Ron Paul vs. War Mongers Heated Discussion

[wgadget]

Please go and inform the misinformed:

http://lonestartimes.com/2007/08/29/the-other-ron-paul-supporters/

[nexalacer]

you know, I'm a big supporter of informing the misinformed, but I think war-mongers are impossible to change from the outside. Usually they have been so indoctrinated with fear, the only possible way for them to change is for them to have a revelation of some sort. "I don't have to fear a worldwide Islamic revolution (conversion) because most Muslims just want to live their lives out successfully and peacefully just like I do!" Something along those lines.... but basically they are so afraid, they've completely abandoned reason and rationality, to the point where they will argue with you until they're blue in the face how they hate us and won't stop until we're all dead or Muslim. Do what you want, but I don't waste my time with war-mongers. I prefer to try to educate those who want my goals, but have been misled on the proper means to those goals... (hint, hint, starts with Dem ends with Rats.... HEHE...meat).

[bcmiller]

I am not so sure... I think you may not get the one posting to give in because the will feel to proud but more ppl read a thread than post in them.

I am making good progress here, feel free to reuse my ammo.

http://www.firesociety.com/forum/thread/16986/Grassfire.org-August-September-2007-Presidential-Straw-Poll/?page=6

I'll give this new one a go too. Like I said, glutton for punishment.

[angelatc]

http://www.firesociety.com/article/14468 - is the top secret link to the results of his last poll.

It took him so long to release it that I practically forgot about it. He was supposed to release the results after Memorial Day, IIRC.

I don't trust Steve, the guy that runs that site, at all.

[bcmiller]

I am continuing to fight the good fight over there and this is my latest attempt in a real rah rah pro war thread (http://www.firesociety.com/forum/thread/15769/History-Will-Harshly-Judge-Those-for-Iraq-Withdrawal/).


I agree with some of this article and I would like to point out Ron Paul's strong opposition to this war long before even 9/11 and even on 9/12/01 he gave a speech that spoke of the warfare state that was to come and the casualties to our liberties.

The real enemy is fear. The current administration wants us to live in fear and the only way to protect ourselves is to fork over the bill of rights and hope the Federal Government can protect us better than they did on 9/11.

I think that the only reason the major politicians are opposed to the war now is for political expediency. So they are right for the wrong reasons. The people who told us this war would be a cakewalk are now saying if we leave it will be bedlam. The American people are victims of the US Government's overreaching interventionist foreign policy and now that it's all borked up the message is, "Hey, I know we messed up getting into this war and during it's execution, but we can't leave now or it will be worse". I just choose to stop believing them and I'll start believing the man who has been right all along. Ron Paul.

What of the lesson of Vietnam? We didn't want to pull out there, it would mean communism would run rampant across the globe, but we had no choice. The war was undeclared and unwinnable. My father gave up a leg for the effort, if he was alive today he would echo my sentiments I am sure. He was a brave man and a proud soldier but when a kid was going to fight after he came home he tried to talk him out of going. That kid came home in plastic, and for what? I am very proud of the military but not of the policies that have us occupying the globe as if our answer for government could be spread by the barrel of a gun.

We should defend our nation, trade with countries, stop supporting military dictatorships, like Pakistan while we talk about freedoms in Iraq and deny them at home.

[bcmiller]

I am being threatened with a ban in another thread now...

Here is a PM I sent after the mod accused me of trolling here (http://www.firesociety.com/forum/thread/15747/MrT/?page=3).


Ok, Im really confused. I am sure the comments below are trolling but I didn't respond to them because that is not why I am here. I am just expressing my opinions in discussion threads. I wasn't trolling when I expressed my opinion about what FireWing wanted to accomplish. I don't think you could honestly accuse what I have done on this forum as trolling, if you are honest.

Im just going to keep on truckin' you think it's bannable, ban away.

Im not here to start trouble, or pile on, just get the word out.

