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Anti Federalist
06-06-2008, 02:13 AM
Major thread hijack, I know.

Posted by Kade:


Why The Atheists Fight

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know many of you are a religious people. I've expressed my feelings quite clearly, and if anything, you know I am eminently willing to defend my position, something that men who fight for liberty and freedom must be able to do. I have nothing against the believer. My thinking you are wrong is not a pronouncement of who or what you are, and my questioning and debating comes from a discussion of the facts and observations of politics and public cultural policy.

I think it is important that some of you take off your blinders for a second and look at the world from a different viewpoint. I'm not asking you to give up God, I'm asking you to imagine you were on our side of the fence, just for a moment.

I don't believe in conspiracies, and I don't really travel too far on the either side of the political spectrum. I do however think there is a concentrated effort to diminish religious freedom in this country, a subversion that has promised to wipe out all tolerance of non-believers or non-Christians.

Consider this piece. Written today.

Is this what you desire? This is what "Conservatives" are pushing. A bigotry and an offensive revision of history that undermines other people's freedoms. Is it that you agree that you refuse to fight this as well? or is it because you don't consider that a freedom or a natural right?

Medved goes so far as to declare a national church.

"As Constitutional scholars all point out, the Presidency uniquely combines the two functions of head of government (like the British Prime Minister) and head of state (like the Queen of England). POTUS not only appoints cabinet members and shapes foreign policy and delivers addresses to Congress, but also presides over solemn and ceremonial occasions. Just as the Queen plays a formal role as head of the Church of England, the President functions as head of the “Church of America” – that informal, tolerant but profoundly important civic religion that dominates all our national holidays and historic milestones. For instance, try to imagine an atheist president issuing the annual Thanksgiving proclamation. To whom would he extend thanks in the name of his grateful nation –-the Indians in Massachusetts?"


This is article is not unique, it is an everyday thing among the growing conservatives and theocratic media outlets. The Heritage Foundation (Townhall is the news outlet of Heritage) Worldnet Daily, The Discovery Institute, and the Culture and Media Institute among others. These organizations are massive, and they machines of revisionism and propaganda.

Can you now for a second, just imagine an OP piece that says that we should strong resist a Christian from being President?

Who is more blind? I would never in all my life say that, even if myself am a non-believer. Why is this form of bigotry acceptable?
Why is it so prevalent on these forums?

A Democrat Illinois State Senator recently just spouted to Atheist Rob Sherman during a court hearing:

"What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous . . . it's dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists!

"This is the Land of Lincoln where people believe in God," Davis said. "Get out of that seat . . . You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon."


I support Ron Paul because I don't believe he would find this acceptable. I bring up these issues because they matter, and most of you take offense, as if I were insulting your religion.

The truth is that you are blind and intolerant. You allow your fellow believers to stomp all over the rights and liberties of others because you too don't apply the same principles you stand for...

I think it is a shame. And it is relevant to the conversation and the movement.

Over 40% of people my age, between 18-29 are non-believers. We are growing. This country is going to be inherited by us, and between all the things we debate about most, there is nothing more pressing and disturbing then the persecution of non-religion over religion.

I have worked hard, as a grassroots organizer and youth leader, to maintain civility and tolerance on my side. You VERY rarely hear of the growing crowds of non-believers turning violent, writing hate speech, or saying that Christians don't belong here, or that this is a "Atheist Nation".

We have engaged the system the way it was meant to be engaged. Through debate, through forums, through media, through conversation.

This appeal to the emotional impotence of the masses from these corporations and organizations, on the backs of most of you, who stand idly by, is a disgrace.

That is why we fight. That is why we are here.

Let me say at the outset, that, even as a man of Christian faith I take a very Jeffersonian view, in that whether a man has one god, no god or twenty, I don't care, it neither picks my pocket or breaks my bones.

So I'm not here to engage in the endless roundabout that is theism v. atheism.

I'm here to ask two things: the babbling of the likes of Medved nothwithstanding, why do you (meaning atheists in general) feel threatened?

The reason I ask this is simple: it's not atheist meeting halls that are being raided by heavily armed JBTs with automatic rifles, tanks and grenades.

Waco, FLDS, Cleveland Baptist Church, 22,000 pastors on FEMA's subversion lists,native tribal church raids...I could go on, but you get my point.

It's clear that the "conservatives" you mention are not your average RP "conservative". (and let's face facts, those words no longer carry any meaning, you are faced with red state facsists, blue state communists and a small remnant of freedom folk of every stripe, their only common bond a healthy streak of anti-authoritarianism)

Can't time be better spent than trying to endlessly disprove two negatives?

Matters of faith should be simple for freedom folk: Don't force me to believe what you believe and don't force me to subsidize it.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 06:06 AM
They just tend to be a very whiney and bitchy bunch! :rolleyes:

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 06:08 AM
They just tend to be a very whiney and bitchy bunch! :rolleyes:

Atheists?

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 06:25 AM
Atheists?
No, just the one's that talk about it ALL of the time and make sure that EVERYONE knows it. :p :rolleyes:

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 06:29 AM
No, just the one's that talk about it ALL of the time and make sure that EVERYONE knows it. :p :rolleyes:

I'm still coming to terms with "baby" dinosaurs on Noah's Ark!

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 06:31 AM
I'm still coming to terms with "baby" dinosaurs on Noah's Ark!
Whatever floats YOUR boat. :rolleyes:

allyinoh
06-06-2008, 06:33 AM
Let me say at the outset, that, even as a man of Christian faith I take a very Jeffersonian view, in that whether a man has one god, no god or twenty, I don't care, it neither picks my pocket or breaks my bones.

So I'm not here to engage in the endless roundabout that is theism v. atheism.

I'm here to ask two things: the babbling of the likes of Medved nothwithstanding, why do you (meaning atheists in general) feel threatened?

The reason I ask this is simple: it's not atheist meeting halls that are being raided by heavily armed JBTs with automatic rifles, tanks and grenades.

Waco, FLDS, Cleveland Baptist Church, 22,000 pastors on FEMA's subversion lists,native tribal church raids...I could go on, but you get my point.

It's clear that the "conservatives" you mention are not your average RP "conservative". (and let's face facts, those words no longer carry any meaning, you are faced with red state facsists, blue state communists and a small remnant of freedom folk of every stripe, their only common bond a healthy streak of anti-authoritarianism)

Can't time be better spent than trying to endlessly disprove two negatives?

Matters of faith should be simple for freedom folk: Don't force me to believe what you believe and don't force me to subsidize it.

I definitely agree with what you are saying here. I pretty much take your same position (which I have bolded.) My only problem is that people talk about having the right to believe what they want and other's beliefs not being forced on them, but what they don't realize is by pushing their agenda, they are doing to Christians what they don't want done to them, but that's okay. It's a double standard.

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 06:36 AM
Whatever floats YOUR boat. :rolleyes:

Or sinks it.:D

LittleLightShining
06-06-2008, 07:20 AM
Thank you, thank you, Anti-Federalist. I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the miserable-go-round that is the atheist v. theist discussion here. I don't see how this makes a dime worth of difference in the present. The conversations don't go anywhere but they seem to satisfy both sides in their claims that the other is full of hate-mongering excrement.

Pushing "new posts" is usually like opening a present for me. What new perspective will it bring? What new proof of a government on steroids will I find to share with my friends and family? But alas, yesterday's activity was the same old bickering that goes NOWHERE.

The thing I find most interesting is that the same people who think the issues of gay marriage, abortion and religion are killing society are the same people who keep perpetuating the discussion. As far as I'm concerned none of it really matters. I don't need to know about it, it's not my business, it's not the government's business and constant fighting about these issues is distracting us from the things that need to and can be fixed.

I hope people will just shut up already and agree to disagree. The wedges keep getting sunk deeper and deeper (which is the PLAN, I might remind you) so that we are rendered flaccid in our mission which should be liberty and justice for ALL.

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 07:42 AM
Thank you, thank you, Anti-Federalist. I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the miserable-go-round that is the atheist v. theist discussion here. I don't see how this makes a dime worth of difference in the present. The conversations don't go anywhere but they seem to satisfy both sides in their claims that the other is full of hate-mongering excrement.

Pushing "new posts" is usually like opening a present for me. What new perspective will it bring? What new proof of a government on steroids will I find to share with my friends and family? But alas, yesterday's activity was the same old bickering that goes NOWHERE.

The thing I find most interesting is that the same people who think the issues of gay marriage, abortion and religion are killing society are the same people who keep perpetuating the discussion. As far as I'm concerned none of it really matters. I don't need to know about it, it's not my business, it's not the government's business and constant fighting about these issues is distracting us from the things that need to and can be fixed.

