More Than 90 Percent of Americans Believe in God, Study Finds

[constitutional]

More Than 90 Percent of Americans Believe in God, Study Finds
One in Five Self-Proclaimed Athiests Express Faith in Higher Power

By Jacqueline L. Salmon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, June 23, 2008; 12:00 PM

More than 90 percent of Americans -- including one in five people who say they are atheists -- believe in God or a universal power, and more than half pray at least once a day, according to results of a poll released today that takes an in-depth look at Americans' religious beliefs.

The poll, by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, also found that nearly three-fourths of Americans believe in heaven as a place where people who have led good lives will be eternally rewarded. And almost 60 percent believe in hell, where people who have led bad lives and die without repenting are eternally punished, the poll found.

Majorities also believe that angels and demons are at work in the world and that miracles occur today as they did in ancient times.

"These are common beliefs among the American public," said Gregory A. Smith, a research fellow at the Pew Forum, a D.C. think tank.

This is the organization's second report that is based on one of the largest polls of Americans' religious beliefs ever conducted, with more than 36,000 adults interviewed.

The first report released in February took a broad look at the American religious landscape, while this report dives deeply into the faith and politics of religious, and non-religious, Americans.

On the political side, for example, it found, among Jews who pray daily, 36 percent are politically conservative -- more than twice as many as those who pray less often. Among evangelical Christians, 56 percent who pray daily are politically conservative, compared to 40 percent of all other evangelical Christians.

On the whole, though, that difference holds true more for Christian faiths than non-Christian faiths, the poll found. "Members of non-Christian faiths," the report says, "tend to be much more moderate or liberal."

Two-thirds of Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists are Democrats or lean Democratic, compared with 22 percent of Mormons. Also, 77 percent of historically black churches are Democrats or lean Democratic, while only one-third of evangelical churches are Democrats or lean Democratic.

It also found some agreement among the most faithful and the least faithful. While it confirms that those who attend church and pray frequently are most likely to oppose legalized abortion and believe that homosexuality should be discouraged, it finds less of a divide on other issues.

More than 60 percent of Americans across the religious and secular spectrum want the government to do more to help the needy and support stronger environmental laws, for example. And majorities in most religions believe the United States should concentrate more on problems at home and pay less attention to problems overseas, according to the report.

On these issues, "we can see a kind of consensus that exists across a great variety of religious groups," said Smith.

The study confirmed what is already known about the United States -- that it is a deeply religious nation. But it fleshes out that stereotype with myriad details that add depth and complexity, and some surprises, to the picture.

For example, along with 21 percent of the people who describe themselves as atheists but express a belief in God or a universal spirit, more than half of those who say they are agnostic express a similar conviction.

But most Americans -- even many of the most religiously conservative -- have a non-exclusive attitude toward other faiths. Seventy percent of those affiliated with a religion believe that many religions, not just their own, can lead to eternal salvation. Just about one-quarter believe there is only one true way to interpret their own religion's teachings.

"Even though Americans tend to take religion quite seriously and are a highly religious people, there is a certain degree of openness and a lack dogmatism in their approach to faith and the teachings of their faith," said Smith. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/23/AR2008062300813_pf.html

WOW. Much higher than what I initially thought.

[asgardshill]

Believing in a deity is the smart play. If G_d does exist, then it makes sense to try to ingratiate yourself to Him in hopes that He will fit you for a harp and halo when you pass on. If G_d does NOT exist, then the only thing that expressing a belief in Him costs you is a little bit of dignity.

[Kludge]

Frank Luntz is not unique ;)

[Madcat455]

WOW. Much higher than what I initially thought.



Not really... when you consider that those 36000 pollsters were probably taking opinions from "select" places on Sunday afternoons:rolleyes:


90% of statistics can be made to say anything 50% of the time:p

[pinkmandy]

There's a huge difference between universal power and God. We can all define universal power in a different way- for some it's simply energy. Oth, just over half of the people pray every day. There's a discrepancy there.

[constitutional]

I'm glad Bill Maher is releasing his new documentary this year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSa2j6UoU78

[yongrel]

I'm glad Bill Maher is releasing his new documentary this year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSa2j6UoU78

ooh, spiffy

[Hiki]

I'm glad Bill Maher is releasing his new documentary this year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSa2j6UoU78

Ahahahaa, looks great :D Maher is the man.

[Truth Warrior]

What does human "institutionalized" religion AKA "church" have to do with GOD?

Not much! :p

"By their fruits, ye shall know them." ;)

[Conza88]

ooh, spiffy

Haha, SPIFFY!!! :D

On a side note: Uh ohhes theocrat is gonna get Maaaad. :D

[Monolithic]

slightly depressing, but i also read that a large portion of americans believe their faith isn't the only way, so that's good, at least this country isn't completely lost

[raystone]

George Carlin says different: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Kade]

More Than 90 Percent of Americans Believe in God, Study Finds
One in Five Self-Proclaimed Athiests Express Faith in Higher Power

By Jacqueline L. Salmon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, June 23, 2008; 12:00 PM

More than 90 percent of Americans -- including one in five people who say they are atheists -- believe in God or a universal power, and more than half pray at least once a day, according to results of a poll released today that takes an in-depth look at Americans' religious beliefs.

The poll, by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, also found that nearly three-fourths of Americans believe in heaven as a place where people who have led good lives will be eternally rewarded. And almost 60 percent believe in hell, where people who have led bad lives and die without repenting are eternally punished, the poll found.

Majorities also believe that angels and demons are at work in the world and that miracles occur today as they did in ancient times.

"These are common beliefs among the American public," said Gregory A. Smith, a research fellow at the Pew Forum, a D.C. think tank.

This is the organization's second report that is based on one of the largest polls of Americans' religious beliefs ever conducted, with more than 36,000 adults interviewed.

The first report released in February took a broad look at the American religious landscape, while this report dives deeply into the faith and politics of religious, and non-religious, Americans.

On the political side, for example, it found, among Jews who pray daily, 36 percent are politically conservative -- more than twice as many as those who pray less often. Among evangelical Christians, 56 percent who pray daily are politically conservative, compared to 40 percent of all other evangelical Christians.

On the whole, though, that difference holds true more for Christian faiths than non-Christian faiths, the poll found. "Members of non-Christian faiths," the report says, "tend to be much more moderate or liberal."

Two-thirds of Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists are Democrats or lean Democratic, compared with 22 percent of Mormons. Also, 77 percent of historically black churches are Democrats or lean Democratic, while only one-third of evangelical churches are Democrats or lean Democratic.

It also found some agreement among the most faithful and the least faithful. While it confirms that those who attend church and pray frequently are most likely to oppose legalized abortion and believe that homosexuality should be discouraged, it finds less of a divide on other issues.

More than 60 percent of Americans across the religious and secular spectrum want the government to do more to help the needy and support stronger environmental laws, for example. And majorities in most religions believe the United States should concentrate more on problems at home and pay less attention to problems overseas, according to the report.

On these issues, "we can see a kind of consensus that exists across a great variety of religious groups," said Smith.

The study confirmed what is already known about the United States -- that it is a deeply religious nation. But it fleshes out that stereotype with myriad details that add depth and complexity, and some surprises, to the picture.

For example, along with 21 percent of the people who describe themselves as atheists but express a belief in God or a universal spirit, more than half of those who say they are agnostic express a similar conviction.

But most Americans -- even many of the most religiously conservative -- have a non-exclusive attitude toward other faiths. Seventy percent of those affiliated with a religion believe that many religions, not just their own, can lead to eternal salvation. Just about one-quarter believe there is only one true way to interpret their own religion's teachings.

"Even though Americans tend to take religion quite seriously and are a highly religious people, there is a certain degree of openness and a lack dogmatism in their approach to faith and the teachings of their faith," said Smith. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/23/AR2008062300813_pf.html

WOW. Much higher than what I initially thought.

90% of us are idiots. The data matches my feelings.

[Kade]

What does human "institutionalized" religion AKA "church" have to do with GOD?



This:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/images/content/173697main_ssbrp.jpg

[raystone]

The First 2 Survey Questions..

1. Have you heard the recent report that those who believe in God are more wealthy, have a higher quality of living, and have better sex lives than those who don't believe in God ?

2. Do you believe in God ?

[LibertyEagle]

slightly depressing, but i also read that a large portion of americans believe their faith isn't the only way, so that's good, at least this country isn't completely lost

Why is it depressing? What exactly do you dislike about the 1st Amendment?

[Monolithic]

Why is it depressing? What exactly do you dislike about the 1st Amendment?

i don't have a very high opinion of religion in general

[Truth Warrior]

This:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/images/content/173697main_ssbrp.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context
:p

[LibertyEagle]

i don't have a very high opinion of religion in general

That's your choice. Don't you think others should have the option of believing what THEY want to believe too? Or, would you rather the 1st Amendment be thrown out?

[Monolithic]

jesus christ, what are you getting so up in arms for, i'm not attacking the constitution or first amendment, i'm just saying i was slightly depressed and annoyed that people still believe in myths and fairy tales

[Kade]

jesus christ, what are you getting so up in arms for, i'm not attacking the constitution or first amendment, i'm just saying i was slightly depressed and annoyed that people still believe in myths and fairy tales

My friend, you don't want to start this battle. It's a fine, thin line. Your "first amendment" right is protected and cherished if you only use it to honor the religiously pious.


I was typing out a response in your defense, it seems rather odd to call you out for an opinion, especially invoking the first amendment, which you didn't. It is depressing to see this many people still hold such a strong dependence on some form of statism, be it emotional, physical, or "spiritual".

[LibertyEagle]

jesus christ, what are you getting so up in arms for, i'm not attacking the constitution or first amendment, i'm just saying i was slightly depressed and annoyed that people still believe in myths and fairy tales

Well see, right there, you just insulted a large number of people with your "myths and fairy tales" comment. I can support you believing in whatever you choose to believe in, without insulting you (and believe me I COULD); why can't you support the right of Christians to have their own beliefs, without insulting THEM?

[LibertyEagle]

My friend, you don't want to start this battle. It's a fine, thin line. Your "first amendment" right is protected and cherished if you only use it to honor the religiously pious.

Not so at all. Why can't people just leave everyone else alone about their religious beliefs? Why does one side have to insult the other? Does it make them feel like big men or something? I just don't get it.


It is depressing to see this many people still hold such a strong dependence on some form of statism, be it emotional, physical, or "spiritual".

Case in point. :(

[Kade]

Not so at all. Why can't people just leave everyone else alone about their religious beliefs? Why does one side have to insult the other? Does it make them feel like big men or something? I just don't get it.



