<7/7/08> Who Are You Voting For?

[Kludge]

Updated to track momentum! (Will be done on the 7th of each month henceforth)

Now with... MOAR OPTIONS.... AND PICTURES!

(Alphabetical)

Gene Admondson (Prohibition Party):

http://www.mentalfloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/11gene-bottle.jpg


Charles ("Chuck") Baldwin (Constitution Party):

http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/u_uploads/Baldwin_2411_0.jpg

Bob Barr (Libertarian Party):

http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/files/2008/05/bob-barr-0191.jpg


Cynthia McKinney (Green Party):

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/Cynthia-McKinney.jpg


Ralph Nadar (Independent):

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/images/02/22/art.nader0222.gi.jpg

[Paulitical Correctness]

That disturbing picture of Barr is going to cost him votes... :eek:

[Kludge]

That disturbing picture of Barr is going to cost him votes... :eek:

Awwe.... I liked it. Gene's was my favorite, though.

[Truth Warrior]

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/vote-for-nobody.jpg

[Kludge]

TW, if I'm elected, I'll be 100% honest and truthful. Write me in!

[Truth Warrior]

TW, if I'm elected, I'll be 100% honest and truthful. Write me in!
Yeah, that's what they all SAY. :p You pegged my "BS-o-meter" TOO! :D

[yaz]

Those people not supporting Barr yet need to. If his poll numbers don't increase he won't be in the debates.

[carmaphob]

That disturbing picture of Barr is going to cost him votes... :eek:

It could be worse.
He could have massive pit stainage.

[Truth Warrior]

Those people not supporting Barr yet need to. If his poll numbers don't increase he won't be in the debates.
Regardless, the RepDems would still cook up a way or some lame excuse to EXCLUDE him. :rolleyes:

[Kludge]

blimp

[RideTheDirt]

My election day will look like this: Go to polls. Get ballot. Scan for Ron Paul. Read john McCain and Barrack Obama and vomit on said ballot. Continue to vomit in the privacy sleeve. Hand the poll worker what they handed me; Paper that is covered in vomit inducing bulls**t.

Edit: Probably Barr :/

[georgiaboy]

After weeks of wrestling with this, I'm resigned to vote Barr.

My main rationale is that Barr most closely fits with my libertarian-conservative Republican values, and will send the loudest message to my Republican party about the direction they need to get back to supporting.

As for the rest of my local/state/national choices, with minor exception I'm leaning towards voting out every incumbent, my disgust with the establishment is so solidified.

[BarryDonegan]

the green's haven't had their convention yet, i thought.

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

I've been liking less and less of Bob Barr the more I've learned about him, and I've found Root to be a complete asshole, so the prospects of me voting Libertarian Party have plummeted dramatically in the past month or so.

As a strict secularist, I'm really concerned about Baldwin's religionist tone, but at least I get the feeling he's sincere about abiding by the Constitution and going no further, so voting Constitution Party is looking more and more appealing.

[The_Orlonater]

Aside from the Libertarian party and maybe the CP, I think they're wasting their time. Are they in it for the fun of getting votes?

[Kludge]

the green's haven't had their convention yet, i thought.

They have. Cynthia was pretty much undisputed... Nadar came in second but didn't even campaign.

[Andrew-Austin]

Maybe Barr, I voted for apathy though. He is kind of hard to warm up to lately, what with so many people badgering his old voting record and his VP.

[torchbearer]

FOr those people thinking "write-in" is an intelligent solution:

Writing in Dr. Paul shows ignorance in how our presidential election process works.
We don't vote on presidential candidates, we vote on presidential electors.
An entire slate, representing potential votes for a candidate at the electorial college.
What is polling official going to do with a ron paul "write-in".
either discard it as incomplete or invalid
or give ron paul an electorial college vote for that state (if he somehow won).

In no way, can Ron Paul gain votes as a Presidential candidate by writing in his name for a vote.
You will need a slate of ron paul electors qualified with your state, and then vote on them.

THe ignorance of some people is astounding.
I understand the want and passion to put ROn Paul down as the only person i truly want as president, but your vote has power unless you trash it by not following the rules, or even understanding the rules.

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

I think I'm more astounded by the idiots here who are actually going to vote for King Statism himself, Barack Obama.

[kombayn]

The Write-In vote is still strong. Hmm..... torchbearer, we should all really work together to at least "lobby" our allies into voting for an Independent candidate. I really wish Ron Paul would openly denounce writing in his name this election cycle.

[torchbearer]

I think I'm more astounded by the idiots here who are actually going to vote for King Statism himself, Barack Obama.

I look at that as people who want to hasten the end of the american empire, so we can rebuild again.
That would be the only reason to vote in full blown socialism.
Instead of a slow death, a quick death.

[Kludge]

FOr those people thinking "write-in" is an intelligent solution:

Writing in Dr. Paul shows ignorance in how our presidential election process works.
We don't vote on presidential candidates, we vote on presidential electors.
An entire slate, representing potential votes for a candidate at the electorial college.
What is polling official going to do with a ron paul "write-in".
either discard it as incomplete or invalid
or give ron paul an electorial college vote for that state (if he somehow won).

In no way, can Ron Paul gain votes as a Presidential candidate by writing in his name for a vote.
You will need a slate of ron paul electors qualified with your state, and then vote on them.

THe ignorance of some people is astounding.
I understand the want and passion to put ROn Paul down as the only person i truly want as president, but your vote has power unless you trash it by not following the rules, or even understanding the rules.

+3rd page bump ;)

[The_Orlonater]

Ugh...write-ins...:rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

Join my "Elect the Dead" campaign! :D

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

I look at that as people who want to hasten the end of the american empire, so we can rebuild again.
That would be the only reason to vote in full blown socialism.
Instead of a slow death, a quick death.

It seems like every time America has a massive failure or collapse of some sort, it only becomes another excuse for government to impose more control and regulation and "protection."

Voting Obama in 2008 to make America collapse is possibly the most idiotic idea I've ever heard.

[Andrew-Austin]

Join my "Elect the Dead" campaign! :D

You a fan of Serj? Anyways I say we zombify Andrew Jackson and give him a laser gun for an arm.

[Truth Warrior]

It seems like every time America has a massive failure or collapse of some sort, it only becomes another excuse for government to impose more control and regulation and "protection."

Voting Obama in 2008 to make America collapse is possibly the most idiotic idea I've ever heard.
Let's do it! :D

[torchbearer]

It seems like every time America has a massive failure or collapse of some sort, it only becomes another excuse for government to impose more control and regulation and "protection."

Voting Obama in 2008 to make America collapse is possibly the most idiotic idea I've ever heard.

We are going to eventually crash anyway, and to assume the people will have a vote of confidence in government after the shit hits the fan is a bit illogical.
As long as government can blame something else... it can impose more regulation.
When there is nothing else to blame, when all things have failed... the only institution left to point a finger at will be the government.
French Revolution Style.
So yes- you will get super police state before you will ever see a free society again.
Majority in this country are that stupid. They can't learn until they've paid the price for the lesson.
We few can see consequences of actions, and want to stave it off....
only about 10% of the population is aware... as far as I can tell.

[Kludge]

Let's do it! :D

Familiar with Agorism?

[Truth Warrior]

You a fan of Serj? Anyways I say we zombify Andrew Jackson and give him a laser gun for an arm.
Nope, I mean really DEAD! They get into much less mischief that way. ;)

[Kludge]

FOr those people thinking "write-in" is an intelligent solution:

Writing in Dr. Paul shows ignorance in how our presidential election process works.
We don't vote on presidential candidates, we vote on presidential electors.
An entire slate, representing potential votes for a candidate at the electorial college.
What is polling official going to do with a ron paul "write-in".
either discard it as incomplete or invalid
or give ron paul an electorial college vote for that state (if he somehow won).

In no way, can Ron Paul gain votes as a Presidential candidate by writing in his name for a vote.
You will need a slate of ron paul electors qualified with your state, and then vote on them.

THe ignorance of some people is astounding.
I understand the want and passion to put ROn Paul down as the only person i truly want as president, but your vote has power unless you trash it by not following the rules, or even understanding the rules.

+4th page bump ;)

[Truth Warrior]

Familiar with Agorism?
Familiar somewhat, not a guru on it, by any means. :)

[Truth Warrior]

We are going to eventually crash anyway, and to assume the people will have a vote of confidence in government after the shit hits the fan is a bit illogical.
As long as government can blame something else... it can impose more regulation.
When there is nothing else to blame, when all things have failed... the only institution left to point a finger at will be the government.
French Revolution Style.
So yes- you will get super police state before you will ever see a free society again.
Majority in this country are that stupid. They can't learn until they've paid the price for the lesson.
We few can see consequences of actions, and want to stave it off....
only about 10% of the population is aware... as far as I can tell.
The Great Reckoning! I'm a fan! ;)

[powerofreason]

That disturbing picture of Barr is going to cost him votes... :eek:

He's watching child porn on his computer.

[torchbearer]

The Great Reckoning! I'm a fan! ;)

Is that a book or something? Or just a great way to summarize what I just predicted?

[Kludge]

Familiar somewhat, not a guru on it, by any means. :)

One of the core principles taught with Agorism is practicing counter-economics, which is basically spending as many tax dollars as you can while putting as little you can into the system as means to bring the beast down (not necessarily directing this at you... Just wanted to plug it :p ).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-economics

http://agorism.info/Counter-Economics.pdf

[torchbearer]

One of the core principles taught with Agorism is practicing counter-economics, which is basically spending as many tax dollars as you can while putting as little you can into the system as means to bring the beast down.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-economics

http://agorism.info/Counter-Economics.pdf

Imagine if people, as a group, stopped paying back their loans.

[Kludge]

Imagine if people, as a group, stopped paying back their loans.

Eeek! Torch, you're going into the Communist part of Agorism!

[torchbearer]

Eeek! Torch, you're going into the Communist part of Agorism!

NO, think about it.
Who is the original, originator of all debt in this country?
The FED, aka, the State.

Everyone withdrawing their money from the banks all at the same time would do nothing to this fractional reserve system.... but not paying back the money to the system, as a group... would bring the system to its knees.
Who is the master and who is the slave?

[powerofreason]

The amount of people writing in RP disturbs me. Why not just stay home??

[SeanEdwards]

I think I'm more astounded by the idiots here who are actually going to vote for King Statism himself, Barack Obama.

OBombalama or McSuck will be the next President. That's a simple fact that nobody can seriously dispute. Maybe it's important for you to pump up the Libertarian party to a whopping 1% or whatever for some symbolic purpose. For me, it's more important to send a big FU to McSuck. Humiliating McSuck is the best way, imo, to make the GOP voters understand that they lost because they dissed Paul.

What would happen if McSuck wins? That would mean that the GOP bosses can shit all over the Constitution and the libertarian/conservative portion of their base and STILL win. They'll never learn or change their ways until they get burned. So my overriding priority is making sure McSuck loses, and that means I only have one serious voting option.

[newbitech]

I cannot participate in this poll. my choice is not in the list.

http://election.dos.state.fl.us/cand/CanDetail.asp?account=45544

James (Jimmy) Harlin Carter
Real Food Party of the United States of America
Address
14691 129th Road
Live Oak, FL 32060

Phone: (386)688-2805

[Kludge]

NO, think about it.
Who is the original, originator of all debt in this country?
The FED, aka, the State.

Everyone withdrawing their money from the banks all at the same time would do nothing to this fractional reserve system.... but not paying back the money to the system, as a group... would bring the system to its knees.
Who is the master and who is the slave?

Banks are masters because they own money. Governments are masters because they have a monopoly on force.

Banks would run fine if government were to get out of its affairs, no reason to punish owners of banks for that...

