No Gas in this Car!

[driller80545]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25190604/wid=18298287

Market these and watch the middle east become irrelevant.

[OptionsTrader]

What those actors and actresses fail to realize is that H2 for fuel cells is most economically produced from the hated hydrocarbon.

[driller80545]

What those actors and actresses fail to realize is that H2 for fuel cells is most economically produced from the hated hydrocarbon.

Ah yes, but not exclusively as with gasoline/

[Fox McCloud]

What those actors and actresses fail to realize is that H2 for fuel cells is most economically produced from the hated hydrocarbon.

HAHA :D How ironic.

I wonder though (do you know?) which is cheaper per mile-gasoline or hydrogen (when produced with the cheapest method possible)?

[driller80545]

I don't know. My thoughts were more about dwindling resources and wars. If you figure those costs into the product, there is probably no comparison.

[newyearsrevolution08]

I wish they could figure out a wind generator or turbine style of generator so that when a vehicle is moving the faster it goes the more power it generates.

Or hell get something to fly for the general public damn it, where are the jetsons already.

[pcosmar]

It will take a while to get infrastructure in place and to produce hydrogen efficiently, but I am glad to see it being pursued.
When I spoke about it 30 some years ago everybody called me crazy.
Better late then never.

[WRellim]

I wish they could figure out a wind generator or turbine style of generator so that when a vehicle is moving the faster it goes the more power it generates.

Or hell get something to fly for the general public damn it, where are the jetsons already.

Ah, doesn't work that way.

The generators would simply generate more resistance and create turbulence drag that would use more power than you gained back.


Now if you wanna stick a tiny wind generator on a retractable pole attached to the car so that it generates power from passing wind when the car is PARKED somewhere... that would be a different story.

[driller80545]

It will take a while to get infrastructure in place and to produce hydrogen efficiently, but I am glad to see it being pursued.
When I spoke about it 30 some years ago everybody called me crazy.
Better late then never.

LOL And with all the insanity associated with hydrocarbons, people still want to write off all alternatives as "crazy". Ironic.

[OptionsTrader]

HAHA :D How ironic.

I wonder though (do you know?) which is cheaper per mile-gasoline or hydrogen (when produced with the cheapest method possible)?

It is a question of energy efficiency. The most efficient source for H2 is natural gas. When you produce H2 from nat gas and subsequently compress it and then use it in a fuel cell rxn, the energy efficiency is a little lower than 50%. They are beating that value already with plug in hybrids. Case closed.

[american.swan]

Ah, doesn't work that way.

The generators would simply generate more resistance and create turbulence drag that would use more power than you gained back.


Now if you wanna stick a tiny wind generator on a retractable pole attached to the car so that it generates power from passing wind when the car is PARKED somewhere... that would be a different story.

I am interested in knowing exactly how much "resistance" a small wind turbine would cause while driving? Like right above the side mirrors? THe wind would cause the blades to turn, Your telling me that the turbine itself is SO HARD to crank that it would "slow" the car down. That might be completely true, but really hard for me to believe. I know most of the energy used while driving is used solely to push the air out of the way of the car. But I still can't believe that a small fan blade would slow the car so much. How much electricity could be made by a few hundred thousand rotations of a fan blade anyways?

[newyearsrevolution08]

I still like anything that will use "waste" anything. Figure out a motor that runs on everything in the air that is bad for us. It just sucks it from the air and there will be a constant fuel source until everything is cleaned up THEN we can pull out our gas guzzlin v8's again lol..

[newyearsrevolution08]

I am interested in knowing exactly how much "resistance" a small wind turbine would cause while driving? Like right above the side mirrors? THe wind would cause the blades to turn, Your telling me that the turbine itself is SO HARD to crank that it would "slow" the car down. That might be completely true, but really hard for me to believe. I know most of the energy used while driving is used solely to push the air out of the way of the car. But I still can't believe that a small fan blade would slow the car so much. How much electricity could be made by a few hundred thousand rotations of a fan blade anyways?

Just a hypothetical is all.....

I do think that it would be amazing to use what we have available and those are solar and wind. I think the water would end up depleating what we need on earth if we all tried to use it as a fuel source.

Either find something that burns the "crap in the air we don't want" (scientific aint I) or a solar/wind hybrid system to run things.

I am still waiting for that revolutionary engine that gets rid of all dependency on fuel of any sort.

