Cheap .223 Ammo

[wreed]

Hell guys, unsure as to if this is posted before.

Buds gun shop has cheap .223 ammo going for 6.99 a box. It beats my local store prices. So I figured I'd share it with you guys aswell.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/656_658/products_id/74001

They also have 9mm ammo made by same company for $13 a box.

[Luft97]

That is a fairly decent price. PMC is Korean made ammo I have 1000 Rds of the stuff I can't complain it shoots just fine. Works out to about .35 cents a round.

[GunnyFreedom]

Be advised that if you have a 1:7 or faster twistrate barrel, 55gr is too light and will overstabalize, causing real accuracy issues at ranges over 300 yards. If you have a 1:12 or the more common 1:9, these should be just fine at whatever range.

[B964]

That is OK price. Last .223 I bought was same PMC bronze. It was .33 per round when buying 1000.

[GunnyFreedom]

55gr is great for plinking, varmints, and targets. 62gr is the minimum you should use if you have to fend off 2 legged wolves. 69gr is the max you should use if you have a 1:9 twistrate barrel. I have a 1:7 twistrate, and I stock 75gr because it has absolutely excellent terminal ballistics, and far superior knockdown.

If you are using your .223/5.56 to defend against wolves of the 2-legged variety, I wholeheartedly recommend going with a faster twist and the heaviest round that is reliable.

US Spec-Ops teams in the sandbox have been using 77gr with spectacular success over the 62gr rounds. The M4 is at a serious disadvantage with it's short barrel, unable to develop the muzzle velocity needed to make a round as light as the 62gr and specially the 55gr particularly lethal. Anecdotal reports claim that 62gr rounds can actually get stopped by heavy clothing at 400 yards, when fired from an M4 short barreled rifle.

The 77gr round seems to have solved that issue from the M4, with the round's weight making up for the lack of muzzle velocity, producing lethal terminal ballistics from the M4 as far out as 600 yards.

Even though I have a full length (20 inch) barrel, I went seeking a heavier round because I wanted as much energy as possible on impact, regardless. I settled on the 75gr round, because the 77gr round just BARELY fits in the magazine. The 75gr is just shorter enough to ensure that I won't have feed malfunctions due to round length catching on a mag lip.

I guess what I'm saying here is, use the 55gr for varminting and plinking and target practice, because it's a lot cheaper. Fire enough of a heavy round (69gr if you have a 1:9 barrel, and you probably do) to learn your sight settings at range, because it has different ballistics than the 55gr. Then keep a stock of your heavier round for if/when you have to defend the homestead against something bigger than a rabbit.

In other words, I wouldn't rely on 55gr for home defense. The 55gr round was one of the reasons the M-16 developed such a terrible reputation in Vietnam.

[JohnMeridith]

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/223_ammunition.html

the armory is the cheapest i have found for ammo. I buy my 5.7 and 7.62 there

[Cowlesy]

www.ammoman.com

[stilltrying]

55gr is great for plinking, varmints, and targets. 62gr is the minimum you should use if you have to fend off 2 legged wolves. 69gr is the max you should use if you have a 1:9 twistrate barrel. I have a 1:7 twistrate, and I stock 75gr because it has absolutely excellent terminal ballistics, and far superior knockdown.

If you are using your .223/5.56 to defend against wolves of the 2-legged variety, I wholeheartedly recommend going with a faster twist and the heaviest round that is reliable.

US Spec-Ops teams in the sandbox have been using 77gr with spectacular success over the 62gr rounds. The M4 is at a serious disadvantage with it's short barrel, unable to develop the muzzle velocity needed to make a round as light as the 62gr and specially the 55gr particularly lethal. Anecdotal reports claim that 62gr rounds can actually get stopped by heavy clothing at 400 yards, when fired from an M4 short barreled rifle.

The 77gr round seems to have solved that issue from the M4, with the round's weight making up for the lack of muzzle velocity, producing lethal terminal ballistics from the M4 as far out as 600 yards.

Even though I have a full length (20 inch) barrel, I went seeking a heavier round because I wanted as much energy as possible on impact, regardless. I settled on the 75gr round, because the 77gr round just BARELY fits in the magazine. The 75gr is just shorter enough to ensure that I won't have feed malfunctions due to round length catching on a mag lip.

I guess what I'm saying here is, use the 55gr for varminting and plinking and target practice, because it's a lot cheaper. Fire enough of a heavy round (69gr if you have a 1:9 barrel, and you probably do) to learn your sight settings at range, because it has different ballistics than the 55gr. Then keep a stock of your heavier round for if/when you have to defend the homestead against something bigger than a rabbit.

In other words, I wouldn't rely on 55gr for home defense. The 55gr round was one of the reasons the M-16 developed such a terrible reputation in Vietnam.

ROFL. Them 2 legged wolves scare the piss out of me, damn things just morph right in front of ya. So you recommend 69g for the 1.9, thanks for the info. New owner here and I just purchased some 62gr. Havent got my scope yet but when I do guess ill have to sight it with 69g as i dont want the werewolves to eat me..

[GunnyFreedom]

Yeah, 62 grain is just like MilSurp. Should be OK out of a full length barrel, as the US Military and NATO forces around the world have had a heck of a lot of success with it already; but the 69 gr is an order of magnitude more lethal.

The 69 grain is right on the cusp of understabilizing from a 1:9, anything heavier will be inaccurate. Every rifle, it turns out, is kind of an individual. I'd recommend getting 20x 69gr, 20x 68gr, 20x 66gr, and 20x 62gr - all of the same make and class of ammo - fire 4 5-shot groups from each (maybe bench-rest or even clamped here), and see for yourself which is giving you the best groups. Go with the heaviest round that gives you the best groups as your "battle round."

Fortunately, with a 1:9, you can shoot 55gr rounds without issue. The only difference will be in your rear sight elevation, as the 55gr round will have a significantly flatter trajectory. So dial your sights in for the heavier 69gr or 68gr rounds, and then use an adjusted rear sight elevation to practice with 55gr rounds, as they will be fine for practicing, and they are actually a LOT cheaper.

