thank you Glynn county police officers for ruining my dinner

[rmodel65]

Well it has happened again, Glynn county is the place to be if you want to be harassed for carrying a firearm. But this time there was no MWAG call, the county police (mainly the rent-a-cop off duty officer) took it upon themselves to harass me tonight while dinning in Denny''s. I handed him my GFL they then asked me to put my firearm in my vehicle. I refused so they made it a point to make sure, that I did indeed restate refusal to put away my weapon, I again confirmed the belief that the officers held and I asked to speak to a supervisor. So I wait and wait and wait some more. Finally the same supervisor shows up from my first encounter with the GCPD. Again he tells me they have a right to stop me, I again tell him he is wrong and informed him that I had already showed my GFL and this situation should have been over an hour earlier. Then he goes on to say that it might be a public gathering and its open to interpretation. when are these people gonna learn. Monday I''m calling the DA and the Chief of police. See if we can get this straightened out once and for all. The officer that initiated the entire incident goes inside and speaks to the MGR and comes back out and says the manager would like to not come back armed. My father then goes inside and talks to the manager, he actually stated that He has no problems as long as it doesn''t create a disturbance, and that I am legally Licensed. He also agreed it was the Police causing the problem, he then offers me a Denny''s customer complaint form and it states that I was harassed by officers 1,2 and 3.

Thanks goes out to the MGMT of Denny''s of Brunswick for honoring my rights.

[sidster]

Gfl?

[sidster]

Gfl?

WTF!? I typed the letters G F L (all capital) and after posting they
became G-capital f and l lowercase.

I bet "W T F" will be the same...

Edit, I guess it didn't affect WTF

[Kludge]

I'm assuming he's speaking of his Gagsta' For Life membership card.


WTF!? I typed the letters G F L (all capital) and after posting they
became G-capital f and l lowercase.

I bet "W T F" will be the same...

Edit, I guess it didn't affect WTF

Prevents all-caps spammers.

[ronpaulblogsdotcom]

Wow so the property owner or manager never asked for you to leave or go disarmed? Sounds like they cops are going past their bounds.

[rmodel65]

GFL is georgia firearms license it only applies to firearms no knives etc

yeah the mgmt didnt have a problem neither did any customer

[sratiug]

Good for you. Next time, bring a few friends with you and a gun for the manager, disarm the cops and make a citizens arrest.

[nobody's_hero]

Good play. I do believe if I ever take a trip to Brunswick, I might be eating at Denny's.

[Anthony T]

Good for you. Next time, bring a few friends with you and a gun for the manager, disarm the cops and make a citizens arrest.
Yeah right.....

[pcosmar]

Good for you. Next time, bring a few friends with you and a gun for the manager, disarm the cops and make a citizens arrest.

+100
It is about time some of these were put in their place. ( face in the dirt)
That is how it is supposed to work. Armed citizens keeping the Govt. under control.

[rmodel65]

Good play. I do believe if I ever take a trip to Brunswick, I might be eating at Denny's.

just dont venture into the bowling alley adjacent it can be viewed as a public gathering since they have league play

[rmodel65]

well the one lady officer backed down after i explained some caselaw and then the other uniformed did also. but the rent-a-cop county employee providing security for the bowling alley didnt

[BillyDkid]

Good for you, sadly, I am too terrified of the police to even consider standing up to them. As a teen, growing up in my little town, the main occupation of the local police and even the local state trooper was to harrass and torment we "long hairs" and I have come to see the police as nothing other than people to be very afraid of. Not to say there are not some very fine people who are police officers. State laws are so wacked about open carry or conceal and carry. I'm moving to Ohio next year and the law is you need a permit to conceal and carry, but not to carry openly. In other states, carrying openly is an issue, concealing is not. Of course, here in NY I had to jump through hoops to get my pistol permit and it took many weeks - some judge can just arbitrarily decide to deny you. Plus you have to be fingerprinted and so on. Just buying a 22 rifle for my son was no simple matter - they have to give a bunch of code words to the ATF on the phone and check all of your details and you walk out feeling like did something wrong - total bullshit. I'm a white guy, middle class guy and I feel afraid of the police. Can you imagine how you would feel as black person being pulled over by the cops in this country? I am assuming you are white, suppose you were in that restaurant with your gun and you were a black man exercising your Constitutional rights?

