3.5 million votes not counted in 2004 election

[DjLoTi]

What are people's thoughts here??? That's more people then the entire populations of Alaska, Wyoming, and North and South Dakota COMBINED. If only 50% of the people vote, statically that number could be doubled.

click here for both the text and video:
http://digg.com/politics/Greg_Palast_Has_Roves_Missing_Emails

*edit* I would like to mention that's only what evidence can prove, and we only pick up shredded evidence..... thank you from me........

we all know consistence......

[Bradley in DC]

Not appropriate on a forum trying to get Dr. Paul elected. Please realize we need to present ourselves as credible.

[DjLoTi]

This topic is under "General Politics and Other", and I think THREE . FIVE MILLION PEOPLE not having their votes counted ( when *I* am in the majority of those people ) a pretty big deal

a pretty big deal

i support ron paul

but i guess you don't support my post enough to care about my inability to support a politician.

Thanks for *your* support.

[Bradley in DC]

We're all here discussing ways to get Dr. Paul elected. First things first, we have to get him on the ballot in the primaries, etc. or NO ONE will be able to vote for him.

As a former election official, I guess I'm pretty skeptical of the premise of your post, yes.

[DjLoTi]

If you watch the video you will see the story plz if you're not updated I just saw it for the first time 2 hours ago.

[DjLoTi]

According to the plans. Read it .... watch it.... take time..... it's real. I know .

Same idea entirely new topic

What you think about THAT?

[CurtisLow]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6802228062297352475

A Must Watch Video!!!

[Tin_Foil_Hat]

Not appropriate on a forum trying to get Dr. Paul elected. Please realize we need to present ourselves as credible.

Questioning the validity and mechanisms of the election process does not put one's credibility in question, does it?

I heard Palast on the radio earlier this week and have his book on order. I don't see what is wrong in hearing what he has to say.

[DjLoTi]

Greg Palast: 2004. And in 2006 and 2004, they challenged tens of thousands of black soldiers. They stopped their votes from being counted when they were mailed in from Baghdad. Go to Baghdad and lose your vote -- mission accomplished.

BuzzFlash: How did they do that?

Greg Palast: By sending letters to the homes of soldiers, marked "do not forward." When they came back undelivered, they said: Aha! Illegal voter registered from a false address. And when their ballot came in from Fallujah, it was challenged. The soldier didn’t know it. Their vote was lost. Over half a million votes were challenged and lost by the Republicans -- absentee ballots. Three million voters who went to the polls found themselves challenged by the Republicans. This was not a small operation. It was a multi-million dollar, wholesale theft operation.

They’re right that I’m a British reporter, because I put this story on British TV, not on American TV, which won’t touch it. [BuzzFlash note: Palast writes for British papers and reports on the BBC, but he is a product of the San Fernando Valley and the University of Chicago, 100% American.] But our election was a complete, total fraud. This is grand theft -- no question. It’s not a dirty trick; it’s a felony crime.

I’m working with Bobby Kennedy, who is a voting rights attorney. He said, “This is not just an icky, horrible thing that people do wearing white sheets. This is a felony crime.” [paraphrase] And the guy they put in charge of this criminal ring to knock out voters is a guy named Tim Griffin. Today, Tim Griffin is -- badda-bing -- U.S. Attorney for Arkansas. When they fired the honest guys, they put in the Rove-bots to fix the 2008 election. That’s what I’m saying -- it’s already being stolen, as we speak. Tim Griffin is the perpetrator who’s become the prosecutor, and that’s what’s going down right now.

[Suzu]

Let me add my recommendation to watch the google video on this. And tell your friends.

[DjLoTi]

*removing my post*

[DjLoTi]

I live in NW Florida, and this is what I told them (to cause reactions) --

"I wanted to see how many people were 3 million people. You know. Just curious.

I added all the people in (according to census 2005) -

Escambia County, Florida
Santa Rosa County, Florida
Okaloosa County, Florida
Holmes County, Florida
Jackson County, Florida
Bay County, Florida
Calhoun County, Florida
Walton County, Florida
Liberty County, Florida
Gulf County, Florida
Franklin County, Florida

Which also includes cities as:
Destin, Pensacola, and Panama City

But this *still* wasn't nearly enough people.

So I decided to go west. 15 million people in FL, over 5 million people in Miami, so I figured by the time I'd get to NOLA I'd probalby have 3 million people. (You'd think, right?)

The further I went west, the longer the list became.

