People who talk about collectivists are collectivists

[brandon]

People who talk about collectivists are themselves collectivists.

Discuss.

[torchbearer]

People who talk about collectivists are themselves collectivists.

Discuss.

So that makes you a?

[RSLudlum]

That's why i prefer to talk about 'collectivism' ;)

[brandon]

So that makes you a?

It makes me a collectivist. That is not the point of the thread though. I don't want to talk about anyone specifically. I want to talk about the collective group of people who talk negatively about the collective group of people that subscribe to the ideology they refer to as collectivism.

[nate895]

Collectivism is a symptom of the human condition. It will always be there, but you must ignore the impulse to judge others based on your preconceived notions, or to have government recognition of these collectivizations. I find that to be using the term collectivist to describe someone who believes collectivism should be government policy is a harmless thing. To say it is harmful would be to say describing someone as "conservative" or "liberal" is harmful as well. That isn't the case, it's fine to collectivize somewhat, as long as you don't institutionalize it or dismiss others based on their membership in one group or another.

[torchbearer]

It makes me a collectivist. That is not the point of the thread though. I don't want to talk about anyone specifically. I want to talk about the collective group of people who talk negatively about the collective group of people that subscribe to the ideology they refer to as collectivism.

Sun Tzu: if you know not yourself, nor your enemy, you will suffer a defeat in every battle.
if you know yourself and not your enemy, for every victory you will suffer a defeat.
And if you know yourself and your enemy, you shall not fear a hundred battles.

As in, in an effort to know our enemy, we had to categorically give them a name.
the one that is least specific, and most adequately describes those who work against personal liberty are to be called collectivist.
Its not a law, but general consensus for use in communicating ideas.

[brandon]

Collectivism is a symptom of the human condition. It will always be there, but you must ignore the impulse to judge others based on your preconceived notions, or to have government recognition of these collectivizations. I find that to be using the term collectivist to describe someone who believes collectivism should be government policy is a harmless thing. To say it is harmful would be to say describing someone as "conservative" or "liberal" is harmful as well. That isn't the case, it's fine to collectivize somewhat, as long as you don't institutionalize it or dismiss others based on their membership in one group or another.

I agree. We are all collectivists by nature, and I do not think that is a bad thing.

We all identify with some collective group. We are Meetup members, family members, church members, etc.

While I think the whole "Individualism vs collectivism" battle has good intentions and I mostly agree with it, but it goes too far. Humans by nature want to belong to groups.

[brandon]

Sun Tzu: if you know not yourself, nor your enemy, you will suffer a defeat in every battle.
if you know yourself and not your enemy, for every victory you will suffer a defeat.
And if you know yourself and your enemy, you shall not fear a hundred battles.

As in, in an effort to know our enemy, we had to categorically give them a name.
the one that is least specific, and most adequately describes those who work against personal liberty are to be called collectivist.
Its not a law, but general consensus for use in communicating ideas.

I agree we have to give them a name, I just don't think collectivist is the best name. It infers a great deal of hypocrisy to talk about fighting a collective enemy because they are collectivists.

[torchbearer]

A collectivist believes if its worth doing its worth forcing someone to do it.
ergo - seat belt laws. something you should do for you own safety, so we will force you to do it by threat of fine or imprisonment.
you can play word games, and label games, and twist words... if you want an example i will give you one...

an individualist believes in setting a good example and leading by showing your virtues have value, not forcing your virtues on others.

[Cowlesy]

I consider myself an American Patriot.

Are Patriots collectivists?

[Conza88]

Your definition of 'collectivist' is skewed.

I'm a human. <-- OHHHh collectivist, I associated myself with a species.. How collectivist of me.. :rolleyes:

col·lec·tiv·ism (kə-lĕk'tə-vĭz'əm) pronunciation n.
The principles or system of ownership and control of the means of production and distribution by the people collectively, usually under the supervision of a government.

I really dunno wtf you're on about... and I don't think you know either.

[torchbearer]

I consider myself an American Patriot.

Are Patriots collectivists?

Not if they believe in the contract called the U.S. Constitution.
This document provided safe guards for you rights from the majority.
It was an individualist document.

[brandon]

Your definition of 'collectivist' is skewed.

I'm a human. <-- OHHHh collectivist, I associated myself with a species.. How collectivist of me.. :rolleyes:


I really dunno wtf you're on about... and I don't think you know either.

I know exactly what I am talking about. I am not talking about the definition of collectivism you gave. I am talking about...



Collectivism is a term used to describe any moral, political, or social outlook, that stresses human interdependence and the importance of a collective, rather than the importance of separate individuals & individualism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism

[Kalifornia]

Um, I think you are missing a vital distinction.

People who believe in FORCED collective action are "collectivists".

People who believe that people should be free to associate or not, are not collectivists.

People who choose to associate with others freely to achieve shared results are "voluntarists"

[Conza88]

I'm going to go edit the wiki, so it contains the definition I gave. :cool: hah

[torchbearer]

Um, I think you are missing a vital distinction.

People who believe in FORCED collective action are "collectivists".