Case in point. :(

I lived in a religiously stubborn and aggressive county. It has affected my life negatively. To this date, our government is run by Professional Moralists... if you care about leaving people alone, I more than honor that... the truth is that your stance is not a reality. The religious rule this country, and are one of the major causes of it's damaging and restrictive atmosphere.

For instance: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gnLulDbwWGYGLiXlDW5hPiNMGMRQD91GDOM00

[Truth Warrior]

I lived in a religiously stubborn and aggressive county. It has affected my life negatively. To this date, our government is run by Professional Moralists... if you care about leaving people alone, I more than honor that... the truth is that your stance is not a reality. The religious rule this country, and are one of the major causes of it's damaging and restrictive atmosphere.

For instance: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gnLulDbwWGYGLiXlDW5hPiNMGMRQD91GDOM00
How many theists have YOU voted FOR, in total, to RUN the country? :p

Is Obama a theist? :D

More that ZERO makes you a hypocrite. :rolleyes:

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Believing in a deity is the smart play. If G_d does exist, then it makes sense to try to ingratiate yourself to Him in hopes that He will fit you for a harp and halo when you pass on. If G_d does NOT exist, then the only thing that expressing a belief in Him costs you is a little bit of dignity.

I just can't bring myself to believe in things that truly do not exist. Sorry.

[LibertyEagle]

I lived in a religiously stubborn and aggressive county. It has affected my life negatively. To this date, our government is run by Professional Moralists... if you care about leaving people alone, I more than honor that... the truth is that your stance is not a reality. The religious rule this country, and are one of the major causes of it's damaging and restrictive atmosphere.



You are mistaking people who call themselves Christian, with those who really are. There are all kinds of things being done today in the name of God and the reality is that God would have nothing of it. Please no one tell me that you honestly believe that George W. Bush is a Christian. :rolleyes:

It is true that some have fallen for the propaganda about the threat of Islam with regard to who they have been told are God's chosen people, but they are just a tool, along with all the other do-gooders out there. You know, the tree huggers, the UN lovers, the "oh wouldn't world government be so dandy -- we'll all live in peace" nincompoops, the "we need to increase government so that they can legally steal from your pocket to help the downtrodden" fools, etc. All of these people and more, have been sold a bill of goods and been USED to further the increase in the size of government, the selling out of our national sovereignty and the destruction of our Bill of Rights. Just like how the divide and conquer mentality has been used to create divisions between races, sexes and financial standing.

Somehow, we've got to get past this. If we don't, we're just falling for the very trap that they have laid for us. They know they have to keep us divided and fighting, because if we stopped and focused on THEM, they would be toppled almost immediately.

[LibertyEagle]

I just can't bring myself to believe in things that truly do not exist. Sorry.

That is your OPINION. Please allow others to have their own, without insulting them.

[pcosmar]

I am not very "religious", in fact I am rather irreligious, but I do have my own faith and beliefs.
This article is not saying anything other than people have beliefs. It is not promoting any particular religion, but just stating a fact.
The Constitution does not protect anyone from being offended by someones faith.
It only protects the right to believe and worship (or not) as you wish.
It seems that a vocal minority wants to take that right from the majority.

As it happens I just got this E-mail, and it seem appropriate.



> Paul Harvey says:
>
> I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin , but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his Theory of Evolution.
>
> Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire Book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking Him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.
>
> But it's a Christian prayer, some will argue.
>
> Yes, and this is the United States of America , a country founded on Christian principles. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect -- somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
>
> If I went to a football game Jerusalem , I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.
>
> If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad , I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.
>
> If I went to a ping pong match in China , I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha.
>
> And I wouldn't be offended.It wouldn't bother me one bit.
> When in Rome .....
>
> But what about the atheists? Is another argument.
>
> What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer!
>
> Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.
>
> Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep.Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.
>
> God, help us.. And if that last sentence offends you, well, just sue me.
>
> The silent majority has been silent too long. It's time we tell that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard that the vast majority doesn't care what they want. It is time that the majority Rules!
It's time we tell them, You don't have to pray; you don't have to say the Pledge of Allegiance; you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right; but by golly, you are no longer going to take our rights away. We are fighting back, and we WILL WIN!
>
> God bless us one and all ... Especially those who denounce Him, God bless America, despite all her faults. She is still the greatest nation of all. God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God.

> Let's make 2008the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions .. And our military forces come home from all the wars.
>
> Keep looking up.
>
>

> 'AND THAT'S THE REST OF THE STORY'

[SeanEdwards]

That's a lot of stupid people.

[zeke105]

[INDENT][INDENT]More Than 90 Percent of Americans Believe in God, Study Finds
One in Five Self-Proclaimed Athiests Express Faith in Higher Power



This is actually a common misconception about atheism. Atheism doesn't necessarily imply lack of belief in all kinds of higher power, but a lack of belief in theism, i.e. "Theism is the belief in the existence of one or more divinities or deities. There is also a narrower sense in which theism refers to the belief that one or more divinities are immanent in the world, yet transcend it, along with the idea that divinity(s) is/are omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.[1] Theism contrasts with nontheism, the state of not believing in deities."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism

[JosephTheLibertarian]

You are mistaking people who call themselves Christian, with those who really are.

Support capital punishment? Pro-life? If so, you're not. Jesus is portrayed as a libertarian hippie. I doubt he would condone institutionized MURDER. ;)


There are all kinds of things being done today in the name of God and the reality is that God would have nothing of it.

"God" does not exist.


Please no one tell me that you honestly believe that George W. Bush is a Christian. :rolleyes:

No, and I don't think anyone is. It just feels good to believe, eh? Self righteous one?


It is true that some have fallen for the propaganda about the threat of Islam with regard to who they have been told are God's chosen people, but they are just a tool, along with all the other do-gooders out there.

ya think?


You know, the tree huggers, the UN lovers, the "oh wouldn't world government be so dandy -- we'll all live in peace" nincompoops, the "we need to increase government so that they can legally steal from your pocket to help the downtrodden" fools, etc.

How about the infamous right-wing nuts that want to impose their bullshit morals onto me? Check out the Constitution Party platform.


All of these people and more, have been sold a bill of goods and been USED to further the increase in the size of government, the selling out of our national sovereignty and the destruction of our Bill of Rights. Just like how the divide and conquer mentality has been used to create divisions between races, sexes and financial standing.

There are no borders, that's all in our mind. The lines you see on maps are territorial claims by the various world mafia.


Somehow, we've got to get past this. If we don't, we're just falling for the very trap that they have laid for us. They know they have to keep us divided and fighting, because if we stopped and focused on THEM, they would be toppled almost immediately.

You can start by ceasing to attack Bob Barr at every god damn juncture.

Regards,

PS if you despise my rhetoric, then you must despise Mary Ruwart (the one you said you suported) because she believes in the same exact things as me. ;) but as a pragmatist, I couldn.t bring myself to support a sinking ship like Mary Ruwart.

[Bruno]

It's no surprise that the numbers are so high. People believe largely in the diety they were raised by their parents to believe in, which is a result of the country and culture where they reside. Only a small percentage of people switch religions and beliefs entirely.

Most Americans go through a phase as a child of attending church, synagogue or moque, attend less as a teenager, many rarely at all as a young adult because the choice is now theirs, possibly go through periods of doubt, and then return to the church to raise their own children with the same upbringing they were brought up with. They may then again return to periods of less attendance and belief in the church, but return to it in their later years as death is more imminent.

So the numbers do not surprise me.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

It's no surprise that the numbers are so high. People believe largely in the diety they were raised by their parents to believe in, which is a result of the country and culture where they reside. Only a small percentage of people switch religions and beliefs entirely.

True. It's brainwashing. For all of your sensitive people out there, this is what I call delusive indoctrination. ;)


Most Americans go through a phase as a child of attending church, synagogue or moque, attend less as a teenager, many rarely at all as a young adult because the choice is now theirs, possibly go through periods of doubt, and then return to the church to raise their own children with the same upbringing they were brought up with. They may then again return to periods of less attendance and belief in the church, but return to it in their later years as death is more imminent.

So the numbers do not surprise me.

I can tell you I won't.... unless the woman I want to be with is religious, then I will make that sacrifice, but not otherwise. I would naturally let my kids believe in whatever they want to believe in. Does not matter to me.

[Alex Libman]

And over 95% of Americans wouldn't pass Nuclear Physics 101 at MIT. That doesn't make ignorance of nuclear physics any more desirable.


---


[Off-topic section removed by Moderator]

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

anyone else notice how insecure Christians are with their religion?

or is that just me...?

[Theocrat]

More Than 90 Percent of Americans Believe in God, Study Finds
One in Five Self-Proclaimed Athiests Express Faith in Higher Power

By Jacqueline L. Salmon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, June 23, 2008; 12:00 PM

More than 90 percent of Americans -- including one in five people who say they are atheists -- believe in God or a universal power, and more than half pray at least once a day, according to results of a poll released today that takes an in-depth look at Americans' religious beliefs.

The poll, by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, also found that nearly three-fourths of Americans believe in heaven as a place where people who have led good lives will be eternally rewarded. And almost 60 percent believe in hell, where people who have led bad lives and die without repenting are eternally punished, the poll found.

Majorities also believe that angels and demons are at work in the world and that miracles occur today as they did in ancient times.

"These are common beliefs among the American public," said Gregory A. Smith, a research fellow at the Pew Forum, a D.C. think tank.

This is the organization's second report that is based on one of the largest polls of Americans' religious beliefs ever conducted, with more than 36,000 adults interviewed.

The first report released in February took a broad look at the American religious landscape, while this report dives deeply into the faith and politics of religious, and non-religious, Americans.

On the political side, for example, it found, among Jews who pray daily, 36 percent are politically conservative -- more than twice as many as those who pray less often. Among evangelical Christians, 56 percent who pray daily are politically conservative, compared to 40 percent of all other evangelical Christians.

On the whole, though, that difference holds true more for Christian faiths than non-Christian faiths, the poll found. "Members of non-Christian faiths," the report says, "tend to be much more moderate or liberal."

Two-thirds of Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists are Democrats or lean Democratic, compared with 22 percent of Mormons. Also, 77 percent of historically black churches are Democrats or lean Democratic, while only one-third of evangelical churches are Democrats or lean Democratic.

It also found some agreement among the most faithful and the least faithful. While it confirms that those who attend church and pray frequently are most likely to oppose legalized abortion and believe that homosexuality should be discouraged, it finds less of a divide on other issues.