[Anti Federalist]

55gr is great for plinking, varmints, and targets. 62gr is the minimum you should use if you have to fend off 2 legged wolves. 69gr is the max you should use if you have a 1:9 twistrate barrel. I have a 1:7 twistrate, and I stock 75gr because it has absolutely excellent terminal ballistics, and far superior knockdown.

If you are using your .223/5.56 to defend against wolves of the 2-legged variety, I wholeheartedly recommend going with a faster twist and the heaviest round that is reliable.

US Spec-Ops teams in the sandbox have been using 77gr with spectacular success over the 62gr rounds. The M4 is at a serious disadvantage with it's short barrel, unable to develop the muzzle velocity needed to make a round as light as the 62gr and specially the 55gr particularly lethal. Anecdotal reports claim that 62gr rounds can actually get stopped by heavy clothing at 400 yards, when fired from an M4 short barreled rifle.

The 77gr round seems to have solved that issue from the M4, with the round's weight making up for the lack of muzzle velocity, producing lethal terminal ballistics from the M4 as far out as 600 yards.

Even though I have a full length (20 inch) barrel, I went seeking a heavier round because I wanted as much energy as possible on impact, regardless. I settled on the 75gr round, because the 77gr round just BARELY fits in the magazine. The 75gr is just shorter enough to ensure that I won't have feed malfunctions due to round length catching on a mag lip.

I guess what I'm saying here is, use the 55gr for varminting and plinking and target practice, because it's a lot cheaper. Fire enough of a heavy round (69gr if you have a 1:9 barrel, and you probably do) to learn your sight settings at range, because it has different ballistics than the 55gr. Then keep a stock of your heavier round for if/when you have to defend the homestead against something bigger than a rabbit.

In other words, I wouldn't rely on 55gr for home defense. The 55gr round was one of the reasons the M-16 developed such a terrible reputation in Vietnam.

Why you still messing around with those .22 caliber popgun rounds, Gunny?
;)

[GunnyFreedom]

'cause the .30-06 is reserved for harder, and less numerous targets. ;)

The 5.56 AR platform is a melee weapon. Possibly one of the beast weapon platforms/calibres ever made for the specific function of a melee gun.

But there is a distinct difference between a melee gun and a precision long range sniper weapon capable of neutralizing hard targets.

[Anti Federalist]

'cause the .30-06 is reserved for harder, and less numerous targets. ;)
The 5.56 AR platform is a melee weapon. Possibly one of the beast weapon platforms/calibres ever made for the specific function of a melee gun.

But there is a distinct difference between a melee gun and a precision long range sniper weapon capable of neutralizing hard targets.

Yeah, roger that!:D

[Acala]

There are people who know more about his than me. Lots of them. And there are people with more experience in this than me - including shots fired in anger. Lots of them.

But I am going to post my opinon anyway and see what the response is.

The AR platform was designed, built, and deployed as an assault rifle: a SELECT-FIRE carbine firing an intermediate power cartridge from a large-capacity detachable box magazine. It was designed to lay down fire in QUANTITY at under 300 yards. It was designed to be light in weight and to use light weight ammunition so a soldier could carry more ammuntion so he could lay down more fire. It was designed to be deployed at the end of a strong, uninterrupted supply line pouring in all the ammunition the industrialized world could produce. It was DESIGNED to achieve one hit per 200,000 rounds expended because it was designed to be used in a situation where 200,000 rounds COULD be expended and replaced rapidly.

Maybe it is the best assault rife ever made. I don't know. But I am pretty sure that the situation it was designed and refined to excel in is a situation pretty different from the one patriots will face in the PAW.

Patriots in a PAW world will not be at the end of a rich supply line. They will not be able to spend 200,000 rounds per hit. If they do, they will lose. In a true PAW, patriots will need to come as close to a 1:1 hit ratio as is humanly possible because ammo will be scarce. Very, very scarce.

Patriots in a PAW world are not going to be engaging targets at under 300 yards if they can help it because they will be owned. They will be owned because they will be outnumbered and overwhelmed by firepower. They will be owned because the enemy WILL be at the end of a stable supply line. The enemy WILL be able to expend 200,000 rounds per hit. The enemy will be able to call in air support. The only chance a PAW Patriot will have is to engage targets from as great a distance as possible and then RUN! Engage and run. Engage and run. No spraying massive quantities of fire into an oncoming force. The order of the day will be long range aimed fire designed to do the maximum damage with minimum number of shots fired. That is not what the AR was designed to do.

I understand that the AR is capable of good accuracy and lethality even at long range. But it takes some tweeking and is really using the rifle for something other than for what it was designed.

Now I am an advocate of owning as many guns as possible just cuz guns are fun. And any gun is better than no gun. So everyone should buy an AR, among other things.

But if you are looking for one gun for a PAW scenario, wouldn't a full-power rifle designed for aimed fire at long range be a better choice than an AR?

Just sayin'

Hahahaha!

[newyearsrevolution08]

That is the same reason as to why I am setting up a bolt gun and wanting to learn how to shoot 400+ yards. I never want to go up against any type of assault weapon fight because I would lose HOWEVER out passed 500 yards I might have a chance to take out enough to keep me living longer especially if there are a few of us capable of long range target acquisition and not allow any type of assault weapon to come into range to effectively take us out.

Anyone can fight within 100 yards of each other and make decent shots BUT I would never want it to be a fair fight because fair fights never end up in our favor especially if it is up against a full military attack.

For close quarters I will have a few shotguns but at that point I doubt I would be around long enough to say whether or not an ar or shotgun would have been a better choice.

Shoot and run, shoot and run indeed.

One great way is to setup bunkers and underground tunnels on and around your property if and when it came time to deal with a foreign or domestic invasion.

All of this stuff freaks me out BUT still makes more than enough sense to realize what COULD happen as well as what we should have to be able to deal with it.

I don't know what one could do against air strikes and bombs though besides getting underground but even that isn't for sure. We would have a better chance taking back our country BEFORE anything that crazy happened.





