Coercion and Global Warming

[mediahasyou]

Should government impose coercion even if others do not have the same beliefs?

[Dr.3D]

I don't see an option that says:
Global warming is real, but there is little evidence it is caused by humans, so no coercion should be needed.

[Truth Warrior]

None of the above options.

[Paulitician]

Global warming is real, but there is little evidence it is caused by humans, so no coercion should be needed.
I chose this.

[EgwaTlvdatsi]

Global warming is real, coercion yes...

I'm not a betting man, so I prefer taking whatever steps is necessary for survival...Call me crazy...

[drew1503]

Carbon is a building block of life, if anyone here has ever grown plants indoors or in a greenhouse, what happens when you up the carbon? The plants get HUGE. The earth has always shifted in Carbon levels and have been many many times higher than they are now. We do have many real problems facing the environment like polluting the water, food and air. Plants BREATHE carbon dioxide and release Oxygen. Over 31,000 prominent scientists and just the other week:

NASA internal audit: Press office "mischaracterized" global warming studies

http://science-community.sciam.com/blog-entry/Sciam-Observations/Nasa-Internal-Audit-Press-Office/570003239&

We need to focus on REAL issues.. It snowed in Baghdad for the first time in 100 years, Canada and many other countries are reporting coldest winters in a long time. And what are the answers they have offered, burying trees?? WTF?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080513101652.htm

I have children and want them to have a planet to live on but the planet is fine, it is the people who are messed up - George Carlin RIP

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljNDbKpusT0

Volcanoes and the earth spew much more carbon than we EVER could and the earth is still here, Earth was supposedly born out of a fiery ball.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

There is not enough information; therefore, no coercion should be used

I need to research this further.

[Dr.3D]

Global warming is real, coercion yes...

I'm not a betting man, so I prefer taking whatever steps is necessary for survival...Call me crazy...

Even if those steps cause extream hardship for all of the people on the planet?
You must realise, those 'steps' they want to take are giving control to a central world government. Those 'steps' will make it so costly to live on this planet, only the very rich will be able to afford to.

With the world economy failing as it is, how can those 'steps' be implemented without a total collaps of the world economy?

Since there is little evidence of manmade global warming, there is no need to implements steps that would cause a global economic catastrophy.

Saying I am not going to get out of bed today because I might have an accident and get killed is just as silly. If everybody thought that way, then nobody would ever get out of bed.

There is too much to lose if the environmentalist agenda is carried out and people have to start paying the global central government for the ability to live on this planet. It is just another way for the powers that be to be able to get what they want, and what they want is complete control of every aspect of each and every persons life on Earth.

[Truth Warrior]

even if those steps cause extream hardship for all of the people on the planet?
You must realise, those 'steps' they want to take are giving control to a central world government. Those 'steps' will make it so costly to live on this planet, only the very rich will be able to afford to.

With the world economy failing as it is, how can those 'steps' be implemented without a total collaps of the world economy?

Since there is little evidence of manmade global warming, there is no need to implements steps that would cause a global economic catastrophy.

Saying i am not going to get out of bed today because i might have an accident and get killed is just as silly. If everybody thought that way, then nobody would ever get out of bed.

There is too much to lose if the environmentalist agenda is carried out and people have to start paying the global central government for the ability to live on this planet. It is just another way for the powers that be to be able to get what they want, and what they want is complete control of every aspect of each and every persons life on earth.

qft!

[Kludge]

If someone feels aggression is taking place, they need to sue the alleged polluter individually.

[Paulitician]

Volcanoes and the earth spew much more carbon than we EVER could and the earth is still here, Earth was supposedly born out of a fiery ball.

The volcano thing is only half true. Yes, they do emit more carbon, but not "more than we ever could" especially since they're too infrequent. Also, isn't it true that big volcanic eruptions actually cause temporary global coolings?


I definitely believe global warming is happening, but I'm skeptical about humans being the main driver of "climate change" (climate always changes anyway). Last century, global tempuratures increased by .7 degrees Celsius. That's really not that much, and how much of that do we know was caused by humans? There is no way of knowing. It's just not empirically testable if you want to "keep all other things equal" because there is so much other crap that goes on in the ecosystem. I'm even more skeptical about global warming alarism. The scientific findings that climate scientist use are based on modeling. And I just don't think models are that accurate. Because they're based on inputs and extrapolation, but what if they didn't include significant inputs (for either negative or positive feedback) that influence global temperatures? Well then their models are wrong. You know, some of the current economic predictions were based on models too--those models showed nothing could go wrong, but they were completely off the mark. Global warming modeling is showing temperatures are definitely going to increase, however, they could be completely off the mark too. I just don't trust modeling. I thought hard, rigorous natural science was supposed to be based on empiricism. Also, some of the data scientists are using have some quirks in it. I've heard of scientists going back and re-adjusting their data entirely. Can climate science be completely accepted, because obviously the "science is settled" or are we still in the infancy of this science? Also, if you look at climate change, it seems to follow more comsic activity than anything, a large part of which has to do with the sun. For instance, both Earths and Mars ice caps are melting (both planet's axes are said to be wobbling as well as either a result or cause of global warming). (And that could be another problem of climate science that is akin to economic science, confusing correlation with causation, and thinking that effects are causes, causes are effects, and other mininterpretations of data). Obviously this is a sign that this global warming is not merely a cause of human activity. Human activity may not even be a huge factor.

