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dude58677
06-04-2008, 07:44 PM
It rests on several premises:

1) The preamble to the Bill of Rights states that the Bill of Rights were created to restrict further acts of abuse of power and misconstruction of power.

2) The ninth amendent states that the Constitution shall not deny people unenumerated right to disobey unconstitutional laws and supreme court rulings by government and thus shall not deny the people in the process to interpet the Constitution.

3) The ninth amendent shall not deny a juror or jurors to interpret and rule on the Constitution or rule according to their conscience.

4) The text of the Constitution states that the 16th amendment does not use the term "direct tax" but only states an unapportioned indirect tax on incomes. Even if it was a direct tax on income, the people still have a ninth amendment right not to pay for programs that are unethical or unconstitutional.

Kludge
06-04-2008, 07:54 PM
Why we have to pay taxes:

1) If we don't, we'll be imprisoned for life.

dude58677
06-04-2008, 07:57 PM
Why we have to pay taxes:

1) If we don't, we'll be imprisoned for life.

That is why we have to find ways to work under the table. We can't even let the government know we are working.

The other thiing is that we need to educate people about jury nullification. Just spread this message in my OP to as many people as you can.

dude58677
06-04-2008, 09:27 PM
Why we have to pay taxes:

1) If we don't, we'll be imprisoned for life.


PS, also don't go around saying that "we don't have to pay taxes" then you make the government sound like the master. Just say the "Constitution prohibits direct individual taxes."

jake
06-04-2008, 09:33 PM
That is why we have to find ways to work under the table. We can't even let the government know we are working.

The other thiing is that we need to educate people about jury nullification. Just spread this message in my OP to as many people as you can.

the problem with this is that is illegal too (meaning there are consequences if you are caught, disagree with the act itself or not)

PlzPeopleWakeUp
06-04-2008, 09:36 PM
nt

dude58677
06-04-2008, 09:37 PM
the problem with this is that is illegal too (meaning there are consequences if you are caught, disagree with the act itself or not)

Again, it is called jury nullification. USE IT!!

Danke
06-04-2008, 09:38 PM
Just say the "Constitution prohibits direct individual taxes."

Correct. Income taxes are indirect taxes.

dude58677
06-04-2008, 09:39 PM
Make your cash while you can. ;)

Game over pretty soon though.

The key is to find liberty-like minded people who are small business owners and work for them and don't fill out ANY employment forms. When finding these people, use your imagination.

Danke
06-04-2008, 09:44 PM
the problem with this is that is illegal too (meaning there are consequences if you are caught, disagree with the act itself or not)


More than likely it is not. Nearly all taxable income is reported via a w-2, 1099 or K1, so it would not therefore be "under the table."

dude58677
06-04-2008, 09:51 PM
More than likely it is not. Nearly all taxable income is reported via a w-2, 1099 or K1, so it would not therefore be "under the table."

Screw the forms. The forms themselvfes are unconstitutional and you don't want to play into the establishments hands. You also have the ninth amendment right not to fill out any IRS forms. Best thing to do is not let them even know you are working at all. Just don't fill out ANY forms of any kind.

PS, if this fails, jurors still have the ninth amendment right to jury nullification.

Danke
06-04-2008, 10:03 PM
Screw the forms. The forms themselvfes are unconstitutional and you don't want to play into the establishments hands. You also have the ninth amendment right not to fill out any IRS forms. Best thing to do is not let them even know you are working at all. Just don't fill out ANY forms of any kind.

PS, if this fails, jurors still have the ninth amendment right to jury nullification.

Certainly, you don't have to fill out any forms. For instance, no law require using a 1040. But if you want the money withheld from you returned, it is readily accepted. But you could use a substitution, probably delay any refund.

Taxable income comes from privileged activities, so the 9th Amendment will not get you very far with a jury.

fr33domfightr
06-04-2008, 10:12 PM
Instead of fighting the government about having to file or not having to file, I say we just change the fricken constitution.

Repeal the 16th amendment!!!

Everyone I know hates the IRS. It should be very easy. Why can't we start a petition?

FF

dude58677
06-04-2008, 10:19 PM
Certainly, you don't have to fill out any forms. For instance, no law require using a 1040. But if you want the money withheld from you returned, it is readily accepted. But you could use a substitution, probably delay any refund.

Taxable income comes from privileged activities, so the 9th Amendment will not get you very far with a jury.

I didn't just mean tax forms I also meant job forms, anything that connects you to the employment. You can't even let the government even know you are working at all.

Ther are a couple of arguments with the jury:

1) Constitution prohibits direct income taxes.

2) You have the ninth amendment right to not pay for unethical and unconstitutional programs.

TXcarlosTX
06-04-2008, 10:22 PM
YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY TAXES VIA U.C.C Title 26 Section 7806B


Ok this is what it says.....

TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE SERVICE.

Section 7806. Construction of Title.

(a) Cross references. The cross references in this title to other portions of the title, or other provisions of law, where the word "see" is used, are made only for convenience, and shall be given no legal effect.

