PDA

View Full Version : Should the legal adult age be changed?




LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 05:22 PM
I got the idea for this thread from the one about Ralph Nader wanting to change the voting age to 16. I think it should be taken a step further, and give 16 year olds the same rights and privileges as 18 year olds.
I, at 16, just got my first job at a grocery store, and as I was given a tour of the store, the amount of jobs and tasks I could not perform because of age was larger then the list of what I COULD do, which to me is outrageous. My dad said that I can't even join the union since I can't sign a contract.
As far as politics goes, I am more capable of voting then 90% of 18 year olds. Most of them don't even know who is running for President! I, in contrast, have most of my opinions and beliefs fully developed, and am completely capable of voting, signing a contract, operating machinery, and purchasing cigarettes (though I wouldn't even if I could :p)

yongrel
06-07-2008, 05:22 PM
I don't care about how super spiffy you are. What about your classmates?


That's what I thought.

Kludge
06-07-2008, 05:29 PM
A coercive representative government is incompatible with civil liberties.

So long as societal participation is mandatory to live, these problems will go unsolved, because every answer is the wrong answer.

You have a right to yourself, and can only have people represent you - individually.

Ogren
06-07-2008, 05:33 PM
I don't care about how super spiffy you are. What about your classmates?


That's what I thought.

Ageism! As I recall it was the older voters that put Bush in the white house, twice!

yongrel
06-07-2008, 05:38 PM
Ageism! As I recall it was the older voters that put Bush in the white house, twice!

Yes, but stupidity is different from a biophysical inability to reason fully.

Numerous studies have been done to demonstrate that the adolescent brain is not fully formed in many areas. For instance, the portion of the brain in control of judgment does not mature fully until 25.

I think that 18 is a fine age for adulthood to legally begin for the moment, since it coincides nicely with the departure of young adults from the home.

In future, it would perhaps make more sense to adjust the age of adulthood to better reflect our knowledge of the growth and maturation of the brain.

surf
06-07-2008, 05:43 PM
and here i thought this was going to be a "drinking" thread.... :)

just got a campaign letter from a libertarian in Tacoma that is campaigning on, among other things, lowering the drinking age to 15.

I'm wrestling with the concept of not being able to be charged as an adult in the case of a criminal act, and also being able to potentially legislate punishment that someone under the age of 18 would not be required to fill.

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 05:44 PM
and here i thought this was going to be a "drinking" thread.... :)

just got a campaign letter from a libertarian in Tacoma that is campaigning on, among other things, lowering the drinking age to 15.

I'm wrestling with the concept of not being able to be charged as an adult in the case of a criminal act, and also being able to potentially legislate punishment that someone under the age of 18 would not be required to fill.

Why not? If they can commit the crime, they can pay.

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 05:44 PM
I think that 18 is a fine age for adulthood to legally begin for the moment, since it coincides nicely with the departure of young adults from the home.

I would leave home if I could, and I doubt I am the only one.

LibertyCzar
06-07-2008, 05:50 PM
and here i thought this was going to be a "drinking" thread.... :)

just got a campaign letter from a libertarian in Tacoma that is campaigning on, among other things, lowering the drinking age to 15.

I'm wrestling with the concept of not being able to be charged as an adult in the case of a criminal act, and also being able to potentially legislate punishment that someone under the age of 18 would not be required to fill.

Drinking age is lower in Europe. They're doing just fine. In Germany, the saying goes, if you're old enough to get to the bar, you're old enough to drink. Yet Germany doesn't seem to be collapsing because teenagers are drinking. In fact, what is the drunk driving rate in European countries? Not as high as here. Why? Because drinking is not a big deal.

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 05:53 PM
Drinking age is lower in Europe. They're doing just fine. In Germany, the saying goes, if you're old enough to get to the bar, you're old enough to drink. Yet Germany doesn't seem to be collapsing because teenagers are drinking. In fact, what is the drunk driving rate in European countries? Not as high as here. Why? Because drinking is not a big deal.

Interesting thought, although I believe there are more important issues regarding this idea to fight for.

yongrel
06-07-2008, 05:53 PM
Drinking age is lower in Europe. They're doing just fine. In Germany, the saying goes, if you're old enough to get to the bar, you're old enough to drink. Yet Germany doesn't seem to be collapsing because teenagers are drinking. In fact, what is the drunk driving rate in European countries? Not as high as here. Why? Because drinking is not a big deal.

