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View Full Version : Some insider observations from living in socialist Sweden and comparing it to the USA




GreenCardSeeker
07-25-2008, 03:25 PM
Many of the ideas of liberty and such that the American founding fathers felt were so important aren't even discussed in Sweden or the other socialist states in Europe. We don't have any public debate over the importance of separation between the different powers of the state, executive and so on. Formally Sweden has a division between the justice system and politics, but in practice it doesn't exist. Jury members are appointed by the political parties. Neither mass media nor the school curriculum teaches people why this is important or what relevance it has to abuses of power occuring today. Even though I'm not a lawyer and don't understand the intricacies of law, the court system we have today is the same as the one that existed when Sweden was still a real monarchy.

There is no constitutional court, no power to prosecute the government when it defies the constitution. What's in the constitution doesn't matter much since the state isn't obliged to follow it. For example, in 1979, registration of people's political views was outlawed in the constitution, yet the state kept on doing it. For most of the 20th century, the social democrats have been in control of the country with a few short breaks when they've lost too many voters. Usually majority has been achieved by forming a government with the communist party. The social democrats have never recieved less than 35% of the votes since the 1920's, their voters don't even consider voting for another party, they're born and raised to believe in the party just like religious people, and the state is God to them - they believe it can accomplish anything if given enough tribute and authority. The social democrat leaders failing to stick to their election promises has never really affected the votes they've gotten, their voters simply won't consider voting for anything else. The party controls just about all the trade unions as well, and union membership fees have traditionally gone to the social democratic party. Most newspapers in Sweden have been tied to the party as well, and the state has paid out subsidies to them, called "presstöd", which they've motivated by the claim that leftwing newspapers would have it harder getting advertising money - remember, the ideas of class warfare have been quite central to the outlook on society here.

The way to political power in the country has been the same ever since the first half of the last century: Start in the socialdemocrat youth organization and work your way up by being loyal to your leaders and performing tasks like monitoring competing parties. During the post-war era, few people talking politics at workplaces have avoided making it into the political files the socialdemocrats have set up, encompassing hundreds of thousands of people at one time.

Taxes have been the highest in the world for some time; Since the taxes are so high, they've used a sneaky way of obtaining them. The income tax employees see is slightly over 30%, but the employers also have to pay a similar amount on top of that. The socialdemocrats(calling them SDP for now) motivated this by "taxing corporations directly", when it doesn't change anything than simply hide the tax from the employee. General sales tax is 25%, though lower on some items like food, travel and books. Vastly higher on alcohol, tobacco and petrol. Adding all taxes up, Swedes pay between 60% and 80% of their income in taxes depending on income and consumption habits.

Crime has absolutely skyrocketed under SDP rule, going from roughly 50 homicides/year around 1950 with a population of 7 million, to 258 2007 with a population of 9 million. Most of it is due to non-European immigration, though crime among Swedes have risen too as the actual penal system has been abolished and replaced by one emphasising "care". Sentences are very peculiar too - the minimum sentence for first degree murder is 6 years in prison, though prisoners are normally released after 2/3 of the time if they've behaved in prison. The average murder conviction is a little less than 9 years in prison. A few percent of people convicted of murder spend only 4 years in prison, which incidentally is the maximum possible sentence you can get for "hate speech", which can simply be a matter of quoting the Bible on homosexuality. Thought offenders have been threatened with the same time in prison as some have spent for murder.

The state TV floods people with anti-American propaganda, buying just about every anti-American documentary produced in the world by remotely respectable companies, and showing it. Almost on a daily basis, viewers are reminded of how supposedly bad the USA is, an extremely one-sided portrayal where hardly anything good is ever brought up. The state TV even went as far as showing the documentary Outfoxed - in other words, this Pravda-like TV attacked a free American news channel. They really should have a look in the mirror instead - even though Fox news might not be that great, it actually features dissenting perspectives unlike the tightly regulated broadcasts on SVT(SVeriges Television, the name of the state broadcasting company).

The #1 issue on the mind of the average Swede is the almost unregulated immigration, which has been disastrous for the country. Roughly 1 million immigrants, mainly from the third world, have been let into this country of 9 million as asylum seekers and provided with lots of subsidies. No background checks have been made, it's just been a matter of burning your passport to hide your identity and making up a story of persecution, and you've been given asylum status here. With the stagnant economy where for a long time not a single new job in the private sector was generated, this has led to large unemployment and social problems that weren't present at all before. Swedes in general recognize the problem, but mass media is very strict about never presenting anything negative about immigration and not revealing the ethnic origin of offenders. Debate shows on SVT carefully screen anyone allowed to speak to make sure they don't have a critical view of immigration, and no discussion of the matter is allowed.

Strangely enough, while the SDP voters are generally the most opposed to immigration since their voters belong to the lower "class" and have to suffer the consequences the most, their own party has been the one most vigilant in blocking any debate on the matter. The party has made sure to brand anyone critical of immigration as a "racist" and attempted to link this opposition to concentration camps. They've insinuated that if people were fed the truth about the matter, the Swedes would want to set up camps and execute the immigrants. The contempt the political elite here has for the people is tremendous. People asking for the right to speak their minds on immigration are often branded as "nazis".

What makes their use of the word "nazi" funny is the fact that the socialdemocrats sterilized not less than 63'000 women, or nearly 2% of the female population at the time, from the 1930's to 1960's. Women in mental hospitals, criminal offenders, mentally retarded people or just promiscous women hanging out in subcultures. Mass media was aware of it yet didn't report it to the public until the 1990's, since mass media in Sweden is closely knit to the state - it doesn't bring up topics that go against of today's state, can only criticize past politics.