(b) Arrangement and classification. No inference, implication, or presumption of legislative construction shall be drawn or made by reason of the location or grouping of any particular section or provision or portion of this title, nor shall any table of contents, table of cross references, or similar outline, analysis, or descriptive matter relating to the contents of this title be given any legal effect. The preceding sentence also applies to the sidenotes and ancillary tables contained in the various prints of this Act before its enactment into law.




Ok this is what it means...

26 USC 7806(b) says that Title 26 is not the law. In other words, "No inference, implication or presumption of legislative construction shall be drawn or made by reason of the location or grouping of any particular section or provision or portion of this title..." N.B. "legislative construction" means "law."



Ok now here is some case law...

1. Location or grouping of section

Fact that 26 USCS Sec. 4161(a) is located in part of Code dealing with recreational equipment and sporting goods is of little significance in determining applicability of tax to lures used in commercial fishing since Sec. 7806 provides that nothing is to be inferred from grouping or indexing of any particular section. Nordby Supply Co. v United States (1978, CA9 Wash) 572 F2d 1377, cert den 439 US 861, 58 L Ed 2d 170, 99 S Ct 182.

rathskeller
06-05-2008, 12:13 AM
So don't pay your taxes. But don't come crying to us when you go to jail. Because hte amendment was ratified, and hte law has been upheld many many times. Just becuase some high school kid like yourself misinterprets the consitution does not mean it IS unconstituional.

And how DARE you call the good Doctor Paul an idiot! He says the tax law is valid. If he didn't think so, then he wouldn't want to repeal it.

But honestly, don't pay. Go to jail. The world will not lose a productive member of society.

rathskeller
06-05-2008, 12:15 AM
That is why we have to find ways to work under the table. We can't even let the government know we are working.

The other thiing is that we need to educate people about jury nullification. Just spread this message in my OP to as many people as you can.


Ju8ry notification is not going to work. Here is what you don't understnad...the VAST majority of people are not on your side with this. Most don't like paying taxes. But nearly ALL people (the intelligent ones, I mean) know that it is the law, and it necessary. This notion that everyone agrees with you is hilarious.

asgardshill
06-05-2008, 12:20 AM
Golly, when did they put Internet access in Federal prison?

dude58677
06-05-2008, 05:39 AM
So don't pay your taxes. But don't come crying to us when you go to jail. Because hte amendment was ratified, and hte law has been upheld many many times. Just becuase some high school kid like yourself misinterprets the consitution does not mean it IS unconstituional.

And how DARE you call the good Doctor Paul an idiot! He says the tax law is valid. If he didn't think so, then he wouldn't want to repeal it.

But honestly, don't pay. Go to jail. The world will not lose a productive member of society.

1) The preamble to the Bill of Rights states that the Bill of Rights were created to restrict further acts of abuse of power and misconstruction of power.

2) The ninth amendent states that the Constitution shall not deny people unenumerated right to disobey unconstitutional laws and supreme court rulings by government and thus shall not deny the people in the process to interpet the Constitution.

3) The ninth amendent shall not deny a juror or jurors to interpret and rule on the Constitution or rule according to their conscience.

4) The text of the Constitution states that the 16th amendment does not use the term "direct tax" but only states an unapportioned indirect tax on incomes. Even if it was a direct tax on income, the people still have a ninth amendment right not to pay for programs that are unethical or unconstitutional.


Of course the ninth amendment also says you have the right to be close minded.

dude58677
06-05-2008, 05:46 AM
YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY TAXES VIA U.C.C Title 26 Section 7806B


Ok this is what it says.....

TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE SERVICE.

Section 7806. Construction of Title.

(a) Cross references. The cross references in this title to other portions of the title, or other provisions of law, where the word "see" is used, are made only for convenience, and shall be given no legal effect.

(b) Arrangement and classification. No inference, implication, or presumption of legislative construction shall be drawn or made by reason of the location or grouping of any particular section or provision or portion of this title, nor shall any table of contents, table of cross references, or similar outline, analysis, or descriptive matter relating to the contents of this title be given any legal effect. The preceding sentence also applies to the sidenotes and ancillary tables contained in the various prints of this Act before its enactment into law.




Ok this is what it means...

26 USC 7806(b) says that Title 26 is not the law. In other words, "No inference, implication or presumption of legislative construction shall be drawn or made by reason of the location or grouping of any particular section or provision or portion of this title..." N.B. "legislative construction" means "law."



Ok now here is some case law...

1. Location or grouping of section

Fact that 26 USCS Sec. 4161(a) is located in part of Code dealing with recreational equipment and sporting goods is of little significance in determining applicability of tax to lures used in commercial fishing since Sec. 7806 provides that nothing is to be inferred from grouping or indexing of any particular section. Nordby Supply Co. v United States (1978, CA9 Wash) 572 F2d 1377, cert den 439 US 861, 58 L Ed 2d 170, 99 S Ct 182.


