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Nirvikalpa
06-13-2008, 02:04 PM
What do you think about this interview?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=770111630

40% of all High School students never take a science class beyond Biology.
60% of all Engineering degrees being issued in the US are to foreign nationals.
50% of US Students that enter college must take Remedial Courses.

:eek:

Truth Warrior
06-13-2008, 02:05 PM
Just for the last 100 years or so. :rolleyes:

Mesogen
06-13-2008, 02:43 PM
Is our childrens learning?

OptionsTrader
06-13-2008, 02:46 PM
Gym teachers and corporate dropouts teach American History and some people wonder why we do not have more constitutionalists.

Primbs
06-13-2008, 03:18 PM
They are failing.

kombayn
06-13-2008, 04:06 PM
When people are pushing for the platform of school vouchers, that's a big fucking YES SIR it is.

Ceos
08-05-2008, 05:52 AM
Yeah.. its true, but where to point the finger?

Mississippi has the lowest per capita spending on students. Teachers barely make minimum wage. Are they motivated to teach properly? When they have to worry about how they are going to pay the bills instead of effective ways to communicate, is it not a surprise? I work with a guy from MI and he told me how crappy his schooling was.

I went through advanced classes (mostly, except for English) when I was in a public HS in 9th grade. I had adv history, geometry,biology, spanish(der Schule hat keine Duetsch) some random elective stuff, and a "normal" english class. Classes were fine, teachers were motivated to teach us and the student were willing to learn. However, when it came to my "normal" english class, it was a horrendous. Teacher tried to teach, but only a few of us would listen. She'd been teaching there for years, and I just couldn't see how she kept teaching. I didn't learn much of anything in that class.

I got some letters written from my high school (sent to me through a local yellow ribbon group) and the grammar in these letters matched that of a 5-grader (if even that).

So, who is really at fault? Do kids nowadays fail to see the importance of education? Do parents not care anymore? Are teachers not qualified enough?

And about the remedial courses: I had to teach one of my warrant OFFICERS basic algebra. Here is this guy I'm supposed to trust his technical expertise to know how to run shop properly and he doesn't know that -2-8=-10, not 6! God I swear. Took me 15 minutes to explain it to him (cause he had a 25 question online course he needed help him)and got plenty of funny looks from him too. When I'm viewed as "smart" by people nearly twice my age (and they make over twice as much money as me) because I took AP calc in HS, I feel like I'm in the movie Idiocracy. Reasons I'm getting out of the army.

Luckily(If you wanna consider it that) I ended up at a private school from 10-12. Wasn't too bad there

tonesforjonesbones
08-05-2008, 07:15 AM
I'm quite sure it has to do with several factors. You might think this is weird but here goes..

1. television and music industry
2. Mom's had to go to work and leave the children
3. propaganda put out that "those who can't do...teach" which minimized the importance of becoming a teacher
4. government intervention in the schools
5. deliberate dumbing down of america (there's a book you can read it online..part of the plan)


That's my take on it. Tones

brandon
08-05-2008, 07:33 AM
Gym teachers and corporate dropouts teach American History and some people wonder why we do not have more constitutionalists.

Yep...

And people who studied "education" in college try to teach mathematics....and people wonder why 60% of our engineering graduates are foreigners.

acptulsa
08-05-2008, 08:12 AM
Oh, the schools are not alone in this. The parents are failing, too. They just can't keep up with the times. For example:

"Johnny, you must study hard in school, get a well-rounded education, and learn how to use the English language properly so you can be president some day."

"Have you ever listened to the president?! Massive FAIL, Mom!"

noxagol
08-05-2008, 11:10 AM
Failing? I think they failed a long time ago. We are too stupid from that failure to realize we have been failed upon.

Conza88
08-05-2008, 11:13 AM
It's by design...

The One
08-05-2008, 11:17 AM
Is our childrens learning?

