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cradle2graveconservative
06-17-2008, 03:11 AM
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acroso
06-17-2008, 04:23 AM
McCain loves amnesty. McCain hates free-speech. McCain told 4 sources behind closed doors that he opposed judge Alito but would vote for him anyways for political purposes. McCain-Lieberman bill would have eliminated the 2nd amendment or tried to at least. McCain votes against Bush tax cuts. McCain started the gang of 14 to oppose Bush judges. McCain supports more sopending on the military-industrial complex. McCain supports continued nation-building.


Hell I'd be more inclined to vote Obama just to spite the man.

I'll vote third part, but if I was going to choose it would be Obama hands down. At least he will cut spending in Iraq and allow Republicans to maybe WIN a midterm election rather than keep losing house seats.

Conza88
06-17-2008, 04:26 AM
Ignorance. And it's in abundance.

To vote for Republican or Democrat means you don't know shit as to why the US is in the trouble it is. One party, two faces of evil. Period. People who want Obama, want to re-plug into the matrix... sorry guys, doesn't work like that. You're stuck with us, so put some boots on and start kicking ass, or gtfo the battle field.

libertarian4321
06-17-2008, 05:27 AM
Here's what we face:

Our guy is out of it. No pro-freedom candidate is going to win. Given that the Libertarian Party candidate this year is a neocon Libertarian in Name Only, there won't even be a pro-freedom candidate available to many of us (the Constitution Party is so small it can barely get a quorum for a poker game).

Either McCain or Obama will be President, and all the "third parties" combined will probably pull in far less than 2% of the vote.

So we have a choice- we can cast a vote for LINO Bob Barr, or vote for some even smaller "third party" candidate like Nader, Baldwin, McKinney, or Zippy the Wonder Pup as a "protest" vote that no one will notice.

Or we can choose the "lesser evil" among the guys that can win.

For those of us who choose the "lesser evil" vote over the "meaningless protest" vote, I suspect many would choose Obama over McWar (why would anyone other than a neocon nut or diehard Republican vote for McWar? He's a terrible candidate and a nasty person, to boot).

I know, there are a bunch of you who will flame anyone who chooses Obama over "endless war" John McCain, claiming "they are exactly the same"- but many people don't believe Obama is the kind of aggressive, rabid warmonger that McCain is.

BTW, as long as there is a REAL liberty-minded candidate running as a Libertarian, I'll vote for him- I've never voted for the "lesser evil" Republicrat before. However, I'm just not convinced that Barr has changed at this point.

I don't know much about Baldwin, but I'm not sure it matters because the Constitution Party is just sooooo small- it won't even get noticed (at least the LP is big enough to get on the ballot in most states).

Bottom line, we are SCREWED and there is no good choice- I probably won't make up my mind until just before the election, but I know that no matter what I do, the only real loser this November will be the American people...

DAFTEK
06-17-2008, 05:51 AM
All im going to say to these new Obomba ex Ron Paul supporters is FU you dumb idiots! Quit drinking that CNN KoolAid...... Mr Obama? phhht please...... I don't have to respect Hussein Crack head Osama or anyone who supports him... I fear Obomba and the Democrats more then i fear McPain..... This country is going into the shit hole just like the South Bronx did many years ago and Barack "Hussein" Obama will be pimpin in the white house.... Now flame i dont give a frank! The more i see RP supporters flock to the Hussein campaign the more i will vote for McPain!

V-rod
06-17-2008, 05:53 AM
A lot here would disagree, but in my opinion, McCain is the lesser evil compared to Obama, but just barely..

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 05:59 AM
i will not bitch at one person who votes for obama, the gop gets exactly what they deserve. To be honest if i have to ill drive every democrat to the poll:) Mccain is pathetic and should be treated as such..

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 06:03 AM
All im going to say to these new Obomba ex Ron Paul supporters is FU you dumb idiots! Quit drinking that CNN KoolAid...... Mr Obama? phhht please...... I don't have to respect Hussein Crack head Osama or anyone who supports him... I fear Obomba and the Democrats more then i fear McPain..... This country is going into the shit hole just like the South Bronx did many years ago and Barack "Hussein" Obama will be pimpin in the white house.... Now flame i dont give a frank! The more i see RP supporters flock to the Hussein campaign the more i will vote for McPain!

and who do you suggest they vote for?? Mccain? HELL NO, look if someone wants to vote for obama? (i'm not) can you really blame them? the fact is mccain is a JOKE ,BUT ID RATHER PEOPLE VOTE FOR OBAMA TO MAKE SURE MCCAIN DOESN'T WIN...... they both suck but after what the gop pulled ,i cannot harp one obama voter, if the gop wants to win they better NOMINATE RON PAUL at the CONVENTION, if not . I will gladly get anyone out to vote as long as they DO NOT VOTE FOR McCain..


look at it this way if i kicked you hard in the nuts 5 times and continued would you want to vote for me ? I don't blame onme voter for making sure mccain does not win. I bless them

malkusm
06-17-2008, 06:11 AM
McCain/Obama are two sides of the same coin, and it's a coin minted by the Federal Reserve that's going to lose what little value it has very soon.

Ron Paul is a gold coin. Barr, Baldwin, etc. are silver coins....not the real deal, but certainly better than what the other two are trying to sell us. Paul speaks highly of them both in interviews and I trust his judgment...unless he formally endorses one over the other, that's the decision I face in November.

DAFTEK
06-17-2008, 06:13 AM
and who do you suggest they vote for?? Mccain? HELL NO, look if someone wants to vote for obama? (i'm not) can you really blame them? the fact is mccain is a JOKE ,BUT ID RATHER PEOPLE VOTE FOR OBAMA TO MAKE SURE MCCAIN DOESN'T WIN...... they both suck but after what the gop pulled ,i cannot harp one obama voter, if the gop wants to win they better NOMINATE RON PAUL at the CONVENTION, if not . I will gladly get anyone out to vote as long as they DO NOT VOTE FOR McCain..

Your just as big of an idiot voting for Hussein than i would be for voting for McPain! :rolleyes: Why not encourage people to vote for Baldwin or Barr and feel better about yourself than starting this stupid thread? Your just pushing and justifying an ok vote for Hussein! Obama ass kisser's can kiss my ass is all im going to say!

Joseph Hart
06-17-2008, 06:17 AM
Soon fuel cells will replace your existing engine with conversion kits.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 06:30 AM
Your just as big of an idiot voting for Hussein than i would be for voting for McPain! :rolleyes: Why not encourage people to vote for Baldwin or Barr and feel better about yourself than starting this stupid thread? Your just pushing and justifying an ok vote for Hussein! Obama ass kisser's can kiss my ass is all im going to say!

and i never said i would vote for obama, look i love chuck baldwin and barr better then mccain or obama,but if i must drive democrats to the polls to make sure mccain doesnt win then i will be driving them. I would rather see mccain lose and we pick up the good republicans after the election ,then see mccain win,mccain or obama ,we both lose either way, BUT I WILL NOT HARP ON ONE PERSON FOR VOTING OVER MCCAIN FOR OBAMA, screw'em both,but id rather see mccain get screwed. like i said i will not harp one person for voting for obama after what the gop/mccain folks pulled . I will vote outside the 2 useless parties ,so im not sure where you got the idea i was voting for obama ,i never said i was but i KNOW WHO IM NOT VOTING FOR MCCAIN:), but i will make SURE OBAMA VOTERS GO VOTE WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LET THE NAZI PARTY(gop) WIN. I WILL NOT LET IT HAPPEN.

RickyJ
06-17-2008, 06:31 AM
Soon fuel cells will replace your existing engine with conversion kits.

Fuel cells store energy, they are not engines! If you are going to go off topic, at least get it right.

Anyone that votes for Obama or McCain should be ashamed of themselves. Right now I will be voting for Bob Barr as a protest vote. I encourage all Ron Paul supporters to do the same.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 06:32 AM
Idiot= anyone voting for useless mccain, I WILL BE VOTING FOR Barr or Baldwin but remember the word suspended, that still leaves some options on the table

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 06:33 AM
Fuel cells store energy, they are not engines! If you are going to go off topic, at least get it right.

Anyone that votes for Obama or McCain should be ashamed of themselves. Right now I will be voting for Bob Barr as a protest vote. I encourage all Ron Paul supporters to do the same.

anything to make sure mccain does not win is smart, so lets get busy changing republicans minds and encourage every democrat to vote to make sure mccain has no chance in hell.

as long as mccain loses i will be happy, we cannot reward the gop for kicking us in the balls.

Kade
06-17-2008, 08:35 AM
Now that I see Dr .Paul has asked us, as supporters, not to stage a right-in (see what I did there :rolleyes:) I've seen a couple people spring up and say they're going to vote for Mr. Obama. While I

respect their right to be wron...erm...choose whomever they wish, I'd like some clarification as to, "why?" Mr. Obama and Dr. Paul have almost nothing in common policy-wise, and are, in fact, on the

exact opposite ends of the political spectrum. I'm not saying this as an endorsement for McCain, I'll probably have to cut off the hand that eventually winds up filling in that arrow (or bubble or whatever

the hell thing we'll have to do this election, it'll certainly confuse some moron somewhere), but I need to know why there's a lean towards Mr. Obama. Is there some information, some key piece of

evidence, some needle in the haystack that should cause me to lean the opposite way of the way I've been leaning for the last 20 years? Help this troubled conservative!

