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View Full Version : I'm thinking of distributing hundreds of Freedom to Fascism dvd's...




krott5333
08-26-2007, 10:54 AM
how can I promote Ron Paul through the use of the dvd?

Im not sure if I should include information about Ron Paul with the dvd for fear of the people simply refusing to watch it because its not about THEIR candidate.


any ideas? I'm assuming I could throw a ron paul video on the end of the dvd. If someone could create an .iso with A:FtF and a ron paul for president blip at the end, I would really appreciate it.

Mr. White
08-26-2007, 10:58 AM
Hand out slimjims and tri-folds. This dvd can be found on the internet by those interested.

Scribbler de Stebbing
08-26-2007, 10:59 AM
My advice is to keep the two separate. You can either decide to promote the FTF DVD or Ron Paul, just not the two together. When trying to promote two messages together, one will often turn off support for the other. As you said, it could be that promoting Ron Paul would cause someone not to watch the DVD, and that also works in reverse. If they are turned off by the message in the DVD, they may not support Ron Paul.

Not saying there's anything wrong with the DVD; it's just a basic rule of the political game: You can either educate OR promote a candidate, but it's hard to do both effectively together.

Razmear
08-26-2007, 11:02 AM
Ron Paul is interviewed in the DVD so if they watch it they will see him anyways.
I wouldn't bother trying to promote Paul separately when giving out the DVDs as near the end they will see him anyways. Of course it also depends on what crowd your giving out the DVDs too.

eb

krott5333
08-26-2007, 11:06 AM
My advice is to keep the two separate. You can either decide to promote the FTF DVD or Ron Paul, just not the two together. When trying to promote two messages together, one will often turn off support for the other. As you said, it could be that promoting Ron Paul would cause someone not to watch the DVD, and that also works in reverse. If they are turned off by the message in the DVD, they may not support Ron Paul.

Not saying there's anything wrong with the DVD; it's just a basic rule of the political game: You can either educate OR promote a candidate, but it's hard to do both effectively together.


but people need to know the truth. it is the job of those who know the truth to spread it to others. To have liberty means to have responsibility.

:o

Mr. White
08-26-2007, 11:11 AM
That DVD contains just enough misinformation and Michael Moore like voiceovers that it pissed me off. I'd say do them seperately.

krott5333
08-26-2007, 11:16 AM
That DVD contains just enough misinformation and Michael Moore like voiceovers that it pissed me off. I'd say do them seperately.


link to evidence of such misinformation?

Brad Zink
08-26-2007, 11:22 AM
I like the idea of handing out the DVD. It is something that will wake up people who are not paying attention to the systemic corruption going on in our government.

When I saw the DVD, it gave me a greater sense of urgency than before, and it made Dr. Paul's message even more relevant.

james1844
08-26-2007, 11:24 AM
The impression I had when were were last at campaign HQ that the AFTF video was NOT something they wanted to have associated with Dr. Paul's name.

I tend to agree that the two should be separate. We should try to stick to the message as much as possible.

AFTFNJ
08-26-2007, 11:27 AM
When I went to the NH debates I gave the AFTF DVDs out to supporters of other candidates & told them that this dvd is NOT about RON PAUL but about America. Tell them its your duty as a citizen to watch it. I even gave it to all the media people there.

krott5333
08-26-2007, 11:31 AM
The impression I had when were were last at campaign HQ that the AFTF video was NOT something they wanted to have associated with Dr. Paul's name.

I tend to agree that the two should be separate. We should try to stick to the message as much as possible.


isnt his message to get rid of the federal reserve, to get rid of the IRS, to get rid of the income tax, and to get rid of the Real ID?

and isnt that what AFTF is about?

mdh
08-26-2007, 11:40 AM
Not saying there's anything wrong with the DVD; it's just a basic rule of the political game: You can either educate OR promote a candidate, but it's hard to do both effectively together.

I disagree with this assertion. While it is absolutely true for traditional two-party candidates for whom educating the masses would be quite detrimental (since they are regularly flip-flopping, saying different things to different people, etc), Dr. Paul's candidacy is one where educating people is absolutely crucial to our success. If we cannot educate the people, they are unlikely to bother voting for a candidate who the MSM is constantly saying has no chance to win. Heck, most of those who would vote for Dr. Paul if educated are unlikely to vote at all if they do not become educated.

The simple fact is that while other candidates rely on talking points, soundbites, and little real substance, our candidate will not get those soundbites - he's all substance.

krott5333
08-26-2007, 11:44 AM
so wheres the evidence of misinformation in the dvd?

mdh
08-26-2007, 11:44 AM
isnt his message to get rid of the federal reserve, to get rid of the IRS, to get rid of the income tax, and to get rid of the Real ID?

and isnt that what AFTF is about?

Those are definitly planks of his campaign. The thing is that some people will have an appreciation for the contents of AFTF and it will really turn them on to Ron Paul. Others will likely be turned off by it. Know the crowd you're going up against, understand the demographic, and make logical decisions on how to present our candidate. Certainly Dr. Paul's appearance in AFTF would be a benefit at a tax honesty rally! Apply common sense to the propaganda you use. Don't pitch Rothbardian economics to a bunch of leftists - use the anti-war bit. Don't dwell on the anti-war stance with stodgy conservatives - use his pro-life beliefs and strong Christian morality.

Know your target demographic and act accordingly. Blanket statements of "this always works" and "this is always bad" are never useful.

krott5333
08-26-2007, 11:47 AM
Those are definitly planks of his campaign. The thing is that some people will have an appreciation for the contents of AFTF and it will really turn them on to Ron Paul. Others will likely be turned off by it. Know the crowd you're going up against, understand the demographic, and make logical decisions on how to present our candidate. Certainly Dr. Paul's appearance in AFTF would be a benefit at a tax honesty rally! Apply common sense to the propaganda you use. Don't pitch Rothbardian economics to a bunch of leftists - use the anti-war bit. Don't dwell on the anti-war stance with stodgy conservatives - use his pro-life beliefs and strong Christian morality.

Know your target demographic and act accordingly. Blanket statements of "this always works" and "this is always bad" are never useful.

I agree. I'll be going to a fair in two weeks where there will be alot of farmers. I know farmers like guns, so I'll stick to his pro-Constitutional stance.

mdh
08-26-2007, 11:50 AM
I agree. I'll be going to a fair in two weeks where there will be alot of farmers. I know farmers like guns, so I'll stick to his pro-Constitutional stance.

There're some really good anti-subsidization arguments to use with farmers, but I'm not so well educated on them. You should check it out though. The conservative/Christian-values bit should serve you well, also, especially with people age 40+.

JasonD
08-26-2007, 11:53 AM
I also think Freedom to Fascism should not be directly associated with Dr. Paul, although it certainly can be very effective at informing people. For example my wife who is extremely mild-mannered was pissed once she saw the type of things the IRS does and all of the central bank and income tax issues. The reason I say I don't think it is appropriate is that it really has a "fringe" type feel to it which will certainly turn off some mainstream conservative republicans we are trying to recruit. The other issue is I don't think the movie was completely even-handed. For example the way they told the story about passing the central bank act made it looked like a vast conspiracy, but if you read Capitalism and Freedom by Friedmann he says it was passed as a response to prevent bank runs, it wasn't designed to systematically erode the value of people's money. I think the dollar was still backed by gold then.

