View Full Version : What If We Declared Independence?
aspiringconstitutionalist
07-15-2008, 03:54 PM
Just floating an idea here:
I know this sounds kind of agorist, but I'm not going that far. What if we drafted a new Declaration of Independence, and instead of declaring an entire geographic region independent from this federal government, each individual citizen declared their independence from the government currently in Washington D.C. and simply declared our allegiance to the Constitution of the United States?
Sounds a bit strange, but what would happen if we got millions of American citizens to declare independence from the current federal government, proclaim allegiance to the Constitution, elect new officials (a new President--heck, we would probably just elect Ron Paul, new Senators, new Representatives, etc.) according to the Constitution, and just say that the current "elected officials" in Washington have forfeited their right to govern because of their violations of the Constitution and are therefore illegitimate?
I'm probably just adding more dirt to my FBI file by posting this, but...
Thoughts?
noxagol
07-15-2008, 03:57 PM
OK. Only if certain changes can be made to the Constitution though by adding further and more clear and well defined limits. One of my biggest complaints is that the Constitution doesn't specifically limit the president's ability to direct the military to go about the world. All it says is he is commander in chief and only Congress can declare war. I would add that the president can't order any troops out of our borders or waters or airspace unless we are in a declared war.
aspiringconstitutionalist
07-15-2008, 04:00 PM
OK. Only if certain changes can be made to the Constitution though by adding further and more clear and well defined limits. One of my biggest complaints is that the Constitution doesn't specifically limit the president's ability to direct the military to go about the world. All it says is he is commander in chief and only Congress can declare war. I would add that the president can't order any troops out of our borders or waters or airspace unless we are in a declared war.
I don't see any reason why, in the hypothetical situation that we got enough people on board with this, we couldn't just tell our representatives to amend the Constitution. If we could do it all over again, I say we fulfill Thomas Jefferson's dream by taking away the government's power to borrow money.
And of course other things as well... Repeal the 16th Amendment. Perhaps, add a balanced budget amendment. Lots of clarifying and whatnot (especially make the point of the 10th Amendment more blunt--perhaps saying explicitly that the federal government is "denied" [using that specific word] any power not granted to it by the Constitution).
noxagol
07-15-2008, 04:01 PM
I don't see any reason why, in the hypothetical situation that we got enough people on board with this, we couldn't just tell our representatives to amend the Constitution. If we could do it all over again, I say we fulfill Thomas Jefferson's dream by taking away the government's power to borrow money.
Well, borrowing serves a purpose for times of emergency. I think that government should only be allowed to borrow when in a declared state of war. Other than that tough shit.
slothman
07-15-2008, 04:04 PM
OK. Only if certain changes can be made to the Constitution though by adding further and more clear and well defined limits. One of my biggest complaints is that the Constitution doesn't specifically limit the president's ability to direct the military to go about the world. All it says is he is commander in chief and only Congress can declare war. I would add that the president can't order any troops out of our borders or waters or airspace unless we are in a declared war.
I thought of that a while ago also.
My version would be that the POTUS can't enter country unless either they allow us or we declare war.
noxagol
07-15-2008, 04:06 PM
I thought of that a while ago also.
My version would be that the POTUS can't enter country unless either they allow us or we declare war.
I don't think that they should be able to keep military units in another country unless we are using that as a springboard to a country we have declared war on. Once we win it, then they all come home from both the defeated enemy and the friendly nations kind enough to let us use their land for a bit. All the countries we have troops in now are letting us keep them there except Afghanistan and Iraq who we invaded.
aspiringconstitutionalist
07-15-2008, 04:06 PM
I'm sure if this plan ever went forward, there would be a new Constitutional Convention to sort out all the details.
But for the time being, what are your thoughts about the feasability of a new Declaration of Independence? Feasability in terms of getting enough people to go along with it, and in terms of not getting our seccessionist asses wiped off the face of the earth by the military.
noxagol
07-15-2008, 04:07 PM
I'm sure if this plan ever went forward, there would be a new Constitutional Convention to sort out all the details.
But for the time being, what are your thoughts about the feasability of a new Declaration of Independence? Feasability in terms of getting enough people to go along with it, and in terms of not getting our seccessionist asses wiped off the face of the earth by the military.