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FireWing said:
If this forum is going to turn into the Airhead America forum---I'm out of here.
Been there, done that with those morons. They can't stop talking about the same old things.

the elephant in the room

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FireWing said:
So true, MrT. Neokookery has run amok.

the elephant in the room
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[Broadlighter]

The two RP bashers are basically trolls just trying to rile up the Ron Paul supporters.

[bcmiller]

Look at what I am up against here (http://www.firesociety.com/forum/thread/16999/FRENCH-FRIES-MAY-BE-COMING-BACK/).

I added the bolding.



Capt. Karl said:

We have to stop and chances are we probably have to entirely destroy the entire Caliphate, Bob.


Now I "think" there must be a lot of good people in Iran and elsewhere. I don't know exactly how we are going to do it but, the way I see it, we have to find some way, as awful as it sounds and almost definitely is, decontaminate all Islamo-fascists who subscribe to the Caliphate everywhere. What does this mean? They are embedded in with populations all over the world. I do not see anyway out of it but a McCarthy(?) style program.

Eventually the "good" people of the Earth will have to resort to this until such time as the remaining "good peace loving" Mass Muslim population condemns and takes care of the entire problem with in their people, in a physical violent way, themselves. If we really start getting mad and go all out, I think the "good" Muslims will say enough is enough and will turn on the bad. That is what I think. But we have to get so mad that we start resolving the problem, like my football coach used to tell me, with reckless abandon. Then when the world has regained and earned respect for the West and America, it is then that the "good" Muslims will say; "Stop this horror. We will eradicate our evil ones ourselves, so we can all live in peace."


I suppose we are going to have to loose a city or three for this to happen, only due to the liberal wackos of our country.


What is respect, at it's very essence? It is fear. It is all kinds of fear, but never-the-less some form of fear. It is the fear of what will happen to you or your environment should you decide to disrespect somebody. This includes the fear of losing a friend who is either fun and/or very kind to you. It also includes somebody who could help you to get ahead and have a better life in someway and you fear losing their support. It also includes the fear of somebody who has the influence to hinder or make bad your life in someway. In all cases RESPECT means some level of fear. As a kid you might respect an adult because you fear that if you don't, that adult will turn you over or tell somebody who has the power to discipline you, like your parents or principal, police, etc... Respect is always EARNED and it often is not easily EARNED. It is the ability to earn some method of fear in others in some way.


When I was in junior high there were bullies two grade higher, taller and bigger than me. They constantly picked on me and other kids in my 6th grade class. Finally I got fed up with them picking on me and a whole bunch of other kids. Despite the fact that they were older and bigger than me and the fact that I was scared myself, I smashed them at various fights that they (evilly and down right meanly) physically started. After that when I walked down the hall they stood well to the side and didn't dare to threaten me or anybody else. In fact they, all these big guys, wanted to be my best friends. They constantly wanted to talk with me and do things with me. They respected me greatly ever since. When I was a freshman in high school they offered me rides in their cars and asked me to spend time with them. Sort of like Germany and Japan with America.

We need to EARN a hell of a lot of respect from Muslims all over the world. We have to find a way to smash them and wipe them out just like we did to Germany and Japan, so that they can respect us, turn from their evil ways, and become our friends, like Germany, Japan and the bullies from junior high. Until we understand that, we are going to be in trouble and constantly under threat, just like me and a lot of our 6th grade class were. The way I see it, because these bullies are all over North and South America, Europe, Africa and Asia and embedded with in the populations there of, we'll just have to ferret them out 1 - 300 at a time and smash them to oblivion or at least to total submission. Anybody who doesn't agree with that is naive and does not have the mental capacity to understand that we are really at war and are best represented by the three ignorant apes - hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

[nayjevin]

ron paul's debate comment is perfect, imo

'we cannot reject the just war doctrine of Christianity'

of course, christianity isn't where I get my morals, but it's an effective statement

[bcmiller]

This guy is the other contributor to this thread but he at least is very well reasoned and he even footnoted his reply, I am impressed. I will need to give a good think on this reply. His bulleting doesn't work here so you might need to follow the link to see the formatting, it's superb.