Mobile County, Alabama
Baldwin County, Alabama
Jackson County, Mississippi
Harrison County, Mississippi
Hancock County, Mississippi


The entire Alabama and Mississippi gulf coast border. Including cities such as Mobile, Biloxi, Pascagolua, Daphne, and Gulfport.

But the list still isn't enough

So I got to St. Tammany Parish, Louisiana. It said it only had about 191,268 people. I thought NOLA was bigger then that (for sure) so I kept going southwest, trying to stay to the border of the coast.

Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. Yes, it claims to be "the suburbs of New Orleans". 455,466 people. I was satisfied I covered New Orleans decently enough.

It added up to 2,517,808 people. I still had 500,000 people to go if I wanted to reach 3 million. So I added Tallahassee, the capitol of Florida.

2,517,808
+
255,500
=
2,773,308



2,562,723 people live in these 4 states.

Wyoming, Alaska, North Dakota, and South Dakota."

And BTW, if you live in any 4 states, I'd say this is a safe and easy way to start a conversation.

(lol) ..

[DjLoTi]

This is a plea from me to you to read all of the information here. I've told my people, please, tell your people as well.

[DjLoTi]

I've decided that if I tell 3 million people, I'll be satisfied enough to stop talking about it.

After I meet the 3 million people who lost their votes. :)

[CurtisLow]

rgr on that!!! *I salute you* Get the word out!

[kylejack]

We're all here discussing ways to get Dr. Paul elected. First things first, we have to get him on the ballot in the primaries, etc. or NO ONE will be able to vote for him.

As a former election official, I guess I'm pretty skeptical of the premise of your post, yes.
Intercepted Rove e-mails (remember all the ones that nobody can find?) included caging lists as attachments. Letters were mailed to the homes of soldiers asking them to confirm that they live at that address. Since they were in Iraq and Afghanistan, the letters were returned non-deliverable. Every letter returned got invalidated on the voter rolls.

The men and women dying for this war were systematically eliminated from the voter rolls.

How were the e-mails intercepted, you ask? Someone other than the president and his men owns georgewbush.org. Tim Foster, Rove's man, CC'ed his e-mails to the wrong address, bdoster@georgewbush.org instead of bdoster@georgewbush.com. The e-mails were passed along to Greg Palast, reporter for the BBC. The subject of the e-mails is "Re: Caging" and the Excel file attached had names of millions of voters.

Vote caging is illegal, a felony under the Voter Rights Act of 1964.

This story is HUGE.

[Brandybuck]

This is a plea from me to you to read all of the information here.
I've read it. Now where are those fricking emails dammit! It's beyond pointless to yap about damning evidence, if you can't produce that evidence!

Publish those damned emails, all 500 of them, along with evidence that they're genuine, or shut the hell up!

p.s. Voting irregularities happen. Sometimes they're even deliberate. But this conspiracy Palast is trying to push is ludicrous. Rove is evil, but he isn't an idiot. He knows the entire world will be looking at the 2008 vote through microscopes. Scrubbing three million votes through such diffuse and untransparent methods is not something he would rationally do.

p.p.s. If Ron Paul loses the election, I'm not going to blame Rove, the media or the establishment. I'm going to blame conspiracy mongers like you for marginalizing him!

[Suzu]

I've read it. Now where are those fricking emails dammit! It's beyond pointless to yap about damning evidence, if you can't produce that evidence!

Publish those damned emails, all 500 of them, along with evidence that they're genuine, or shut the hell up!


*****

Here they are (http://2004.georgewbush.org/deadletteroffice/)

*****

ETA: Pay particular attention to the ones with "Caging.xls" files attached. Open the .xls files and check some of those addresses. One that appears repeatedly is 1658 Kings Rd, Jacksonville FL. That could be one of the homeless shelters mentioned by Palast.

[Brandybuck]

*****

Here they are (http://2004.georgewbush.org/deadletteroffice/)

*****
Sorry, but that is unsufficient. I have no way of knowing if they are genuine, or just another "fake but accurate" creation. But even if they are real, they were published before the 2004 election. Why did we not hear about them until now? There are a couple of messages that say "caging", and might possibly be construed as referring to vote caging. But they only have 1800 or so names. Where does the 3.5 million votes come from? Claims that even more will be stolen in 2008 is unsubstantiated. Neither can I find anything about attorneys being fired to make room for more compliant operatives. This is a house of cards built on pure supposition.

Focus on Ron Paul!