[torchbearer]

The amount of people writing in RP disturbs me. Why not just stay home??

they need to read my previous explaination on why write-ins on presidential ballots is total ignorance of the process. we are suppose to be smarter than the average bear. perhaps, some just haven't really thought it out logically, and are being ruled by emotion right now.
They can't truly be that stupid.

Perhaps I should repost the write-in problem more often.

[Kludge]

I cannot participate in this poll. my choice is not in the list.

http://election.dos.state.fl.us/cand/CanDetail.asp?account=45544

James (Jimmy) Harlin Carter
Real Food Party of the United States of America
Address
14691 129th Road
Live Oak, FL 32060

Phone: (386)688-2805

He is not qualified for ballot access it seems. You'd have to write him in, in which case your choice IS on the poll.

[jmag]

I was thinking Bob Barr until I heard he might be a reptilian. Now I don't know.

[Truth Warrior]

Is that a book or something? Or just a great way to summarize what I just predicted?
Both! ;)

[Truth Warrior]

One of the core principles taught with Agorism is practicing counter-economics, which is basically spending as many tax dollars as you can while putting as little you can into the system as means to bring the beast down (not necessarily directing this at you... Just wanted to plug it :p ).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-economics

http://agorism.info/Counter-Economics.pdf

Hmmm! Interesting idea. Thanks! I'll check it out.

I've often thought that there really ought to be a really easy way to get filthy stinkin' rich, betting against the government.

For example: Something simple like shorting the FRNs with massive pyramided leverage. ;)

[roshie]

Anyone heard of Jackson Kirk Grimes? He's running for the United Fascist Union:

Jack Grimes' "Presidential Priorities" are listed as: 1. "Abolish paper money", 2. Establish a "Universal Price Index" in order to freeze and then reduce the price of commodities and 3. "Create a Confederacy of States" in order to establish a global government based on Corporate Statism.

Anyway, I'm voting for Barr.

[newbitech]

they need to read my previous explaination on why write-ins on presidential ballots is total ignorance of the process. we are suppose to be smarter than the average bear. perhaps, some just haven't really thought it out logically, and are being ruled by emotion right now.
They can't truly be that stupid.

Perhaps I should repost the write-in problem more often.

the problem with writing in Ron Paul is that it won't get counted. many people will argue that it wouldn't be counted anyways so may as well do what is right for the soul.

another problem with writing in Ron Paul, besides what you mentioned about ignorance of the process, is that Ron Paul doesn't think that is very productive. Some may argue that he didn't actually say "don't write me in", but without a clear direction from "the leaders" they will risk rationalizing away all that is the true value of the liberty movement. Thinking and acting for oneself and on ones own behalf.

Then there are people like me who have severe moral dilemma's that will neither allow me to sit home and do nothing nor allow me to continue participating in politics via this movement the way the movement has taught me how to participate (strictly regarding the general election.)

So I too doubt it is stupidity, even in the face of sound ethical, political, moral, and patriotic logic. I hate to say this, but I get the sense that Dr. Paul may have at one point or another tried to put the worms back in the can so to speak.
This is not a knock on the good Dr.'s character. In fact, if you paid attention to his speeches he believes what is happening in this country is wonderful for liberty minded folks. You will also hear him talk about being the reluctant candidate while giving Alex Jones near equal credit to inspiring his campaign as he gave to the one he gives the most credit too.

Just take one hot topic example. I won't mention it cause this is a good thread and deserves to stay front and center. I believe that issue is the most talked about "Ron Paul" issue mainstream or grassroots. It was a "Ron Paul" issue before "Ron Paul" was an "American" issue. I know many intellectual lightweights will seize upon my words here as a controversial attempt to split the ranks. To you I say:rolleyes:

I am sure there are many sound well thought out reasons to do one of those things above. Myself? I prefer the road less traveled. My "instincts" tell me to write in Dr. Paul. My common sense (for whatever THAT's worth) tells me I should vote for someone who has a chance of being counted. My "gut" tells me that McCain is working on a way to steal votes. My sense of humor tells me that Mickey Mouse might make some noise in November. So, who will I vote for it you ask?

Someone who isn't going to win, but won't get any notice either way. Someone like.. me.

[newbitech]

He is not qualified for ballot access it seems. You'd have to write him in, in which case your choice IS on the poll.

source? link? THIS IS HORRIBLE NEWS!!! I am starting a thread!

[muh_roads]

Who will cause hyperinflation to come the fastest? McCain or Obama? Whoever will destroy America faster gets my vote.

got gold?

[Kludge]

source? link? THIS IS HORRIBLE NEWS!!! I am starting a thread!

Well... It didn't say anything after "qualified", so I'm assuming he isn't.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Bob Barr/Wayne A. Root (Libertarian Party)

[SneakyFrenchSpy]

How about options for:

- Non US-citizens (That'd be my pick and a fair number of others on this forum as well)
- People not registered (Inexcusable but it happens)
- Convicted felons who lost their civic rights (Blame the powers-that-be for that one)

I mean, do you really need 3 different choices for the socialists? on RPF???

[tajitj]

Finally a real poll. All the choices.

[torchbearer]

Repost fOr those people thinking "write-in" is an intelligent solution:

Writing in Dr. Paul shows ignorance in how our presidential election process works.
We don't vote on presidential candidates, we vote on presidential electors.
An entire slate, representing potential votes for a candidate at the electorial college.
What is polling official going to do with a ron paul "write-in".
either discard it as incomplete or invalid
or give ron paul an electorial college vote for that state (if he somehow won).

In no way, can Ron Paul gain votes as a Presidential candidate by writing in his name for a vote.
You will need a slate of ron paul electors qualified with your state, and then vote on them.

THe ignorance of some people is astounding.
I understand the want and passion to put ROn Paul down as the only person i truly want as president, but your vote has power unless you trash it by not following the rules, or even understanding the rules.

[LibertyEagle]

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/vote-for-nobody.jpg

Did you vote for Ron Paul in the primary?

If yes, then your picture is not accurate.

If not, why are you here?

[Truth Warrior]

Did you vote for Ron Paul in the primary?

If yes, then your picture is not accurate.

If not, why are you here?
No, Ron wouldn't want me to go against my libertarian principles. ;)

It's accurate.

I like Ron's positions on many issues, where we agree. :)

See, ask once, answer once. That's how it works! :D

Aside from the much more than obvious power trip, why are you here?

[MMolloy]

The Write-In vote is still strong. Hmm..... torchbearer, we should all really work together to at least "lobby" our allies into voting for an Independent candidate. I really wish Ron Paul would openly denounce writing in his name this election cycle.

He has!

[Kludge]

For those people thinking "write-in" is an intelligent solution:

Writing in Dr. Paul shows ignorance in how our presidential election process works.
We don't vote on presidential candidates, we vote on presidential electors.
An entire slate, representing potential votes for a candidate at the electorial college.
What is polling official going to do with a ron paul "write-in".
either discard it as incomplete or invalid
or give ron paul an electorial college vote for that state (if he somehow won).

In no way, can Ron Paul gain votes as a Presidential candidate by writing in his name for a vote.
You will need a slate of ron paul electors qualified with your state, and then vote on them.

THe ignorance of some people is astounding.
I understand the want and passion to put ROn Paul down as the only person i truly want as president, but your vote has power unless you trash it by not following the rules, or even understanding the rules.

+7

[Kludge]

blimp

+1

[JosephTheLibertarian]

No, Ron wouldn't want me to go against my libertarian principles. ;)

It's accurate.

I like Ron's positions on many issues, where we agree. :)

See, ask once, answer once. That's how it works! :D

Aside from the obvious power trip, why are you here?

You have libertarian principles? Going against women's rights is not very libertarian.

[muzzled dogg]

dunno yet

[Kludge]

You have libertarian principles? Going against women's rights is not very libertarian.

Going against human rights is even less libertarian ;)

Lesser of two evils I suppose...

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Going against human rights is even less libertarian ;)

Lesser of two evils I suppose...

I'm a male feminist in real life. yay for matriarchy

Without women's rights, you don't have human rights.

[Knightskye]

Barr!

BTW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p06yOxtiYg

[Kludge]

Yarr for Barr!

www.PiratesforBoBBarr.info

[pendragon]

ask me after the Republican National Convention in September
(September comes before November you know ;))

[Chibioz]

I don't care if writing in Ron Paul is an "ignorant" thing to do. Nobody else on the ticket is worth shit. Members here try to rationalize voting for one wolf in sheep's clothing over another, but I don't want any of them besides Ron Paul. The process is rigged anyway, so fuck it I'm voting Ron Paul no matter how much you guys try to guilt trip other patriots into voting for your candidate of choice.

[Kludge]

Repost fOr those people thinking "write-in" is an intelligent solution:

Writing in Dr. Paul shows ignorance in how our presidential election process works.
We don't vote on presidential candidates, we vote on presidential electors.
An entire slate, representing potential votes for a candidate at the electorial college.
What is polling official going to do with a ron paul "write-in".
either discard it as incomplete or invalid
or give ron paul an electorial college vote for that state (if he somehow won).

In no way, can Ron Paul gain votes as a Presidential candidate by writing in his name for a vote.
You will need a slate of ron paul electors qualified with your state, and then vote on them.

THe ignorance of some people is astounding.
I understand the want and passion to put ROn Paul down as the only person i truly want as president, but your vote has power unless you trash it by not following the rules, or even understanding the rules.

+8

[familydog]

You have libertarian principles? Going against women's rights is not very libertarian.

I'm pretty sure the concept of "women's rights" isn't libertarian either.

[Kludge]

I'm pretty sure the concept of "women's rights" isn't libertarian either.

:D

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I'm pretty sure the concept of "women's rights" isn't libertarian either.

live and let live. sounds like it.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

I don't care if writing in Ron Paul is an "ignorant" thing to do. Nobody else on the ticket is worth shit. Members here try to rationalize voting for one wolf in sheep's clothing over another, but I don't want any of them besides Ron Paul. The process is rigged anyway, so fuck it I'm voting Ron Paul no matter how much you guys try to guilt trip other patriots into voting for your candidate of choice.

My sentiments are similar. However, I will most likely vote for whichever third party makes it into the national, televised, Presidential debates.

[fr33domfightr]

My sentiments are similar. However, I will most likely vote for whichever third party makes it into the national, televised, Presidential debates.


Without reaching a minimum percentage in polls running up to the debates, no third party candidate will be invited. It's kind of a catch-22. A large enough group must support a third party candidate in polls to get into the debates! You snooze, you loose.


FF

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Without reaching a minimum percentage in polls running up to the debates, no third party candidate will be invited. It's kind of a catch-22. A large enough group must support a third party candidate in polls to get into the debates! You snooze, you loose.


FF

Can we not spam or hack these polls?

[Kalifornia]

FOr those people thinking "write-in" is an intelligent solution:

Writing in Dr. Paul shows ignorance in how our presidential election process works.
We don't vote on presidential candidates, we vote on presidential electors.
An entire slate, representing potential votes for a candidate at the electorial college.
What is polling official going to do with a ron paul "write-in".
either discard it as incomplete or invalid
or give ron paul an electorial college vote for that state (if he somehow won).

In no way, can Ron Paul gain votes as a Presidential candidate by writing in his name for a vote.
You will need a slate of ron paul electors qualified with your state, and then vote on them.

THe ignorance of some people is astounding.
I understand the want and passion to put ROn Paul down as the only person i truly want as president, but your vote has power unless you trash it by not following the rules, or even understanding the rules.

what is even more amazing is that you think a vote for a libertarian or green or constitutional is somehow LESS of a wasted vote than writing mickey mouse or wiping feces on the ballot. we are all gonna "waste" our vote unless we vote for mccain or obama. no one else has even an ice cube's chance in hell of winning. hell, since both mccain and obama are wastin O2 I might need some day, voting for them is a wasted vote too.