Don't cite statutes or court cases, just cite the text of the Constitution. There is no judicial supremacy in the text and you don't want to play into the hands of the establishment. There is too much jargon for them to confuse everyone and that is what they want. It is best to cite the ninth amendment and the preamble to the bill of rights because that is what severewly restricts government power.

dude58677
06-05-2008, 05:50 AM
So don't pay your taxes. But don't come crying to us when you go to jail. Because hte amendment was ratified, and hte law has been upheld many many times. Just becuase some high school kid like yourself misinterprets the consitution does not mean it IS unconstituional.

And how DARE you call the good Doctor Paul an idiot! He says the tax law is valid. If he didn't think so, then he wouldn't want to repeal it.

But honestly, don't pay. Go to jail. The world will not lose a productive member of society.

Ron Paul didn't say it was valid in the movie "Freedom to Facism". On top of this he compares people to don't pay taxes to Martin Luther King.

Also since the RP revolution began there are many more people who are questioning the income tax.

Fyretrohl
06-05-2008, 05:58 AM
Let's see...Pre 16th Amendment, Supreme Court rules that the Federal Government had no authority to tax income. 16th Amendment passed. Supreme Court THEN rules that the 16th Amedment gave the Federal Government no new taxation authority. Regardless of other courts ignoring this decision, has the Supreme Court EVER ruled otherwise since that second decision? I have not been able to find it, if they did.

dude58677
06-05-2008, 06:02 AM
Let's see...Pre 16th Amendment, Supreme Court rules that the Federal Government had no authority to tax income. 16th Amendment passed. Supreme Court THEN rules that the 16th Amedment gave the Federal Government no new taxation authority. Regardless of other courts ignoring this decision, has the Supreme Court EVER ruled otherwise since that second decision? I have not been able to find it, if they did.


The people under the ninth amendment and the preamble to the bill of rights both say that we can interpret the Constitution and the ninth amendment protects our right not to pay for unconstitutional programs.

werdd
06-05-2008, 06:06 AM
So if you go to court over income tax fraud, and use the income tax is illegal defense, they cannot prove that you have to pay the income tax, but since you used goverment programs and did not pay you stole from the goverment?

That's my best understanding, remember the wesley snipes trial?

dude58677
06-05-2008, 06:11 AM
So if you go to court over income tax fraud, and use the income tax is illegal defense, they cannot prove that you have to pay the income tax, but since you used goverment programs and did not pay you stole from the goverment?

That's my best understanding, remember the wesley snipes trial?

We have to educate people on jury nullification.

Danke
06-05-2008, 07:43 AM
Let's see...Pre 16th Amendment, Supreme Court rules that the Federal Government had no authority to tax income. 16th Amendment passed. Supreme Court THEN rules that the 16th Amedment gave the Federal Government no new taxation authority. Regardless of other courts ignoring this decision, has the Supreme Court EVER ruled otherwise since that second decision? I have not been able to find it, if they did.

No, just particular types of income. The 16th Amendment was passed to clarify that they if fact could tax those incomes that the Pollock case had ruled unconstitutional. Because it was not a direct tax, but in fact an indirect tax. That is why later Supreme court cases ruled that the "16th Amendment gave the Federal Government no new taxation authority." The limitations the Constitution places on the Federal government to tax has not change since it was originally written, except for direct taxes, we count Indians and don't count 3/5 of slaves.

We have had the income tax since the Civil War. Just a portion of it was ruled unconstitutional and that was remedied by the 16th Amendment.

Danke
06-05-2008, 07:54 AM
Ju8ry notification is not going to work. Here is what you don't understnad...the VAST majority of people are not on your side with this. Most don't like paying taxes.
True the vast majority of people are "not on your side..." Just like the vast majority of people don't know about Ron Paul, and if they did, more than likely they would still vote for Obomber or McSame.


But nearly ALL people (the intelligent ones, I mean) know that it is the law, and it necessary.

Here I have to disagree. Nearly ALL people don't understand the income tax laws. That is one reason people have a hard time winning tax cases with a jury trial. Especially when you see how the screen during the jury selection process.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-05-2008, 08:29 AM
It rests on several premises:

1) The preamble to the Bill of Rights states that the Bill of Rights were created to restrict further acts of abuse of power and misconstruction of power.

2) The ninth amendent states that the Constitution shall not deny people unenumerated right to disobey unconstitutional laws and supreme court rulings by government and thus shall not deny the people in the process to interpet the Constitution.

3) The ninth amendent shall not deny a juror or jurors to interpret and rule on the Constitution or rule according to their conscience.

4) The text of the Constitution states that the 16th amendment does not use the term "direct tax" but only states an unapportioned indirect tax on incomes. Even if it was a direct tax on income, the people still have a ninth amendment right not to pay for programs that are unethical or unconstitutional.

At best, the greater power that the people have at the national dinner table has to be limitied to that of mediators between the master class and the slave class.
This not only gives the people the power of the purse but establishes their spending from it as unquestionable.
In other words, the 16th ammendment doesn't just bind the people to pay off a debt which they are responsible for as the greater power, but it frees them from having to pay off the legal counterfeit created by the lessor power of tyranny.