[UnReconstructed]

Good for you. Next time, bring a few friends with you and a gun for the manager, disarm the cops and make a citizens arrest.


+ a gazillion

I'd go with ya... and take Sam Colt with me.


That is how it is supposed to work. Armed citizens keeping the Govt. under control.

QFT

[nobody's_hero]

just dont venture into the bowling alley adjacent it can be viewed as a public gathering since they have league play

I appreciate the warning, and I think our state's "public gatherings" clause is a load of crap. Too inclusive of what can be banned by the government and too restrictive on what is allowed to the people. Story of our times, I suppose.

[rmodel65]

georgiacarry.org is gonna work on that next session


ive been contacted by the president also concerning the incident

heres is the complaint form signed by the mgmt of denny about the officers

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f4/rmodel65/Dennys.jpg

[rmodel65]

letter from a gun rights group in georgia that i belong to:




As the Pres, Vice, Pres, Board member, whoever, of GeorgiaCarry.org, I am writing to inform you that some of your officers may be taking the idea behind the Gun Bounty Program too far, resulting in the repeated harassment of law abiding individuals who possess a firearm. I am writing on behalf of Stephen P. B., a GeorgiaCarry.Org member and Brunswick resident who has twice been detained by Glynn County police officers in the complete absence of any probable cause or reasonable suspicion to believe that Mr. Belt was involved in any illegal activity whatsoever. The purpose of this letter is to request that your officers cease harassing Mr. B. and any other law abiding Georgians who are carrying a firearm but not suspected of any illegal conduct.

DENNYS

The most recent incident occurred on Sunday evening at the Denny's restaurant at Exit 38 off Interstate 95. Officer K. Mason (#191), while off duty, approached Mr. B. while he was dining with his father and mother., who were visiting from out of town. Officer Mason interrupted the meal to ask Mr. Belt for his firearms license. Even though he had no obligation to do so, Mr. B. showed Officer Mason the firearms license in the hope that it would defuse Officer Mason and permit him to continue dining with his relatives in peace.

Officer Mason did not intend to let that happen. He demanded that Mr. B. exit the restaurant and put his firearm in his car. Mr. B. refused. No representative of the restaurant asked Mr. B. to leave the restaurant at anytime.

Two additional police officers arrived, presumably as "backup," Officer Echols (female) and Officer Joshua Williams. With all three officers present, Mr. B. was again told to take his firearm out to his car. He refused again and requested that they leave him alone. He informed the three officers that they had no right to detain him, which the officers denied. He also informed the officers that they had no right to ask him to leave, as only the person in control of Denny's had that right (and, as we shall see, the manager of Denny's did not wish to ask him to leave). The officers actually went so far as to make the outrageous claim that it was illegal for Mr. B. to carry into Denny's. They made the specific claim that Denny's serves alcohol, which is an assertion that is relevant until July 1, but demonstrably untrue. The establishment does not serve alcohol.

Since this was the second time Mr. B. had been harassed by your police officers with no probable cause or reasonable suspicion whatsoever, he requested that they bring a supervisor to the scene. As a result, Officer Ellis arrived, which just happened to be the same supervisor from his previous incident. Everybody met in the parking lot, and Officer Ellis compounded the confusion by attempting to claim that Denny's was a "public gathering" (see O.C.G.A. 16-11-127) by virtue of the people present in the entrance to Denny's, talking.

Mr. B. was well aware of the Georgia Court of Appeals opinion, State v. Burns, 200 Ga. App. 16 (1991), in which the arrest of a person with a firearms license for carrying a deadly weapon to a public gathering was not upheld. The Court declared that carrying a pistol in McDonalds was not carrying to a public gathering, even if people did gather around the person carrying. If there is any difference between McDonalds and Denny's, we cannot discern it.