More than 60 percent of Americans across the religious and secular spectrum want the government to do more to help the needy and support stronger environmental laws, for example. And majorities in most religions believe the United States should concentrate more on problems at home and pay less attention to problems overseas, according to the report.

On these issues, "we can see a kind of consensus that exists across a great variety of religious groups," said Smith.

The study confirmed what is already known about the United States -- that it is a deeply religious nation. But it fleshes out that stereotype with myriad details that add depth and complexity, and some surprises, to the picture.

For example, along with 21 percent of the people who describe themselves as atheists but express a belief in God or a universal spirit, more than half of those who say they are agnostic express a similar conviction.

But most Americans -- even many of the most religiously conservative -- have a non-exclusive attitude toward other faiths. Seventy percent of those affiliated with a religion believe that many religions, not just their own, can lead to eternal salvation. Just about one-quarter believe there is only one true way to interpret their own religion's teachings.

"Even though Americans tend to take religion quite seriously and are a highly religious people, there is a certain degree of openness and a lack dogmatism in their approach to faith and the teachings of their faith," said Smith. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/23/AR2008062300813_pf.html

WOW. Much higher than what I initially thought.

Thanks for the article, TheAmistad. This statistic is shocking to me, but after some consideration, it does hold some weight. It is very logical for someone to believe in God, especially with all of the complexity and order we observe in our universe. As moral creatures, we have a sense that there is some standard of right and wrong which exists outside of ourselves (though some suppress that truth in their consciences), and generally speaking, we believe that moral standard comes from a universal, eternal, all-wise and all-powerful Being.

Unfortunately, there is another religion which is springing up in America seeking to get rid of any mention of there being a Creator God, and that religion is Humanism. Fortunately, they are the minority (about 10%, according to the statistic aforementioned), and hopefully, that number will decrease as these secular religionists become more informed and reasoned about the irrationality and immoral nature of their own beliefs.

[Theocrat]

anyone else notice how insecure Christians are with their religion?

or is that just me...?

Some Christians are insecure; others (like myself) are not.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

anyone else notice how insecure Christians are with their religion?

or is that just me...?

They sure are!

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

Some Christians are insecure; others (like myself) are not.

i agree that not all Christians are insecure (it seems), but as a whole. If you look at it as a collective; maybe I just answered my own question. ...

When Christians are collectivists they are insecure. hmmmmm, so the insecurity has nothing to do with the actual faith. It has been my experience (and opinion) that most Christians are insecure with their faith. Does that mean most Christians are not Christians and that the Christian faith is not nearly as wide spread as it seems?

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm really interested in this. Let me know what you think.

[Theocrat]

i agree that not all Christians are insecure (it seems), but as a whole. If you look at it as a collective; maybe I just answered my own question. ...

When Christians are collectivists they are insecure. hmmmmm, so the insecurity has nothing to do with the actual faith. It has been my experience (and opinion) that most Christians are insecure with their faith. Does that mean most Christians are not Christians and that the Christian faith is not nearly as wide spread as it seems?

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm really interested in this. Let me know what you think.

I would say the Christians which are insecure in their beliefs are usually the ones who don't know their Bibles very well. In the Church, we call those Christians "liberal Christians." They're the ones more likely to compromise their beliefs when it comes to natural science, morals, theology, politics, etc.

When you say "Christians are collectivists," what do you mean by that?

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I would say the Christians which are insecure in their beliefs are usually the ones who don't know their Bibles very well. In the Church, we call those Christians "liberal Christians." They're the ones more likely to compromise their beliefs when it comes to natural science, morals, theology, politics, etc.

When you say "Christians are collectivists," what do you mean by that?

Jesus would have been pro-choice.

[Monolithic]

I would say the Christians which are insecure in their beliefs are usually the ones who don't know their Bibles very well. In the Church, we call those Christians "liberal Christians." They're the ones more likely to compromise their beliefs when it comes to natural science, morals, theology, politics, etc.

When you say "Christians are collectivists," what do you mean by that?

"reasonable Christians" would be more apt

[Theocrat]

"reasonable Christians" would be more apt

:confused:

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

what I meant by Christians being collectivists was when people are pressured into the church, etc. When they go to church because that is the thing to do. It's like with all these churches that are going toward a more youthful type of service. I was part of that crowd at one point so I understand the pull. But shouldn't someone's faith be a supremely personal thing?

[JosephTheLibertarian]

what I meant by Christians being collectivists was when people are pressured into the church, etc. When they go to church because that is the thing to do. It's like with all these churches that are going toward a more youthful type of service. I was part of that crowd at one point so I understand the pull. But shouldn't someone's faith be a supremely personal thing?

But faith in something you have no evidence for? That's not very nice.

[Truth Warrior]

Jesus would have been pro-choice.
How many of the preborn did he approve killing? :rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

But faith in something you have no evidence for? That's not very nice. Maybe that's why it's called faith! :rolleyes:

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

But faith in something you have no evidence for? That's not very nice.

what?:confused:

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Maybe that's why it's called faith! :rolleyes:

Yeah, but what's your justification? Just because you were indoctrinated?

[Truth Warrior]

Yeah, but what's your justification? Just because you were indoctrinated?
No justification required.

I'm not talking about me, just talking generically. :rolleyes:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

[Acala]

I don't care what religion a person practices. So long as they do it on their own dime, on their own time, on their own property, and leave me out of it. I am quite capable of managing my own spirtitual life, thank you. And I am not interested in paying for yours.

I may have some opinions about some of those practices, and I have a right to express those opinions, but I don't because I don't want to hurt people's feelings or creating friction in society. And what is the point of bashing other people's religion (or lack of) anyway? Mainly just to help you feel like you are right I think.

What DOES get my undies twisted is when Christians whine about being prevented from using public resources to promote their beliefs. Or when they promote using the power of government to enforce "Christian values". Be a good citizen and pay your own way and keep you morality to yourself.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

No justification required.

I'm not talking about me, just talking generically. :rolleyes:

You need some justification, sonny boy.

[Truth Warrior]

You need some justification, sonny boy.
No, YOU need some justification. I'm pleased where I am. :)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

[JosephTheLibertarian]

No, YOU need some justification. I'm pleased where I am. :)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

Oh yea? What do I need the justification for, I'm not the one with the faith here. I just would like to know your justification.

You know what would cool?

LEW ROCKWELL

anti-state

anti-religion

anti-war

pro-market

that would be cool, but I know he's an xtian.

[Theocrat]

what I meant by Christians being collectivists was when people are pressured into the church, etc. When they go to church because that is the thing to do. It's like with all these churches that are going toward a more youthful type of service. I was part of that crowd at one point so I understand the pull. But shouldn't someone's faith be a supremely personal thing?

The Christian Faith is one of both privacy and public community. Christians often forget the latter part of their Christian life because we are united together as Christ's Church (His "Bride", as it's termed in many Biblical texts), and God calls us to fellowship and worship together as a family.

I feel what you're saying about people being "forced" into attending church, and frankly, I'm ashamed of some of the tactics used by my Christian brothers and sisters to steer people into church (good coffee, video games, short sermons, etc.). Church attendance should not be "forced" on anyone, but naturally a Christian desires (or should desire) to attend the assembly with his fellow saints to worship God.

In short, Christianity is not a life lived in isolation. We are part of a holy body. After all, Jesus Himself walked with disciples.

[Theocrat]

But faith in something you have no evidence for? That's not very nice.

There's plenty of evidence for the Christian faith. It's just that Joe doesn't like the evidence. There's a difference between proof and persuasion, you know. ;)

[JosephTheLibertarian]

There's plenty of evidence for the Christian faith. It's just that Joe doesn't like the evidence. There's a difference between proof and persuasion, you know. ;)

It's just that you never show me anything. You just ignore me or you try to belittle me, I don't think that counts for anything.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

The Christian Faith is one of both privacy and public community. Christians often forget the latter part of their Christian life because we are united together as Christ's Church (His "Bride", as it's termed in many Biblical texts), and God calls us to fellowship and worship together as a family.

I feel what you're saying about people being "forced" into attending church, and frankly, I'm ashamed of some of the tactics used by my Christian brothers and sisters to steer people into church (good coffee, video games, short sermons, etc.). Church attendance should not be "forced" on anyone, but naturally a Christian desires (or should desire) to attend the assembly with his fellow saints to worship God.

In short, Christianity is not a life lived in isolation. We are part of a holy body. After all, Jesus Himself walked with disciples.

So heres the next question. Where is the line drawn when it comes to being non-isolationist? And does that mean Christians are interventionists? Or did I miss something?

[Truth Warrior]

Oh yea? What do I need the justification for, I'm not the one with the faith here. I just would like to know your justification.

You know what would cool?

LEW ROCKWELL

anti-state

anti-religion

anti-war

pro-market

that would be cool, but I know he's an xtian.

Of course you would. :D

MYOB! :rolleyes:

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Of course you would. :D

MYOB! :rolleyes:

MYOB?

[Theocrat]

It's just that you never show me anything. You just ignore me or you try to belittle me, I don't think that counts for anything.

If it seems that way to you, I sincerely apologize for ignoring you or belittling you. Admittedly, I do need to work on my humility.

Having said that, I think I have given you adequate evidences for the Christian faith, everything from scientific viewpoints to Biblical/historical accounts which attest to the validity of Christianity. I've observed, however, that you usually counter those evidences with other sources of your own or you yourself will subject the evidences to ridicule.

To me, this shows that people are not changed by facts. One can only think of the national/media ridicule, attacks, and ignoring of our beloved congressman. Dr. Paul gave them fact after fact during debates and interviews, yet that didn't change the majority of people's minds. They still voted for the likes of a McCain and Obama. People must change their worldview if they wish to be convinced by the facts. As soon as people realize that intellectual neutrality is just a myth, the sooner I think people will start waking up to the truth and accepting the facts.

That's what it would take for you, Joe, to accept the truth and evidences of the Christian faith. You must change your underlying assumptions about the nature of knowledge, reality, and morality to begin to delve into the deep mysteries of the sovereign God.

*Steps off soapbox*

[Theocrat]

So heres the next question. Where is the line drawn when it comes to being non-isolationist? And does that mean Christians are interventionists? Or did I miss something?

You have to explain to me what you mean by "being non-isolationist." Is it in reference to foreign policy? Public policy?

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

You have to explain to me what you mean by "being non-isolationist." Is it in reference to foreign policy? Public policy?


In short, Christianity is not a life lived in isolation. We are part of a holy body. After all, Jesus Himself walked with disciples.

not foreign policy. maybe public policy. definitly personal policy.

