Help me reply to this about corporatism

[teshuah]

and global warming... I would just go ahead and tackle it, but my brain is much today... anyone care to help me out here. Or point me to some links I can read... either on his side or mine?

Here was my first reply after he'd sent me a couple links wanting me to re-consider my stance on Global warming:


Now, see, I'm not going to totally say that it's not an issue... but I don't buy into it as fact. There might be some truth to it. But in science there are no absolutes. But my biggest beef with the whole situation is the Government should not be involved with the issue in any way, shape or form. The free markets should be left alone to correct it and we shouldn't be forced in how we are to live our lives because of a possible scenario the Global Warming advocates proclaim.

And then his reply:


You're kidding, right? Deregulation and corporations not wanting to adhere to limitations that would have avoided this mess in the first place is how this all got started. Near trillion dollar corporations are so wealthy that market forces have less and less affect on them. We are today where we never should have been.

As far as how people are forced to live their lives, people are are a willing audience to a media that spoon feeds information and entertainment; most people don't have a sense of reality anyway.

[Truth Warrior]

google "corporatism" www.google.com

:D

[Kade]

and global warming... I would just go ahead and tackle it, but my brain is much today... anyone care to help me out here. Or point me to some links I can read... either on his side or mine?

Here was my first reply after he'd sent me a couple links wanting me to re-consider my stance on Global warming:



And then his reply:

I agree with the person you are arguing with..

It is a national defense issue in the long term... and the science is not absolute, but it pretty damn close... :cool:

[acptulsa]

Market forces have little effect on a big corporation? Only if they buy enough represenatives to pass a sheaf of laws to protect them. Big corporations must make money constantly or their own weight bleeds them dry in no time. When they get boycotted they kowtow faster than anything as a general rule.

The only impediments to the free market curing such ills are regulation that insulates corporations from the will of the people and a lack of will among the people. And if regulations are there to substitute for the will of the people, well, it may be effective but it sure ain't democracy.

[Truth Warrior]

How many ppm of the Earth atmosphere is CO2? What is the most abundant "green house" gas in the atmosphere?

[Kade]

Market forces have little effect on a big corporation? Only if they buy enough represenatives to pass a sheaf of laws to protect them. Big corporations must make money constantly or their own weight bleeds them dry in no time. When they get boycotted they kowtow faster than anything as a general rule.

The only impediments to the free market curing such ills are regulation that insulates corporations from the will of the people and a lack of will among the people. And if regulations are there to substitute for the will of the people, well, it may be effective but it sure ain't democracy.

I respect that opinion. Honestly, I've read many, many variants of that argument... however, I am not entirely convinced by it... not from an evolutionary psychological approach.

I don't think the free market would work to cure Global Warming... the energy crisis... sure.. but there is no compelling reason to support efforts to risk time and money against such a thing, instead... waste money on the propaganda and media to question the science.

The market benefits from destroying the "myth" rather than supporting the science.

That is the truth.

[Truth Warrior]

How many ppm of the Earth atmosphere is CO2? What is the most abundant "green house" gas in the atmosphere?
Thanks for asking. :D

Terrestrial Atmosphere

Surface pressure: 1014 mb
Surface density: 1.217 kg/m3
Scale height: 8.5 km
Total mass of atmosphere: 5.1 x 1018 kg
Total mass of hydrosphere: 1.4 x 1021 kg
Average temperature: 288 K (15 C)
Diurnal temperature range: 283 K to 293 K (10 to 20 C)
Wind speeds: 0 to 100 m/s
Mean molecular weight: 28.97 g/mole

Atmospheric composition (by volume, dry air):

Major : 78.084% Nitrogen (N2), 20.946% Oxygen (O2),

Minor (ppm): Argon (Ar) - 9340; Carbon Dioxide (CO2) - 380
Neon (Ne) - 18.18; Helium (He) - 5.24; CH4 - 1.7
Krypton (Kr) - 1.14; Hydrogen (H2) - 0.55

Water is highly variable, typically makes up about 1%

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary...earthfact.html (http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/facts.../earthfact.html)

:rolleyes:

[Danke]

http://www.globalclimatescam.com/

[TastyWheat]

Cassette tapes, lead paint, car phones, asbestos, and CRT monitors are few and far between because of the lack of demand. In some of these examples the demand tapered off because of health and safety reasons. Now if 10% of the population starts living green that won't affect the demand of SUVs, incandescent bulbs (which, by the way, I can at least throw away in the trash), solar panels, or plastic shopping bags very much. If the corporations aren't doing anything about global warming it's because their customers don't care.

