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Matt Collins
06-18-2008, 04:05 PM
Does anyone know how I can file a tax return and still have my 5th Amendment protection?

danberkeley
06-18-2008, 04:09 PM
You cant

newyearsrevolution08
06-18-2008, 04:10 PM
what about a business tax return instead of personal?

Matt Collins
06-18-2008, 04:15 PM
what about a business tax return instead of personal?I am simply talking about my personal income tax return

Danke
06-18-2008, 04:24 PM
I am simply talking about my personal income tax return


What are you worried about? Self incrimination in a criminal case?

Matt Collins
06-18-2008, 04:27 PM
What are you worried about? Self incrimination in a criminal case?I am worried about the right to NOT incriminate myself.

Anything put on a tax form and submitted can be used against me in a court of law. But the 5th Amendment says that the government cannot compel me to testify against myself.

Catch 22?

Danke
06-18-2008, 04:31 PM
I am worried about the right to NOT incriminate myself.

Anything put on a tax form and submitted can be used against me in a court of law. But the 5th Amendment says that the government cannot compel me to testify against myself.

Catch 22?

Then don't voluntarily engage in taxable activities.

Matt Collins
06-18-2008, 04:33 PM
Then don't voluntarily engage in taxable activities.Like earning income? :rolleyes:

John E
06-18-2008, 04:34 PM
Interesting question...

danberkeley
06-18-2008, 04:37 PM
Like earning income? :rolleyes:

Yes! Cant you see that we are a democratic society and, therefore, we should not be productive?... i mean...

Acala
06-18-2008, 04:37 PM
Figure out how much tax you owe and send in a check for that amount with a note saying that is to cover your income tax liability for the year. That way you can't be prosecuted for non-payment (assuming you paid the total amount due) and the 5th amendment prevents you from being prosecuted for failure to file a return.

But take this advice with a grain of salt. Consult a tax lawyer.

danberkeley
06-18-2008, 04:40 PM
Figure out how much tax you owe and send in a check for that amount with a note saying that is to cover your income tax liability for the year. That way you can't be prosecuted for non-payment (assuming you paid the total amount due) and the 5th amendment prevents you from being prosecuted for failure to file a return.

But take this advice with a grain of salt. Consult a tax lawyer.

What if you get audited?

Danke
06-18-2008, 04:43 PM
Like earning income? :rolleyes:

Yes. :rolleyes:

hypnagogue
06-18-2008, 04:50 PM
Earning income is not a criminal offense and paying taxes are not a punitive action. Thus filing a tax return is not incriminating yourself.

Really, if you don't like a law work to change it, but don't burn your credibility coming up with contrived legal arguments that it's not a law.

Acala
06-18-2008, 04:55 PM
What if you get audited?

You answer their questions and provide your records. Essentially all you are doing by not filing a return is making them do the paperwork.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
06-18-2008, 05:01 PM
Like earning income? :rolleyes:

Lots of people don't. Some aren't capable. I thought some others were just scrubs, but it turns out that they might be tax protestors. :p

Acala
06-18-2008, 05:01 PM
Earning income is not a criminal offense and paying taxes are not a punitive action. Thus filing a tax return is not incriminating yourself.

Really, if you don't like a law work to change it, but don't burn your credibility coming up with contrived legal arguments that it's not a law.

The 5th amendment protects you from being forced to give evidence that could be used against you for criminal prosecution. The information in your tax return could be used as evidence against you. So you cannot be forced to give it. I believe this has been upheld in court. But the 5th amendment does NOT relieve you of the statutory obligation to pay the tax.

But I actually agree with you. Change the law. I also agree that most of the tax protester legal arguments don't hold water.

polomertz
06-18-2008, 05:25 PM
You can file a tax return and sort of protect your 5th Amendment rights by NOT SIGNING YOUR RETURN.

DO NOT SIGN YOUR TAX RETURN.

I have done this a few times in the past but now I don't file at all. You will get your return, and then a few months later a letter asking for you to sign. Don't ever sign anything from them. Don't do it.


"By signing the 1040 Income Tax Confession Form under oath that their Income Tax Confession Forms were 'true, correct and complete' and making it easy for the Government to come after them and jail them."
"According to the IRS, there are over 63 million non-filers. If you file and sign your income tax returns, your chances of going to jail are 8 times greater than if you do nothing."
-Taken from The Republic Magazine Issue 5 - The Federal Income Tax Scam.

I've also heard Joe Banister saying that in tax court they frequently blow up your signature on your tax return real big to display in court. After that, it just depends on how the court views you, tax-evader, or liberty-defender. Apparently it really can go either way.

Matt Collins
06-18-2008, 07:04 PM
Figure out how much tax you owe and send in a check for that amount with a note saying that is to cover your income tax liability for the year. That way you can't be prosecuted for non-payment (assuming you paid the total amount due) and the 5th amendment prevents you from being prosecuted for failure to file a return.We are not talking about payment... we are talking about filing a return. How can I file a return without waiving my right to not self-incriminate?