I hope people will just shut up already and agree to disagree. The wedges keep getting sunk deeper and deeper (which is the PLAN, I might remind you) so that we are rendered flaccid in our mission which should be liberty and justice for ALL.
You won't find atheists carping on about gay marriage, or the right of women to make their own choices,

Athiests don't elect idiots,

Right - wing Christians do.

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 07:44 AM
I'm the one atheist that generally stay out of these fights so I will just say that Christian led Zionism controls our foreign policy and we should all be concerned in the direction it is taking us.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 07:50 AM
I'm the one atheist that generally stay out of these fights so I will just say that Christian led Zionism controls our foreign policy and we should all be concerned in the direction it is taking us.
Who controls "Christian led Zionism", and on up to the top of the control chain? :)

LittleLightShining
06-06-2008, 07:51 AM
You won't find atheists carping on about gay marriage, or the right of women to make their own choices,

Athiests don't elect idiots,

Right - wing Christians do.You missed my point, Oz. Please show me the Christians who are pushing abortion and gay marriage. What I'm saying is that it's BOTH sides of these issues that are distracting us from the things we can change and should be working on.

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 08:02 AM
Who controls "Christian led Zionism", and on up to the top of the control chain? :)

Christians do.

Stop being a victim

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 08:07 AM
You missed my point, Oz. Please show me the Christians who are pushing abortion and gay marriage. What I'm saying is that it's BOTH sides of these issues that are distracting us from the things we can change and should be working on.

My statement stands.

Atheists in America are diddly-squat.

Christians (not all), for the most part, are hung -up on gay marriage, abortion, and war

Why not join thinking peoples?

And stop being scaredy-cats.

Over 50% of the worlds monies spent on the military is American.

Need I say more?

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 08:14 AM
Christians do.

Stop being a victim
Incorrect!

Stop being simplistically naive. :rolleyes:

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 08:15 AM
Incorrect!

Stop being simplistically naive. :rolleyes:

stop being a moronic conspiracy theorist.

We all have free will, god or not. Nobody controls you and I, so stop making excuses for the Christians that have the numbers to change course but refuse to do so.

Can I make myself any more clear?

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 08:19 AM
America was founded, to a large extent, on peoples escaping religious persecution.

Too bad you are digressing.

It used to be a joke.

But you guys own the weapons.

And it ain't so funny...

Kade
06-06-2008, 08:20 AM
I'm the one atheist that generally stay out of these fights so I will just say that Christian led Zionism controls our foreign policy and we should all be concerned in the direction it is taking us.

Wow...

Again...


QFT+1776

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 08:24 AM
stop being a moronic conspiracy theorist.

We all have free will, god or not. Nobody controls you and I, so stop making excuses for the Christians that have the numbers to change course but refuse to do so.

Can I make myself any more clear?
No, if you were correct, but you're not, merely simplistic and naive. :rolleyes:

I'm excusing no one.

Who controls the global and national "institutions"?

Hint: It ain't the Christians nor even the voters.

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 08:25 AM
Wow...

Again...


QFT+1776

thank you.

Although I'm sure you are privy to your change candidate's appeasement speach to these type of idiots. That can't sit real well with you.....

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 08:26 AM
No, if you were correct, but you're not, merely simplistic and naive. :rolleyes:

I'm excusing no one.

Who controls the global and national "institutions"?

Hint: It ain't the Christians nor even the voters.

if you don't think the voters control things, then why are you here?

to demonstrate walking contradictions?

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 08:32 AM
No, if you were correct, but you're not, merely simplistic and naive. :rolleyes:

I'm excusing no one.

Who controls the global and national "institutions"?

Hint: It ain't the Christians nor even the voters.

Hint: Who elects Presidents?

Religious right do-gooder fanatics.

Hint: Who continues to support the Iraq war? The base.

Nahh, the rest of the world is relaxed.

Any ideas of who you might attack next?

PS. Thanks for the oil prices.

Kade
06-06-2008, 08:33 AM
thank you.

Although I'm sure you are privy to your change candidate's appeasement speach to these type of idiots. That can't sit real well with you.....

:rolleyes:

No, it doesn't. But it proves what I said before, that he is someone much different than what he says, HOPEFULLY on the good side of things.

We know what McCain stands for, we have a chance to get it somewhat right.

I believe, like I imagine his campaign does, that he cannot get voted without a centrist foreign policy.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 08:37 AM
if you don't think the voters control things, then why are you here?

to demonstrate walking contradictions?
Primarily to help educate, with the facts, that the voters do not control things. :)

Yeah, I KNEW that you weren't even paying attention, just like MOST voters. :p

Hang in there "blue pill". ;)

"Everything is under control."

Sleep tight! ;)

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 08:37 AM
:rolleyes:

No, it doesn't. But it proves what I said before, that he is someone much different than what he says, on the good side of things.

We know what McCain stands for, we have a chance to get it somewhat right.

What does McCain stand for? Years of military occupation in Iraq.

Sound thinking.

Wonder when the bubble will burst?

I'm sure American taxpayers have plenty of money...

Kade
06-06-2008, 08:38 AM
What does McCain stand for? Years of military occupation in Iraq.

Sound thinking.

Wonder when the bubble will burst?

I'm sure American taxpayers have plenty of money...

ARealConservative is mocking me for being an Obama supporter, not entirely without warrant. I'm a realist. We have two choices.

constituent
06-06-2008, 08:38 AM
Primarily to help educate, with the facts, that the voters do not control things. :)

Yeah, I KNEW that you weren't even paying attention, just like MOST voters. :p

Hang in there "blue pill". ;)

"Everything is under control."

Sleep tight! ;)

srsly, enough of the jingoism.

we've all seen "V" and "the Matrix."

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 08:41 AM
ARealConservative is mocking me for being an Obama supporter, not entirely without warrant. I'm a realist. We have two choices.

Yeah well... No Ron Paul.

You guys are fucked.

Seriously.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 08:41 AM
Hint: Who elects Presidents?

Religious right do-gooder fanatics.

Hint: Who continues to support the Iraq war? The base.

Nahh, the rest of the world is relaxed.

Any ideas of who you might attack next?

PS. Thanks for the oil prices.
:rolleyes:

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 08:43 AM
:rolleyes:

You keep digging a hole, and you'll end up in China. :(

LittleLightShining
06-06-2008, 08:43 AM
Hint: Who elects Presidents?

Religious right do-gooder fanatics.

Hint: Who continues to support the Iraq war? The base.

Nahh, the rest of the world is relaxed.

Any ideas of who you might attack next?

PS. Thanks for the oil prices.Blame blame blame. What are YOU doing to educate people about the ISSUES that actually MATTER? How many people did you talk to prior to the primaries? How many people are you STILL talking to? Are you actively promoting liberty right now? How involved are you in changing the face of the base?

I guess none of that matters because you are just a victim of ideologies and have no voice, no powers of persuasion. You can't be effective enough so why not just blame the misled Christians? Because apparently they're the only people who have any influence at all :rolleyes:

Blame blame blame.... whine whine whine... borrow borrow borrow... eat eat eat... pay pay pay.... Bitch whine moan complain repeat. Welcome to the wonderful world of hopeless humanism.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 08:46 AM
srsly, enough of the jingoism.

we've all seen "V" and "the Matrix."
I find it to be a clarifying analogy of differing perspectives.

Those that know vs. those that don't really give a shit, and are clueless.

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 08:46 AM
ARealConservative is mocking me for being an Obama supporter, not entirely without warrant. I'm a realist. We have two choices.

come on - I wasn't mocking you.

well...maybe a little. :p

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 08:48 AM
Blame blame blame. What are YOU doing to educate people about the ISSUES that actually MATTER? How many people did you talk to prior to the primaries? How many people are you STILL talking to? Are you actively promoting liberty right now? How involved are you in changing the face of the base?

I guess none of that matters because you are just a victim of ideologies and have no voice, no powers of persuasion. You can't be effective enough so why not just blame the misled Christians? Because apparently they're the only people who have any influence at all :rolleyes:

Blame blame blame.... whine whine whine... borrow borrow borrow... eat eat eat... pay pay pay.... Bitch whine moan complain repeat. Welcome to the wonderful world of hopeless humanism.

I donated monies. Big time.

New Hampshire fucked me.

And I lost faith in America...

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 08:48 AM
Primarily to help educate, with the facts, that the voters do not control things. :)

Yeah, I KNEW that you weren't even paying attention, just like MOST voters. :p

Hang in there "blue pill". ;)

"Everything is under control."

Sleep tight! ;)

why educate anybody if it won't produce positive change?