On Abortion:
Paul: State's right.
Obama: Privacy right.
McCain: Illegal.

On War:
Paul: Pull out.
Obama: Pull out soon.
McCain: 100 years.

On Privacy:
Paul: Fundamental right.
Obama: fundamental right.
McCain: What is privacy?

On Corporate welfare:
Paul: Sorry suckers.
Obama: Nope.
McCain: Where do I sign? Necessary for economy. (Bear Stearns)

On Judges:
Paul: Pro-constitutional judges.
Obama: Pro-liberty judges.
McCain: Pro-executive branch judges.

Gun rights:
Paul: Constitutional right to bear arms.
Obama: Constitutional right to bear arms.
McCain: Constitutional right to bear arms.

Federal Funding of Stem Cell Research:
Paul: Against.
Obama: Supports.
McCain: Supports.

Cloning:
Paul: State's rights.
Obama: Supports.
McCain: Against.

Flag Burning Ban:
Paul: voted against.
Obama: voted against.
McCain: Voted in support.

ACLU voting record on civil liberties:
Paul: 67%
Obama: 82%
McCain: 0%


You guys are BATSHIT.

Bruno
06-17-2008, 08:41 AM
A lot here would disagree, but in my opinion, McCain is the lesser evil compared to Obama, but just barely..

The lesser of two evils is still evils. Hear Obama's recent backtracking on Iraq? We will still be in Iraq in full forces for the next four years plus with either candidate.

Redmenace
06-17-2008, 08:48 AM
If I were going to vote for either, I would vote for the person who I believe would be the worst president economy wise. The quicker our economy collapses, the quicker the public will wake up to the message of freedom peace and prosperity. I think Obama with his 291 billion in proposed spending is pretty bad, but with McCain's endless war strategy who knows what the cost will be.

If you think choosing the lesser of two evils is hard, try choosing the greater.






I still want to write in Ron, but I'm warming to Baldwin.

Andrew-Austin
06-17-2008, 08:48 AM
Here's what we face:

Our guy is out of it. No pro-freedom candidate is going to win. Given that the Libertarian Party candidate this year is a neocon Libertarian in Name Only, there won't even be a pro-freedom candidate available to many of us (the Constitution Party is so small it can barely get a quorum for a poker game).

Either McCain or Obama will be President, and all the "third parties" combined will probably pull in far less than 2% of the vote.

So we have a choice- we can cast a vote for LINO Bob Barr, or vote for some even smaller "third party" candidate like Nader, Baldwin, McKinney, or Zippy the Wonder Pup as a "protest" vote that no one will notice.

Or we can choose the "lesser evil" among the guys that can win.

For those of us who choose the "lesser evil" vote over the "meaningless protest" vote, I suspect many would choose Obama over McWar (why would anyone other than a neocon nut or diehard Republican vote for McWar? He's a terrible candidate and a nasty person, to boot).

I know, there are a bunch of you who will flame anyone who chooses Obama over "endless war" John McCain, claiming "they are exactly the same"- but many people don't believe Obama is the kind of aggressive, rabid warmonger that McCain is.

BTW, as long as there is a REAL liberty-minded candidate running as a Libertarian, I'll vote for him- I've never voted for the "lesser evil" Republicrat before. However, I'm just not convinced that Barr has changed at this point.

I don't know much about Baldwin, but I'm not sure it matters because the Constitution Party is just sooooo small- it won't even get noticed (at least the LP is big enough to get on the ballot in most states).

Bottom line, we are SCREWED and there is no good choice- I probably won't make up my mind until just before the election, but I know that no matter what I do, the only real loser this November will be the American people...


You need to stop bullshiting yourself with all of this analysis. Why bother coming up with all the explanations as to why you must vote for Obama, and then later on admit we're screwed either way?

Vote by your conscious, fuck what other Americans do in the election, fuck the odds of a third party candidate actually winning.

Ask yourself... Who would be the best President, and leave it at that. Its really that simple.

SeanEdwards
06-17-2008, 08:51 AM
I would consider voting for Obomba just to help prevent a McCain upset win. GOP voters need to be taught a lesson.

A protest vote is amusing and all, but if that leads to a McCain win somehow it would be tragic. Slightly more tragic than a black commie prez, imo. I kinda like the idea of a black prez, might help cure some of that white guilt bullshit. Maybe it will make Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton stfu for a little while.

Kade
06-17-2008, 08:57 AM
You need to stop bullshiting yourself with all of this analysis. Why bother coming up with all the explanations as to why you must vote for Obama, and then later on admit we're screwed either way?

Vote by your conscious, fuck what other Americans do in the election, fuck the odds of a third party candidate actually winning.

Ask yourself... Who would be the best President, and leave it at that. Its really that simple.

Intelligent people realize it matters... if you had only two choices again, in the past 8 years, would you have stuck with Bush?

I am personally not better off because of it, screw the rest of you.

JK/SEA
06-17-2008, 09:02 AM
This thread is useless for me, and its 'interesting' reading the back and forth of who to vote for. Brand 'X' or brand 'X' ...

I'm going to wait till AFTER the convention to see what shakes out.

I may end up writing in RON PAUL in blood.

Carry on.

kg0
06-17-2008, 09:03 AM
On Abortion:
Paul: State's right.
Obama: Privacy right.
McCain: Illegal.

Federal Funding of Stem Cell Research:
Paul: Against.
Obama: Supports.
McCain: Supports.

You guys are BATSHIT.

You call those "privacy issues"? They're moral issues - and the fact that McCain supports stem cell research and has not had a overly pro-life record may easily stop me from voting for him. (Among other reasons, like his double-talk style, preemptive war stance, etc)

Let me add... I would never vote for Obama. Everything Ron Paul stands for - he's against, for the most part. Privacy (he voted to extend the Patriot Act), free markets (he wants heavy regulation of big "evil" companies), low taxes, pro-life (he supports PARTIAL BIRTH abortion), and so on.

Andrew-Austin
06-17-2008, 09:03 AM
Intelligent people realize it matters... if you had only two choices again, in the past 8 years, would you have stuck with Bush?

I am personally not better off because of it, screw the rest of you.

Oh yes, I'm unintelligent because I vote for the best candidate even if that person is in a third party. Kerry wouldn't have done anything fucking constructive, and we would still be in Iraq today if he was elected instead of Bush. I was not old enough to vote in the past election. But say hypothetically I could only vote for Bush or Kerry (and not for a third party), I just would have abstained from voting. And I wouldn't whine about how "I could have prevented so and so lesser evil from gaining office" had I voted for his opponent.

nbhadja
06-17-2008, 09:07 AM
Well anyone who thinks Obama is better than McCain is an idiot.
It's that simple. I cannot believe their are Ron Paul supporters that fail to look at Obama's voting record.

Rangeley
06-17-2008, 09:12 AM
On Abortion:
Paul: State's right.
Obama: Privacy right.
McCain: Illegal.

On War:
Paul: Pull out.
Obama: Pull out soon.
McCain: 100 years.

On Privacy:
Paul: Fundamental right.
Obama: fundamental right.
McCain: What is privacy?

On Corporate welfare:
Paul: Sorry suckers.
Obama: Nope.
McCain: Where do I sign? Necessary for economy. (Bear Stearns)

On Judges:
Paul: Pro-constitutional judges.
Obama: Pro-liberty judges.
McCain: Pro-executive branch judges.

Gun rights:
Paul: Constitutional right to bear arms.
Obama: Constitutional right to bear arms.
McCain: Constitutional right to bear arms.

Federal Funding of Stem Cell Research:
Paul: Against.
Obama: Supports.
McCain: Supports.

Cloning:
Paul: State's rights.
Obama: Supports.
McCain: Against.

Flag Burning Ban:
Paul: voted against.
Obama: voted against.
McCain: Voted in support.

ACLU voting record on civil liberties:
Paul: 67%
Obama: 82%
McCain: 0%


You guys are BATSHIT.
Pro-liberty judges? You mean judges who will rule that some people can have their lives taken away at the "liberty" of others? By "pull out soon," do you mean all places or just Iraq? Even his claim on Iraq is dubious, but he isn't even pretending to want to pull all troops... ever. On privacy, you mean he supports privacy by voting for to renew the Patriot act after running on a platform opposing it? By supporting the right to bear arms, you mean Obama wants a federal ban against carrying concealed weapons?

And by being close to Paul's stances, do you mean how Obama supports government intervention in healthcare? Affirmative action? His interventionist foreign policy? Not ruling out a pre-emptive war with Iran? Increasing taxes and strengthening the income tax?

I won't vote for McCain in 100 years, but I won't vote for Obama until he changes his positions.

Kade
06-17-2008, 09:44 AM
Seriously, the four responses above this are most anti-intuitive nonsense I've been exposed to in quite some time.

Judges that value civil liberties first, will never, never give more power to the executive branch, or reduce the meaning of the Constitution's meaning on civil liberties.

What many of you call "moral" issues, are in fact, liberty issues, just not issues you particularly like, for whatever reason.