As you can see, this is a really insane country. I'm planning to make a video blog-like documentary about it, though since I don't have much in the way of funds, it will have to be limited to voice narrating over pictures and tables and such. I don't have any experience in making video, but it seems like many people are able to make videos these days, so I figure I should be able to as well, even though my scope might be a bit bigger than just a 5 minute clip. I know I would become really hated here in Sweden if I presented SDP in the bad light that it really deserves, so I don't see myself having much of a future left in the country if I made such a documentary. Do you guys reckon it could be worth it and become a hit, telling a shocking story and teaching about the dangers of statism? If say I'd make a documentary and 10'000 people were to watch it online through Youtube/torrent sites, it'd be worth it for me, but I'm not sure how interested people would be in watching a fairly long documentary not featuring any interviews. General feedback would be nice. I've gathered tons of information to include, but haven't yet made up my mind on how to structure it. I suppose a history lesson told in chronological order would be the most appropriate, possibly divided into a few different timelines for different aspects of life in society, like perhaps politics at state level, life for political dissidents under the SDP and the abuses of power regular citizens are subjected to, then at the end describing how life is like in Sweden today, a country that has never gotten a taste of individual liberty.

GreenCardSeeker
07-25-2008, 04:12 PM
By the way, if anyone is curious about how some specific area of life and politics in Sweden is, I'm happy to answer unless it's too arcane. It might be of use as arguments against statists, citing what failures most of the socialist efforts in this country have been.

hillertexas
07-25-2008, 04:29 PM
Welcome to the forum! :)

I would be very interested in seeing your video.

My question: How does the general population of Sweden feel about the socialist aspects of the country? Are they happy or disgruntled (besides the immigration issue)? Oh, and what woke you up to liberty?

Ozwest
07-25-2008, 04:35 PM
Thanks for your enlightening post.

I trust in your thoughts, but having known several people from Sweden, they seemed happy and not afraid to speak their minds, in a structured way.

Ozwest
07-25-2008, 04:37 PM
Are you a indigenous Swede, or an immigrant?

GreenCardSeeker
07-25-2008, 04:37 PM
Welcome to the forum! :)

I would be very interested in seeing your video.

My question: How does the general population of Sweden feel about the socialist aspects of the country? Are they happy or disgruntled (besides the immigration issue)?

Thanks for the welcome. People would like to see politicians change the immigration policies, but they still keep voting for the party that brought them in, in spite of it so clearly indicating it won't change this policy. When you have an extensive welfare state, people become welfare drug addicts and can't see beyond the next entitlement or whatever they're dependent on, they can't imagine life without these, so they won't risk voting for any other party. Hence, the party can do whatever it wants without worrying about losing voters.

You have maybe 30-40% of the voters very aware of the problems this socialist state has, but they're never able to make any difference with the at least 30-35% of the voters always voting for the SDP, out of reach for any rational arguments. It's pretty much a dictatorship of an uninformed majority. Change seems impossible. The socialists are the only ones that can really get people in large numbers out and march on topics, so they always appear the strongest factor. Political thinking is very stagnant here.

GreenCardSeeker
07-25-2008, 04:41 PM
Are you a indigenous Swede, or an immigrant?

Indigenous. Your friends, did they say what political views they had and what crowd they were in? You can of course discuss matters privately with your friends, but if you openly challenge the perception of the socialdemocratic party as the bringers of light to a backwards country, you quickly face hostility. If you start talking about immigration on a public square or similar, the police will be there within minutes asking who you are, where you belong politically etc and possibly arrest you if your criticism isn't toothless enough. No one hoping to remain in an established party dares to do anything like that.

Ozwest
07-25-2008, 04:50 PM
I spent boozy times with backpackers in OZ.

I never felt anything but un-inhibited fun.

But...

Probably not the right environment to draw conclusions.

hillertexas
07-25-2008, 05:01 PM
What's with all the anti-American propaganda?

GreenCardSeeker
07-25-2008, 05:06 PM
What's with all the anti-American propaganda?

They mostly need it so people don't realize what they're missing. Swedes don't have much left after paying their taxes, don't get to express themselves freely, have to quarrel with the government when they want to do a lot of things etc. In the USA, none of this has traditionally been true, so they need to give a bad picture of the US to prevent a huge brain drain.

Ozwest
07-25-2008, 05:41 PM
They mostly need it so people don't realize what they're missing. Swedes don't have much left after paying their taxes, don't get to express themselves freely, have to quarrel with the government when they want to do a lot of things etc. In the USA, none of this has traditionally been true, so they need to give a bad picture of the US to prevent a huge brain drain.

You hate your country.

Too much.

hillertexas
07-25-2008, 05:50 PM
Is your internet regulated in any way?

Ozwest
07-25-2008, 05:54 PM
Is your internet regulated in any way?

The Swedish (gestapo) police are setting plastic explosives on his front door now.

HaHa

Virginia Libertarian
07-25-2008, 05:54 PM
Hmm this was all very interesting, although from what I've heard in general the Swedes are happy with their government?

GreenCardSeeker
07-25-2008, 05:58 PM
Is your internet regulated in any way?

No central regulation, though there is some regulation on some schools etc. "Racist/xenophobic" sites are sometimes blocked.

Well, come to think of it, last year when a party called the Sweden democrats put up those degrading Mohammed pictures on their website, the government intervened and had the site's ISP take it down through an informal request. There has been a few other occasions when the government has actually used its power to shut down sites. The free discussion forums on www.flashback.se were a concern for the government, so they put pressure on that site's ISP.

Even though they don't regulate the net that much, they sure monitor it, government surveillance of the net is completely unregulated, the government can read people's E-mails if it so desires and watches dissidents that way.

GreenCardSeeker
07-25-2008, 06:00 PM
Hmm this was all very interesting, although from what I've heard in general the Swedes are happy with their government?

That impression might be a result from the social democrats bullying away dissenting voices. Most people you talk to here seem to have their own story about the problems they've had with the government.