[Anti Federalist]

As already stated by WRellim and Options Trader and without posting a long dissertation on thermodynamics, Newton's first law and transference of energy equations, none of the current alternative energy proposals for transportation are feasible at this time, with current technology.

H2 - Inefficient, due to losses in hydrogen extraction, compression, thermal content and storage.

Ethanol - Same problem. Using corn as a bio base, it takes 1.2 units of energy (use whatever metric you want) to create 1 usable unit of fuel. Sugar cane will work that number down below parity (1=1) but we don't have the tropical acreage needed to grow that much.

Onboard energy harvesters - Again, same problem. No they won't stop the car, but the drag induced, coupled with transition loss, equates to a net energy loss.

Solar, wind, hydro, tide, these, however, do work, and every effort should be made to move these technologies forward, saving our hydrocarbon resources for transportation and chemical uses. This last tends to be forgotten, the millions of uses of hydrocarbon based chemicals, many that have no alternatives.

Solar electric has come far enough now that an average home, with just slight modifications, can be run seamlessly and almost primarily with solar power, in most areas of the United Sates. Cost is the only drawback.

[driller80545]

I am thinking that the efficiency is not the issue. I think that if you consider all of the money exported overseas for oil plus all of the money used to defend? our sources of oil overseas, that if that money were injected into our economy here in this country instead of overseas, that we can deal with lower efficiency values and still come out ahead. I study and realize the problems with the various alternatives to fossil fuels, but compared to the war, corruption, and trade deficits created by oil importation, I think they begin to look like a better bargain. No one seems to figure these costs into their efficiency ratings.

[Anti Federalist]

I am thinking that the efficiency is not the issue. I think that if you consider all of the money exported overseas for oil plus all of the money used to defend? our sources of oil overseas, that if that money were injected into our economy here in this country instead of overseas, that we can deal with lower efficiency values and still come out ahead. I study and realize the problems with the various alternatives to fossil fuels, but compared to the war, corruption, and trade deficits created by oil importation, I think they begin to look like a better bargain. No one seems to figure these costs into their efficiency ratings.

You know what driller, you're right.

We're both in "the business" and we both study this but maybe I tend to get overly analytical when quick solutions pop up.

The loss of life, energy wasted and money thrown down a shithole, traded off against negative energy reaped in a particular alternative fuel idea, especially in a short term fix, does seem like it would come close to parity. At the very least, it should be figured into the equation.

And when it is, like I said, I suspect you may be right.

[Kalifornia]

I see no reason why we cant develop a dual hydrogen fuel cell/plug in battery technology. That way, the vehicles can be charged when at rest, and burn hydrogen on long hauls. Yes, H2 is less efficient, but grid electricity is cheap, we have almost infinite ability to generate it, and solar costs and wind generation costs are going down to the point where microgeneration will be possible and economically feasible before long.

I recently read a story where a guy rigged his house for solar, set himself up with batteries, and H2 generation and storage system, and converted his auto to H2 fuel cell/battery hybrid for about 75k. Amortized out like a mortgage, that is 600 a month or so. Between electricity and gas right now, I pay about that as is.

This can be done.

[Kalifornia]

I am thinking that the efficiency is not the issue. I think that if you consider all of the money exported overseas for oil plus all of the money used to defend? our sources of oil overseas, that if that money were injected into our economy here in this country instead of overseas, that we can deal with lower efficiency values and still come out ahead. I study and realize the problems with the various alternatives to fossil fuels, but compared to the war, corruption, and trade deficits created by oil importation, I think they begin to look like a better bargain. No one seems to figure these costs into their efficiency ratings.

I totally agree with you on this. How much is spent on keeping the oil supply safe? easily a half trillion a year. If we got off foreign oil imports, we could let the whole middle east go back to trading camels and slaves.

[Anti Federalist]

I see no reason why we cant develop a dual hydrogen fuel cell/plug in battery technology. That way, the vehicles can be charged when at rest, and burn hydrogen on long hauls. Yes, H2 is less efficient, but grid electricity is cheap, we have almost infinite ability to generate it, and solar costs and wind generation costs are going down to the point where microgeneration will be possible and economically feasible before long.

I recently read a story where a guy rigged his house for solar, set himself up with batteries, and H2 generation and storage system, and converted his auto to H2 fuel cell/battery hybrid for about 75k. Amortized out like a mortgage, that is 600 a month or so. Between electricity and gas right now, I pay about that as is.