There are people who know more about his than me. Lots of them. And there are people with more experience in this than me - including shots fired in anger. Lots of them.

But I am going to post my opinon anyway and see what the response is.

The AR platform was designed, built, and deployed as an assault rifle: a SELECT-FIRE carbine firing an intermediate power cartridge from a large-capacity detachable box magazine. It was designed to lay down fire in QUANTITY at under 300 yards. It was designed to be light in weight and to use light weight ammunition so a soldier could carry more ammuntion so he could lay down more fire. It was designed to be deployed at the end of a strong, uninterrupted supply line pouring in all the ammunition the industrialized world could produce. It was DESIGNED to achieve one hit per 200,000 rounds expended because it was designed to be used in a situation where 200,000 rounds COULD be expended and replaced rapidly.

Maybe it is the best assault rife ever made. I don't know. But I am pretty sure that the situation it was designed and refined to excel in is a situation pretty different from the one patriots will face in the PAW.

Patriots in a PAW world will not be at the end of a rich supply line. They will not be able to spend 200,000 rounds per hit. If they do, they will lose. In a true PAW, patriots will need to come as close to a 1:1 hit ratio as is humanly possible because ammo will be scarce. Very, very scarce.

Patriots in a PAW world are not going to be engaging targets at under 300 yards if they can help it because they will be owned. They will be owned because they will be outnumbered and overwhelmed by firepower. They will be owned because the enemy WILL be at the end of a stable supply line. The enemy WILL be able to expend 200,000 rounds per hit. The enemy will be able to call in air support. The only chance a PAW Patriot will have is to engage targets from as great a distance as possible and then RUN! Engage and run. Engage and run. No spraying massive quantities of fire into an oncoming force. The order of the day will be long range aimed fire designed to do the maximum damage with minimum number of shots fired. That is not what the AR was designed to do.

I understand that the AR is capable of good accuracy and lethality even at long range. But it takes some tweeking and is really using the rifle for something other than for what it was designed.

Now I am an advocate of owning as many guns as possible just cuz guns are fun. And any gun is better than no gun. So everyone should buy an AR, among other things.

But if you are looking for one gun for a PAW scenario, wouldn't a full-power rifle designed for aimed fire at long range be a better choice than an AR?

Just sayin'

Hahahaha!

[GunnyFreedom]

Re: the AR in 5.56 being designed to throw up a wall of ammo accurate to 300 yards

That's actually the AK, not the AR. The service grade AR is accurate on a point target to 550 yards, and to an area target to 880 yards.

The 62gr M855 NATO round is lethal from the 20" barrel out to 500 yards at least. 250 yards from the short barreled M4. The 77gr round now being deployed is lethal to 800 yards from a 20" barrel, and 500 yards from the M4.

In order to shoot expert on the USMC KD course, you should be somewhere above 95% on hitting a kilo (silhouette) man-sized target at 500 yards. A Marine below 50% at 500 yard is not likely to qualify at all. That is all, of course, on iron sights.

Now, civilian AR's with match grade heavy barrels can be accurate on a point target to 750 yards, and some specialists are winning NRA high power matches out to 1000 yards with AR's having bull barrels, 1:6.5 twistrates, and an 85-90 grain round.

I can assure you from personal experience that a properly set up AR firing a suitable round in 5.56, can be 1-shot 1-kill out to 500 yards without issue.

Even on iron sights, a well skilled rifleman should be able to take headshots out to 300 yards without issue. Given the proper optics, well calibrated and zeroed, head shots to 500 yards should not be a problem, again, for a skilled rifleman.

Now, I am not married to the AR platform, and I seriously believe that the AR-10 is superior to the AR-15 when speaking about AR's in paticular. I just wanted to chip in here that the above is actually a gross underestimation of the AR-15's basic capabilities.

[newyearsrevolution08]

I am not going to argue with any of that at all.

Happy to hear more as well.

I just never looked at an ar as a long range rifle myself.

I would love to check out some 700+ yard shooting rigs for an ar though. Price wise and so on as well. I am going to check around indeed.

I know I want a bolt gun for long range whether or not an ar can duplicate or far exceed it BUT if an ar can be accurate out that far as well especially iron sighted then I can see a reason for having one both for close and longer range target acquisition.

Do you have any links to some decent setups that someone who is familiar with the setup might suggest?


Re: the AR in 5.56 being designed to throw up a wall of ammo accurate to 300 yards

That's actually the AK, not the AR. The service grade AR is accurate on a point target to 550 yards, and to an area target to 880 yards.

The 62gr M855 NATO round is lethal from the 20" barrel out to 500 yards at least. 250 yards from the short barreled M4. The 77gr round now being deployed is lethal to 800 yards from a 20" barrel, and 500 yards from the M4.

In order to shoot expert on the USMC KD course, you should be somewhere above 95% on hitting a kilo (silhouette) man-sized target at 500 yards. A Marine below 50% at 500 yard is not likely to qualify at all. That is all, of course, on iron sights.

Now, civilian AR's with match grade heavy barrels can be accurate on a point target to 750 yards, and some specialists are winning NRA high power matches out to 1000 yards with AR's having bull barrels, 1:6.5 twistrates, and an 85-90 grain round.

I can assure you from personal experience that a properly set up AR firing a suitable round in 5.56, can be 1-shot 1-kill out to 500 yards without issue.

Even on iron sights, a well skilled rifleman should be able to take headshots out to 300 yards without issue. Given the proper optics, well calibrated and zeroed, head shots to 500 yards should not be a problem, again, for a skilled rifleman.

Now, I am not married to the AR platform, and I seriously believe that the AR-10 is superior to the AR-15 when speaking about AR's in paticular. I just wanted to chip in here that the above is actually a gross underestimation of the AR-15's basic capabilities.

[Acala]

Re: the AR in 5.56 being designed to throw up a wall of ammo accurate to 300 yards

That's actually the AK, not the AR. The service grade AR is accurate on a point target to 550 yards, and to an area target to 880 yards.