Ozwest
07-25-2008, 06:08 PM
GreenCardSeeker,

If you were born and raised in Sweden, and your family lives there...

Why don't you work towards repairing what you have?

You live in Sweden.

You are not a asylum seeker.

GreenCardSeeker
07-25-2008, 06:17 PM
GreenCardSeeker,

If you were born and raised in Sweden, and your family lives there...

Why don't you work towards repairing what you have?

You live in Sweden.

You are not a asylum seeker.

Life here stinks. I'm trying to emigrate to the US, but I don't qualify for those direct ways to get a green card, so I'm entering the DV lottery every year.

Ozwest
07-25-2008, 06:23 PM
Fair enough GreenCardSeeker.

I was thinking about spending some time in Europe next year.

I'm still going to Sweden.

jerry
07-25-2008, 06:33 PM
What's the Groucho quote about corruption? Something about being against it unless in it? But seriously, I theorize that those not accepted into corrupt systems have a conscience that won't let them adapt/sell out. Thus they seek the freeest system in the world to find themselves in. But what if it's ones purpose to stay in their countries and do their best to help make it more ethical? Look at what happened to Canada. All of the best and brightest moved to the States and now Canada is worse off. What would happen to the States if Ron Paul decided to move to some island in the Pacific? Consider staying and finding others like yourself. You might become Sweeden's Ron Paul or at perhaps find him and support him.
I'd also love to see your video. Good Luck!! It's all very confusing.

raystone
07-25-2008, 06:44 PM
thanks for the excellent, detailed info Greencardseeker !

Theocrat
07-25-2008, 07:40 PM
What an engaging and detailed perspective on Swedish politics! Thank you for sharing that with us here at RPF, and welcome to the forums. I took a "Comparative Politics" course once, and we discussed the government of Sweden. It seemed like a socialist State, to me, when I studied it, though my professor seemed to enjoy its political structure (I think he's a closet Communist, myself.).

I'm curious about the culture of the Christian church over there in Sweden. Are they typically statist in their approach to Swedish politics, or are they on the fringes of trying to promote liberty in government and society?

zadrock
07-25-2008, 08:39 PM
I'd be interested to see the video. Whenever I mention how socialism doesn't work to a liberal, they invariably point to the socialist Nirvana that supposedly exists throughout Scandinavia. So it would be nice to be able to counter that claim. Good luck and thanks for the informative post.

Z

The_Orlonater
07-25-2008, 09:31 PM
Welcome to the forums and great post! And it's great that an opinion like this is coming from a Swede too. You help this revolution a great lot! :)

The_Orlonater
07-25-2008, 09:33 PM
What an engaging and detailed perspective on Swedish politics! Thank you for sharing that with us here at RPF, and welcome to the forums. I took a "Comparative Politics" course once, and we discussed the government of Sweden. It seemed like a socialist State, to me, when I studied it, though my professor seemed to enjoy its political structure (I think he's a closet Communist, myself.).

I'm curious about the culture of the Christian church over there in Sweden. Are they typically statist in their approach to Swedish politics, or are they on the fringes of trying to promote liberty in government and society?

Sweden is an atheist nation, and don't have let that have anything to do with their governmental system.

You know you don't want to get into this again. ;)

FreedomRings
07-25-2008, 10:35 PM
I'd love to see that video and if it is good I guarantee you that it will get more than 10,000 views.

I heard that the meaning of the Swedish word for "freedom" has been altered over time to be closely associated with "government", is that true?

Why is third world immigration so popular with the Swedish elite; do they really believe in it or is there another agenda?

Truth Warrior
07-25-2008, 10:41 PM
Where do the Swedish corporations get the money to pay the employee matching income tax?

Thanks! :)

hillertexas
07-25-2008, 11:49 PM
So I assume you have universal healthcare? Could you tell me what happens if you wake up one morning with a toothache? chest pains? I am curious about the actual logistics of universal healthcare. I mean...do you just make an appointment with a dentist?

bill50
07-26-2008, 12:14 AM
Is 80% taxes really a social democracy? Shouldn't that qualify more as a communist country? America has unfortunately turned into a social democracy at what, 40% taxes?

Fox McCloud
07-26-2008, 12:24 AM
Is 80% taxes really a social democracy? Shouldn't that qualify more as a communist country? America has unfortunately turned into a social democracy at what, 40% taxes?

Much MUCH higher if you calculate in inflation.


Either way, I'd definitely be interested in your documentary as well--I'll be looking forward to it! :)

also, what aspects in Swedish life are made free by the State? I assume health-care, entry, and college/university level education are all free...is there anything else?

Also, I heard that if you aren't working at all, you're guaranteed something like $125 a week for spending on anything you want--can you confirm/deny this?

I'd say your unregulated immigration issue wouldn't be a problem if you guys didn't have all your programs--I'd be willing to bet ANYTHING that the vast majority are going there just to get on all the government plans they can. Perhaps that's one reason they [the political elite in your country] want it? All those immigrants get on programs, want more of it, and like it...therefore it gives the elite more support in upcoming elections, and lets them carry on the falsity that "socialism is popular in Sweden!"

Flash
07-26-2008, 12:29 AM
I wonder how long until the native indigineous Swedish people become an ethnic minority? Look at the massive waves of immigrants.

GreenCardSeeker
07-26-2008, 01:13 AM
What an engaging and detailed perspective on Swedish politics! Thank you for sharing that with us here at RPF, and welcome to the forums. I took a "Comparative Politics" course once, and we discussed the government of Sweden. It seemed like a socialist State, to me, when I studied it, though my professor seemed to enjoy its political structure (I think he's a closet Communist, myself.).

I'm curious about the culture of the Christian church over there in Sweden. Are they typically statist in their approach to Swedish politics, or are they on the fringes of trying to promote liberty in government and society?