Do you understand that the fear argument that you are promoting is the same one used to take our rights here?1 Yes, radical Islam wants us dead2, but to deny that our actions reinforce their opinions about us is not responsible.3 We installed the Shah in Iran and caused 26 years of hell for Iran. 4

Sure the Koran can be used for evil purposes5, but they would all be watching 'The View' and eating at McDonalds and ignoring the Koran the way we ignore the Bible here, if we were not pursuing an interventionist foreign policy.6

It is possible to understand their motivations without making them dictate our lives7. Nikita Khrushchev directly threatened the US and the Soviets were much more threatening than Al Qaeda or Iran. Lets do what we did then, stay free and American and make our national defense a priority over these international adventures.8 Look at the laws that have been passed in the name of fear. The Patriot Act is not patriotic.9 The executive orders that the President passed give him totalitarian power.10 That is the danger moreso than Al Queda. In the end, we will have lost our freedom in defense of freedom because of fear, real or imagined.11


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Yours is a typical straw man argument; you put your own argument in my keyboard and then argue against it. I promote awareness, not fear. Promoting fear is Islam's tactic. They want us to be terrorized, helpless and hopeless.
'Radical Islam' is a shibboleth. Islam is Islam is Islam; Jihad, terror & genocide are intrinsic sacraments of Islam, not a special attribute of 'radicalism' or fundamentalism'. Muhammad, claiming to speak for Allah, sanctified, mandated and exemplified them. He defined Islam. That's what Islam is, what Islam does; what Islam was designed to do: to perpetuate war so that Muhammad could take 20% of the spoils off the top and a continuing stream of tribute payments.
Opinion has nothing to do with Jihad. Jihad is doctrine driven. If you don't participate in Jihad, you will burn in Hell; if you do, you will lounge in Paradise. If you are killed fighting Kuffar, you'll get one of the best seats in the celestial bordello.
Totally irrelevant. Islam expanded militarily long before the founding of America. The attempted reconquest of Israel long predates the Shah, as did the Kashmir conflict. Islam was attacking American merchant vessels in the 17th century because their demon commanded them to make war on disbelievers and take their property.
The Qur'an was recited for an evil purpose: to motivate Muslims to prey on disbelievers for Muhammad's personal emolument. Anyone can read 8:1, 8:41, 8:67, 33:27 & 48:20 to verify that fact. The Qur'an has no other use or function. Islam is Islam, not radical, fundamentalist, extremist, hijacked nor perverted.
You have injected two irrelevant and false arguments.
"they would all": Jihad requires neither unanimity nor majority. It requires only a sufficient number to accomplish the purpose. Once they combine Pakistan's nuclear warheads with an effective delivery system, fewer will be required.
"interventionist foreign policy": In what Istan were we intervening in 1805? What were we doing to provoke Muslims? What intervention were Yemen, Egypt, Persia & Syria engaged in when Caliph Umar invaded them? Yours is the argument of the hate America; blame America first left.
Anyone who will read and comprehend the Qur'an & Sunnah will understand their motivation, just as I do: the damnable doctrines and practices of Muhammad; nothing more, nothing less. The only thing they dictate is the necessity of either emancipating them from Allah's yoke or ushering them into his eternal fire pit.
The damn fool invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, while execrable policy, wasteful & ineffective, are defensive reactions; counter attacks, nor "adventures". Common sense dictates using our technological superiority to devastate the enemy, just as we ended WW2 in the Pacific Theater. The enemy is Islam, not any specific nation. Eliminating terrorism requires eliminating Islam. Replacing dictatorships with "Islamic democracies" is the ultimate in idiocy.
The Patriot Act is a reflection of the Bush Administration's idiocy. There is no possibility of protecting every soft target 24\7\365 in perpetuity. Eliminating the enemy is the only possibility. For every lesser measure there is a counter measure, and the enemy will find it. Islam's persistence is demonstrated by its 1383 year track record and its 60 years of continuous attacks against Israel. Fools never learn. I do not intend to be diverted into a debate of the Patriot Act.
Your excessive exaggeration speaks for itself, it does not merit response.
Preserving our freedom requires eliminating Islam and replacing the left wingers in Congress, the Judiciary and the bureaucracy with conservative statesmen, not with conmen & loonies.