I see a "moral" issue with corporations receiving "personhood" protection...

I see a "moral" issues with this expensive, insane, and useless war in Iraq...

Not everything is a conspiracy, not everyone is against you. I'm as close as you are going to get to a liberty absolutist... sure I don't like giving those liberties to Corporations, but you bet your sorry fat asses, that it will be ME, and people LIKE ME, in those courts, on the side of the ACLU, on the side of the farmer who has lost his land, on the side of the small business who is being replaced, on the side of the gun holders, the free speech absolutist, the religion freedom advocates, the protesters, and the people WHO DO MAKE A FUCKING DIFFERENCE.
You will see me on the side of the EFF, fighting against the closing of the NET.
You will see me on the side of even you, when you have finally realized that voting for the loss of others liberties, comes right back home to roost on your head.

So you folks can take your myopic vision of liberty and stick it straight up your wide goatse ass.

Rangeley
06-17-2008, 09:52 AM
You will see me on the side of even you, when you have finally realized that voting for the loss of others liberties, comes right back home to roost on your head.
Exactly. This is a very good summary of why I will not vote for Obama or McCain. I don't see that as anti-intuitive, nor do I really think it warrants such a sharp reaction as that.

Redmenace
06-17-2008, 09:55 AM
So you folks can take your myopic vision of liberty and stick it straight up your wide goatse ass.

How is the revolution ever going to last if we can't even be civil to one another over a simple disagreement. This is the same type of false left/right BS that has infected th rest of politics and has allowed our fake two party system to come in to existence. The elites can do whatever they wish as long as we bicker amongst ourselves.

Andrew-Austin
06-17-2008, 09:57 AM
Not everything is a conspiracy, not everyone is against you. I'm as close as you are going to get to a liberty absolutist... sure I don't like giving those liberties to Corporations, but you bet your sorry fat asses, that it will be ME, and people LIKE ME, in those courts, on the side of the ACLU, on the side of the farmer who has lost his land, on the side of the small business who is being replaced, on the side of the gun holders, the free speech absolutist, the religion freedom advocates, the protesters, and the people WHO DO MAKE A FUCKING DIFFERENCE.
You will see me on the side of the EFF, fighting against the closing of the NET.
You will see me on the side of even you, when you have finally realized that voting for the loss of others liberties, comes right back home to roost on your head.

So you folks can take your myopic vision of liberty and stick it straight up your wide goatse ass.

And I thought we were talking about Obama..., not Mr. Kade.

Kade
06-17-2008, 09:57 AM
Exactly. This is a very good summary of why I will not vote for Obama or McCain. I don't see that as anti-intuitive, nor do I really think it warrants such a sharp reaction as that.

Fine. I'm not going to egg you on to vote against your conscious...

I'm strongly against the GOP, that is where my battle lies... they are the biggest offenders.

Rangeley
06-17-2008, 09:59 AM
Your battle should lie with anyone who will reduce liberty. An R or a D neither adds nor detracts from their anti-liberty stances.

weslinder
06-17-2008, 10:01 AM
On Abortion:
On War:
Paul: Pull out.
Obama: Pull out soon.
McCain: 100 years.


You do know that currently, Ron Paul, Barack Obama, and McCain support withdrawing troops at the rate that is currently happening, right? And among the three, only Ron Paul supports bringing all of them home? The only difference between Obama's withdrawal plan and McCain's withdrawal plan is whether the 30,000 troops that we leave in Iraq for the foreseeable future will be on "temporary" bases or "permananent" bases.

1000-points-of-fright
06-17-2008, 10:09 AM
On War:
Obama: Pull out soon. No he won't.


On Judges:
Obama: Pro-liberty judges. You mean activist judges who legislate from the bench?


Gun rights:
Obama: Constitutional right to bear arms. You're fucking high. Obama thinks that concealed carry should be illegal.

Kade, You are BATSHIT.

I've said this before and I guess I'll have to say it again. We're fucked no matter which of these jerks gets into office. Not so much cuz of them, but congress too.

Barring any October surprises or screw ups, Obama is going to win. The question is by how much. If he just barely wins, the GOP won't change course. If enough disgruntled conservatives vote third party and McCain gets beaten like a coke whore, then the GOP might start to think about what went wrong.

Actually, it doesn't matter if either of them wins by a small margin. As long as the third parties get a big chunk of the votes. Imagine the shit storm that would occur if Jerk #1 wins with 40%, Jerk #2 gets 37%, and the LP and CP combined get 23%.

Don't like Barr or Baldwin? Doesn't matter, they won't win. What matters is how many votes MCCain and Obama DON'T get.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 10:12 AM
I've said this before and I guess I'll have to say it again. We're fucked no matter which of these jerks gets into office. No so much cuz of them, but congress too.

Barring any October surprises or screw ups, Obama is going to win. The question is by how much. If he just barely wins, the GOP won't change course. If enough disgruntled conservatives vote third party and McCain gets beaten like a coke whore, then the GOP might start to think about what went wrong.

Actually, it doesn't matter if either of them wins by a small margin. As long as the third parties get a big chunk of the votes. Imagine the shit storm that would occur if Jerk #1 wins with 40%, Jerk #2 gets 37%, and the LP and CP combined get 23%.

Don't like Barr or Baldwin? Doesn't matter, they won't win. What matters is how many votes MCCain and Obama DON'T get.

personally i think what matters is making sure that mccain does not win, do what you gotta do,but thats why some will vote for obama. I don't agree ,but ill dam sure drive a voter to the voting booth as long as they do not vote for mccain.

traviskicks
06-17-2008, 10:14 AM
Obama is a socialist; he is opposite everything Ron Paul stands for, I would be very dissapointed to see Ron Paul supporters moving in that direction.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 10:16 AM
Obama is a socialist; he is opposite everything Ron Paul stands for, I would be very dissapointed to see Ron Paul supporters moving in that direction.

more dissapointed if they vote for mccain , I'm planning on voting barr or baldwin ,but im still waiting , 3 months is a lifetime

dannno
06-17-2008, 10:18 AM
For you traditional conservatives who are leaning McCain over Obama, think about it this way. What taxpayer money Obama will "waste" in our country, McCain will waste on bombs to blow up other countries. Now I know Obama isn't on track with Dr. Paul's non-interventionist foreign policy, but he is much less of a war monger than McCain.

Even if McCain spends slightly less than Obama overall, I think it comes down to whether our economy is worth the deaths of innocent people overseas.

People who are voting for Obama would rather see our economy suffer than see a big blood bath overseas due to our lack of compassion in choosing a leader. They don't want the blood on their hands.

btw, I'm not voting for Obama or McCain. Period. I am passively rooting for Obama over McCain, though. I would really like to see some other contenders get the attention of the American people and get them to think about the issues a little bit harder.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 10:20 AM
Fine. I'm not going to egg you on to vote against your conscious...

I'm strongly against the GOP, that is where my battle lies... they are the biggest offenders.

Kade your alright to me:) ,anyone who is against mccain is a friend of mine;)

you going to minnesota?? you should

billjarrett
06-17-2008, 10:22 AM
People who are voting for Obama would rather see our economy suffer than see a big blood bath overseas due to our lack of compassion in choosing a leader. They don't want the blood on their hands.


And why do you think Obama wouldn't be a bloodbath? You don't think he would jump at the chance to get boots on the ground in Darfur, Myanmar, possibly Tibet, etc if the situation presented itself?

He's not anti-war. He's anti-THIS-war. Dems just have a different slate of countries they'd prefer to be bombing.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 10:22 AM
For you conservatives who are leaning McCain, think about it this way. What taxpayer money Obama will "waste" in our country, McCain will waste on bombs to blow up other countries. Now I know Obama isn't on track with Dr. Paul's non-interventionist foreign policy, but he is much less of a war monger than McCain.

Even if McCain spends slightly less than Obama overall, I think it comes down to whether our economy is worth the deaths of innocent people overseas.

People who are voting for Obama would rather see our economy suffer than see a big blood bath overseas due to our lack of compassion in choosing a leader. They don't want the blood on their hands.

btw, I'm not voting for Obama or McCain. Period. I am passively rooting for Obama over McCain, though. I would really like to see some other contenders get the attention of the American people and get them to think about the issues a little bit harder.



+1,000,000,000 hell ,on election day ill make sure to call all the dems i know to go vote. the least i could do for mccain;)

Todd
06-17-2008, 10:24 AM
Paul offered change.....Obama offers change


:rolleyes:

Todd
06-17-2008, 10:28 AM
Well anyone who thinks Obama is better than McCain is an idiot.
It's that simple. I cannot believe their are Ron Paul supporters that fail to look at Obama's voting record.

Agreed. Here is a video clip of the the above average Obama supporter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGeu_4Ekx-o

so what do you think the Average Obama supporter knows?


Personally both are a cut from the same cloth. Screw both of them this November.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 10:28 AM
And why do you think Obama wouldn't be a bloodbath? You don't think he would jump at the chance to get boots on the ground in Darfur, Myanmar, possibly Tibet, etc if the situation presented itself?