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 08:50 AM
You keep digging a hole, and you'll end up in China. :(
Incorrect! The molten iron core of the Earth will slow me down a bunch. :p :rolleyes:

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 08:54 AM
why educate anybody if it won't produce positive change?
What are the other alternatives for "positive change" (so-called)?

Better a conscious slave than a happy one.

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 08:54 AM
Incorrect! The molten iron core of the Earth will slow me down a bunch. :p :rolleyes:

So you believe in Science...

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 08:55 AM
Like the planet is 6000 years old...

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 08:59 AM
Like the planet is 6000 years old...
That bogus implication is getting really old, tiresome and boring. Get a clue! :p

Kade
06-06-2008, 09:00 AM
That bogus implication is getting really old, tiresome and boring. Get a clue! :p

No, what's getting old is the platform you pretend to put yourself on above us, why don't you tell us what you think and believe, so we can properly dissect your nonsense.

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 09:03 AM
What are the other alternatives for "positive change" (so-called)?

Better a conscious slave than a happy one.

not true.

ignorance is bliss. A conscious slave will fight for his freedom - and may earn it.

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 09:04 AM
That bogus implication is getting really old, tiresome and boring. Get a clue! :p

Implication?

Clue me up!

Be careful not to step on any toes.

Especially mine...

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 09:05 AM
No, what's getting old is the platform you pretend to put yourself on above us, why don't you tell us what you think and believe, so we can properly dissect your nonsense.
Standing on a postage stamp puts me far above your usual and typical BULLSHIT!

micahnelson
06-06-2008, 09:06 AM
5 Pages. Not bad. I expected the flame war on page two.

Kade
06-06-2008, 09:10 AM
5 Pages. Not bad. I expected the flame war on page two.

This was bumped from the grave my friend... Truth Warrior is asking to be laid out rhetorically like a adolescent Savannah Lioness with a broken leg.

LittleLightShining
06-06-2008, 09:12 AM
I donated monies. Big time.

New Hampshire fucked me.

And I lost faith in America...Honestly Oz, I'm pretty disgusted with the way the campaign went. However I can assure you that it was not right-wing Christians that caused the R3VOLution to crumble. As was mentioned elsewhere it was the Zionits ;)(and Christian and Zionist are not interchangeable just as anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic are not interchangeable).

I was deflated, too. I spent an inordinate amount of time making precinct calls on my cell phone, not just reading the stupid script but actively engaging my neighbors in (sometimes hour long) conversations about the direction of our country and what issues we should be focusing on, what's important and why is Ron Paul superior than all the rest when it comes to fixing the problems.

In many ways it is America's fault, but unfortunately the blame must fall squarely on all of us because it took Ron Paul to get us motivated when we should have been paying better attention sooner and doing the things we've been doing over the last year and a half 7 years ago! Yes, there have been freedom fighters sounding the alarm all along but many of us, myself included, lacked the focus and determination to stop just talking to people we agree with about these issues and take the big step to engage those we disagree with.

All of this atheist v. Christian/theist baloney has got to stop or we REALLY have no hope. The points we agree on should be the focus, not the incidentals that really don't matter at this level.

Divide and Conquer...

Yesterday I read an article from Wired on another thread that talked about spoof political sites. The mention of paid posters who intentionally spark debate about contentious issues reminded me of this endless atheist v. Christianity crap that seems to pop up just when folks begin to rally together and discuss the future of the r3VOLution.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 09:14 AM
not true.

ignorance is bliss. A conscious slave will fight for his freedom - and may earn it. Read it again, for comprehension this time. :rolleyes:

micahnelson
06-06-2008, 09:15 AM
I want everyone to take a look at the founders...

The role of Thomas Paine will be played by Kade, Theocrat and the like can be Patrick Henry. Everyone else can jump in where you feel comfortable.

Americans found a way to pull it off back then. Can we do it again?

This isn't intended to be rude to anyone. I think most people where are very well intentioned and put America first at least in terms of politics.

Kade
06-06-2008, 09:17 AM
Honestly Oz, I'm pretty disgusted with the way the campaign went. However I can assure you that it was not right-wing Christians that caused the R3VOLution to crumble. As was mentioned elsewhere it was the Zionits ;)(and Christian and Zionist are not interchangeable just as anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic are not interchangeable).

I was deflated, too. I spent an inordinate amount of time making precinct calls on my cell phone, not just reading the stupid script but actively engaging my neighbors in (sometimes hour long) conversations about the direction of our country and what issues we should be focusing on, what's important and why is Ron Paul superior than all the rest when it comes to fixing the problems.

In many ways it is America's fault, but unfortunately the blame must fall squarely on all of us because it took Ron Paul to get us motivated when we should have been paying better attention sooner and doing the things we've been doing over the last year and a half 7 years ago! Yes, there have been freedom fighters sounding the alarm all along but many of us, myself included, lacked the focus and determination to stop just talking to people we agree with about these issues and take the big step to engage those we disagree with.

All of this atheist v. Christian/theist baloney has got to stop or we REALLY have no hope. The points we agree on should be the focus, not the incidentals that really don't matter at this level.

Divide and Conquer...

Yesterday I read an article from Wired on another thread that talked about spoof political sites. The mention of paid posters who intentionally spark debate about contentious issues reminded me of this endless atheist v. Christianity crap that seems to pop up just when folks begin to rally together and discuss the future of the r3VOLution.

Many of us don't see these debates as pointless. Our common ground is forged on them, like the early debates of this country. Many here don't have a correct frame of mind when they hear "freedom of religion"... many still believe that this country is a Christian Nation, and that truly is unacceptable to us... so these debates are very valid politically.

Kade
06-06-2008, 09:18 AM
I want everyone to take a look at the founders...

The role of Thomas Paine will be played by Kade, Theocrat and the like can be Patrick Henry. Everyone else can jump in where you feel comfortable.

Americans found a way to pull it off back then. Can we do it again?

This isn't intended to be rude to anyone. I think most people where are very well intentioned and put America first at least in terms of politics.

I'm very open to that.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 09:19 AM
Implication?

Clue me up!

Be careful not to step on any toes.

Especially mine...
ANY hard "evidence" that I'm a literal "bible believing" Christian, will do. :rolleyes:

Without it, STFU with your bogus BULLSHIT charges. :p

Kade
06-06-2008, 09:21 AM
ANY hard "evidence" that I'm a literal "bible believing" Christian, will do. :rolleyes:

Without it, STFU with your bogus BULLSHIT charges. :p

Tell us what you believe.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 09:23 AM
I want everyone to take a look at the founders...

The role of Thomas Paine will be played by Kade, Theocrat and the like can be Patrick Henry. Everyone else can jump in where you feel comfortable.

Americans found a way to pull it off back then. Can we do it again?

This isn't intended to be rude to anyone. I think most people where are very well intentioned and put America first at least in terms of politics.
I'll take TJ. :) NOT a Federalist. ;)

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 09:23 AM
Honestly Oz, I'm pretty disgusted with the way the campaign went. However I can assure you that it was not right-wing Christians that caused the R3VOLution to crumble. As was mentioned elsewhere it was the Zionits ;)(and Christian and Zionist are not interchangeable just as anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic are not interchangeable).

I was deflated, too. I spent an inordinate amount of time making precinct calls on my cell phone, not just reading the stupid script but actively engaging my neighbors in (sometimes hour long) conversations about the direction of our country and what issues we should be focusing on, what's important and why is Ron Paul superior than all the rest when it comes to fixing the problems.

In many ways it is America's fault, but unfortunately the blame must fall squarely on all of us because it took Ron Paul to get us motivated when we should have been paying better attention sooner and doing the things we've been doing over the last year and a half 7 years ago! Yes, there have been freedom fighters sounding the alarm all along but many of us, myself included, lacked the focus and determination to stop just talking to people we agree with about these issues and take the big step to engage those we disagree with.

All of this atheist v. Christian/theist baloney has got to stop or we REALLY have no hope. The points we agree on should be the focus, not the incidentals that really don't matter at this level.

Divide and Conquer...

Yesterday I read an article from Wired on another thread that talked about spoof political sites. The mention of paid posters who intentionally spark debate about contentious issues reminded me of this endless atheist v. Christianity crap that seems to pop up just when folks begin to rally together and discuss the future of the r3VOLution.

I agree with you my friend.

But, I thought the young vote would make the difference.

That is what was needed.

It never materialized. Que Sera, Sera.
Whatever will be will be.

No sentimental journey here...

yongrel
06-06-2008, 09:23 AM
Tell us what you believe.

Truth Warrior is just getting his jollies off by yanking your chain. He enjoys playing the role of "mischievous antagonist." Think of him as an internet leperachaun.

Just ignore him.