But you do raise a good question that I've been thinking about recently, which is what's the best way to deliver the liberty message to potential voters. I have two recommendations:

Commanding Heights (PBS - documentary)
The Discovery of Freedom

Maybe we can get further suggestions on this issue and then turn this into a poll.

My support for these two is as follows:

The fact that the documentary is done by PBS lends a tremendous amount of credibility and the appearance of lack of bias (unlike FTF). Not only that, it does an excellent job of explaining how capitalism lifts people from poverty and I think would be great to lend to Democrats, who are often well-intentioned but ill-informed.


The Discovery of Freedom to me was an inspiration. It's easy to read so can be given to a large audience and I think most people in American can really relate to it. American's love progress and the book does a good job of explaining why freedom is an essential part of that.

jj111
08-26-2007, 11:55 AM
If you want Ron Paul elected, give AFTF only to people whom you already KNOW support getting rid of IRS and the Federal Reserve, and whom you already KNOW support Ron Paul. These are your best candidates of people likely to be interested in watching AFTF, not likely to be turned off by AFTF, and not likely to have AFTF adversely affect their opinion of Ron Paul. For this special select crowd, AFTF is very educational. However, this is a very small percentage of the population.

For all the rest, those whom ANY of these are not known to be true:
1) They support getting rid of Federal Reserve and IRS
2) They support Ron Paul
3) They want to learn more about the Federal Reserve and Income tax laws

then I recommend do not show them AFTF until after the election is over.
Instead, give them a Ron Paul DVD.
You will be lucky if you get people to even watch it, because a lot of people will take a DVD and not watch it.

Ron Paul is the best salesperson for Ron Paul. Aaron Russo was wonderful, and so was AFTF, but neither is the best salesperson for Ron Paul for the vast majority of people IMHO.

Mr. White
08-26-2007, 11:56 AM
There's a discussion of it here:

http://ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=14161

RevolutionSD
08-26-2007, 11:57 AM
I also think Freedom to Fascism should not be directly associated with Dr. Paul, although it certainly can be very effective at informing people. For example my wife who is extremely mild-mannered was pissed once she saw the type of things the IRS does and all of the central bank and income tax issues. The reason I say I don't think it is appropriate is that it really has a "fringe" type feel to it which will certainly turn off some mainstream conservative republicans we are trying to recruit. The other issue is I don't think the movie was completely even-handed. For example the way they told the story about passing the central bank act made it looked like a vast conspiracy, but if you read Capitalism and Freedom by Friedmann he says it was passed as a response to prevent bank runs, it wasn't designed to systematically erode the value of people's money. I think the dollar was still backed by gold then.

But you do raise a good question that I've been thinking about recently, which is what's the best way to deliver the liberty message to potential voters. I have two recommendations:

Commanding Heights (PBS - documentary)
The Discovery of Freedom

Maybe we can get further suggestions on this issue and then turn this into a poll.

My support for these two is as follows:

The fact that the documentary is done by PBS lends a tremendous amount of credibility and the appearance of lack of bias (unlike FTF). Not only that, it does an excellent job of explaining how capitalism lifts people from poverty and I think would be great to lend to Democrats, who are often well-intentioned but ill-informed.


The Discovery of Freedom to me was an inspiration. It's easy to read so can be given to a large audience and I think most people in American can really relate to it. American's love progress and the book does a good job of explaining why freedom is an essential part of that.

Freedom to Fascism is actually what woke many people up to Ron Paul. It's completely factual and I see nothing wrong with using it to promote Ron.

The campaign slimjim on the other hand, shows a picture of Ronald Reagan. Now I know that some may buy into the Reagan myth, and this flyer will work for them, but many others, including most independents we are trying to recruit, do not share the romantic view of the Reagan years, and this picture will turn them off immediately.

Just taylor the message. There is no one size fits all here.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 12:06 PM
It simply amazes me how every single issue that Ron Paul discusses gets lumped into a non sequitur argument?

Ron Paul wants to get rid of the IRS
A:F2F wants to get rid of the IRS
Ron Paul must support A:F2F

Ron Paul supports civil disobedience
The Browns in NH are being civil disobedient by taking up arms
Ron Paul must support the Browns

Ron Paul wants to eliminate the secrets of our government
The Truther movement says the government is covering up the events of 9/11
Ron Paul must support the Truther movement

Ron Paul likes chocolate chip cookies
I like chocolate chip cookies
Ron Paul must like me

Why not just let Ron Paul speak for himself?

krott5333
08-26-2007, 12:09 PM
There's a discussion of it here:

http://ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=14161

okay thanks.

maybe I wont pass these out while supporting RP

DeadheadForPaul
08-26-2007, 12:33 PM
I don't think it's a good idea to hand out Freedom to Fascism dvds to the general populations. Im sure others would disagree

I think the average person would just hear "freedom to fascism" and think we're crazy

4Horsemen
08-26-2007, 01:15 PM
People need to know way RP wants to abolish the IRS and the FED. AFTF is a great tool to use for this purpose. Most people have no clue way he wants to abolish them. It 's like talking in one ear and out the other unless they know the reasons. I haven't heard of anybody being turned off by the movie yet, just turned on to RP after they watch it. The IRS hangs themselves in this film.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 01:23 PM
People need to know way RP wants to abolish the IRS and the FED. AFTF is a great tool to use for this purpose. Most people have no clue way he wants to abolish them. It 's like talking in one ear and out the other unless they know the reasons. I haven't heard of anybody being turned off by the movie yet, just turned on to RP after they watch it. The IRS hangs themselves in this film.

The only problem is that the reasons posited in A:FTF aren't the reasons that RP gives.

The reasons that A:FTF give are not valid arguments.
There is no law
the Fed is are conspirators to enslave the people

The reasons that RP gives are valid:
FIT is immoral as it suggests the government owns your labor
Means to enforce it violate the notion of innocent until proven guilty
The Fed allows Congress to fund programs that overstep Constitutional limitations

AFTFNJ
08-26-2007, 02:59 PM
Telling people how the Fed is illegal bank is important & is one of RPs biggest selling point. When I explain th Fed to people & how it operates & where income tax comes from they become interested...Tell them that they work 4 months (some of us) of the year as a slave to pay the bankers interests on money they created out of nothing. After hearing everything they want to Look into RP & watch aftf , The Money Masters...education is key.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 03:25 PM
Telling people how the Fed is illegal bank is important & is one of RPs biggest selling point. When I explain th Fed to people & how it operates & where income tax comes from they become interested...Tell them that they work 4 months (some of us) of the year as a slave to pay the bankers interests on money they created out of nothing. After hearing everything they want to Look into RP & watch aftf , The Money Masters...education is key.

Freedom is popular. You don't need to lie to get people to advocate for Ron Paul's policies.

max
08-26-2007, 03:28 PM
believe me, the number of people who WILL get turned on by AFTF far surpasses the number of people who MIGHT get turned off to it..

let's stop with the chicken-like tentative, cautious behavior..