He's not anti-war. He's anti-THIS-war. Dems just have a different slate of countries they'd prefer to be bombing.

are you pushing for mccain? look i agree vote for anyone but a dem or republican,but we still need the dems to demolish mccain,so if i can help a dem out with a helping hand i will. I KNOW ONE THING I WILL CAMPAIGN AGAINST McCain. if your trying to sway pissed off republicans and democrats to vote for baldwin or barr, you have to understand their hatred of the republican party now and hatred of mccain. If you want them to come back to what you believe in,then we need to wake up some republican delegates in the next 4 months or start picking up the gop pieces after the election, or work our asses off and get RON PAUL the nomination on convention day, the choice is ours but debating over obama and mccain is pointless, they both SUCK,

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 10:30 AM
anyone who thinks mccain is better then obama is an idiot as well, the street goes both ways

voytechs
06-17-2008, 10:30 AM
Ignorance. And it's in abundance.

To vote for Republican or Democrat means you don't know shit as to why the US is in the trouble it is. One party, two faces of evil. Period. People who want Obama, want to re-plug into the matrix... sorry guys, doesn't work like that. You're stuck with us, so put some boots on and start kicking ass, or gtfo the battle field.

+1 :)

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 10:31 AM
Paul offered change.....Obama offers change


:rolleyes:

spare some change???:D

voytechs
06-17-2008, 10:31 AM
McCain/Obama are two sides of the same coin, and it's a coin minted by the Federal Reserve that's going to lose what little value it has very soon.

Ron Paul is a gold coin. Barr, Baldwin, etc. are silver coins....not the real deal, but certainly better than what the other two are trying to sell us. Paul speaks highly of them both in interviews and I trust his judgment...unless he formally endorses one over the other, that's the decision I face in November.

Well put!

Todd
06-17-2008, 10:34 AM
I can't believe there are still people on this board who would still consider Obama or McCain in any way representing a valid choice this year. I had thought the mass exodus after Super Tuesday sent all the Obama leaners away.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 10:36 AM
:rolleyes:i cannot harp my parents for voting obama, as much as i want them to vote for baldwin or barr . I know there fear of mccain will make them vote obama,so we have to make sure we change the nominee of the republican party by sept 1st ,if we fail, we just have to keep working for the next election, 3-4 months is a long long time , i personally do not think mccain will be the nominee but call me crazy

SnappleLlama
06-17-2008, 10:36 AM
I'm voting for Ron Paul. I've never found a politician I've agreed with 100%. It would be a personal shame for me to vote for someone else.

dannno
06-17-2008, 10:37 AM
And why do you think Obama wouldn't be a bloodbath? You don't think he would jump at the chance to get boots on the ground in Darfur, Myanmar, possibly Tibet, etc if the situation presented itself?

He's not anti-war. He's anti-THIS-war. Dems just have a different slate of countries they'd prefer to be bombing.

I know, I agree and that's why I won't support him.

However, McCain is still a bigger war monger than Obama.

cradle2graveconservative
06-17-2008, 10:40 AM
Edit

IRO-bot
06-17-2008, 10:42 AM
[QUOTE=malkusm;1520572]McCain/Obama are two sides of the same coin, and it's a coin minted by the Federal Reserve that's going to lose what little value it has very soon.QUOTE]

Woot I found my new sig!!!

Aratus
06-17-2008, 10:42 AM
this ike verses jfk thingie? i do not jest, i hint!
mccain is rather like gen'l eisenhower in a good way...

and thinking of jfk...lbj actually got more legislation passed!!!
hhh was more new deal liberal at times than...jfk actually!

Eric21ND
06-17-2008, 10:44 AM
If I lived in a swing state (Ohio, Iowa, New Mexico, Nevada, Florida, etc) I would now vote for Obama. Never will the corrupt GOP get a dime or a vote from me, especially after the RP backlash we all had to deal with....they are the epitome of ignorance.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 10:50 AM
If I lived in a swing state (Ohio, Iowa, New Mexico, Nevada, Florida, etc) I would now vote for Obama. Never will the corrupt GOP get a dime or a vote from me, especially after the RP backlash we all had to deal with....they are the epitome of ignorance.

now im looking to vote for barr or baldwin,but ill make that decision on voting day. I'm still waiting for sept 2nd;)
but if i was there id drive you to the voting booth proudly ,knowing your not voting mccain,no matter what peeps say here in thread;)

SLSteven
06-17-2008, 10:59 AM
Hell I'd be more inclined to vote Obama just to spite the man.



Don't cut off the nose to spite the face. Vote 3rd party!

billjarrett
06-17-2008, 11:06 AM
I KNOW ONE THING I WILL CAMPAIGN AGAINST McCain.


I hate him just as much as Obama. I'm campaigning against both. The American people won't wake up until they realize both suck (many of them have already), but more importantly, that it doesn't need to be that way.

This isn't about an election.

SLSteven
06-17-2008, 11:15 AM
On redistribution of wealth and central planning.

Obama: the more the better, like Cuba

Kade
06-17-2008, 11:20 AM
You do know that currently, Ron Paul, Barack Obama, and McCain support withdrawing troops at the rate that is currently happening, right? And among the three, only Ron Paul supports bringing all of them home? The only difference between Obama's withdrawal plan and McCain's withdrawal plan is whether the 30,000 troops that we leave in Iraq for the foreseeable future will be on "temporary" bases or "permananent" bases.

I support Ron Paul for President. Unfortunately, he is out. Did you miss this? Why are some of you continuing to beat the same skinned cat, over and over... I get it. Ron Paul is stupendous. Write him in. That's great.

As for me, I'm going to prevent McCain.

newbitech
06-17-2008, 11:20 AM
I don't think any Ron Paul supporter is going to vote for Obama based on principle. All you people who keep spewing hatred for this decision making process are not adding an ounce of substance to this debate. I can't decide if the people making these comments are immature kids that I wouldn't respond to or immature adults that I would ask to answer a few questions.

Well here are the questions anyways. And please, I am not questioning those of us who are sincerely trying to decide what is best. I have filtered out the garbage and found compelling arguments for each possible scenario. I just want the people who are screaming and accusing to be responsible and post there reasoned philosophical answers to these questions. In other words, answer them as if YOU WERE REPRESENTING RON PAUL. I don't think thats asking to much from the people who are taking the liberty to scream and bash others decision making process. Do You?

1.) If you are voting on principle, how can you do anything other than write in Ron Paul? And then how do you do that when Ron Paul himself said that wouldn't be productive.

2.) If you are voting to promote liberty (one of the 3rd parties) how do you do that knowing that CFL and Ron Paul are not going to get behind a 3rd party because that would destroy the work that has been done over the past year to take over the Republican Party?

3.) If you are voting conscience, how do you do that knowing that a split conscience vote is a sign of weakness for the revolution.

4.) If you are voting strategy, how do you do that knowing that McCain and Obama are likely two sides of the same coin? The lesser of two evils is still evil argument.

5.) If you are going fishing, how do you do that and still claim to be politically active?

6.) And finally, there are no correct answers, we lost this round. None of the above decisions will satisfy ALL of the strict guidelines we learned from the Revolution Campaign. That being said, do you want to try to continue to win over Obama and McCain voters (sheep) and if so, how do you do that by acting like a complete ASS when someone decides to do something you don't like?

SLSteven
06-17-2008, 11:32 AM
All you people who keep spewing hatred for this decision making process are not adding an ounce of substance to this debate. I can't decide if the people making these comments are immature kids that I wouldn't respond to or immature adults that I would ask to answer a few questions.

Well here are the questions anyways. And please, I am not questioning those of us who are sincerely trying to decide what is best. I have filtered out the garbage and found compelling arguments for each possible scenario. I just want the people who are screaming and accusing to be responsible and post there reasoned philosophical answers to these questions. In other words, answer them as if YOU WERE REPRESENTING RON PAUL. I don't think thats asking to much from the people who are taking the liberty to scream and bash others decision making process. Do You?

1.) If you are voting on principle, how can you do anything other than write in Ron Paul? And then how do you do that when Ron Paul himself said that wouldn't be productive.

2.) If you are voting to promote liberty (one of the 3rd parties) how do you do that knowing that CFL and Ron Paul are not going to get behind a 3rd party because that would destroy the work that has been done over the past year to take over the Republican Party?

3.) If you are voting conscience, how do you do that knowing that a split conscience vote is a sign of weakness for the revolution.

4.) If you are voting strategy, how do you do that knowing that McCain and Obama are likely two sides of the same coin? The lesser of two evils is still evil argument.

5.) If you are going fishing, how do you do that and still claim to be politically active?

6.) And finally, there are no correct answers, we lost this round. None of the above decisions will satisfy ALL of the strict guidelines we learned from the Revolution Campaign. That being said, do you want to try to continue to win over Obama and McCain voters (sheep) and if so, how do you do that by acting like a complete ASS when someone decides to do something you don't like?

Excellent anaylsis! We need to continue to educate and advance our ideas. Lets not expend too much energy (especially negative) on worrying about our vote casting. Its a long time till November.

Kade
06-17-2008, 11:33 AM
Excellent anaylsis! We need to continue to educate and advance our ideas. Lets not expend too much energy (especially negative) on worrying about our vote casting. Its a long time till November.

Four months?