[Theocrat]

not foreign policy. maybe public policy. definitly personal policy.

I see. I guess the line is drawn ultimately where God "makes the breaks" as defined in His Word. In other words, God gives certain jurisdictional authority between family life and worship practices and church life and worship practices. I don't have all of the Biblical references before me right now to substantiate that, but in broad strokes, I would say that's where isolationism and non-intervention would take place. Does that answer your question?

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

could you elaborate a little?

[Theocrat]

could you elaborate a little?

As Christians, there are certain times when it's appropriate to be an isolationist. In a church, a Christian family can isolate themselves from a congregation if they feel the church is teaching heresy, for instance. There are other times where Christians should not be isolationists. A Christian should not think it's healthy in his spiritual walk to never attend a worship service or to never read his Bible.

There are times where Christians should be non-interventionists. A pastor cannot force a married couple to adopt a certain "sexual schedule" or force them to attend a particular service. However, there are times where it is good for a Christian to intervene. For example, if a person is living in blatant, unrepentant sin, a Christian is suppose to call that person to repentance, and let the Church know if it worsens. The church body can then step in after a certain period of time and excommunicate that person from the Church.

[Kade]

People should be insecure with their religion. There is not rational reason for it's continued dominance.

In public, we refuse to talk about religion, for whatever reason. It is a mantra to say that it is an issue of privacy. I honor another man's privacy. The idea that politics should be something we do not talk about is a fallacy in a democracy. Now that religion is politics, and our country continues to slide down theocratic rabbithole, we cannot afford to continue to promote religion as a privacy issue. It is not. Not anymore. Until the religious honor the same sacred oath of personal faith, religion is a public issue, and people should probably stand up and proclaim their individual insanities for the world to see and understand, especially in running for public office.

When you have people like James Dobson weighing in on politics and elections in order to sway voters, religion has lost it's right to privacy. This is not negotiable, there is much too much to risk.

The fact that 90% of this country believes in god is negligible. I'm worried more about the people who believe that a god actually cares.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Believing in a deity is the smart play. If G_d does exist, then it makes sense to try to ingratiate yourself to Him in hopes that He will fit you for a harp and halo when you pass on. If G_d does NOT exist, then the only thing that expressing a belief in Him costs you is a little bit of dignity.

Are you of Jewish or Arab ancestry? I just happened to notice that you don't spell God as God but as G_d.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

People should be insecure with their religion. There is not rational reason for it's continued dominance.

In public, we refuse to talk about religion, for whatever reason. It is a mantra to say that it is an issue of privacy. I honor another man's privacy. The idea that politics should be something we do not talk about is a fallacy in a democracy. Now that religion is politics, and our country continues to slide down theocratic rabbithole, we cannot afford to continue to promote religion as a privacy issue. It is not. Not anymore. Until the religious honor the same sacred oath of personal faith, religion is a public issue, and people should probably stand up and proclaim their individual insanities for the world to see and understand, especially in running for public office.

When you have people like James Dobson weighing in on politics and elections in order to sway voters, religion has lost it's right to privacy. This is not negotiable, there is much too much to risk.

The fact that 90% of this country believes in god is negligible. I'm worried more about the people who believe that a god actually cares.

It isn't our religious culture that persecutes but our secularized religious culture that does so. We all have one of those.

[Truth Warrior]

MYOB?
Mind Your Own Business, as most libertarians know. :rolleyes:

[Kade]

It isn't our religious culture that persecutes but our secularized religious culture that does so. We all have one of those.

Neutrality is not persecution, regardless of what the 90% thinks.

[Monolithic]

sorta related

http://www.forward.com/articles/13622/

Dobson and his cadre of Attack Lawyers plan on a challenge against laws prohibiting churches from formally campaigning for candidates.

they realize they're losing power and are now trying to attack the first amendment

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

As Christians, there are certain times when it's appropriate to be an isolationist. In a church, a Christian family can isolate themselves from a congregation if they feel the church is teaching heresy, for instance. There are other times where Christians should not be isolationists. A Christian should not think it's healthy in his spiritual walk to never attend a worship service or to never read his Bible.

There are times where Christians should be non-interventionists. A pastor cannot force a married couple to adopt a certain "sexual schedule" or force them to attend a particular service. However, there are times where it is good for a Christian to intervene. For example, if a person is living in blatant, unrepentant sin, a Christian is suppose to call that person to repentance, and let the Church know if it worsens. The church body can then step in after a certain period of time and excommunicate that person from the Church.

Do you differentiate a Catholic from a Christian? While Catholics still worship the legal precedent rituals created by the authority of the Pope and the Vatican, reestablished Christians worship the Word of God in the Bible as the authority. The bible was not opened up to be read by Christians until the 16th century. Martin Luther did this of course.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Neutrality is not persecution, regardless of what the 90% thinks.

Our tendencies to persecute ourselves doesn't come from the worshipping of our present religions but from our deeply rooted Puritan culture to do so. Read "The Scarlet Letter." During this time a man could be shackled for forgetting to carry a bible in his right hand when in public.

[Theocrat]

Neutrality is not persecution, regardless of what the 90% thinks.

You're not neutral, you religious "atheist." You want to remove God from every public institution, and that is forcing your religious views on other people. Secularism is a religion. Stop spreading your doubt on people.

[Monolithic]

atheism by definition is a lack of religion

not a religion

[Theocrat]

Do you differentiate a Catholic from a Christian? While Catholics still worship the legal precedent rituals created by the authority of the Pope and the Vatican, reestablished Christians worship the Word of God in the Bible as the authority. The bible was not opened up to be read by Christians until the 16th century. Martin Luther did this of course.

Yes, I consider Roman Catholics as Christians (by reason of their baptisms, if nothing else). However, I greatly fear they have left some key doctrines of the Christian faith as taught by the Scriptures and have followed the traditions of men.

[Kade]

Our tendencies to persecute ourselves doesn't come from the worshipping of our present religions but from our deeply rooted Puritan culture to do so. Read "The Scarlet Letter." During this time a man could be shackled for forgetting to carry a bible in his right hand when in public.

I recently visited the House of Seven Gables in Salem, MA, and was very moved.

I can recommend reading much more insightful (no sly to Hawthorne) and more relevant comparisons of theocratic societies.

[Theocrat]

atheism by definition is a lack of religion

not a religion

"Atheism" is indeed a religion, and an organized one, at that. They have groups and organizations just as Christians do. They ultimately believe that man is God. Man is the final standard of truth, rationality, morals, justice, science, etc. And where do they believe man gets such an authority? From himself! That is what "atheism" is all about. In truth, there really are no "atheists," of course.

[Kade]

You're not neutral, you religious "atheist." You want to remove God from every public institution, and that is forcing your religious views on other people. Secularism is a religion. Stop spreading your doubt on people.

You are such a caricature that I can't even be moved to offense by you anymore. It's like watching Johnny Knoxville in The Ringer in perpetual slow motion.

[Theocrat]

People should be insecure with their religion. There is not rational reason for it's continued dominance.

In public, we refuse to talk about religion, for whatever reason. It is a mantra to say that it is an issue of privacy. I honor another man's privacy. The idea that politics should be something we do not talk about is a fallacy in a democracy. Now that religion is politics, and our country continues to slide down theocratic rabbithole, we cannot afford to continue to promote religion as a privacy issue. It is not. Not anymore. Until the religious honor the same sacred oath of personal faith, religion is a public issue, and people should probably stand up and proclaim their individual insanities for the world to see and understand, especially in running for public office.

When you have people like James Dobson weighing in on politics and elections in order to sway voters, religion has lost it's right to privacy. This is not negotiable, there is much too much to risk.

The fact that 90% of this country believes in god is negligible. I'm worried more about the people who believe that a god actually cares.

Yes, Kade. There will be blood. ;)

[Kade]

Yes, Kade. There will be blood. ;)

GREAT MOVIE!

C'mon Theocrat, say it with me:

I'm a false prophet and God is a superstition


I drink your Milkshake! (http://idrinkyourmilkshake.com/)

[Kade]

http://jurgenfauth.com/wp-content/uploads/milkshake-250.jpg

[Theocrat]

GREAT MOVIE!

C'mon Theocrat, say it with me:

I'm a false prophet and God is a superstition


I drink your Milkshake! (http://idrinkyourmilkshake.com/)

Not in this movie. I'm the one holding the bowling pin. ;)

[carmaphob]

//

[haaaylee]

most atheists don't take part in religious polls, we tend to stay away from stuff related to religion- i wouldn't say this percentage is true. a good chunk of the youth today are atheists, and i highly doubt they were polled for this.

[Dieseler]

Ride the Chimera.
Our enemies love us more than we love ourselves.

What do you call the Superdome with 5000 Ron Paul supporters locked in it for 2 days?
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A bloodbath!

[Acala]

You're not neutral, you religious "atheist." You want to remove God from every public institution, and that is forcing your religious views on other people. Secularism is a religion. Stop spreading your doubt on people.

Limit government to its proper role and the question of religion will not come up. Problems arise when government gets into the business of telling people how to live their lives and uses public resources to do things it has no business doing.

A strictly limited government allows people of all religions - and no religion - to live together in peace.

[Kade]

Limit government to its proper role and the question of religion will not come up. Problems arise when government gets into the business of telling people how to live their lives and uses public resources to do things it has no business doing.

A strictly limited government allows people of all religions - and no religion - to live together in peace.

Thank you for a good post.

[Theocrat]

Limit government to its proper role and the question of religion will not come up. Problems arise when government gets into the business of telling people how to live their lives and uses public resources to do things it has no business doing.

A strictly limited government allows people of all religions - and no religion - to live together in peace.

The idea of having a limited government is one based on a religious view, and it certainly doesn't come from "Atheism." A government based on "Atheism" will only bring about communistic totalitarianism, where there's survival of the few (the rich and powerful). That's a Darwinian/Malthusian philosophy which naturally flows from "Atheistic" governments, and Hitler and Stalin (among other authoritarians) were its prophets.