Boldness and audacity will win out over timidity every time. The type of personality who would get "turned off" by AFTF would never vote for RP once the media smear begins anyway...Screw those closed minded slavish weaklings. That's not our target audience.

Russo's movie is an awesome tool....use it and dont be ashamed..

remember, we arent just going after voters...we are trying to cultivate new troops as well...and AFTF gets apoltical types active for the first time in their lives....Thank about that

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 03:30 PM
believe me, the number of people who WILL get turned on by AFTF far surpasses the number of people who MIGHT get turned off to it..

let's stop with the chicken-like tentative, cautious behavior..

Boldness and audacity will win out over timidity every time. The type of personality who would get "turned off" by AFTF would never vote for RP once the media smear begins anyway...Screw those closed minded slavish weaklings. That's not our target audience.

Russo's movie is an awesome tool....use it and dont be ashamed..


remember, we arent just going after voters...we are trying to cultivate new troops as well...and AFTF gets apoltical types active for the first time in their lives....Thank about that

Why should you believe a liar?

max
08-26-2007, 03:30 PM
Why should you believe a liar?


???

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 03:32 PM
???

You're telling people to believe you. Yet, you're advocating distributing a movie that does nothing but lie and misconstrue. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to get rid of the FIT and the Fed. None of them are brought up in A:F2F.

max
08-26-2007, 03:38 PM
You're telling people to believe you. Yet, you're advocating distributing a movie that does nothing but lie and misconstrue. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to get rid of the FIT and the Fed. None of them are brought up in A:F2F.

I'm not aware of any lies in AFTF.

"Freedom is popular"...that's your strategy? You really think that's going to arouse the masses to action?

AFTF makes viewers blood boil...and thats exactly what we need. people see AFTF and then suddenly become active for the first time ever.

Do you seriously think you could achieve the same effect with a disertation on Austrian economics?..or a vague slogan like "Freedom is popular"?

I dont undertand why people like u feel the need to throw water on people's fires. If you dont like AFTF, well...DONT DISTRIBUTE IT!

Let others fight as they see fit and dont discourage their initiative.

Scribbler de Stebbing
08-26-2007, 03:43 PM
Regardless of whether the movie is true or not -- even if it is, what I say applies -- there WILL be a portion of people who are turned off by the movie and will then not support Ron Paul if they think he endorses it. Maybe you are correct that some (I wouldn't say most) would be turned on by it. But those who find it radical will be permanently lost to Ron Paul.

I never said don't hand it out. Just do NOT hand it out in conjunction WITH Ron Paul literature if you wish to help Ron Paul. You are welcome to educate people on AFTF, but then leave the campaigning to the more mainstream folks.

If you wish to harm Ron Paul's campaign, you would be accomplishing your objective by doing both at once. I can't speak to your personal reasons for this.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 03:49 PM
I'm not aware of any lies in AFTF.

"Freedom is popular"...that's your strategy? You really think that's going to arouse the masses to action?

AFTF makes viewers blood boil...and thats exactly what we need. people see AFTF and then suddenly become active for the first time ever.

Do you seriously think you could achieve the same effect with a disertation on Austrian economics?..or a vague slogan like "Freedom is popular"?

I dont undertand why people like u feel the need to throw water on people's fires. If you dont like AFTF, well...DONT DISTRIBUTE IT!

Let others fight as they see fit and dont discourage their initiative.

A:F2F starts out by claiming that there have been two great hoaxes perpetrated on the American people. Yet, you want to advocate change by perpetrating another hoax. This doesn't make sense to me.

Passing out hundreds of DVDs that lie to people is not going to move the debate on the proper role of government. The issues that are ruling the day; healthcare, pre-emptive war, globalization, medicinal marijuana, tax reform and education provide ample room to change people's minds away from the nanny state and towards freedom and personal responsibility. Lying to people undermines the argument and makes your position on them less credible.

jj111
08-26-2007, 03:52 PM
I haven't heard of anybody being turned off by the movie yet,

Well you have now. I showed my father parts of America From Freedom to Fascism on the Internet. After about 10 or 15 minutes my father had had enough, he was pissed, and he thought the movie was filled with inaccuracies.

I am not saying that the movie has inaccuracies. I am simply telling you what my father's impression was. My father had always been a true believer in the patriotic duty to pay your income tax, so this movie not only was foreign to him, it was ridiculous, decieptful, and irresponsible, in his opinion.

That was about 6 months or more ago.

Now, today, my father is a fan and supporter of Ron Paul. I was able to turn my father onto Ron Paul, but nevertheless, A:FTF completely turned him off.

So you now you have a case study that provides an example. Now hopefully you have heard a person who likes RP but who was turned off by A:FTF.

max
08-26-2007, 03:53 PM
[QUOTE=cjhowe;147350]A:F2F starts out by claiming that there have been two great hoaxes perpetrated on the American people. Yet, you want to advocate change by perpetrating another hoax. This doesn't make sense to me.

The Federal Reserve and the Income Tax ARE indeed hoaxes. They were put over on the public through fraud and deceit.

How is that a lie?

Tell u what..you go out and preach free market economics and Monrovian foreign policy to the esoteric types.

Let these guys touch the hearts of the average joes with AFTF. One size doesnt fit all

mdh
08-26-2007, 03:56 PM
believe me, the number of people who WILL get turned on by AFTF far surpasses the number of people who MIGHT get turned off to it..

let's stop with the chicken-like tentative, cautious behavior..

Boldness and audacity will win out over timidity every time. The type of personality who would get "turned off" by AFTF would never vote for RP once the media smear begins anyway...Screw those closed minded slavish weaklings. That's not our target audience.

Russo's movie is an awesome tool....use it and dont be ashamed..

remember, we arent just going after voters...we are trying to cultivate new troops as well...and AFTF gets apoltical types active for the first time in their lives....Thank about that

I really agree with the sentiment of your post, max, but you do miss out on one key fact. Just because someone may agree with an idea, the presentation does matter. AFTF was created with a specific set of target demographics in mind. It goes over extremely well with those people. Others may simply not get it - not be turned off, but more or less be bored by it. Others still may feel otherwise.

To re-state my assertions...

Some people will enjoy AFTF a great deal. Some of them may not have heard of Dr. Paul before, and will be very turned on to him by seeing him in it plus receiving a slimjim or something about his run for president.

Some people won't even watch the DVD, or will be bored and turn it off after 30 minutes or an hour. People have short attention spans today. There are people for whom the tri-fold is too much, and for whom simple stuff like a five-minute interactive discussion about his principles and ideas is the only way to break through to them.

Some people will be stodgy and not like anything that is so 'in your face'. Dr. Paul is not 'in your face', so they may still be able to like him. Who knows.

Some people will hate AFTF because Aaron Russo is jewish.

- The list goes on and on. Know your target demographic and adapt to each individual as seems necessary.

jj111
08-26-2007, 03:57 PM
PS I disagree with cjhowe's comments and think cjhowe should move his comments to "hot topics."

max
08-26-2007, 03:57 PM
Well you have now. I showed my father parts of America From Freedom to Fascism on the Internet. After about 10 or 15 minutes my father had had enough, he was pissed, and he thought the movie was filled with inaccuracies.