SLSteven
06-17-2008, 11:38 AM
Four months?

yes. When you go into the booth 4 months from now...make the best decision you can. In the meantime, keep spreading the message.

cska80
06-17-2008, 11:38 AM
To be honest, I think this forum as well as others have Obama trolls who are just trying to pull votes over from us. If you're honestly going to vote for Obama, you either didn't learn anything in this movement or you never had a clue to begin with. To draw comparisons between Obama and Paul is like trying to say Thomas Jefferson and Karl Marx were one in the same.

I'll be voting third party even if that means Obama wins. I'm no longer endorsing this government monopoly over both of the dominant political parties in this country.

Kade
06-17-2008, 12:01 PM
To be honest, I think this forum as well as others have Obama trolls who are just trying to pull votes over from us. If you're honestly going to vote for Obama, you either didn't learn anything in this movement or you never had a clue to begin with. To draw comparisons between Obama and Paul is like trying to say Thomas Jefferson and Karl Marx were one in the same.

I'll be voting third party even if that means Obama wins. I'm no longer endorsing this government monopoly over both of the dominant political parties in this country.

Obama trolls, especially the one's with over 2,000 posts who have been here since the beginning are annoying me too!!!!

Have you read Jefferson or Marx?


High and mighty... I get it.

Wah, wah, wah. Cry, cry. Cry.

You guys are a bunch of f^%*& babies. Every attempt I make at even a civil conversation ends in a flame war, ad hominems, and the constant, never ending conspiracy bullshit invoking Bilderberg, CFR, New World Order, one world governments, socialism, Maoism, Stalinism, Fascism, 911 truthiness, or any other nonsense that has been mentioned...

Most of you waltz around here with misquotes in your sigs, an offense that is so utterly intolerable that I usually will pm you, to which most of you tend to ignore.

Few if none of you have read Marx. The only thing you can do is post a link to some neo-con convert at best, who did the critique for you.

Few if none of you read Jefferson. At least not that I can see...

Yet, this is it... you make broad sweeping generalizations (much like this actually..), and then assume all sorts of fantastic garbage in the name of some petty offense at the central idea and case I've made.


How about liberty troll? Does that sit well with your bloated conservative worldview?

Yea, I like liberty. The kind that doesn't sit well with you... the kind that let's mothers choose when to be mothers, the kind that lets women and men have rampant sex with their own gender, the kind that allows me (and you) to rant and rave publicly without being thrown in some foreign gulag. The kind of liberty that allows you to petition for why you are being held. The kind of liberty that allows me to study and research what I want. The kind of liberty that allows me to have as many kids as I want, to have as much sex as I want, to ingest in my body whatever I want, to protest, to worship or not worship, to be free from random uncontrollable burdens on my personhood....

If I am a troll, I am a troll for liberty. Bitch and cry as you might, few of you have done anything to convince me in your collective bitchfest to me, that you even care.... to you, liberty is the right of corporations to own and patent your life. The right for people to have enormous mounds of worthless paper. The right for our government to go stomping all over other countries, because our oil barons need more cash.

I'm tired of it... I really am... Maybe I don't get it, but you folks sure make it real hard, and offer very little in intellectual inspiration. I still stick with it, I'm still here, and not over at the grassroots Socialist movements... if you want to reject me, fine, I'm better off an outcast. I'll be hear arguing and debating the most clownish of you until my ass is booted.

weslinder
06-17-2008, 12:07 PM
I support Ron Paul for President. Unfortunately, he is out. Did you miss this? Why are some of you continuing to beat the same skinned cat, over and over... I get it. Ron Paul is stupendous. Write him in. That's great.

As for me, I'm going to prevent McCain.

Do you not understand that Obama is functionally the same as McCain on the War in Iraq and general foreign policy? The rhetoric is different, but the policy proposals are functionally identical. And for those of us who love liberty, Obama is even worse than an already putrid McCain on issues centered around economic freedom and personal liberty.

I'm not writing in Ron Paul, but if you are voting for Obama to prevent McCain, you deserve what you get. Unfortunately, your vote to reinforce bad behavior hurts us all.

Kade
06-17-2008, 12:16 PM
Do you not understand that Obama is functionally the same as McCain on the War in Iraq and general foreign policy? The rhetoric is different, but the policy proposals are functionally identical. And for those of us who love liberty, Obama is even worse than an already putrid McCain on issues centered around economic freedom and personal liberty.

I'm not writing in Ron Paul, but if you are voting for Obama to prevent McCain, you deserve what you get. Unfortunately, your vote to reinforce bad behavior hurts us all.

No, they are not. Look at what your precious "conservative" judges have done in the past 8 years...

Choosing between the Hypocrite, The Socialist, The Fascist, or the Theocrat.

Hahah. Laughable.

newyearsrevolution08
06-17-2008, 12:17 PM
Don't vote for obama or mccain, pick a 3rd party no matter who it is and lets focus on the 2010 and 2012 elections by getting those around us educated.

Obama is just as evil as mccain no matter what type of pretty bow the asshole puts around the package. He is an evil man who will continue the war BUT will also socialize American as far as he can and then HOPEFULLY things will turn to shit and we can take the nation back.

Or Obama could change his ways and actually follow the constitution but I don't see that happening.

Stop thinking republican or democrat and start thinking "war policy", "tax reform", "gun rights" and so on. It is the issues that matter and not some stupid poll or what the "presumptive" anything is in things like this.

Don't let the talking box in your living room dictate who you vote for.

Obama is Mccain
Mccain is Obama

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 12:17 PM
Do you not understand that Obama is functionally the same as McCain on the War in Iraq and general foreign policy? The rhetoric is different, but the policy proposals are functionally identical. And for those of us who love liberty, Obama is even worse than an already putrid McCain on issues centered around economic freedom and personal liberty.

I'm not writing in Ron Paul, but if you are voting for Obama to prevent McCain, you deserve what you get. Unfortunately, your vote to reinforce bad behavior hurts us all.

do you not understand we all hate mccain ,especially after the treatment of republicans by the gop/mccain folks.

screw mccain and the train he came in on, some might like obama but so what. Campaign for Baldwin or Barr ,but bashing people for voting for obama serves no purpose other then to piss everyone off, like i said before I'm voting for barr or baldwin ,but i will dam sure campaign against mccain AND IF THAT MEANS DRIVING A DEMOCRAT TO THE POLLS TO VOTE ,so be it, WHO'S VOTE ARE YOU TRYING TO WIN ANY WAY?? if your asking someone to vote third party but they feel like if they do it hands election to mccain,then your not going to stop them and to be honest id perfer they vote for obama then mccain, do i agree with their vote? NO,but do i encourage them not to vote for Mccain? HELL YA....


the only way to change their mind is to get busy the next few months and wake the sleeping republican delegates up, then if we get mccain off the ticket and RON PAUL ON it,until then bitching about obama is like bitching about mccain,but we are in the republican party ,so lets keep opening some republican eyes we can worry about obama votes on election day...

if we vote 3rd party we get what we get to ,which is obama and mccain, so in the end screw mccain...

newyearsrevolution08
06-17-2008, 12:31 PM
Keep educating the public about mccain and obama BUT make sure they get active by voting 3rd party STILL.

We still want a solid showing on the voting day BUT not for the two so called "presumptive presidential candidates".

I will be voting for ANYONE besides mccain or obama myself and hope others do the same. Lets show them that Americans are not happy with the two candidates that were pushed to the top.

Low voter turn out only helps them but a larger turnout with many votes going 3rd party says something completely different. They have a war on their hands with this one.

Kade
06-17-2008, 12:36 PM
Keep educating the public about mccain and obama BUT make sure they get active by voting 3rd party STILL.

We still want a solid showing on the voting day BUT not for the two so called "presumptive presidential candidates".

I will be voting for ANYONE besides mccain or obama myself and hope others do the same. Lets show them that Americans are not happy with the two candidates that were pushed to the top.

Low voter turn out only helps them but a larger turnout with many votes going 3rd party says something completely different. They have a war on their hands with this one.

Should I vote for the Theocrat or the Hypocrite then?

Haha... right.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 12:38 PM
Keep educating the public about mccain and obama BUT make sure they get active by voting 3rd party STILL.

We still want a solid showing on the voting day BUT not for the two so called "presumptive presidential candidates".

I will be voting for ANYONE besides mccain or obama myself and hope others do the same. Lets show them that Americans are not happy with the two candidates that were pushed to the top.

Low voter turn out only helps them but a larger turnout with many votes going 3rd party says something completely different. They have a war on their hands with this one.

let's get to work:) 4 months is a long time and we can still write the history books;)

Rangeley
06-17-2008, 12:38 PM
Yea, I like liberty. The kind that doesn't sit well with you... the kind that let's mothers choose when to be mothers, the kind that lets women and men have rampant sex with their own gender, the kind that allows me (and you) to rant and rave publicly without being thrown in some foreign gulag. The kind of liberty that allows you to petition for why you are being held. The kind of liberty that allows me to study and research what I want. The kind of liberty that allows me to have as many kids as I want, to have as much sex as I want, to ingest in my body whatever I want, to protest, to worship or not worship, to be free from random uncontrollable burdens on my personhood....
All of those certainly sit well with me, with the first being an exception only for its implication. Obviously, we disagree as to what constitutes human life. I simply use the scientific definition - thats good enough for me. And I don't think its going out on a limb to say that most people would say the same here. I do not believe people have a right to violate the rights of another, the right to life included.