[Suzu]

Sorry, but that is unsufficient. I have no way of knowing if they are genuine, or just another "fake but accurate" creation. But even if they are real, they were published before the 2004 election. Why did we not hear about them until now? There are a couple of messages that say "caging", and might possibly be construed as referring to vote caging. But they only have 1800 or so names. Where does the 3.5 million votes come from? Claims that even more will be stolen in 2008 is unsubstantiated. Neither can I find anything about attorneys being fired to make room for more compliant operatives. This is a house of cards built on pure supposition.

Focus on Ron Paul!

You went through the whole thing a lot quicker than I have. I'm not even halfway through it yet. There are bunches of CSV files too.

I am going to examine it in full, and research it more thoroughly, because if what Palast says is true, then barring strong opposition and prosecution, it WILL be tried again and DOES have the potential to cost RP the presidency.

[DjLoTi]

You went through the whole thing a lot quicker than I have. I'm not even halfway through it yet. There are bunches of CSV files too.

I am going to examine it in full, and research it more thoroughly, because if what Palast says is true, then barring strong opposition and prosecution, it WILL be tried again and DOES have the potential to cost RP the presidency.

Absolutely true. If the claimed facts are actual facts (which according to the GOP is 'accurate') this is bigger then ever.

Didn't you see where Palast said if he's wrong he'll get sued?

Palast claims the GOP acknowledges it as actual fact. What more evidence do you need?

He can't tell a lie. He'll go to jail. If you listen to his speech you'll find out why.

[Suzu]

Absolutely true. If the claimed facts are actual facts (which according to the GOP is 'accurate') this is bigger then ever.

Didn't you see where Palast said if he's wrong he'll get sued?

Palast claims the GOP acknowledges it as actual fact. What more evidence do you need?

He can't tell a lie. He'll go to jail. If you listen to his speech you'll find out why.

It usually takes a while for things to sink in with me. Unless I'm mistaken, there must be some "incriminating emails" in Palast's possession which either do not appear online, or I have not found online. I'll keep looking for those. Did he say they're in the latest edition of Armed Madhouse?

[DjLoTi]

I believe all 500 emails are in the report. It's primarily 'investigative reporting', which seems to happen on CSI, but for this, it's been days... weeks.... in the process. We still just keep pushing.

We still keep learning.

[Suzu]

I believe all 500 emails are in the report.

What report?

[DjLoTi]

I'm sorry, it only showed a partion of the emails. not all 500. We should demand that immediately. Lets photocopy them all!

Or send them in emails....

I am corrected that the 500 emails have not been released. My badd :)

[Lois]

Do you have a link to the Google video you're referring to? The one posted at the beginning of the thread doesn't work.

[Suzu]

Do you have a link to the Google video you're referring to? The one posted at the beginning of the thread doesn't work.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3954858769441262005

[Bradley in DC]

This story is HUGE.

Lots of stories are huge. I'm just not convinced it furthers our cause of getting Dr. Paul elected. We need to keep our eyes on the ball and focus our energies appropriately. That's my concern.

[DjLoTi]

I simply could not comprehend how you're downplaying the alleged facts that 3 million people

Or, 4 entire states

Now, you may say that 3 million people is only 1% of the population (It was claimed back in October of 2006 we had 300 million people... including illegal immigrants)

Ok

So downplay *this* little factoid.

The size of Alaska, Wyoming, and North and South Dakota IN LAND MASS

IS 25% OF THE ENTIRE SIZE OF THE UNITED STATES

Make you feel more safer? This is an issue which should be immediately addressed.


You could also say that only about half Americans voted in 2004, so you could statically double the number '3 million' to better reflect the actual impact of the fixed elections.

Dude that *is* the story right now, weather you like it not... *that's* the real issue right now man.. Right now


I'm ready for Ron to take our country back. I'll be ready for 1%. I can't wait for 24.444%

Really. I can't wait. That's all I gotta say.

[kylejack]

Lots of stories are huge. I'm just not convinced it furthers our cause of getting Dr. Paul elected. We need to keep our eyes on the ball and focus our energies appropriately. That's my concern.

Do you not see the implications it has for our cause? What if the same is done to disenfranchise Ron Paul voters, even as early as the primaries?

[joenaab]

BradleyinDC, I'm not trying to get in your face here, I want to understand where you're coming from. Quick question:

Do you believe that vote counts and or voter registration lists were manipulated in anyway in the 2000 and 2004 elections? I'm asking mostly about Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, but this would apply to many other states and many other offices than the President. Could you explain you thoughts?