You beat me.:(

The_Orlonater
08-25-2008, 08:36 AM
This is what happens when Beaurocrats take control. I know a lot of you might attack me for this. While I agree with everything said here, it's also a lot of the children's fault. The youth is freaking crazy. I sware I argued with one kid for 10 minutes about electing Obama because he's black. Oh my god, I don't know where to start. It's because of the mainstream media, they're also hurting this country. Have you seen most of their myspaces..?

It's freaking gross.

torchbearer
08-25-2008, 08:44 AM
not- are failing, but- have failed.

Primbs
08-25-2008, 08:48 AM
They have revamped the SAT many times and many claim it is much easier than before. You cannot even compare old test scores to new test scores because of this manipulation.

Truth Warrior
08-25-2008, 08:49 AM
Questions: What percentage of this year's seniors and last year's high school graduates could pass the following 8th grade test required in 1895, even if the few outdated questions were modernized? How many college students could pass it? For that matter, what percentage of high school teachers could pass it? And - - what percentage of today's schools have standards for promotion from 8th grade equal to or tougher than those required in 1895?


8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, Kansas - 1895
This is the eighth-grade final exam* from 1895 from Salina, Kansas. It was taken
from the original document on file at the Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
and Library in Salina, Kansas and reprinted by the Salina Journal.


http://mwhodges.home.att.net/1895-test.htm (http://mwhodges.home.att.net/1895-test.htm)



Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!! (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf)
Right click and "Save Link As"
Click here to begin download
File is 6.75 MB (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf)

adara7537
08-25-2008, 09:19 AM
I'd would think most high school seniors and high school graduates wouldn't' be able to pass their own 8th grade final again let alone one from 1895.

Repetition, repetition, repetition. Once it stops-if they weren't interested, they won't remember.

Sally08
08-25-2008, 09:31 AM
Questions: What percentage of this year's seniors and last year's high school graduates could pass the following 8th grade test required in 1895, even if the few outdated questions were modernized? How many college students could pass it? For that matter, what percentage of high school teachers could pass it? And - - what percentage of today's schools have standards for promotion from 8th grade equal to or tougher than those required in 1895?

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, Kansas - 1895
This is the eighth-grade final exam* from 1895 from Salina, Kansas. It was taken
from the original document on file at the Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
and Library in Salina, Kansas and reprinted by the Salina Journal.

Take a look at this Snopes commentary:
http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp

What I find of even more interest is the example of what content *teachers* were expected to know in the late *1870s" (about halfway down the page).

Sorry - Snopes has ability to copy/paste blocked or I would have copied a couple of examples.

*Definitely*, teachers of today have never even been exposed to most of that content, not in Education classes nor even in Honors English.

Truth Warrior
08-25-2008, 09:39 AM
Take a look at this Snopes commentary:
http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp

What I find of even more interest is the example of what content *teachers* were expected to know in the late *1870s" (about halfway down the page).

Sorry - Snopes has ability to copy/paste blocked or I would have copied a couple of examples.

*Definitely*, teachers of today have never even been exposed to most of that content, not in Education classes nor even in Honors English.

I guess that Snopes is entitled to it's DOE / NEA opinion. :rolleyes:

:D

Kade
08-25-2008, 09:50 AM
If you apply the same "statisical gauge" to homeschooling, you find that things are much, much worse on the other side.

But they use a different gauge for success... excellence in brainwashing.

Sally08
08-25-2008, 09:52 AM
I'd would think most high school seniors and high school graduates wouldn't' be able to pass their own 8th grade final again let alone one from 1895.

Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader - "Jeopardy for Dummies".

However, if adults have never used those facts, then why are students being required to master them?

Where is the public discussion (vs. mandated No Child Left Behind) of what facts should be memorized vs. looked up if/when needed?


Repetition, repetition, repetition. Once it stops-if they weren't interested, they won't remember.

In school, the phrase is "Drill to Kill", particularly in relation to memorizing math facts/becoming *fluent* with functional arithmetic vs. calculator usage.