This can be done.

Full solar, completely off the grid, can be done right now for even less than 75k.

20k (roughly) will set you up for a 2000 sq.ft. home, with almost no noticeable difference in convenience and availability.

[Kalifornia]

Full solar, completely off the grid, can be done right now for even less than 75k.

20k (roughly) will set you up for a 2000 sq.ft. home, with almost no noticeable difference in convenience and availability.

right, but i want my cars off grid as well. total energy independence except for long drives. I am SOO tired of being at the mercy of the douche of the week.

[driller80545]

Full solar, completely off the grid, can be done right now for even less than 75k.

20k (roughly) will set you up for a 2000 sq.ft. home, with almost no noticeable difference in convenience and availability.

Liked your post about methane. Remember when several blocks in Guadalajara blew up a few years ago from a leaking septic line? I don't know why this isn't utilized more. Hard to do in the city I suppose, but what a source of shit!

[werdd]

I got an idea for hollywood

Lets market cars that have huge windsails on top of them

ITS SO GREEN!

::hugstree::

[Working Poor]

It is still a greed thing...there doesn't need to be"hydrogen filling stations" because hydrogen can be made in a car. I know it's true because I have a hydrogen generator in both of my vehicles. If I can find diy plans for this I am sure the automobile industry could make something outstanding! But our economy is designed in such a way that it has to keep the people down. The whole world needs to revolt against it. You have to do more than complain about it

[DAFTEK]

Anything to get away from the middle east oil, i don't care how much more it costs or if it pollutes the same as gas. I am using E85 just so they run out of cash in Dubai for their next insane project.....

[constituent]

Ah, doesn't work that way.

The generators would simply generate more resistance and create turbulence drag that would use more power than you gained back.


Now if you wanna stick a tiny wind generator on a retractable pole attached to the car so that it generates power from passing wind when the car is PARKED somewhere... that would be a different story.

ok.... how about copper coils/magnets in your rims or wheel wells (something similar to an alternator) ?

pvc and spandex perhaps? i don't know... how many rpms does a wheel get at 70 m.p.h.? would you create too much weight causing a net loss?

[Mesogen]

No Gas in this car? Except for H2, which was produced from methane, producing CO2 in the process. BTW it's way more CO2 produced per mile than ever would be produced by this same car burning gasoline.

[Kalifornia]

It is still a greed thing...there doesn't need to be"hydrogen filling stations" because hydrogen can be made in a car. I know it's true because I have a hydrogen generator in both of my vehicles. If I can find diy plans for this I am sure the automobile industry could make something outstanding! But our economy is designed in such a way that it has to keep the people down. The whole world needs to revolt against it. You have to do more than complain about it

in fairness, there would be a need for H2 filling stations on freeways although I bet you could get away with just keeping and converting local truck stops. also, imagine how much enegey cuold be generated by lining the tops of semi trailers with solar cells...

[voytechs]

The current method of producing hydrogen from water is very energy inefficient. So in order to produce those fuel cells your burning more oil or coal then then it would take in oil.

There have been people that produced hydrogen virtually for free, using high high voltage and frequencies and very low current, but they have been killed, bought off or otherwise intimidated into silence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6yRn4IAsrU

[angelatc]

Now if you wanna stick a tiny wind generator on a retractable pole attached to the car so that it generates power from passing wind when the car is PARKED somewhere... that would be a different story.

That's an interesting thought. Putting wind generators next to freeways. Wow. I am surprised I haven't seen that thought before.

[Mahkato]

That's an interesting thought. Putting wind generators next to freeways. Wow. I am surprised I haven't seen that thought before.

You would have to be VERY close to the freeway to get any appreciable wind at all, and it would likely just slow the vehicles down anyway. If this would work, they would have electronic road construction signs powered by wind instead of solar.

[pcosmar]

With fuel costs rising and the economy failing you are going to see a lot of SCAMs that promise something for nothing.
Hydrogen is a viable fuel, but it is not free, and needs to be developed further to make it efficient.
I am glad that it is finally being seriously considered and developed.
Beware of the SCAMs . Support the science.

[amy31416]

With fuel costs rising and the economy failing you are going to see a lot of SCAMs that promise something for nothing.
Hydrogen is a viable fuel, but it is not free, and needs to be developed further to make it efficient.
I am glad that it is finally being seriously considered and developed.
Beware of the SCAMs . Support the science.