[pcosmar]

There is no Global Warming. There is evidence of global cooling, which is why all these idiots have changed their propaganda to "Climate Change".
I think that everyone that is worried about it needs to just STOP BREATHING.
The Carbon Dioxide emissions would be lessened. Not to mention the noise pollution.

[Paulitician]

Well, there has been net global warming in the last century. Current scientific findings say there will be global cooling for about a decade or so. Which reminds, I forgot to say in my rant that global warming is only natural after coming out of an ice age. Global temperatures will keep climbing until we head into another ice age, in which temperatures will start to fall again. And there is really nothing we can do about that except adapt. We can't reverse these natural forces. Maybe we'll delay them or effect the extent of global temperature change, but these natural cycles are going to happen regardless. Nature by itself will kill us before human activity will make nature kill us.

[EgwaTlvdatsi]

Even if those steps cause extream hardship for all of the people on the planet?
You must realise, those 'steps' they want to take are giving control to a central world government. Those 'steps' will make it so costly to live on this planet, only the very rich will be able to afford to.

With the world economy failing as it is, how can those 'steps' be implemented without a total collaps of the world economy?

Since there is little evidence of manmade global warming, there is no need to implements steps that would cause a global economic catastrophy.

Saying I am not going to get out of bed today because I might have an accident and get killed is just as silly. If everybody thought that way, then nobody would ever get out of bed.

There is too much to lose if the environmentalist agenda is carried out and people have to start paying the global central government for the ability to live on this planet. It is just another way for the powers that be to be able to get what they want, and what they want is complete control of every aspect of each and every persons life on Earth.


So what you're saying is that Human beings are incapable of adapting?

Also, are you saying then that a little piece of cloth/paper and metal (money) is more important than life?

I'm still not a betting man, I would rather not bet my childrens childrens childrens lives on anything that might not be a good idea...

I am not certain about global warming, and I have no idea if it is real or not...

I wonder if the people who lived beneeth Pompeii thought, "Hey, it's just a mountain".

Russian Roulette is Russian roulette...Lets just hope the 'loaded' chamber isn't cocked...

[werdd]

Nope. even if global warming was real.

[hypnagogue]

If someone feels aggression is taking place, they need to sue the alleged polluter individually. I, Hypnagogue, do bring suit alleging damages against the populations of all industrialized nations.... :rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

Terrestrial Atmosphere

Surface pressure: 1014 mb
Surface density: 1.217 kg/m3
Scale height: 8.5 km
Total mass of atmosphere: 5.1 x 1018 kg
Total mass of hydrosphere: 1.4 x 1021 kg
Average temperature: 288 K (15 C)
Diurnal temperature range: 283 K to 293 K (10 to 20 C)
Wind speeds: 0 to 100 m/s
Mean molecular weight: 28.97 g/mole

Atmospheric composition (by volume, dry air):

Major : 78.084% Nitrogen (N2), 20.946% Oxygen (O2),

Minor (ppm): Argon (Ar) - 9340; Carbon Dioxide (CO2) - 380 [ :rolleyes: ]
Neon (Ne) - 18.18; Helium (He) - 5.24; CH4 - 1.7
Krypton (Kr) - 1.14; Hydrogen (H2) - 0.55

Water is highly variable, typically makes up about 1% [ ~10,000 ppm ]

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/facts.../earthfact.html

Anthropogenic Global Warming :p :rolleyes:

Keep a watch on that Argon! :eek:

;) :D

[Dr.3D]

So what you're saying is that Human beings are incapable of adapting?

Also, are you saying then that a little piece of cloth/paper and metal (money) is more important than life?

I'm still not a betting man, I would rather not bet my childrens childrens childrens lives on anything that might not be a good idea...

I am not certain about global warming, and I have no idea if it is real or not...

I wonder if the people who lived beneeth Pompeii thought, "Hey, it's just a mountain".

Russian Roulette is Russian roulette...Lets just hope the 'loaded' chamber isn't cocked...

What I am saying is, human beings are capable of adapting. If there really is a problem, then they will adapt to it, rather than succumb to a one world governing body.