I am not saying that the movie has inaccuracies. I am simply telling you what my father's impression was. My father had always been a true believer in the patriotic duty to pay your income tax, so this movie not only was foreign to him, it was ridiculous, decieptful, and irresponsible, in his opinion.

That was about 6 months or more ago.

Now, today, my father is a fan and supporter of Ron Paul. I was able to turn my father onto Ron Paul, but nevertheless, A:FTF completely turned him off.

So you now you have a case study that provides an example. Now hopefully you have heard a person who likes RP but who was turned off by A:FTF.



As i said...one size doesnt fit all. Your dad may have been turned off, but for others it was an instant conversion.

And it is quite possible that after your dad got hit with the shock of AFTF, some of ur dads defenses were subconsiously softened...AFTF may (and I'm just speculating here) have sown a seed that germinated months later via your persitance.

whatever it takes...but every case is different so all means should be tried

jj111
08-26-2007, 04:03 PM
As i said...one size doesnt fit all. Your dad may have been turned off, but for others it was an instant conversion.

And it is quite possible that after your dad got hit with the shock of AFTF, some of ur dads defenses were subconsiously softened...AFTF may (and I'm just speculating here) have sown a seed that germinated months later via your persitance.

whatever it takes...but every case is different so all means should be tried

I think what it took for my father to finally support Ron Paul was my going on for the last 15 to 20 years with him about freedom issues, and then on top of all that the Bush Administration's ample number of prominent examples of governmental actions going out of control and berserk.

paulitics
08-26-2007, 04:03 PM
Do it. For every Freedom to Fascism video you give someone, there is a 12% chance they will become ardent supporters of Ron Paul like those on this board (a poll was conducted). I know that may not sound great, but that is an incredibly good closing ratio from just 1 video, and you are waking the citizen up as well. Becoming a Ron Paul follower usually involves waking up from the matrix first. This video works pretty well on neocons due to the high level of brainwashing that they endure from the likes of Hannity.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 04:04 PM
The Federal Reserve and the Income Tax ARE indeed hoaxes. They were put over on the public through fraud and deceit.

How is that a lie?

Tell u what..you go out and preach free market economics and Monrovian foreign policy to the esoteric types.

Let these guys touch the hearts of the average joes with AFTF. One size doesnt fit all

They weren't hoaxes. The Federal Reserve was instituted in response to the Panic of 1907 and the multiple bank runs that occurred before that.
The FIT was instituted by amending the constitution. No small feat! Not only did the elected individuals from each state vote for it, but the elected officials within each state voted for it.

Empowering people through lies will only make them disillusioned when they discover the reason why they are fighting is a lie, and they will discover it. Educate people with why in the early 1900s it may have seemed like a good idea, but that now it is no longer necessary, instil in them the self esteem to accept the personal responsibility that comes from freedom and they will fight to protect it.

max
08-26-2007, 04:07 PM
Do it. For every Freedom to Fascism video you give someone, there is a 12% chance they will become ardent supporters of Ron Paul like those on this board (a poll was conducted). I know that may not sound great, but that is an incredibly good closing ratio from just 1 video, and you are waking the citizen up as well. Becoming a Ron Paul follower usually involves waking up from the matrix first. This video works pretty well on neocons due to the high level of brainwashing that they endure from the likes of Hannity.

agreed..

and those 12% dont just become voters...they often become dedicated ACTIVISTS!..so the effect is multiplied...

I'll glady take 1 activist donor to every one who might be "turned off" and "lost to RP forever". My Meetup is full of people who were never political until they saw AFTF. Some of these people show up every week to wave signs, hand out flyers, and finance our group.

The risk-reward ratio of AFTF is in our favor

jj111
08-26-2007, 04:12 PM
Cjhowe: I don't like you throwing around a perjorative word like "lies" on this forum and using it to attack other members' posts. Why don't you tone down your rhetoric a bit, and act a little more diplomatically? If you can't tone down your rhetoric, I would feel more comfortable if you would voluntarily move your comments to "hot topics."

max
08-26-2007, 04:15 PM
They weren't hoaxes. The Federal Reserve was instituted in response to the Panic of 1907 and the multiple bank runs that occurred before that.
The FIT was instituted by amending the constitution. No small feat! Not only did the elected individuals from each state vote for it, but the elected officials within each state voted for it.

Empowering people through lies will only make them disillusioned when they discover the reason why they are fighting is a lie, and they will discover it. Educate people with why in the early 1900s it may have seemed like a good idea, but that now it is no longer necessary, instil in them the self esteem to accept the personal responsibility that comes from freedom and they will fight to protect it.

The Federal Resrve System Act was sold as FEDERAL (but it is privately owned), a RESERVE (but there are no reserves, just fiat paper money from thin air), a SYSTEM (to convey decentralization but it is a CENTRAL bank. It creates money from thin air and charges us interest. Thats known as counterfeiting and loan sharking all in one. If thats not a hoax, I dont what is.

The Income Tax was set up in the same year to be the collection arm of the first hoax.

You persist in ignoring the fact that AFTF has had an enormous positive effect, despite your protests. Do you really believe that the economics lecture that you advocate would have moved these people as AFFTF has? How can you argue with success? I just dont follow your logic.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 04:18 PM
Cjhowe: I don't like you throwing around a perjorative word like "lies" on this forum and using it to attack other members' posts. Why don't you tone down your rhetoric a bit, and act a little more diplomatically? If you can't tone down your rhetoric, I would feel more comfortable if you would voluntarily move your comments to "hot topics."

What would you prefer me call something that is untruthful and dishonest?

AFTFNJ
08-26-2007, 04:23 PM
Give a copy of AFTF & tell them to google Tom Cryer.

jj111
08-26-2007, 04:24 PM
As I understand it, a "lie" is an *INTENTIONAL* falsehood.
If you think something is false, using the word "inaccuracy" or "falsehood" or "false statement" is a lot less pejorative than calling something a "lie."

I think it is a lot more polite, and when you are on a message board, you are speaking in mixed company. I like polite conversation when speaking in mixed company. That's just me. This being a public campaign and a public message board, if you want to help Ron Paul in the mixed company, I believe it is most helfpul for this campaign for Ron Paul supporters to try to be as polite as possible to one another.

Scribbler de Stebbing
08-26-2007, 04:25 PM
No one is saying don't distribute the movie. But PLEASE, if you want to help Ron Paul, do NOT do it in conjunction with his literature.

Can we agree to that?

Sematary
08-26-2007, 04:26 PM
how can I promote Ron Paul through the use of the dvd?

Im not sure if I should include information about Ron Paul with the dvd for fear of the people simply refusing to watch it because its not about THEIR candidate.


any ideas? I'm assuming I could throw a ron paul video on the end of the dvd. If someone could create an .iso with A:FtF and a ron paul for president blip at the end, I would really appreciate it.

I'd only pass out RP stuff. Mainstream America isn't ready for that DVD yet.

jj111
08-26-2007, 04:31 PM
What would you prefer me call something that is untruthful and dishonest?

I believe the word "dishonest" is also pejorative. It attacks the character of the person saying something, implying the person is not an honest person. That is an implied personal attack on someone's character.