+1

[Danke]

Anything to get away from the middle east oil, i don't care how much more it costs or if it pollutes the same as gas. I am using E85 just so they run out of cash in Dubai for their next insane project.....

Seems from everything I have read is that ethanol [currently] takes more energy (oil) to produce than it returns.

[LibertyOfOne]

I wish they could figure out a wind generator or turbine style of generator so that when a vehicle is moving the faster it goes the more power it generates.

Or hell get something to fly for the general public damn it, where are the jetsons already.

No

We don't break the laws of physics on this forum.

[newyearsrevolution08]

No

We don't break the laws of physics in this forum.

LOL, damn I thought I was getting somewhere with this too, o well next idea then..

[LibertyOfOne]

I see no reason why we cant develop a dual hydrogen fuel cell/plug in battery technology. That way, the vehicles can be charged when at rest, and burn hydrogen on long hauls. Yes, H2 is less efficient, but grid electricity is cheap, we have almost infinite ability to generate it, and solar costs and wind generation costs are going down to the point where microgeneration will be possible and economically feasible before long.

I recently read a story where a guy rigged his house for solar, set himself up with batteries, and H2 generation and storage system, and converted his auto to H2 fuel cell/battery hybrid for about 75k. Amortized out like a mortgage, that is 600 a month or so. Between electricity and gas right now, I pay about that as is.

This can be done.

You have to remember it is cheap at the current rate of demand. If everyone and their brother charged their electric car on the grid there might be a huge price increase due to a limited supply.

[Mahkato]

Seems from everything I have read is that ethanol takes more energy (oil) to produce than it returns.

Depends what you make the ethanol out of, and how far you have to transport it. Corn-based ethanol only makes sense if it is produced right where the corn is grown and used right where it is produced. It could be a good fuel for farm machinery, for example. You still have the problem of using up food stocks for fuel though. Sugar cane-based ethanol is a little more efficient but we can't produce much of it in the U.S. Algae-based ethanol seems to have the most promise at this point.

[LibertyOfOne]

The current method of producing hydrogen from water is very energy inefficient. So in order to produce those fuel cells your burning more oil or coal then then it would take in oil.

There have been people that produced hydrogen virtually for free, using high high voltage and frequencies and very low current, but they have been killed, bought off or otherwise intimidated into silence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6yRn4IAsrU

Omg conspiracy!

[Danke]

Depends what you make the ethanol out of, and how far you have to transport it. Corn-based ethanol only makes sense if it is produced right where the corn is grown and used right where it is produced. It could be a good fuel for farm machinery, for example. You still have the problem of using up food stocks for fuel though. Sugar cane-based ethanol is a little more efficient but we can't produce much of it in the U.S. Algae-based ethanol seems to have the most promise at this point.

Yes, I forgot the all too important word in my sentence, "currently."

[DAFTEK]

Depends what you make the ethanol out of, and how far you have to transport it. Corn-based ethanol only makes sense if it is produced right where the corn is grown and used right where it is produced. It could be a good fuel for farm machinery, for example. You still have the problem of using up food stocks for fuel though. Sugar cane-based ethanol is a little more efficient but we can't produce much of it in the U.S. Algae-based ethanol seems to have the most promise at this point.

DING DING DING DING! Finally someone who knows his ethanol, thank you....

E85 is $3.45 a gallon in my town today, My turbo Outback loves the stuff, my chipped SUV also loves it. high octane and it comes from here locally, I know people who work at one of these plants and it provides jobs for half of one town, so why the Fuk would i want to send my worthless dollars to Dubai? Obviously the guy you quoted is just fed CNN koolaid and accepts it as is so i did not even bother to reply to him..... :rolleyes:

[DAFTEK]

Yes, I forgot the all too important word in my sentence, "currently."

FYI: The corn itself is not used for Ethanol!

[Kalifornia]

You have to remember it is cheap at the current rate of demand. If everyone and their brother charged their electric car on the grid there might be a huge price increase due to a limited supply.

Of course it would be more expensive if we couldnt build more power plants. The truth is, there is alot of ways to increase grid capacity, through cleaner sources, solar, wind, and nuklar (where wind or solar or geothermal or dams arent possible).

There is also the possibility of microgeneration at home creating a huge amount of supply.