If I am a troll, I am a troll for liberty. Bitch and cry as you might, few of you have done anything to convince me in your collective bitchfest to me, that you even care.... to you, liberty is the right of corporations to own and patent your life. The right for people to have enormous mounds of worthless paper. The right for our government to go stomping all over other countries, because our oil barons need more cash.
I don't think anyone here would say that that is liberty, I could be wrong though. But I certainly do not think you are a troll.


I'm tired of it... I really am... Maybe I don't get it, but you folks sure make it real hard, and offer very little in intellectual inspiration. I still stick with it, I'm still here, and not over at the grassroots Socialist movements... if you want to reject me, fine, I'm better off an outcast. I'll be hear arguing and debating the most clownish of you until my ass is booted.
I can understand that you want to take down the larger of two evils. I doubt anyone here would disagree about taking down evil. There are, however, a lot of people here who do not want to support the "lesser of two evils" to do so. Evil in this context doesn't denote some religious concept, but, to put it simply, government coercion. It is evil for the government to force you to live your life the way they see fit. Its evil for someone to tell you you cannot marry someone you love - its evil for someone to tell you you cannot spend your money on the charities you want. Government not only telling you how to run your life, but forcing you to live your life the way they want is absolutely evil, regardless of their usually good intentions.

This has nothing to do with conspiracies. Obama is a bad choice, not because of some secret handshake he allegedly possesses, but because of his philosophy that the government should tell people how to live their lives. He has a different opinion of how this power should be used then McCain, but his belief in the use of this power is something which I could never condone.

There are people in both major parties who have the right philosophy of government - that it should defend liberties - and there are people who have the wrong philosophy. When both parties offer up candidates who have the wrong philosophy, I won't say "oh, you got me! I guess now I have to support this philosophy and go for the lesser of two evils!" I will say sorry, I can support neither of these candidates because of this fundamental philosophical disagreement - and I will vote for a candidate who has the right philosophy. Only when people do this will the parties get the message - if people continue to vote for the lesser of two evils, then the only thing that will be made clear is that this philosophical disagreement is negotiable - its no big deal. That is not a message I want to send, and it is not a message that helps this movement whatsoever.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 12:41 PM
takes kade and newyearsrevolution08 and takes them to the corner and picks them both up and shakes like rag dolls, then sits them back on the ground for a group hug:)

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 12:45 PM
For right now obama and mccain are pointless, we have 4 months to open the gop's eyes .lets focus on that till sept 2nd ,then after that we can have a cage match obama vs mccain and we can lock them in a cage for life..


CFL remember Ron Paul and the movement, obama and mccain are pointless to this ,so screw them both till after sept 2nd;)

newyearsrevolution08
06-17-2008, 12:48 PM
For right now obama and mccain are pointless, we have 4 months to open the gop's eyes .lets focus on that till sept 2nd ,then after that we can have a cage match obama vs mccain and we can lock them in a cage for life..


CFL remember Ron Paul and the movement, obama and mccain are pointless to this ,so screw them both till after sept 2nd;)

Um kind of the point of this topic though.... Only reason I am remarking. We have many topics about waking up the gop among other amazing topics BUT those were not really apart of this one...

I would however love to see that cage match.

Obama vs. Mccain

I know mccain would lose terribly either by hear attack or surrender. Not sure which :D

Fight for liberty

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 12:56 PM
Um kind of the point of this topic though.... Only reason I am remarking. We have many topics about waking up the gop among other amazing topics BUT those were not really apart of this one...

I would however love to see that cage match.

Obama vs. Mccain

I know mccain would lose terribly either by hear attack or surrender. Not sure which :D

Fight for liberty

oo if mtv had their clay fight for this one:)

4RP08inKCMO
06-17-2008, 01:25 PM
On War:
Paul: Pull out.
Obama: Pull out soon.
McCain: 100 years.


Ron Paul's foreign policy was the main reason he gained popularity and has become the number reason why I continue to support his message.

Obama's foreign policy, on the other hand, is anything but humble. You are probably aware of this but I'm still going to point it out:

-He has voted for $300 BILLION in war funding since 2005.
-He will not pledge that if elected he will pull the troops out of Iraq by 2013. That's not "soon" enough for me.
-He wants to escalate the war in Afghanistan.
-He never talks about the 700 unnecessary U.S. military bases in 130 countries.

Sources:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/03/22/obama_defends_votes_in_favor_of_iraq_funding/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aTjmYfhPt-0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=00X6I1sHWeQ

I noticed on your insultingly bias comparison you forgot to list any of the issues Paul and Obama really disagree on. One example:

On health care:
Ron Paul: Free market
Obama: Universal health care
McCain: Who knows?

I think a few quotes from the beginning of The Revolution: A Manifesto are needed here:

"Every election cycle we are treated to candidates who promise us "change," and 2008 has been no different. But in the American political lexicon, "change" always means more of the same: more government, more looting of Americans, more inflation, more police-state measures, more unnecessary war, and more centralization of power."

"And so every four years we are treated to the same tired, predictable routine: two candidates with few disagreements on fundamentals pretend that they represent dramatically different philosophies of government."

"With the exceptions of Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel, even the Democrats who postured as antiwar candidates for the 2008 primary elections are not especially opposed to needless wars...But liberals are told that they must support these candidates, and so they do, hoping for the best. And nothing changes."

I've read many of your posts Kade and I agree with a lot of what you say. But if Obama wants my vote, he and his supporters need to do a lot more than just tell me why McCain and the GOP are bad. Obama will gain my support when he starts sincerely talking about reducing government spending.

newyearsrevolution08
06-17-2008, 01:27 PM
Should I vote for the Theocrat or the Hypocrite then?

Haha... right.

flip a coin man.:eek:

MikeStanart
06-17-2008, 01:31 PM
Even if "Obama's Foreign Policy = Paul's Foreign Policy"......

That would be like going out on a date with a MAN, because he's wearing a dress. (if you're a dude)





But the fact is: We can't prove Obama's FP is anything like Pauls...


So a Vote for Obama = same as Mccain.

Either way, we're in trouble.

LibertyRevolution
06-17-2008, 01:34 PM
I will vote for who ever Ron Paul endorses. But if he endorses no one, I will be voting for obama as my anti-mccain vote.
Given the 2 options of Socialism or Fascism, I will be choosing Socialism.
I want Mccain and the GOP to get crushed in november. The larger the gap between the republicans and the democrats the better.

Kade
06-17-2008, 01:44 PM
Ron Paul's foreign policy was the main reason he gained popularity and has become the number reason why I continue to support his message.

Obama's foreign policy, on the other hand, is anything but humble. You are probably aware of this but I'm still going to point it out:

-He has voted for $300 BILLION in war funding since 2005.
-He will not pledge that he will pull the troops out of Iraq by 2013.
-He wants to escalate the war in Afghanistan.
-He never talks about the 700 unnecessary U.S. military bases in 130 countries.

Sources:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/03/22/obama_defends_votes_in_favor_of_iraq_funding/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aTjmYfhPt-0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=00X6I1sHWeQ

I noticed on your insultingly bias list you forgot to list any of the issues Paul and Obama really disagree on. One example:

On health care:
Ron Paul: Free market
Obama: Universal health care
McCain: Who the fuck knows

I think a few quotes from the beginning of The Revolution: A Manifesto are needed here:

"Every election cycle we are treated to candidates who promise us "change," and 2008 has been no different. But in the American political lexicon, "change" always means more of the same: more government, more looting of Americans, more inflation, more police-state measures, more unnecessary war, and more centralization of power."

"And so every four years we are treated to the same tired, predictable routine: two candidates with few disagreements on fundamentals pretend that they represent dramatically different philosophies of government."

"With the exceptions of Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel, even the Democrats who postured as antiwar candidates for the 2008 primary elections are not especially opposed to needless wars...But liberals are told that they must support these candidates, and so they do, hoping for the best. And nothing changes."

I've read many of your posts Kade and I agree with a lot of what you say. But if Obama wants my vote, he and his supporters need to do a lot more than just tell me why McCain and the GOP are bad. Obama will gain my support when he starts sincerely talking about reducing government spending.

Thank you for the more rational response.

I don't support Obama because I agree with him fiscally, although he did support legislation that has passed (which is more important than the 1242523 bills that don't) that have helped to reduce spending and give more transparency:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:s.2590.es:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:s.2261:

I don't like McCain's idea of a "good" judge. Period. I'm a student of the law, and an ardent supporter of legitimate English common law, and judges like Roberts and Alito are sitting jokes.

I don't like McCain's stances on ANY social issues, and his support for strong policing policies.

I also don't see how McCain plans on balancing the budget, and paying back the deficit. His plan won't do it...

McCain would allow school prayer in federally funded schools and the display of the Ten Commandments.

Supports amendment to ban flag burning.

Allows tax subsidies to companies that move jobs overseas.

Wants more death penalty.

ACLU rating of 0%.

Voted for some odd billion dollar spending on finding drugs coming from the border... support stricter penalties and laws on drugs.

Strongly supports internet censorship.


Those issues alone are enough. Sorry.

