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View Full Version : Why I didn't become a libertarian.




Indy4Chng
06-08-2008, 06:35 PM
I grew up with hardcore Republican parents (owned small business and they said they were the party that care about small businesses). So in 2000 (first election I could vote) I registered as a Republican and voted for Bush. However soon after I started listening to Michael Savage (I know you all probably hate him) he was conservative and would rip Bush's policies and what he said made sense, so I unregistered as a republican and became Independent. I voted for Bush again in 2004 and have been so disgusted with him ever sense.

Then once the media selected McCain as the 2008 Repub nomination I was so fed up with the repubs (as were many of my "NeoCon" friends) I started to look at third parties, vowing not to support the republican party in any way. I went to the LP website and was really impressed with what they had to say. Based on reading thier view of the world I was on board. Then about a week later I heard Bob Barr interviewed on Glenn Beck before the LP convention. For the first time I realized the error in my thinking on the Patriot act as he pointed out. See If a treehugger talks about the environment I tune him out, so when peacenik (ultra liberal) talks about the Patriot act I would tune them out, but Barr was an x-republican and he was ripping it so I actually listened and he made a ton of sense. I was totally wrong about the Patriot act. I was sold, ready to donate, vote do whatever I could as a Libertarian.

Then I went to the blogs and realized what a bunch of idiots the libertarians are (I am stereotyping but in my life there is usually a lot of truth to stereotypes expecially at a macro level). They don't care about liberty principles they only care about being the 40 old living in a basement with their parents because the world does not work exactly as it should. I'm talking about all the 100% idealist comments of writing Ron Paul in or nothing.

We are at step 1, most liberty (constitutional) minded people would like to be at step 100 (let's call it Ron Paul's view of the world). Now any rational person knows that Ron Paul was not going to get the Repulican nomination, you can't be a 100% idealist and win an election, but he was able to greatly spread the message. Now you have a guy (Bob Barr) who will continue to spread the message and is a little more moderate so he will open the ears to people like me yet the libertarians rip him to pieces. Barr is not going to get elected, so if you think he is full of BS who cares, the "BS" that is coming out is his mouth is the principles you say you believe in. But by attackign him for his past and the fact you think he is a NeoCon spy you have shown that Libertarian is just an idea and not a real political movement. This is not going to get him in the national debates. Get over yourselves and actually support the movement (you say you belive in, maybe you all are McCain spys), then maybe peope like me who always have been libertarian, but did not know, can join and support your party. If we don't get a consolidated voice heard this election we are still going to be at step 1, at best, in 2010, more likely step -10.

For the record my current beliefs are (in order of importance)
1. Repeal McCain Feistein! (always believe this)
2. Abolish the fed (always believed this)
3. Control Spending and Keep taxes low ( I prefer the flat tax to the fair tax but I think we are nitpicking here)
4. Legalize all drugs (always believed this)
5. Elimate as much federal power as possible and return to states (always believed this)
6. Get out of Iraq and other foreign contries (rencent convert of this)
7. Protect our borders, take care of America first - how about a fence at our borders first - 120% against amnesty. (always believed this)
8. Abolish the Patriot Act (recent convert on this)
9. Support legalized gambling (but come on is it really that hard to gamble if you want to)
10. Support right of abortion before the first tri-mester (although I hope people would choose not to) and consider it murder after such a time and s/b illegal
11. Think 9-11 conspirators are 40 year basement guy (come on Bush can't be a genious (which he would have to be to pull that off) and an Idiot at the same time)

FindLiberty
06-08-2008, 06:39 PM
Thank you... good points. I think there is hope for the LP.

OptionsTrader
06-08-2008, 06:40 PM
What is the purpose of this thread?

Truth Warrior
06-08-2008, 06:41 PM
Are you calling the LP, libertarians????

orafi
06-08-2008, 06:45 PM
I don't believe in parties, myself.

AutoDas
06-08-2008, 08:16 PM
Those libertarians are not Libertarians of the official party. I think the same as you do so I hope you don't stop voting for Barr because of those people. Ron Paul is not my idea of a perfect libertarian, but he attracts new voters so I'm just spreading his message.

pinkmandy
06-08-2008, 08:36 PM
Very interesting pov. Thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of Republicans are very libertarian, we just have to show them that. Are your neocon friends looking at 3rd parties, too? Any feedback on more we could be doing, different methods perhaps, in attracting them or at least getting them to have a look?