Draft one and we shall see. Don't wait for everyone to get on board before starting the train.
aspiringconstitutionalist
07-15-2008, 04:11 PM
If one were to be drafted, it should probably be more of a group effort, no?
Really, at this point, I'm just throwing out a crazy idea to see how much support there would be and to see what kind of points, both pro and con, people come up with concerning the idea.
bew2005
07-15-2008, 05:13 PM
You can renounce your citizenship in the US very easily. I truly think just saying the words has the power. Also, if you say the pledge of allegiance to another country's flag, that also counts. There may be other ways, but it is very easy to do.
aspiringconstitutionalist
07-15-2008, 05:24 PM
You can renounce your citizenship in the US very easily. I truly think just saying the words has the power. Also, if you say the pledge of allegiance to another country's flag, that also counts. There may be other ways, but it is very easy to do.
I don't think renunciation of US citizenship is the goal here. I think the point is to stay a US citizen but to renounce the authority of the officials in Washington, D.C. who have violated the Constitution, while staying an American and still having allegiance to the Constitution.
constituent
07-15-2008, 05:40 PM
i can't imagine the gov't we would end up w/ these days. if we declare independence it should be from government entirely.
aspiringconstitutionalist
07-15-2008, 05:42 PM
i can't imagine the gov't we would end up w/ these days. if we declare independence it should be from government entirely.
You mean anarchism?
constituent
07-15-2008, 05:48 PM
You mean anarchism?
yes. yes, i do.
although, i don't think the word does the concept justice.
it's not an issue of no rule of law, or an absence of "justice"
i just feel that as networked as humanity has become, "government" is practically obsolete in terms of "social accountability."
MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
07-15-2008, 06:48 PM
Well, borrowing serves a purpose for times of emergency. I think that government should only be allowed to borrow when in a declared state of war. Other than that tough shit.
If that's what it took, they'd just be in a perpetual state of war or something.
Anti Federalist
07-15-2008, 06:59 PM
Secession is the answer.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=146272
JosephTheLibertarian
07-15-2008, 07:41 PM
yes. yes, i do.
although, i don't think the word does the concept justice.
it's not an issue of no rule of law, or an absence of "justice"
i just feel that as networked as humanity has become, "government" is practically obsolete in terms of "social accountability."
How about anarchy? That's more my style :cool:
Arklatex
07-15-2008, 09:20 PM
Ofcourse, let's do it. All efforts and signals to this effect are needed.
Fyretrohl
07-15-2008, 10:06 PM
I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of THESE United States of America. And to the states, for which it stands, one Constitution, under God, inviolable, with liberty and justice for all.
aspiringconstitutionalist
07-15-2008, 10:17 PM
And to the states
Republic.
;)
Fyretrohl
07-15-2008, 10:18 PM
Republic.
;)
Changed for a reason. It is Repulic and THAT has been abused. I want it FULLY recognized that the States are the greater authority.
JosephTheLibertarian
07-15-2008, 10:23 PM
Changed for a reason. It is Repulic and THAT has been abused. I want it FULLY recognized that the States are the greater authority.
So you support a commonwealth? All of the states ARE would-be republics, dude ;)
noxagol
07-16-2008, 06:39 AM
If that's what it took, they'd just be in a perpetual state of war or something.
I doubt it. People would wonder why we are in war when we aren't at war. The declaration might seem insignificant but it makes a huge difference.
Fyretrohl
07-16-2008, 10:13 AM
So you support a commonwealth? All of the states ARE would-be republics, dude ;)
I am referring to the fact that it currently states Republic and that has been used to allow the abuses of power today.
CUnknown
07-16-2008, 12:51 PM
I love this idea!
Someone should start up a website and get signatures. If we got a majority of the people, I think we'd have a good legal case that we could just start up our own government. Of course, the current corrupt regime would have to deal with us at that point, heh. It's a great idea to bring attention to the movement and to promote the peaceful rEVOLution that we all want.
I think we could get tons of people to sign it. So many people are angry right now, I mean, what's Congress's approval rating, 8%? The way to approach it would be to simply play to the anger that's out there without presenting much of an agenda. We shouldn't mention Ron Paul, for example. We'd go to people and say, "I am a concerned citizen, and I'm worried that the country is going in the wrong direction. I don't have faith in our current government to get things going right again. I think we need to go back to the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution and start a new government from the ground up based on the principles of the Founding Fathers." Or something like that.