Wow, I read that better and I take it back... it's not well reasoned at all. Here is my reply. I know I am copying another forum but it may help arm another RP guy in a similar argument. I should have said "researched" and not "reasoned", he seems to call for genocide.



I guess I will not comment on your 10th bullet because it leads back to the patriot act and you are intent on sticking with foreign policy. It seems like we have several areas of agreement. First off, your reply is well reasoned and beautifully bulleted and footnoted. That is very impressive and Im not being sarcastic.

Areas of agreement:

The domestic policy is foolish and unrealistic.

We need a large turnover in the congress (although not really an agreement since we wouldn't want the same people)

Ok well not that many agreements... seemed like more.

Area's of disagreement:

The installing of the Shah in Iran did have consequenses. The Christian world has fought Islam since almost it's inception but the reasons for this latest resurgence was cited by the terrorists themselves, the 9/11 report, CIA folks who reported on this issue, and the link I posted earlier in the thread supports this. As well reasoned as you are, you can't just reject that cause because there were others.

We are persuing the current policy and selling it to the American people based on fear. In my opinion, you are selling the fear argument, but only in respect to foreign policy.

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You say that, "Replacing dictatorships with "Islamic democracies" is the ultimate in idiocy." What do you plan on replacing them with?

Are you calling for the death of all of Islam? This may sound like a rhetorical device but it's an honest question. The reason I ask is because of these statments.

"'Radical Islam' is a shibboleth. Islam is Islam is Islam; Jihad, terror & genocide are intrinsic sacraments of Islam"

"Eliminating the enemy is the only possibility."

Unless I am missing something, If there is no difference between different followers of Islam and they are the enemy AND if the only way to solve the problem is illimination of the enemy. What other solution do you offer?

I thought your reply was less extreme than the one from Capt Karl but you seem to be in total agreement.

[Misesian]

bcmiller,

Looks like you've been doing a great job over there at FireSociety.com

These Grassfire type Republicans are certainly ones we need to go after as they're borderline neoconservative but I think the whole amnesty/NAU thing is awakening a LOT of them. Though they need to understand that the NAU is a bad thing because it only further renders our Constitution useless. We've GOT to get these people to read our Declaration and our Constitution to get a full awakening.

I mean heck, I simply just looked PAST the whole anti-war thing when I registered with the America First Party and even when I started liking Ron Paul. There ARE warmongers out there who support Ron Paul as well, and that's fine because we need them, just like we need the wealth redistributors supporting him too.

[LibertyEagle]

I applaud those of you doing this. I just about burned myself out over on Townhall talking to similar idiots with which you are dealing.

[Misesian]

I applaud those of you doing this. I just about burned myself out over on Townhall talking to similar idiots with which you are dealing.

Townhall.com also has forums?

I think that some of us SHOULD go over to the Hannity.com forums but this will NOT be for the faint-hearted. Though I think that would have to actuall be a plan which would involve trying to steer discussions AWAY from the war issue and try to get those Hanicons to be able to actually see that they agree with him on at least 80% of the issues.

I might give Hannity.com forums a try later on, but I just know if we go in there and even defend ourselves against the trolls we'll be eaten up alive. I did a search for "Ron Paul" in their forums not too long ago and didn't find many results. FireSociety.com is also becoming a Ron Paul dominant message forum! You guys did that!!!

[hard@work]

bcmiller - You are an amazing and eloquent patriot. We should all take note of your method and style.