Up until a few years ago, Sweden had a Lutheran state church where the state exercised power over the church with nothing going in the opposite direction. Now the church has been separated from the state. Religion is quite a small matter in Sweden, attendance is scarce and church leaders have generally not commented on politics. The former head of the Swedish church, KG Hammar, who was the last one to be directly appointed by the government, was a very outspoken leftist though, pushing every socialist issue in the book. On top of that, his sister is a lesbian. This year, the Swedish church is going to take part in the gay pride parade in Stockholm, somehow scripture doesn't seem to matter that much to this church. KG Hammar expressed his support for an "art exhibition" portraying Jesus as a homosexual surrounded by men dressed in leather called Ecce ****. Leftwing politicians around the country like to invite this exhibition to their towns to show how much they defy Christianity, even though the "art" really isn't very good for children to be exposed to.

Sweden does have a few active smaller churches though that don't follow the PC trend. The most well-known is the evangelical Livets Ord(word of life) headed by Ulf Ekman. He's got a bit of international renown, at least in Russia, from travelling there and preaching. Jehova's witnesses have a branch here too. These churches are generally described as dangerous cults here, since religion is so alien to the country. Many people like to take shots at Christianity in general, so life for Christians here is hard.

I guess the Swedish church has simply learned not to question the state if it wants to stay free from attacks.

GreenCardSeeker
07-26-2008, 01:38 AM
I'd love to see that video and if it is good I guarantee you that it will get more than 10,000 views.

I heard that the meaning of the Swedish word for "freedom" has been altered over time to be closely associated with "government", is that true?

[/QUOTE

Hmm, leftists in general have tried to describe freedom as oppression, I suppose it's been more pronounced in Sweden. Capitalism has been described as wage slavery, and they've had the notion that the only way you can become free is if the state intervenes in lots of affairs.

[QUOTE]

Why is third world immigration so popular with the Swedish elite; do they really believe in it or is there another agenda?

The stated reason has been to help refugees from wars etc, yet not much interest has been shown in setting up refugee camps near the home countries of these refugees, in spite of them being able to help many more people for the same money if they did that. The refugees haven't been encouraged to return home after the conflicts in their home country are over either, it's quite apparent that the government intended them to come here permanently. The most rational explanation is that it's been a social experiment, they've intended to prove how superior their socialist system is by taking people from the third world and successfully integrating them in society and making them productive members.

It's been a complete failure though; The immigrants have been given all subsidies needed to settle, and been allowed to settle anywhere in the country. Yet they've chosen to gather in the same cities with their own people, showing a lack of interest in becoming part of Sweden. These cities like Malmö, Södertälje and Rinkeby have become immigrant ghettoes where crime is rampant and unemployment is extremely high. A recent development in Malmö is that they've violently tried to keep Swedes out of the parts of the city they dominate. Just a few months ago, it was reported that fire trucks have to have police escort when they go there, since the immigrants attack firefighters with rocks.

The government still claims all is well with immigration and keeps repeating the idea that it's been good to Sweden, even trying to prove an economic profit in spite of no new jobs having been created while roughly one million immigrants settled here. More realistic estimates by immigration critics have the cost of immigration at around $300 billion Swedish kr per year, or 10% of the GDP. These immigrants commit a majority of the violent crime in the country now. I was really surprised to see Obama visit the immigrant ghetto Södertälje to learn about integration here - what's to learn from a complete failure? I guess the Obama campaign must be quite ignorant.

GreenCardSeeker
07-26-2008, 01:40 AM
Where do the Swedish corporations get the money to pay the employee matching income tax?

Thanks! :)

Small corporations have a really hard time and go broke a lot. These taxes have also caused the loss of many jobs to other countries since it's not as profitable to keep production here.

GreenCardSeeker
07-26-2008, 01:56 AM
So I assume you have universal healthcare? Could you tell me what happens if you wake up one morning with a toothache? chest pains? I am curious about the actual logistics of universal healthcare. I mean...do you just make an appointment with a dentist?

Yep, universal health care, you pay only a fraction of the actual cost when visiting a doctor. I don't have that much experience with health care myself, being fairly fit, but the procedures I've needed have had me wait a long time. I'm in line to get surgery for an in-grown toe nail now, and have had to wait over four months so far for this simple procedure. If the appointment you finally get doesn't suit you, you have to start over again, people sometimes have a feeling that they get appointments just when they're on vacation, a strategy possibly used by the hospitals to manage queues.

Private healthcare is allowed though, but I'm not an expert on just what's subsidized and what isn't. When you visit a private dentist, you pay a minimum of a little over $100, along with roughly $100 per cavity. I'm not sure if these prices are subsidized or not. The public dentistry has really long lines on the other hand, the other year when I contacted them to get cheap dental care, I was told I would have to wait 6 months to enter the system. I assume once you're in the system, you won't have to wait as long for your regular appointments, but this makes it inconvenient for urgent problems of course. Generally you can get emergency care from private caregivers within a few days notice on the other hand. At least it works that way for problems like toothaches.

It can be a real hassle getting your right to elective procedures approved though, your problems have to be really disabling for them to want to finance them. Generally the state doesn't finance even major nuisances like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectus_excavatum .

GreenCardSeeker
07-26-2008, 02:11 AM
Much MUCH higher if you calculate in inflation.


Either way, I'd definitely be interested in your documentary as well--I'll be looking forward to it! :)

also, what aspects in Swedish life are made free by the State? I assume health-care, entry, and college/university level education are all free...is there anything else?



Yep, all education is free. Museums, art exhibitions and such are subsidized as well. I can't seem to come up with anything else that's free right now, but many areas of society are quietly subsidized as well I suppose, hard to be aware of all of them.