I think the word "untruthful" is slightly less pejorative, but not neutral. Again, the implication is that the person saying it is being "untruthful", again an implied personal attack on someone's character.

Let me ask you this:
1. If someone were to call you "dishonest", wouldn't you consider that somewhat pejorative?
2. If someone were to call you "untruthful" wouldn't you consider that somewhat perjorative?

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 04:37 PM
The Federal Resrve System Act was sold as FEDERAL (but it is privately owned), a RESERVE (but there are no reserves, just fiat paper money from thin air), a SYSTEM (to convey decentralization but it is a CENTRAL bank. It creates money from thin air and charges us interest. Thats known as counterfeiting and loan sharking all in one. If thats not a hoax, I dont what is.

Why not point to the actual legislation on what the Fedaral Reserve Act was being sold as:


To provide for the establishment of Federal reserve banks, to furnish an elastic currency, to afford means of rediscounting commercial paper, to establish a more effective supervision of banking in the United States, and for other purposes.




The Income Tax was set up in the same year to be the collection arm of the first hoax.

Wrong. The first income tax was set up in 1861. Several others followed repealing modifying and reinstituting the Federal Income Tax. The 16th Amendment was ratified to overturn the Supreme Court case Polluck v Farmer's Loan & Trust Co. (1895) which deemed the provisions of the Wilson-Gorman Tariff of 1894 unconstitutional.


You persist in ignoring the fact that AFTF has had an enormous positive effect, despite your protests. Do you really believe that the economics lecture that you advocate would have moved these people as AFFTF has? How can you argue with success? I just dont follow your logic.

It is a short lived impact. Much like the impact of Loose Change. As these movies gain momentum and popularity people who actually have been educated about the topics they talk about start to say "What the F* are you talking about, that's not what/how it happened". As those people refute the claims that A:F2F make, your activists will be disillusioned because they will look and feel foolish.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 04:42 PM
As I understand it, a "lie" is an *INTENTIONAL* falsehood.
If you think something is false, using the word "inaccuracy" or "falsehood" or "false statement" is a lot less pejorative than calling something a "lie."

I think it is a lot more polite, and when you are on a message board, you are speaking in mixed company. I like polite conversation when speaking in mixed company. That's just me. This being a public campaign and a public message board, if you want to help Ron Paul in the mixed company, I believe it is most helfpul for this campaign for Ron Paul supporters to try to be as polite as possible to one another.

That people will watch this movie and then immediately encourage others without doing proper due diligence to verify the claims made, makes it intentional or at the very least, something that's not worth the time to separate semantically.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 04:48 PM
Give a copy of AFTF & tell them to google Tom Cryer.

Tom Cryer still owes the tax. He only convinced a jury that he actually believed that his income didn't qualify and therefore wasn't guilty of the charge against him : 2 counts of wilful failure to file.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 04:53 PM
I believe the word "dishonest" is also pejorative. It attacks the character of the person saying something, implying the person is not an honest person. That is an implied personal attack on someone's character.

I think the word "untruthful" is slightly less pejorative, but not neutral. Again, the implication is that the person saying it is being "untruthful", again an implied personal attack on someone's character.

Let me ask you this:
1. If someone were to call you "dishonest", wouldn't you consider that somewhat pejorative?
2. If someone were to call you "untruthful" wouldn't you consider that somewhat perjorative?

Max and I have had more PC discussions on this topic in the past. He is aware that A:F2F contains falsehoods, yet he continues to advocate the distribution of it. He then asks people to "believe him". Even by your standards of social etiquette, it's called for.

Scribbler de Stebbing
08-26-2007, 05:16 PM
No one is saying don't distribute the movie. But PLEASE, if you want to help Ron Paul, do NOT do it in conjunction with his literature.

Can we agree to that?

Hearing no objection, I hope I may safely assume that if anyone does distribute the DVD, it is without Ron Paul literature.

Frankly, I'd love to see more people spending their time to get Ron Paul elected right now. We only have 3 months to both get name recognition and convince existing voters they should support Ron Paul.

You'll have plenty of time to distribute that movie AFTER the election.

mdh
08-26-2007, 05:18 PM
No one is saying don't distribute the movie. But PLEASE, if you want to help Ron Paul, do NOT do it in conjunction with his literature.

Can we agree to that?

No. See all of my other posts for reasoning.

Scribbler de Stebbing
08-26-2007, 05:31 PM
No. See all of my other posts for reasoning.

I saw your other posts and still disagree that this should be done WITH Ron Paul lit. If it was a good idea, wouldn't the campaign be doing it?

How many advocating what I think is a really big mistake have extensive political experience? We can then have a discussion of why or why this is not a good idea.

I'm honestly not trying to be a snob, but from a political perspective on any side of the aisle, trying to educate on a controversial issue while attempting to win an election never works. You might succeed in educating a few people, but the election will be certainly be lost.

I am not willing to give up this opportunity to elect a Constitutionalist, as we may never have the chance again. Others of you may have a different agenda, but mine is to elect Ron Paul.

JasonD
08-26-2007, 05:40 PM
Do it. For every Freedom to Fascism video you give someone, there is a 12% chance they will become ardent supporters of Ron Paul like those on this board (a poll was conducted). I know that may not sound great, but that is an incredibly good closing ratio from just 1 video, and you are waking the citizen up as well. Becoming a Ron Paul follower usually involves waking up from the matrix first. This video works pretty well on neocons due to the high level of brainwashing that they endure from the likes of Hannity.


So you are assuming that the results from a poll on this board are representative of the entire voting population?

JasonD
08-26-2007, 05:43 PM
As these movies gain momentum and popularity people who actually have been educated about the topics they talk about start to say "What the F* are you talking about, that's not what/how it happened". As those people refute the claims that A:F2F make, your activists will be disillusioned because they will look and feel foolish.[/QUOTE]


Precisely.

LibertyEagle
08-26-2007, 05:49 PM
They weren't hoaxes. The Federal Reserve was instituted in response to the Panic of 1907 and the multiple bank runs that occurred before that.



That was the excuse CJ, that was not the reason. You are badly in need of doing some reading.

The Creature from Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve by G. Edward Griffin
http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal-Reserve/dp/0912986395/ref=pd_sim_b_img/102-8773503-2420120

The Secrets of the Federal Reserve by Eustace Mullins
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm
or go to Amazon and pay a couple of hundred dollars for a copy.

But, it is also my opinion that we should NOT be distributing America: Freedom to Fascism with Ron Paul literature. I am not aware of any endorsement that Dr. Paul has given this video. What we need, is a good quality, high-resolution video of Ron Paul speaking.

LibertyEagle
08-26-2007, 06:07 PM
Hearing no objection, I hope I may safely assume that if anyone does distribute the DVD, it is without Ron Paul literature.

Frankly, I'd love to see more people spending their time to get Ron Paul elected right now. We only have 3 months to both get name recognition and convince existing voters they should support Ron Paul.

You'll have plenty of time to distribute that movie AFTER the election.