Life is not about just being alive. I would rather not live, than to live in a world where I am told or dictated every aspect of what I can and can not do on a daily basis. It would be better for my children to not survive than to have them live as servants to a one world dictatorship.

I can not understand how you feel living as a slave is a good idea just because you are not sure about the alternatives.

The people of Pompeii didn't think about the mountain so much as living their lives. There was little they could do about what the mountain did anyway. They had they no way of knowing that mountain was going to dump tons of pummice on their town. Would it have helped them to raise taxes just in case the mountain was going to destroy their city?

If the chamber of the pistol being used in Russian Roulette actually has a round in it, then when the trigger is pulled, the person pulling the trigger will never know what hit him anyway.

Ever hear the quote... "give me liberty or give me death."? I for one would rather be dead than to live in a world where I was dictated on a daily basis what I must do to remain alive. Life as a slave is not life at all, it is merily an existance.

Don't tell me it is better to be a slave just in case global warming is being caused by humans. What if it isn't caused by humans? That would mean you gave up your liberties for something that didn't exist in the first place.

I for one would rather wait and get the facts straight about such an important decision. It is just stupid to jump in and give up your liberties just in case they may be right about it. What about if they were wrong? Do you think they are going to give you back those liberties then? Fat chance! They would tell everybody they were right and you giving up your liberties was the reason it didn't happen.

Liberties once lost are far harder to restore than liberties never given up in the first place.

[SeanEdwards]

Environmental degradation caused by humans and our industry is very real and has happened numerous times throughout history. Whether that degradation contributes to climate change may or may not be true. The determination of what society's laws should be regarding such issues is a matter for politics and the people's will, based on their perceptions of the risks and costs.

But ultimately, my opinion is there must and there will be some kind of societal laws regarding such matters, and that implies coercive force of government to enforce such laws.

I can not get on board with the hardcore libertarian/anarchist view that my neighbors are free to build a substandard nuclear reactor in their garage. So the same opinion applies across state borders. A lot of people lived downwind from Chernobyl that didn't get a say in how that reactor was built or operated. I think some degree of coercive state power is appropriate for such issues.

[Truth Warrior]

TPTB NWO UN IPCC are NOT the "good guys". ;)

AGW is just another bogus "power and control" SCAM, and fear mongering. :p

[Truth Warrior]

The Church of Global Warming
http://churchofglobalwarming.com/

[Roxi]

cows are a 50,000 times bigger culprit in the contribution to global warming than humans

[Truth Warrior]

cows are a 50,000 times bigger culprit in the contribution to global warming than humans
I'm eating my share PLUS. :D I love vegetarians, they just leave more meat for me!

[HenryKnoxFineBooks]

The people of Pompeii didn't think about the mountain so much as living their lives. There was little they could do about what the mountain did anyway. They had they no way of knowing that mountain was going to dump tons of pummice on their town. Would it have helped them to raise taxes just in case the mountain was going to destroy their city?

.

The Pompeiian equivalent of Global warming alarmist would be to sacrifice young virgins to the volcano. After all, "something" must be done, and it is working for the Hawaiians....

[EgwaTlvdatsi]

What I am saying is, human beings are capable of adapting. If there really is a problem, then they will adapt to it, rather than succumb to a one world governing body.


If there really is a problem? So then because I can't see termites, then they mustn't be a problem. Because there is no telling that someone is going to be killed by a speeding motorist, speedlimits are not necessary.



Life is not about just being alive. I would rather not live, than to live in a world where I am told or dictated every aspect of what I can and can not do on a daily basis. It would be better for my children to not survive than to have them live as servants to a one world dictatorship.

I can not understand how you feel living as a slave is a good idea just because you are not sure about the alternatives.


Slavery? Say what? We are told what speeds to drive, we are told to wear seatbelts to save our lives, we are told to not breathe in gasoline. How is being told not to use products or materials which would be poor for the environment be outside of what we are already told to do?



Ever hear the quote... "give me liberty or give me death."? I for one would rather be dead than to live in a world where I was dictated on a daily basis what I must do to remain alive. Life as a slave is not life at all, it is merily an existance.


Eligwu gayotli tsalagi tsiwonisgi, vsehnv doyu galiheliga si gvhna iyusdi...
I may only be able to speak a little Cherokee, But I am glad I am still alive.



Don't tell me it is better to be a slave just in case global warming is being caused by humans. What if it isn't caused by humans? That would mean you gave up your liberties for something that didn't exist in the first place.


