The Pledge of Allegiance - Socialist Propaganda? [Archive]

CountryboyRonPaul

06-23-2008, 06:43 PM

This is just a bit of easily found but largely ignored information.

"The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian Socialist, and the cousin of Socialist Utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Bellamy's original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America, conceived by James B. Upham.

Bellamy's original Pledge read, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. America"

The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be stated in 15 seconds. He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity but decided they were too controversial since many people opposed equal rights for women and blacks. Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue and that the United States supports the flag."

quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

I hear often times on the Christian Right justification for various faith-based platform positions on the basis of the words "One Nation Under God", and the assumption that the laws of the United States have therefore been based in Christianity since the beginning of the nation.

However, the words under god were NOT in the original Pledge of Allegiance, they were later added in 1954. Bellamy's grand-daughter later stated that he would have resented the changes made to his Pledge.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

The goal seems to be similair, however.

The Christian Right of today seems to use these words to try to silence opposition for religiously motivated laws.

While the Far Left Statists of the past used it to try and encourage obediance to the state above all else.

In my opinion obediance to the state can be a virtue, but is very likely to result in abuse of the power granted to them by the people, from those in government. Therefore unquestioning, absolute obediance to the state is inherently dangerous to Liberty, and therefore can be argued inherently "Un-American"

Just thought I'd share that

James Madison

06-23-2008, 07:47 PM

I hear often times on the Christian Right justification for various faith-based platform positions on the basis of the words "One Nation Under God", and the assumption that the laws of the United States have therefore been based in Christianity since the beginning of the nation.

However, the words under god were NOT in the original Pledge of Allegiance, they were later added in 1954. Bellamy's grand-daughter later stated that he would have resented the changes made to his Pledge.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

The goal seems to be similair, however.

The Christian Right of today seems to use these words to try to silence opposition for religiously motivated laws.

'In God We Trust' was added to the Pledge and all Federal Reserve Notes in 1954 to show the Soviets that we were a God-fearing nation. I guess to imply God was on our side...so much for that.

JS4Pat

06-23-2008, 07:56 PM

This has bothered me for a long time. Why are we pledging allegiance to a "flag" rather than pledging allegiance to the ideals and principles that the flag stands for? I am always very uncomfortable in settings where we do this.

Someone from our local RLC group proposed starting our meetings with the following that we named "The Patriot Pledge":

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic that it creates:
one nation of sovereign states,
under God, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Now there is a pledge that makes me want to stand at attention, cover my heart with my hand and recite with pride!

Alex Libman

06-23-2008, 07:57 PM

I thought God was on Hitler's side. 20,000,000 German belt buckles can't be wrong! ;)

---

Baldwin reminds me of Hitler before he came to power, and this forum needs to get rid of the theocratic nut-jobs by ostracizing them before they completely ruin Ron Paul's legacy! Sure, he's saying all the right things now, but imagine what his Prohibition, errr, I mean """Constitution""" party would do if they came to power on state level! They won't just stop at outlawing gambling and pornography as their platform is calling for, no sir! We're talking about Christian Taliban here! :eek:

pinkmandy

06-23-2008, 07:57 PM

Public schools are socialist training grounds. It was the stated purpose by those who were so kind as to push them on Americans, modeled after the Prussian system. The Pledge is a drop in the bucket...

The Pledge itself doesn't bother me personally. It would be better if kids actually learned what "the Republic" and "liberty" actually mean, though.

Cowlesy

06-23-2008, 07:57 PM

I am friends with Peter Bellamy, Francis' grandson, and no...there were never any nefarious underpinnings to the pledge of allegiance. The Bellamy's love this country as much as I do.

Kludge

06-23-2008, 07:59 PM

**Nationalist propaganda.

As is the flag, seal of the president and useless monuments which litter our nation.

familydog

06-23-2008, 08:26 PM

I pledged allegiance to the flag every day in school. Tis why I'm trying to save it :p

Alex Libman

06-23-2008, 08:39 PM

I grew up in 1980s Soviet Union (born 1981, came to USA 1992), and to me as a kid New Jersey felt a whole lot more socialist in comparison... It amazed me how strict the schools were, with students treated like cattle...