And btw, Bush is not an idiot. He is fully aware of what his administration has done. The dumb act is just that. It keeps Americans off guard thinking they are smarter than him. Check out OLD footage of W running for Governor. The man was slick and well spoken, polished in speech.

Indy4Chng
06-08-2008, 11:34 PM
#3 the point of thread was that this is a great concept that I always believed but didn't know there was a real platform for it, and to show my impression of what the "truthers" are doing to the cause. Now if all you want is 500k to 1000k hardcore ideoligists, great you can be dismissed like any other third party, but if you want some real political traction then maybe you consider supporting a less then perfect but 1000x better alternative for the betterment of the liberty cause. This is a once every may 4 pres. election opportunity, we need to make the most of it and rally behind the person who will bring the message to the most people. Who know when this opportunity will present itself again.

I think the main thing we can do is support Barr... lets face it a lot more republicans are going to be open to considering a third candidate then Democrats (based on a poll I saw that 82% of dems were satisfied with their choice vs. 26% of reps) and he is the perfect poster child for upset republicans. I think you have Paul who is great at attracting young independents (with his ideologism) and you have Barr able to take a more moderate approach which is necessary to get long time republicans to hear this. Most of them believe it, they just have never been open to hearing the message. A lot of enlightenment can take place this year, if we can just agree to get behind a less then perfect but much better than the normal alternatives. How can I refer others to this message when they will read every other thread on how awful Barr is.

BTW IMHO it is much better to see "I support Baldwin for xyz reason" then ripping Barr how can that help? Also please, please stop saying you will write in Paul, what good will that do, at least a Baldwin vote will show up somewhere. There are some smart people out there, someone will add up the increase in LP & CP votes and say maybe we should listen to these people and we could swing future elections in our favor, but don't stay home and don't write in a candidate not on a ballot and stop bashing Barr and Baldwin, but by all means lets instead bash away at McCain and Obama.

rossl
06-09-2008, 10:25 AM
Don't judge the whole party on a few annoying bloggers.

Truth Warrior
06-09-2008, 10:32 AM
Statists != libertarians. ( For only about the Bajillionth time. :rolleyes: )

Andrew-Austin
06-09-2008, 11:11 AM
For the first time I realized the error in my thinking on the Patriot act as he pointed out. See If a treehugger talks about the environment I tune him out, so when peacenik (ultra liberal) talks about the Patriot act I would tune them out, but Barr was an x-republican and he was ripping it so I actually listened and he made a ton of sense.

That was really close minded of you to just block out what someone is saying just because you've attached a certain label to their person. I don't care what someones political/philosophical standing is, if their making a good point then they are making a good point that does not need to be ignored.

So now you are bashing Libetarians due to their supposed arrogrance, and from the sound of it you used to be an arrogant neo-con.


Then I went to the blogs and realized what a bunch of idiots the libertarians are (I am stereotyping but in my life there is usually a lot of truth to stereotypes expecially at a macro level). They don't care about liberty principles they only care about being the 40 old living in a basement with their parents because the world does not work exactly as it should. I'm talking about all the 100% idealist comments of writing Ron Paul in or nothing.

So those who rigidly stick to principle live in their parents basement, got it...




We are at step 1, most liberty (constitutional) minded people would like to be at step 100 (let's call it Ron Paul's view of the world). Now any rational person knows that Ron Paul was not going to get the Repulican nomination, you can't be a 100% idealist and win an election, but he was able to greatly spread the message. Now you have a guy (Bob Barr) who will continue to spread the message and is a little more moderate so he will open the ears to people like me yet the libertarians rip him to pieces. Barr is not going to get elected, so if you think he is full of BS who cares, the "BS" that is coming out is his mouth is the principles you say you believe in. But by attackign him for his past and the fact you think he is a NeoCon spy you have shown that Libertarian is just an idea and not a real political movement. This is not going to get him in the national debates. Get over yourselves and actually support the movement (you say you belive in, maybe you all are McCain spys), then maybe peope like me who always have been libertarian, but did not know, can join and support your party. If we don't get a consolidated voice heard this election we are still going to be at step 1, at best, in 2010, more likely step -10.