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 09:23 AM
Read it again, for comprehension this time. :rolleyes:

right back at you mr contradiction.


edit - screw it - you are clearly too stupid to get it.

the only reason a conscious slave is better is because education can bring positive change, which is why you are bothering.

Kade
06-06-2008, 09:24 AM
I'll take TJ. :) NOT a Federalist. ;)

If you are Jefferson, I am Buddha. My ass.

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 09:24 AM
Basically...

Still pissed off.

Kade
06-06-2008, 09:25 AM
Truth Warrior is just getting his jollies off by yanking your chain. He enjoys playing the role of "mischievous antagonist." Think of him as an internet leperachaun.

Just ignore him.

I like that idea, but when you ignore someone, you see when people reply to them... it's even more annoying. He needs to be called out.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 09:25 AM
Tell us what you believe.
Approx 3,000 posts, see if you can figure it out. :rolleyes: DUH!!!

HINT: I'm very consistent.

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 09:26 AM
Truth Warrior is just getting his jollies off by yanking your chain. He enjoys playing the role of "mischievous antagonist." Think of him as an internet leperachaun.

Just ignore him.

"Yanking Chains" is a good thing.

Better than being a "boring fuck."

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 09:27 AM
"Yanking Chains" is a good thing.

Better than being a "boring fuck."

QFT

yongrel
06-06-2008, 09:29 AM
I like that idea, but when you ignore someone, you see when people reply to them... it's even more annoying. He needs to be called out.

Just don't respond to him. As with many enfant provocateurs, he is only encouraged by your obvious frustration with him.

Just let it be.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 09:32 AM
If you are Jefferson, I am Buddha. My ass.
For you, Lenin! :p You got ass part, down pat.

allyinoh
06-06-2008, 09:33 AM
Many of us don't see these debates as pointless. Our common ground is forged on them, like the early debates of this country. Many here don't have a correct frame of mind when they hear "freedom of religion"... many still believe that this country is a Christian Nation, and that truly is unacceptable to us... so these debates are very valid politically.

Why do you care so much what people believe? If people believe this is a Christian nation (which I don't think it is as a Christian nation wouldn't allow the murder of 4 million unborn babies a year) why not let them believe that way? If people believe it is NOT a Christian nation, let them believe that way. To each his own. In my opinion, I don't care what you believe in as long as you leave me and my beliefs alone. I'll leave you alone.

My whole problem is that atheists want to believe how they want and don't want others to push their beliefs on them, but what is happening is that they are pushing their atheistic ideas on others.

But whatever. Eventually Christians will have to read their Bibles in private and not be able to even mention Jesus or God or anything Christianity related in public and all the atheists will be happy! :rolleyes:

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 09:36 AM
Just don't respond to him. As with many enfant provocateurs, he is only encouraged by your obvious frustration with him.

Just let it be. Thus spake the Oracle yongrel. :rolleyes:

LittleLightShining
06-06-2008, 09:39 AM
Many of us don't see these debates as pointless. Our common ground is forged on them, like the early debates of this country. Many here don't have a correct frame of mind when they hear "freedom of religion"... many still believe that this country is a Christian Nation, and that truly is unacceptable to us... so these debates are very valid politically.
I'm inclined to agree, which is why I sometimes get into these discussions, but it's hard to see the merit in participating in a spiraling down of childish insults.

What I'm trying to say (am I that hard to understand?)... Wars have been fought for millennium to try to solve these problems. It is precisely WHY the debate is so contentious-- people hold their beliefs in whatever they believe in, even believing in nothing very dearly. No one wants to be vilified and harassed and people become very defensive. Sometimes people are so defensive they take pre-emptive
measures. At any rate, the discussion benefits us now in no way except to get the heart pumping and make people feel superior.


I'm very open to that.Me, too.

The founding fathers decided that the Constitution should recognize the Creator. At the same time, they made a specific point to deny the government from mandating a particular religion. The recognition of the Creator admits that there is some greater power from which people are endowed with rights as sovereign individuals. To deny this is to admit not having read the Constitution. Without this assertion, people have no inherent rights. If it was a man or a piece of paper who endowed those rights the individual sovereignty of each citizen would have been vanquished long ago.

Because there was no public education, department of education, health department, HHS, etc. etc. the founding fathers could get around this modern idea of "separation of church and state." It was no issue. People were free locally to engage in whatever expressions the community deemed acceptable. The larger these institutions become the more need there is to accommodate all persuasions. Instead of allowing all religions to be expressed freely, some are vilified and people whose religion is to "not believe in anything" want to deny all religious people their right to free expression.

Anyway, I'm rambling now...

acptulsa
06-06-2008, 09:40 AM
What are Atheists complaining about?

The usual stuff. For as often as you drink this whine do it in memory of me...


But whatever. Eventually Christians will have to read their Bibles in private and not be able to even mention Jesus or God or anything Christianity related in public and all the atheists will be happy! :rolleyes:

Well, go quietly read Matthew Chapter Six and you'll see that this is the proper way to do it anyway.

Dr. Paul knows that. Why do you think he doesn't wear his Baptist Christianity on his sleeve like Huckabee does? He cited Matthew 6 on Bill Moyers' Journal. Now there's a good Christian...

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 09:43 AM
right back at you mr contradiction.


edit - screw it - you are clearly too stupid to get it.

the only reason a conscious slave is better is because education can bring positive change, which is why you are bothering.
Bingo! As I said. :p

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 09:49 AM
Bingo! As I said. :p

You also said that we have no control so education will do nothing.

Which is why I am pointing out your contradictory nature. I'm sure you find it is great to be on both sides of the debate position, but that doesn't mean you win - it just means you are flopping around wildly and contradicting yourself.

Kade
06-06-2008, 09:51 AM
Approx 3,000 posts, see if you can figure it out. :rolleyes: DUH!!!

HINT: I'm very consistent.

Looks like you are mostly a one-liner.

Let's quote some:


"And I don't agree with Ron on the Constitution nor the GOP"

"The universe is under no compulsion nor constraint to conform, comply nor be bound by the **** sapiens species' scientific method or logic. No moreso than it was constrained nor bound by the Neanderthal's thinking.

To know that it is, is only just supreme species arrogance."

"You're very well aware of my views on compromise."

"Brain ( physical ) is IN the body ( physical ), mind is NOT. It's metaphysical, and communicates with brain."

" Was the USA a better place to live, in many many respects, before 1913?"

" And I have lived in Oklahoma for 26 years"

"My definition of "truther" is not new. I had it long ( years ) before I even came to the RPF. It originally differentiated the "truthers" from those who take the "9/11 Commision Report", as holy writ sacred gospel, just because it came from the government. I've been through these types of "wars" before, you see. Can you tell?"

"I tend to think that mathematics is metaphysical. We just tap into it."

" Nope, the atheists just choose replacement IDOLS to worship. The state, science, evil, evolution, UN, lefty economics, "society", collectives, "cults", AGW, environment, New Age, Marx, "Humanism",..."

" Not speaking for Christians, since I am not one."

" Sorry, not a real "Paul fan" here."



Alright.... there's more, but I can work with this...

I think you use the internet like a child stalker does, and in person you are probably far less annoying, if not completely weak altogether. You don't make your positions clear at all, and tend to take what you consider the higher road by shouting down others with snippets of logic that show an almost perfect similarity to Zeno's style of formative reductio ad absurdum with a modern flare, interjected with occasional plurium interrogationum and topped with a complete disregard for Organon methodology.

I'm very familiar with your type, I specifically remember a good friend of mine, recently converted to reason, who took the sort of negated "Devil's advocacy" approach to debate.

It appears you are not a Christian by your own definition, but consider your secreted knowledge sacred. You are not an absolute Ron Paul supporter, you recognize when you are being defeated in a debate, (you resort to link backlash), and guard your quarky understanding of physics with very poor formalism. Your comprehension of what the scientific method is, is effectively nil. Your background is in new age and joke sciences.

You want more?

Kade
06-06-2008, 09:54 AM
Why do you care so much what people believe? If people believe this is a Christian nation (which I don't think it is as a Christian nation wouldn't allow the murder of 4 million unborn babies a year) why not let them believe that way? If people believe it is NOT a Christian nation, let them believe that way. To each his own. In my opinion, I don't care what you believe in as long as you leave me and my beliefs alone. I'll leave you alone.

My whole problem is that atheists want to believe how they want and don't want others to push their beliefs on them, but what is happening is that they are pushing their atheistic ideas on others.

But whatever. Eventually Christians will have to read their Bibles in private and not be able to even mention Jesus or God or anything Christianity related in public and all the atheists will be happy! :rolleyes:

Because I DO BELIEVE, that we were misled into a war because of the Christian language associated with it...

We elected a president based on his views of the "end times".