Barney
06-17-2008, 01:45 PM
Now that I see Dr .Paul has asked us, as supporters, not to stage a right-in (see what I did there :rolleyes:) I've seen a couple people spring up and say they're going to vote for Mr. Obama. While I

respect their right to be wron...erm...choose whomever they wish, I'd like some clarification as to, "why?" Mr. Obama and Dr. Paul have almost nothing in common policy-wise, and are, in fact, on the

exact opposite ends of the political spectrum. I'm not saying this as an endorsement for McCain, I'll probably have to cut off the hand that eventually winds up filling in that arrow (or bubble or whatever

the hell thing we'll have to do this election, it'll certainly confuse some moron somewhere), but I need to know why there's a lean towards Mr. Obama. Is there some information, some key piece of

evidence, some needle in the haystack that should cause me to lean the opposite way of the way I've been leaning for the last 20 years? Help this troubled conservative!

As a one time fan of Obama, I can tell you that much of the appeal was his initial opposition to the Iraq war. And to his credit, he did make some fiercely critical speeches at a time when the majority of the country was sick with war fever. And so, he is seen as an antiwar candidate even though his voting record in the Senate is anything but.

I suspect most RP supporter who contemplate voting Obama see him as a lesser of two evil to McCain. But Dr Paul has taught me never to vote the lesser of two evil,...ever again.

Voting Obama or McCain only endorses the two party fraud! If you can't find a 3rd party candidate to your liking then write in Ron Paul. Better to have the establishment jump through a few hoops to nullify your vote than participate in the 2 party charade. If nothing else, you'll sleep better.

speciallyblend
06-17-2008, 01:52 PM
CFL www.campaignforliberty.com ,unless mccain or obama sign this list, they are pointless:)

libertarian4321
06-17-2008, 01:53 PM
ACLU voting record on civil liberties:
Paul: 67%
Obama: 82%
McCain: 0%

[/B].

Is that 0% for McCain correct? Geez, I knew the guy was a loyal storm trooper, but I didn't realize he was that bad.

Although, to be fair, McCain is soft on the drug war- well, he is when his heiress wife steals drugs to feed her habit (he's a "do as I say, not as I do" sort of "conservative"- like Limbaugh)

libertarian4321
06-17-2008, 02:02 PM
You need to stop bullshiting yourself with all of this analysis. Why bother coming up with all the explanations as to why you must vote for Obama, and then later on admit we're screwed either way?

Vote by your conscious, fuck what other Americans do in the election, fuck the odds of a third party candidate actually winning.

Ask yourself... Who would be the best President, and leave it at that. Its really that simple.

Well, thats a simplistic analysis- and its what I've always done in the past- voted my conscience, got 0.4% (Libertarian) and watched Bush run amok for 8 years.

I'm not sure we have the luxury of allowing the greater evil to win this time. The fact that there appears to be no real liberty candidate this time (unless someone can convince me that Barr is a reformed neocon) makes it easier to vote against the greater evil this time.

Honestly, I think the Republicans need to get SMACKED this year or they will never change course- if they lose 20+ seats in congress and McCain gets righteously hammered, maybe the more rational Republicans will help us reel in the neocons nuts and get the Republican Party back to where it should be!

BTW, I just heard that McCain flip flopped on offshore drilling- hes now "for it" (like Hillary, McCain will say or do anything to win). Well, he got this one right (for now).

libertarian4321
06-17-2008, 02:04 PM
This thread is useless for me, and its 'interesting' reading the back and forth of who to vote for. Brand 'X' or brand 'X' ...

I'm going to wait till AFTER the convention to see what shakes out.

I may end up writing in RON PAUL in blood.

Carry on.

Dude, that will really mess up the touch screen :)

Kade
06-17-2008, 02:08 PM
Is that 0% for McCain correct? Geez, I knew the guy was a loyal storm trooper, but I didn't realize he was that bad.

Although, to be fair, McCain is soft on the drug war- well, he is when his heiress wife steals drugs to feed her habit (he's a "do as I say, not as I do" sort of "conservative"- like Limbaugh)

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/john_mccain.htm

CtrL+F + "ACLU".

HOLLYWOOD
06-17-2008, 02:13 PM
Obama and his wife are SLEAZE-BALL Lawyers... don't most "Silver Tongued Devils" become Politicians?

Just like all the rest... they're all Racist, Fascist, Socialist, Elitist, etc...

Only change is changing the occupancy of the White House and websites... all the rest is the same:

FYI,

Did you know, in Dec 2007, Barak Obama took time out from his campaign to rewrite regulations on Nuclear Power Plant LAWS on Emergency Responses and notifications by the corporations that operate such plants. This was done for his big donors at Excelon (NUKE POWER CORP) based out of Illinois, like their La Salle plant.

NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER!

Kade
06-17-2008, 02:16 PM
Obama and his wife are SLEAZE-BALL Lawyers... don't most "Silver Tongued Devils" become Politicians?

Just like all the rest... they're all Racist, Fascist, Socialist, Elitist, etc...

Only change is changing the occupancy of the White House and websites... all the rest is the same:

FYI,

Did you know, in Dec 2007, Barak Obama took time out from his campaign to rewrite regulations on Nuclear Power Plant LAWS on Emergency Responses and notifications by the corporations that operate such plants. This was done for his big donors at Excelon (NUKE POWER CORP) based out of Illinois, like their La Salle plant.

NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER!

I did know that.

Do you know this website: http://www.usaspending.gov/ ?

Take a guess where that came from...

I don't see the valid points against the lesser of two evils here... I really do see McCain as far worse... I see a lot of jumping and screaming and angry ranting, but not much substance.

libertarian4321
06-17-2008, 02:17 PM
However, McCain is still a bigger war monger than Obama.

Agreed, and in choosing a "lesser evil", that is HUGE to me, because I'm a soldier.

McCain has too much of a gleam in his eye when he sings "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" or talks about our endless stay in Iraq.

I've got no problem with war when NECESSARY, but I won't support anyone who wants to fight STUPID wars- and the Iraq war is just a complete waste of lives and resources. Talk about fiscal mismanagement.

I know Obama has a lot of faults too, but McNasty is just over the top bad...

Kade
06-17-2008, 02:19 PM
Agreed, and in choosing a "lesser evil", that is HUGE to me, because I'm a soldier.

McCain has too much of a gleam in his eye when he sings "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" or talks about our endless stay in Iraq.

I've got no problem with war when NECESSARY, but I won't support anyone who wants to fight STUPID wars- and the Iraq war is just a complete waste of lives and resources. Talk about fiscal mismanagement.

I know Obama has a lot of faults too, but McNasty is just over the top bad...

Common sense is refreshing isn't it?

I upset a good deal of people here, obviously, but I do think we are in a real lesser of two evils situation. Obama may be much better than people give him credit for... and McCain is most certainly... well... yea.

libertarian4321
06-17-2008, 02:24 PM
Mmm...delicious bloodbath, exactly as I planned *evil cackle.* I'm surprised no one has pointed to Mr. Obama's complete inexperience in our political system.

LOL- I guess because most Ron Paul supporters are politically astute enough to realize that previous experience seems to have no bearing on success as President. In fact, there seems to be almost an inverse relationship.

Kennedy, Lincoln, Washington, and Teddy Roosevelt (3 of those guys are on Mt. Rushmore) had LESS political experience than Obama (as did Eisenhower and a number of other good, but not great, Presidents).

Nixon was probably the most experienced President we ever had- and he kinda sucked. LBJ as well. Bush Sr. had a lifetime of experience, but was a piss poor President. Carter was also very experienced.

Anyway, its obvious that there isn't a direct link between "experience" and success as President.

Catatonic
06-17-2008, 02:27 PM
How can you vote for Obama OR McCain? What the heck is going on here? And if you want to vote for EITHER of them, how can you criticize anyone voting for the other?

I'm on the fence about voting for Baldwin or Barr. Even Nader would be better than Obama OR McCain.


Barack Obama will require you to work. He is going to demand that you shed your cynicism. That you put down your divisions. That you come out of your isolation, that you move out of your comfort zones. That you push yourselves to be better. And that you engage. Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed.

Are you ready to be a slave?

crazyfingers
06-17-2008, 02:27 PM
Kennedy, Lincoln, Washington, and Teddy Roosevelt (3 of those guys are on Mt. Rushmore) had LESS political experience than Obama (as did Eisenhower and a number of other good, but not great, Presidents).


How can you imply that Lincoln was a great President? He did more to tarnish and destroy the Republic than any individual before or since.

libertarian4321
06-17-2008, 02:31 PM
oo if mtv had their clay fight for this one:)

Celebrity death match! Is Mills Lane still alive for the "Lets get it on!"?

Better yet, lets make it a tag team event: Bush/McCain vs Obama/Hillary.

And hope for a draw...

Four walk in, none leave- and American is a better place for it :)

Catatonic
06-17-2008, 02:31 PM
Agreed, and in choosing a "lesser evil", that is HUGE to me, because I'm a soldier.

McCain has too much of a gleam in his eye when he sings "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" or talks about our endless stay in Iraq.

I've got no problem with war when NECESSARY, but I won't support anyone who wants to fight STUPID wars- and the Iraq war is just a complete waste of lives and resources. Talk about fiscal mismanagement.