Hmmm, didn't the Olympics just clearly demonstrate that "Practice Makes Perfect"?

Sally08
08-25-2008, 09:57 AM
The very first exposure to school in Kindergarten is socialism:

"For Kindergarten, please mark only the two pocket folders, the Art smock, and the book bag with your child's name. All other supplies are shared. "

Shared supplies: pencils, crayons, markers, glue

Where is personal responsibility learned for not losing (or taking home) such items?

http://www.ipsd.org/Documents/SchoolSupplyLists/Steck.pdf

Truth Warrior
08-25-2008, 09:59 AM
And yet many of the H.S. grads working in fast food, can't even correctly make change, nor even figure out how, when the cash register does the math.

Pathetic!

Sally08
08-25-2008, 10:10 AM
I guess that Snopes is entitled to it's DOE / NEA opinion. :rolleyes:

:D

Actually, I went to Snopes, because I thought I had read posts that disputed the validity of the test itself.

What the Snopes link does is dispute the logic of the statement that that test "demonstrates a shocking decline in educational standards":

What nearly all these pundits fail to grasp is "I can't answer these questions" is not the same thing as "These questions demonstrate that students in earlier days were better educated than today's students."...If a 40-year-old can't score as well on a geography test as a high school student who just spent several weeks memorizing the names of all the rivers in South America in preparation for an exam, that doesn't mean the 40-year-old's education was woefully deficient - it means the-sic- he simply didn't retain information for which he had not use, no matter how throughly it was drilled into his brain through rote memory some twenty-odd years earlier.

And isn't that exactly what "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader" is proving?

Should anyone be forced to waste his/her time memorizing the rivers in South America, when such a large percentage of adults, including college graduates, are functionally illiterate with reading, writing, and arithmetic that Gatto believes can be taught in 100 hours?

Truth Warrior
08-25-2008, 10:19 AM
Actually, I went to Snopes, because I thought I had read posts that disputed the validity of the test itself.

What the Snopes link does is dispute the logic of the statement that that test "demonstrates a shocking decline in educational standards":

What nearly all these pundits fail to grasp is "I can't answer these questions" is not the same thing as "These questions demonstrate that students in earlier days were better educated than today's students."...If a 40-year-old can't score as well on a geography test as a high school student who just spent several weeks memorizing the names of all the rivers in South America in preparation for an exam, that doesn't mean the 40-year-old's education was woefully deficient - it means the-sic- he simply didn't retain information for which he had not use, no matter how throughly it was drilled into his brain through rote memory some twenty-odd years earlier.

And isn't that exactly what "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader" is proving?

Should anyone be forced to waste his/her time memorizing the rivers in South America, when such a large percentage of adults, including college graduates, are functionally illiterate with reading, writing, and arithmetic that Gatto believes can be taught in 100 hours? Rote learning and memorization is a critical step in the brain use development process. 3 R's! ;)

revolutionist
08-25-2008, 08:41 PM
Schools are designed not to teach intelligence. They want a stupid and obedient workforce that doesn't think too much. I think the Federal Government is getting what they paid for.

Truth Warrior
08-25-2008, 08:50 PM
Schools are designed not to teach intelligence. They want a stupid and obedient workforce that doesn't think too much. I think the Federal Government is getting what they paid for. Since the very beginning the "government" school "brainwash programming" primary agenda has been to produce "good citizens" ( so called ).

Vote, pay your taxes, do as you're told, sit down, shut up, don't ask any questions, don't rock the boat nor make any waves. :p :rolleyes:

user
08-25-2008, 08:58 PM
Government schooling is a failure.

Government-supported schooling is a failure.

muzzled dogg
08-25-2008, 09:01 PM
i think public schools are successful in brainwashing the american youth

Sally08
08-25-2008, 09:31 PM
Actually, the "conspiracy thinkers" who were warning about the New World Order, CFR, Bilderbergers, ... a decade ago were explaining that the dumbing down of US kids was intentional.