If you're a betting man, go right ahead. After all, people who think like this out number those who think like me. That's alright, I'm fine with the way things are, and yes, I would like to make a difference. And if you are right, then YEEE HAW.
In my beliefs extinction is ok. So if you are wrong, eh, it's of little consequence. It would be interesting to see what the next evolution will bring about. However, it just makes my skin crawl to think about some wierd being digging up where I'm buried and wonder if I was a lizard or not...LOL



I for one would rather wait and get the facts straight about such an important decision. It is just stupid to jump in and give up your liberties just in case they may be right about it. What about if they were wrong? Do you think they are going to give you back those liberties then? Fat chance! They would tell everybody they were right and you giving up your liberties was the reason it didn't happen.

Liberties once lost are far harder to restore than liberties never given up in the first place.

Hmm...Still don't see how I would loose any of my liberties that wouldn't be about the same as the liberties I already don't have just because there is a chance I might hit somone on the road, or because I might make meth, or because I might make a bomb, etc, etc, etc...

Here in southwestern Kansas, when a storm comes and the sirens go off. You can either wait until the comercials are over and the weatherman tells you there's going to be a tornado, or wait until you can see it, or you can run for shelter...

[Dr.3D]

EgwaTlvdatsi, I'm done talking with you as I can see you have been brainwashed by the system. If you can't understand global government, then there is no hope for you anyway.

[EgwaTlvdatsi]

EgwaTlvdatsi, I'm done talking with you as I can see you have been brainwashed by the system. If you can't understand global government, then there is no hope for you anyway.



Whew...Harsh words...Brain washed? No! Ill informed? Yes! But eh, no hard feelings, I'm not an angry person, so eh...Have a happy, dude...:D

[Dr.3D]

Whew...Harsh words...Brain washed? No! Ill informed? Yes! But eh, no hard feelings, I'm not an angry person, so eh...Have a happy, dude...:D

Dude? Sounds like kid talk.

I'm not talking about using energy saving appliances here, I am talking about U.N. mandated taxes for using anything that produces carbon dioxide.

All of the little you can do this to save energy and you can do that to save energy is fine with me.

[BuddyRey]

I think global warming is real and caused by humans, but the eco-friendly death cult goes way overboard in promoting population control, carbon taxes, and many other evil machinations. I support letting the market address the crisis, which it no doubt would if left to its own devices. The most environmentally sane thing we could do is re-legalize God's creation and decriminalize hemp and all its derivatives!

[Truth Warrior]

OK, were at 380 ppm for CO2 now, what is the right ppm number that you would prefer and how much are you willing to pay to get there and by when? :D

[shaunish]

Okay say global warming is real, why is everyone so certain it will adversely affect the human race? Yeah, sea levels will rise - weather patterns may change, people in low lying areas will have to move/adjust. But who knows this could be GOOD in the long run.

I had somebody at work trying to tell me that we will go extinct if the temperature rises more than 5 degrees! its ridiculous humans are the most adaptable mammal on the planet... i guess people like to have something to be scared of.

[Jason T]

Global warming is real, but the runaway greenhouse effect is an unproven theory. Without the latter being true, global warming is hardly anything to worry about.

As far as politics goes - spending trillions of dollars to delay the inevitable by a fraction of time is foolish. Even if we all start living like cavemen again, we'll never re-balance the carbon cycle - we removed too much plant life to accommodate 6+ billion people.

But considering only a fraction of the public even cares to even learn about the problem, our cries will fall upon deaf ears.

[Truth Warrior]

What is the most potent and prevalent Greenhouse gas on Earth?
Answer: Water vapor! :D

How ya gonna blame that on humanity AND tax it? How will we know when AND if it's "fixed"?

Kinda like the "War on Terror", isn't it? How will you KNOW when you've won?

[sophocles07]

I love vegetarians, they just leave more meat for me!

http://www.taconichills.k12.ny.us/webquests/noncomdisease/Heart%20Diseasepic.gif

http://medicalimages.allrefer.com/large/obesity-and-health.jpg

[Paulitician]

I just don't think models are that accurate. Because they're based on inputs and extrapolation, but what if they didn't include significant inputs (for either negative or positive feedback) that influence global temperatures? Well then their models are wrong.
Oh boy, do I love being right. How many times have climate scientists been surprised by natural phenomon that influence global temperature and the global ecosystem which they didn't think to include in their models? Well, following global warming headlines and studies so far this year, it's probably around half a dozen (let's extrapolate that 100 years!). And yet we're expected to believe that this century global temperatures will rise 2 degrees C, causing planetary destruction, because current models say so and we have to issue sweeping legislation? The science is settled, right? No ands, ifs or buts about it. Give me a break. I saw this on digg today, but I read about the same story a couple days ago:

Ocean destroys ozone and raises doubt about climate modeling (http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/06/ocean-sucking-u.html)

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Even if global warming is real, we should just let the free market deal with it.