Officer Ellis maintained that he has the right to stop, detain, identify, and question Mr. B. in the absence of any suspicion of a crime, simply because Mr. B. is in possession of a firearm. This was not true at the first encounter, and it certainly was not true at the second.

Officer Mason, the officer who started this incident, was not content to let things drop at that point, and instead went inside to see if he could pressure the manager into issuing a criminal trespass warning against Mr. B. Officer Mason emerged triumphant a little later, declaring that the manager had asked Mr. B. not to carry a firearm inside.

Mr. B.'s father, who was not armed, went in to speak with the manager on duty, who did not back up Officer Mason's declaration at all. Rather, the manager (Noel) said that he did not appreciate the disturbance, and that he had no problem with Mr. B. or his firearm until the three police officers entered and created the disturbance. I have attached the Guest Assurance and Employee Response Incident Report that the manager signed attesting to the officer's rude behavior.

Chief Doering, please inform your officers that Denny's is not a "public gathering." Please ask that they quit threatening law abiding Georgians with false arrest. Please ask that they do not go out of their way to pressure local business owners and managers when the officers run out of other legal options.

BOOKS A MILLION

The earlier incident occurred outside Books a Million on May 17, 2008 with Officers Jump and Varnadoe, who stated that they were responding to a call from a customer (not a call from the store). Mr. B. presented his firearms license. These officers demanded that Mr. B. disarm and demanded that he open the trunk of his car. When Mr. B. plainly told both officers that he did not consent to a search, Officer Jump responded that Mr. B. "had better" do what he says.

Afraid of what the officer might do following this not-so-veiled threat, Mr. B. opened his trunk. The officers ordered him to put his gun in his trunk, and he did. One of the officers then ordered him to step over to where they were standing. The officers then proceeded to give Mr. B. a lengthy lecture on their understanding of Georgia law. They claimed it was illegal to carry a firearm outside of his "yard" or "place of business." The officers informed Mr. B. that he could not carry his firearm "in public" because that was a violation of the public gathering law.

Mr. B. steadfastly but politely insisted that shopping at Books a Million is not carrying a deadly weapon to a public gathering, and, after about 40 minutes, they released him. Prior to releasing Mr. B., the officers demanded his driver's license and wrote down his identifying information.

Officer Varnadoe volunteered his opinion that Mr. Belt did not "need" a gun, "because that is what you pay the police for."

Mr. B. drive to the Glynn County Police Department to ask for a supervisor above Officer Jump's level, and spoke with Officer Ellis for the first time. Officer Ellis told Mr. B. he "had better listen to their comands about disarming," hinting that Mr. B. would suffer consequences if he did not. He also told Mr. B. he "had better show ID to any officer asking for it."

When Mr. B. protested that the law did not permit officers to detain people with no suspicion of a crime, Officer Ellis told Mr. B. that the police department would have to wait until HB89 became effective to be able to know the law fully. Mr. Belt's plea that HB 89 was completely irrelevant to his unlawful seizure fell upon deaf ears.

GEORGIACARRY.ORG's REQUEST

Mr. B. is a member of GeorgiaCarry.Org, which vigorously defends the right to bear arms in Georgia. As I am sure you are already aware, a police officer may not detain a person absent probable cause or reasonable suspicion that the person is committing or is about to commit a crime. GeorgiaCarry.Org is concerned about your officers making threats to unlawfully detain anybody with a firearm absent reasonable suspicion of a crime. GeorgiaCarry.Org asks that you respond in writing with your intentions regarding the training of your police force with respect to search and seizure. For a firearm in a car, please see the recent case of State v. Jones, 289 Ga. App. 176 (2008), which declares that a police officer at a traffic stop does not have carte blanche authority to secure all weapons at a traffic stop.