I know Obama has a lot of faults too, but McNasty is just over the top bad...

I feel bad for anyone that votes for Obama thinking he's more anti-war than McCain.

McCain is just more upfront about it.

libertarian4321
06-17-2008, 02:34 PM
I will vote for who ever Ron Paul endorses. But if he endorses no one, I will be voting for obama as my anti-mccain vote.
Given the 2 options of Socialism or Fascism, I will be choosing Socialism.
I want Mccain and the GOP to get crushed in november. The larger the gap between the republicans and the democrats the better.

I'm leaning the same way- if Ron endorses Barr, for example, I'll take that as evidence that Barr really has moved away from the dark (neocon) side and I'll vote for him.

Otherwise, I may just cast my first ever vote for a Democrat (in 27 years of voting) just to give an official "screw you!" to McWar, Bush, and the neocons...

weslinder
06-17-2008, 02:34 PM
Do you know this website: http://www.usaspending.gov/ ?

Senator Tom Coburn. He's been fighting for it since 1999, first in the House, then the Senate. Obama was wise to co-sponsor it, like McCain did. When Obama put his name on it, bloggers started paying attention and began to put pressure on Robert Byrd and Ted Stevens to stop holding it up in committee. Of course, since Coburn's a conservative, obviously Obama deserves all the credit.

Danke
06-17-2008, 02:44 PM
They both stink. But the house and senate will be democrats and they could potentially do more damage with Obama.

MikeStanart
06-17-2008, 02:46 PM
They both stink. But the house and senate will be democrats and they could potentially do more damage with Obama.

Yeah, this is my ONLY argument for preferring Mccain over Obama.

Just imagine ....every healthcare bill, every massive spending bill... WILL GET PASSED.

Hello! Universal Healthcare!




(thats not to say that Mccain will Veto any of them either)

Either way, we're F*d

JK/SEA
06-17-2008, 02:47 PM
Dude, that will really mess up the touch screen :)


I'm one of those who gets the Absentee ballot.

libertarian4321
06-17-2008, 02:48 PM
Common sense is refreshing isn't it?

I upset a good deal of people here, obviously, but I do think we are in a real lesser of two evils situation. Obama may be much better than people give him credit for... and McCain is most certainly... well... yea.

I think its kind of funny the way some people here are twisting themselves into knots trying to show that Obama is as much of a warmonger as McCain, despite the fact that no rational person really believes it. Obama is no Ron Paul, but he sure as Hell isn't John McWar, either.

I'll admit, part of the reason I despise McCain is because of his political stands (his warmongering, his anti-freedom stances, his fiscal irresponsibility), and part is because I think he is just a nasty, unethical low-life (translation: I just don't like the guy).

jmag
06-17-2008, 02:56 PM
"Obama is a hawk and an expansionist."
http://www.antiwar.com/pilger/?articleid=12983

Eric21ND
06-17-2008, 03:23 PM
Well, thats a simplistic analysis- and its what I've always done in the past- voted my conscience, got 0.4% (Libertarian) and watched Bush run amok for 8 years.

I'm not sure we have the luxury of allowing the greater evil to win this time. The fact that there appears to be no real liberty candidate this time (unless someone can convince me that Barr is a reformed neocon) makes it easier to vote against the greater evil this time.

Honestly, I think the Republicans need to get SMACKED this year or they will never change course- if they lose 20+ seats in congress and McCain gets righteously hammered, maybe the more rational Republicans will help us reel in the neocons nuts and get the Republican Party back to where it should be!

BTW, I just heard that McCain flip flopped on offshore drilling- hes now "for it" (like Hillary, McCain will say or do anything to win). Well, he got this one right (for now).

You are correct! McCain and the corrupt GOP machine need a good ass kicking this election. It will only help the Ron Paul movement if the neocons get sent packing.

Eric21ND
06-17-2008, 03:26 PM
I support Ron Paul for President. Unfortunately, he is out. Did you miss this? Why are some of you continuing to beat the same skinned cat, over and over... I get it. Ron Paul is stupendous. Write him in. That's great.

As for me, I'm going to prevent McCain.
I'm with you only playing prevent defense on McCain now that Ron is an after thought. Voting Obama would do the most damage to McCain, although a vote for Bob Barr is also a good way to monkey wrench McCain.

SeanEdwards
06-17-2008, 03:32 PM
"Obama is a hawk and an expansionist."
http://www.antiwar.com/pilger/?articleid=12983

It was the GOP machine that savaged Paul and pissed on his vision of a non-interventionist constitutional republic, not Obomba or the democrats.

My vote will be calculated to damage the GOP as much as I possibly can. I would vote for Charles Manson if he had the best chance of beating McCain. I want the GOP to crash and burn permanently. Let them join the Whigs in history's roundfile.

Razmear
06-17-2008, 04:06 PM
Been off the forums for a few days, read about half this thread before posting.

I will not be supporting Obama, but he will be getting my protest vote against McCain in November.
South Carolina will likely be very close and is a traditional Red State, so I'm hoping I can help McCain loose this state and the presidency.

eb

revolutionman
06-17-2008, 04:10 PM
a protest vote is better than a submission vote. wtf are peoples balls these days?? People fought and died for our freedoms, and now people wont even get off their asses to exersize them, much less defend them. Some people sicken me.

Todd
06-19-2008, 01:35 PM
Agreed, and in choosing a "lesser evil", that is HUGE to me, because I'm a soldier.

McCain has too much of a gleam in his eye when he sings "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" or talks about our endless stay in Iraq.

I've got no problem with war when NECESSARY, but I won't support anyone who wants to fight STUPID wars- and the Iraq war is just a complete waste of lives and resources. Talk about fiscal mismanagement.

I know Obama has a lot of faults too, but McNasty is just over the top bad...

The soldier issue has me concerned too as my unit is on the slate for being sent into one of the two theatres in the next year or two. I still don't see either as an option. Wouldn't we just be fighting Democrats wars under some other guise thant the GWOT? McCain's "Bomb Iran" crap is not very funny....and I get sick when I hear him speak for veterans.

LibertyEagle
06-19-2008, 01:38 PM
Now that I see Dr .Paul has asked us, as supporters, not to stage a right-in (see what I did there :rolleyes:) I've seen a couple people spring up and say they're going to vote for Mr. Obama. While I

respect their right to be wron...erm...choose whomever they wish, I'd like some clarification as to, "why?" Mr. Obama and Dr. Paul have almost nothing in common policy-wise, and are, in fact, on the

exact opposite ends of the political spectrum. I'm not saying this as an endorsement for McCain, I'll probably have to cut off the hand that eventually winds up filling in that arrow (or bubble or whatever

the hell thing we'll have to do this election, it'll certainly confuse some moron somewhere), but I need to know why there's a lean towards Mr. Obama. Is there some information, some key piece of

evidence, some needle in the haystack that should cause me to lean the opposite way of the way I've been leaning for the last 20 years? Help this troubled conservative!

I can't see a good reason at all. For myself, I can't vote for either Obama or McCain, because BOTH of them stand against the conservative principles that I hold dear. That leaves me either not voting at all, destroying my ballot by writing in Ron Paul, or picking between Barr or Baldwin. For me, I'm probably going to choose to vote for Chuck Baldwin.

Jeremy
06-19-2008, 01:41 PM
I can't see a good reason at all. For myself, I can't vote for either Obama or McCain, because BOTH of them stand against the conservative principles that I hold dear. That leaves me either not voting at all, destroying my ballot by writing in Ron Paul, or picking between Barr or Baldwin. For me, I'm probably going to choose to vote for Chuck Baldwin.

It doesn't look like Baldwin is on the Texas ballot... yet

tonesforjonesbones
06-19-2008, 01:48 PM
There are some trolls and infiltrators on this forum. I am going to start putting the obama supporters on iggy....they are very bad for the Revolution...very bad. They need to slither back under their rocks. TONES

LibertyEagle
06-19-2008, 01:48 PM
It doesn't look like Baldwin is on the Texas ballot... yet

Uh oh. Well, if he's not, I guess I'll vote for Barr.

crazyfingers
06-19-2008, 01:50 PM
Uh oh. Well, if he's not, I guess I'll vote for Barr.

Well, of course do what you want, but just so you know Baldwin did register as an official write-in candidate in Texas.

constituent
06-19-2008, 01:53 PM
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2350/imwhatpz6.jpg

tonesforjonesbones
06-19-2008, 01:54 PM
I truely don't think baldwin is going to be able to get on the ballots. TONES

crazyfingers
06-19-2008, 01:56 PM
I truely don't think baldwin is going to be able to get on the ballots. TONES

Baldwin will be on the ballot in at least 40 states.

Todd
06-19-2008, 01:59 PM
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2350/imwhatpz6.jpg

That's some funny stuff.

constituent
06-19-2008, 02:08 PM
That's some funny stuff.

hehehe... thanks.

richardfortherepublic
06-19-2008, 02:19 PM
If voting for a 3rd party takes away from McCain, what does it matter? All in All, it helps Obama.

Why not just cut out the middle man?

I can't decide...Barr or Obama?


I'm just going to wait and see who Obama picks as a VP, because I have a feeling whoever it is, he/she will be the President.