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 09:57 AM
You also said that we have no control so education will do nothing.

Which is why I am pointing out your contradictory nature. I'm sure you find it is great to me on both sides of the debate position, but that doesn't mean you win - it just means you are flopping around wildly and contradicting yourself.
Bullshit last paragraph there, "blue pill". ;)

YOU control YOUR "education", do you not?

You DO NOT control "government schooling".

Big difference! :rolleyes:

Reading for comprehension time again there. :rolleyes:

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 09:57 AM
Looks like you are mostly a one-liner.

Let's quote some:




Alright.... there's more, but I can work with this...

I think you use the internet like a child stalker does, and in person you are probably far less annoying, if not completely weak altogether. You don't make your positions clear at all, and tend to take what you consider the higher road by shouting down others with snippets of logic that show an almost perfect similarity to Zeno's style of formative reductio ad absurdum with a modern flare, interjected with occasional plurium interrogationum and topped with a complete disregard for Organon methodology.

I'm very familiar with your type, I specifically remember a good friend of mine, recently converted to reason, who took the sort of negated "Devil's advocacy" approach to debate.

It appears you are not a Christian by your own definition, but consider your secreted knowledge sacred. You are not an absolute Ron Paul supporter, you recognize when you are being defeated in a debate, (you resort to link backlash), and guard your quarky understanding of physics with very poor formalism. Your comprehension of what the scientific method is, is effectively nil. Your background is in new age and joke sciences.

You want more?
Overly verbose is not good.

I'll waste my second sentence now.

allyinoh
06-06-2008, 09:59 AM
Because I DO BELIEVE, that we were misled into a war because of the Christian language associated with it...

We elected a president based on his views of the "end times".

What do you mean the "Christian language" associated with it?

Just curious...

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 10:02 AM
Bullshit last paragraph there, "blue pill". ;)

YOU control YOUR "education", do you not?

You DO NOT control "government schooling".

Big difference! :rolleyes:

Reading for comprehension time again there. :rolleyes:

Can you even speak in complete sentences?

I really find your kind quite amusing. Anybody walking by will immediately see the poser in the debate, yet you find yourself so enlightened.

"blue pill" :rolleyes:

Unless you can bring more substance, and start writing complete thoughts, I would say we are through. Nobody is going to fall for such sophomoric style or substance.

Or you can continue playing the role of victim - it suits you.

LittleLightShining
06-06-2008, 10:03 AM
Because I DO BELIEVE, that we were misled into a war because of the Christian language associated with it...

We elected a president based on his views of the "end times".Hmmm... the war. Well he said the 9/11 perpetrators from Saudi Arabia were apparently really from Afghanistan and they were evil, oppressive men who make their women wear burqas and hate us for our freedom. I'm pretty sure he said that Iraq had WMD's and that we had to fight the terrorists over there so they wouldn't come here again.

I think Bush was "elected" because his platform was anti-Clintonian-- no nation-building, a humble foreign policy, lower taxes...

Christian language? I didn't hear any. Yes he did have the Christian-evangelical vote and for the most part they are still supportive, but they would have voted for any Republican, just like they'll vote for McCain.

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 10:06 AM
Looks like you are mostly a one-liner.

Let's quote some:

Alright.... there's more, but I can work with this...

I think you use the internet like a child stalker does, and in person you are probably far less annoying, if not completely weak altogether. You don't make your positions clear at all, and tend to take what you consider the higher road by shouting down others with snippets of logic that show an almost perfect similarity to Zeno's style of formative reductio ad absurdum with a modern flare, interjected with occasional plurium interrogationum and topped with a complete disregard for Organon methodology.

I'm very familiar with your type, I specifically remember a good friend of mine, recently converted to reason, who took the sort of negated "Devil's advocacy" approach to debate.

It appears you are not a Christian by your own definition, but consider your secreted knowledge sacred. You are not an absolute Ron Paul supporter, you recognize when you are being defeated in a debate, (you resort to link backlash), and guard your quarky understanding of physics with very poor formalism. Your comprehension of what the scientific method is, is effectively nil. Your background is in new age and joke sciences.

You want more?
< GAG! >

Nope, you got it much MORE than WRONG enough already, as expected, and ALWAYS experienced. :rolleyes:

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 10:06 AM
Hmmm... the war. Well he said the 9/11 perpetrators from Saudi Arabia were apparently really from Afghanistan and they were evil, oppressive men who make their women wear burqas and hate us for our freedom. I'm pretty sure he said that Iraq had WMD's and that we had to fight the terrorists over there so they wouldn't come here again.

I think Bush was "elected" because his platform was anti-Clintonian-- no nation-building, a humble foreign policy, lower taxes...

Christian language? I didn't hear any. Yes he did have the Christian-evangelical vote and for the most part they are still supportive, but they would have voted for any Republican, just like they'll vote for McCain.

Anti- Clintorian?

Psychobabble. Haha.

allyinoh
06-06-2008, 10:07 AM
Well, go quietly read Matthew Chapter Six and you'll see that this is the proper way to do it anyway.

Dr. Paul knows that. Why do you think he doesn't wear his Baptist Christianity on his sleeve like Huckabee does? He cited Matthew 6 on Bill Moyers' Journal. Now there's a good Christian...

I agree with you but that's not what I was talking about.

I'm talking about feeling uncomfortable saying, "God Bless you," when someone sneezes or saying, "Praise Jesus." People should never make others feel like they can't say basic things like this.

allyinoh
06-06-2008, 10:08 AM
Hmmm... the war. Well he said the 9/11 perpetrators from Saudi Arabia were apparently really from Afghanistan and they were evil, oppressive men who make their women wear burqas and hate us for our freedom. I'm pretty sure he said that Iraq had WMD's and that we had to fight the terrorists over there so they wouldn't come here again.

I think Bush was "elected" because his platform was anti-Clintonian-- no nation-building, a humble foreign policy, lower taxes...

Christian language? I didn't hear any. Yes he did have the Christian-evangelical vote and for the most part they are still supportive, but they would have voted for any Republican, just like they'll vote for McCain.

That's kind of what I was thinking. Everyone was talking about hating us for our freedoms and WMD and yadda yadda.

That's why I asked him what kind of "Christian" language specifically.

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 10:10 AM
I agree with you but that's not what I was talking about.

I'm talking about feeling uncomfortable saying, "God Bless you," when someone sneezes or saying, "Praise Jesus." People should never make others feel like they can't say basic things like this.

I can't control your feelings.

I'm sure I'm butchering the quote - and I can't even remember who it was from:

"if you go a day without being offended, someones rights were being suppressed."

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 10:12 AM
Can you even speak in complete sentences?

I really find your kind quite amusing. Anybody walking by will immediately see the poser in the debate, yet you find yourself so enlightened.

"blue pill" :rolleyes:

Unless you can bring more substance, and start writing complete thoughts, I would say we are through. Nobody is going to fall for such sophomoric style or substance.

Or you can continue playing the role of victim - it suits you.
It's a "chat room" forum Goober, not formal discourse. :rolleyes:

Whatsa matter, run out of FACTS, so I then become the topic?

Pathetic! :p

BTW, thanks for your feedback and scintillating critique. :rolleyes:

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 10:13 AM
It's a "chat room" forum Goober, not formal discourse. :rolleyes:

Whatsa matter, run out of FACTS, so I then become the topic?

Pathetic! :p

BTW, thanks for your feedback and scintillating critique. :rolleyes:

this is not a chat room goober.

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 10:14 AM
That's kind of what I was thinking. Everyone was talking about hating us for our freedoms and WMD and yadda yadda.

That's why I asked him what kind of "Christian" language specifically.

Nobody hates your freedoms.

First world countries are appalled at your steadily declining freedoms.

The beacon is fading.

Wake up!

acptulsa
06-06-2008, 10:22 AM
Nobody hates your freedoms.

First world countries are appalled at your steadily declining freedoms.

The beacon is fading.

Wake up!

You're preaching to the choir.

Yes, this bickering bunch is one united choir. We're just having this flamefest to give the enemy a false sense of security.

I hope.

Kade
06-06-2008, 11:23 AM
< GAG! >

Nope, you got it much MORE than WRONG enough already, as expected, and ALWAYS experienced. :rolleyes:

You do know that this response only compliments my insight...I hope.

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 11:34 AM
You're preaching to the choir.

Yes, this bickering bunch is one united choir. We're just having this flamefest to give the enemy a false sense of security.

I hope.

During the meantime, while you get your shit together...

You are pulling off some great mis-direction.

We get it now.

Is the joke over?

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 11:36 AM
During the meantime, while you get your shit together...

You are pulling off some great mis-direction.

We get it now.

