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cska80
07-31-2008, 11:28 AM
Executive Director of the RI Republican party is running against M. Teresa Paiva Weed in District 13 which is Newport and Jamestown. Paiva Weed is the State Senate Majority Leader who has refused to allow a vote on the E-Verify System in Rhode Island two times now. Donna Perry is running specifically to unseat her in the hopes of getting the E-Verify System implimented in Rhode Island next year! All Ron Paul supporters in RI need to support her!

Website @ http://www.donnaperryforsenate.com/.

cska80
07-31-2008, 11:28 AM
I put this here as well because the state forums don't seem to get much traffic whatsoever.

Kade
07-31-2008, 11:37 AM
Are you a Perry plant?

I don't like the Weed... but... seriously... Perry=E-verify

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 11:40 AM
I sit 5 feet away from Perry's campaign director.

Why are we supposed to support E-Verify? I find it to be a bad step in the wrong direction.

cska80
07-31-2008, 11:42 AM
I've been a member here for a long time. I'm for anyone who's going to not only break up the democrat monopoly but fight against illegal immigration in Rhode Island. A plant? You really think a Republican in Rhode Island has the money to spend on plants? LawlzorROFLcopt0rz0rz.


I sit 5 feet away from Perry's campaign director.

Why are we supposed to support E-Verify? I find it to be a bad step in the wrong direction.

What's wrong with E-Verify?

Kade
07-31-2008, 11:43 AM
I sit 5 feet away from Perry's campaign director.

Why are we supposed to support E-Verify? I find it to be a bad step in the wrong direction.

+8,000

Exactly. I would definately support a Ron Paul Republican in this state, but E-verify is nothing Ron Paul would support... it is an invasion of privacy, at it's best.

Kade
07-31-2008, 11:44 AM
I've been a member here for a long time. I'm for anyone who's going to not only break up the democrat monopoly but fight against illegal immigration in Rhode Island. A plant? You really think a Republican in Rhode Island has the money to spend on plants? LawlzorROFLcopt0rz0rz.



What's wrong with E-Verify?

A plant can be a volunteer for a campaign, like Tones.

Kade
07-31-2008, 11:45 AM
I sit 5 feet away from Perry's campaign director.


No...tell me....no....

I thought it was some guy named Matt Frank...

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 11:45 AM
I would support E-Verify for people who have been arrested. If you aren't being accused of a crime, you shouldn't be forced by law to submit to a check like that.

Once you have been arrested, getting scanned seems to make sense. The concern would be frivolous arrests, but I don't think a police department would expose itself to that sort of risk.

cska80
07-31-2008, 11:46 AM
+8,000

Exactly. I would definately support a Ron Paul Republican in this state, but E-verify is nothing Ron Paul would support... it is an invasion of privacy, at it's best.

Oh so let me get this straight. Your employer must not know your SS# right? You must have never given your SS# to anyone for anything right? It's a big invasion of privacy to have an employer simply enter a SS# into a website and in a few seconds receive information on if someone is a legal citizen, right?

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 11:47 AM
Oh so let me get this straight. Your employer must not know your SS# right? You must have never given your SS# to anyone for anything right? It's a big invasion of privacy to have an employer simply enter a SS# into a website and in a few seconds receive information on if someone is a legal citizen, right?

Yes.

Kade
07-31-2008, 11:48 AM
Oh so let me get this straight. Your employer must not know your SS# right? You must have never given your SS# to anyone for anything right? It's a big invasion of privacy to have an employer simply enter a SS# into a website and in a few seconds receive information on if someone is a legal citizen, right?

Yes.

cska80
07-31-2008, 11:49 AM
This is like arguing with a Liberal. To say you've never used your SS# for anything in absurd. You guys win. E-Verify is bad.

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 11:55 AM
This is like arguing with a Liberal. To say you've never used your SS# for anything in absurd. You guys win. E-Verify is bad.

Its not bad, its only bad when it is forced on presumably law abiding citizens doing something that is not illegal.