For the issue of whether a firearm, by itself, justifies detaining a person, there are many federal cases addressing the issue. United States v. Ubiles, 224 F.3d 213 (3d Cir. 2000) declares that possession of a firearm in public, with no other circumstances present, does not justify a stop. "For all the officers knew, even assuming the reliability of the tip that Ubiles possessed a gun, Ubiles was . . . lawfully exercising his right . . . to possess a gun in public." See also United States v. Dudley, 854 F. Supp. 570 (S.D.Ind. 1994), in which the court declared that a report of persons with guns did not justify an investigative stop. "In short, the Government failed to establish . . . that some reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, based on articulable facts, justified this seizure. And, if the stop itself is unlawful, neither Terry nor Michigan v. Long authorize the police to search the suspects or the suspect's vehicle for weapons, even if the officers reasonably fear for their safety."

Likewise, the U.S. Supreme Court in Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), declared that there is no "gun exception" to the Fourth Amendment.

GeorgiaCarry.Org asks that your officers stop harassing law abiding Georgians with unlawful detention. Absent reasonable suspicion of a crime, the person stopped is under no obligation to cooperate with an unlawful detention. Since so many of your officers are being trained to detain all persons in possession of a firearm, even in the absence of any suspicion of illegality, then the results of this policy could be disastrous.

Please put a stop to this conduct at once. We look forward to hearing from you regarding how you intend to address the conduct of your officers and department supervisors in Glynn County.

[newyearsrevolution08]

letter from a gun rights group in georgia that i belong to:




As the Pres, Vice, Pres, Board member, whoever, of GeorgiaCarry.org, I am writing to inform you that some of your officers may be taking the idea behind the Gun Bounty Program too far, resulting in the repeated harassment of law abiding individuals who possess a firearm. I am writing on behalf of Stephen P. B., a GeorgiaCarry.Org member and Brunswick resident who has twice been detained by Glynn County police officers in the complete absence of any probable cause or reasonable suspicion to believe that Mr. Belt was involved in any illegal activity whatsoever. The purpose of this letter is to request that your officers cease harassing Mr. B. and any other law abiding Georgians who are carrying a firearm but not suspected of any illegal conduct.

DENNYS

The most recent incident occurred on Sunday evening at the Denny's restaurant at Exit 38 off Interstate 95. Officer K. Mason (#191), while off duty, approached Mr. B. while he was dining with his father and mother., who were visiting from out of town. Officer Mason interrupted the meal to ask Mr. Belt for his firearms license. Even though he had no obligation to do so, Mr. B. showed Officer Mason the firearms license in the hope that it would defuse Officer Mason and permit him to continue dining with his relatives in peace.

Officer Mason did not intend to let that happen. He demanded that Mr. B. exit the restaurant and put his firearm in his car. Mr. B. refused. No representative of the restaurant asked Mr. B. to leave the restaurant at anytime.

Two additional police officers arrived, presumably as "backup," Officer Echols (female) and Officer Joshua Williams. With all three officers present, Mr. B. was again told to take his firearm out to his car. He refused again and requested that they leave him alone. He informed the three officers that they had no right to detain him, which the officers denied. He also informed the officers that they had no right to ask him to leave, as only the person in control of Denny's had that right (and, as we shall see, the manager of Denny's did not wish to ask him to leave). The officers actually went so far as to make the outrageous claim that it was illegal for Mr. B. to carry into Denny's. They made the specific claim that Denny's serves alcohol, which is an assertion that is relevant until July 1, but demonstrably untrue. The establishment does not serve alcohol.

Since this was the second time Mr. B. had been harassed by your police officers with no probable cause or reasonable suspicion whatsoever, he requested that they bring a supervisor to the scene. As a result, Officer Ellis arrived, which just happened to be the same supervisor from his previous incident. Everybody met in the parking lot, and Officer Ellis compounded the confusion by attempting to claim that Denny's was a "public gathering" (see O.C.G.A. 16-11-127) by virtue of the people present in the entrance to Denny's, talking.