Matt Collins
06-18-2008, 10:21 PM
What if you get audited?That doesn't matter because I don't have to tell them anything. Again I don't have to testify against myself.

Anti Federalist
06-18-2008, 11:01 PM
Asking this question or asking why is redundant.

Why is there an illegal fed reserve or an undeclared war going on?

They're the crooks and can do whatever the hell they please.

Danke
06-18-2008, 11:35 PM
That doesn't matter because I don't have to tell them anything. Again I don't have to testify against myself.

Unless you volunteer into a privileged activity. Rights then go out the window.

We have the unlimited ability to contract, and that includes contracting in a way that restricts our rights.

Matt Collins
06-19-2008, 11:06 AM
filing a tax return is not incriminating yourself. Yes it is because you sign it under penalty of perjury, and then that document can and will be used against you in court later on.

polomertz
06-20-2008, 09:12 AM
Yes it is because you sign it under penalty of perjury, and then that document can and will be used against you in court later on.

Hello.... is anybody listening.... you don't have to sign it!!!!

Kade
06-20-2008, 09:20 AM
Does anyone know how I can file a tax return and still have my 5th Amendment protection?

Because of a very poor Supreme Court Case called United States v Sullivan, in which it ruled that the tax payer could not invoke the Fifth Amendment as basis for refusing to file an income tax return.



The fifth amendment was held up almost 40 years later, ironically, when, of all things, the Communist Party of the United States was forced to register under the famous Subversive Activities Control Board, the Supreme Court rejected the SACB requirements.

foofighter20x
06-20-2008, 05:24 PM
Not a definitive source, but it's a start (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_constitutional_arguments#Fifth_Amend ment)...

Danke
11-22-2008, 01:53 AM
Not a definitive source, but it's a start (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_constitutional_arguments#Fifth_Amend ment)...

Did you write this?

Kludge
11-22-2008, 02:00 AM
Yes! Cant you see that we are a democratic society and, therefore, we should not be productive?... i mean...

:D I like that. I'ma use something like that in an argument later if I can to see how it works.

Thanks. :)

DamianTV
11-23-2008, 09:32 AM
Does anyone know how I can file a tax return and still have my 5th Amendment protection?

The right answer comes from asking the right question.

Now the question really should be can you find a Judge that will uphold your 5th Amendment right and protect you from the unconstitutional Income Tax? I think your odds are slim to none. Which means youre just as fucked as the rest of us when we stand by ourselves against oppression.

edit: Oh and we are NOT a Democratic Society. We are a REPUBLIC with TRACES OF DEMOCRACY. I have proof. ...and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, indivisible... A REAL democracy wouldnt have any representatives, we would vote on everything, and since we dont, our democratic process itself is an illusion.

CountryboyRonPaul
11-23-2008, 11:42 AM
Not trying to hijack the thread, but....

When one is sent to jail in my parish, they are required to take a urine screening for drugs.

But, if refused, the court holds the refusal as an admission of guilt.

Tell me how this is at all in accord with the 5th Amendment. :confused:

Same goes for Breathalizers in a DWI stop.

paulpwns
11-23-2008, 11:51 AM
Federal income tax returns

In some cases, individuals may be legally required to file reports that call for information that may be used against them in criminal cases. In United States v. Sullivan, 274 U.S. 259 (1927), the United States Supreme Court ruled that a taxpayer could not invoke the Fifth Amendment's protections as the basis for refusing to file a required federal income tax return. The Court stated: "If the form of return provided called for answers that the defendant was privileged from making[,] he could have raised the objection in the return, but could not on that account refuse to make any return at all. We are not called on to decide what, if anything, he might have withheld."

In Garner v. United States, 424 U.S. 648 (1976) the defendant was convicted in connection with a conspiracy to "fix” sporting contests and to transmit illegal bets. During the trial the prosecutor introduced, as evidence, the taxpayer's Federal income tax returns for various years. In one return the taxpayer had showed his occupation to be “professional gambler.” In various returns the taxpayer had reported income from “gambling” or “wagering.” The prosecution used this to help contradict the taxpayer's argument that his involvement was innocent. The taxpayer tried unsuccessfully to keep the prosecutor from introducing the tax returns as evidence, arguing that since the taxpayer was legally required to report the illegal income on the returns, he was being compelled to be a witness against himself. The Supreme Court agreed that he was legally required to report the illegal income on the returns, but ruled that the privilege against self-incrimination still did not apply. The Court stated that "if a witness under compulsion to testify makes disclosures instead of claiming the privilege, the Government has not 'compelled' him to incriminate himself."

Sullivan and Garner are viewed by some legal scholars as standing, in tandem, for the proposition that on a required Federal income tax return a taxpayer would probably have to report the amount of the illegal income, but might validly claim the privilege by labeling the item "Fifth Amendment" (instead of "illegal gambling income," "illegal drug sales," etc.)