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[Off-topic section removed by Moderator]

youngbuck

06-23-2008, 08:39 PM

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic that it creates:
one nation of sovereign states,
under God, with Liberty and Justice for all.

That's pretty good! That's what the pledge of allegiance really should be.

James Madison

06-23-2008, 08:59 PM

I thought God was on Hitler's side. 20,000,000 German belt buckles can't be wrong! ;)

Ever heard the Bob Dylan song "With God on Our Side"? If He's really on our side He'll stop the next war!

Anti Federalist

06-23-2008, 10:20 PM

This was the form of salute during the pledge c. 1920-1940
http://www.crotonblog.com/archives/upload/2007/05/american-school-children-bellamy-salute.jpg
http://rexcurry.net/i-pledge-allegiance-to-the-flag2.jpg
http://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%204.jpg

Draw your own conclusions.

qaxn

06-23-2008, 10:25 PM

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a SOCIALIST and saluted with the NAZI SALUTE but draw your own conclusions (hint: your conclusions should be that the Pledge of Allegiance is a SOCIALIST NAZI PROPAGANDA SOCIALISM GOEBBELS RON PAUL 2008 SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS AYN RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND).

Kludge

06-23-2008, 10:28 PM

Anti Federalist

06-23-2008, 10:33 PM

Marxist-Leninist-Maoist for Ron Paul!
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/Orange722/FACEPALM.jpg

OptionsTrader

06-23-2008, 10:37 PM

Ever heard the Bob Dylan song "With God on Our Side"? If He's really on our side He'll stop the next war!

The next war...

Where was He prior and during the previous thousands of wars and other deadly conflicts?

qaxn

06-23-2008, 10:39 PM

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/Orange722/FACEPALM.jpg
Trolling purposes, and it has no bearing on the scientifically proven objective fact that the views expressed in this thread are moronic. For reals, did you guys just get out of a public high school history class? Saying a document conveys an idea by virtue of association with its author is simply incorrect, things don't work that way.

Anti Federalist

06-23-2008, 10:52 PM

Trolling purposes, and it has no bearing on the scientifically proven objective fact that the views expressed in this thread are moronic. For reals, did you guys just get out of a public high school history class? Saying a document conveys an idea by virtue of association with its author is simply incorrect, things don't work that way.

I'm saying one thing in this thread:

In US public schools, from roughly around 1920 to roughly 1940, the flag was saluted while saying the pledge in a style that has now become commonly recognized as the German NAZI Party salute.

qaxn

06-23-2008, 10:58 PM

I'm saying one thing in this thread:

In US public schools, from roughly around 1920 to roughly 1940, the flag was saluted while saying the pledge in a style that has now become commonly recognized as the German NAZI Party salute.

serious post so please read carefully tia: when you present a disconnected provocative idea and then say "draw your own conclusions" or "think about it yourself," you're being dishonest. you're inviting your audience to make the connection even when it isn't true or meaningful, without providing any sense of context or explanation as to why this connection should be made.

James Madison

06-23-2008, 11:38 PM

The next war...

Where was He prior and during the previous thousands of wars and other deadly conflicts?

That's the last line of the song. Not my personal opinion. Just an fyi.

qaxn

06-23-2008, 11:47 PM

Anti Federalist

06-24-2008, 12:13 AM

serious post so please read carefully tia: when you present a disconnected provocative idea and then say "draw your own conclusions" or "think about it yourself," you're being dishonest. you're inviting your audience to make the connection even when it isn't true or meaningful, without providing any sense of context or explanation as to why this connection should be made.

I'm sorry calling attention to authoritarian ideas, gestures and symbols that once had a fairly strong foothold in this country makes you uncomfortable.