Also, I heard that if you aren't working at all, you're guaranteed something like $125 a week for spending on anything you want--can you confirm/deny this?



Yep, the welfare benefits are around that amount along with your rent paid. To qualify for this, you must look for whatever jobs the government tells you to as well as attend whatever employment measures or similar they see fit to provide. These are rarely effective ways of getting the people in them employed, but more something provided for the profit of the service providers, generally a waste of time. Declining to take part leaves you with absolutely no state financing though.



I'd say your unregulated immigration issue wouldn't be a problem if you guys didn't have all your programs--I'd be willing to bet ANYTHING that the vast majority are going there just to get on all the government plans they can. Perhaps that's one reason they [the political elite in your country] want it? All those immigrants get on programs, want more of it, and like it...therefore it gives the elite more support in upcoming elections, and lets them carry on the falsity that "socialism is popular in Sweden!"

Yep, it sure has provided a solid foundation for the election victories of the social democrats. It would be interesting to see voters divided by ethnic origin, but the state doesn't provide such information.

GunnyFreedom
07-26-2008, 03:30 AM
GreenCardSeeker - may I repost the original article to alt.politics.republican on Usenet in reply to a poster who is calling for the US to adopt the Swedish model of economics and Government?

GreenCardSeeker
07-26-2008, 03:42 AM
GreenCardSeeker - may I repost the original article to alt.politics.republican on Usenet in reply to a poster who is calling for the US to adopt the Swedish model of economics and Government?

Sure. You can tell them it's a 31 year old Swede that's gradually lost faith in his society from his experiences with it.

AutoDas
07-26-2008, 03:53 AM
How did you come to be so liberty conscious in such a political society? Parents, friends, or were you always this smart?

GunnyFreedom
07-26-2008, 03:59 AM
Sure. You can tell them it's a 31 year old Swede that's gradually lost faith in his society from his experiences with it.

Thank you so much. I'll keep the thread up to date with any responses about it.

GreenCardSeeker
07-30-2008, 02:58 AM
How did you come to be so liberty conscious in such a political society? Parents, friends, or were you always this smart?

Ooh, hehe, missed your reply here. Thanks for the compliment. It's mostly been from the government stepping on me too much. I've realized that if I had lived in the USA, these things wouldn't have happened. These are the personal reasons I have for seeing the Swedish system in a bad light now:

* When I was in school, I was very much ahead in subjects like math. I was very bored with classes and asked if they had something more advanced, but I learned that Sweden had no gifted programs or anything like that, for ideological reasons - enforced egalitarianism.

* When I was 20 years old and had moved out of my mom's house, they invaded my life due to noticing I matched the diagnosis for something called Asperger's syndrome. They tried to put me in nursing homes and similar, assigned a helper, checked on how I was doing at home so that I could prove that I could live by myself, in spite of me not asking for any of this but merely trying to get them to leave me alone. This went on for months before I finally convinced them there was no need for them to come into my life. It was quite traumatic, it felt like the government was raping me by insinuating I couldn't live independently - and they had absolutely no indication I wasn't able to, all they had to go on was the diagnosis the social workers had made.

* A few years after that, when I visited the employment office hoping to get help in finding a job, I was told they wouldn't even help me with an internship since they had found out I wasn't politically correct in my views. I've never been a public person and didn't wear any political signs or similar, so I asked them where they had gotten this information. The woman at the office giggled and told me "they had their sources". Most likely it was due to the police becoming aware of me having bought server space for a friend's white power homepage and forwarded this information to the employment office.

All in all, I've been treated like dirt by the Swedish state, it's like they would rather have seen me dead due to me not being their ideal socialist citizen. In Sweden, you're not made aware of there actually being more free states in the world, it's mostly from watching this Ron Paul movement that I've learned that the USA has liberty and lots of checks and balances on government that Sweden is missing completely. In Swedish mass media, you get the impression that the only people concerned about state power in the USA is the "black helicopter" crowd, that they're the kind of people that think the government controls the weather to hurt farmers and such. Reality is being distorted so very much over here.

noxagol
07-30-2008, 03:13 AM
Reality is distorted very much everywhere. It's to the point that you have to carefully, and I mean carefully, choose what to believe and who to believe it from. It is just that distorted.

I wish you luck in your endevours over there fighting the good fight. Best thing you can do is convince those closest to you of the ideas of total liberty and freedom and work from there. Liberty is a seed that once sowed will grow quite rapidly.

zeke105
07-30-2008, 08:16 AM
Thanks for the great information. I appreciate your contribution to a better global understanding. It would be great to get this kind of subjective and yet critical perspective from every country.

GreenCardSeeker
07-30-2008, 09:36 AM
Thanks for the great information. I appreciate your contribution to a better global understanding. It would be great to get this kind of subjective and yet critical perspective from every country.

Yes, it feels like in today's world, the only country you get a critical perspective on is the USA. Both European and American media seem to paint a much too rosy picture of Europe's socialist systems. Much of the reason that so much critical material on the USA is available is that it's a fully open and honest society, unlike over here in Europe, where there is quite a bit of consensus between the state and mass media. If mass media was to criticize the government, they'd lose their privileged position. I think American mass media should more aggressively investigate European societies in-depth to counter the picture leftist media presents. When they mention Europe on Fox news etc, it seems like they're content to merely briefly mention stuff like long health care lines etc, which can leave people sceptical whether it's true. The negative portrayal of European socialism is well-founded, yet Americans have most likely not been exposed to polemical material like Michael Moore's movies, that present a very biased picture of the USA. Over here, you'd have plenty of material for such documentaries, but it seems that libertarians and conservatives share very little of the interest in propaganda that the leftists have.

priest_of_syrinx
07-30-2008, 10:49 AM
Hey, if you plan on coming to the United States, but still like the weather in Sweden, come to North Dakota. We're cold as hell in the winter, hot as hell in the summer, and we got 5 delegates for Ron Paul. It's a very good state.