[Monolithic]

The idea of having a limited government is one based on a religious view, and it certainly doesn't come from "Atheism." A government based on "Atheism" will only bring about communistic totalitarianism, where there's survival of the few (the rich and powerful). That's a Darwinian/Malthusian philosophy which naturally flows from "Atheistic" governments, and Hitler and Stalin (among other authoritarians) were its prophets.

ah yes sweden, where the irrelgious are the majority, is such a fascist commy state

of course they did pass that spying bill act recently, the right wingers that is, the democratic socialists all voted against it

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

"Atheism" is indeed a religion, and an organized one, at that. They have groups and organizations just as Christians do. They ultimately believe that man is God. Man is the final standard of truth, rationality, morals, justice, science, etc. And where do they believe man gets such an authority? From himself! That is what "atheism" is all about. In truth, there really are no "atheists," of course.

ok, there you lost me.


a·the·ism Audio Help /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1580–90; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ism]


the·ism Audio Help /ˈθiɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[thee-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun

1. the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism).
2. belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1670–80; the- + -ism]

theism and atheism by themselves are not religions but aspects of religions. There are Buddhists that are atheist and Buddhists that are not. Muslims, Jews, and all Christians are theists while Hindus are polytheist.

You, my friend, have taken a term without emotion (atheism) and made it into a "nasty" word. I am an atheist and do not attend any atheist gatherings. Nor do I have a religious practice or ritual. And I do not agree that an atheist is as you characterized, "They ultimately believe that man is God. Man is the final standard of truth, rationality, morals, justice, science, etc. And where do they believe man gets such an authority? From himself!"

However, it is a strange irony that the Christian faith has become the most tyrannical set of beliefs today. It is my understanding that Jesus sought to show the meek their own power. And instead they have forsaken all responsibilty. How is libertarianism and Christianity compatible?

Please realize I'm not attacking you or your character or your God. I am hoping to continue this dialogue without the typical name calling and personal attacks. I am truly interested in hearing more of what you think.

(P.S. My best friend in the whole world (basically my brother) is a Baptist. The point is to have an honest exchange of ideas, not prove our own rightousness.) :)

[Theocrat]

ok, there you lost me.





theism and atheism by themselves are not religions but aspects of religions. There are Buddhists that are atheist and Buddhists that are not. Muslims, Jews, and all Christians are theists while Hindus are polytheist.

You, my friend, have taken a term without emotion (atheism) and made it into a "nasty" word. I am an atheist and do not attend any atheist gatherings. Nor do I have a religious practice or ritual. And I do not agree that an atheist is as you characterized, "They ultimately believe that man is God. Man is the final standard of truth, rationality, morals, justice, science, etc. And where do they believe man gets such an authority? From himself!"

However, it is a strange irony that the Christian faith has become the most tyrannical set of beliefs today. It is my understanding that Jesus sought to show the meek their own power. And instead they have forsaken all responsibilty. How is libertarianism and Christianity compatible?

Please realize I'm not attacking you or your character or your God. I am hoping to continue this dialogue without the typical name calling and personal attacks. I am truly interested in hearing more of what you think.

(P.S. My best friend in the whole world (basically my brother) is a Baptist. The point is to have an honest exchange of ideas, not prove our own rightousness.) :)

"Atheism" is indeed a religious belief, for that very reason. "Atheists" believe THERE IS NO GOD (which is an absolute statement), but they don't know that for sure because no "atheist" possesses absolute knowledge. It always amazes me how "atheists" will state that claim as if it's an absolute fact, but rationally speaking, they can't make such a claim anymore than they can say "There is no gold in China."

Like theists, "atheists" have a set of beliefs by which they live. Their morality is usually utilitarian in nature, their understanding of natural science is Darwinian, and their standards of truth are arbitrary and relative, among other things. These encompass the belief system of "atheism," and it definitely determines how they behave and what they expect from society. "Atheists" are not neutral just because they don't believe in God; they just have a different view of the world without a God.

In short, Christianity and libertarianism are compatible in this sense. Liberty (which assumes moral responsibility and freedom to do what's right based on absolute morals) comes from God. You can read Luke 4:18, Romans 8:21, 2 Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:13, et. al. and see that this is the case. Liberty does not flow from our own personal lusts to do what we want because those lusts are often immoral in nature and can hurt others. This is libertinism, and I fear most people who consider themselves libertarian on these forums are actually libertines. One thing is for sure. Our Founders were definitely not libertines.

For more information about "atheists" being religious, click here (http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto1.html), here (http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto2.html), and here (http://www.americanhumanist.org/3/HumandItsAspirations.php).

[Paulitician]

The idea of having a limited government is one based on a religious view, and it certainly doesn't come from "Atheism." A government based on "Atheism" will only bring about communistic totalitarianism, where there's survival of the few (the rich and powerful). That's a Darwinian/Malthusian philosophy which naturally flows from "Atheistic" governments, and Hitler and Stalin (among other authoritarians) were its prophets.
Have you never heard of Objectivism?

Both limited and total government is based on human thought. Whether one is or the other is justified by an irrational view (i.e. religion) is rather irrelevant, but that is just my opinion.

[Paulitician]

"Atheism" is indeed a religious belief, for that very reason. "Atheists" believe THERE IS NO GOD (which is an absolute statement), but they don't know that for sure because no "atheist" possesses absolute knowledge. It always amazes me how "atheists" will state that claim as if it's an absolute fact, but rationally speaking, they can't make such a claim anymore than they can say "There is no gold in China."

Like theists, "atheists" have a set of beliefs by which they live. Their morality is usually utilitarian in nature, their understanding of natural science is Darwinian, and their standards of truth are arbitrary and relative, among other things. These encompass the belief system of "atheism," and it definitely determines how they behave and what they expect from society. "Atheists" are not neutral just because they don't believe in God; they just have a different view of the world without a God.

In short, Christianity and libertarianism are compatible in this sense. Liberty (which assumes moral responsibility and freedom to do what's right based on absolute morals) comes from God. You can read Luke 4:18, Romans 8:21, 2 Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:13, et. al. and see that this is the case. Liberty does not flow from our own personal lusts to do what we want because those lusts are often immoral in nature and can hurt others. This is libertinism, and I fear most people who consider themselves libertarian on these forums are actually libertines. One thing is for sure. Our Founders were definitely not libertines.

For more information about "atheists" being religious, click here (http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto1.html), here (http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto2.html), and here (http://www.americanhumanist.org/3/HumandItsAspirations.php).
Being an atheist does not require that one believe in anything. Atheism is the absence of belief (absence of the belief in "god" specifically). Do you believe there are undetectable amusement parks on Jupiter? Why should you, right? Ergo, why should I believe an equally silly, meaningless and non-evident concept such as "god"? Atheists are individuals like everyone else. Quit thinking like a collectivist. Or is collectivism totally consistent with a philosophy of limited government which you purport religious views have a monopoly on?

[Theocrat]

Have you never heard of Objectivism?

Both limited and total government is based on human thought. Whether one is or the other is justified by an irrational view (i.e. religion) is rather irrelevant, but that is just my opinion.

America wasn't formed on the principles of Objectivism. That philosophy didn't come about until the 20th Century.

Human thought is not autonomous. For instance, there is some human thought which is irrational and immoral (like "atheism"). However, human thought itself needs to be judged by an absolute standard in order to make judgments such as what's logical thought, what's moral thought, what's objective thought, etc. Only God, as the precondition for such a determinant standard, can allow for such judgments of human thought to ensure what is right thought.

[driller80545]

America wasn't formed on the principles of Objectivism. That philosophy didn't come about until the 20th Century.

Human thought is not autonomous. For instance, there is some human thought which is irrational and immoral (like "atheism"). However, human thought itself needs to be judged by an absolute standard in order to make judgments such as what's logical thought, what's moral thought, what's objective thought, etc. Only God, as the precondition for such a determinant standard, can allow for such judgments of human thought to ensure what is right thought.

This hypothesis is not objective, therefore it is suspect at best. Absolute standards are not healthy in a country that encourages freedom of individuallity. It makes god appear dictatorial. Is this the case?

[Paulitician]

America wasn't formed on the principles of Objectivism.
Ok, I never said it was.


That philosophy didn't come about until the 20th Century.
Ok.


Human thought is not autonomous. For instance, there is some human thought which is irrational and immoral (like "atheism"). However, human thought itself needs to be judged by an absolute standard in order to make judgments such as what's logical thought, what's moral thought, what's objective thought, etc. Only God, as the precondition for such a determinant standard, can allow for such judgments of human thought to ensure what is right thought.
Which Objectivism ties to do.

Do you have an evidence or logical proof for such objective standard, which you call God?

No. "God" has never been proven logically or empirically. It is a meaningless concept, or a floating abstraction as Objectivist would like to say.

[Kade]

Ok, I never said it did.


Ok.


Which Objectivism ties to do.

Do you have an evidence or logical proof for such objective standard, which you call God?

No. "God" has never been proven logically or empirically. It is a meaningless concept, or a floating abstraction as Objectivist would like to say.

I'm guessing you've kept away from the religiously charged threads, good for you.

Theocrat is a truly demented cat. You don't want to debate with him, it is like arguing with a garbage disposal.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

"Atheism" is indeed a religious belief, for that very reason. "Atheists" believe THERE IS NO GOD (which is an absolute statement), but they don't know that for sure because no "atheist" possesses absolute knowledge. It always amazes me how "atheists" will state that claim as if it's an absolute fact, but rationally speaking, they can't make such a claim anymore than they can say "There is no gold in China."

Like theists, "atheists" have a set of beliefs by which they live. Their morality is usually utilitarian in nature, their understanding of natural science is Darwinian, and their standards of truth are arbitrary and relative, among other things. These encompass the belief system of "atheism," and it definitely determines how they behave and what they expect from society. "Atheists" are not neutral just because they don't believe in God; they just have a different view of the world without a God.

In short, Christianity and libertarianism are compatible in this sense. Liberty (which assumes moral responsibility and freedom to do what's right based on absolute morals) comes from God. You can read Luke 4:18, Romans 8:21, 2 Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:13, et. al. and see that this is the case. Liberty does not flow from our own personal lusts to do what we want because those lusts are often immoral in nature and can hurt others. This is libertinism, and I fear most people who consider themselves libertarian on these forums are actually libertines. One thing is for sure. Our Founders were definitely not libertines.

For more information about "atheists" being religious, click here (http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto1.html), here (http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto2.html), and here (http://www.americanhumanist.org/3/HumandItsAspirations.php).

Do Christians not state that there is a God as if it was an absolute fact?


Like theists, "atheists" have a set of beliefs by which they live.

You're right there, but these beliefs are never identical from one atheist to the next. Atheist 'X' can choose to be a God hater, while atheist 'Y' can choose to not even engage in conversation about something as seemingly rediculous as a God, atheit 'Z' can be a Buddhist and understand that the myth of an all knowing personal God is a path to better understanding ourselves. There are so many things that can fall under the word "Atheist", but you seem intent on presenting it as one specific religion like Christianity. It is not. Some of the most loving people I've ever met are atheists. Some of the most hateful are Christians. (and vice versa obviously).