The 62gr M855 NATO round is lethal from the 20" barrel out to 500 yards at least. 250 yards from the short barreled M4. The 77gr round now being deployed is lethal to 800 yards from a 20" barrel, and 500 yards from the M4.

In order to shoot expert on the USMC KD course, you should be somewhere above 95% on hitting a kilo (silhouette) man-sized target at 500 yards. A Marine below 50% at 500 yard is not likely to qualify at all. That is all, of course, on iron sights.

Now, civilian AR's with match grade heavy barrels can be accurate on a point target to 750 yards, and some specialists are winning NRA high power matches out to 1000 yards with AR's having bull barrels, 1:6.5 twistrates, and an 85-90 grain round.

I can assure you from personal experience that a properly set up AR firing a suitable round in 5.56, can be 1-shot 1-kill out to 500 yards without issue.

Even on iron sights, a well skilled rifleman should be able to take headshots out to 300 yards without issue. Given the proper optics, well calibrated and zeroed, head shots to 500 yards should not be a problem, again, for a skilled rifleman.

Now, I am not married to the AR platform, and I seriously believe that the AR-10 is superior to the AR-15 when speaking about AR's in paticular. I just wanted to chip in here that the above is actually a gross underestimation of the AR-15's basic capabilities.

I didn't say that the AR was not capable of single shot accuracy out to 500 yards. What I said was that it was not DESIGNED for that. It was designed for full-auto fire at relatively short range (as the Korean war studies indicated were most common in actual combat) in an "ample ammo" environment. I suggest these are not likely PAW conditions.

I am aware that the Camp Perry competitors shoot the AR platform out to 1000 yards very nicely. But it took them literally YEARS of work to figure out how to tune those rifles to do that. Tweeking barrel weight, bullet weight, twist rate, etc. Because it wasn't DESIGNED for that.

[Pericles]

We're mixing several points here, but let me have a go at it.

(1) AR as an automatic platform - having had that opportunity with a M16A1, you really don't want to pump out more than a couple of hundred rounds on auto - the smoking barrel is the clue to slow your rate of fire. Besides, you're not going to hit anything anyway - you can make the other side hide with a slower rate of sustained fire if you are playing the maneuver warfare game.

(2) Lethal hits - head shots and heart shots are not too dependent on caliber of the round. Stopping power matters in other places on the body.

(3) PAW scenarios - we don't know what is going to happen and when something will happen. I matrix it in the following way (A) factors I influence, and (B) possible threats.
(A) I may be in an urban environment or in a rural environment, operating alone or as part of a group. If operating as part of a group (even if only 3 of us), our odds of survival increase greatly. Find some like minded friends near where you live.
(B) The threat may be an individual lightly armed, to an armed mob, to various official organizations who seek to impose tyranny. The unorganized mob threat and below will most likely seek easy prey - depending on numbers involved, much of that threat can be managed. The upper end threat requires a militia organization to successfully defeat - the threat will very likely have level 3 or 4 ballistic protection, and have 10 to 20 shooters that will have to be engaged. (A proper defensive preparation limits the advantage of opponents' numbers - google Agincourt and Roarke's Drift).
(C) Being able to choose my ground gives an advantage and dictates weapon choice. How many 500 meter shots will I get in an urban jungle, as opposed to lightly wooded and rolling ground....

[GunnyFreedom]

I didn't say that the AR was not capable of single shot accuracy out to 500 yards. What I said was that it was not DESIGNED for that. It was designed for full-auto fire at relatively short range (as the Korean war studies indicated were most common in actual combat) in an "ample ammo" environment. I suggest these are not likely PAW conditions.

I am aware that the Camp Perry competitors shoot the AR platform out to 1000 yards very nicely. But it took them literally YEARS of work to figure out how to tune those rifles to do that. Tweeking barrel weight, bullet weight, twist rate, etc. Because it wasn't DESIGNED for that.

Well, not exactly. Eugene Stoner actually designed the AR-10 in .308 to replace the M-14. It was designed to be MORE accurate, and LONGER range, in the .308 round than the M-14 was. At the last minute, the DOD said they wanted to go to the 5.56mm, so Stoner quickly took the AR-10 and retrofit the design for the 5.56mm to produce the AR-15, and then resubmitted it.

The AR-15 wasn't actually designed, per se, at all. The AR-15 was in fact a compromise of the original AR-10 design, in order to fire the smaller round which the DOD was asking for.

So the quite honest and sincere truth here was that there was not a specific design intention to create a rifle that would fire full auto at short range, any more than the M-14 was designed to fire full auto at short range.

The design intention of the AR platform was to create a replacement for the M-14 which would fire the same round, be more accurate at longer range, but which could handle full auto more effectively than the M-14 could.

The 5.56mm round was just a compromise on the original design.

[GunnyFreedom]

I am not going to argue with any of that at all.

Happy to hear more as well.

I just never looked at an ar as a long range rifle myself.

I would love to check out some 700+ yard shooting rigs for an ar though. Price wise and so on as well. I am going to check around indeed.

I know I want a bolt gun for long range whether or not an ar can duplicate or far exceed it BUT if an ar can be accurate out that far as well especially iron sighted then I can see a reason for having one both for close and longer range target acquisition.

Do you have any links to some decent setups that someone who is familiar with the setup might suggest?

The AR-15 is really not a very useful long range rifle for combat. In order to expand lethality beyond around 700 yards, you have to use at minimum an 85 grain round. But the 85 grain cartrige is too long to fit into the magazine, so you have to single load. Plus, to stabilize the 85 grain bullet at those velocities, you have to go tighter than a 1:7 twistrate, so your barrel has to be function-specific for that round.

The AR-15, with a 1:7 twist (same as MilSpec) firing 62 grain rounds should be capable of dominating an envelope that just reaches to 500 yards. Firing 69-75 grain rounds should be capable of dominating an envelope that reached beyong 600 yards. And leave it at that.

A long range weapon will definately be your heavier roound. Whether an M1 Garand in .30-06 which is plenty deadly as far as 1500 yards (but needs to be accurized to be accurate at 750-1100 yards) or a .30-06 bolt action which is plenty lethal out to 1800 yards, but would need to be accurized to be accurate between 900 and 1200 yards.