I guess my point is that when it comes to electricity, supply is relatively elastic, the biggest burden to increasing it is regulatory issues. So long as Opec is around, and we invade producing nations, oil supply is relatively inelastic.

[Tsoman]

I would think a good solution would be using nuclear power to produce hydrogen or something similar. Of course we'd have to build new nuclear power plants, but I don't see any problem with that.

[WRellim]

Full solar, completely off the grid, can be done right now for even less than 75k.

20k (roughly) will set you up for a 2000 sq.ft. home, with almost no noticeable difference in convenience and availability.

Yes, about $20K will do it for a small home (provided you are not using electric heat).

I've looked into this, and even given an immediate QUADRUPLING of electricity costs, solar at current prices wouldn't "pay for itself" until about 30-35 years out (or in other words, longer than the likely life of the solar panel system -- you'd probably and to replace major portions of the system before it was paid for... ergo solar right now is a "luxury" or a "toy" but not a practical alternative).

If you add it in only as smaller "supplemental" power source (not trying for "off-grid" 100% capacity), and you use time-of-day pricing then the payback could be a bit faster... more like 10 years.

Wind power is similar. Cost effective only on a small scale as a supplemental. (Unless you live somewhere remote where the local utility wants to charge BIG BUCKS in order to put you on grid -- then the investment is a decent trade off).

And yes, I know, company XYZ just announced that there new "low-cost solar panels" will be here soon -- but quite frankly I have given up hope of EVER seeing such things (the new low-cost solar panels are ALWAYS just 2-3 years away have been since the mid 1970's -- but like "tomorrow" they never arrive).

[WRellim]

You have to remember it is cheap at the current rate of demand. If everyone and their brother charged their electric car on the grid there might be a huge price increase due to a limited supply.

Actually since charging would mainly be done at night, rather than in the daytime, the system DOES have the capacity to handle it.

A big portion of the electricity "cost" is that the peak demand (daytime for industry and air-conditioning) requires them to turn on "supplemental" power generation plants, which are typically natural gas (= expen$ive).

Strangely enough, an increased "steady trickle" demand during night-time might actually be a GOOD thing (and might decrease costs) as it would reduce the "peaks & valleys" and allow increased use of the MAIN power generation systems (especially nuclear) which otherwise are not run at anywhere near full capacity.

[TastyWheat]

The #1 problem with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles is not building them, it's extracting and distributing the hydrogen. Not to mention pure hydrogen is very dangerous.

[pcosmar]

The #1 problem with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles is not building them, it's extracting and distributing the hydrogen. Not to mention pure hydrogen is very dangerous.

Yes and no.
Setting up the infrastructure is the main obsticle right now.
But Hydrogen is no more dangerous than many other substances, it just need to be handled correctly. There is hydrogen gas produced everyday under the hood of every car. not enough to power the car, but enough to explode the battery.
I have done it twice. Though once was a defective battery.

[driller80545]

The #1 problem with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles is not building them, it's extracting and distributing the hydrogen. Not to mention pure hydrogen is very dangerous.

Hydrogen is produced and handled safely every day now.
You ever seen a gas well blowout?

[Anti Federalist]

Yes, about $20K will do it for a small home (provided you are not using electric heat).

I've looked into this, and even given an immediate QUADRUPLING of electricity costs, solar at current prices wouldn't "pay for itself" until about 30-35 years out (or in other words, longer than the likely life of the solar panel system -- you'd probably and to replace major portions of the system before it was paid for... ergo solar right now is a "luxury" or a "toy" but not a practical alternative).

If you add it in only as smaller "supplemental" power source (not trying for "off-grid" 100% capacity), and you use time-of-day pricing then the payback could be a bit faster... more like 10 years.

Wind power is similar. Cost effective only on a small scale as a supplemental. (Unless you live somewhere remote where the local utility wants to charge BIG BUCKS in order to put you on grid -- then the investment is a decent trade off).

And yes, I know, company XYZ just announced that there new "low-cost solar panels" will be here soon -- but quite frankly I have given up hope of EVER seeing such things (the new low-cost solar panels are ALWAYS just 2-3 years away have been since the mid 1970's -- but like "tomorrow" they never arrive).

The only reason I have those numbers down is because I was going to do it myself.

But you're right, especially at the rates I pay which are cheap cheap cheap. With an electric dryer and 2 small kids, my electric bill averages around 50-60 bucks a month.

I'd be dead and buried before the thing even came close to paying for itself.