We'd drop all laws and probably even all the amendments past the 10th. All Supreme Court decisions and precendents would be nullified. All government officials would have to be either replaced or, more likely, their positions would be simply removed.
The national debt of course would be erased. A complete blank slate from which we'd start a new nation, conceived in liberty!
What would happen, realistically, I wonder, if this were to occur? I have a fear that it would throw the economy into complete chaos. A productive chaos, no doubt, but for a few years I bet things would be really crazy.
Anyway, I think this is a great idea, one that we should jump on.
mport1
07-16-2008, 12:53 PM
I like declaring our independence, but I would never declare alliegence to the Constitution. The Constitution should be scrapped and we should just do away with government completely.
Fyretrohl
07-16-2008, 01:30 PM
I like declaring our independence, but I would never declare alliegence to the Constitution. The Constitution should be scrapped and we should just do away with government completely.
That is your choice. I happen to hold the Constitution sacred.
aspiringconstitutionalist
07-16-2008, 02:06 PM
We'd drop all laws and probably even all the amendments past the 10th. All Supreme Court decisions and precendents would be nullified. All government officials would have to be either replaced or, more likely, their positions would be simply removed.
Well, I quite like some of the later amendments that were added to the Constitution. Most particularly, the 13th, 15th, 19th, 22nd, 26th, and 27th.
The national debt of course would be erased. A complete blank slate from which we'd start a new nation, conceived in liberty!
Well, I'm not sure that would be possible. We might be able to get some countries to forgive some of the debt, but we'd have to pay for the things that had been borrowed and bought. Ending the Fed (and thus the fractional reserve banking system), defining the dollar as a weight of gold, and maybe adding a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution would help us get back on the right rack a lot faster though.
What would happen, realistically, I wonder, if this were to occur?
I don't know. We might be laughed off and ignored, or we might have tanks rolling down the streets the next morning. I guess it depends on how serious the government takes it and how serious the People take it.
I have a fear that it would throw the economy into complete chaos. A productive chaos, no doubt, but for a few years I bet things would be really crazy.
Well, if we seceded from the federal government and the Federal Reserve System collapsed, I'd imagine the market would have to correct itself, which would mean a painful recession for a little bit, but after that, we could finally get in a road to sustainable economic growth, sound money, and real price stability.
The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see a map one day that looks like this:
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj59/swohioue/newnorthamerica.png
Everyone can secede from the federal government, and the feds can have the District of Columbia all to themselves. We'll take our Constitution and keep the real America. Where should our new capital be? Lake Jackson, TX anyone? :D
mconder
07-16-2008, 02:48 PM
The Constitution should be scrapped and we should just do away with government completely.
I'm sorry, but the "do away with government completely" part is absolutely moronic. There is always a government and in the absence of one, a tyrant will surely come to power. What you need is THE PEOPLE to be the government, with the highest degree of power residing in the individual. Then the people should authorize others to do the jobs that individuals CAN'T do, due to reasons of economy or practicality.
The Founders really did have the right idea. Their only limitation is that they couldn't see the future (with the possible exception of Jefferson). How could they know the thousands of ways the Constitution would be attacked. Those seeking power have slowly changed our language to render the original intent of the Constitution almost meaningless to everyone from janitors to attorneys. I think we do need to revisit the original intent and reconstruct the constitution in the modern language and detail the limitations.
RideTheDirt
07-16-2008, 05:45 PM
The Constitution should be scrapped and we should just do away with government completely.
I'm sorry, but the "do away with government completely" part is absolutely moronic. There is always a government and in the absence of one, a tyrant will surely come to power. What you need is THE PEOPLE to be the government, with the highest degree of power residing in the individual. Then the people should authorize others to do the jobs that individuals CAN'T do, due to reasons of economy or practicality.
The Founders really did have the right idea. Their only limitation is that they couldn't see the future (with the possible exception of Jefferson). How could they know the thousands of ways the Constitution would be attacked. Those seeking power have slowly changed our language to render the original intent of the Constitution almost meaningless to everyone from janitors to attorneys. I think we do need to revisit the original intent and reconstruct the constitution in the modern language and detail the limitations.
Not to be a dick; but you're last paragraph is very hypocritical.
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