I am ok with checking citizenship when a law has been broken- after all you have to see what laws apply to them, or when someone has been charged with a crime. I don't think we should have to submit to a citizenship check to have a job.

On a more practical sense, if illegals cannot work do you think they will leave? No they will go on welfare. Will they use E-verify for welfare? no of course not.

So all these illegals unable to work, now working underground or using welfare.

I support E-verify when getting financial assistance and when charged with a crime. If I am not interacting with the state, I shouldn't be forced to submit to a search. It is a 5th amendment violation, or at least a breath away from one.

Kade
07-31-2008, 11:57 AM
This is like arguing with a Liberal. To say you've never used your SS# for anything in absurd. You guys win. E-Verify is bad.

I never said I didn't use my SS for anything. It shouldn't be required to identify people...

My point of contention is that you seemed to portray Perry as a Ron Paul Republican, when in reality, such an ultra-invasive utility such as E-verify is strictly against the principles of the free market and personal privacy. I don't think Ron Paul would support such an endeavor.

Kade
07-31-2008, 11:58 AM
I am ok with checking citizenship when a law has been broken- after all you have to see what laws apply to them, or when someone has been charged with a crime. I don't think we should have to submit to a citizenship check to have a job.

On a more practical sense, if illegals cannot work do you think they will leave? No they will go on welfare. Will they use E-verify for welfare? no of course not.

So all these illegals unable to work, now working underground or using welfare.

I support E-verify when getting financial assistance and when charged with a crime. If I am not interacting with the state, I shouldn't be forced to submit to a search. It is a 5th amendment violation, or at least a breath away from one.

+1.

Absolutely. And Rhode Island is a welfare state if there ever was one.

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 12:10 PM
This is like arguing with a Liberal. To say you've never used your SS# for anything in absurd. You guys win. E-Verify is bad.


Well, you heard my response... do you still support providing evidence to the government that can be used against you without being charged with a crime or enrolling for an optional government program?

cska80
07-31-2008, 12:15 PM
Well, you heard my response... do you still support providing evidence to the government that can be used against you without being charged with a crime or enrolling for an optional government program?

I said you guys win. Providing my SS#, which I do anyways, to an employer, and then having them provide my SS# to the government, which the government already has since they GAVE it to ME, is not, IMHO, providing evidence to the government that can be used against me.

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 12:18 PM
I said you guys win. Providing my SS#, which I do anyways, to an employer, and then having them provide my SS# to the government, which the government already has since they GAVE it to ME, is not, IMHO, providing evidence to the government that can be used against me.

Its not about winning. They are collecting information that will be used against you, in this case, your social security number.

Why do you think E-Verify should be used on law abiding citizens who are not attempting to take anything from the state funds BEFORE it is used on criminals or welfare recipients?

I honestly don't think most people in RI have thought this through and I wanted to see if there is an angle I haven't looked at. I just want to know why people support it.

cska80
07-31-2008, 12:25 PM
Read this as carefully as possible.....

They....are...collecting...information (SS#) <----------- SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER...that the GOVERNMENT....already...knows......

All this is....is a CHECK....so the employer can see if someone has a stolen SS# or a fake one.

Once again....the government ALREADY knows our SS#.....if I give it to my employer, what is the difference?

I really don't think you're seeing my side of the argument. I can see an unintended consequence of this being...if down the road the real ID act is implimented and they say OK now you must verify peoples real ID's or they can't work...but giving an employer your SS#? They already know mine. The Government already knows it...

Kludge
07-31-2008, 12:29 PM
Once again....the government ALREADY knows our SS#.....if I give it to my employer, what is the difference?

You weren't kidding about some libertarians only fearing the gov't, were you, Kade?

cska80
07-31-2008, 12:30 PM
You weren't kidding about some libertarians only fearing the gov't, were you, Kade?

What does that have to do with what you quoted from me?

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 12:49 PM
Read this as carefully as possible.....

They....are...collecting...information (SS#) <----------- SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER...that the GOVERNMENT....already...knows......

All this is....is a CHECK....so the employer can see if someone has a stolen SS# or a fake one.