How could you have a NWO when the U.S. citizens were shoulders above every other country?

If dumbing down was the goal, then the government-run, tax-funded (GRTF) schools have been very successful.

Conza88
08-25-2008, 09:41 PM
Dismantle Public Education
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swl8frWSNEQ)

The_Orlonater
08-27-2008, 10:10 AM
I was once told I have no constitutional right in school. No joke.

TheEvilDetector
08-27-2008, 11:03 AM
Questions: What percentage of this year's seniors and last year's high school graduates could pass the following 8th grade test required in 1895, even if the few outdated questions were modernized? How many college students could pass it? For that matter, what percentage of high school teachers could pass it? And - - what percentage of today's schools have standards for promotion from 8th grade equal to or tougher than those required in 1895?


8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, Kansas - 1895
This is the eighth-grade final exam* from 1895 from Salina, Kansas. It was taken
from the original document on file at the Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
and Library in Salina, Kansas and reprinted by the Salina Journal.


http://mwhodges.home.att.net/1895-test.htm (http://mwhodges.home.att.net/1895-test.htm)



Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!! (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf)
Right click and "Save Link As"
Click here to begin download
File is 6.75 MB (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf)

In case anyone was wondering, the answers to that 1895 test are here:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/1895examcomp.html

I will admit that I would have failed that test horribly if I had to take it.

On the other hand, if I had a few days to spend on google, I would have a fair chance of memorising sufficient information to pass.

Generally, people tend to forget academically provided memories, if they are complex and not used at all.

I cannot remember 95% of the data provided to me during the lessons in high school maths and science classes.

I think that is normal, we cannot keep every bit of information or our heads would explode LOL.

If the teachers taught all of these things to kids these days, then I have no doubt kids would pass, but first the kids would have to get past
the television, the computer games, the sex, the violence, the drugs, the entertainments, so that they could focus even for a minute..

Tall order.

Also, there is a strong focus in the test on correct grammar and linguistic rules in general. While this was very useful back then, it must be said that in the modern world,
with all the computers, networks, mobiles, with all the abbreviations commonly used, with all the typing, rather than writing that goes on, the english language
is undergoing a transformation, and sadly we are not going to recover the full and proper form of the language ever (as per the 1895 standard) again, save for historical and academic purposes, eg U for You, Pik for Pick, wen for When, gonna for going, iz for is (all kinds of sms type abbreviations) + lol, wtf, iirc, (all acronyms, that are being used in place of words and whole phrases and may become words in their own right, given that words simply communicate ideas) eg. LOL will simply mean laughing loud, rather than being an acronym for laughing out loud..

This is driven by speed and economy of modern electronics communications, something that a world comprised entirely of pen and paper cannot compare to.

Overall it is a pretty comprehensive test, that borrows a lot of material from science, reminds me of my highschool days, when I studied Advanced Maths, Biology, Chemistry, Physics (I used to like science alot back then, nowdays not as much as I tend to have an appreciation for things with a practical application rather than pure abstract theory).

I believe one skill that has never been taught, not in 1895 nor in 2008 is critical thinking/problem solving, ie. given a particular problem (maths, science, life, finance, whatever), ask the student to break it down and suggest possible methods at arriving at a solution (seek creativity from a student), RATHER than producing a memory based solution or rehashing a memorised method. These all have their place of course, but the focus on those should not be exclusive.

Sally08
08-27-2008, 01:11 PM
Also, there is a strong focus in the test on correct grammar and linguistic rules in general. While this was very useful back then, it must be said that in the modern world, with all the computers, networks, mobiles, with all the abbreviations commonly used, with all the typing, rather than writing that goes on, the english language is undergoing a transformation, and sadly we are not going to recover the full and proper form of the language ever (as per the 1895 standard) again, save for historical and academic purposes, eg U for You, Pik for Pick, wen for When, gonna for going, iz for is (all kinds of sms type abbreviations) + lol, wtf, iirc, (all acronyms, that are being used in place of words and whole phrases and may become words in their own right, given that words simply communicate ideas) eg. LOL will simply mean laughing loud, rather than being an acronym for laughing out loud..