Is the joke over?

http://www.doublespiral.org/tasteless/graphics/21/angry_cat.jpg

LittleLightShining
06-06-2008, 11:38 AM
Yikes! That's some scary feline!

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 11:40 AM
http://www.doublespiral.org/tasteless/graphics/21/angry_cat.jpg
OOOhhh. Are you going to nuke me?

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 11:44 AM
OOOhhh. Are you going to nuke me?

what meow say?

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 11:48 AM
what meow say?

Meow says:

Furrburger.

Make a furrburger purr...

With the stroke of your hand.

WRellim
06-06-2008, 12:17 PM
I definitely agree with what you are saying here. I pretty much take your same position (which I have bolded.) My only problem is that people talk about having the right to believe what they want and other's beliefs not being forced on them, but what they don't realize is by pushing their agenda, they are doing to Christians what they don't want done to them, but that's okay. It's a double standard.

But don't you see, a double standard is completely and totally acceptable when you are discussing ATHEISM. Because, you see, unlike all those religious idiots, militant evangelical atheists 100% totally KNOW than ONLY THEY have a handle on ABSOLUTE TRUTH (whereas, obviously all of the religious evangelical types only have myths, stories, and lies). And I know all of that is true because I saw this video on the internets called Zetgeist... and man, it let's you in on all of the "super secret knowledge" about the lies all of those religious types have been pushing all these years. I mean did you know that Santa Claus uses a "sleigh" only because it was copied from the Egyptian God Anus who used to drive his "chariot" through the heavens on Whoreus's birthday...ITS ALL TRUE! It's proven, scientificaligistically... the guy in the video said so.

:rolleyes:

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 12:19 PM
But don't you see, a double standard is completely and totally acceptable when you are discussing ATHEISM. Because, you see, unlike all those religious idiots, militant evangelical atheists 100% totally KNOW than ONLY THEY have a handle on ABSOLUTE TRUTH (whereas, obviously all of the religious evangelical types only have myths, stories, and lies). And I know all of that is true because I saw this video on the internets called Zetgeist... and man, it let's you in on all of the "super secret knowledge" about the lies all of those religious types have been pushing all these years. I mean did you know that Santa Claus uses a "sleigh" only because it was copied from the Egyptian God Anus who used to drive his "chariot" through the heavens on Whoreus's birthday...ITS ALL TRUE! It's proven, scientificaligistically... the guy in the video said so.

:rolleyes:

Here is a perfect example of why I try very hard to avoid these threads.

WRellim
06-06-2008, 12:21 PM
Here is a perfect example of why I try very hard to avoid these threads.

Why, can't stand the sight in the mirror?

Truth Warrior
06-06-2008, 12:58 PM
Here is a perfect example of why I try very hard to avoid these threads.
"Try very hard", just doesn't quite cut it. Try harder! It's obviously not an area nor subject of your strength, if there is one. :rolleyes:

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 01:04 PM
"Try very hard", just doesn't quite cut it. Try harder! It's obviously not an area nor subject of your strength, if there is one. :rolleyes:

I intend to!

WRellim
06-06-2008, 01:10 PM
I intend to!

But not very hard. Try harder. :)

ARealConservative
06-06-2008, 01:16 PM
But not very hard. Try harder. :)

:rolleyes:

lucius
06-06-2008, 01:34 PM
Because I DO BELIEVE, that we were misled into a war because of the Christian language associated with it...

We elected a president based on his views of the "end times".

I am in agreement with you; this is interesting & my response to Perry's 'Christian Outreach' thread. What formulated Dispensationalism, intrinsic to Christian Zionists, which places a heavy emphasis on prophecy and eschatology, the study of the "end times."

It is quite a jagged red pill: How Anglophile Zionists, such as Samuel Untermyer with Lord Rothschild from Balfour Declaration fame, used an opportunistic criminal, preacher, lawyer, who served two years in a Kansas penitentiary for forgery no less--Cyrus I. Scofield. Scofield cooked/created/imprinted a Zionist State in the 1909 Scofield Reference Bible, widely used to dupe a portion of Christian Americans who later morphed into the bloodthirsty Christian Zionists, who are the backbone supporting our current 'Christian Right' very-wrong Zionists' directed foreign policy. This book is the background 'Rosetta Stone' for this argument:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G93PNDTHL._SS500_.jpg

Product Description:

This powerful and fully documented study exposes the questionable background and faulty theology of the man responsible for the popular Scofield Reference Bible, which did much to promote the dispensational system. The story is disturbing in its historical account of the illusive personality canonized as a dispensational saint and calls into question the seriousness of his motives and scholarship. Back of Book: Almost everyone knows about the Scofield Bible. But no one before this has worked out a detailed account of the life of Cyrus I. Scofield. And yet there is such as amazing amount of material that should be known about this man that everyone who is at all interested in the dispensational system should read this book. This is a powerful book. The material is well documented. Anyone who gets this book and reads it will find here some amazing things about a man whose book is well known, but whose life we believe concerning many of its most features has been purposely concealed lest it be found to contradict his teachings. This is one of the most powerful books that has ever been written against the dispensational system. It is powerful because it shows how the book that has had the most to do with promotion of that system. The Scofield Reference Bible, originated. Here is a book that dispensationalists as well as others will do well to read. It is powerful, so powerful we dare say, that if dispensationalists would read it carefully, perhaps half of them would turn from that system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Product Details

Paperback: 406 pages
Publisher: Ross House Books; 2nd edition (October 20, 2005)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1879998440
ISBN-13: 978-1879998445
Product Dimensions: 8.6 x 6 x 1.2 inches

The Cause of Our Conflict for specific examples (http://whtt.org/show/) might not be 'your cup of tea' but is an interesting example on creating 'useful' public mythology.

http://www.whtt.org/straitgate/images/237HageeFlag.jpg

A few quotes from prominent Christan Zionist John Hagee, creator of 'Christians United for Israel', whose overriding goal is to assure that all U.S. Foreign Policy toward the Middle East be geared to "restoring Israel's Biblical borders", which is critical for Dispensationalism "end times" inculcations:

"The enemy is islamo-fascism." (he actually coined that specific term)

"As Christians we have a Biblical obligation to defend Israel and the Jewish people in their time of need."

"No Bible believing Christian can support disengagement." (Referring to the occupation of Iraq)

"The claims (to land) of the Palestinians are a historic fraud...they never owned the land...this makes them gasp for air like catfish out of water."

A good example on why history is important, leads credence to Orwell's insightful quote:

"Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."

Which tool will play the anti-semitic card first?

Ozwest
06-06-2008, 01:37 PM
God...

I love being an atheist!

Kade
06-06-2008, 01:47 PM
I am in agreement with you; this is interesting & my response to Perry's 'Christian Outreach' thread. What formulated Dispensationalism, intrinsic to Christian Zionists, which places a heavy emphasis on prophecy and eschatology, the study of the "end times."

It is quite a jagged red pill: How Anglophile Zionists, such as Samuel Untermyer with Lord Rothschild from Balfour Declaration fame, used an opportunistic criminal, preacher, lawyer, who served two years in a Kansas penitentiary for forgery no less--Cyrus I. Scofield. Scofield cooked/created/imprinted a Zionist State in the 1909 Scofield Reference Bible, widely used to dupe a portion of Christian Americans who later morphed into the bloodthirsty Christian Zionists, who are the backbone supporting our current 'Christian Right' very-wrong Zionists' directed foreign policy. This book is the background 'Rosetta Stone' for this argument:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G93PNDTHL._SS500_.jpg

Product Description:

This powerful and fully documented study exposes the questionable background and faulty theology of the man responsible for the popular Scofield Reference Bible, which did much to promote the dispensational system. The story is disturbing in its historical account of the illusive personality canonized as a dispensational saint and calls into question the seriousness of his motives and scholarship. Back of Book: Almost everyone knows about the Scofield Bible. But no one before this has worked out a detailed account of the life of Cyrus I. Scofield. And yet there is such as amazing amount of material that should be known about this man that everyone who is at all interested in the dispensational system should read this book. This is a powerful book. The material is well documented. Anyone who gets this book and reads it will find here some amazing things about a man whose book is well known, but whose life we believe concerning many of its most features has been purposely concealed lest it be found to contradict his teachings. This is one of the most powerful books that has ever been written against the dispensational system. It is powerful because it shows how the book that has had the most to do with promotion of that system. The Scofield Reference Bible, originated. Here is a book that dispensationalists as well as others will do well to read. It is powerful, so powerful we dare say, that if dispensationalists would read it carefully, perhaps half of them would turn from that system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Product Details

Paperback: 406 pages
Publisher: Ross House Books; 2nd edition (October 20, 2005)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1879998440
ISBN-13: 978-1879998445
Product Dimensions: 8.6 x 6 x 1.2 inches

The Cause of Our Conflict for specific examples (http://whtt.org/show/) might not be 'your cup of tea' but is an interesting example on creating 'useful' public mythology.

http://www.whtt.org/straitgate/images/237HageeFlag.jpg

A few quotes from prominent Christan Zionist John Hagee, creator of 'Christians United for Israel', whose overriding goal is to assure that all U.S. Foreign Policy toward the Middle East be geared to "restoring Israel's Biblical borders", which is critical for Dispensationalism "end times" inculcations:

"The enemy is islamo-fascism." (he actually coined that specific term)

"As Christians we have a Biblical obligation to defend Israel and the Jewish people in their time of need."