I think Im just going to stay home and take a giant crap. that would actually be more productive.

[Kludge]

Benefits of voting third party:



10% in 3 nat'l polls gets them into Google's debate.
5% in the general election permits them the ability to receive convention funding or deny it and make a big scene to the media about it.
It allows all people to see how many conservatives and libertarians are left.
Great chance to promote liberty while campaigning on behalf of a libertarian.
>0% chance that the candidate will be POTUS.
Candidates look more credible when they're on the air.

[Kludge]

Can we not spam or hack these polls?

No we can't, no we don't, no we won't.

[pendragon]

Reform Party (Convention isn't until July 20) so? why does that matter - go ahead and put in the one's with the best chance

[Kludge]

so? why does that matter - go ahead and put in the one's with the best chance

Their official website has been down since the chairman decided to move to a free website with nearly no info on it... :p

I have no idea who's even going to be at the convention for nomination.... Keep in mind though that the Reform Party produces big names every year (Mostly because they received convention funding when Perot ran under Reform Party and took over 5%). They've run Perot, Buchanan and Nadar.

Maybe Newt?

[Kalifornia]

Benefits of voting third party:



10% in 3 nat'l polls gets them into Google's debate.
5% in the general election permits them the ability to receive convention funding or deny it and make a big scene to the media about it.
It allows all people to see how many conservatives and libertarians are left.
Great chance to promote liberty while campaigning on behalf of a libertarian.
>0% chance that the candidate will be POTUS.
Candidates look more credible when they're on the air.



None of these things give me one iota of satisfaction or benefit. Writing in RP does give me a very small measure of satisfaction. I dont care if it isnt counted.

Ill probably stay home unless there is another race worth voting for, but if I do go, writing in RP is what Im gonna do, short of one of these microcandidates outperforming Perot. If you 3rd party proponents want to call me ignorant for doing so, you can kiss my ass.

[Kludge]

None of these things give me one iota of satisfaction or benefit. Writing in RP does give me a very small measure of satisfaction. I dont care if it isnt counted.

Ill probably stay home unless there is another race worth voting for, but if I do go, writing in RP is what Im gonna do, short of one of these microcandidates outperforming Perot. If you 3rd party proponents want to call me ignorant for doing so, you can kiss my ass.

I can't decide whether you thought Dr. Paul had a chance or if you are trolling.

[Kalifornia]

I can't decide whether you thought Dr. Paul had a chance or if you are trolling.

Oh there was a point where Ron's chances of getting the Republican nomination were greater than zero. (the various 'wars' were the deal breaker, and split off potential fundamentalist/social conservative support). If he had managed to get the Republican nomination, he would have had a shot at the White House, certainly, as he would have siphoned off alot of the anti-war middle and left.

No one thought Goldwater or Reagan had a chance of winning the Presidency either.

3rd parties in America are a waste of time. Always have been. The few that have been even remotely effective simply put their biggest enemies in power. The way out of this is to take back one of the major parties.

[Kludge]

No one thought Goldwater or Reagan had a chance of winning the Presidency either.

3rd parties are a waste of time. Always have been. The way out of this is to take back one of the major parties.

Let it not be said that we did nothing :p

[Kalifornia]

Let it not be said that we did nothing :p

We didnt do nothing. We busted ass trying to get our guy the nomination. We lost. Now its time to start laying the foundation for '12.

[pendragon]

Oh there was a point where Ron's chances of getting the Republican nomination were greater than zero. (the various 'wars' were the deal breaker, and split off potential fundamentalist/social conservative support). If he had managed to get the Republican nomination, he would have had a shot at the White House, certainly, as he would have siphoned off alot of the anti-war middle and left.

No one thought Goldwater or Reagan had a chance of winning the Presidency either.

3rd parties in America are a waste of time. Always have been. The few that have been even remotely effective simply put their biggest enemies in power. The way out of this is to take back one of the major parties.

+1
(except the part about September spoken of in the past tense)

[Kludge]

We didnt do nothing. We busted ass trying to get our guy the nomination. We lost. Now its time to start laying the foundation for '12.

Eh. Why bother...? We have no chance. Ron was getting only around 6% in nat'l polls and he was nearly perfect.

National debt interest is increasing to the point where we will be soon lose the ability to ever pay it off by conventional means. Especially with the "inevitable two", there's no chance we'll ever recover, sending the global economy into a downward spiral.

I'd use the LP as a platform to educate others but... Why bother? We lost.

[Kalifornia]

Eh. Why bother...? We have no chance. Ron was getting only around 6% in nat'l polls and he was nearly perfect.

National debt interest is increasing to the point where we will be soon lose the ability to ever pay it off by conventional means. Especially with the "inevitable two", there's no chance we'll ever recover, sending the global economy into a downward spiral.

I'd use the LP as a platform to educate others but... Why bother? We lost.


it is always darkest just before dawn. It took 4 long years of the horrible Carter go get people to see the light in 1979-1980. It will happen again. It may take a collapse, as youve indicated, but people will eventually come around again. I just hope that the Nation is still in one piece when they do.

This fight between federalists and antifederalists has been going on for over 200 years. It took the socialists/communists to show up and push the antifederalists out on the wings. The ONLY purpose that the 3rd parties can serve politically is to remind that antifederalism is still a viable political philosophy. It frustrates me to no end that they insist on actually running candidates, instead of pushing their candidates forward in a larger party.

[Truth Warrior]

You have libertarian principles? Going against women's rights is not very libertarian.
I've been singularly underwhelmed by your knowledge of anything. I'll now add women's rights to that growing list.

[Truth Warrior]

it is always darkest just before dawn. It took 4 long years of the horrible Carter go get people to see the light in 1979-1980. It will happen again. It may take a collapse, as youve indicated, but people will eventually come around again. I just hope that the Nation is still in one piece when they do.

This fight between federalists and antifederalists has been going on for over 200 years. It took the socialists/communists to show up and push the antifederalists out on the wings. The ONLY purpose that the 3rd parties can serve politically is to remind that antifederalism is still a viable political philosophy. It frustrates me to no end that they insist on actually running candidates, instead of pushing their candidates forward in a larger party.
Actually I think it's darkest somewhat earlier. Just before dawn is kinda light. :D

[Kalifornia]

Actually I think it darkest somewhat earlier. Just before dawn is kinda light. :D

quibble over semantics will you?!

[hypnagogue]

27% writing in a candidate that won't even be counted... words fail me.

[Truth Warrior]

quibble over semantics will you?!
Actually it's not a semantic quibble. :D

I tend to be a very literal guy. Probably stems mainly from my background training and many long years of IT experience.

"Say what you mean, mean what you say, and do what you say you're gonna do." ;) Those that don't, tend to really frustrate me.

:)

[MMolloy]

I've been singularly underwhelmed by your knowledge of anything. I'll now add women's rights to that growing list.

+1

[nate4ron]

Don't do write-ins! In most states they are not even COUNTED, so it's like you never voted! Even Ron Paul says not to write him in, but to instead vote third-party.

[Kade]

I'm voting for this guy:

http://www.wilson2008.com/

[Kludge]

http://www.wilson2008.com/

I fear that he may be serious...

[Kade]

I fear that he may be serious...

I am.

[Kade]

Bob Barr is on now at WBUR....

http://www.wbur.org/listen/

[Alex Libman]

It's terrible that less than half of us are united behind Barr...

Divided we fail.

[Kade]

It's terrible that less than half of us are united behind Barr...

Divided we fail.

He's talking right now on NPR: http://www.wbur.org/listen/feed/shoutcast.pls

[lisajames96]

I wonder who Dr. Ron Paul would vote for...

[V-rod]

I'm only voting for McCain since Obama's fake popularity is running unchecked at warp speed. When some more dirt on him is dug up on him, then I'll vote for Baldwin if the Constitution Party shows up on Texas ballot.

[Theocrat]

For now, Dr. Baldwin has my vote for President. Not only has he been nominated from a worthy party, but he's been more outspoken and supportive of Congressman Paul than any other Presidential candidate currently running.

[ThePieSwindler]

Anyone heard of Jackson Kirk Grimes? He's running for the United Fascist Union:

Jack Grimes' "Presidential Priorities" are listed as: 1. "Abolish paper money", 2. Establish a "Universal Price Index" in order to freeze and then reduce the price of commodities and 3. "Create a Confederacy of States" in order to establish a global government based on Corporate Statism.

Anyway, I'm voting for Barr.

yeah.. he uses a tripod hosted site for his webpage... im not sure hes serious lol

[torchbearer]

what is even more amazing is that you think a vote for a libertarian or green or constitutional is somehow LESS of a wasted vote than writing mickey mouse or wiping feces on the ballot. we are all gonna "waste" our vote unless we vote for mccain or obama. no one else has even an ice cube's chance in hell of winning. hell, since both mccain and obama are wastin O2 I might need some day, voting for them is a wasted vote too.

I think Im just going to stay home and take a giant crap. that would actually be more productive.

I was talking about people's ignorance of the process.
You can write-in a candidate for mayor or governor, or some other office, because you are actually voting on that person.
In the presidential election, you vote on a slate of electors only.
You write-in a name, you've just voted for that person as a presidential elector not for president.

I'm taking it, my post went completely over your head by your response.
Judging by the above poll 25% of our membership have no understanding of our presidential election process, or they would be putting together a slate of electors with their state to represent Ron Paul.

[Kade]

I was talking about people's ignorance of the process.
You can write-in a candidate for mayor or governor, or some other office, because you are actually voting on that person.
In the presidential election, you vote on a slate of electors only.
You write-in a name, you've just voted for that person as a presidential elector not for president.

I'm taking it, my post went completely over your head by your response.
Judging by the above poll 25% of our membership have no understanding of our presidential election process, or they would be putting together a slate of electors with their state to represent Ron Paul.

For once, Brent is right here. Find out how your state chooses Electors, and work towards getting a Ron Paul elector elected.

[torchbearer]

For once, Brent is right here. Find out how your state chooses Electors, and work towards getting a Ron Paul elector elected.

We could do this in Louisiana for about $300 dollars, but the qualifying dates end on July 11th I think.
We could easily put Ron Paul's name on our ballot as an indie, with a slate of electors, I think we get 7.
This could have been done in every state, though it may have gone against Ron's wishes to not run as an indie.

[Andrew-Austin]

Oh dang, McCain is giving Obama a run for his money here. 5-5.

[AJ Antimony]

Who the hell would write in Paul? 1. He said not to. 2. That's not how it works.

The choices are shit compared to the 18th century, yes, but Barr is the best choice when all things are considered.

[votefreedomfirst]

Voted "write-in Paul" even though I will probably end up casting my ballot for Baldwin. One thing I won't do it vote for a candidate who called Ron Paul "naive and weak" and "part of the blame America first crowd." http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/021315.html

He also referred to McCain/Lieberman 2008 as a "dream ticket" (http://web.archive.org/web/20061205034008/http://millionairerepublican.com/). More like a nightmare. :(

Wayne Allyn Root is a neocon warmonger. The LP violated the ONLY rule for nominating a VP -- DO NO HARM. I'm not willing to throw all of my principles out, and Ron Paul supporters shouldn't be either.