Andrew-Austin
07-30-2008, 11:24 AM
Hey, what part of America are you considering moving to? Wherever it is the cheapest to live or what?

Also, certainly your country has its fair share of dysfunctions, but I'm wondering what Sweden's education is like. Overall I'm sure its markedly better than America's dumbed down education system, even considering the mass of immigrants who bog it down. Also I'm sure Swedish public education is used to indocrtinate kids into believing in the socialist state (slanted history and government classes)?

GreenCardSeeker
07-30-2008, 12:15 PM
Hey, what part of America are you considering moving to? Wherever it is the cheapest to live or what?


Haven't decided yet since I still need a green card and I suppose immigrating illegally might be risky if I suddenly find myself being sent back.



Also, certainly your country has its fair share of dysfunctions, but I'm wondering what Sweden's education is like. Overall I'm sure its markedly better than America's dumbed down education system, even considering the mass of immigrants who bog it down. Also I'm sure Swedish public education is used to indocrtinate kids into believing in the socialist state (slanted history and government classes)?

Hmm, I suppose I could go on for quite a bit about the education system here. When I grew up in a rural area, it was a pretty stable system, though heavily influenced by egalitarian madness, which meant no advancing for gifted pupils. They simply had to accept being bored. I feel the pace of the education was a bit slow, not very competitive, even average students often found themselves finishing tasks early with little to do afterwards. The country has had a pretty strict enforcement of drugs, so you didn't have people getting diagnosed en masse with ADHD and put on drugs for that, I'm not aware of anyone that was on drugs at my school. Maybe because of the uncompetitive environment, they didn't even had to drug the slow learners, I've not had any experience with the American school environment. It seemed normal that everyone finished high school at least.

Anyway, this has changed a bit now, many of the immigrants don't achieve passing grades in core subjects in elementary school, so they can't go to real high school programs. The schools have had to stretch thin a kind of individual program that mostly just seems three years of slacking, to give the appearance that these pupils are actually passing high school.

The curriculum includes quite a bit of discrete indoctrination, yep. In one school book I had, it was even explicitly stated that it was society's fault that people became criminals. Less explicit indoctrination includes presenting religion as something that was embraced by backwards people during the dark ages that didn't know any better and that it suits no purpose today. Instead the state has taken on the god role here, the entity everyone turns to to solve their problems. You're also fed the notion that the whole world has flaws to some extent except the Swedish system, with its own brand of socialism. Since they're in control of the curriculum for the whole time the children are growing up and homeschooling is generally not allowed, they don't have to argue their points in a very active manner, they can do it by slowly building up the sense of what's normal in the child. The state has been extremely hostile towards anyone not using their curriculum. Private schools are allowed, but must use the national curriculum. Homeschooling is generally only allowed if geographic distances don't make going to school possible. In all, out of Sweden's over a million or so pupils, less than 1000 are homeschooled.

A few months back, the state TV had a show on a Christian church that had been able to ignore the curriculum and homeschool children in spite of this not being the law's intention. The show was quite a bit of 1984 hate hour towards the small church called Maranata. The TV interviewers tried to insinuate that the pupils didn't get to see other children etc, to which the pupils replied that they did. You could tell that the state was furious that they were able to educate children without including the state's secular values and beliefs.

strapko
07-30-2008, 02:03 PM
This post upsets me, it seems as if a little more government intervention is implemented... Sweds would be living in the World Orwell described in 1984.

Agent Chameleon
07-30-2008, 02:50 PM
I suppose immigrating illegally might be risky if I suddenly find myself being sent back.


Please don't do that. We have enough illegal immigration problems from Latin America thank you very much. Last thing we need is hordes of Swedes sneaking across our Canadian border. ;p

If you truly desire to become an American, then I say welcome. :)

But if you simply desire to live here for political reasons, then why not follow the advice of some of the other posters and advance the cause of liberty in Sweden?
Start an intellectual movement or maybe run for local office.

Sweden may not be used to freedom, but I don't think that means they can never experience it. Anglo-Saxon traditions of liberty didn't just pop out of nowhere, it was based on a gradual evolution that came from a spark.

And maybe you could be that spark for your country. :)

GreenCardSeeker
07-30-2008, 03:22 PM
Please don't do that. We have enough illegal immigration problems from Latin America thank you very much. Last thing we need is hordes of Swedes sneaking across our Canadian border. ;p

If you truly desire to become an American, then I say welcome. :)

But if you simply desire to live here for political reasons, then why not follow the advice of some of the other posters and advance the cause of liberty in Sweden?
Start an intellectual movement or maybe run for local office.

Sweden may not be used to freedom, but I don't think that means they can never experience it. Anglo-Saxon traditions of liberty didn't just pop out of nowhere, it was based on a gradual evolution that came from a spark.

And maybe you could be that spark for your country. :)

Thanks for the welcome. I've tried to figure out how to set this country straight for some time now, but I just can't figure out how. The social democrats have a pretty successful strategy of bullying away dissidents, even the centrists/right in this country are really moderate for fear of their intimidation. The social democrats have their faithful voters that are convinced people can't live without the state and this system, that always vote for them. It's an extremely stagnant system, it's hard to see how you can make any difference here. Personally I feel I've tried my best and shouldn't waste my life away fighting a hopeless cause. It's so frustrating having to deal with almost braindead zealots.

Mach
07-30-2008, 03:39 PM
So I assume you have universal healthcare? Could you tell me what happens if you wake up one morning with a toothache? chest pains? I am curious about the actual logistics of universal healthcare. I mean...do you just make an appointment with a dentist?

