicated.

[Godfather89]

:confused:

According to this book and website the children are exposed with propaganda.

[Godfather89]

Parents must teach their children how to read phonetically.

Very simple, set your child in your lap, pick a book with few pictures, slowly read out loud while underlining each word with your finger. Early in the 19th century, America had the highest literacy rate in the world and this was how it was done. Books are the stepping stones of civilization.

Few other suggestions, throw that damn tv out of the house, structure your life so you don't have 'strangers' raising your kids, and keep researching this topic of compulsory education. What you may discover is far more insidious than almost any other bondage you can contemplate--how to systematically retard an individual's self-determination for control & profit.



Read 'The Underground History of American Education' by John Taylor Gatto, whole book online here: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

Yeah, I would believe it all, more of the same NWO Bullshit... Remember people are ignorant, but for virtue sake lets look back to God than, when Christ was Crucified and suffering he said "Father have mercy for they know not what they do!" Have compassion and wake up those who sleep (the ignorant and dumbed down).

The entertainment industry and the poor education together does not help...

[mediahasyou]

I prefer the voucher system. It's a proven winner here in Milwaukee and over in Europe.

[RSLudlum]

Everyone learns differently.

I stopped attending school in the 8th grade. I taught myself a ton of stuff over the next several years and ended up in college for engineering,

If you have the drive to educate yourself, you will figure out a way. More people would have the drive for self-education if compulsory schooling wasn't forced on everyone.


So, you didn't let schooling get in the way of your education....way to go
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/gfx_RedWhiteBlue/icons/icon14.gif

[NaT805]

How does one get educated without the public education system we have today? I know that most is payed via our local and state taxes. So how do we educate people with the simplest of education (Math / Literacy / Science / History) without The Department of Education in Federal Government? I know we did not always have it like this, how was it done and knowing that our society has advanced as it has today how do we continue to do so?

They would pay to have their kids to go to private schools.

[Nicketas]

Educational home study courses on any topic you can think of are already being sold by private companies on the internet, for far less than the cost of formal education....

And usually of higher quality, like in the case of The Good Old Dr. Paul Himself.

[ThisCharmingAzn]

"There's more to life than books you know, but not much more." - Morrissey

Read read read!

[Godfather89]

They would pay to have their kids to go to private schools.

That's sounds great, their competing would hopefully bring in more customers and lower taxes and actually make teachers work instead of do nothing but use the title to get benefits! What if however you cant afford? I guess self-education is the way, ;) including homeschooling.


Educational home study courses on any topic you can think of are already being sold by private companies on the internet, for far less than the cost of formal education....

And usually of higher quality, like in the case of The Good Old Dr. Paul Himself.

Where are these websites?