[torchbearer]

Voted "write-in Paul" even though I will probably end up casting my ballot for Baldwin. One thing I won't do it vote for a candidate who called Ron Paul "naive and weak" and "part of the blame America first crowd." http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/021315.html

He also referred to McCain/Lieberman 2008 as a "dream ticket" (http://web.archive.org/web/20061205034008/http://millionairerepublican.com/). More like a nightmare. :(

Wayne Allyn Root is a neocon warmonger. The LP violated the ONLY rule for nominating a VP -- DO NO HARM.

you must have voted before reading the thread.
No one at the LP convention harmed anyone. Though defaming an organization with false accusations about doing harm could be seen as causing harm to that organization. guess the finger is pointed in the wrong direction. heh?

[votefreedomfirst]

you must have voted before reading the thread.

No, see, I don't care if it doesn't count. It's better than voting for someone like Root who is an unapologetic neocon and exemplifies everything we have been fighting against.


No one at the LP convention harmed anyone. Though defaming an organization with false accusations about doing harm could be seen as causing harm to that organization. guess the finger is pointed in the wrong direction. heh?

What? The "harm" that Root does is make the ticket unsupportable for anyone who has any principles whatsoever. If you want to support someone who thinks Ron Paul is "naive and weak", be my guest.

How are my accusations "false"? I linked to Root's own words. Straight from the horses' mouth, so to say. I'm sorry if it's disturbing...I'd be mad too if I got hoodwinked into supporting someone who considers McCain/Lieberman a "dream ticket".

http://i33.tinypic.com/30kracn.jpg

[torchbearer]

No, see, I don't care if it doesn't count. It's better than voting for someone like Root who is an unapologetic neocon and exemplifies everything we have been fighting against.



What? The "harm" that Root does is make the ticket unsupportable for anyone who has any principles whatsoever. If you want to support someone who thinks Ron Paul is "naive and weak", be my guest.

How are my accusations "false"? I linked to Root's own words. Straight from the horses' mouth, so to say. I'm sorry if it's disturbing...I'd be mad too if I got hoodwinked into supporting someone who considers McCain/Lieberman a "dream ticket".

In the words of Yongrel, :rolleyes:

[votefreedomfirst]

In the words of Yongrel, :rolleyes:

For anyone reading, this is the type of "rebuttal" common among Barr supporters. The truth hurts sometimes, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't accept it for what it is.

[constituent]

Those people not supporting Barr yet need to. If his poll numbers don't increase he won't be in the debates.

lol, right.

he will or won't be regardless of his "support."

[constituent]

http://i33.tinypic.com/30kracn.jpg

lol

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NZSBFP3XL._AA240_.jpg

welcome, fellow libertarians!

[torchbearer]

For anyone reading, this is the type of "rebuttal" common among Barr supporters. The truth hurts sometimes, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't accept it for what it is.

I hope many more neocons have an enlightenment too.
We win by making more "ex-neocons".
We should accept in our new brothers!

You are intolerant. And your "perfection" will destroy the good.
If you don't welcome in the former neocons.. you have made enemies of our new members.

Is that good enough for you? I'm frankly getting tired of the higher than anyone else, purist bullshit.
People are imperfect, and I believe in redemption. Deal with it.
"Do no harm" bullshit you speak of... you are about to see where this conversation leads, and how much harm you are about to cause.

[SnappleLlama]

Hmmm....I'm not feeling the love in this thread...

[votefreedomfirst]

I hope many more neocons have an enlightenment too.
We win by making more "ex-neocons".
We should accept in our new brothers!

You are intolerant. And your "perfection" will destroy the good.
If you don't welcome in the former neocons.. you have made enemies of our new members.

Is that good enough for you? I'm frankly getting tired of the higher than anyone else, purist bullshit.
People are imperfect, and I believe in redemption. Deal with it.
"Do no harm" bullshit you speak of... you are about to see where this conversation leads, and how much harm you are about to cause.

Enlightenment? He was bad mouthing Paul within DAYS of the LP convention! How is that "good"? He is not a "reformed neocon". He is a neocon! And you want him within a heart beat of the presidency.

I hope I cause harm to this ticket which has singlehandly destroyed decades of hard work by actual Libertarians. I suppose I'm a "purist" though because I don't believe in endless war and I don't support McCain/Lieberman (or anyone who does).

[torchbearer]

Enlightenment? He was bad mouthing Paul within DAYS of the LP convention! How is that "good"? He is not a "reformed neocon". He is a neocon! And you want him within a heart beat of the presidency.

I hope I cause harm to this ticket which has singlehandly destroyed decades of hard work by actual Libertarians. I suppose I'm a "purist" though because I don't believe in endless war and I don't support McCain/Lieberman (or anyone who does).

YOu don't know who the fuck you are talking to... I've been in the fucking trenches for 12 years now with the LALP fighting this freedom fight. Getting my ass kicked in every election, sacrificing my money and time on the central committee, district rep, getting called a kook, dealing with the purist versus pragmatic infighting, lack of respect, lack of coverage, the whole 9 yards.
I didn't just join up as some new comer and i'm no neophyte in politics.

You go have your debate club of people who think exactly like you somewhere else, the LP is taking in the former neocons.
Get over it.

[Kalifornia]

I was talking about people's ignorance of the process.
You can write-in a candidate for mayor or governor, or some other office, because you are actually voting on that person.
In the presidential election, you vote on a slate of electors only.
You write-in a name, you've just voted for that person as a presidential elector not for president.

I'm taking it, my post went completely over your head by your response.
Judging by the above poll 25% of our membership have no understanding of our presidential election process, or they would be putting together a slate of electors with their state to represent Ron Paul.


Goddamn, but arent you full of yourself.

Let me make this clear for you. We understand how it works. We dont care. We know he isnt going to win, so why bother puting electors together. We know they wont count the votes. We just dont want to vote for your candidates or anyone elses.

[torchbearer]

Goddamn, but arent you full of yourself.

Let me make this clear for you. We understand how it works. We dont care. We know he isnt going to win, so why bother puting electors together. We know they wont count the votes. We just dont want to vote for your candidates or anyone elses.

Then why even bother in the first place. Turn off your computer, go find a dark closet and sit in it.
I've earned my place at the table in Louisiana through sacrifice, and I will wear it as a badge of honor.
My opinion carries the weight of all the struggles we have fought..especially prior to Ron's run for president.

[votefreedomfirst]

YOu don't know who the fuck you are talking to... I've been in the fucking trenches for 12 years now with the LALP fighting this freedom fight. Getting my ass kicked in every election, getting called a kook, dealing with the purist versus pragmatic infighting, lack of respect, lack of coverage, the whole 9 yards.
I didn't just join up as some new comer and i'm no neophyte in politics.

You go have your debate club of people who think exactly like you somewhere else, the LP is taking in the former neocons.
Get over it.

Root is still a neocon. Barr might be too. I mean, he did make multiple campaign contributions to some of the worst neocons in Congress (http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/com_supopp/2007_C00340190)less than a year ago.

I know the LP wants to be taken seriously. It's just unfortunate that it had to sell out all of its principles to make it happen.

[Kalifornia]

Then why even bother in the first place. Turn off your computer, go find a dark closet and sit in it.
I've earned my place at the table in Louisiana through sacrifice, and I will wear it as a badge of honor.
My opinion carries the weight of all the struggles we have fought..especially prior to Ron's run for president.

Like I give a fuck who you are? Ill do what I want, thanks. I didnt ask for your opinion, nor do I need it. Dude, you should really read yourself... sounding a bit like Al Sharpton.

[SnappleLlama]

No one is going to just suddenly vote for Barr because some of his supporters are trying to make everyone else feel guilty for not rallying behind him. Let people make their own decisions. Trying to browbeat us into voting for Barr isn't exactly grounds for a stable movement.

[torchbearer]

Root is still a neocon. Barr might be too. I mean, he did make multiple campaign contributions to some of the worst neocons in Congress (http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/com_supopp/2007_C00340190)less than a year ago.

I know the LP wants to be taken seriously. It's just unfortunate that it had to sell out all of its principles to make it happen.

Is it worth pushing away the rebublican-lite new members because of a VP candidate that will not win?
The whole point is to get the message into the debates..
The whole point is to get enough votes to break the boundaries of the wasted vote syndrome.
The whole point is to show a vote of no confidence in the system. - not voting doesn't accomplish this because the majority already don't vote, but it is just interpreted as apathy or ignorance.
The vote of no confidence will happen when the 3rd parties garner more than 10 or 15% of the vote, and the winner has no mandate because they won by a simple plurality...

There are more things at stake here than if you feel good about voting Root as VP.
For everyone's info, I am a Ruwart supporter. I love Mary, and am purist at heart.
But I haven't thrown away pragmatism.

I know we won't be able to change anything until we are elected. This will require us to get our hands dirty. Whether we like it or not.
May God grant us the strength to not be tempted like the others before us.

[torchbearer]

Like I give a fuck who you are? Ill do what I want, thanks. I didnt ask for your opinion, nor do I need it. Dude, you should really read yourself... sounding a bit like Al Sharpton.

So, when you have a medical problem, you ask your plumber for advice?
It matters who someone is.. because it validates their 'opinion' on their topic of expertise.
I'm watching you stick your hand in a blender.
I tell you stop.
You say, I didn't ask for your opinion.

Ok. Your hand.

[fr33domfightr]

All voters MUST come from somewhere, be it Democrat, Independent, or even Neocon. It would seem converting these groups is all we've got. Where else are the voters to come from?? If you shun them all, how is the movement ever to increase in size, and become politically powerful?? Aren't we all here to accomplish something?!?!


FF

[torchbearer]

No one is going to just suddenly vote for Barr because some of his supporters are trying to make everyone else feel guilty for not rallying behind him. Let people make their own decisions. Trying to browbeat us into voting for Barr isn't exactly grounds for a stable movement.

I don't care who you vote for... but writing in a presidential candidates name on a ballot of electors makes no sense. It looks stupid.

A server ask you what you would like to drink, you reply "forks".

[votefreedomfirst]

You keep talking about the "message". I don't know what message you're referring to. It's certainly not a libertarian message. It's certainly not Dr. Paul's message. It's a watered down Dixiecrat faux-conservative message. It's not something that will advance the overall "freedom movement" in any way, shape, or form.

[torchbearer]

All voters MUST come from somewhere, be it Democrat, Independent, or even Neocon. It would seem converting these groups is all we've got. Where else are the voters to come from?? If you shun them all, how is the movement ever to increase in size, and become politically powerful?? Aren't we all here to accomplish something?!?!


FF

Exactly. Quoted for truth.

[votefreedomfirst]

All voters MUST come from somewhere, be it Democrat, Independent, or even Neocon. It would seem converting these groups is all we've got. Where else are the voters to come from?? If you shun them all, how is the movement ever to increase in size, and become politically powerful?? Aren't we all here to accomplish something?!?!


FF

Yes, neocons voters will vote for neocon candidates. What does that have to do with liberty?

[torchbearer]

You keep talking about the "message". I don't know what message you're referring to. It's certainly not a libertarian message. It's certainly not Dr. Paul's message. It's a watered down Dixiecrat faux-conservative message. It's not something that will advance the overall "freedom movement" in any way, shape, or form.

The "message" is liberty.
Liberty is freedom from government tyranny.
There is no litmus test, but if a person wants individual freedom, and in their heart are seeking that end... that is the message.
Its not words, its ideas.

I thought Ron spoke of this "spread the message".
Its not a speech, its not a platform... its a way of being.

[torchbearer]

Yes, neocons voters will vote for neocon candidates. What does that have to do with liberty?

So, someone who has in the past identified themselves as a neocon, they have heard some of the "message", and they have doubts about the things they have supported in the past.
They come across you, and you say.. go to hell fucking neocon.
Lost another potential member.

Good strategy for 'spreading the message'.

Neocons are not born evil, they decided to have allegiance to a philosophy that sounded good at the time. Peoples views change, we should be here to welcome them, not flip them off.