Ask whoever it is you're talking to when was the last time the free market totally and utterly dropped the ball and the government had to come to the rescue.

[AutoDas]

If it was up to the liberal we'd all be living in caves hunting and gathering food. Of course production is going to have some effect, it's better than living in an archaic society.

[Kade]

Cassette tapes, lead paint, car phones, asbestos, and CRT monitors are few and far between because of the lack of demand. In some of these examples the demand tapered off because of health and safety reasons. Now if 10% of the population starts living green that won't affect the demand of SUVs, incandescent bulbs (which, by the way, I can at least throw away in the trash), solar panels, or plastic shopping bags very much. If the corporations aren't doing anything about global warming it's because their customers don't care.

Ask whoever it is you're talking to when was the last time the free market totally and utterly dropped the ball and the government had to come to the rescue.

The Great Depression.

The Austrians would like to blame the money supply, but of the great debates that unfolded during the periods after, it was one of the arguments they lost...

In the end, the government did bail out this country.

(Can the form of the dispute with this claim please not be flaming, I'm asking nicely once)

[acptulsa]

I don't get the impression that the market was all that free in the twenties. Certainly the decade dawned on an America that had socialized the railroads (and the government was on the cusp of destroying them). As for the students of J.P. Morgan, they definitely had undue influence with a host of legislators.

That said, a ball was certainly dropped. And as for the bail out, the big Austrian question seems to be did that prevent the free market from curing the ills, or was there enough free market in place to even have a chance to prove itself?

[Kade]

I don't get the impression that the market was all that free in the twenties. Certainly the decade dawned on an America that had socialized the railroads (and the government was on the cusp of destroying them). As for the students of J.P. Morgan, they definitely had undue influence with a host of legislators.

That said, a ball was certainly dropped. And as for the bail out, the big Austrian question seems to be did that prevent the free market from curing the ills, or was there enough free market in place to even have a chance to prove itself?

You are right. I don't particularly think the 20s was totally free market as envisioned by the Austrians, but the corporations were strong.

A true socialist bailout worked. That is fact. If it prevented a market cure for it, we may never know. We will have to see what fixes the next big (inevitable) crash.

The rhetorically question was if the government had ever bailed out an economy...

It most certainly did.

[TastyWheat]

The Great Depression.

The Austrians would like to blame the money supply, but of the great debates that unfolded during the periods after, it was one of the arguments they lost...

In the end, the government did bail out this country.

(Can the form of the dispute with this claim please not be flaming, I'm asking nicely once)
Yeah, and the federal reserve admitted the blame for the Great Depression.

[acptulsa]

Yeah, and the federal reserve admitted the blame for the Great Depression.

Though, of course, hardly in a timely manner...

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Yeah, and the federal reserve admitted the blame for the Great Depression.

Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke
At the Conference to Honor Milton Friedman, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois
November 8, 2002

On Milton Friedman's Ninetieth Birthday

"Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again."

http://www.federalreserve.gov/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/2002/20021108/default.htm

[acptulsa]

Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke
At the Conference to Honor Milton Friedman, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois
November 8, 2002

On Milton Friedman's Ninetieth Birthday

"Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again."

http://www.federalreserve.gov/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/2002/20021108/default.htm

And who among us has faith at this moment that they'll keep that promise?

[Truth Warrior]

The Great Depression.

The Austrians would like to blame the money supply, but of the great debates that unfolded during the periods after, it was one of the arguments they lost...

In the end, the government did bail out this country.