A .308 is also quite capable between 500 and 1000 yards, and therefore the AR-10 might be a good choice here.

When you take the AR-15 out beyond 650-700 yards, it really does require function-specific rounds, and function-specific barrels; and will no longer magazine feed, but only single feed. Yes, a compromise setup can be done where you could single feed the 85grain round on targets 1000 yards away into about 600 yards, and then mag-feed the lighter 75-grain round all the way from there in to point blank range.

But it's really best to just keep the AR for the 500 yard envelope where it is excellent just the way it is.

I do reccommend getting a 1:7 twistrate barrel, and using a 75 grain round as your combat reserve, however, as as that round is an order of magnitude more lethal at long range than the 62 grain, and especially more than the 55 grain.

In my case, I also have a Remington model 721 bolt action .30-06 so when I encounter harder targes, or targets beyond 500 yards, I just switch to the boltgun and can address targets out beyond 1000 yards.

But in ANY case, we are not really going to be in any kind of fixed defense scenario. Shoot & maneuver, shoot & maneuver is going to be the order of the day.

[GunnyFreedom]

Very, very good input here.


We're mixing several points here, but let me have a go at it.

(1) AR as an automatic platform - having had that opportunity with a M16A1, you really don't want to pump out more than a couple of hundred rounds on auto - the smoking barrel is the clue to slow your rate of fire. Besides, you're not going to hit anything anyway - you can make the other side hide with a slower rate of sustained fire if you are playing the maneuver warfare game.

Very true. There are only a few very specific uses for full auto fire anyway, and none of them overlap very often with someone carrying a basic infantry rifle.

The closest thing to a real purpose for full-rate fire, as you mention, maneuver warfare, is covered doctrinally by the M-249 SAW, and certainly not the AR.

Now, just as an aside and irrelevant to our current discussion, the LWRC has gone and modified the AR design to produce a variant called the "IAR" or Infantry Automatic Rifle in response to a call from the Marine Corps to manufacture a lighter, more reliable replacement for the M-249 SAW. Colt is beginning to manufacture it as we speak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVHLvtArC_g

Apparently, when you use a gas piston instead of a gas tube, and you fire from an open bolt instead of a closed bolt, heat is not as much of an issue. What the vid doesn't cover is that it does have a rapid-change barrel also, AND it usually uses 100-round drum mags instead of the 30-round box mags they are showing. The only real disadvantage I see is that an automatic weapon uses belt feeding for a good reason...


(2) Lethal hits - head shots and heart shots are not too dependent on caliber of the round. Stopping power matters in other places on the body.

Clearly true. Also, muzzle velocity and the grain weight of your round probably have a bigger impact than most people realize. Look at the difference between the .38 special and the .357 magnum, for instance.

This is why I harp on full length barrels and heavy grain-weight rounds for people who want to stick with the AR-15 platform as their main battle rifle.

Here is an example that I just found off the web...

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

0.224 dia. 53 gr. Triple-Shock™ X Flat Base
impact energy in ft/lbs @ 3000fps MV (10')
at 500 yds 166.8
at 700 yds 103.2
at 1000 yds 67.2

0.224 dia. 70 gr. Triple-Shock™ X Boattail
impact energy in ft/lbs @ 3000fps MV (10')
at 500 yds 435.2
at 700 yds 258.7
at 1000 yds 149.2

See the significant improvement in impact energy you get by switching from a 50gr flat base to a 70gr boattail?

So if you are sticking with the 5.56mm cartridge, which there are some valid reasons to do, the mantra to remember is muzzle velocity and grain weight, muzzle velocity and grain weight. You get better velocity with a longer barrel and a boattail round, and grain weight is just a heavier bullet.


(3) PAW scenarios - we don't know what is going to happen and when something will happen. I matrix it in the following way (A) factors I influence, and (B) possible threats.

(A) I may be in an urban environment or in a rural environment, operating alone or as part of a group. If operating as part of a group (even if only 3 of us), our odds of survival increase greatly. Find some like minded friends near where you live.

(B) The threat may be an individual lightly armed, to an armed mob, to various official organizations who seek to impose tyranny. The unorganized mob threat and below will most likely seek easy prey - depending on numbers involved, much of that threat can be managed. The upper end threat requires a militia organization to successfully defeat - the threat will very likely have level 3 or 4 ballistic protection, and have 10 to 20 shooters that will have to be engaged. (A proper defensive preparation limits the advantage of opponents' numbers - google Agincourt and Roarke's Drift).

(C) Being able to choose my ground gives an advantage and dictates weapon choice. How many 500 meter shots will I get in an urban jungle, as opposed to lightly wooded and rolling ground....

Hear here!

I always tell people that you don't use a hammer to drive a screw, and you don't use a screwdriver to drive a nail. It's all about using the right tool for the job.

Depending on what we face, it would either be an M1 Garand (which happens to be my favorite favorite -- but I am saving up for a Smith & Wesson MP .40 first, so the M1 will have to wait), an M1a, an AR-10, an AR-15, a Benelli R1, or any of the myriad of bolt action rifles.

Not to mention that depending on the scenario, a shotgun may be a better tool for the job than any rifle! :eek:

It all boils down to the right tool for the job.

[newyearsrevolution08]

great information indeed.

I am just enjoying reading the options and reasons behind certain rounds and rifles themselves. I want to have different weapons that are capable at varying distances especially with iron sights. I will look more into the ar-10.

I am looking into the .308 over the .223 as well simply because 4 out of 5 of my shooting buddies have a .308 rifle versus a .223 and I find it better for us to have the capability of all shooting the same round. In any scenario that I might be in I see the 500 to 1000 yard range being as far as I would ever need and 300-700 being as close and as far as I would want to try and take out any target with any real accuracy.

I have not even thought about using the 30-06. I am going to look into that round versus the .308 as well just like I have been doing with the 223 versus 308.