[newbitech]

We didnt do nothing. We busted ass trying to get our guy the nomination. We lost. Now its time to start laying the foundation for '12.

for president yes, but '10 will be just as important if not more so.

[fr33domfightr]

for president yes, but '10 will be just as important if not more so.

This is true. 2010 can be the opportunity for big changes in congress.


FF

[torchbearer]

This is true. 2010 can be the opportunity for big changes in congress.


FF

Even more important. Each of us taking spots in the Republican machines, especially their central committees of each state and even county positions.
We need our people in all of these spots, and they are usually elected every two years.
This is a very attainable goal, and will insure that when 2012 arrives, our candidate is treated equally and with respect.

[SnappleLlama]

I don't care who you vote for... but writing in a presidential candidates name on a ballot of electors makes no sense. It looks stupid.

A server ask you what you would like to drink, you reply "forks".

If you don't care who I vote for, then why would you care if this supposedly makes me look stupid? That's for me to worry about, not you.

[torchbearer]

If you don't care who I vote for, then why would you care if this supposedly makes me look stupid? That's for me to worry about, not you.

Because by association, us "Ron Paul" supporters will look stupid.
Same thing with the truthers carrying "It was an inside job" at Ron Paul's events. Association.

A bunch of people writing in Ron Paul sends one big message. Ron's supporters don't know jack about presidential elections.
You don't have the constitutional authority to vote for a presidential candidate unless you are an elector.
I thought we were suppose to be people who supported the constitution?

[Kalifornia]

Ok. Your hand.

It is. and Ill tattoo Ron Paul on it and chop if off if I want to.

[Kalifornia]

I don't care who you vote for... but writing in a presidential candidates name on a ballot of electors makes no sense. It looks stupid.

A server ask you what you would like to drink, you reply "forks".

Its not even remotely the same thing. Who gave you the right to decide what looks stupid, anyway?

[SnappleLlama]

Because by association, us "Ron Paul" supporters will look stupid.

You mean "we" Ron Paul supporters?

And hey, if it's not going to be counted, anyway, then how can Ron Paul supporters look stupid? Would I look any smarter if I voted for McCain?

[newbitech]

Even more important. Each of us taking spots in the Republican machines, especially their central committees of each state and even county positions.
We need our people in all of these spots, and they are usually elected every two years.
This is a very attainable goal, and will insure that when 2012 arrives, our candidate is treated equally and with respect.

I am signed up with the republican party and running for a committee spot in my precinct. When I signed the oath, I wrote in "and supports the constitution."

I believe this is the only way to make the revolution happen. From the inside.

Re: who I will vote for in the general election this year. I probably won't make up my mind until that day, but I have a short list that includes:

1.) a lesser evil
2.) the better clone
3.) a soul choice
4.) the herd's choice

[torchbearer]

It is. and Ill tattoo Ron Paul on it and chop if off if I want to.

I actually cared enough to try to persuade you not to... think about that.

[torchbearer]

Its not even remotely the same thing. Who gave you the right to decide what looks stupid, anyway?

It looks stupid not because i decided it, but because by definition, your actions represent someone who is in a stupor.
The reaction doesn't fit the previous action...like someone in a stupor. Thus its stupid by definition.
Have understanding yet?

[torchbearer]

You mean "we" Ron Paul supporters?

And hey, if it's not going to be counted, anyway, then how can Ron Paul supporters look stupid? Would I look any smarter if I voted for McCain?

make it easier:

You don't have the constitutional authority to vote for a presidential candidate unless you are an elector.
I thought we were suppose to be people who supported the constitution?


pithy.

[newbitech]

It looks stupid not because i decided it, but because by definition, your actions represent someone who is in a stupor.
The reaction doesn't fit the previous action...like someone in a stupor. Thus its stupid by definition.
Have understanding yet?

this is also another form of apathy

[torchbearer]

I am signed up with the republican party and running for a committee spot in my precinct. When I signed the oath, I wrote in "and supports the constitution."

I believe this is the only way to make the revolution happen. From the inside.

Re: who I will vote for in the general election this year. I probably won't make up my mind until that day, but I have a short list that includes:

1.) a lesser evil
2.) the better clone
3.) a soul choice
4.) the herd's choice

Every person reading this post needs to at least start attending their local GOP meetings.
And for those who are compelled to do so... hold offices in those organizations.
It is actually more important than winning a congressional seat for the long term campaign for liberty,
We need to control where the GOP vehicle is going. We need to be behind the wheel.

[torchbearer]

this is also another form of apathy

apathy can take many forms. It can come and go... but should never be confused with frustration. Though one usually follows the other.

[SnappleLlama]

make it easier:


pithy.


I see. So...did you answer my question?

[torchbearer]

I see. So...did you answer my question?

I think I did. If you think I didn't... reread my last 7 post and if the answer still isn't present, please restate your question.

[SnappleLlama]

I think I did. If you think I didn't... reread my last 7 post and if the answer still isn't present, please restate your question.

Awwwww...come on, this isn't hard. If I voted for Ron Paul, then this is (according to you) stupid because he's not on the ballot. Now, I asked you if I would look any dumber if I voted for McCain (who IS going to be on the ballot). You gave me some quote and said "pithy."

So....what is your answer? Should I vote for the man I believe in, or should I vote for someone just because they're on the ballot?

'Cause I don't believe in Bob Barr. I believe in Ron Paul. I'm not going to compromise.

[torchbearer]

Awwwww...come on, this isn't hard. If I voted for Ron Paul, then this is (according to you) stupid because he's not on the ballot. Now, I asked you if I would look any dumber if I voted for McCain (who IS going to be on the ballot). You gave me some quote and said "pithy."

So....what is your answer? Should I vote for the man I believe in, or should I vote for someone just because they're on the ballot?

'Cause I don't believe in Bob Barr. I believe in Ron Paul. I'm not going to compromise.


When you vote for McCain on the ballot... you are not voting for McCain, you are voting for a slate of electors who have registered with the state as electors for McCain (though they are not bound to vote for him)
Ron Paul, on the other hand, will have no slate of electors. Thus, if you write in his name, you will be voting for him as an elector in that state, for which, he may not be qualified to do.
If you want to vote for Ron Paul, you vote for a ron paul elector.
To write-in Ron Paul on a presidential ballot when he has no slate of electors is by definition stupid if you think you are actually voting on him for president. You are not.
If you write in the name Joe Smith, Joe Smith will get a vote as a presidential elector, not as a vote for president.
Wanting to vote for Ron Paul is not stupid, but how you go about doing it, can be very stupid.

Have you looked into becoming an elector for president in your state, so you can vote for Ron Paul? Does it really matter that much to you? Or matters just enough to go to a poll and write in a name that at best will be counted as a vote for a single elector?

[Kalifornia]

It looks stupid not because i decided it, but because by definition, your actions represent someone who is in a stupor.
The reaction doesn't fit the previous action...like someone in a stupor. Thus its stupid by definition.
Have understanding yet?

By your definition. I understand fine. I understand you are an enormous, self righteous douche. What you don't seem to understand is that I dont have to adhere to your sense of what is useful. Go herd some cats or something.

[torchbearer]

By your definition. I understand fine. I understand you are an enormous, self righteous douche. What you don't seem to understand is that I dont have to adhere to your sense of what is useful. Go herd some cats or something.

I don't expect you to do anything i suggest. But it is my responsibility, since i have the knowledge, to at least tell you the error in the process you are engaging in...

Now- the post written was in response to what you said, but its content is more for those who will read it.

The only time your actions will become a problem with me is when those actions affect me.
Enjoy your stupor. It matters not to me anymore. What you do with the info is all you.

[SnappleLlama]

When you vote for McCain on the ballot... you are not voting for McCain, you are voting for a slate of electors who have registered with the state as electors for McCain (though they are not bound to vote for him)
Ron Paul, on the other hand, will have no slate of electors. Thus, if you write in his name, you will be voting for him as an elector in that state, for which, he may not be qualified to do.
If you want to vote for Ron Paul, you vote for a ron paul elector.
To write-in Ron Paul on a presidential ballot when he has no slate of electors is by definition stupid if you think you are actually voting on him for president. You are not.
If you write in the name Joe Smith, Joe Smith will get a vote as a presidential elector, not as a vote for president.
Wanting to vote for Ron Paul is not stupid, but how you go about doing it, can be very stupid.

Have you looked into becoming an elector for president in your state, so you can vote for Ron Paul? Does it really matter that much to you? Or matters just enough to go to a poll and write in a name that at best will be counted as a vote for a single elector?

I know how the process works, but with no RP electors, it's simply down to a matter of principle for me. I cannot vote for someone I don't believe in, whether it's Bob Barr, John McCain, or the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man. As such, I cannot vote for their slate of electors. So I'm personally screwed this election, but I'm going to be able to sleep at night knowing that I cast my vote for RP, counted or not.

Unfortunately, I cannot become an elector because I work for the state government (civil service rules prohibit this). Yes, I'm pi$$ed about this. :(

[torchbearer]

I know how the process works, but with no RP electors, it's simply down to a matter of principle for me. I cannot vote for someone I don't believe in, whether it's Bob Barr, John McCain, or the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man. As such, I cannot vote for their slate of electors. So I'm personally screwed this election, but I'm going to be able to sleep at night knowing that I cast my vote for RP, counted or not.

Unfortunately, I cannot become an elector because I work for the state government (civil service rules prohibit this). Yes, I'm pi$$ed about this. :(

How about helping others become electors so you can vote for them?

[LibertyEagle]

All voters MUST come from somewhere, be it Democrat, Independent, or even Neocon. It would seem converting these groups is all we've got. Where else are the voters to come from?? If you shun them all, how is the movement ever to increase in size, and become politically powerful?? Aren't we all here to accomplish something?!?!


FF

+ infinity

[SnappleLlama]

How about helping others become electors so you can vote for them?

Ha, ha...honestly? Being a "civil servant," my hands are tied when it comes to assisting with elections. The most I can probably do is wear a button to show support, but I can't openly canvass or assist with any campaigns. :(

[torchbearer]

Ha, ha...honestly? Being a "civil servant," my hands are tied when it comes to assisting with elections. The most I can probably do is wear a button to show support, but I can't openly canvass or assist with any campaigns. :(

Hmm, can you donate?
In some states, to become an elector requires petitions, and getting those things signed takes money and man power. You could help on the money part i'm sure.
In my state, I could get a Ron Paul slate on the ballot for about $300. Real easy.
But since Ron said he does not wish to run indie, I didn't bother to file a slate.

Ron would have had the best indie/3rd party run in history if he had chosen to stay in all the way.
I don't blame him for doing what he has... it may be the most prudent course, thinking long term.

[IHaveaDream]

Unless something dramatic changes, our best strategy at this point is to line up behind Bob Barr and push his numbers hard. I'm not particularly enthused with Barr or his VP, but we need to leave the two-party syndicate battered and bloody in November. If we unite with the Libertarian party in this effort, we can become a formidable opponent to the political establishment. Granted, it's a marriage of convenience, but that's the nature of politics.

Baldwin, Nader, etc. are fringe candidates. Focus on the major players.

If you're planning to write in Ron Paul, please reconsider. It's a nice gesture, but otherwise an absolute waste. It won't count for anything.

Ron Paul has worked very hard to help us understand what's at stake in this election. We need to demonstrate just how much he accomplished in spite of the efforts to thwart his message. It's time to close ranks.

[SnappleLlama]

Hmm, can you donate?
In some states, to become an elector requires petitions, and getting those things signed takes money and man power. You could help on the money part i'm sure.
In my state, I could get a Ron Paul slate on the ballot for about $300. Real easy.
But since Ron said he does not wish to run indie, I didn't bother to file a slate.