Mr. B. was well aware of the Georgia Court of Appeals opinion, State v. Burns, 200 Ga. App. 16 (1991), in which the arrest of a person with a firearms license for carrying a deadly weapon to a public gathering was not upheld. The Court declared that carrying a pistol in McDonalds was not carrying to a public gathering, even if people did gather around the person carrying. If there is any difference between McDonalds and Denny's, we cannot discern it.

Officer Ellis maintained that he has the right to stop, detain, identify, and question Mr. B. in the absence of any suspicion of a crime, simply because Mr. B. is in possession of a firearm. This was not true at the first encounter, and it certainly was not true at the second.

Officer Mason, the officer who started this incident, was not content to let things drop at that point, and instead went inside to see if he could pressure the manager into issuing a criminal trespass warning against Mr. B. Officer Mason emerged triumphant a little later, declaring that the manager had asked Mr. B. not to carry a firearm inside.

Mr. B.'s father, who was not armed, went in to speak with the manager on duty, who did not back up Officer Mason's declaration at all. Rather, the manager (Noel) said that he did not appreciate the disturbance, and that he had no problem with Mr. B. or his firearm until the three police officers entered and created the disturbance. I have attached the Guest Assurance and Employee Response Incident Report that the manager signed attesting to the officer's rude behavior.

Chief Doering, please inform your officers that Denny's is not a "public gathering." Please ask that they quit threatening law abiding Georgians with false arrest. Please ask that they do not go out of their way to pressure local business owners and managers when the officers run out of other legal options.

BOOKS A MILLION

The earlier incident occurred outside Books a Million on May 17, 2008 with Officers Jump and Varnadoe, who stated that they were responding to a call from a customer (not a call from the store). Mr. B. presented his firearms license. These officers demanded that Mr. B. disarm and demanded that he open the trunk of his car. When Mr. B. plainly told both officers that he did not consent to a search, Officer Jump responded that Mr. B. "had better" do what he says.

Afraid of what the officer might do following this not-so-veiled threat, Mr. B. opened his trunk. The officers ordered him to put his gun in his trunk, and he did. One of the officers then ordered him to step over to where they were standing. The officers then proceeded to give Mr. B. a lengthy lecture on their understanding of Georgia law. They claimed it was illegal to carry a firearm outside of his "yard" or "place of business." The officers informed Mr. B. that he could not carry his firearm "in public" because that was a violation of the public gathering law.

Mr. B. steadfastly but politely insisted that shopping at Books a Million is not carrying a deadly weapon to a public gathering, and, after about 40 minutes, they released him. Prior to releasing Mr. B., the officers demanded his driver's license and wrote down his identifying information.

Officer Varnadoe volunteered his opinion that Mr. Belt did not "need" a gun, "because that is what you pay the police for."

Mr. B. drive to the Glynn County Police Department to ask for a supervisor above Officer Jump's level, and spoke with Officer Ellis for the first time. Officer Ellis told Mr. B. he "had better listen to their comands about disarming," hinting that Mr. B. would suffer consequences if he did not. He also told Mr. B. he "had better show ID to any officer asking for it."

When Mr. B. protested that the law did not permit officers to detain people with no suspicion of a crime, Officer Ellis told Mr. B. that the police department would have to wait until HB89 became effective to be able to know the law fully. Mr. Belt's plea that HB 89 was completely irrelevant to his unlawful seizure fell upon deaf ears.

GEORGIACARRY.ORG's REQUEST

Mr. B. is a member of GeorgiaCarry.Org, which vigorously defends the right to bear arms in Georgia. As I am sure you are already aware, a police officer may not detain a person absent probable cause or reasonable suspicion that the person is committing or is about to commit a crime. GeorgiaCarry.Org is concerned about your officers making threats to unlawfully detain anybody with a firearm absent reasonable suspicion of a crime. GeorgiaCarry.Org asks that you respond in writing with your intentions regarding the training of your police force with respect to search and seizure. For a firearm in a car, please see the recent case of State v. Jones, 289 Ga. App. 176 (2008), which declares that a police officer at a traffic stop does not have carte blanche authority to secure all weapons at a traffic stop.