As far as the healthcare goes, here is an example from Canada, not sure how Universally comparable Canada and Sweden are though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRKl_llvepY

majinkoola
07-30-2008, 04:58 PM
I understand how this guy feels. I'm an American, but I spent last semester in Scotland. A country known for freedom should embrace libertarianism, right? Wrong.

Of about 20 people I talked to about national healthcare (old and young people), only one was against it and one was straddling the fence on the issue. Everyone else was in full support. When I talked about the CCTV's everywhere, people said how they were there to prevent crime and did not seem to see the 1984 parallel. Nobody had heard of Ron Paul or libertarianism. The VAT is already included in the posted price of goods so I think people don't realize how much it is. When I brought up the gun control people talked about the lack of gun crime, failing to recognize the subsequent increase in stabbings.

At the same time people cried about how hard it was to get a job and how much everything cost, not realizing that all the gov't intervention caused those problems.

Everyone was like that, except the taxi driver who drove me to the airport as I got out of there. A libertarian in his views, as I think most a-political people are.

And don't condemn GreenCardSeeker for wanting to leave in pursuit of freedom. How did America come about again?

Agent Chameleon
07-30-2008, 06:41 PM
And don't condemn GreenCardSeeker for wanting to leave in pursuit of freedom. How did America come about again?

I wasn't condemning him; just telling him to not enter my country the unlawful way.

Agent Chameleon
07-30-2008, 06:46 PM
Thanks for the welcome. I've tried to figure out how to set this country straight for some time now, but I just can't figure out how. The social democrats have a pretty successful strategy of bullying away dissidents, even the centrists/right in this country are really moderate for fear of their intimidation. The social democrats have their faithful voters that are convinced people can't live without the state and this system, that always vote for them. It's an extremely stagnant system, it's hard to see how you can make any difference here. Personally I feel I've tried my best and shouldn't waste my life away fighting a hopeless cause. It's so frustrating having to deal with almost braindead zealots.

The situation in Sweden sounds awful, but America is sadly heading in that direction. If you read enough threads on this forum you'll find out that America has its own share of statists that control this country.

If you move here, be prepared to fight for the freedoms that you seek.

AutoDas
07-30-2008, 11:43 PM
I've heard Switzerland is the most libertarian European country. I wonder if it's more free than America.

Hiki
07-31-2008, 03:11 AM
I've heard Switzerland is the most libertarian European country. I wonder if it's more free than America.

No that would be Holland.

Kade
08-18-2008, 09:15 AM
Indigenous. Your friends, did they say what political views they had and what crowd they were in? You can of course discuss matters privately with your friends, but if you openly challenge the perception of the socialdemocratic party as the bringers of light to a backwards country, you quickly face hostility. If you start talking about immigration on a public square or similar, the police will be there within minutes asking who you are, where you belong politically etc and possibly arrest you if your criticism isn't toothless enough. No one hoping to remain in an established party dares to do anything like that.

Same shit here, different color.

kojirodensetsu
08-22-2008, 07:00 AM
I talk to this swedish girl from the internet. Somehow a political discussion started one time. I ended up saying that I'm against universal healthcare. And she almost seemed offended that I would be against it. She kept drilling at me with statements like "if I hadn't gotten free healthcare I'd be dead. Do you want me to be dead?"

And then she told me that in Sweden the government just.. gives people housing if they don't have one. I would have talked about that but I didn't want to have to listen to "do you want to see me homeless?"

Then when talking about private business she said she was fine with them, but seem to have a rather biased opinion against them. She cited a friend's bad experience with a private dentist and seemed to base her whole opinion on private businesses around that. Or at least, is using that as her justification.


She did complain about the immigration issue, but beyond that she seemed happy with the state the government is in.

GreenCardSeeker
08-22-2008, 07:26 AM
I talk to this swedish girl from the internet. Somehow a political discussion started one time. I ended up saying that I'm against universal healthcare. And she almost seemed offended that I would be against it. She kept drilling at me with statements like "if I hadn't gotten free healthcare I'd be dead. Do you want me to be dead?"


Sounds a little like the desperado mentality the leftists here have. Swedes in general have poor self esteem and many feel the government is the only thing that is keeping them safe from the horrors of capitalism. Half a year ago I went to a doctor for an ingrown toenail and got a surgery appointment for which they said the line was three months. The other week I got a notice I would finally get it now, pretty exactly 6 months after the first doctor's visit. I feel this shouldn't take this long, it's not a procedure that requires much of an expert anyway, it's just traditional surgery cutting the nail a bit.



And then she told me that in Sweden the government just.. gives people housing if they don't have one. I would have talked about that but I didn't want to have to listen to "do you want to see me homeless?"


The government having housing for everyone here is very much a truth with modification. If you can't get an apartment by yourself, you might have to live in a group home with drug addicts and such. You should see the waiting lines for apartments in Stockholm btw, it's 20 years to get one there.. Quite a lot of planning ahead required, it's a pretty good sign of how it works when you try to ignore market factors. I suppose it's fairly easy to get an apartment of your own in the northern part of the country since the population in that part is diminishing and there are many empty publicly owned ones, but that's not the case in the big cities. Sweden has quite a few homeless people, I think Stockholm alone has like 5'000. They also suffer the fate of being stereotyped by the political establishment, it's insinuated that they themselves are to blame for it, that the government really tried to help them, when in fact many people don't get help paying their rents or getting apartments. Government bureacrats prefer to spend the money on services they provide instead of essentials like housing.



Then when talking about private business she said she was fine with them, but seem to have a rather biased opinion against them. She cited a friend's bad experience with a private dentist and seemed to base her whole opinion on private businesses around that. Or at least, is using that as her justification.