The AR-15 is really not a very useful long range rifle for combat. In order to expand lethality beyond around 700 yards, you have to use at minimum an 85 grain round. But the 85 grain cartrige is too long to fit into the magazine, so you have to single load. Plus, to stabilize the 85 grain bullet at those velocities, you have to go tighter than a 1:7 twistrate, so your barrel has to be function-specific for that round.

The AR-15, with a 1:7 twist (same as MilSpec) firing 62 grain rounds should be capable of dominating an envelope that just reaches to 500 yards. Firing 69-75 grain rounds should be capable of dominating an envelope that reached beyong 600 yards. And leave it at that.

A long range weapon will definately be your heavier roound. Whether an M1 Garand in .30-06 which is plenty deadly as far as 1500 yards (but needs to be accurized to be accurate at 750-1100 yards) or a .30-06 bolt action which is plenty lethal out to 1800 yards, but would need to be accurized to be accurate between 900 and 1200 yards.

A .308 is also quite capable between 500 and 1000 yards, and therefore the AR-10 might be a good choice here.

When you take the AR-15 out beyond 650-700 yards, it really does require function-specific rounds, and function-specific barrels; and will no longer magazine feed, but only single feed. Yes, a compromise setup can be done where you could single feed the 85grain round on targets 1000 yards away into about 600 yards, and then mag-feed the lighter 75-grain round all the way from there in to point blank range.

But it's really best to just keep the AR for the 500 yard envelope where it is excellent just the way it is.

I do reccommend getting a 1:7 twistrate barrel, and using a 75 grain round as your combat reserve, however, as as that round is an order of magnitude more lethal at long range than the 62 grain, and especially more than the 55 grain.

In my case, I also have a Remington model 721 bolt action .30-06 so when I encounter harder targes, or targets beyond 500 yards, I just switch to the boltgun and can address targets out beyond 1000 yards.

But in ANY case, we are not really going to be in any kind of fixed defense scenario. Shoot & maneuver, shoot & maneuver is going to be the order of the day.

[Acala]

Well, not exactly. Eugene Stoner actually designed the AR-10 in .308 to replace the M-14. It was designed to be MORE accurate, and LONGER range, in the .308 round than the M-14 was. At the last minute, the DOD said they wanted to go to the 5.56mm, so Stoner quickly took the AR-10 and retrofit the design for the 5.56mm to produce the AR-15, and then resubmitted it.

The AR-15 wasn't actually designed, per se, at all. The AR-15 was in fact a compromise of the original AR-10 design, in order to fire the smaller round which the DOD was asking for.

So the quite honest and sincere truth here was that there was not a specific design intention to create a rifle that would fire full auto at short range, any more than the M-14 was designed to fire full auto at short range.

The design intention of the AR platform was to create a replacement for the M-14 which would fire the same round, be more accurate at longer range, but which could handle full auto more effectively than the M-14 could.

The 5.56mm round was just a compromise on the original design.

Interesting.

So I guess they chose an assault rifle round - the 5.56 - and then wrapped an existing full-power rifle design around it. In light of that I have to say they made it work pretty well.

[Acala]

great information indeed.

I have not even thought about using the 30-06. I am going to look into that round versus the .308 as well just like I have been doing with the 223 versus 308.

I put 7.62 NATO (almost .308), 5.65, and 7.62 x 39 in the same class in one respect - likely availability. They are all widely used by the world's military and will likely be around for awhile. That may impact availability when the gun stores close. I think it is a good idea for David to use Goliath's ammo. But if you are going to discount that factor, there are several other good rounds to choose from. The 30-06 (whih has ballistics very close tothe 7.62 NATO) is a great round and several great rifles eat it - the Garand, the Springfield, and the American Enfield to name three. Another great round is the 8mm Mauser. It has almost identical ballistics to the 30-06 and plenty of nice rifles are chambered for it as well - a couple different kinds of Mausers, the Hakim, and the Egyptian FN 49 to name a few. I don't know how available 30-06 and 8mm amoo is on the surplus market now, but they have been available in the past in quantity.

There are other options on the surplus market as well if you don't care about it being in current military use - British .303 and the Russian 7.62 x 54R come to mind.

[GunnyFreedom]

great information indeed.

I am just enjoying reading the options and reasons behind certain rounds and rifles themselves. I want to have different weapons that are capable at varying distances especially with iron sights. I will look more into the ar-10.

I am looking into the .308 over the .223 as well simply because 4 out of 5 of my shooting buddies have a .308 rifle versus a .223 and I find it better for us to have the capability of all shooting the same round. In any scenario that I might be in I see the 500 to 1000 yard range being as far as I would ever need and 300-700 being as close and as far as I would want to try and take out any target with any real accuracy.

I have not even thought about using the 30-06. I am going to look into that round versus the .308 as well just like I have been doing with the 223 versus 308.

The .30-06 is still a pretty common round. You can get bulk .30-06 from CMP which sells surplus Garands (so long as you have attended an approved marksmanship course)

The .30-06 uses the exact same projectile as the .308, but has about twice as much case. The '06 round was THE American battle round in WW1 and WW2.

The '06 and the .308 are very close, ballistically. The difference comes when you get into the heavier grain weights. The '06 cartridge can handle heavier weight projectiles while keeping a high muzzle velocity.

For instance, you can load a .30-06 with a 200 grain round, and fire it with a muzzle velocity of 2618 fps, or a 180 grain round at 2812 fps. Or a 165 grain round with 2930 fps,, or a 150 grain round with 3120 fps.