Ron would have had the best indie/3rd party run in history if he had chosen to stay in all the way.
I don't blame him for doing what he has... it may be the most prudent course, thinking long term.

I wish I could collect the 67,000 signatures necessary for an independent Ron Paul option on the PA ballot, but I can't do it myself (because of work). I just hope someone else in PA hears my pleas.... :(

[torchbearer]

Unless something dramatic changes, our best strategy at this point is to line up behind Bob Barr and push his numbers hard. I'm not particularly enthused with Barr or his VP, but we need to leave the two-party syndicate battered and bloody in November. If we unite with the Libertarian party in this effort, we can become a formidable opponent to the political establishment. Granted, it's a marriage of convenience, but that's the nature of politics.

Baldwin, Nader, etc. are fringe candidates. Focus on the major players.

If you're planning to write in Ron Paul, please reconsider. It's a nice gesture, but otherwise an absolute waste. It won't count for anything.

Ron Paul has worked very hard to help us understand what's at stake in this election. We need to demonstrate just how much he accomplished in spite of the efforts to thwart his message. It's time to close ranks.

For freedom!
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/arts/2007/05/03/braveheart460.jpg

[torchbearer]

I wish I could collect the 67,000 signatures necessary for an independent Ron Paul option on the PA ballot, but I can't do it myself (because of work). I just hope someone else in PA hears my pleas.... :(

What happened to your meet-up group?
Those were our quasi-party setup that helped us organize and do all the things we've done over the past 18 months.
These are the things that will be required for us to win on a national scale.
We can do this! Its within our reach. Do we have the will and the energy to do what it takes? How much are we willing to give?
These are all questions we should be asking ourselves, and then once we know for certain where we stand with our place in this revolution.
March forward full force!

[SnappleLlama]

My meetup group consists of roughly 230 people who weren't even excited enough to fill a bus for the march in D.C. this Saturday. However, since they're the only hope I have left, I'll give it a shot.

I really hate being a state worker (LOL)! :P

[newbitech]

Hmm, can you donate?
In some states, to become an elector requires petitions, and getting those things signed takes money and man power. You could help on the money part i'm sure.
In my state, I could get a Ron Paul slate on the ballot for about $300. Real easy.
But since Ron said he does not wish to run indie, I didn't bother to file a slate.

Ron would have had the best indie/3rd party run in history if he had chosen to stay in all the way.
I don't blame him for doing what he has... it may be the most prudent course, thinking long term.

I really like this post for a lot of reasons, particularly the fact that the poster accurately and completely dismantles one of the presidential "choices".

I must say that after reading this post, I believe my awareness of what a "false choice" really is has risen a couple levels.

I would like to point out a few things in this post.


You could help on the money part i'm sure.

There used to be a time in our history economically speaking when this quote showed respect. At least for me, it seems like I wouldn't want someone saying this to me right now. HOWEVER, the poster's outlook is clearly positive and he may be in fundamental agreement with a core principle of this movement. He states the principle in his final ]quote
it may be the most prudent course, thinking long term. I personally believe when that the founders made our constitution the LAW OF THE LAND, they each envisioned a FUTURE TIME IN HISTORY, such as today. They didn't need computer's or their horse and buggy to tell them that history repeats itself more often than people continue endlessly in their day to day mistakes.

The first sentence of this post, says what the money will be used for but doesn't explain how. Clearly the poster believes that after being through months of RonPaul R3VOLution campaigning surely anyone contemplating the above list on THIS forum must know these essentials have to be carried out. My analysis? you have to realize that for some of us(me) this whole idea of taking over the government is completely foreign. We really do want to love our country and help out the best way we can, but we also have lives that must be repaired. It takes work. From everyone. We are competing against families who send their 10 year old children to work and school. Our kids barely get school. We can be everything to dumb asses to fools to jerks to drunks to spoon fed. You get the point.

I like the fact that he has the correct attitude. It's not about the money. Never was. Yes it hurts. But the money issue will not stop this revolution. If Dr. Paul did anything to break down these barriers it was by owning all comers in the FRN debate. These two little sentences
In my state, I could get a Ron Paul slate on the ballot for about $300. Real easy.
But since Ron said he does not wish to run indie, I didn't bother to file a slate. reminds me that most people could substitute $300 for any dollar amount that shows up in our lives besides lottery numbers and maybe you grandchild's cost of education. You could do that and STILL say "real easy" when speaking in terms of what the RON PAUL for PRESIDENT campaign aka "the R3VOLution" has accomplished in 1-2 days. These are rudimentary things that need to be done NOW all over the country. You should not plan on donating to a nation campaign until you have won yours locally. That is why Dr. Paul dropped from the race. This signaled a "movement" by the effort. Here he tells you..


Ron would have had the best indie/3rd party run in history if he had chosen to stay in all the way.

That is why. There is no alternate party. Ron could have selected YOU for veep and still raked in more votes then Parot. Hell he would probably bring Parot in on his VP advisory committee and you could imagine that buzz. Not that it would, could or did happen, but without the Ron Paul campaign machine... sorry but there is no competition even among third parties.

The only thing that makes this such a bitter sweet pill to swallow is that people like Dr. Paul and our friend here the O.P. and all of us really are all in agreement with each other on what it will take to deliver the "change" that the majority in our country are crying out for.


I don't blame him for doing what he has. This is the only thing stopping this post from being a perfect 10. You wouldn't blame him anyways unless you thought he did something wrong. I know what you are saying. But other people who haven't been what you have been through will know what you mean. Of course you don't blame him. However your word choice here is trying to express something that many patriotic supporters of Ron Paul have yet to feel, but will. I tried to talk about it too. But people shot me down pretty hard both in these forums and in private. Other hard working Ron Paul supporters whom you may also not blame.

Nice post torch

[torchbearer]

Wow, thanks!
What field are you in? You have a sociological mind.

[newbitech]

Wow, thanks!
What field are you in? You have a sociological mind.

Right now I am in telecom construction. My trade is information technology. I studied sociology rather than psychology. You do know that pointing out that fact about me says that you have a psychological mind, right?

I think one thing I have learned more than anything from this campaign is how to read. Seriously I have read more in the last 12 months, than in all my years. of high-school and a few semesters of debt driven education.

The bigger the picture gets the more I realize the acute my actions and responsibilities are and must become.l

[torchbearer]

Right now I am in telecom construction. My trade is information technology. I studied sociology rather than psychology. You do know that pointing out that fact about me says that you have a psychological mind, right?

I think one thing I have learned more than anything from this campaign is how to read. Seriously I have read more in the last 12 months, than in all my years. of high-school and a few semesters of debt driven education.

The bigger the picture gets the more I realize the acute my actions and responsibilities are and must become.l

I'm a sociologist. That is what my degree is in.
I view psychology, anthropology, ciminal justice, and political science as specialized fields within sociology.
My training required me to delve into all of those fields.
I enjoyed micro level over macro, though I fully understand macrosociology.

Must read: Power Elite by C. Wright Mills
He was a socialist, but his research was very valid when studying how power is shared among a handful of people in the U.S.

Language is another great area of study under symbolic interactionism that is of great use in politics.
Most people don't know/understand the art of the conversation. And the game... as its called.

[torchbearer]

Right now I am in telecom construction. My trade is information technology. I studied sociology rather than psychology. You do know that pointing out that fact about me says that you have a psychological mind, right?

I think one thing I have learned more than anything from this campaign is how to read. Seriously I have read more in the last 12 months, than in all my years. of high-school and a few semesters of debt driven education.

The bigger the picture gets the more I realize the acute my actions and responsibilities are and must become.l

Question- ever thought about running for a local office?

[MMolloy]

So, someone who has in the past identified themselves as a neocon, they have heard some of the "message", and they have doubts about the things they have supported in the past.
They come across you, and you say.. go to hell fucking neocon.
Lost another potential member.

Good strategy for 'spreading the message'.

Neocons are not born evil, they decided to have allegiance to a philosophy that sounded good at the time. Peoples views change, we should be here to welcome them, not flip them off.

There's one problem with your REPEATED analogy...
I don't have to trust a potential new member but I do have to trust a candidate for President or VP

Sidestep the issue of trust all you want but it's not going away!

And I've been involved in this process for longer than 12 years and will be an Alt Delegate at the RNC

The question we should be asking people is who (besides McCain and Obama) are you going to vote for! i.e. "So are you voting for Barr or Baldwin?"

You might like this article on "How To Avoid Wasting Your Vote"
http://www.prolifepac.org/html/art_wastingvote.html

[torchbearer]

There's one problem with your REPEATED analogy...
I don't have to trust a potential new member but I do have to trust a candidate for President or VP

Sidestep the issue of trust all you want but it's not going away!

And I've been involved in this process for longer than 12 years and will be an Alt Delegate at the RNC

The question we should be asking people is who (besides McCain and Obama) are you going to vote for! i.e. "So are you voting for Barr or Baldwin?"

You might like this article on "How To Avoid Wasting Your Vote"
http://www.prolifepac.org/html/art_wastingvote.html

forget it, see all post above... and beyond this thread.
We should support all third party candidates for the vote of no-confidence.
(i was nominated for national RNC delegate, see Louisiana post about how we were robbed of our complete victory)

[Truth Warrior]

Every Vote is Wasted
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/huebert7.html

[torchbearer]

just an aside- If voting is a waste, then what the fuck is everyone doing in this movement?
We are working on elections, that require voting.

Everyone quick, find a dark closet and hide in it. Nothing you can do in this electoral process will make a difference. ;)

And if "trust" is something you are looking for in a candidate, good luck, Ron Paul is one of a kind.
Any other candidate I will vote for will be in "hope" that they do what they say... always has been that way.

[Truth Warrior]

just an aside- If voting is a waste, then what the fuck is everyone doing in this movement?
We are working on elections, that require voting.

Everyone quick, find a dark closet and hide in it. Nothing you can do in this electoral process will make a difference. ;)

And if "trust" is something you are looking for in a candidate, good luck, Ron Paul is one of a kind.
Any other candidate I will vote for will be in "hope" that they do what they say... always has been that way.
I've often asked myself that EXACT question.

"Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds"? :)

[torchbearer]

I've often asked myself that EXACT question.

"Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds"? :)

Should we be forming militias instead?

1. ballot box.
2. jury box.
3. ammo box.

[familydog]

just an aside- If voting is a waste, then what the fuck is everyone doing in this movement?
We are working on elections, that require voting.

Everyone quick, find a dark closet and hide in it. Nothing you can do in this electoral process will make a difference. ;)

And if "trust" is something you are looking for in a candidate, good luck, Ron Paul is one of a kind.
Any other candidate I will vote for will be in "hope" that they do what they say... always has been that way.

You're right. The best thing to do is to tell people how to vote like several people have done in this thread. That is what the freedom movement is about.

[Truth Warrior]

Should we be forming militias instead?

1. ballot box.
2. jury box.
3. ammo box.

Beats me! :)

Here's some thoughts that I like and agree with, FWIW.

The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
http://users.aol.com/xeqtr1/voluntaryist/vopa.html

[torchbearer]

You're right. The best thing to do is to tell people how to vote like several people have done in this thread. That is what the freedom movement is about.

I think people should make cases for a candidate, not hold a gun to your head and say vote this way or you are a traitor. (note, not once did i tell anyone who to vote for... just how)
But also, information on how the process works, and how some options are not consistent with the constitution is necessary.

I don't think people should diss other 3rd party candidates, that only guarantees one thing - infighting.

In an effort to stay effective, we should strive to get along. Though that won't be 100% of the time. We should strive for it.

You talk about the freedom movement, please give me your thoughts on what that really mean, and what the "message" really is?