Sounds like she's one of those retarded social democrats that have been brought up with "class warfare" beliefs, who feel capitalists are thieves etc. It can be really annoying talking to them since they're so entrenched in their ideology, they've never known anything else or been open to hearing any other views. The mentality is that it's "us versus the enemy", with the enemy being anyone who disagrees. I find it quite ironic that while the social democratic voters are generally opposed to immigration, they're also opposed to any party that tries to change these policies since the social democratic party has declared them to be the enemy. Scary as it sounds, for decades the social democrats have used the word "enemy" among themselves for political opponents. It's an attitude that doesn't belong in a democracy of course.

user
08-22-2008, 07:27 AM
Hello GreenCardSeeker, I just saw your other thread. I'm always interested to hear from those outside the US. Welcome!

I hope you find the US to be an improvement over Sweden, not for nationalistic reasons but for your own sake. Having lived here for so long, I'm disappointed by a lot of things here, but it could be much worse.

GreenCardSeeker
08-22-2008, 07:38 AM
Hello GreenCardSeeker, I just saw your other thread. I'm always interested to hear from those outside the US. Welcome!

I hope you find the US to be an improvement over Sweden, not for nationalistic reasons but for your own sake. Having lived here for so long, I'm disappointed by a lot of things here, but it could be much worse.

Ah, thanks for the welcome. Yep, I'm hoping for a better life than this too, I don't want life to be a matter of paying most of your salary in taxes(that is, if the economy works well enough to provide jobs) and then having to beg for services I need from the government, and asking them for approval for so many things. I guess we all dream of the perfect place to live, but all countries have flaws I suppose, but the USA clearly stands above the rest, even though mass media in the country is willing to put on display all the failures of the country. In most countries, mass media doesn't really criticise the government, but works with it instead, presenting an image of the system as terrific.

I heard something funny today btw - the state TV had a show on China, and a Swedish businessman that had settled there was asked by a caller whether it was "as easy" to start a business in China as in Sweden.. The businessman said it was so much easier in China. That shows you the lack of insight Swedes in general have, thinking it's easy to start a business here when it's probably the hardest country in the world to do it in with all the paper work and taxes.

user
08-22-2008, 07:57 AM
Ah, thanks for the welcome. Yep, I'm hoping for a better life than this too, I don't want life to be a matter of paying most of your salary in taxes(that is, if the economy works well enough to provide jobs) and then having to beg for services I need from the government, and asking them for approval for so many things. I guess we all dream of the perfect place to live, but all countries have flaws I suppose, but the USA clearly stands above the rest, even though mass media in the country is willing to put on display all the failures of the country. In most countries, mass media doesn't really criticise the government, but works with it instead, presenting an image of the system as terrific.

I heard something funny today btw - the state TV had a show on China, and a Swedish businessman that had settled there was asked by a caller whether it was "as easy" to start a business in China as in Sweden.. The businessman said it was so much easier in China. That shows you the lack of insight Swedes in general have, thinking it's easy to start a business here when it's probably the hardest country in the world to do it in with all the paper work and taxes.
That is a good point. China seems to be loosening economic restrictions very quickly while maintaining strict limits on civil liberties. On one hand, I'm glad freedom and prosperity are increasing, but on the other, I'm concerned that success can be achieved without more personal freedom, even if that effect is temporary.

GreenCardSeeker
08-22-2008, 08:17 AM
That is a good point. China seems to be loosening economic restrictions very quickly while maintaining strict limits on civil liberties. On one hand, I'm glad freedom and prosperity are increasing, but on the other, I'm concerned that success can be achieved without more personal freedom, even if that effect is temporary.

Yep, you'd wish they'd come hand in hand. It's a bit interesting to note that Asian tyranny doesn't seem to have as negative an impact on the economy that European tyranny has though. It's a bit funny that China officially calls itself socialist/communist now even though it seems to have more economic liberty than many European countries. They usually say something like that they achieve the goals of socialism through capitalism.. You'd wish Western socialists would learn from that. :-P

user
08-22-2008, 08:22 AM
Yep, you'd wish they'd come hand in hand. It's a bit interesting to note that Asian tyranny doesn't seem to have as negative an impact on the economy that European tyranny has though. It's a bit funny that China officially calls itself socialist/communist now even though it seems to have more economic liberty than many European countries. They usually say something like that they achieve the goals of socialism through capitalism.. You'd wish Western socialists would learn from that. :-P
Indeed. I'd say it has something to do with the failure of democracy itself.

canadian4ronpaul
08-22-2008, 12:29 PM
greencard i have to say that was one of the most interesting points I have seen in a long time. socialists and liberals here in canada ALWAYS bring up sweden and how good life is over there when I try to debate with them, and its good to have a point of view of someone who actually lived there. I was pretty shocked to see some of the things I saw, it seems like you are a borderline communist state already. Interesting points about immigration as well. I cant wait to see your movie. However I think you should push for freedom in sweden. keep trying to convert people to the message of liberty before you arrive in america!

GreenCardSeeker
08-22-2008, 01:12 PM
greencard i have to say that was one of the most interesting points I have seen in a long time. socialists and liberals here in canada ALWAYS bring up sweden and how good life is over there when I try to debate with them, and its good to have a point of view of someone who actually lived there. I was pretty shocked to see some of the things I saw, it seems like you are a borderline communist state already. Interesting points about immigration as well. I cant wait to see your movie. However I think you should push for freedom in sweden. keep trying to convert people to the message of liberty before you arrive in america!

Thanks for the appreciation. It's scary to hear people praise the Swedish model, but I guess that's the consequence of really onesided reporting. The Swedish government itself keeps telling its citizens that the system is the best in the world, and it's got quite a bit of extrajudicial punishment in store for people who disagree, so criticism is stifled. Corrupt organisations like Amnesty international that pretend to fight for human rights also refuse to cover state atrocities in Sweden since this system is their ideal one, they don't want it to look bad. I guess this shows the importance of spreading the word of how Sweden is really like, not the fairy tale international organizations like that keep spreading.