Once again....the government ALREADY knows our SS#.....if I give it to my employer, what is the difference?

I really don't think you're seeing my side of the argument. I can see an unintended consequence of this being...if down the road the real ID act is implimented and they say OK now you must verify peoples real ID's or they can't work...but giving an employer your SS#? They already know mine. The Government already knows it...

Don't treat me like an imbecile, and I will afford you the same gratuity.

I accept the fact that you do not view this to be a violation of your rights, but understand that some people feel differently than you.

What do you think E-Verify will accomplish? Do you believe that goal could not be better accomplished by checking welfare applicants or those charged with crimes?

cska80
07-31-2008, 12:56 PM
You're not addressing what I'm saying, at all. Where did I get my SS#? The government gave it to me. When I apply for a job, I list my SS# on my application. When I do my taxes, my SS# is on there. The government knows my SS#. My employer knows my SS#. If an employer takes my SS#, which they and the government already have, and I am a legal citizen (which is true), and they put that SS# that I gave them and the government already has to put through a government database of SS#'s to see if mine is fake or stolen, that is not a violation of my rights.

I won't treat you like an imbecile if you stop ignoring a key part of my argument. My SS# is NOT evidence that the government or my employer WOULD NOT have if the E-Verify system were not implimented. Whether or not it's implimented, they have my SS#. This is just a check to see if it's fake or stolen. Can you address that?

As for the welfare system, yes! Impliment E-Verify for welfare. E-Verify for inmates such as at the ACI would not be needed as far as I know, since ICE apparently has agents either posted there or assigned to check inmates in a regular basis.

The point of getting this one piece of legislation through was to get our foot in the door. It would have been a first step.

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 01:16 PM
My SS# is NOT evidence that the government or my employer WOULD NOT have if the E-Verify system were not implimented. Whether or not it's implimented, they have my SS#. This is just a check to see if it's fake or stolen. Can you address that?

As for the welfare system, yes! Impliment E-Verify for welfare. E-Verify for inmates such as at the ACI would not be needed as far as I know, since ICE apparently has agents either posted there or assigned to check inmates in a regular basis.



The reason it is a violation of rights is the intended purpose. If you are being asked to submit a piece of information to the government for the purpose of checking to see if you have broken the law.

Your SS is normally submitted for tax purposes (which is a whole separate constitutional argument :)). With E-Verify, you are being asked to submit it for the purpose of a criminal investigation. Is it like the gestapo knocking down your door? No of course not. It is a small violation of our rights. Right now they are only checking to make sure you are here legally. Maybe they will use it later to help creditors find you, or look up a criminal record you had in your past- the point is this- E-Verify puts on the books the fact that a government organization can demand a private institution to collect information for the purpose of criminal investigation. For that reason, it is a bad precedent.

Illegal immigrants don't come to RI for the good jobs, they come for the welfare in many cases. For that reason, I believe it is reasonable to ask for a citizenship check when applying for government financial assistance.

Anyone charged with a crime, assuming they were arrested following due process, could also be checked. Most of the horror stories we hear on talk radio come from people who have been arrested multiple time. If E-Verify is so perfect, then we can skip the ICE agents and just E-Verify everyone who gets arrested.

So you understand that I have responded to your issues.

I realize the government issued my SS#, and that the employer already has it. I do not support making that number available for criminal investigation, or allowing the state to force a business to collect evidence.

Now I ask you, would you agree that using E-Verify on those charged with Crimes, and those applying for financial aid would do a better job of catching the undesirable illegal immigrant population in RI?

Why is it justifiable to place the burden on RI Businesses in the face of such high unemployment and low profitability. Will this help or hurt RI employers? Won't they just cross the border to MA or CT?

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 01:39 PM
bump for response

cska80
07-31-2008, 01:56 PM
I'd rather them cross the border to MA and CT. Let them bare the burden. They do take good jobs that would pay well if it were done legally. My friend works for a company here in RI that does contruction work I guess you could say, and companies working at the same sites as him have ICE coming atleast once a week to pick up illegals. Companies aren't punished, nor are they asked to do anything about it.