I've defined such terms earlier in this thread, it seems only the purist and those who 'worship' at the alter of Paul are the only ones who are demanding perfection for their vote. If that is the case, corruption will always reign.
Perfection is extremely rare, and we have plenty of good candidates. not perfect.

I witness this purist attitude keep the LP small and exclusive since the beginning, I welcome more moderates and am taking a more open approach to coalition building with people who are not satisfied with the status quo, regardless of labels.

[Carole]

FOr those people thinking "write-in" is an intelligent solution:

Writing in Dr. Paul shows ignorance in how our presidential election process works.
We don't vote on presidential candidates, we vote on presidential electors.
An entire slate, representing potential votes for a candidate at the electorial college.
What is polling official going to do with a ron paul "write-in".
either discard it as incomplete or invalid
or give ron paul an electorial college vote for that state (if he somehow won).

In no way, can Ron Paul gain votes as a Presidential candidate by writing in his name for a vote.
You will need a slate of ron paul electors qualified with your state, and then vote on them.

THe ignorance of some people is astounding.
I understand the want and passion to put ROn Paul down as the only person i truly want as president, but your vote has power unless you trash it by not following the rules, or even understanding the rules.
Excuse me. I usually find your remarks quite useful and I have never read any of your remarks that in any way bothered me. Until now.

My vote is not worth a damn if I vote for one of the proferred candidates. So stop that crap.

I do not care what they do with my useless vote. I will vote for Ron Paul regardless of circumstances. I will sleep well at night knowing I did not vote to extend the madness in this country.

One of the two MSM dummies will win anyway. It does not really matter which as they are both so terrible.

Do not suggest that I am ignorant since a vote for any of the candidates other than Ron Paul is an ignorant vote.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” — John Quincy Adams

[torchbearer]

Excuse me. I usually find your remarks quite useful and I have never read any of your remarks that in any way bothered me. Until now.

My vote is not worth a damn if I vote for one of the proferred candidates. So stop that crap.

I do not care what they do with my useless vote. I will vote for Ron Paul regardless of circumstances. I will sleep well at night knowing I did not vote to extend the madness in this country.

One of the two MSM dummies will win anyway. It does not really matter which as they are both so terrible.

Do not suggest that I am ignorant since a vote for any of the candidates other than Ron Paul is an ignorant vote.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” — John Quincy Adams

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said... did that cross your mind?
Did you read the entire thread?
I didn't say voting for Ron Paul is stupid/ignorant, but HOW you vote for him can be very stupid.

Do you agree we should follow the constitution?
The constitution states you have no right to vote for the president unless you are an elector at the electoral college.
You have the right to vote on those electors.
Do you not respect the rule of law?

[torchbearer]

Quoted from post 142, for those people who are too lazy to read all my comments before jumping my case:


You don't have the constitutional authority to vote for a presidential candidate unless you are an elector.
I thought we were suppose to be people who supported the constitution?

I suggest you read them all. Then ask questions before jumping to conclusions.

[georgia_tech_swagger]

torchbearer ftw. I made my open letter plea on how it's reasonable and potentially HIGHLY beneficial to vote for Barr. If you haven't read it please do.

[torchbearer]

torchbearer ftw. I made my open letter plea on how it's reasonable and potentially HIGHLY beneficial to vote for Barr. If you haven't read it please do.

link? I've been working on getting a bootable USB drive with VistaPE to work all evening, so i haven't followed all the threads.

[Carole]

Ditto :D

[familydog]

I think people should make cases for a candidate, not hold a gun to your head and say vote this way or you are a traitor. (note, not once did i tell anyone who to vote for... just how)
But also, information on how the process works, and how some options are not consistent with the constitution is necessary.

I don't think people should diss other 3rd party candidates, that only guarantees one thing - infighting.

In an effort to stay effective, we should strive to get along. Though that won't be 100% of the time. We should strive for it.

You talk about the freedom movement, please give me your thoughts on what that really mean, and what the "message" really is?

I've defined such terms earlier in this thread, it seems only the purist and those who 'worship' at the alter of Paul are the only ones who are demanding perfection for their vote. If that is the case, corruption will always reign.
Perfection is extremely rare, and we have plenty of good candidates. not perfect.

I witness this purist attitude keep the LP small and exclusive since the beginning, I welcome more moderates and am taking a more open approach to coalition building with people who are not satisfied with the status quo, regardless of labels.

Well, I'm not a libertarian purist. I'm not even a libertarian in my political thought. I left the party over a year ago and I ain't looking back. So, ultimately I could care less about what happens to the party.

What I'm talking about is people saying "we have to rally behind..." "your stupid if you don't support..." "only x candidate should be supported..." "your wasting your vote if you don't support x candidate..." I get enough of that crap from mainstream Republicans. Sorry if I'm a little pissed to find it here.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't worship at the alter of Ron Paul. I worship at the alter of liberty. I vote for people who represent liberty. I obviously don't consider the nominee of the Libertarian Party to represent liberty very well, so I won't be voting for him. And I'll be damned if I'm going to have people tell me I'm wasting my vote or my vote won't count or I'm dumb for not voting for him. If people disagree with my choice, fine. That should be respected, but that apprently isn't the case.

[Carole]

OBombalama or McSuck will be the next President. That's a simple fact that nobody can seriously dispute. Maybe it's important for you to pump up the Libertarian party to a whopping 1% or whatever for some symbolic purpose. For me, it's more important to send a big FU to McSuck. Humiliating McSuck is the best way, imo, to make the GOP voters understand that they lost because they dissed Paul.

What would happen if McSuck wins? That would mean that the GOP bosses can shit all over the Constitution and the libertarian/conservative portion of their base and STILL win. They'll never learn or change their ways until they get burned. So my overriding priority is making sure McSuck loses, and that means I only have one serious voting option.
Totally agree :)

[Carole]

I like it. Write in votes for Jackson or Garfield. Maybe even Congressman McFadden. :D

[torchbearer]

Well, I'm not a libertarian purist. I'm not even a libertarian in my political thought. I left the party over a year ago and I ain't looking back. So, ultimately I could care less about what happens to the party.

What I'm talking about is people saying "we have to rally behind..." "your stupid if you don't support..." "only x candidate should be supported..." "your wasting your vote if you don't support x candidate..." I get enough of that crap from mainstream Republicans. Sorry if I'm a little pissed to find it here.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't worship at the alter of Ron Paul. I worship at the alter of liberty. I vote for people who represent liberty. I obviously don't consider the nominee of the Libertarian Party to represent liberty very well, so I won't be voting for him. And I'll be damned if I'm going to have people tell me I'm wasting my vote or my vote won't count or I'm dumb for not voting for him. If people disagree with my choice, fine. That should be respected, but that apprently isn't the case.



I must have missed all of that... I usually see the following scenario play out.
person 1 " i'm supporting Bob Barr"
person 2" "youre stupid, Barr is a neocon, he is our enemy, blah blah blah"

and i see it over and over and over...

then i see a whiplash of Barr supporters returning the favor.

Which leads me to a previous point I made that we should support all third party candidates by at least, not dissing them. For the sake of peace and productivity.

We do have an op. to get someone espousing a freedom message on the national stage, and that is what I see as the most we can hope to get out of 2008.

If barr gets 4% or less. our movement will be dismissed as a flash in the pan. they are already drawing those connections for that purpose.
Now that is not a reason to vote for Barr, but it is something to consider.

[torchbearer]

//

[MMolloy]

just an aside- If voting is a waste, then what the fuck is everyone doing in this movement?
We are working on elections, that require voting.

Everyone quick, find a dark closet and hide in it. Nothing you can do in this electoral process will make a difference. ;)

And if "trust" is something you are looking for in a candidate, good luck, Ron Paul is one of a kind.
Any other candidate I will vote for will be in "hope" that they do what they say... always has been that way.

True... we need to hold all of our elected officials accountable which means we need to pay attention past election day... to see if their votes are constitutional or not. And we need to take over the House of Representatives... That's where the $ is and they are up for election every two years. (Obviously RP thinks his seat in the "People's House" is extremely important)

To help determine if your congressman/woman are voting according to the constitution... there are a few groups you should definitely be checking with on a regular basis:
Gun Owners of America
"The only no-compromise gun lobby in Washington." - Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX)
http://www.gunowners.org/

http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/

Lew Rockwell.com maintains their own RP page: http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/

“The John Birch Society is a great patriotic organization featuring an educational program solidly based on constitutional principles" - Dr. Ron Paul
Ron Paul Really Is "The Champion of the Constitution" http://www.jbs.org/index.php/jbs-news-feed/7-jbs-news-feed/713-ron-paul-really-is-qthe-champion-of-the-constitutionq

And of course RP's Campaign for Liberty: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

This is not an exhaustive list obviously... but a great place to start becoming regularly updated and involved and to find out what your elected officials are doing and even more basic... what they should be doing.

Torch, I'm sure you're already referencing these sites but I wanted to list them here in an effort to focus on the long term.

[torchbearer]

True... we need to hold all of our elected officials accountable which means we need to pay attention past election day... to see if their votes are constitutional or not. And we need to take over the House of Representatives... That's where the $ is and they are up for election every two years. (Obviously RP thinks his seat in the "People's House" is extremely important)

To help determine if your congressman/woman are voting according to the constitution... there are a few groups you should definitely be checking with on a regular basis:
Gun Owners of America
"The only no-compromise gun lobby in Washington." - Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX)
http://www.gunowners.org/

http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/

Lew Rockwell.com maintains their own RP page: http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/

“The John Birch Society is a great patriotic organization featuring an educational program solidly based on constitutional principles" - Dr. Ron Paul
Ron Paul Really Is "The Champion of the Constitution" http://www.jbs.org/index.php/jbs-news-feed/7-jbs-news-feed/713-ron-paul-really-is-qthe-champion-of-the-constitutionq

And of course RP's Campaign for Liberty: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

This is not an exhaustive list obviously... but a great place to start becoming regularly updated and involved and to find out what your elected officials are doing and even more basic... what they should be doing.

Torch, I'm sure you're already referencing these sites but I wanted to list them here in an effort to focus on the long term.

I haven't post those sites, thank you for doing so.
Campaign for Liberty was on our agenda at our last LP central committee meeting.
We are also helping CP candidates. effectively tearing down the walls that keep us separate.

[familydog]

If barr gets 4% or less. our movement will be dismissed as a flash in the pan. they are already drawing those connections for that purpose.
Now that is not a reason to vote for Barr, but it is something to consider.

Apparently I'm in the minority when I think that Barr is not the savior of mankind. The only thing that matters for the movement is CFL. A year from now no one will remember or care about Bob Barr. If we can get candidates like BJ Lawson elected, that will make people take the movement seriously. Not a blip on the radar politician.

[alaric]

Those people not supporting Barr yet need to. If his poll numbers don't increase he won't be in the debates.

I'm not making up my mind until after the GOP convention. Ron Paul may endorse someone if we can't take over the convention. That's when i decide.

[torchbearer]

Apparently I'm in the minority when I think that Barr is not the savior of mankind. The only thing that matters for the movement is CFL. A year from now no one will remember or care about Bob Barr. If we can get candidates like BJ Lawson elected, that will make people take the movement seriously. Not a blip on the radar politician.

I think it is a minority that think Barr is our savior, most people voting for him on the poll aren't die hard barr supporters but simple pragmatist.

Having been apart of many elections, I wouldn't rest the future of this movement on BJ getting elected. Its a long shot, please don't take that as disrespectful towards him. He is the right man for the job.
I just know how the system works, and there is a reason honest people don't rule D.C.

[Carole]

It really does not matter which person you vote for so long as it is not McInSane or Obamallama.