If you believe in libertarian principles then you are a libertarian, disagreeing with other libs about Barr is hardly a reason to be repeled away from the party.

I agree with you though that people need to stop nitpicking at Barr, I think its just a minority of people doing that anyways. Lets face it though hes not nearly as trustworthy as Paul, there are a lot of Repubs and Dems (*cough Gravel, *cough) who exploit third parties so people are always on alert about that.

dirknb@hotmail.com
06-09-2008, 11:21 AM
Very interesting pov. Thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of Republicans are very libertarian, we just have to show them that. Are your neocon friends looking at 3rd parties, too? Any feedback on more we could be doing, different methods perhaps, in attracting them or at least getting them to have a look?

And btw, Bush is not an idiot. He is fully aware of what his administration has done. The dumb act is just that. It keeps Americans off guard thinking they are smarter than him. Check out OLD footage of W running for Governor. The man was slick and well spoken, polished in speech.

Bush is not a mastermind of anything, he just does what he's told.

pinkmandy
06-09-2008, 11:40 AM
Bush is not a mastermind of anything, he just does what he's told.

ITA. But he is aware. He isn't the fool, he's playing his part. The whole village idiot act is a ploy imo.

revolutionary8
06-09-2008, 11:45 AM
I agree with you though that people need to stop nitpicking at Barr, I think its just a minority of people doing that anyways. Lets face it though hes not nearly as trustworthy as Paul, there are a lot of Repubs and Dems (*cough Gravel, *cough) who exploit third parties so people are always on alert about that.
I have been labeled as a "nitpicker" for the first time in my entire life.

Here is the deal:

I will never stop "nitpicking" about votes for the Patriot Act, the War in Iraq, The War on Drugs, The Department of Homeland Security, ET ALL.

If that makes me a nitpicker, I will happily join the ranks of the pickiest of nitters. :D

If Bob Barr was the only man on the ballot, I would write in Donald Duck.
If a candidate runs on "Change", I run in the other direction.
That won't ever change for me. Not ever again. I vote by voting history rather than rhetoric.

When people begin saying "toe the line", "get behind our best chance to gain ground" etc, I pretty much want to puke. In fact, the reason I am loyal to Paul is in large part, due to the exact opposite. It is rather ironic that the Libertarians are now telling Republicans like myself, the same thing (toe the line) the GOP is telling us. Pretty frightening to say the least.

revolutionary8
06-09-2008, 12:09 PM
ITA. But he is aware. He isn't the fool, he's playing his part. The whole village idiot act is a ploy imo.

George Bush is absolutely no idiot. He is a Nazi.
Puppets like Michael Moore, Keith Olberman, Steven Colbert, et all, are in large part to blame for this, along with GBs own acting ability, but rest assured, GB is no dummy. Goebel's propaganda machine churns on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D6fxyOtVeI

If you read the comments on the youtube page- you will notice comments such as these:

Bush has failed at everything he has ever tried.

NOT TRUE. He has succeeded in most everything he set out to do. Michael Moore's film Farenheit 911 went on an on about all of the companies GB43 ran in to the ground, as evidence of failure. This is exactly what GB43 set out to do- destroy, destroy, destroy.

Ozwest
06-09-2008, 12:21 PM
I reckon a lot of X dem's have Libertarian leanings.

Booga Booga.

Andrew-Austin
06-09-2008, 12:30 PM
I have been labeled as a "nitpicker" for the first time in my entire life.

Here is the deal:

I will never stop "nitpicking" about votes for the Patriot Act, the War in Iraq, The War on Drugs, The Department of Homeland Security, ET ALL.
If that makes me a nitpicker, I will happily join the ranks of the pickiest of nitters. :D

If Bob Barr was the only man on the ballot, I would write in Donald Duck.
If a candidate runs on "Change", I run in the other direction.
That won't ever change for me. Not ever again. I vote by voting history rather than rhetoric.

When people begin saying "toe the line", "get behind our best chance to gain ground" etc, I pretty much want to puke. In fact, the reason I am loyal to Paul is in large part, due to the exact opposite. It is rather ironic that the Libertarians are now telling Republicans like myself, the same thing (toe the line) the GOP is telling us. Pretty frightening to say the least.