Actually, that's not true. The rates of alcoholism is markedly higher among European teens that it is among American teens, according to a CQ researcher article I came across recently.

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 06:02 PM
Actually, that's not true. The rates of alcoholism is markedly higher among European teens that it is among American teens, according to a CQ researcher article I came across recently.

I don't think "alcoholism" means "drunk driving", does it?

surf
06-07-2008, 06:02 PM
guys, i'm for ending all prohibitions and getting the gov'ts - both local and federal - out of the loop entirely.

i'm just saying, if you lower the voting age, you must also lower the age at which all criminals and suspects are treated as adults. i don't think that's a bad thing. believe me, i learned about freedom and free markets when i was your age - and i've bitched and moaned about all the dumbasses elected in every election since then. but i don't think lowering the voting age will effect this very much. and, yes, there are a lot of dumbasses in your generation as there are in all.

regarding your job - it may be Union that keeps you from doing those things - but it's probably some dumbass federal regulation. sorry about that.

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 06:04 PM
guys, i'm for ending all prohibitions and getting the gov'ts - both local and federal - out of the loop entirely.

i'm just saying, if you lower the voting age, you must also lower the age at which all criminals and suspects are treated as adults. i don't think that's a bad thing. believe me, i learned about freedom and free markets when i was your age - and i've bitched and moaned about all the dumbasses elected in every election since then. but i don't think lowering the voting age will effect this very much. and, yes, there are a lot of dumbasses in your generation as there are in all.

regarding your job - it may be Union that keeps you from doing those things - but it's probably some dumbass federal regulation. sorry about that.

Like I said, I am not even IN the Union, so it is apparently federal regulations. I am a good, hard worker, and I can't even legally get promoted...
Also, I didn't say that lowering the voting age would affect anything, but I my rights are being infringed atm.

pinkmandy
06-07-2008, 06:08 PM
I would not object to legally declaring 16 year olds as adults. With that comes an end to the free ride of public schooling as well (which is why it will never happen- the teacher unions would fight like mad over the possibility of losing 2 years of funding). I'd like to see 15 year olds as opposed to 17 year olds being in a position where they are actually getting ready to take on the world and making plans. At 16 they can drive, they can work- why not start getting serious about their futures? 2 years of a trade school or community college would be infinitely better than another 2 years of high school.

I think that we, as a society, keep kids from growing up. Maybe it isn't because they can't, maybe it's because we don't let them.

Kludge
06-07-2008, 06:11 PM
I would not object to legally declaring 16 year olds as adults. With that comes an end to the free ride of public schooling as well (which is why it will never happen- the teacher unions would fight like mad over the possibility of losing 2 years of funding). I'd like to see 15 year olds as opposed to 17 year olds being in a position where they are actually getting ready to take on the world and making plans. At 16 they can drive, they can work- why not start getting serious about their futures? 2 years of a trade school or community college would be infinitely better than another 2 years of high school.

I think that we, as a society, keep kids from growing up. Maybe it isn't because they can't, maybe it's because we don't let them.

+1

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 06:13 PM
2 years of a trade school or community college would be infinitely better than another 2 years of high school.




Which is why I started this quarter.

forsmant
06-07-2008, 06:23 PM
19 is the magic age. Young people are naive.

jcarcinogen
06-07-2008, 06:23 PM
Louisiana had 18 as it's legal age and voted to keep it that way then the Federal government cut funding on Interstates and other road/bridge projects (levees?) until they caved in and made it 21 around '95 i think..

EDIT: from 1996 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07EEDE1439F930A15750C0A9609582 60

qh4dotcom
06-07-2008, 06:26 PM
The one-size-fits-all age of 18 is ridiculous...everyone is different...there are people that are very mature and capable of making adult decisions when they are 17 or younger...and there are people who are very immature and should still be treated like children at the age of 18 or older....should be a matter of how mature someone is and not their age.

Kludge
06-07-2008, 06:28 PM
The one-size-fits-all age of 18 is ridiculous...everyone is different...there are people that are very mature and capable of making adult decisions when they are 17 or younger...and there are people who are very immature and should still be treated like children at the age of 18 or older....should be a matter of how mature someone is and not their age.