No kidding! We only have three frickin' months, people! And STILL today, only a very few even know who he is, much less his message. What is it that everyone does not understand?? If he is going to stand a chance in hell, WE are going to have to all walk out our doors and start handing out RON PAUL literature to real people. I could care less if it's uncomfortable for people because they are shy, or "it's not their style", or any other lame excuse. If you are physically able, get to it, or WE ARE GOING TO LOSE! That's not a maybe. That's a definite.

And for those who think that we're going to have some great big turnaround in the media in the next 3 months or that some lawsuit in the sky will change the bias, WAKE UP!!!! It's not going to happen.

If we want to win this thing, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN! US! We can't wait for the campaign to come in and perform a miracle, or to somehow lead us by the hand to tell us what to do. WE are going to have to figure it out on our own! And we'd damn well do it pretty soon. And for those who can't stand the idea that we would have any kind of grassroots strategy or goals at the national level, because it might upset your libertarian sensibilities, please get over it. The way it stands now, we can't even effectively communicate with Meetup Groups if we need to, for Christ's sake!! We have no repository of decent video for commercials, DVDs, or anything else. But, damn, we sure have independence, don't we. Well, that's going to do a lot of good, if we're all sitting in a Gulag in a few short years, isn't it!

For at least some things, we'd better start working together to accomplish large strategic objectives, or we will surely lose. We will have no one to blame but ourselves too. That's the sad part. It's not going to fly to cry in our milk about the mean 'ol unfair media, or the Diebold voting machines, or anything else. WE HAVE TO ADAPT AND OVERCOME! Period.

Does everyone want to win, or not??? We can sort out the details, after the inauguration.

JasonD
08-26-2007, 06:11 PM
believe me, the number of people who WILL get turned on by AFTF far surpasses the number of people who MIGHT get turned off to it..

How could you possibly know that as fact? You would have had to do substantial work to demonstrate this is not simply your opinion.


let's stop with the chicken-like tentative, cautious behavior..

Disparaging comments...a sign of a weak argument



Boldness and audacity will win out over timidity every time.

Assertion with no substance.


The type of personality who would get "turned off" by AFTF would never vote for RP once the media smear begins anyway

Assertion with no substance.


...Screw those closed minded slavish weaklings.

More dispagargements. So much hate!! Is this the tone that this forum is trying to set. If so I think I've come to the wrong place.



That's not our target audience.

Russo's movie is an awesome tool....use it and dont be ashamed..



Interesting yes, unbiased and accurate no. Anytime you have to distort facts to make a point you undermine any legitimacy in the position you are taking.



remember, we arent just going after voters...we are trying to cultivate new troops as well...and AFTF gets apoltical types active for the first time in their lives....Thank about tha

Yes. We are going after both voters and activists. I think we can all agree on this point and I think we can all agree that tailoring the message can be important. But the topic started off as distrubuting hundreds of FTF with Ron Paul literature, not should I give it some people I know well who I think would be receptive to this. So is FTF the best way to turn on mainstream voters you don't even know? That, IMO, is highly unlikely. I think some of RPs videos or the you tubes videos like stop dreaming do a much better job and don't come across as conspiratorial.


BTW Max I would be curious to hear your explanation as to WHY the federal reserve act was passed.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 06:11 PM
That was the excuse CJ, that was not the reason. You are badly in need of doing some reading.

The Creature from Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve by G. Edward Griffin
http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal-Reserve/dp/0912986395/ref=pd_sim_b_img/102-8773503-2420120

The Secrets of the Federal Reserve by Eustace Mullins
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm
or go to Amazon and pay a couple of hundred dollars for a copy.

But, it is also my opinion that we should NOT be distributing America: Freedom to Fascism with Ron Paul literature. I am not aware of any endorsement that Dr. Paul has given this video. What we need, is a good quality, high-resolution video of Ron Paul speaking.

Dr. Edward Flaherty debunks the Jekyll island myth and gives a pretty decent history of the events leading up to the Federal Reserve Act
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3616/flaherty1.html

I didn't read through the entire second link you provided, but skipped to the Q&A for credibility. The majority of those are debunked on Flaherty's site
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html

LibertyEagle
08-26-2007, 06:15 PM
CJ, you're trusting an Economics professor on blind faith? You need to do the research. Much more than reading the books I cited. I think you will find they are true, but you will have to judge for yourself.

Are you aware that Mullins' book is based on interviews with Ezra Pound?


Watch this video on the Federal Reserve, put out by the Mises Institute:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553&q=%22federal+reserve%22&total=1513&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Murray Rothbard has also written extensively on it.

mdh
08-26-2007, 06:24 PM
I saw your other posts and still disagree that this should be done WITH Ron Paul lit. If it was a good idea, wouldn't the campaign be doing it?

Not necessarily, no. First of all, if the PCC does it, it's somewhat of an overall endorsement of AFTF as campaign material/propaganda. That isn't a good idea, since it's not something which they have absolute control over all of the content in. It's also much more difficult for a national PCC to micro-manage groups in a grassroots campaign such as this, so the vast majority of the work is up to us anyway, even if they did think it was a good idea.

The PCC's place, imho, should be threefold. First, to fundraise and have Dr. Paul speak to people at this point, as well as take care of necessary paperwork (submissions to state GOP's, FEC filings - the stuff no one else *can* do). Second, then have a mass-media blowout with as many ads as we can afford in print, radio, and television media in the final few weeks leading up to each primary in primary states. Third and finally, to target delegates and those with voting rights in caucus states to try and bring in as many of those votes as we can, especially targetting caucus states that are not winner-take-all in order to collect as many delegates to the GOP national convention as possible voting in our favor. That is how GOP presidential primaries are won.


How many advocating what I think is a really big mistake have extensive political experience? We can then have a discussion of why or why this is not a good idea.

I'm not sure what you define as extensive. How many campaigns like Dr. Paul's have you had experience with? I can't imagine very many, since not very many constitutional conservatives/libertarians run for national office on the Republican party ticket. ;)


I'm honestly not trying to be a snob, but from a political perspective on any side of the aisle, trying to educate on a controversial issue while attempting to win an election never works. You might succeed in educating a few people, but the election will be certainly be lost.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. I don't think people will support Dr. Paul without becoming educated on at least some of these issues. The majority of US voters are wholly uneducated which is why we end up with the establishment candidates being elected based on mass media coverage, huge money expenditures, and soundbites - no substance. We don't have any of those, but we do have substance. This is a different kind of campaign, and we won't win by trying to use the same tactics as the establishment candidates. The mass media won't give us the same type/amount of coverage, Dr. Paul can't loan his campaign huge sums of money the way Romney can, and he's just not a 'soundbite' kind of guy. He's about substance, as a man, as a statesman, and as our candidate.


I am not willing to give up this opportunity to elect a Constitutionalist, as we may never have the chance again. Others of you may have a different agenda, but mine is to elect Ron Paul.

I don't find the whole "my agenda is to elect Ron Paul, people who disagree seem to have another agenda" crud at all helpful. It's bogus, and pointlessly divisive.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 06:39 PM
CJ, you're trusting an Economics professor on blind faith? You need to do the research. Much more than reading the books I cited. I think you will find they are true, but you will have to judge for yourself.

Are you aware that Mullins' book is based on interviews with Ezra Pound?