I'm even more sorry that your professed ideologies have been responsible for millions of dead all around the world. The NAZIs were pikers compared to your guys when it came to genocide by government.

qaxn

06-24-2008, 01:49 AM

I'm sorry calling attention to authoritarian ideas, gestures and symbols that once had a fairly strong foothold in this country makes you uncomfortable.
That doesn't make me uncomfortable. Lies and idiocy make me uncomfortable. What you are saying is that a gesture which predated German Fascism which resembles a gesture which the Nazis later adopted is fascist by association, and that the pledge of allegiance is fascist by association with the thing which is fascist by association. That's bullshit.
I don't have a problem with arguments against having oaths of loyalty in schools. There are some very good ones which could be made. But you aren't making those arguments, you're tying together unrelated events and ideas into a web of insanity which only a true initiate of the conspiracy theory could produce.

I'm even more sorry that your professed ideologies have been responsible for millions of dead all around the world. The NAZIs were pikers compared to your guys when it came to genocide by government.

Trolling purposes

CountryboyRonPaul

06-24-2008, 07:41 AM

oh as an exciting aside I looked into it and the unsourced statement "Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue and that the United States supports the flag." on which this topic mostly depends was added by historian and Pledge of Allegiance expert 80.134.163.25.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pledge_of_Allegiance&diff=prev&oldid=58675974
way to think critically guys

Whether or not the Bellamy quote is true, the Pledge can still be interpreted as encouraging absolute allegiance to the US Govt.

My point in the thread was to point out the danger to liberty in absolute obedience to a state which frankly doesn't seem to have our best interests in mind anymore.

I love my country and the people in it, and for that reason I will be picky about who exactly I am willing to pledge my allegiance to.

PS. I do like the Pledge of Allegiance to the Constitution you guys came up with

TomtheTinker

09-08-2014, 04:28 PM

bump

Today is pledge of allegiance day in Rome, NY a small city about 20 minutes west of where I live. The pledge was created in Rome and there was just something on the news today which prompted me to google pledge of allegiance socialist propaganda that of course led me back to good old liberty forest.

thoughtomator

09-08-2014, 04:33 PM

My allegiance is to my countrymen. I owe a flag nothing.

Bastiat's The Law

09-08-2014, 05:22 PM

Well, he was a socialist right? Idolizing the flag and the union is creepy to me. Smacks of idolatry.

jllundqu

09-08-2014, 05:30 PM

Holy thread resurrection, batman!!

Deborah K

09-08-2014, 05:38 PM

This has bothered me for a long time. Why are we pledging allegiance to a "flag" rather than pledging allegiance to the ideals and principles that the flag stands for? I am always very uncomfortable in settings where we do this.

Someone from our local RLC group proposed starting our meetings with the following that we named "The Patriot Pledge":

Now there is a pledge that makes me want to stand at attention, cover my heart with my hand and recite with pride!

"For which it stands.." implies that we are pledging allegiance to the flag as the representation of these principles.

Christian Liberty

09-08-2014, 05:40 PM

"For which it stands.." implies that we are pledging allegiance to the flag as the representation of these principles.

"Principles" such as

Republic:

Republican government is not Biblical. Absolute statelessness is.

One Nation: Why is there anything intrinsically special about the USA?

Under God: God would be offended by this, IMO. We aren't God's Chosen nation.

Indivisible: By contrast, the 10th amendment allows secession, and there is certainly nothing unbiblical about it.

With liberty and justice for all: THis is clearly a joke.

Why pledge?

Deborah K

09-08-2014, 05:45 PM

"Principles" such as

Republic:

Republican government is not Biblical. Absolute statelessness is.

One Nation: Why is there anything intrinsically special about the USA?

Under God: God would be offended by this, IMO. We aren't God's Chosen nation.

Indivisible: By contrast, the 10th amendment allows secession, and there is certainly nothing unbiblical about it.

With liberty and justice for all: THis is clearly a joke.

Why pledge?

Why pledge? I don't know. Why? I was clarifying what that poster I responded to had written.

Btw, I have no problem with the "principles" as you state them, regardless of the fact that one or two of them are not "biblical" as you put it. And I have no problem with people making pledges, if that's what floats their boat.