The State cannot be allowed to determine that.... Nor anyone else.

Civil liberties are not achievable in a society where full participation and unionship is mandatory to live.

forsmant
06-07-2008, 06:32 PM
The one-size-fits-all age of 18 is ridiculous...everyone is different...there are people that are very mature and capable of making adult decisions when they are 17 or younger...and there are people who are very immature and should still be treated like children at the age of 18 or older....should be a matter of how mature someone is and not their age.

I know some 35 year olds that are just as immature as 16 year olds. The point is that teenagers should be allowed to contract fully at the age of 19. Even then most receive help from older people with more...history. A 16 year old has maybe one year of history to prove his maturity while a 19 year old or 21 year old has 4-6 years of reliable history to prove maturity and responsibility. That is why there are arbitrary restrictions on age.

This is the moderately responsible reply of a 25 year with two children.

jcarcinogen
06-07-2008, 06:33 PM
The State cannot be allowed to determine that.... Nor anyone else.

Civil liberties are not achievable in a society where full participation and unionship is mandatory to live.

Thats why this local 'RP republican' ideal (though noble) won't work into today's world. just ask California and the DEA on the raids regarding medicinal marijuana. Ask Louisiana and the ATF/ABC about its drinking age, ask yourself who made the laws your local cop enforces.

Kludge
06-07-2008, 06:37 PM
Thats why this local 'RP republican' ideal (though noble) won't work into today's world. just ask California and the DEA on the raids regarding medicinal marijuana. Ask Louisiana and the ATF/ABC about its drinking age, ask yourself who made the laws your local cop enforces.

The political system allows for a representative revolution. We need majorities in the smaller offices so we can overthrow those in bigger offices.

We need to revolt.

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 06:42 PM
The political system allows for a representative revolution. We need majorities in the smaller offices so we can overthrow those in bigger offices.

We need to revolt.

Since when did America want that?

Kludge
06-07-2008, 06:45 PM
Since when did America want that?

Since over 200 years ago, as it is allowed by the form of government our founders left us with.

states have lost their right to secede from The State, so we must counter by filling our state's offices with secessionists.

jcarcinogen
06-07-2008, 06:46 PM
The political system allows for a representative revolution. We need majorities in the smaller offices so we can overthrow those in bigger offices.

We need to revolt.

According to the Constitution, I guess the states have militias... or National Guard... wait they are Federalized. 1 out of every 100 Americans are in jail (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/28cnd-prison.html?hp) so I guess individuals may be afraid to take initiative... I guess local government is the answer?

When your town doesn't get Federal funding because you don't do what DC says you get voted out or people move to the greener pasture.

The fruit that you buy at you local market place may look fresh and delicious, but it is it was picked from a giant tree that is poisonous, don't buy the fruit.

10th Ammendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)

Kludge
06-07-2008, 06:51 PM
According to the Constitution, I guess the states have militias... or National Guard... wait they are Federalized. 1 out of every 100 Americans are in jail (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/28cnd-prison.html?hp) so I guess individuals may be afraid to take initiative... I guess local government is the answer?

When your town doesn't get Federal funding because you don't do what DC says you get voted out or people move to the greener pasture.

The fruit that you buy at you local market place may look fresh and delicious, but it is it was picked from a giant tree that is poisonous, don't buy the fruit.

10th Ammendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)


Fuck D.C.

Isn't libertarianism all about what Man can do - Individuals?

We can do well enough on our own, as a state. New Hampshire, anyone?

The State would never dare touch us. They wouldn't be able to spin invading and killing their own people on such a massive scale as "promoting democracy". The independent States around the world wouldn't tolerate it.

Kludge
06-07-2008, 06:53 PM
This thread has been officially hijacked, by the way ;)

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 06:54 PM
This thread has been officially hijacked, by the way ;)

I don't mind :p

Dorfsmith
06-07-2008, 07:07 PM
I would not object to legally declaring 16 year olds as adults. With that comes an end to the free ride of public schooling as well (which is why it will never happen- the teacher unions would fight like mad over the possibility of losing 2 years of funding). I'd like to see 15 year olds as opposed to 17 year olds being in a position where they are actually getting ready to take on the world and making plans. At 16 they can drive, they can work- why not start getting serious about their futures? 2 years of a trade school or community college would be infinitely better than another 2 years of high school.