I believe the odds that election fraud will be employed to stop Ron Paul should he become a viable candidate are 100%. This campaign has millions of "eyes" with more joining each day. We are each drawn to our own issues and projects within the campaign, so why discourage some from studying this issue?

[Bradley in DC]

BradleyinDC, I'm not trying to get in your face here, I want to understand where you're coming from. Quick question:

Do you believe that vote counts and or voter registration lists were manipulated in anyway in the 2000 and 2004 elections? I'm asking mostly about Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, but this would apply to many other states and many other offices than the President. Could you explain you thoughts?

I believe the odds that election fraud will be employed to stop Ron Paul should he become a viable candidate are 100%. This campaign has millions of "eyes" with more joining each day. We are each drawn to our own issues and projects within the campaign, so why discourage some from studying this issue?

I believe the overwhelming majority of the problems in Florida in 2000 were a result of voter error. Voting instructions were clear on use of the butterfly ballot and to remove all hanging chads before turning in your ballot.:p

Regarding Ohio, and this is sensitive to me, there is no problem there. I was born and raised in Ohio (family has been there nearly 200 years). I was twice elected (precinct captain) to the Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Republican Party Executive Committee. I have worked on many local campaigns (from Ken Blackwell's Congressional race in 1990, I think, to running flushing projects, to managing state rep and county judicial races) and federal campaigns in Ohio (both Forbes for President campaigns where I was a delegate candidate for him the first time and taking my vacation time off from Rep. Ron Paul's office the second time) through state Rep. Tom Brinkman's unsuccessful :mad: primary campaign to unseat incumbent Congresswoman Jean Schmidt. Many times I served as an election official there working the polls. I'm friends with Board of Election officials there who are competent, responsible people.

After Forbes didn't get the nomination in 1996 :( , I came to DC and worked full-time simultaneously at a Republican media company from 10 am to 6pm and a Republican polling company from 6 pm to 2 am (and I worked overtime at both jobs the last two weeks of the election).

Unlike LA, NY, IL, TX and other states with long histories of voting manipulation, Ohio has a good process in place and has for as long as I've known of. Manufactured allegations of injustice in Ohio a la Barbara Boxer are self-flagellating denial that most Ohioans voted for Bush over Kerry.

Now, having vented, I'll try to address the question: linking Ohio (which has very well run elections) and Florida (no comment) offends me; just because election outcomes are close does not otherwise make them similar. I do not think vote totals in Ohio were manipulated. I think counting scratches on a ballot by visual observation in Florida manipulates vote totals; agree on the process BEFORE the election and then follow it. There is a good reason Ohio didn't have the post-voting circus.;)

I do not think there was any procedural problem with Ohio registration lists nor any major problems there. Federal intervention on provisional balloting caused some confusion but was handled appropriately (forcing people to go to their respective polling station, eg, is not voter suppression). We had good systems in place prior to the Feds getting involved, they work, they followed them.

Florida, IMHO, does not run their electoral processes as well as Ohio regarding voting lists as best as I can tell. Here, to the best of my knowledge, the greatest problem is the application of the felony voter problem (non/ex-felons being denied voter registration or unfairly being struck from the rolls, felons on the voting rolls).

No worries about getting in my face. I've been through this process a lot--and we're on the same side here.

My biggest problem with this forum is that it may be used against Dr. Paul in the election with the opposition quoting heated posts calling for illegal behavior or reinforcing the conspiracy nut image they are trying to force on him. I'm motivated by trying to get him elected POTUS and protecting him as best I can to get there.

Sorry for being a bit long winded, but you asked where I'm coming from.

Here's a constructive challenge: everyone here should register as poll workers. Seriously, the average is, what, 97? These people voted in the Ike v Sen. Taft election! There is a great need for (younger, more tech knowledgable) people to work the polls. A better education of how the system actually works would dispel many of the myths--and working the polls would provide the people needed to keep the system working well.

[Bradley in DC]

Oh, and I should add that I've voted by absent ballot in US elections from four countries without any problem (US, Colombia, Chile and Canada).

Having this discussion ON A RON PAUL forum is all downside risk and no upside risk in our efforts to get Ron Paul elected President, IMHO.

[Brandybuck]

Palast claims the GOP acknowledges it as actual fact. What more evidence do you need?
I need more than just "claims". Claims are not evidence.

[DjLoTi]

I need more than just "claims". Claims are not evidence.

Because he said it happened, it must be true. Here's why.