Christian Liberty

09-08-2014, 05:58 PM

Why pledge? I don't know. Why? I was clarifying what that poster I responded to had written.

Btw, I have no problem with the "principles" as you state them, regardless of the fact that one or two of them are not "biblical" as you put it. And I have no problem with people making pledges, if that's what floats their boat.

If you'll recall, I started a thread on the topic of the pledge last year. SF really hammered me for even considering saying the pledge. I now believe that he was right. I really do think its a compromise on religious principle since Christians should give their allegiance to God alone.

I won't judge those who say the pledge. But, I can't possibly reconcile it with my Christian convictions and I really doubt the early (ante-nicene) church fathers could have done so either.

I WILL judge those who try to brainwash kids into pledging, or who allow the pledge in Christian churches. Those people are either brainwashed themselves, satanic, or both (I think the first category may be more common than the other two.)

heavenlyboy34

09-08-2014, 06:01 PM

Well, he was a socialist right? Idolizing the flag and the union is creepy to me. Smacks of idolatry.

Yes he was. A "Christian Socialist". history of teh pledge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance Author of the fascist meme known as teh pledge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy

69360

09-08-2014, 06:01 PM

It's tradition, it's quaint. It's just words. Some of you read too much into everything. I know the history of it and don't really care. I have fond memories of saying it in school.

heavenlyboy34

09-08-2014, 06:02 PM

Christian Liberty

09-08-2014, 06:02 PM

It's tradition, it's quaint. It's just words. Some of you read too much into everything. I know the history of it and don't really care. I have fond memories of saying it in school.

I have memories of brainwashing:p

There's no such thing as "just words". Everything has meaning. Swearing an oath of allegiance has meaning.

Anti Federalist

09-08-2014, 06:18 PM

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg235/Orange722/FACEPALM.jpg

Wish I could remember what this picture was...

Anti Federalist

09-08-2014, 06:21 PM

It's tradition, it's quaint. It's just words. Some of you read too much into everything. I know the history of it and don't really care. I have fond memories of saying it in school.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on a minute...

What is a "pledge", if not a solemn oath, with all the ramifications that entails?

When and who decides when it's just "meaningless words"?

Deborah K

09-08-2014, 06:24 PM

I have memories of brainwashing:p

There's no such thing as "just words". Everything has meaning. Swearing an oath of allegiance has meaning.

A pledge of allegiance is not swearing an oath.

69360

09-08-2014, 06:24 PM

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on a minute...

What is a "pledge", if not a solemn oath, with all the ramifications that entails?

When and who decides when it's just "meaningless words"?

Meh, lots of traditions don't make much sense a century later but we keep them up because they make us feel good and nostalgic. That's all it is, nothing more.

Deborah K

09-08-2014, 06:29 PM

If you'll recall, I started a thread on the topic of the pledge last year. SF really hammered me for even considering saying the pledge. I now believe that he was right. I really do think its a compromise on religious principle since Christians should give their allegiance to God alone.

I won't judge those who say the pledge. But, I can't possibly reconcile it with my Christian convictions and I really doubt the early (ante-nicene) church fathers could have done so either.

I WILL judge those who try to brainwash kids into pledging, or who allow the pledge in Christian churches. Those people are either brainwashed themselves, satanic, or both (I think the first category may be more common than the other two.)

I had to say it every morning in my government indoctrination center for 12 years. I'm not brainwashed. I don't care one way or another about the pledge of allegiance to the flag as a representation of our supposed republic. Like it or not, we have been awash with socialistic ideals and principles almost since the birth of this nation. That we are learning to discern the difference is a testament to our individualistic thinking and relative freedom - at least for now.

Deborah K

09-08-2014, 06:38 PM

Just found this: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-pledge-versus-the-oath excellent read!

pcosmar

09-08-2014, 06:41 PM

A pledge of allegiance is not swearing an oath.

NO King but Jesus.

I do not pledge allegiance to a flag, nor to the nation for which it stands.

I broke my brainwashing long ago.