I think that we, as a society, keep kids from growing up. Maybe it isn't because they can't, maybe it's because we don't let them.

Very very true.

Soccrmastr
06-07-2008, 07:14 PM
I got the idea for this thread from the one about Ralph Nader wanting to change the voting age to 16. I think it should be taken a step further, and give 16 year olds the same rights and privileges as 18 year olds.
I, at 16, just got my first job at a grocery store, and as I was given a tour of the store, the amount of jobs and tasks I could not perform because of age was larger then the list of what I COULD do, which to me is outrageous. My dad said that I can't even join the union since I can't sign a contract.
As far as politics goes, I am more capable of voting then 90% of 18 year olds. Most of them don't even know who is running for President! I, in contrast, have most of my opinions and beliefs fully developed, and am completely capable of voting, signing a contract, operating machinery, and purchasing cigarettes (though I wouldn't even if I could :p)


You answer is in the question

Kludge
06-07-2008, 07:16 PM
You answer is in the question

That still leaves 90% sheep waiting to be gobbled up by the politicians of whom are 99% wolves. Our 10% needs to secede.

tnvoter
06-07-2008, 08:25 PM
We can die for our country, we can vote and decide the future of our country, but wait...

we can't buy alcohol? The feds are jerks.

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 08:26 PM
We can die for our country, we can vote and decide the future of our country, but wait...

we can't buy alcohol? The feds are jerks.

lol

bill50
06-07-2008, 08:40 PM
I think that we, as a society, keep kids from growing up. Maybe it isn't because they can't, maybe it's because we don't let them.

I've always thought the same thing. If young people are given more responsibility, they will grow up quicker. I'd also like to point out that juveniles can be charges as adults in many states for certain crimes. One of my friends that has yet to turn 21 pointed out that 18-20 year olds are second class citizens. They have all the legal responsibilities of adults, but they cannot drink. Also, the 21 year old drinking requirement is an overextension of Federal government. I believe that to avoid setting a Federal drinking age, they coerced all states into adopting a 21 year old drinking age by refusing to fund state highways if the states did not comply.

Danke
06-07-2008, 08:45 PM
I say raise it all to 21 (well, except driving). Come back and argue with me when you are much older. By then I'd bet your answer will change.

LibertiORDeth
06-07-2008, 08:48 PM
I say raise it all to 21 (well, except driving). Come back and argue with me when you are much older. By then I'd bet your answer will change.

I don't think mandy is what you would consider a child :p

Danke
06-07-2008, 08:53 PM
And let's stop comparing apples to oranges with regards to drinking.

I have lived in Europe. Driving is very different as it is much more densely populated. Most young folks use public transportation. Cars, gas, insurance is too expensive for many. Whereas in America, a lot of teens drive and many have their own cars. So the driving statistics will be much different.

jcarcinogen
06-07-2008, 09:00 PM
Since when did America want that?

1776-

crazyfacedjenkins
06-07-2008, 09:33 PM
19 is the magic age. Young people are naive.

hahahah, what a dumb blanket statement. Well if you don't know that the dumb asses who elected Bush in were naive and "old enough" to vote, you are no smarter than a 12 year old. Nice logic.

crazyfacedjenkins
06-07-2008, 09:39 PM
I say raise it all to 21 (well, except driving). Come back and argue with me when you are much older. By then I'd bet your answer will change.

What a joke

crazyfacedjenkins
06-07-2008, 09:45 PM
And let's stop comparing apples to oranges with regards to drinking.

I have lived in Europe. Driving is very different as it is much more densely populated. Most young folks use public transportation. Cars, gas, insurance is too expensive for many. Whereas in America, a lot of teens drive and many have their own cars. So the driving statistics will be much different.

Teens will drink whether the law is there or not. Wouldn't you rather have a safe place for them, as opposed to making them drive all over, to find some place to crash, while they are drunk as shit?

Dorfsmith
06-07-2008, 09:53 PM
I say raise it all to 21 (well, except driving). Come back and argue with me when you are much older. By then I'd bet your answer will change.