Long before Christianity and monotheism came along, human beings already knew about morality. And in fact, depending on where you are raised, morallity is a very subjective idea. In the Congo, it is morally acceptable for a military soldier to rape a woman. Is it morally acceptable in the States, of course not. In the U.S. it is morally acceptable for women to be on equal footing with men, but in some places in the Middle East it is not. In the mind of some in the Middle east it is morally acceptable to strap on a bomb and kill in the name of God. Not so much here. To a buddhist monk the word immoral and moral are simply opposing sides of the same coin. A coin that he/she has thrown off in favor of enlightenment.

[Theocrat]

This hypothesis is not objective, therefore it is suspect at best. Absolute standards are not healthy in a country that encourages freedom of individuallity. It makes god appear dictatorial. Is this the case?

What standards are necessary to establish "freedom of individuality?" Are these standards absolute? If they are, then you refute yourself by saying absolute standards aren't healthy. If they are not absolute, then your hypothesis above is not objective, but suspect, at best.

God is the sovereign Ruler of the universe. He determines what's right and wrong (which is necessary to establish liberty), not sinful men.

[Paulitician]

God is the sovereign Ruler of the universe.
How do you "know" this, or why do you think so?


He determines what's right and wrong (which is necessary to establish liberty), not sinful men.
Proof?

[driller80545]

What standards are necessary to establish "freedom of individuality?" Are these standards absolute? If they are, then you refute yourself by saying absolute standards aren't healthy. If they are not absolute, then your hypothesis above is not objective, but suspect, at best.

God is the sovereign Ruler of the universe. He determines what's right and wrong (which is necessary to establish liberty), not sinful men.

"Are these standards absolute?" Absolutely not. Absolute individual liberty would be an oxymoron, would it not?

[yongrel]

http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/wp-content/photos/Calvin_Hobbes_math_atheist.jpg

[Paulitician]

I'm guessing you've kept away from the religiously charged threads, good for you.
I have, they're pretty worthless. I don't care if a person believes in god or not, it means little to me, but when people make factually incorrect statements like atheism itself is a religion, or that atheists are automatically commies or something, I must always try to correct that.


Theocrat is a truly demented cat. You don't want to debate with him, it is like arguing with a garbage disposal.
Sounds like any other fundamentalist religious person. I have yet to ever find anyone give me either logical or empirical proof of their god.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

God is the sovereign Ruler of the universe. He determines what's right and wrong (which is necessary to establish liberty), not sinful men.

By giving someone two choices you restrict their free will. This is about control. You tell someone, "Door "A" will result in this and door "B" will result in this, and there are no exceptions to this rule.

Truly, Jesus himself defied such constructs of mental control.


Mark 1:40

40Then a leper[s] came to Jesus[t] and began pleading with him. He fell on his knees and said to him, “If you want to, you can make me clean.”1

41Moved with compassion, Jesus[u] reached out his hand, touched him, and said to him, “I do want to. Be made clean!” 42Instantly the leprosy left him, and he was clean.

43Then Jesus[v] sternly warned him and encouraged him to go at once, 44saying to him, “Be sure that you don't tell anyone. Instead, go and show yourself to the priest, and then offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded as proof to the authorities.”[w] 45But when the man[x] left, he began to proclaim it freely. He spread the news so widely that Jesus[y] could no longer enter a town openly, but had to stay out in deserted places. Still, people[z] kept coming to him from everywhere.


It was against Levitical law to for this leper to approach Jesus. Because Jesus broke that law (chose Door "B") he could no longer "enter a town openly". Did this stop him though? Now, the Pentateuch is supposed to literally be God's word, but Jesus defied it. And yet despite that (or possibly because of it) he now sits at the right hand of God in Heaven.

To make a long point short, right and wrong are subjective. Jesus knew this, modern day Christians do not seem to.

[Paulitician]

http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/wp-content/photos/Calvin_Hobbes_math_atheist.jpg
Is this supposed to make a point?

Because to be serious here, I'm pretty sure math isn't supernatural, but rather more a of logical, conceptual system humans created for quanitification and such.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

Is this supposed to make a point?

Because to be serious here, I'm pretty sure math isn't supernatural, but rather more a of logical, conceptual system humans created for quanitification.

if there was a point you missed it.

[Kade]

I have, they're pretty worthless. I don't care if a person believes in god or not, it means little to me, but when people make factually incorrect statements like atheism itself is a religion, or that atheists are automatically commies or something, I must always try to correct that.


Sounds like any other fundamentalist religious person. I have yet to ever find anyone give me either logical or empirical proof of their god.

You sound like me. What you just said is actually what goes on in the religious threads... many incorrect statements, and the attempt to explain them.. that is why we have those threads... it isn't against religion, it is against the dominating insanity. Theocrat is one of the champions.

[yongrel]

Is this supposed to make a point?

Because to be serious here, I'm pretty sure math isn't supernatural, but rather more a of logical, conceptual system humans created for quanitification and such.

The point is that arguments like this are composed largely of semantics, and can therefore be counted on to be devoid of any substance or merit.

This quibble has been hashed and rehashed on this board, to the point where everyone knows what everyone else is going to say before they say it. Sophocles knows what Theocrat is going to say, and Theocrat knows what Kade is going to say, and everyone knows that I will post a silly picture.

Semantics and semantics alone anymore.

In the comic, Calvin has perverted the nature of mathematics to suit his own purposes by making a wildly complicated semantic argument. By doing so, he has not at all represented reality, but has instead made an argument that exists for argument's sake.

That was the point of me posting that comic.

[Hiki]

Proof?

The Bible daaaaaawg!!!

[Kade]

The point is that arguments like this are composed largely of semantics, and can therefore be counted on to be devoid of any substance or merit.

This quibble has been hashed and rehashed on this board, to the point where everyone knows what everyone else is going to say before they say it. Sophocles knows what Theocrat is going to say, and Theocrat knows what Kade is going to say, and everyone knows that I will post a silly picture.

Semantics and semantics alone anymore.

In the comic, Calvin has perverted the nature of mathematics to suit his own purposes by making a wildly complicated semantic argument. By doing so, he has not at all represented reality, but has instead made an argument that exists for argument's sake.

That was the point of me posting that comic.

**Excellence in Posting Award**

[Charles Wilson]

I am a Christian. As someone who has experienced regeneration and know the truth, I do not debate or argue with atheists -- their fate is sealed for the most part so why bother.

Having said that, I totally believe in the First Amendment that provide freedom of religion and freedom "from" religion. God does not want to force any particular belief on any of us, otherwise He would not have given us a choice.

BTW: I also believe -- based on Holy Scripture -- that some folks that are not Christians will go to Heaven. Also, some folks that are Christian in name only will not make it into Heaven. We will all stand before Jesus Christ at the White Throne Judgment. The Final Judgment will be a rude awakening for many. I can only encourage you to get your life right with God while you can; there will be no second chance.

[kombayn]

I am a Christian. As someone who has experienced regeneration and know the truth, I do not debate or argue with atheists -- their fate is sealed for the most part so why bother.

Having said that, I totally believe in the First Amendment that provide freedom of religion and freedom "from" religion. God does not want to force any particular belief on any of us, otherwise He would not have given us a choice.

BTW: I also believe -- based on Holy Scripture -- that some folks that are not Christians will go to Heaven. Also, some folks that are Christian in name only will not make it into Heaven. We will all stand before Jesus Christ at the White Throne Judgment. The Final Judgment will be a rude awakening for many. I can only encourage you to get your life right with God while you can; there will be no second chance.

I am an absurdest. As a person who's lived in 4 countries, 8 states and experienced a life from a religious-sect to big cities and open attitudes, I know the truth. I do not debate or argue with people of "belief". Their mind is completely sealed from being broken to rational expressive choice, so why bother? The same can be said for the atheist-sect of the world.

Having said that, I a firm believer of the United States Constitution, it has what made peaceful living in this great country, so wonderful. I would hope something considered to be "God" would not judge anyone for the choices they make, if that said being created us to be equal then that said being should be able to accept fact that not everyone do good-deeds.

BTW: I do not believe the holy scripture. I believe it is a formation of different multiple cults who believe such things as the "Day of Judgment" and that a God or that being's son, Jesus Christ are going to condemn us to damnation... It's the whole reason religion loses credibility. I want to know how many actually associate with religion. You want to believe in God and use a source of "rules" to live your life peacefully, I'm all for that. But when religion continues to demonstrate fear-mongering, it's one of the most hypocritical things I can see on the planet.

I would hope if the Rapture actually happened and I faced my judgment, my last words would be... "Alright you finally proved you exist, I believe." Because that's the only way I would. If God or Jesus don't show their face along with any other religious god... It's not real. It's a story of ethics that was somehow twisted upon them by fragile young human-species minds that were no where near developed like the minds of a 3 year old child born today.

Religion has been hi-jacked and used as mind pollution to instill fear into people and to give them some ray of hope that after death, their ego will still be intact. That's what is really all about, that after death, your ego disappears and the brain no longer functions which in essence means you no longer exist. People have a very hard-time comprehending that sort of fate, so like a conspiracy-theorist they come up with a "theory" to help ease the trauma of knowing your true fate. That's why Buddha was so dope, he came to the understanding that after his death even though he decays, he becomes one with the universe again. :cool:

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

I am an absurdest. As a person who's lived in 4 countries, 8 states and experienced a life from a religious-sect to big cities and open attitudes, I know the truth. I do not debate or argue with people of "belief". Their mind is completely sealed from being broken to rational expressive choice, so why bother? The same can be said for the atheist-sect of the world.

Having said that, I a firm believer of the United States Constitution, it has what made peaceful living in this great country, so wonderful. I would hope something considered to be "God" would not judge anyone for the choices they make, if that said being created us to be equal then that said being should be able to accept fact that not everyone do good-deeds.

BTW: I do not believe the holy scripture. I believe it is a formation of different multiple cults who believe such things as the "Day of Judgment" and that a God or that being's son, Jesus Christ are going to condemn us to damnation... It's the whole reason religion loses credibility. I want to know how many actually associate with religion. You want to believe in God and use a source of "rules" to live your life peacefully, I'm all for that. But when religion continues to demonstrate fear-mongering, it's one of the most hypocritical things I can see on the planet.

I would hope if the Rapture actually happened and I faced my judgment, my last words would be... "Alright you finally proved you exist, I believe." Because that's the only way I would. If God or Jesus don't show their face along with any other religious god... It's not real. It's a story of ethics that was somehow twisted upon them by fragile young human-species minds that were no where near developed like the minds of a 3 year old child born today.