For the issue of whether a firearm, by itself, justifies detaining a person, there are many federal cases addressing the issue. United States v. Ubiles, 224 F.3d 213 (3d Cir. 2000) declares that possession of a firearm in public, with no other circumstances present, does not justify a stop. "For all the officers knew, even assuming the reliability of the tip that Ubiles possessed a gun, Ubiles was . . . lawfully exercising his right . . . to possess a gun in public." See also United States v. Dudley, 854 F. Supp. 570 (S.D.Ind. 1994), in which the court declared that a report of persons with guns did not justify an investigative stop. "In short, the Government failed to establish . . . that some reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, based on articulable facts, justified this seizure. And, if the stop itself is unlawful, neither Terry nor Michigan v. Long authorize the police to search the suspects or the suspect's vehicle for weapons, even if the officers reasonably fear for their safety."

Likewise, the U.S. Supreme Court in Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), declared that there is no "gun exception" to the Fourth Amendment.

GeorgiaCarry.Org asks that your officers stop harassing law abiding Georgians with unlawful detention. Absent reasonable suspicion of a crime, the person stopped is under no obligation to cooperate with an unlawful detention. Since so many of your officers are being trained to detain all persons in possession of a firearm, even in the absence of any suspicion of illegality, then the results of this policy could be disastrous.

Please put a stop to this conduct at once. We look forward to hearing from you regarding how you intend to address the conduct of your officers and department supervisors in Glynn County.


Please let us know how that all goes as well. I love it when people actually STAND UP for their rights locally. Has there been any state that has lost their right to open carry and then brought it back? Just wanting to look into what battles they went through to get it to happen IF that has ever happened before.

Maybe here in California we can work towards open carry and make it actually normal to see again. They put such a fear into us when a gun weapon is seen since we were young and we really need that to change.

Get some of the soccer moms interested in the "sport" behind shooting and maybe we can get them all hooked and them WANT their kids to own rifles and so on.

As many people open carry in states that allow it, I think the better and I see you guys in are holding it down for your area. Tell others to do the same and pretty soon it just might reduce crime enough in your area that they do a piece on it in the paper or local news.

Nothing like showing what living under the constitution is like then allowing locals to SEE that ,law abiding citizens + weapons = a good thing. I bet your crime rate would drop dramatically if enough people decide to jump on the open carry bandwagon.

I'm jealous and excited to see our country go BACK towards the way she should be going and I do think it happens at the local level like you are doing.

[rmodel65]

contacted by the police chief today, they will continue to stop any and all carrying a firearm legally. they will disregard all case law on the matter. the Glynn county police dept will not protect your forth amendment rights:mad:

[newyearsrevolution08]

contacted by the police chief today, they will continue to stop any and all carrying a firearm legally. they will disregard all case law on the matter. the Glynn county police dept will not protect your forth amendment rights:mad:

So now it is a, how long do you want to put up with the "hassling" to continue enjoying your rights to carry. It would be great if more would join in the open carry effort with you though.

I was looking and saw that I can oc in some areas around me as well so I will be testing that out soon enough. I would love to see more and more carry 100% legally, I know I would feel safer.

[pcosmar]

I just spent a little time at,
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum18/
I see you posted there too. I read a couple other stories. Everybody hates the "public gathering clause" and it seems to be used as a club by some jurisdictions.
I would suggest contacting the State Attorney General for a definitive ruling.

BTW, 'brandishing" was used in Michigan the same way till a definitive ruling was made.
It was ruled that a gun in a holster was NOT brandishing.

[rmodel65]

So now it is a, how long do you want to put up with the "hassling" to continue enjoying your rights to carry. It would be great if more would join in the open carry effort with you though.

I was looking and saw that I can oc in some areas around me as well so I will be testing that out soon enough. I would love to see more and more carry 100% legally, I know I would feel safer.

i suggest a dvr i just got one http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/Search.do?c=1&searchType=user&keyword=+ICD-P620&searchSection=All&go.x=0&go.y=0


i will carry i will not give up

[rmodel65]

we dont have a brandishing law to my knowledge