"No Bible believing Christian can support disengagement." (Referring to the occupation of Iraq)

"The claims (to land) of the Palestinians are a historic fraud...they never owned the land...this makes them gasp for air like catfish out of water."

A good example on why history is important, leads credence to Orwell's insightful quote:

"Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."

Which tool will play the anti-semitic card first?

Exactly. I felt most of that explanation would be above most of the people's heads here... but former Conservative spokesman and historian Kevin Phillips wrote about this very thing in his book, American Theocracy.

Truth Warrior
06-07-2008, 05:39 AM
You do know that this response only compliments my insight...I hope.
:rolleyes:

HINT #2:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/ebook/shaffer-ebook1.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer-arch.html
Same wavelength, same frequency, same attitude, we agree only ~99% of the time!
Butler just "communicates" it so much better! :) And why not? He's a teacher and writer, by profession!

:p

allyinoh
06-07-2008, 06:59 AM
Nobody hates your freedoms.

First world countries are appalled at your steadily declining freedoms.

The beacon is fading.

Wake up!

You don't have to tell me that.. lol... wow...

Like someone else said, you're preaching to the choir. I was saying that is what people were using as a reason for why we were attacked.

allyinoh
06-07-2008, 07:04 AM
But don't you see, a double standard is completely and totally acceptable when you are discussing ATHEISM. Because, you see, unlike all those religious idiots, militant evangelical atheists 100% totally KNOW than ONLY THEY have a handle on ABSOLUTE TRUTH (whereas, obviously all of the religious evangelical types only have myths, stories, and lies). And I know all of that is true because I saw this video on the internets called Zetgeist... and man, it let's you in on all of the "super secret knowledge" about the lies all of those religious types have been pushing all these years. I mean did you know that Santa Claus uses a "sleigh" only because it was copied from the Egyptian God Anus who used to drive his "chariot" through the heavens on Whoreus's birthday...ITS ALL TRUE! It's proven, scientificaligistically... the guy in the video said so.

:rolleyes:

You know, this was a very interesting thing.. Thanks. ;)

But you are right. I have a good friend who is an atheist and I love her to death but she always talks to me like she knows more, like being philosophical is sooooooooo much better than being spiritual and she's more intelligent because she follows Ayn Rand and she's philosophical and not spiritual.

I have never in my life ever told anyone that I was more intelligent than them because I was more spiritual than philosophical because I don't think intelligence is based on those things, but I seem to always be told about absolutes and ayn rand and how atheist are more intelligent due to philosophy and whatever else.

I just don't care what you believe in, whatever floats your boat floats your boat, but I take great offense in someone telling me that they are better than me because they are atheists. (Which is basically what a lot of people on this board say when they say things about the Bible)

Truth Warrior
06-07-2008, 07:51 AM
You know, this was a very interesting thing.. Thanks. ;)

But you are right. I have a good friend who is an atheist and I love her to death but she always talks to me like she knows more, like being philosophical is sooooooooo much better than being spiritual and she's more intelligent because she follows Ayn Rand and she's philosophical and not spiritual.

I have never in my life ever told anyone that I was more intelligent than them because I was more spiritual than philosophical because I don't think intelligence is based on those things, but I seem to always be told about absolutes and ayn rand and how atheist are more intelligent due to philosophy and whatever else.

I just don't care what you believe in, whatever floats your boat floats your boat, but I take great offense in someone telling me that they are better than me because they are atheists. (Which is basically what a lot of people on this board say when they say things about the Bible)

Rand true believer "cultists" can be a real bear to try and deal with, as BTW are MOST "cultists", for that matter. :rolleyes:

Theocrat
06-07-2008, 01:01 PM
But don't you see, a double standard is completely and totally acceptable when you are discussing ATHEISM. Because, you see, unlike all those religious idiots, militant evangelical atheists 100% totally KNOW than ONLY THEY have a handle on ABSOLUTE TRUTH (whereas, obviously all of the religious evangelical types only have myths, stories, and lies). And I know all of that is true because I saw this video on the internets called Zetgeist... and man, it let's you in on all of the "super secret knowledge" about the lies all of those religious types have been pushing all these years. I mean did you know that Santa Claus uses a "sleigh" only because it was copied from the Egyptian God Anus who used to drive his "chariot" through the heavens on Whoreus's birthday...ITS ALL TRUE! It's proven, scientificaligistically... the guy in the video said so.

:rolleyes:

+1

Omphfullas Zamboni
06-07-2008, 01:22 PM
What I have learned from this thread about theists and atheists:


Nobody likes being talked down to.
Nobody likes being legislated against.
Each group can feel equally threatened by the other.


It has been hectic, passionate, and interesting. Thank you.

Best regards,
Omphfullas Zamboni

Truth Warrior
06-07-2008, 01:45 PM
What I have learned from this thread about theists and atheists:

Nobody likes being talked down to.
Nobody likes being legislated against.
Each group can feel equally threatened by the other.
It has been hectic, passionate, and interesting. Thank you.

Best regards,
Omphfullas Zamboni
Some more so than others. ;)

Carehn
06-07-2008, 02:05 PM
Lord save me from your followers.

I have to say guys. I myself am a believer but i don't call myself a Christian. I find myself unfit to represent Christ. On the same token i don't go around pushing my believes on other people or vote for people that will. i think the problem is as a Christian you are suppose to let people know about Christ. i believe most people think this means force their believes on them.

I don't know what im talking about.

Truth Warrior
06-07-2008, 02:13 PM
Lord save me from your followers.

I have to say guys. I myself am a believer but i don't call myself a Christian. I find myself unfit to represent Christ. On the same token i don't go around pushing my believes on other people or vote for people that will. i think the problem is as a Christian you are suppose to let people know about Christ. i believe most people think this means force their believes on them.

I don't know what im talking about. WWJD? :)

Carehn
06-07-2008, 03:38 PM
WWJD? :)

I don't know.

Theocrat
06-07-2008, 03:43 PM
Major thread hijack, I know.

Posted by Kade:



Let me say at the outset, that, even as a man of Christian faith I take a very Jeffersonian view, in that whether a man has one god, no god or twenty, I don't care, it neither picks my pocket or breaks my bones.

So I'm not here to engage in the endless roundabout that is theism v. atheism.

I'm here to ask two things: the babbling of the likes of Medved nothwithstanding, why do you (meaning atheists in general) feel threatened?

The reason I ask this is simple: it's not atheist meeting halls that are being raided by heavily armed JBTs with automatic rifles, tanks and grenades.

Waco, FLDS, Cleveland Baptist Church, 22,000 pastors on FEMA's subversion lists,native tribal church raids...I could go on, but you get my point.

It's clear that the "conservatives" you mention are not your average RP "conservative". (and let's face facts, those words no longer carry any meaning, you are faced with red state facsists, blue state communists and a small remnant of freedom folk of every stripe, their only common bond a healthy streak of anti-authoritarianism)

Can't time be better spent than trying to endlessly disprove two negatives?

Matters of faith should be simple for freedom folk: Don't force me to believe what you believe and don't force me to subsidize it.

I find it interesting that "atheists" complain about anything because according to their philosophical views, our thoughts, speech, and actions are subject to electrochemical processes in our body (or as Richard Dawkins once said, "We're dancing to the tune of our DNA."). If that's the case, then why complain? If a Christian decides to protest abortion and same-sex marriage as evil, he's only doing what the electrochemical processes of his body allow him to. If a Muslim decides to blow up thousands of people because they won't submit to Allah, he's just acting on the chemical reactions of his anatomy. If a child rapist thinks it's okay to rape and kill 8-year-old girls, then he's only performing based on the neurons in his brain. If the "atheists" are correct, then they actually undermine morality, reason, justice, etc. because how could anyone be held responsible for his actions due to the biological/chemical makeup of their bodies? As a matter of fact, man then has no free will to do anything because everything he does is just electromechanical in essence, like a machine.