This is driven by speed and economy of modern electronics communications, something that a world comprised entirely of pen and paper cannot compare to.

Unfortunately, it will be another 10-15 years before the generation who still *does* know grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc. dies off.

When such elements are totally skipped by RP supporters, many/most of whom are in/have graduated college, yet appear totally illiterate in the posted word, why would older, literate adults listen to their political views?

Even in pencil and paper days, there were different expectations for family letters and documents submitted to bosses or to instructors, so LOL is no different.

UNLESS it is used in articles submitted for online or printed publication, which devalues the article by definition.

I have copies of news alerts from major MSM organizations with SPELLING ERRORS in the subject lines! Not impressive, huh?

And a young adult I know types over 100 WPM, so the length of time to type full sentences with correct spelling is probably less than typing awkwardyly located abbreviations (which the recipient may not even understand - another poor communication issue).

And it's also obvious that spell checkers fail for homonyms (that's words like their, they're, and there).

My favorite is "its" vs. "it's" - wrong usage almost 100% of the time.

The biggest failure of education is that college- educated students, after 16+ years in schools, are functionally illiterate in writing (reading, and arithmetic, as well).

Conza88
08-27-2008, 07:52 PM
In case anyone was wondering, the answers to that 1895 test are here:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/1895examcomp.html

I will admit that I would have failed that test horribly if I had to take it.

On the other hand, if I had a few days to spend on google, I would have a fair chance of memorising sufficient information to pass.

Hahah yeah If I had to take the test now, I probably wouldn't pass. But really... so what? They know grammar and punctuation and other pretty much meaningless stuff. I know about what's going on in the world... :cool: Let them debate me on rights etc... [Haha, they would probably be at the same level as me / if not better - as they would have learnt Civics / true American history? :)] They're at a disadvantage though.. Mises, Rothbard etc... weren't around yet :D

Truth Warrior
08-28-2008, 03:31 AM
In case anyone was wondering, the answers to that 1895 test are here:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/1895examcomp.html

I will admit that I would have failed that test horribly if I had to take it.

On the other hand, if I had a few days to spend on google, I would have a fair chance of memorising sufficient information to pass.

Generally, people tend to forget academically provided memories, if they are complex and not used at all.

I cannot remember 95% of the data provided to me during the lessons in high school maths and science classes.

I think that is normal, we cannot keep every bit of information or our heads would explode LOL.

If the teachers taught all of these things to kids these days, then I have no doubt kids would pass, but first the kids would have to get past
the television, the computer games, the sex, the violence, the drugs, the entertainments, so that they could focus even for a minute..

Tall order.

Also, there is a strong focus in the test on correct grammar and linguistic rules in general. While this was very useful back then, it must be said that in the modern world,
with all the computers, networks, mobiles, with all the abbreviations commonly used, with all the typing, rather than writing that goes on, the english language
is undergoing a transformation, and sadly we are not going to recover the full and proper form of the language ever (as per the 1895 standard) again, save for historical and academic purposes, eg U for You, Pik for Pick, wen for When, gonna for going, iz for is (all kinds of sms type abbreviations) + lol, wtf, iirc, (all acronyms, that are being used in place of words and whole phrases and may become words in their own right, given that words simply communicate ideas) eg. LOL will simply mean laughing loud, rather than being an acronym for laughing out loud..

This is driven by speed and economy of modern electronics communications, something that a world comprised entirely of pen and paper cannot compare to.