I'm 31 and I could not disagree more :D

Danke
06-07-2008, 09:54 PM
Teens will drink whether the law is there or not. Wouldn't you rather have a safe place for them, as opposed to making them drive all over, to find some place to crash, while they are drunk as shit?


No. What are you talking about?

Danke
06-07-2008, 09:55 PM
I'm 31 and I could not disagree more :D


So you think there should be no age restrictions for anything? Or do you have some other arbitrary age in mine?

Danke
06-07-2008, 09:56 PM
What a joke

What is a joke?

pcosmar
06-07-2008, 10:08 PM
I say make it 13. If you haven't gotten your shit together by then there is little hope you will.

amy31416
06-07-2008, 10:25 PM
Legal adult age should be 50, dammit.

Kludge
06-07-2008, 10:26 PM
Legal adult age should be 50, dammit.

Wouldn't have to worry about overpopulation then...

pcosmar
06-07-2008, 10:27 PM
Legal adult age should be 50, dammit.

OK, I'm already there. ;)

amy31416
06-07-2008, 10:33 PM
OK, I'm already there. ;)

Sweet. Can you buy me a six-pack? :D

amy31416
06-07-2008, 10:34 PM
Wouldn't have to worry about overpopulation then...

It would solve ever so many problems. (Never mind any new ones it would create ;))

jack555
06-07-2008, 11:01 PM
I don't care about how super spiffy you are. What about your classmates?


That's what I thought.

His classmates are probably about as stupid as your neighbors are ;)



I think the worst thing is that in CA the legally drunk limit for 18-20 year olds is ridiculously lower than it is for 21 year olds. Its like 1 drink and your legally drunk and will get a DUI. I think thats ridiculous. If I can be forced to serve this country I should be able to drink and they shouldnt rape my future if I drive with one drink in me.

LibertiORDeth
06-08-2008, 12:15 AM
Legal adult age should be 50, dammit.

Lol Amy, you have the most awesome posts, which is why one is n my sig. Stil need a Yongrel one for it...
Come on son make me proud ;)

leipo
06-08-2008, 08:54 AM
fact, what is the drunk driving rate in European countries? Not as high as here. Why? Because drinking is not a big deal.

The drunk driving rate is lower in Europe not because "drinking is not a big deal" over here but simply because cars are used a lot less around here (because of other forms of transportation) & the fines for drunk driving are more severe.

Truth Warrior
06-08-2008, 09:25 AM
Yeah, let's change it to whatever age the kids ( in total ) are all grown up, self supporting and responsible. :D How about 32? :rolleyes:

pinkmandy
06-08-2008, 09:57 AM
I say raise it all to 21 (well, except driving). Come back and argue with me when you are much older. By then I'd bet your answer will change.

Lol! I saw 21 twelve years ago. ;) Now I'm raising my own kids and I will try like to hell to not keep them in perpetual childhood and then when they're 18 wonder why they don't have any common sense and can't move out of my basement.

LibertiORDeth
06-08-2008, 10:37 AM
Lol! I saw 21 twelve years ago. ;) Now I'm raising my own kids and I will try like to hell to not keep them in perpetual childhood and then when they're 18 wonder why they don't have any common sense and can't move out of my basement.

+1 Refer to my thread here:
http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=58&mforum=libertyisland

TastyWheat
07-09-2008, 09:22 PM
I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to be on record about the subject.

10-year-olds can work (in show business) but they don't keep their own money because they're not responsible enough. So if 16-year-olds are still immature why do we let them work and keep their paychecks? They even have taxes taken out and have to file returns. Why are we giving them half rights here? Bottom line: if the government is taking your money you should have a say in what they do with it (i.e. the right to vote).

Truth Warrior
07-10-2008, 03:02 AM
I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to be on record about the subject.

10-year-olds can work (in show business) but they don't keep their own money because they're not responsible enough. So if 16-year-olds are still immature why do we let them work and keep their paychecks? They even have taxes taken out and have to file returns. Why are we giving them half rights here? Bottom line: if the government is taking your money you should have a say in what they do with it (i.e. the right to vote).
Ah, so you're one of those to blame for the continually growing tyranny and leviathan, since you vote. ;)