The more votes go to all other candidates, the fewer go to the MSM candidates. I just want to see the percentage of votes for the MSM guys be low. If I see thirty or more percent of the votes going to all other candidates, it will please me.

Imagine if MSM candidate wins the election with only thirty or thirty five percent of the total vote. I would love that. It speaks volumes to me.

It also sends a message that the two party system is broken. That may be the only way to wake up five or ten percent more of the voters to that fact since they keep voting for the lesser of two evils. So idiotic.

:D

[torchbearer]

I'm not making up my mind until after the GOP convention. Ron Paul may endorse someone if we can't take over the convention. That's when i decide.

We should all make plans to be in St. Paul, just in case we have a chance to witness the miracle of our lifetime.

[familydog]

Having been apart of many elections, I wouldn't rest the future of this movement on BJ getting electing. Its a long shot, please don't take that as disrespectful towards him. He is the right man for the job.
I just know how the system works, and there is a reason honest people don't rule D.C.

You're not the only person who can claim political experience and can claim to "know how the system works." Out of the current crop of "Ron Paul Republicans" BJ is looking the best. I wasn't suggesting he will win. I was using him as an example because he actually made it out of the primary. Again, the CFL and its support for aspiring representitives and senators is what matters, not some wishy washy presidential candidate. If people are so concerned about the movement, the CFL is where the attention should be.

[MMolloy]

I'm not making up my mind until after the GOP convention. Ron Paul may endorse someone if we can't take over the convention. That's when i decide.

+1

Two months is a long time in a Presidential Campaign

McInsane might forget how to properly disembark a plane again and break his neck... or one of his faces might rot off.

[torchbearer]

You're not the only person who can claim political experience and can claim to "know how the system works." Out of the current crop of "Ron Paul Republicans" BJ is looking the best. I wasn't suggesting he will win. I was using him as an example because he actually made it out of the primary. Again, the CFL and its support for aspiring representitives and senators is what matters, not some wishy washy presidential candidate. If people are so concerned about the movement, the CFL is where the attention should be.

And I challenge you to one better... instead of focusing on congressional races we can't win yet... which is most like, in the best case scenario 90% of our candidates will not win due to not enough funding or exposure, we should be focusing more on becoming part of our local GOP groups, holding GOP offices locally, and even on the central committee.
Holding these positions will make sure our candidates are treated equally and with respect.
Our candidate will get the endorsements. Our candidates will get the funding... and it all begins by taking the local GOP seats.

But this thread is about who to vote for president in 2008. and we may agree that nothing left on the ballot really furthurs the campaign for liberty, but i do have a small hunch the Bob Barr is actually helping us with reaching out to still brainwashed neocons who were too afraid to listen to Ron, but may feel more comfortable listening to Barr.
Remember the movie, what about bob? Baby steps.

I think all these events are important to varying degrees.
To write off any of them would be a disservice to our campaign for liberty.

[familydog]

And I challenge you to one better... instead of focusing on congressional races we can't win yet... which is most like, in the best case scenario 90% of our candidates will not win due to not enough funding or exposure, we should be focusing more on becoming part of our local GOP groups, holding GOP offices locally, and even on the central committee.
Holding these positions will make sure our candidates are treated equally and with respect.
Our candidate will get the endorsements. Our candidates will get the funding... and it all begins by taking the local GOP seats.

But this thread is about who to vote for president in 2008. and we may agree that nothing left on the ballot really furthurs the campaign for liberty, but i do have a small hunch the Bob Barr is actually helping us with reaching out to still brainwashed neocons who were too afraid to listen to Ron, but may feel more comfortable listening to Barr.
Remember what about bob? Baby steps.

I think all these events are important to varying degrees.
To write off any of them would be a disservice to our campaign for liberty.

I remember being at a Ron Paul rally earlier this year. There were a few Libertarian Party members there trying to get people to help out the party. They were very proud of the fact that they got a Libertarian to be on a borough council and to the county coroner. I think we can all agree on this one fact: The Libertarian Party has gotten to office, but only local offices. For the purposes of changing the discourse in this country, who cares what a local politician has to say? When it comes to national issues like following the Constitution and a non-interventionist foriegn policy, no one. They only listen to people who can actually change the dynamic of the country like a Representitive, Sentor, or even a Governor. While doing local GOP things is good, but if that is our main focus we will end up being just like the Libertarian Party...useless.

In any case, you're right. This thread is about the presidential election. We won't know if Barr helps our cause or not until well after the election. I'm kinda of glad to see you didn't include Baldwin anyhwere when you talked about reaching out to brainwashed neocons. It confirms my suspicion. If you want to draw mainstream Republicans away from the neocon message and to the message of liberty, you might want to reconsider not taking Baldwin seriously. Maybe arrogance is the wrong word, but it's this kind of attitude that will not win over Republicans for the long run.

[torchbearer]

I remember being at a Ron Paul rally earlier this year. There were a few Libertarian Party members there trying to get people to help out the party. They were very proud of the fact that they got a Libertarian to be on a borough council and to the county coroner. I think we can all agree on this one fact: The Libertarian Party has gotten to office, but only local offices. For the purposes of changing the discourse in this country, who cares what a local politician has to say? When it comes to national issues like following the Constitution and a non-interventionist foriegn policy, no one. They only listen to people who can actually change the dynamic of the country like a Representitive, Sentor, or even a Governor. While doing local GOP things is good, but if that is our main focus we will end up being just like the Libertarian Party...useless.

In any case, you're right. This thread is about the presidential election. We won't know if Barr helps our cause or not until well after the election. I'm kinda of glad to see you didn't include Baldwin anyhwere when you talked about reaching out to brainwashed neocons. It confirms my suspicion. If you want to draw mainstream Republicans away from the neocon message and to the message of liberty, you might want to reconsider not taking Baldwin seriously. Maybe arrogance is the wrong word, but it's this kind of attitude that will not win over Republicans for the long run.

I don't know enough about Baldwin to form an opinion, and only have some negatives about him, but do not air those opinions anymore in respect to his supporters here.
I know people who surrounds Barr. That is the only reason I have any trust in Barr. He is surrounded by friends i trust.

[alaric]

+1

Two months is a long time in a Presidential Campaign

McInsane might forget how to properly disembark a plane again and break his neck... or one of his faces might rot off.

one of his faces might fall off. Haven't heard that one before, i like it!:D

[Truth Warrior]

The American people in mass have spoken. The best two options for POTUS in the whole USA are McCain and Obama. Pick one of them. Isn't that how it's designed and supposed to work?

Ya don't gotta like it, ya just gotta do it.

K.I.S.S.!

[georgiaboy]

... but i do have a small hunch the Bob Barr is actually helping us with reaching out to still brainwashed neocons who were too afraid to listen to Ron, but may feel more comfortable listening to Barr.

qft.

Barr's reputation as a conservative Republican will give many, many Republicans who are ashamed of McCain somewhere reasonable to turn.

[DAFTEK]

I probably will bow and vote for mcpain by the time elections come and hate myself for another four years like i have in the past four, i have been a republican all my life but now i'm just a lost soul that hates the democrats more then anything, this election is more then just about presidential, if Obama wins allot of shit will hit the roof starting with democratic judges...

I should have known that it was too good to be true and Ron Paul and future people like him just don't stand a chance against the deep pockets of Israel and big business :(

[torchbearer]

I probably will bow and vote for mcpain by the time elections come and hate myself for another four years like i have in the past four, i have been a republican all my life but now i'm just a lost soul that hates the democrats more then anything, this election is more then just about presidential, if Obama wins allot of shit will hit the roof starting with democratic judges...

I should have known that it was too good to be true and Ron Paul and future people like him just don't stand a chance against the deep pockets of Israel and big business :(

Watch this entire video by G. Edward Griffin: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6015291679758430958&q=g.+edward+griffin+idea+whose+time+has+come&ei=Cj91SML_GIPijALnnIHGCw&hl=en

then pm me, we will need to talk.

[torchbearer]

//

[pepperpete1]

//

Torch, it is my understanding that the electoral college is made up of persons who's name was put on a slate by the party of the nominated candidate. Then whichever candidate receives the most popular votes has his slate chosen to vote for him when the time comes for the electoral college to vote.

How the Electoral College Works
By Phyllis Naegeli

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Under the Electoral College, voters in a presidential election choose electors. Each state has electors equal to the number of Senators (two for each state) and Representatives (based on population) they have in Congress. Because Representatives (and thereby some electors) are allotted by population, this is adjusted every ten years when the government takes a census.

2 Political parties choose electors. The major parties usually choose them at conventions. Sometimes party leaders decide who will perform this job. Once they are chosen, political parties submit the names of the electors to each state's election office. Most citizens can become electors; however, those who work for the Federal Government or are members of Congress cannot be electors


I had hoped that Ron Paul would have filed as a candidate to be written in. Then the vote would have counted in those states that election laws allow write-ins.
I want Mc Cain to know where those votes he did not get went to.

[torchbearer]

Torch, it is my understanding that the electoral college is made up of persons who's name was put on a slate by the party of the nominated candidate. Then whichever candidate receives the most popular votes has his slate chosen to vote for him when the time comes for the electoral college to vote.

How the Electoral College Works
By Phyllis Naegeli

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Under the Electoral College, voters in a presidential election choose electors. Each state has electors equal to the number of Senators (two for each state) and Representatives (based on population) they have in Congress. Because Representatives (and thereby some electors) are allotted by population, this is adjusted every ten years when the government takes a census.

2 Political parties choose electors. The major parties usually choose them at conventions. Sometimes party leaders decide who will perform this job. Once they are chosen, political parties submit the names of the electors to each state's election office. Most citizens can become electors; however, those who work for the Federal Government or are members of Congress cannot be electors


I had hoped that Ron Paul would have filed as a candidate to be written in. Then the vote would have counted in those states that election laws allow write-ins.
I want Mc Cain to know where those votes he did not get went to.

Voting for a slate. Yes.
But if you write in a name that has no slate- it is either an invalid vote because you are not voting directly on a president. you don't have that authority, or you are writing in an elector.
Not sure how the state would decide, but the write-in of Ron Paul on a presidential ballot, when he has no slate of electors will most likely not be counted at all.
The GOP is going to nominate McCain. McCain will have his people as electors.... in every state. If Ron Paul won a state by a miracle because the state allowed a write-in for a non-qualified candidate for president(and a huge number of people come out of no where and write-in his name, even after him not getting many votes in the primary)- The slate of electors would still vote for McCain.

In Louisiana, If I had Ron's permission, I could get him a slate of electors today before 5pm. His name would appear as an indie, and he would have the potential of presidential votes at the college.
He does not need a party to have a slate, but he does need to have the support of the electors chosen by any given party.
Without support of the convention, you get no electors who support you on those slates.

So note- not all electors have to be chosen be "parties", and indies have to file their own slate.
You will not see 2 republicans on the ballot for president because The slate of electors will be hand picked by the ruling majority of the convention.

[Anti Federalist]

Hmmm! Interesting idea. Thanks! I'll check it out.

I've often thought that there really ought to be a really easy way to get filthy stinkin' rich, betting against the government.

For example: Something simple like shorting the FRNs with massive pyramided leverage. ;)

Seems like that is just what is happening to Freddie and Fannie right now.

[Anti Federalist]

After much thought, Barr.

He is polling 10% in New Hampshire (where the fuck were you people last year, huh?:mad: ) right now, and O-bomb-a is leading handily.

What better way to stuff pepper up McLame's ass, and go home with a, relatively, clean conscience.

[mconder]

Will someone put in a vote for Baldwin for me? I changed my mind and I already voted Barr in this poll.

[Truth Warrior]

Seems like that is just what is happening to Freddie and Fannie right now.
I'm thinking individuals. ;)