Religion has been hi-jacked and used as mind pollution to instill fear into people and to give them some ray of hope that after death, their ego will still be intact. That's what is really all about, that after death, your ego disappears and the brain no longer functions which in essence means you no longer exist. People have a very hard-time comprehending that sort of fate, so like a conspiracy-theorist they come up with a "theory" to help ease the trauma of knowing your true fate. That's why Buddha was so dope, he came to the understanding that after his death even though he decays, he becomes one with the universe again. :cool:

damn....

i need that on a bumper sticker

[jkm1864]

Yeah right I don't believe this one bit. I would say 20 % believes in God and the rests are heathens that worship their sexual organs. Do You expect me to believe this when over 50 million babies have been murdered by their own mothers in this God foresaken country. These people need to reevaluate their view on God because they just might be worshiping the devil. Oh another point just because You believe in God doesn't mean squat because You still don't get the cookie for being good.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Yeah right I don't believe this one bit. I would say 20 % believes in God and the rests are heathens that worship their sexual organs. Do You expect me to believe this when over 50 million babies have been murdered by their own mothers in this God foresaken country. These people need to reevaluate their view on God because they just might be worshiping the devil. Oh another point just because You believe in God doesn't mean squat because You still don't get the cookie for being good.

So I worship pussy? Is that what you're insinuating?

[Charles Wilson]

I am an absurdest. As a person who's lived in 4 countries, 8 states and experienced a life from a religious-sect to big cities and open attitudes, I know the truth. I do not debate or argue with people of "belief". Their mind is completely sealed from being broken to rational expressive choice, so why bother? The same can be said for the atheist-sect of the world.

Having said that, I a firm believer of the United States Constitution, it has what made peaceful living in this great country, so wonderful. I would hope something considered to be "God" would not judge anyone for the choices they make, if that said being created us to be equal then that said being should be able to accept fact that not everyone do good-deeds.

BTW: I do not believe the holy scripture. I believe it is a formation of different multiple cults who believe such things as the "Day of Judgment" and that a God or that being's son, Jesus Christ are going to condemn us to damnation... It's the whole reason religion loses credibility. I want to know how many actually associate with religion. You want to believe in God and use a source of "rules" to live your life peacefully, I'm all for that. But when religion continues to demonstrate fear-mongering, it's one of the most hypocritical things I can see on the planet.

I would hope if the Rapture actually happened and I faced my judgment, my last words would be... "Alright you finally proved you exist, I believe." Because that's the only way I would. If God or Jesus don't show their face along with any other religious god... It's not real. It's a story of ethics that was somehow twisted upon them by fragile young human-species minds that were no where near developed like the minds of a 3 year old child born today.

Religion has been hi-jacked and used as mind pollution to instill fear into people and to give them some ray of hope that after death, their ego will still be intact. That's what is really all about, that after death, your ego disappears and the brain no longer functions which in essence means you no longer exist. People have a very hard-time comprehending that sort of fate, so like a conspiracy-theorist they come up with a "theory" to help ease the trauma of knowing your true fate. That's why Buddha was so dope, he came to the understanding that after his death even though he decays, he becomes one with the universe again. :cool:

I believe we have some common ground whereas we both need to fight for the First Amendment of the Constitution. I do not want to impose my belief in God and the Holy Scriptures on you or anyone else. By the same token, I do not want anyone denying me the right to my beliefs.

[jondisx]

So I worship pussy? Is that what you're insinuating?
i think he/she meant penis for you.

[Theocrat]

I am a Christian. As someone who has experienced regeneration and know the truth, I do not debate or argue with atheists -- their fate is sealed for the most part so why bother.

Having said that, I totally believe in the First Amendment that provide freedom of religion and freedom "from" religion. God does not want to force any particular belief on any of us, otherwise He would not have given us a choice.

BTW: I also believe -- based on Holy Scripture -- that some folks that are not Christians will go to Heaven. Also, some folks that are Christian in name only will not make it into Heaven. We will all stand before Jesus Christ at the White Throne Judgment. The Final Judgment will be a rude awakening for many. I can only encourage you to get your life right with God while you can; there will be no second chance.

Charles, don't fall into the secularists' trap that there is a such thing as "religious neutrality." There is no such thing. The "atheists" in this country are just as religious as us Christians, and they are just as eager to remove God from government as we are in placing Him into it. Organizations such as the communistic ACLU are increasingly forcing "atheistic" beliefs and behaviors upon citizens whenever they seek to remove remove prayer from schools, Bible reading from classrooms, the Ten Commandments from government buildings, and other such actions. They want to push Christian beliefs back inside the four walls of a church or home or between your two ears. Meanwhile, they can have the freedom to inject their humanistic values (abortion, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, skepticism, etc.) in government, in schools, in the media, in science, and on society as a whole, while we Christians silently worship our God in fear.

I'm sorry, but I will not allow that to happen as a Christian, and neither should you. Our Christian faith does not require us to be silent about our beliefs. We are called to spread God's truth to all creatures and in all venues of society, whether it's politics/government, natural science, education, or whatever else. Our nation's history is replete with Christian individuals, themes, ideas, monuments, writings, offices/positions, and other things which are antithetical to any "atheistic" interpretation of our country's heritage. Don't be fooled by these secular revisionists into thinking that we Christians want to spread our beliefs onto people, and the "atheists" don't. That is simply a lie. The First Amendment (which was written by a Christian, Fisher Ames) guarantees that we will have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion (which is what the secularists want). The more we buy into the lie that religion shouldn't be in politics, the more rights we'll lose as Christians to spread the Gospel to the public (as God commands us to), and the more the humanists will inculcate their religion of doubt and hatred for God upon the masses.

[Ozwest]

Sorry.

I'm an Atheist.

Please don't put words into my mouth.

[sophocles07]

Organizations such as the communistic ACLU are increasingly forcing "atheistic" beliefs and behaviors upon citizens whenever they seek to remove remove prayer from schools, Bible reading from classrooms, the Ten Commandments from government buildings, and other such actions.

http://www.docleaf.com/critique/Apr2308/cry.jpg

[Ozwest]

I respect your right to worship.

Respect my liberties.

[Ozwest]

I know the Ten Commandments by heart.

I choose to be an atheist.

[Theocrat]

I respect your right to worship.

Respect my liberties.

You have no liberties without God. Otherwise, you're just a libertine (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertine).

[Ozwest]

You have no liberties without God. Otherwise, you're just a libertine (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertine).

I hate outside authority.

I will not be chastised.

[Theocrat]

I hate outside authority.

I will not be chastised.

Your whole existence is predicated on outside authority. Chastisement is inescapable, and it will come either by God's revelation or the State's indoctrination.

[Ozwest]

Your whole existence is predicated on outside authority. Chastisement is inescapable, and it will come either by God's revelation or the State's indoctrination.

Your whole existence is predicated on outside authority.

I choose to be self-reliant.

[Theocrat]

Your whole existence is predicated on outside authority.

I choose to be self-reliant.

Yeah, because your self-reliance was such an important factor in your being born. Your parents had absolutely nothing to do with it... :rolleyes:

[sophocles07]

Your whole existence is predicated on outside authority. Chastisement is inescapable, and it will come either by God's revelation or the State's indoctrination.

It's strange that your imagination has invented a personage whose authority manifests itself in the same way as the State's indoctrination, or at least is comparable as an agent of "chastisement".

You are truly a sick individual.

[Ozwest]

Yeah, because your self-reliance was such an important factor in your being born. Your parents had absolutely nothing to do with it... :rolleyes:

What the fuck?

[sophocles07]

Yeah, because your self-reliance was such an important factor in your being born. Your parents had absolutely nothing to do with it...

So because his origin began with two people fucking then that necessitates the role of a God who chastises his created children?

Jesus...

[Ozwest]

Yeah, because your self-reliance was such an important factor in your being born. Your parents had absolutely nothing to do with it... :rolleyes:

Not that it's any of your business. But mine was a virgin birth. And my Parents are Christian.

I prefer to treat people equally.
Division of people causes conflict and war.

[Theocrat]

It's strange that your imagination has invented a personage whose authority manifests itself in the same way as the State's indoctrination, or at least is comparable as an agent of "chastisement".

You are truly a sick individual.

I was basically saying that correction or discipline will come either from God or the government. Actually, in some cases, it may come from both. In any case, punishment is inescapable, whether it's in this life or the next.


So because his origin began with two people fucking then that necessitates the role of a God who chastises his created children?

Jesus...

No, my point is that he can't make a claim to be totally self-reliant because his "self" is reliant upon others' authority (his parents)--their personal choice to procreate.

Besides, the necessity for God to chastise His children is based on love and righteousness. You probably wouldn't know anything about that, sophocles07. ;)

[sophocles07]

I was basically saying that correction or discipline will come either from God or the government. Actually, in some cases, it may come from both. In any case, punishment is inescapable, whether it's in this life or the next.

Sorry. I reject both options.


No, my point is that he can't make a claim to be totally self-reliant because his "self" is reliant upon others' authority (his parents)--their personal choice to procreate.

Limited self-reliance then. The fact that he has parents does not result in "everyone must be punished" by outside authorities.


Besides, the necessity for God to chastise His children is based on love and righteousness. You probably wouldn't know anything about that, sophocles07.

Right. Tell it to the 6,000,000 Jews or the 1,000,000 Iraqis now dead. I'm sure they'd love to hear how it was about "love and righteousness."

[Ozwest]

Theocrat,

Believe me, I'm self-reliant.

Be a Christian. Enjoy!

[Theocrat]

Sorry. I reject both options.

Like I said, rejection of reproof is the folly of fools. You just proved my point.


Limited self-reliance then. The fact that he has parents does not result in "everyone must be punished" by outside authorities.

Of course it does. As a child of his parents, Ozwest is subject to their authority and discipline for improper behavior (as long as he's living in their household). As citizens of the United States, we are subject to sanctions by the authority of our government when we improperly behave, too. Of course, there are jurisdictional bounds that limit our government's discipline, but that's beside my point. Self-reliance does not mean a person is autonomous, outside any authority or above any need for correction or reproof.


Right. Tell it to the 6,000,000 Jews or the 1,000,000 Iraqis now dead. I'm sure they'd love to hear how it was about "love and righteousness."

You're probably going to hate me for saying this, but that wasn't God's chastisement. It was His sovereign wrath and justice upon those people. Of course, that won't make any sense to you if you fail to understand the doctrine of God's sovereignty. It's a very deep subject, indeed.