That's why I find it silly that "atheists" ridicule or get mad at people who don't share their beliefs. It just doesn't make sense, to me, for them to complain towards somebody who can't help doing what he does or believing what he believes if his whole being is comprised and controlled by impersonal processes inside himself. Yet, what do we find? "Atheists" continually rag on how religion is destroying society, how Christianity is stupid, how religion is trying to take over science, and a host of other complaints which only show how contradictory "atheists" can be. It's utterly ridiculous to complain against something which is supposedly inherent in somebody, and which he himself cannot control because if all we are are just electrochemical processes or "dancing to the tune of our DNA," then what we do and what we believe are just products of our anatomy. The 16th Century "atheist" philosopher David Hume once postulated, "You cannot derive an 'ought' from an 'is.'" Thus, on the "atheist" system, morals are eradicated, and if you don't have morals, then you can't have justice. If there is no justice, then you cannot have peace. If there is no peace, then there will be no prosperity.

In a nutshell, "atheists" believe men are nothing but biological bags subject to the laws of chemistry and physics (machines, essentially). So, then I ask again. Why complain?

Truth Warrior
06-07-2008, 03:45 PM
I don't know. OK.

WRellim
06-07-2008, 04:24 PM
I find it interesting that "atheists" complain about anything because according to their philosophical views, our thoughts, speech, and actions are subject to electrochemical processes in our body (or as Richard Dawkins once said, "We're dancing to the tune of our DNA."). If that's the case, then why complain? If a Christian decides to protest abortion and same-sex marriage as evil, he's only doing what the electrochemical processes of his body allow him to. If a Muslim decides to blow up thousands of people because they won't submit to Allah, he's just acting on the chemical reactions of his anatomy. If a child rapist thinks it's okay to rape and kill 8-year-old girls, then he's only performing based on the neurons in his brain. If the "atheists" are correct, then they actually undermine morality, reason, justice, etc. because how could anyone be held responsible for his actions due to the biological/chemical makeup of their bodies? As a matter of fact, man then has no free will to do anything because everything he does is just electromechanical in essence, like a machine.

That's why I find it silly that "atheists" ridicule or get mad at people who don't share their beliefs. It just doesn't make sense, to me, for them to complain towards somebody who can't help doing what he does or believing what he believes if his whole being is comprised and controlled by impersonal processes inside himself. Yet, what do we find? "Atheists" continually rag on how religion is destroying society, how Christianity is stupid, how religion is trying to take over science, and a host of other complaints which only show how contradictory "atheists" can be. It's utterly ridiculous to complain against something which is supposedly inherent in somebody, and which he himself cannot control because if all we are are just electrochemical processes or "dancing to the tune of our DNA," then what we do and what we believe are just products of our anatomy. The 16th Century "atheist" philosopher David Hume once postulated, "You cannot derive an 'ought' from an 'is.'" Thus, on the "atheist" system, morals are eradicated, and if you don't have morals, then you can't have justice. If there is no justice, then you cannot have peace. If there is no peace, then there will be no prosperity.

In a nutshell, "atheists" believe men are nothing but biological bags subject to the laws of chemistry and physics (machines, essentially). So, then I ask again. Why complain?

QFT.

<sarcasm style="exaggerated truth">
BUT... the atheists (actually A-moralists) could of course explain that it is just that their SUPERIOR electrochemical body processes (as a result of their more advanced DNA) are of course only "machines" in their own right... it's just that their machines are SUPERIOR to yours.

Does that explain it?
</sarcasm>

AutoDas
06-07-2008, 04:32 PM
I find it interesting that "atheists" complain about anything because according to their philosophical views, our thoughts, speech, and actions are subject to electrochemical processes in our body (or as Richard Dawkins once said, "We're dancing to the tune of our DNA."). If that's the case, then why complain? If a Christian decides to protest abortion and same-sex marriage as evil, he's only doing what the electrochemical processes of his body allow him to. If a Muslim decides to blow up thousands of people because they won't submit to Allah, he's just acting on the chemical reactions of his anatomy. If a child rapist thinks it's okay to rape and kill 8-year-old girls, then he's only performing based on the neurons in his brain. If the "atheists" are correct, then they actually undermine morality, reason, justice, etc. because how could anyone be held responsible for his actions due to the biological/chemical makeup of their bodies? As a matter of fact, man then has no free will to do anything because everything he does is just electromechanical in essence, like a machine.

That's why I find it silly that "atheists" ridicule or get mad at people who don't share their beliefs. It just doesn't make sense, to me, for them to complain towards somebody who can't help doing what he does or believing what he believes if his whole being is comprised and controlled by impersonal processes inside himself. Yet, what do we find? "Atheists" continually rag on how religion is destroying society, how Christianity is stupid, how religion is trying to take over science, and a host of other complaints which only show how contradictory "atheists" can be. It's utterly ridiculous to complain against something which is supposedly inherent in somebody, and which he himself cannot control because if all we are are just electrochemical processes or "dancing to the tune of our DNA," then what we do and what we believe are just products of our anatomy. The 16th Century "atheist" philosopher David Hume once postulated, "You cannot derive an 'ought' from an 'is.'" Thus, on the "atheist" system, morals are eradicated, and if you don't have morals, then you can't have justice. If there is no justice, then you cannot have peace. If there is no peace, then there will be no prosperity.

In a nutshell, "atheists" believe men are nothing but biological bags subject to the laws of chemistry and physics (machines, essentially). So, then I ask again. Why complain?

Nope.

atheism:a lack of belief in God or gods

Theocrat
06-07-2008, 04:32 PM
QFT.

<sarcasm style="exaggerated truth">
BUT... the atheists (actually A-moralists) could of course explain that it is just that their SUPERIOR electrochemical body processes (as a result of their more advanced DNA) are of course only "machines" in their own right... it's just that their machines are SUPERIOR to yours.

Does that explain it?
</sarcasm>

Yeah, and then we're right back to the utilitarian/authoritarian ethic of "might makes right," just as the "atheists" Hitler and Stalin instituted under their regimes.

Hiki
06-07-2008, 04:54 PM
I find it interesting that "atheists" complain about anything because according to their philosophical views, our thoughts, speech, and actions are subject to electrochemical processes in our body (or as Richard Dawkins once said, "We're dancing to the tune of our DNA."). If that's the case, then why complain? If a Christian decides to protest abortion and same-sex marriage as evil, he's only doing what the electrochemical processes of his body allow him to. If a Muslim decides to blow up thousands of people because they won't submit to Allah, he's just acting on the chemical reactions of his anatomy. If a child rapist thinks it's okay to rape and kill 8-year-old girls, then he's only performing based on the neurons in his brain. If the "atheists" are correct, then they actually undermine morality, reason, justice, etc. because how could anyone be held responsible for his actions due to the biological/chemical makeup of their bodies? As a matter of fact, man then has no free will to do anything because everything he does is just electromechanical in essence, like a machine.

That's why I find it silly that "atheists" ridicule or get mad at people who don't share their beliefs. It just doesn't make sense, to me, for them to complain towards somebody who can't help doing what he does or believing what he believes if his whole being is comprised and controlled by impersonal processes inside himself. Yet, what do we find? "Atheists" continually rag on how religion is destroying society, how Christianity is stupid, how religion is trying to take over science, and a host of other complaints which only show how contradictory "atheists" can be. It's utterly ridiculous to complain against something which is supposedly inherent in somebody, and which he himself cannot control because if all we are are just electrochemical processes or "dancing to the tune of our DNA," then what we do and what we believe are just products of our anatomy. The 16th Century "atheist" philosopher David Hume once postulated, "You cannot derive an 'ought' from an 'is.'" Thus, on the "atheist" system, morals are eradicated, and if you don't have morals, then you can't have justice. If there is no justice, then you cannot have peace. If there is no peace, then there will be no prosperity.

In a nutshell, "atheists" believe men are nothing but biological bags subject to the laws of chemistry and physics (machines, essentially). So, then I ask again. Why complain?

http://i25.tinypic.com/a10hes.gif

Anti Federalist
06-12-2008, 01:00 AM
bump, cuz I was away and unable to join in.

asgardshill
06-12-2008, 01:35 AM
Let me say at the outset, that, even as a man of Christian faith I take a very Jeffersonian view, in that whether a man has one god, no god or twenty, I don't care, it neither picks my pocket or breaks my bones.

(How does one hijack one's own thread?)

Applause. I just don't grok all the personal animosity that goes on in these atheist/theist threads. They don't feed me any less if my neighbor plays Xbox on Sunday morning instead of going to church, and they don't feed you (editorial "you"" of course) any less if I go worship on that day. (THEN play Xbox ...). My faith is my own and is probably the most uniquely personal thing about me, but I know damn well that its probably not YOUR faith.