Because he works with a news story in the UK, if he's wrong, he'll be sued and jailed. That's a pretty good defense that he's telling the truth. Since this is a major government scale illegal operation ( which would be illegal to lie about and say ' oh, i have government papers ' )... he MUST be telling the truth or he'd be fired and he'd be jailed.

[Brandybuck]

Because he works with a news story in the UK, if he's wrong, he'll be sued and jailed.
There is still such a thing as freedom of the press. That freedom has been gnawed on a bit in recent years, but it still exists. He might possibly be sued to libel, but that's iffy. He definitely won't be arrested.

To reiterate, one muckracking reporter making a claim is not evidence.

[DjLoTi]

The UK doesn't have the first amendment like we do. And I'm pretty sure it's illegal to make claims about overthrowing the government or talk about confidential government documents without being legally challenged in some way or another.

All a reporter would have to do is contact the government to confirm or deny the accusation. There have been multiple reports from different journalists, so I imagine if it wasn't true, someone would disprove the allegation.

[Brandybuck]

The UK doesn't have the first amendment like we do.
Now you have gone off the deep end! The UK is not the US! One ends in a 'K', one ends in an 'S'! Reporting on voting irregularies in the US will not get you arrested in the UK!

If the Republicans (a US party) stole three million votes in 2004, then why did the Democrats win all across the board? And if they attempt the same in 2008 to stop Paul, are they going to steal votes from their own party? None of it holds together. Yes, there has been some voting irregularities here and there. On both sides. But something this massive would have the mainstream media all over it. Even the embarassment factor alone for it massive backfiring would be enough to get this plastered on every front page across the continent!

[Bradley in DC]

There have been multiple reports from different journalists, so I imagine if it wasn't true, someone would disprove the allegation.

I'm not sure if it's true or not, but "multiple reports from different journalists" is not a standard of truth. If you take a second to think about that, I'm sure you too can think of lots of examples to disprove that logic. To be charitable here, it may just be that the verifiable story is premature (not necessarily false). Sometimes it takes time for the truth to come out (eg, Bush's illegal wiretapping).

[DjLoTi]

I mentioned the UK because Greg Palast works for the BBC in the UK, however he is an American.

[Brandybuck]

I don't believe that Karl Rove can get the US to pressure the UK into arresting a US citizen for something published in the UK press. But even if you do, it's insane to consider this string of what-ifs to be concrete evidence of massive vote stealing.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but this discussion has devolved to a pointless state. I'm outa here.

[AgentSmith]

As a former election official, I guess I'm pretty skeptical of the premise of your post, yes.

:D dude give it up, everyone knows it was fixed.

[SeekLiberty]

Questioning the validity and mechanisms of the election process does not put one's credibility in question, does it?

I heard Palast on the radio earlier this week and have his book on order. I don't see what is wrong in hearing what he has to say.

No it doesn't put anybody's credibility in question. Good for you! ... I've ordered his book "Armed Madhouse" too. There's absolutely nothing is wrong with hearing what he has to say!

Quite the contrary, when you consider what Josef Stalin (former Soviet Union dictator) said:

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything".

... It might behoove one to know what's going on in our election process ... especially when we hear Ron Paul say we're moving towards a military dictatorship!

This issue could prove quite important as to whether Ron Paul rightfully gets elected. So it's certainly not a subject one should try to quell or ignore!

When you're grounded in truth, one can stop worrying about what others think.

Some here are too paranoid, IMO. Does anybody think Ron is worried about what others think about what he says? It's his "tell it like it is" honesty that makes him so compelling and likeably different from most politicians.

[SeekLiberty]

I don't believe that Karl Rove can get the US to pressure the UK into arresting a US citizen for something published in the UK press. But even if you do, it's insane to consider this string of what-ifs to be concrete evidence of massive vote stealing.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but this discussion has devolved to a pointless state. I'm outa here.

Happy Trails! <grin>

Again, words of wisdom from "Uncle Joe" ... "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything".

It's a philosophy still very relevant today ... especially for an administration that's leading us into a military dictatorship, and an "American Republic [that] is in REMNANT status" (Ron Paul's words).

So I don't consider a concern and discussion about massive vote stealing pointless whatsover. I suggest one reads the book "Armed Madhouse" for themselves and reach their own conclusion.

[angelatc]

Now you have gone off the deep end! The UK is not the US! One ends in a 'K', one ends in an 'S'! Reporting on voting irregularies in the US will not get you arrested in the UK!

If the Republicans (a US party) stole three million votes in 2004, then why did the Democrats win all across the board?

You're thinking of 2006.