[Ozwest]

Theocrat,

I'm going to give you a pass. For now.

Do not treat my family with dis-respect again.

I have 26 relations in America, and my younger brother is almost as big as I am.

Don't push it. Kingdom Come.

[Theocrat]

Theocrat,

I'm going to give you a pass. For now.

Do not treat my family with dis-respect again.

I have 26 relations in America, and my younger brother is almost as big as I am.

Don't push it. Kingdom Come.

How have I disrespected your family, Ozwest?

[Ozwest]

Theocrat, It's cool.

But...

"As a child of his parents, Ozwest is subject to their authority and discipline for improper behaviour."

Oversteps the line.

[Theocrat]

Theocrat, It's cool.

But...

"As a child of his parents, Ozwest is subject to their authority and discipline for improper behaviour."

Oversteps the line.

That's not disrespect. That's the truth, my friend. You believe in your "self-reliance" a little too much. How self-reliant were you as a newborn baby? A toddler? A teenager?

[Ozwest]

That's not disrespect. That's the truth, my friend. You believe in your "self-reliance" a little too much. How self-reliant were you as a newborn baby? A toddler? A teenager?

In the general context.
I'll get stuck in. I'm Irish about my family.

Good on ya for getting stuck in.

How self-reliant were you as a toddler?

I'm a millionaire. I have a crook back to prove it.

I love my Christian parents.

I'm an atheist. So fucking what?

[sophocles07]

Like I said, rejection of reproof is the folly of fools. You just proved my point.

Cool.


Self-reliance does not mean a person is autonomous, outside any authority or above any need for correction or reproof.

Then what the fuck are you arguing about?


You're probably going to hate me for saying this, but that wasn't God's chastisement. It was His sovereign wrath and justice upon those people. Of course, that won't make any sense to you if you fail to understand the doctrine of God's sovereignty. It's a very deep subject, indeed.

Wow.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

What I'd like to know is this:

Your justification for having faith is? There is no faith without justification!

[Theocrat]

What I'd like to know is this:

Your justification for having faith is? There is no faith without justification!

Faith is inherent in all human beings. The justification for my faith in God is based on three realms of evidence: God's specific revelation (the Bible), God's creation (the universe), and God's general revelation (human conscience).

You have faith in the nonexistence of God. What is the justification of your faith?

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Faith is inherent in all human beings. The justification for my faith in God is based on three realms of evidence: God's specific revelation (the Bible), God's creation (the universe), and God's general revelation (human conscience).

You have faith in the nonexistence of God. What is the justification of your faith?

The lack of evidence. You know, real evidence.

[Theocrat]

The lack of evidence. You know, real evidence.

As I've mentioned many times before, you just don't like the evidence or agree with what the evidence suggests. Discrediting the evidence just because it doesn't suit you or satisfy you does not prove your affirmation that there is no God. God is true whether you believe the evidence or not, and God exists from the impossibility of the contrary. It won't do you any good to complain against the evidence for God not being sufficient for you. That's subjective. There's a real difference between proof and persuasion.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

As I've mentioned many times before, you just don't like the evidence or agree with the evidence suggests. Discrediting the evidence just because it doesn't suit you or satisfy you does not prove your affirmation that there is no God. God is true whether you believe the evidence or not, and God exists from the impossibility of the contrary. It won't do you any good to complain against the evidence for God not being sufficient for you. That's subjective. There's a real difference between proof and persuasion.

No, evidence is evidence. You just don't have any. You don't have any factual evidence that helps to establish that god does indeed exist. Where's the PROOF? You're just going on your own interpretation here. The bibles are just books, nothing more, nothing less.

[Theocrat]

No, evidence is evidence. You just don't have any. You don't have any factual evidence that helps to establish that god does indeed exist. Where's the PROOF? You're just going on your own interpretation here. The bibles are just books, nothing more, nothing less.

I've given you proof many times for the Christian God, Joe. You're just not persuaded of its validity. I can't force you to be persuaded. That is God's job. All I can do is present the evidence, but as a created being, you already believe in the existence of God. It's just that you suppress the truth of it in your conscience. Whenever you make appeals to morals, assume the uniformity of nature in the natural sciences, use laws of logic, and a host of other acts, you vindicate that you believe in God, all the while denying Him by rationalizing Him away by your own sinful reasoning or simply ignoring the obvious evidences presented to you. End of story.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

you know i was having an interesting conversation and then you guys just digress into the same old crap. doesn't that get old?

theocrat believes in God. Joseph doesn't.

WHO CARES!?

how about trying to find common ground with one another?

[Theocrat]

you know i was having an interesting conversation and then you guys just digress into the same old crap. doesn't that get old?

theocrat believes in God. Joseph doesn't.

WHO CARES!?

how about trying to find common ground with one another?

We do have common ground. We both believe that Congressman Paul is the best choice for President.

Our debating is just a consequence of liberty and freedom of expression. We can share our differing views with one another and agree to disagree. There is nothing wrong with arguing the existence of God. Those who complain that it causes division are themselves guilty of that division for their lack of longsuffering and respect for the discussion of dissenting views, in my opinion.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I've given you proof many times for the Christian God, Joe. You're just not persuaded of its validity. I can't force you to be persuaded. That is God's job. All I can do is present the evidence, but as a created being, you already believe in the existence of God. It's just that you suppress the truth of it in your conscience. Whenever you make appeals to morals, assume the uniformity of nature in the natural sciences, use laws of logic, and a host of other acts, you vindicate that you believe in God, all the while denying Him by rationalizing Him away by your own sinful reasoning or simply ignoring the obvious evidences presented to you. End of story.

ok. How can I be persuaded if what you put forward is not very convincing? I want to be OVERWHELMED!

[Ozwest]

I'm getting a bit sleepy...

Tell me the one about T-Rex getting on the Ark, and how the world is 6000 years old.

Then the one about Papa, Mama, and baby bear...

[Charles Wilson]

Charles, don't fall into the secularists' trap that there is a such thing as "religious neutrality." There is no such thing. The "atheists" in this country are just as religious as us Christians, and they are just as eager to remove God from government as we are in placing Him into it. Organizations such as the communistic ACLU are increasingly forcing "atheistic" beliefs and behaviors upon citizens whenever they seek to remove remove prayer from schools, Bible reading from classrooms, the Ten Commandments from government buildings, and other such actions. They want to push Christian beliefs back inside the four walls of a church or home or between your two ears. Meanwhile, they can have the freedom to inject their humanistic values (abortion, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, skepticism, etc.) in government, in schools, in the media, in science, and on society as a whole, while we Christians silently worship our God in fear.

I'm sorry, but I will not allow that to happen as a Christian, and neither should you. Our Christian faith does not require us to be silent about our beliefs. We are called to spread God's truth to all creatures and in all venues of society, whether it's politics/government, natural science, education, or whatever else. Our nation's history is replete with Christian individuals, themes, ideas, monuments, writings, offices/positions, and other things which are antithetical to any "atheistic" interpretation of our country's heritage. Don't be fooled by these secular revisionists into thinking that we Christians want to spread our beliefs onto people, and the "atheists" don't. That is simply a lie. The First Amendment (which was written by a Christian, Fisher Ames) guarantees that we will have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion (which is what the secularists want). The more we buy into the lie that religion shouldn't be in politics, the more rights we'll lose as Christians to spread the Gospel to the public (as God commands us to), and the more the humanists will inculcate their religion of doubt and hatred for God upon the masses.

Theocrat I assume from your post, you have experienced Regeneration (born again) and have the Holy Spirit guiding your thoughts. For those who have not experienced Regeneration (one time act of God in our lives), it is all folly to them.

As you know, as born again Christians, it is our responsibility to spread the Word. However once we have done that we should shake the dust off of our shoes and move on -- we have done our job, the Holy Spirit will take it from there. Some will be saved and some will not.

We should all fight together for the Constitution and the First Amendment. I do not want to live in a Godless society but I do not want to live in a Theocracy either. The Constitution protects us from both.

Best regards

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Why can't you overwhelm me? gheeze

[rajibo]

Believe nothing merely because you have been told it.

Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher.

But whatever, after due examination and analysis,

you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings -

that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide

-Buddha
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/80/231651817_f57ab009b3.jpg?v=0

[Charles Wilson]

Why can't you overwhelm me? gheeze

For starters, I do not want to overwhelm you. I want to help you protect your right to believe what ever you want to believe. Secondly, I want you to fight to protect my right to my beliefs:)

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Believe nothing merely because you have been told it.

Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher.

But whatever, after due examination and analysis,

you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings -

that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide

-Buddha
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/80/231651817_f57ab009b3.jpg?v=0

You're a buddhist? Was he a philosopher? That's the religion that tells you not to step on grass and bugs, right? What's that about?

[rajibo]

You're a buddhist? Was he a philosopher? That's the religion that tells you not to step on grass and bugs, right? What's that about?

I wouldn't officially call myself a Buddhist (especially since I'm half-lit on Sam Adams Brown Ale right now), but it's the only religion that makes any sense to me. It's actually more of a philosophy.

Buddha was just a guy who found enlightenment through meditation and decided to spend the rest of his life teaching how to do it to those who wanted to listen. He was like "Don't take my word for it though, try it for yourself...or don't."

Grass and bugs don't enter into it all that much, but a compassion for all life may follow, which may lead you to not want to hurt bugs.

Personally, I'm a carnivore that will smush any bug that invades my personal space. I'm not a very good Buddhist.

Regardless, it pisses me off when somebody with no experiential or quantifiable proof tells me that there is a God and this IS the way he thinks (and what he has in store for me when I die), or there is NOT a God and you're a fool for even suggesting the possibility.

All I know is my brain hurts any time I even attempt to think of the vastness of the universe or where it all came from. There's most likely something bigger and smarter than us out there, but I'll probably never understand it. If people feel better by making up stories about the reality of it all, that's okay. That doesn't mean it's true.

This post is sponsored by the Samuel Adams Brewmaster's Collection.:cool:

[sophocles07]

Faith is inherent in all human beings.

One could substitute “that irrationality found in babies and young children” for “faith” and be less obscure.


The justification for my faith in God is based on three realms of evidence: God's specific revelation (the Bible), God's creation (the universe), and God's general revelation (human conscience).

HAHAHHAHA, oh you suck.


You have faith in the nonexistence of God. What is the justification of your faith?

http://www.solarnavigator.net/biology/biology_images/human_brain_major_internal_parts.jpg