Or, better yet, let's pull up some MV data on some random loads across the spectrum, and calculate the terminal ballistic energy at 700 yards and 1000 yards

.30-06

2618 fps from a 200 grain e= 783ft/lbs @700yds 481ft/lbs @1000yds
2812 fps from a 180 grain e= 835ft/lbs @700yds 483ft/lbs @1000yds
2930 fps from a 165 grain e= 847ft/lbs @700yds 477ft/lbs @1000yds
3120 fps from a 150 grain e= 902ft/lbs @700yds 494ft/lbs @1000yds

All things being equal, the .308 you can get:

2435 fps from a 200 grain e= 668ft/lbs @700yds 439ft/lbs @1000yds
2625 fps from a 180 grain e= 709ft/lbs @700yds 434ft/lbs @1000yds
2674 fps from a 165 grain e= 678ft/lbs @700yds 409ft/lbs @1000yds
2851 fps from a 150 grain e= 720ft/lbs @700yds 412ft/lbs @1000yds

Now, the exact same projectile actually fits a large variety of cartridges. What's particularly nice about the .30-06 and the .308 is that they are very very common. But if you want to get just stupid long range punch (especially if you intend to do some reloading yourself) you might look at the more unusual 300 Weatherby Magnum cartridge, and the new Winchester Ultra Magnum

300 Weatherby Magnum:

3071 fps from a 200 grain e= 1156ft/lbs @700yds 636ft/lbs @1000yds
3222 fps from a 180 grain e= 1174ft/lbs @700yds 638ft/lbs @1000yds
3429 fps from a 150 grain e= 1145ft/lbs @700yds 619ft/lbs @1000yds

300 Remington Ultra Magnum:

3119 fps from a 200 grain e= 1202ft/lbs @700yds 658ft/lbs @1000yds
3256 fps from a 180 grain e= 1206ft/lbs @700yds 654ft/lbs @1000yds
3326 fps from a 165 grain e= 1166ft/lbs @700yds 631ft/lbs @1000yds
3456 fps from a 150 grain e= 1167ft/lbs @700yds 631ft/lbs @1000yds

Which counter-intuitively reveals that your heaviest knockdown punch at 1000 yards, from a flat-base .30-06 will come in the form of a 150 grain round, whereas from the 300 RUM it comes from the 200 grain round.

Bear in mind, that the above assumes the same ballistic coefficient for all the rounds, which is just not the case. Some shapes push through the air better reducing drag, and leading to higher velocities, and thus higher impact energy at range.

But the calculations here for the standard rounds at the standard weights with the standard coefficient, may help show a difference between the .30-06 and the .308

Both of which are wildly common.

I am very seriously thinking about getting a 300 RUM and loading the cartridges with AP (armor piercing) projectiles for use with hard targets.

Take for instance the 163 grain Armor Piercing projectile fired from a 300 RUM would look like:

3330 fps from a 163 grain

100 yards 3431 ft/lbs
200 yards 2907 ft/lbs
300 yards 2451 ft/lbs
400 yards 2054 ft/lbs
500 yards 1708 ft/lbs
600 yards 1410 ft/lbs
700 yards 1156 ft/lbs
800 yards 942 ft/lbs
900 yards 766 ft/lbs
1000 yards 625 ft/lbs

So, with such literally insane impact energy as is seen here inside of 400 yards, there would seriously be no kind of civilian armored vehicle that could withstand it, given the carbide core penetrator. One could literally swiss-cheese a SWAT model M113 with such a round.

[Acala]

Where would one go about getting AP projectiles?

[newyearsrevolution08]

Wow this is detailed Gunny, thank you very much for the information.

I will be doing hand loaded (in the end) but for now simply going to save brass and overpay on factory rounds.

I wasn't considering the .308 out to 1k yards but that is simply due to my ability and not the round I am sure but it is great to know its capabilities versus the 06.

I think I will be sticking with the .308 due to the various weapons I will be buying and trying my best to keep the same round so I can stockpile it along with others in my area since most have the .308 also.

I guess if I needed real power long range I could check out the 300 mags+ especially with their ability to penetrate most anything as you have been writing about. That would most def. need to be hand loads to save on cost though lol BUT what round isn't worth hand loading anyways to get costs down + getting the perfect round for the rifle. It really is a win win...

once again great information and I will continue to get educated by you and other great minds in this thread.


The .30-06 is still a pretty common round. You can get bulk .30-06 from CMP which sells surplus Garands (so long as you have attended an approved marksmanship course)

The .30-06 uses the exact same projectile as the .308, but has about twice as much case. The '06 round was THE American battle round in WW1 and WW2.

The '06 and the .308 are very close, ballistically. The difference comes when you get into the heavier grain weights. The '06 cartridge can handle heavier weight projectiles while keeping a high muzzle velocity.

For instance, you can load a .30-06 with a 200 grain round, and fire it with a muzzle velocity of 2618 fps, or a 180 grain round at 2812 fps. Or a 165 grain round with 2930 fps,, or a 150 grain round with 3120 fps.

Or, better yet, let's pull up some MV data on some random loads across the spectrum, and calculate the terminal ballistic energy at 700 yards and 1000 yards

.30-06

2618 fps from a 200 grain e= 783ft/lbs @700yds 481ft/lbs @1000yds
2812 fps from a 180 grain e= 835ft/lbs @700yds 483ft/lbs @1000yds
2930 fps from a 165 grain e= 847ft/lbs @700yds 477ft/lbs @1000yds
3120 fps from a 150 grain e= 902ft/lbs @700yds 494ft/lbs @1000yds

All things being equal, the .308 you can get:

2435 fps from a 200 grain e= 668ft/lbs @700yds 439ft/lbs @1000yds
2625 fps from a 180 grain e= 709ft/lbs @700yds 434ft/lbs @1000yds
2674 fps from a 165 grain e= 678ft/lbs @700yds 409ft/lbs @1000yds
2851 fps from a 150 grain e= 720ft/lbs @700yds 412ft/lbs @1000yds

Now, the exact same projectile actually fits a large variety of cartridges. What's particularly nice about the .30-06 and the .308 is that they are very very common. But if you want to get just stupid long range punch (especially if you intend to do some reloading yourself) you might look at the more unusual 300 Weatherby Magnum cartridge, and the new Winchester Ultra Magnum

300 Weatherby Magnum:

3071 fps from a 200 grain e= 1156ft/lbs @700yds 636ft/lbs @1000yds
3222 fps from a 180 grain e= 1174ft/lbs @700yds 638ft/lbs @1000yds
3429 fps from a 150 grain e= 1145ft/lbs @700yds 619ft/lbs @1000yds

300 Remington Ultra Magnum:

3119 fps from a 200 grain e= 1202ft/lbs @700yds 658ft/lbs @1000yds
3256 fps from a 180 grain e= 1206ft/lbs @700yds 654ft/lbs @1000yds
3326 fps from a 165 grain e= 1166ft/lbs @700yds 631ft/lbs @1000yds
3456 fps from a 150 grain e= 1167ft/lbs @700yds 631ft/lbs @1000yds

Which counter-intuitively reveals that your heaviest knockdown punch at 1000 yards, from a flat-base .30-06 will come in the form of a 150 grain round, whereas from the 300 RUM it comes from the 200 grain round.