So it broils down to whether or not you think he is being geuine, which is why I mentioned the trust issue.

revolutionary8
06-09-2008, 12:36 PM
So it broils down to whether or not you think he is being geuine, which is why I mentioned the trust issue.

No, it really has nothing to do with trust per say. It has everything to do with evidence. There is evidence that Bob Barr is a neocon who supports the drug war, the patriot act, the war in Iraq, abortion, the corrupt to the core CIA, and other neocons.
I will vote based on the evidence. I don't really need to listen to a word they say in order to make an informed decision. Trust is not a factor, I think you are getting "trust" mixed up with "faith". I have no trust or faith in Bob Barr, I trust AND have faith in Ron Paul, based upon the evidence.

Ozwest
06-09-2008, 12:52 PM
Will McCain or Obama repeal the Patriot Act, wiretapping, the destruction of Habeas Corpus.

I won't hold my breath.

"The only stable state is one in which all men are equal before the law"

Aristotle -

Did I forget Guantanamo?

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
06-09-2008, 04:24 PM
Now you have a guy (Bob Barr) who will continue to spread the message and is a little more moderate so he will open the ears to people like me yet the libertarians rip him to pieces. Barr is not going to get elected, so if you think he is full of BS who cares, the "BS" that is coming out is his mouth is the principles you say you believe in. But by attackign him for his past and the fact you think he is a NeoCon spy you have shown that Libertarian is just an idea and not a real political movement.

Here's how it works where I'm from, friend. I will judge you on your past. If you have a history of being unethical, I will expect that from you in the future and treat you accordingly.

You also don't have to worry about me pretending to like you for my own selfish purposes. Not only does it bother me from an ethical standpoint, but those things have a way of backfiring anyway.

So, no, I won't embrace Barr. I definitely won't support Barr, and I'd rather not even have to tolerate Barr.



No, it really has nothing to do with trust per say. It has everything to do with evidence. There is evidence that Bob Barr is a neocon who supports the drug war, the patriot act, the war in Iraq, abortion, the corrupt to the core CIA, and other neocons.
I will vote based on the evidence. I don't really need to listen to a word they say in order to make an informed decision. Trust is not a factor, I think you are getting "trust" mixed up with "faith". I have no trust or faith in Bob Barr, I trust AND have faith in Ron Paul, based upon the evidence.

Yeah, that's it. When he has a different record, I'll be happy to reconcile that with his current record.

Barr's been a neocon for 30 years if you count his CIA job and his job as Anti-Drug Coordinator for the Department of Justice. Barr wasn't just a little bit of a drug warrior. He was a MAJOR drug warrior. The "Barr Amendment" to the 1999 Omnibus spending bill not only blocked implementation of Initiative 59 (a medical marijuana initive in D.C.) but prohibited the vote tally from even being released. So, he felt so strongly, he didn't want other citizens or anyone else to even know what the citizenry thought. He was still fighting for that as late as 2002, and his ammendment successfully stopped yet another ballot initive.

In 2007, he joined the Marijuana Policy Project. (a pro marijuana org.)

Now, let's weigh everything we know about Barr. So, since 2007, he has done what for the cause of liberty?

pahs1994
06-09-2008, 10:48 PM
I was going to join the LP also, but i most likeley won't. I don't like stepping into other peoples shit. They are all fighting because Barr isn't Libertarian enough even though it is the year they can totally steal a big peice of the pie.. I guess the hardcore Libs are content getting 1% all of the time.. That is fine and all to stand by your principals. But I would personally bend my principals alittle bit to spread my message of liberty and freedom to as many people as possible. But i guess people like Ruwart and other BIG L's don't really care about furthering the cause

LibertiORDeth
06-09-2008, 10:52 PM
Bush is not a mastermind of anything, he just does what he's told.

+1776
I think Bush is stupid, but them Bauers are pretty dang smart.

josephadel_3
06-09-2008, 10:53 PM
Your post was so confusing. I still don't know why you didn't become a Libertarian. The most I got is you didn't want to be a 40 year old loser living with your parents.

LibertiORDeth
06-09-2008, 10:56 PM
Your post was so confusing. I still don't know why you didn't become a Libertarian. The most I got is you didn't want to be a 40 year old loser living with your parents.

That's why :p

josephadel_3
06-09-2008, 10:58 PM
That's why :p

He didn't want to be a 40 year old loser?