Watch this video on the Federal Reserve, put out by the Mises Institute:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553&q=%22federal+reserve%22&total=1513&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Murray Rothbard has also written extensively on it.

No, I am not trusting an econ professor on blind faith. His recount of history is in line with the body of literature from my studies.

Coming full circle to the von Mises Institute, proves my position. This is about competing economic theory, not sinister motivation of enslavement. Scaring people into believing that it is about world domination, etc will have extreme blowback when it's discovered this is nothing more than propaganda for an economic theory. Why start out being dishonest?

max
08-26-2007, 06:45 PM
As these movies gain momentum and popularity people who actually have been educated about the topics they talk about start to say "What the F* are you talking about, that's not what/how it happened". As those people refute the claims that A:F2F make, your activists will be disillusioned because they will look and feel foolish.


Your confusing "educated" with "miseducated"....Everything in AFFT is factual...Can u cite something that isnt?...Just 1 item?

same for loose change

JasonD
08-26-2007, 06:49 PM
Your confusing "educated" with "miseducated"....Everything in AFFT is factual...Can u cite something that isnt?...Just 1 item?

same for loose change

As for FTF, read the whole thread. This has been addressed earlier by cjhowe. I haven't seen loose change.

Scribbler de Stebbing
08-26-2007, 06:56 PM
We have no repository of decent video for commercials, DVDs, or anything else.

One guy on here had set something up for video uploads, but for the life of me, I can't remember his name.

We should at the very least be using torrent as video repository.

~ ~ ~

It's clear that some of you are not going to listen to reason about this DVD. That means that five Ron Paul supporters will need to spend five hours each to counteract the damage. We will do that at our own expense, knowing it is necessary not because of some innocent bumble, but that it is necessary to counteract damage in spite of the distributors being fully warned of the damage it would do the campaign.

It would be better for the campaign were those bent on distributing this movie in the name of Ron Paul to sit at home doing nothing. MUCH better.

There's nothing else I can say if you won't listen to 15 years worth of campaign experience from me.

mdh
08-26-2007, 07:23 PM
It's clear that some of you are not going to listen to reason about this DVD.

You claim that what you speak with is the voice of reason, but I've seen you present no evidence, nor even principled arguments - only "I say this, and it is right."


That means that five Ron Paul supporters will need to spend five hours each to counteract the damage. We will do that at our own expense, knowing it is necessary not because of some innocent bumble, but that it is necessary to counteract damage in spite of the distributors being fully warned of the damage it would do the campaign.

It would be better for the campaign were those bent on distributing this movie in the name of Ron Paul to sit at home doing nothing. MUCH better.

I'd say this is a rather unfortunate attitude. I wish you had chosen to reply to my very salient points and attempt to refute any of the claims I made so that we could have a genuine discussion on the matter.


There's nothing else I can say if you won't listen to 15 years worth of campaign experience from me.

How many of those campaigns were at all like Dr. Paul's? I'd say (based on the Bush Sr. picture.....) that I may have more political experience in pushing candidates such as Dr. Paul. Of course, I come from the party in which Dr. Paul first ran for president - against Bush Sr in 1988. ;)

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 07:35 PM
Your confusing "educated" with "miseducated"....Everything in AFFT is factual...Can u cite something that isnt?...Just 1 item?

same for loose change

You contend that everything is factual...give me some facts that are expressed in the movie. It's been over a year since I've seen it. I've already cited the overall themes as being wrong, but we can go over specifics if you'd like.

Man from La Mancha
08-26-2007, 07:54 PM
My mother and most my family and most of their friends I have met would never watch a DVD I gave them with The words Freedom to Fascism on it because they are all MSM brainwashed that the word Fascism means Hitler and on that basis alone it would not be watched. I think its delusional of the few that are here because of FTF DVD not to realize that is how the vast majority of sheeple are. Ron is mentioned in the DVD so enough said, just pass it out by itself. The sheeple don't like their Alice wonderland reality to be shattered.

What is needed now is introductory Ron Paul DVD for the sheeple that won't scare them away

.

WannaBfree
08-26-2007, 08:10 PM
how can I promote Ron Paul through the use of the dvd?

Im not sure if I should include information about Ron Paul with the dvd for fear of the people simply refusing to watch it because its not about THEIR candidate.


any ideas? I'm assuming I could throw a ron paul video on the end of the dvd. If someone could create an .iso with A:FtF and a ron paul for president blip at the end, I would really appreciate it.

I have had much success with the combo of the America: Freedom To Fascism and the Ron Paul 2008 dvds. AFTF will shake them out of their apathy and they will know who RP is from watching it. Obviously, the RP dvd will give them more info on him.

You can download a RP dvd here:
http://www.ronpauldvd.com/

if you're familiar with bittorrent this is available as well:
http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3728002/RON_PAUL_2008.iso

Here is a another bittorrent link to "Meet Ron Paul" which includes RP info and AFTF (as well as something on the North American Union):
http://www.mininova.org/tor/778520

All three are different dvds and from what I remember Ron Paul 2008 was the best quality. If your budget is low, or if you just want to double your output, then "Meet Ron Paul" might be your best bet as it's all on one dvd. The picture quality is not as good as RP2008 tho. One important note about "Meet Ron Paul": it has the following video clip on it which you'll have to decide on whether it would be ok for your target audience:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1671321257664384859

Good luck!

sorry if this dvd info has already been posted - I didn't read the whole thread.

BarryDonegan
08-26-2007, 08:38 PM
many of hte people i've turned on to ron paul, only was i able to do that after they spontaneously watched something like zeitgeist or america:freedom to fascism. after having watched that, knowing im educated on those type of subjects and libertarian, they asked me what to do, in total fear.

i point them RP's way. its hard to like ron paul if you don't fear whats happening. if you realize how high the stakes are, its easy to become obsessed with Paul

LibertyEagle
08-26-2007, 08:49 PM
No, I am not trusting an econ professor on blind faith. His recount of history is in line with the body of literature from my studies.


Get real. Do you honestly believe they're going to teach you in college that the Federal Reserve is a cabal who is printing money out of thin air?


Coming full circle to the von Mises Institute, proves my position. This is about competing economic theory, not sinister motivation of enslavement. Scaring people into believing that it is about world domination, etc will have extreme blowback when it's discovered this is nothing more than propaganda for an economic theory. Why start out being dishonest?


No, it most certainly does NOT prove your position. The existence of the Federal Reserve has nothing whatsoever to do with an "economic theory". It has to do with reality.

CJ, why are you voting for Dr. Paul? You don't seem to have much in common with his beliefs at all.

4Horsemen
08-26-2007, 08:52 PM
A:F2F starts out by claiming that there have been two great hoaxes perpetrated on the American people. Yet, you want to advocate change by perpetrating another hoax. This doesn't make sense to me.

Passing out hundreds of DVDs that lie to people is not going to move the debate on the proper role of government. The issues that are ruling the day; healthcare, pre-emptive war, globalization, medicinal marijuana, tax reform and education provide ample room to change people's minds away from the nanny state and towards freedom and personal responsibility. Lying to people undermines the argument and makes your position on them less credible.

Show me the law that makes one liable to pay taxes on their wages? Why doesn't the IRS show the law?