People who believe that people should be free to associate or not, are not collectivists.

People who choose to associate with others freely to achieve shared results are "voluntarists"

thread winner.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

People who talk about Civil Rights (race laws) are racist.

The real question to be asked is, how do you remedy a problem?

Does fighting a problem ever really make it go away? In fighting something, you give it importance and significance. To fight something, don't you have to become it?

[torchbearer]

People who talk about Civil Rights (race laws) are racist.

The real question to be asked is, how do you remedy a problem?

Does fighting a problem ever really make it go away? In fighting something, you give it importance and significance. To fight something, don't you have to become it?

if your rights are important, then you will fight for them right?
if you don't recognize your enemy, how do you defeat him?
fighting does resolve differences, its a form of communication, primitive and destructive.
It has shaped the world we live in today. To think the world is all peace with no war, is to disregard our history and how the reality on the ground is.. there are people who wish to enslave you, and if you don't fight back, you will always be a slave.
The people in power are not going to hand over power through an election, thats the biggest charade ever...our presidential election.
The kingmakers have already decided.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

if your rights are important, then you will fight for them right?
if you don't recognize your enemy, how do you defeat him?
fighting does resolve differences, its a form of communication, primitive and destructive.
It has shaped the world we live in today. To think the world is all peace with no war, is to disregard our history and how the reality on the ground is.. there are people who wish to enslave you, and if you don't fight back, you will always be a slave.
The people in power are not going to hand over power through an election, thats the biggest charade ever...our presidential election.
The kingmakers have already decided.

by making you believe you have to do something to be free, they have enslaved you. Slavery can only exist at the will of the enslaved.

This is a common theme among people who desire power. Present a problem and two choices to deal with that problem. (i.e. "You either fight the system or sustain it." etc.) There are always more than two choices.

You are right about enemies though. However, to recognize your truest enemy all you need to do is look within yourself. Rid yourself of that enemy and you'll realize there is no enemy, only ignorance.

Give me one example, just one, of when fighting completely resolved a difference.

[torchbearer]

Slavery can only exist at the will of the enslaved.

So people in prison can just leave? They won't be shot?
I can stop paying my taxes, and the fed won't come lock me up?
Wow- you are so wise. All I have to do, is believe i'm not a slave, and everything just disappears.
wow- :rolleyes:

[Danke]

So people in prison can just leave? They won't be shot?
I can stop paying my taxes, and the fed won't come lock me up?
Wow- you are so wise. All I have to do, is believe i'm not a slave, and everything just disappears.
wow- :rolleyes:

No, you don't just have to believe it. But understand what our forefathers fought for and left us.

If you don't want to fight for that, then yes, you are a slave fearful of the master's retributions.


Don't stop paying your taxes. But don't pay taxes you're not liable for either.

Learn the con and resist.

[OptionsTrader]

I like the exponential silliness of hypocrytical thread titles.

[yongrel]

Some people call me a Space Cowboy.

[revolutionary8]

Some people call me a Space Cowboy.
I am the gang starr of luv.

Mauu reese?

[Truth Warrior]

People who talk about collectivists are themselves collectivists.

Discuss.
Are you talking about collectivists? :D

[brandon]

Are you talking about collectivists? :D

Yes.

[Conza88]

Hmm, but I don't believe in collectivists.. I just believe in individuals, who like to think in collectivist terms.. there just happens to be a lot of individuals with the same kind of thoughts.

[Truth Warrior]

Yes.
Therefore: That must mean that you are a .......................? :D

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

So people in prison can just leave? They won't be shot?
I can stop paying my taxes, and the fed won't come lock me up?
Wow- you are so wise. All I have to do, is believe i'm not a slave, and everything just disappears.
wow- :rolleyes:

Where do the Neo-Cons get their power from?

[Truth Warrior]

Where do the Neo-Cons get their power from?
Same as all of the other politicians do.

Enough people voluntarily surrender part of THEIR individual power and permission to them. It's kinda like hiring a gang of thugs.:rolleyes:

[brandon]

I guess my main point of this thread is there is no such thing as an absolute "collectivist" or "individualist". It is simply not a black and white issue, it is more of a continuum. Even the most hardcore "individualist" still wants to belong to a group or occasionally identifies other persons by the groups they belong to. And even the most hardcore "collectivist" still retains some sense of self.

It is not as simple as you are one or you are not one. Maybe there is an ideal place on the collectivist - individualist continuum where we want to be, but it it infinitely long so we cant be all the way at one end.

[Truth Warrior]

I guess my main point of this thread is there is no such thing as an absolute "collectivist" or "individualist". It is simply not a black and white issue, it is more of a continuum. Even the most hardcore "individualist" still wants to belong to a group or occasionally identifies other persons by the groups they belong to. And even the most hardcore "collectivist" still retains some sense of self.

It is not as simple as you are one or you are not one. Maybe there is an ideal place on the collectivist - individualist continuum where we want to be, but it it infinitely long so we cant be all the way at one end.
You show me a "society" and I'll show you an individual. :D

[axiomata]

You may call me an associativist.