Yes I agree using E-Verify for criminals and those applying for financial aid would do a better job. The problem is a lot of them not only take financial aid but they also take jobs. Implimenting this for jobs would be much easier than implimenting this for welfare here as we're not able to touch anything related to welfare.

I don't care if RI businesses lose cheap labor because they have to obey the law. If you mean that simply going to a website and clicking a few times for 30 seconds to check a SS# is a burden, I don't agree.

There are a lot of instances in which your social security number is required. There is nothing they can do with a SS# that they can't do already if they want to. It's simply a check on fraud. When my cell phone company asked for my SS# to set up a plan, I did not refuse because they were trying to violate my rights.

Dry up the jobs. Dry up the welfare. They'll leave. I still don't think E-Verify violates my rights so I'll agree to disagree. As for having a SS# to begin with for taxes....yes that is a whole other argument but I doubt we're getting rid of SS#'s any time soon.

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 02:23 PM
Do you think we'll still have SS numbers when Social Security Checks start bouncing, lol.

I agree that welfare is untouchable in RI, but I think unless we can touch that issue- no system will have any serious effect on stopping illegal immigration.

Cell phone companies take your SS number to check your credit. They don't, as far as I know, collect the information as part of a criminal investigation. That was my point about the slipperly slope.

Do you have a problem with the government forcing a private entity to collect evidence for a criminal investigation? I realize it only takes a few seconds, but that doesn't change what it is. A finger print check could only take a few minutes- but that doesn't mean it isn't collecting evidence.

I don't like making allowances for criminal behavior, but we have to understand that if we implement this companies will just cross the border into MA or CT. This will be bad for us in the long run as we lose revenue. We are already 48 out of the 50 worst states to do business in.

I realize we probably won't agree on this issue. How do you feel about Real ID and Welfare reform? It would be nice to get some sort of a RI Liberty Coalition together.

cska80
07-31-2008, 04:42 PM
I'd love to be part of something like that. As for welfare reform...my kind of welfare reform is getting rid of it. My employment allows me to see what the welfare state has done to people, and what they have done to the system. I am not for the real ID in any form. We need some sort of organization that envelopes all of the small RI groups/movements like OCG and RIILE.

micahnelson
07-31-2008, 05:13 PM
I agree about welfare. I am all for charity- when it isn't collected by taxes assessors.

Kade
08-05-2008, 08:10 AM
the reason it is a violation of rights is the intended purpose. If you are being asked to submit a piece of information to the government for the purpose of checking to see if you have broken the law.

Your ss is normally submitted for tax purposes (which is a whole separate constitutional argument :)). With e-verify, you are being asked to submit it for the purpose of a criminal investigation. Is it like the gestapo knocking down your door? No of course not. It is a small violation of our rights. Right now they are only checking to make sure you are here legally. Maybe they will use it later to help creditors find you, or look up a criminal record you had in your past- the point is this- e-verify puts on the books the fact that a government organization can demand a private institution to collect information for the purpose of criminal investigation. For that reason, it is a bad precedent.

illegal immigrants don't come to ri for the good jobs, they come for the welfare in many cases. For that reason, i believe it is reasonable to ask for a citizenship check when applying for government financial assistance.

Anyone charged with a crime, assuming they were arrested following due process, could also be checked. Most of the horror stories we hear on talk radio come from people who have been arrested multiple time. If e-verify is so perfect, then we can skip the ice agents and just e-verify everyone who gets arrested.

So you understand that i have responded to your issues.

I realize the government issued my ss#, and that the employer already has it. I do not support making that number available for criminal investigation, or allowing the state to force a business to collect evidence.

Now i ask you, would you agree that using e-verify on those charged with crimes, and those applying for financial aid would do a better job of catching the undesirable illegal immigrant population in ri?

Why is it justifiable to place the burden on ri businesses in the face of such high unemployment and low profitability. Will this help or hurt ri employers? Won't they just cross the border to ma or ct?

t.k.o.