Bear in mind, that the above assumes the same ballistic coefficient for all the rounds, which is just not the case. Some shapes push through the air better reducing drag, and leading to higher velocities, and thus higher impact energy at range.

But the calculations here for the standard rounds at the standard weights with the standard coefficient, may help show a difference between the .30-06 and the .308

Both of which are wildly common.

I am very seriously thinking about getting a 300 RUM and loading the cartridges with AP (armor piercing) projectiles for use with hard targets.

Take for instance the 163 grain Armor Piercing projectile fired from a 300 RUM would look like:

3330 fps from a 163 grain

100 yards 3431 ft/lbs
200 yards 2907 ft/lbs
300 yards 2451 ft/lbs
400 yards 2054 ft/lbs
500 yards 1708 ft/lbs
600 yards 1410 ft/lbs
700 yards 1156 ft/lbs
800 yards 942 ft/lbs
900 yards 766 ft/lbs
1000 yards 625 ft/lbs

So, with such literally insane impact energy as is seen here inside of 400 yards, there would seriously be no kind of civilian armored vehicle that could withstand it, given the carbide core penetrator. One could literally swiss-cheese a SWAT model M113 with such a round.

[GunnyFreedom]

Where would one go about getting AP projectiles?

They are fortunately 100% legal for high powered rifles, given that non-AP rounds out of a high power penetrate the very body armor that the law was intended to protect anyway.

So you can get them in a variety of places. I ususally go with GunBroker.com (now that e-Bay has put the kibosh on guns & ammo

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=107033990

is a currently active auction selling 500 AP projectiles for $125

[newyearsrevolution08]

NICE, I will be picking these up as well. These will be a ton of fun testing out on some land with some pieces of steel or an old car....

Mix this with a few tracer rounds and it would be a damn fun day shooting.



They are fortunately 100% legal for high powered rifles, given that non-AP rounds out of a high power penetrate the very body armor that the law was intended to protect anyway.

So you can get them in a variety of places. I ususally go with GunBroker.com (now that e-Bay has put the kibosh on guns & ammo

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=107033990

is a currently active auction selling 500 AP projectiles for $125

[GunnyFreedom]

NICE, I will be picking these up as well. These will be a ton of fun testing out on some land with some pieces of steel or an old car....

Mix this with a few tracer rounds and it would be a damn fun day shooting.

You can get whole AP rounds from there also - but be advised that these are ONLY the projectiles, they would have to be loaded first.

[newyearsrevolution08]

I know it is just the projectiles. I would want to hand load these rounds anyways. I see it being a great idea just to buy a few thousand rounds of ap tips just to have for later on.


You can get whole AP rounds from there also - but be advised that these are ONLY the projectiles, they would have to be loaded first.

[GunnyFreedom]

Here are steel core NATO MilSurp AP .308 rounds

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=107056792

WAY too expensive for my blood. They want $500 for 200 rounds. I bought 40x '06 AP reloads for $50. They are probably charging so much because they are not reloads, but originals.

[GunnyFreedom]

I know it is just the projectiles. I would want to hand load these rounds anyways. I see it being a great idea just to buy a few thousand rounds of ap tips just to have for later on.

No kidding; and it is awful fun to fire these things at a 1/2" thick steel plate and see a clean hole through it, and then beside it fire a standard FMJ and watch it just crater the surface of the plate.


Oh yeah, and they'll go all the way through both sides of a car, and keep on going past the other side.

[Acala]

They are fortunately 100% legal for high powered rifles, given that non-AP rounds out of a high power penetrate the very body armor that the law was intended to protect anyway.

So you can get them in a variety of places. I ususally go with GunBroker.com (now that e-Bay has put the kibosh on guns & ammo

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=107033990

is a currently active auction selling 500 AP projectiles for $125

Thanks for the info. A good thing to have on hand. The deer around here are getting REALLY wary.

[Merk]

Sorry if this was covered but I didn't catch it regarding 5,56 bullet weights.

In order to accurately shoot 5.56 bullets larger than 62gr one needs a 1x7 barrel to stabilize the round. Most civie AR15's are 1x9 which will not shoot the larger rounds accurately. All those foot lbs don't mean much if the bullet hits air.

[GunnyFreedom]

Sorry if this was covered but I didn't catch it regarding 5,56 bullet weights.

In order to accurately shoot 5.56 bullets larger than 62gr one needs a 1x7 barrel to stabilize the round. Most civie AR15's are 1x9 which will not shoot the larger rounds accurately. All those foot lbs don't mean much if the bullet hits air.

In my experience and research, a 1:9 twistrate barrel can usually go as heavy as 68-69 gr before stabilization issues begin to appear, and that ppears to vary from individual barrel to barrel.

I generally reccommend a shooter with a 1:9 barrel get 20 each of 70gr, 69gr, 68gr, 65gr, and 40x 62gr.

First, at 36 yards minimum (300 yards preferred), shoot 4 5-round groups of the 62gr for a control group, and mark the target "62gr control"

Then shoot 4 5-round groups in each of the other ammo grain weights, also marking the targets by their grain weight. Finally, shoot the last 4 5-round groups of the remaining 62 grains.

Then compare the targets, and pick the heaviest grain weight round whose groups average the same size as your 62gr control groups.

Accuracy out of a 1:9 barrel usually winds up on the 68 or 69 gr rounds. I have seen one 1:9 that kept it tight at the 70gr, and subsequent boxes of 70gr remained tight. I count that one solitary rifle, however, as an abberration. :)