Overall it is a pretty comprehensive test, that borrows a lot of material from science, reminds me of my highschool days, when I studied Advanced Maths, Biology, Chemistry, Physics (I used to like science alot back then, nowdays not as much as I tend to have an appreciation for things with a practical application rather than pure abstract theory).

I believe one skill that has never been taught, not in 1895 nor in 2008 is critical thinking/problem solving, ie. given a particular problem (maths, science, life, finance, whatever), ask the student to break it down and suggest possible methods at arriving at a solution (seek creativity from a student), RATHER than producing a memory based solution or rehashing a memorised method. These all have their place of course, but the focus on those should not be exclusive. I could pass it, but not ace it, and not in the 8th grade. ;)

BTW, in 1895 Salina, Kansas was just another small very typical Kansas farming community. Pass the test or just go back and work on the farm. :)

Government is much less than thrilled with "critical thinking" abilities. :D

A. Havnes
08-30-2008, 02:56 PM
You mean to say that America doesn't have the best education in the world?! :rolleyes:

I graduated from high school four years ago, being one of the only students in my (tiny) class who could read, write, and speak in complete sentences. Here's a quick rundown of the riveting education (sarcasm alert) that my school puts kids through.

1. English - I was blessed with wonderful English teachers, but my brother isn't. After I graduated, the best English teacher in Minnesta (in my opinion) retired, and the one who replaced her is a feminist who gives all other feminists a bad name by also being extremely sexist. She also can't spell at all, doesn't allow her students to read books in her class (but they can watch the movies), and has the vocabulary of a 15-year-old! Heck, this year's students weren't even allowed to read The Scarlet Letter just because some paragraphs only consisted on one lengthy sentence. She also has a great dislike for Ron Paul; she failed my brother's reading assignment simply because he read The Revolution: A Manifesto, and she's a Clinton supporter.

2. Math - My first math teacher was quite brilliant, but unfortunately after some terrible elementary math teachers, her lessons went over most people's heads. She also had an interesting grading system that went like this: if you get less than 98% on any given math assignment, you're not allowed to turn it in and must instead redo it until you get 98% of the questions correct. However, when you did turn it in, you'd only get credit for 50% of the questions anyway. If you got, say, 97% and went ahead and turned it in anyway, the assignment would be counted as "missing" and handed back to you, after which you would only get credit for 50% of the assignment once you handed it back in.
I did have one good math teacher, though, but she was fired when the afformentioned math teacher was promoted to principal.

3. Science - These classes were jokes. First of all, biology was never required. All you had to learn was elementary science and the rest were optional, and none of the classes were very informative.

4. Civics and Economics - Both of these were required, and both were taught by extremely biased democrats. We were taught that republicans wanted a monarchy, but the democrats are the party that serves the people. Actually, our political studies were so skewed, you'd think they were being taught by anchor men from Fox News! No wonder everyone who takes these classes are voting democrat this time!

5. History - These lessons weren't bad, except that it was all limited to American history. After so many classes of American history a person becomes very disinterested. I enjoy world history, but that wasn't an option in our school.

I won't go into any other classes because they weren't required (except for P.E, but no one cares about excersise anymore).;)

Grimnir Wotansvolk
08-30-2008, 05:34 PM
Our entire philosophy on what constitutes a proper education has failed. What little we had right to begin with was swallowed up by standardized testing, compulsory attendance. public funding, and "diversity".

revolutionist
08-31-2008, 12:22 AM
I was once told I have no constitutional right in school. No joke.


Look up Tinker v. Des Moines

revolutionman
08-31-2008, 10:57 AM
Snopes

that test is real but taken out of context.

American education is in a miserable state.

i dont think this video makes the best arguments for that, but the system is certainly failing. School, above all else, is supposed to teach students how to learn. It fails miserably at that task, especially since Every Child left Behind has started forcing districts to teach to the test. Now our students are only learning what they need to know in order to pass the tests and graduate. Thats the bare minimum. thats the great focus of the American public education system, the bare minimum.