Christian Liberty

09-08-2014, 06:44 PM

I had to say it every morning in my government indoctrination center for 12 years. I'm not brainwashed. I don't care one way or another about the pledge of allegiance to the flag as a representation of our supposed republic. Like it or not, we have been awash with socialistic ideals and principles almost since the birth of this nation. That we are learning to discern the difference is a testament to our individualistic thinking and relative freedom - at least for now.

I didn't say you were. I said that people who are OK with the pledge in church or who brainwash kids into pledging are brainwashed (or satanic) but I specifically said that I don't judge people who say the pledge. For what its worth, I saluted in public school to. I now regret it but I did do so.

Anti Federalist

09-08-2014, 06:45 PM

Meh, lots of traditions don't make much sense a century later but we keep them up because they make us feel good and nostalgic. That's all it is, nothing more.

Words have meaning...

69360

09-08-2014, 07:00 PM

Words have meaning...

Yeah, but the pledge is fairly harmless. I seriously doubt more than 1% of the population dissects the meaning of it. It's just something that they say because they love their country. Like flying a flag on the 4th. I just don't see the harm in it.

Anti Federalist

09-08-2014, 07:05 PM

Yeah, but the pledge is fairly harmless. I seriously doubt more than 1% of the population dissects the meaning of it. It's just something that they say because they love their country. Like flying a flag on the 4th. I just don't see the harm in it.

You're probably right about that one percent...

Nothing can be more harmful than blind allegiance.

These folks said the same thing, I'll wager.

http://i.imgur.com/lOt0nGN.jpg

otherone

09-08-2014, 07:40 PM

It's tradition, it's quaint. It's just words. Some of you read too much into everything. I know the history of it and don't really care. I have fond memories of saying it in school.

doubleplus good, comrade.
http://sadhillnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/big-brother-1984-ingsoc-gm-government-motors-general-motors-chocolate-rations-sad-hill-news.jpg

JK/SEA

09-08-2014, 07:56 PM

doubleplus good, comrade.
http://sadhillnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/big-brother-1984-ingsoc-gm-government-motors-general-motors-chocolate-rations-sad-hill-news.jpg

Extreme Nationalism should be everyones concern....

the PLEDGE is a brainwashing tool to perpetuate the fervor, and to expand it...many examples out there of peer pressure and authoritative pressure to achieve the maximum results...seems it works rather well even to this day.. ..nothing more, nothing less...

just thought i'd through that out there...

heavenlyboy34

09-08-2014, 07:58 PM

It's tradition, it's quaint. It's just words. Some of you read too much into everything. I know the history of it and don't really care. I have fond memories of saying it in school.

Yes, it seems so. But it's also propaganda designed to instill militant nationalism in Boobus. This is why you hear people quoting it in political speeches aimed at stirring enthusiasm with appeal to tradition/patriotism. Thoughts are things with real-life implications. One of many books (some are religious/buddhist, some are secular, and some mix the two) on the subject- http://www.mindserpent.com/library/mulford/thoughts_are_things.pdf

dude58677

09-08-2014, 09:20 PM

You learn something new everyday. Didn't know that about "the salute".

thoughtomator

09-08-2014, 09:29 PM

heavenlyboy34

09-08-2014, 09:47 PM

If you think the Pledge is meaningless, try making up your own words to it, or altering the text, next time you say it. Personally I always alter it to make clear that my allegiance is due to my fellow countrymen and to the Rule of Law, and NOT any flag nor any government. I've seen several people on RPFs over the years say they insert "constitution" or some other thing instead of "flag". I prefer to remain silent. I'm with Pete-no king but Jesus.

Christian Liberty

09-08-2014, 09:48 PM

I've seen several people on RPFs over the years say they insert "constitution" or some other thing instead of "flag". I prefer to remain silent. I'm with Pete-no king but Jesus.

Yeah, I usually stand out of respect for the other people, but don't put my hand to the heart or pledge. I don't know what I'd do if I was in the room while it was being done in a church though. I would WANT to call whoever was doing it a minister of Satan who needs to repent, even if it was my own father or uncle... That would be my heart's reaction.