LibertyEagle
08-26-2007, 08:52 PM
My mother and most my family and most of their friends I have met would never watch a DVD I gave them with The words Freedom to Fascism on it because they are all MSM brainwashed that the word Fascism means Hitler and on that basis alone it would not be watched. I think its delusional of the few that are here because of FTF DVD not to realize that is how the vast majority of sheeple are. Ron is mentioned in the DVD so enough said, just pass it out by itself. The sheeple don't like their Alice wonderland reality to be shattered.

What is needed now is introductory Ron Paul DVD for the sheeple that won't scare them away

.

Agreed! Please do not hand out AFTF DVDs at the same time you hand out Ron Paul literature, unless you KNOW for a fact that your audience will be receptive to that approach.

max
08-26-2007, 09:02 PM
****Coming full circle to the von Mises Institute, proves my position. This is about competing economic theory, not sinister motivation of enslavement. Scaring people into believing that it is about world domination, etc will have extreme blowback when it's discovered this is nothing more than propaganda for an economic theory. Why start out being dishonest?*****

"Competing economic theory?"...LOL

Thats like saying that the dispute between Al Capone and Elliot Ness was over "competing theories of commerce"

the only difference is that Capone and his cronies never bought up the media and the universities. if he had, the Harvard school of business would be praising Big Al as a visionary and justifying the st. valentines massacre.

max
08-26-2007, 09:06 PM
Agreed! Please do not hand out AFTF DVDs at the same time you hand out Ron Paul literature, unless you KNOW for a fact that your audience will be receptive to that approach.

i will agree that Russo could have come up with a better title...because people do judge a book by its cover sometimes

mdh
08-26-2007, 09:12 PM
Agreed! Please do not hand out AFTF DVDs at the same time you hand out Ron Paul literature, unless you KNOW for a fact that your audience will be receptive to that approach.

This could be better said as: Never do anything unless you KNOW you will likely have the best success rate possible based on your target demographic.

Don't half-ass your efforts.

LibertyEagle
08-26-2007, 09:29 PM
Ok. I'll buy that. :) Except, do we want to push the "don't do anything" angle? I'm just saying.....
j/k

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 09:35 PM
Get real. Do you honestly believe they're going to teach you in college that the Federal Reserve is a cabal who is printing money out of thin air?

Actually, that's precisely what they teach in college at the graduate level. One school of thought (economic theory) teaches that this is perfectly fine. That it is the velocity of money rather than the supply of it that is important to economic success and the ability to efficiently bring a variety of goods to consumers thus increasing (by definition) the standard of living.

However, they don't teach you that it's the workings of the elite who conspire to enslave the masses. That's left to those without enough background and a streak of paranoia about them.



No, it most certainly does NOT prove your position. The existence of the Federal Reserve has nothing whatsoever to do with an "economic theory". It has to do with reality.

The contention, not the existence, with the Fed is based on economic theory. The conspiracies surrounding the Fed is simply fear so that people don't have to think of why one school of thought is better than another.


CJ, why are you voting for Dr. Paul? You don't seem to have much in common with his beliefs at all.

On many of the issues I do agree with his beliefs. The beliefs that I don't agree with, I generally agree of where he wants the debate to take place.

I'm personally pro-choice, but I agree that RvW was not the jurisdiction of the federal government. I don't agree with his stance on immigration, but do agree that we need to end the entitlement system at least from the federal government.

On the issue of the Fed and on the FIT, I do agree with him. The Fed should not exist to be a blind lender to Congress, it's dangerous. The FIT provides too much money for Congress to subvert state's rights and individual freedoms. This subversion limits the voices that are heard on various issues to those that can get a national audience.

cjhowe
08-26-2007, 09:46 PM
Show me the law that makes one liable to pay taxes on their wages? Why doesn't the IRS show the law?

Why can't the employees at Wal-Mart tell me what aisle the sugar is on?

I don't know how many times I'll have to repeat this in the same thread.

1) The Wilson-Gorman Tariff Act of 1894 imposed the FIT (there were others before it that were repealed and there have been others since it that have superceded it.)

2) SCOTUS case Pollock v. Farmers Loan & Trust Co ruled that the FIT was unconstitutional because it did not apportion the proceeds of the tax based on census or enumeration. Of note, when the SCOTUS deems something unconstitutional it does repeal the law. It simply makes it unenforceable.

3) The 16th amendment, in the people's check and balance over the SCOTUS, was ratified allowing for the FIT, specifically, to be collected without apportionment. Thus, the Wilson-Gorman Tariff Act of 1894 and those FITs that supersede it became enforceable.

giskard
08-27-2007, 10:13 AM
Dr. Edward Flaherty debunks the Jekyll island myth and gives a pretty decent history of the events leading up to the Federal Reserve Act
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3616/flaherty1.html

I didn't read through the entire second link you provided, but skipped to the Q&A for credibility. The majority of those are debunked on Flaherty's site
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html

CJ, Griffin has answered Flaherty's assertions:
http://www.freedom-force.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=meetflaherty&refpage=issues

cjhowe
08-27-2007, 11:32 AM
CJ, Griffin has answered Flaherty's assertions:
http://www.freedom-force.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=meetflaherty&refpage=issues

Very nice. Griffin runs away from the conspiratory explanation of the Fed, and very astutely runs into the arms of competing economic theory. The point in question that removes the connotation of the conspiracy motivation of the Fed is that the Aldrich bill (Jekyll island) had the banks appoint the Board of Governors, had that bill passed, you can give your sinister argument for the Fed. Since that provision did not pass and the Board of Governors is appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, the conspiracy is removed. You can cite influence in the process all you want, but because your Senators have a role in the process, the people have oversight. At the end of the day, the role of the Federal Reserve that people complain about can exist in the free market (bank of last resort, etc). The role that would not exist absent the Federal Reserve Act, is easy credit for Congress. This is the part that people should be upset about, but they'd rather be concerned about a conspiracy. The easy credit for Congress allows them to enact legislation that they don't have the authority to do.

It's like in your household. One partner will get in trouble for every purchase they make if they spend out of the checking account. But if they put it on the card, they only have to answer to it at the end of the month.

jj111
08-27-2007, 12:13 PM
I don't think "the people" tend to exercise as much "oversight" over the Senate as much in practice as in theory. Most people don't even know who their Senators are. I would guess that less than one in ten thousand people has ever been given the opportunity to speak one-on-one with a Senator for more than 5 minutes. With black box voting, we don't even know if the elections are valid anymore. I don't buy the assertion that "the people" in this country exercise strict "oversight" over the Congress.

cjhowe
08-27-2007, 12:18 PM
I don't think "the people" tend to exercise as much "oversight" over the Senate as much in practice as in theory. Most people don't even know who their Senators are. I would guess that less than one in ten thousand people has ever been given the opportunity to speak one-on-one with a Senator for more than 5 minutes. With black box voting, we don't even know if the elections are valid anymore. I don't buy the assertion that "the people" in this country exercise strict "oversight" over the Congress.

That is irrelevant. That the people are apathetic makes the consequences of the Fed, the people's fault, not a sinister conspiracy to enslave people.