(Can the form of the dispute with this claim please not be flaming, I'm asking nicely once)
Bernanke: Federal Reserve caused Great Depression
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59405

[Kade]

Bernanke: Federal Reserve caused Great Depression
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59405

Did you just link to WorldNetDaily?

Ignorance is strength.

[lucius]

Did you just link to WorldNetDaily?

Ignorance is strength.

How about directly from the Federal Reserve Board?

Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke
At the Conference to Honor Milton Friedman, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois
November 8, 2002
On Milton Friedman's Ninetieth Birthday

Whole speech at link: http://www.federalreserve.gov/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/2002/20021108/default.htm

Second to last paragraph in the 'Conclusion':

"Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again."

[Kade]

How about directly from the Federal Reserve Board?

Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke
At the Conference to Honor Milton Friedman, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois
November 8, 2002
On Milton Friedman's Ninetieth Birthday

Whole speech at link: http://www.federalreserve.gov/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/2002/20021108/default.htm

Second to last paragraph in the 'Conclusion':

"Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again."

I didn't say it was wrong. You guys are quick to jump on anything...Jesus.

No, it linked to WorldNetDaily, which is a theocratic propaganda news outlet.

[teshuah]

That said, a ball was certainly dropped. And as for the bail out, the big Austrian question seems to be did that prevent the free market from curing the ills, or was there enough free market in place to even have a chance to prove itself?

This is my problem - have we ever had a chance to show the free market truly at work to see that it *would* work in changing things?

As my friend stipulates, and I agree - not enough people care and just get fed by the media as to what to believe. This in and of itself plays a big part on how a true free market economy functions, does it not?

I can think of recent instance with Ford Motor Company. Their sales went down big time over the time span of the AFA putting their feet to the fire regarding their support of homosexuals. Most recently, they rescinded that support. The free market at work - when individuals *Care* and want to see a change.

I think we're at the point now, are we not, where there is a large enough percentage of the population that is making the global warming (scare... okay not debating whether it's fact or not) issue a big deal in their own lives/families that a boycott of particular companies would start to make an impact. But, instead, we wait for the government to put regulations on the industry and hope that does the job. instead, it ties the hands of the businesses that could make something different and, supposedly, make a difference.

Am I making any sense? Sorry... 9 months pregnant and children running around me trying to type this.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

How about directly from the Federal Reserve Board?

Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke
At the Conference to Honor Milton Friedman, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois
November 8, 2002
On Milton Friedman's Ninetieth Birthday

Whole speech at link: http://www.federalreserve.gov/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/2002/20021108/default.htm

Second to last paragraph in the 'Conclusion':

"Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again."

It looks like we both posted a link to the exact same text. I like that you used the color blue in yours, however. :)

[Truth Warrior]

Did you just link to WorldNetDaily?

Ignorance is strength.
Did Benanke say it or not! :p

IF that were true, you'd be Superman! :rolleyes:

[Kade]

Did Benanke say it or not! :p

IF that were true, you'd be Superman! :rolleyes:

War is peace.

[danberkeley]

The Great Depression.

The Austrians would like to blame the money supply, but of the great debates that unfolded during the periods after, it was one of the arguments they lost...

In the end, the government did bail out this country.

(Can the form of the dispute with this claim please not be flaming, I'm asking nicely once)

How about you read a book: America's Great Depression by Murray N. Rothbard, it's only 900 or so pages

[Kade]

How about you read a book: America's Great Depression by Murray N. Rothbard, it's only 900 or so pages

I read it, and I vehemently disagree with Rothbard. Aside from his two credible critiques of inflationary policies of Hoover, in both America's Great Depression and Economic Depressions, his "cure", an almost anarchist approach to market economy is wildly speculative at best...

[Truth Warrior]

War is peace.
Translation: Yes, Bernanke said it!

[pinkmandy]

See page 105 of the Revolution: A Manifesto. :D

[Truth Warrior]

See page 105 of the Revolution: A Manifesto. :D
;)

[acptulsa]

Am I making any sense? Sorry... 9 months pregnant and children running around me trying to type this.

Your post made perfect sense to me!